For what instrument and purpose, exactly?
Is 10 the maximum number of courses?
Thx,
E.C.
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Do it again and this time throw in a few more. Sounded damn good to
me. Better yet- EDIT some bloopers in! Wouldn't that be what's called
reverse engineering?
I forgot to say, I threw in a few bum notes just to keep everybody happy
Martin
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My wife just got me two new shirts, new socks, a wool vest and hat
for the recent birthday I just suffered. And a bottle of 2nd best
Oban. So while losing out on the better/younger aspect of playing, my
looks and wardrobe are now second to none. For a while.
Dan- older, worser, but bravely
An avant-garde ex-rock guitarist I work with told me just two days
ago that he would rather give a mediocre live performance than put
out a great CD. (And I happen to own a fine CD that he put out a few
years ago.)
Dan
Live music is great!
A typical classical music CD has 800 edits, a
A question for the players of standard modern classical guitar on
this list (I am on no other)- I have not played classical guitar (nor
owned one) since 1975, so don't even know what e-list, forum or
whatever to consult.
Can any of you tell me if there are editions of the collected guitar
My thanks to all who have responded so quickly helpfully. Looks
like I will be in touch with the Villa-Lobos Museum very soon.
Dan
http://www.villalobos.ca/node/1217 and
http://www.stanleyyates.com/articles/hvl/hvl.html
will surely be of interest to you.
Concerning the
Yes- Earl of Salisbury's Pavan- which I think is also sometimes
attributed to Byrd. (Or Byrd wrote one of his own by that name?).
And dt mentions the Italian ground- which I also used to play off
the keyboard score some years ago; as I remember it fits on the lute
perfectly. A 9 or 10 course
He wrote keyboard solos (Fitzwilliam Virginal book no doubt
others); but chiefly known for vocal consort stuff. Do you mean
actual lute solos? I've only seen a couple of guitar transcriptions
from the 20th century- any old lute intabs (such as were done with a
few of Byrd's keyboard pieces)
Me three- but lute 'n voice also works for me because of the live-in
soprano who always seems to be in my life. One of her favorite songs
by these composers as well...
For me - solo lute (If you'd ever heard me sing, you wouldn't have to ask)
Joseph Mayes
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And a dozen iPhones = 1 gross of metronomes. There is a composition by
Gyorgi Ligeti, Symphonique for 100 metronomes - an experimental work,
literally what it says on the box.
There are also a dozen very good metronomes for iPhone in the free
to $3 range.
dt
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And another Big (String) Spender (I just dropped a $$$ wad on Dan
Larson for long overdue strings for my vihuela archlute) welcomes
this news. I had heard- never tried it out- that the old
dead-bone-white nylgut could be dyed by Rit dye, of all things. Don't
know if it would affect the
One of my lute students recommends the Dr Beat metronome. They have
three models.
http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/products/en/DB-60/index.html
Neat - I love it!
Ned
On Sep 18, 2010, at 10:23 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote:
Check this out.
http://www.rhythmsource.com/demo/
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820
Check this out.
http://www.rhythmsource.com/demo/
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I have another take on this. Study slowly and precisely. Streamlining
the motion of both hands. In other words, know what the fingers do,
get rid of superfluous movements and work on muscle memory. Slowly,
don't speed up. Don't fall into the trap of studying your mistakes.
Chop the runs into
An appeal to the collective wisdom-
Is there anyone on the list who could suggest any ballpark
parameters for pricing a Herb Hendrickson lute from the mid 1970's?
This is an 8 course, largish (63.4 mm SL) tenor lute, immaculate
condition, finely made- but with a string clearance of only 4 mm
And another question for the collective-
Has anyone tried the Aquila type DE copper overspun lute strings?
They are supposed to be closer in sound to the loaded gut basses than
the regular type D, but it seems that I cannot get them in the USA-
would have to negotiate directly with Mimmo, at
Just recently I tuned up at the dress-rehearsal at noon, and I
didn't have to tune 7hrs later for the actual concert.
Long live carbon.
RT
Hear hear, here! I just had a gig that would have been lute tuning
hell (St. Mark's Lutheran, San Francisco) if my archlute had been
dressed in gut for the
Arto-
Some instruments can tolerate, and will respond to synthetics better
than others; I am particularly lucky with my archlute- nylon 1st
2nd, carbon for 3, 4, and 5; and almost tolerable copper overspun
basses. low tension (I follow Toyohiko Satoh's recommendations) and
careful touch are
And what a pleasure for those of us in the San Francisco Bay Area to
meet our friend Ed Durbrow in person. He brought with him a fine
little 8 course lute (who was the luthier?) that is going to gut; and
he has composed two beautiful settings of poems by Shakespeare; I
forget where they are
Just for comparison with the cello strings- a close up of my vihuela,
7th course fundamental D, (a = 409) 1.52 mm. First generation loaded
gut from Mimmo Peruffo. 6th course G, one string is a Dan Larson
Pistoy, 1.39 mm. (Had to use a gimp for the unison, all that was
available when I could no
Sun Ra, of course.
http://missioncreep.com/mw/sunra.html
World - I challenge any musicologist or casual fan to demonstrate a piece of
music that didn't originate on our world.
Eugene
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Pythagoras would say Music of the spheres?
Those would be the fat ladies; it ain't over 'til they sing. Maybe,
these days, they shouldn't.
On 29 Mar 2010, at 21:23, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
Since we seem to have drifted a fair distance from string tensions,
you've
omitted what I find
Great thread- thanks, guys. These are the two gems that I will try to
remember:
The result is that certain historical instruments perform a scholarly
disappearing act because the terminology has been regularized.
There is so much 20th century baroque performance practice (I
No worse than Melchior Neusidler. But that's already bad enough. I
actually got one of them nailed down about 95%, years ago- must dig
it out now, and have another go at it.
I don't know about the Leclair, but I found the Bach partitas for
violin which I didn't know I had- tried the d-minor
PARALLEL UNISONS!
-But very nice anyway. Four strings is all you need, with enough talent.
Thanks, Val.
I commit a non-orthodox and non-hip version of Lachrimae Pavan, using
the arrangement by Jamie Holding. Purists, please, don't watch...
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Hello Martin,
I can't address the theorbic implications, but I am very interested
to see that first bit, where i does a single, selected rest stroke in
order to play the course it comes to rest on following the m stroke
is exactly what I've been doing on the d-minor Baroque lute in many
but I await word from the experts...
And the experts have spoken! When the rubber of canon meets the road
of practice, things seem to get a little muddy. DvO I hear the
third on the 4th quarter being held into the fifth. and Stewart
but the treble moves to b flat (d1)before moving to the E
And the lautenverse owes you another hearty Thank you - I have been
considering how to get some of my students into a graceful way to
start reading pitch notation; you know, music. This is good.
Dan
Every Tuesday I have the pleasure of playing through the two-part
inventions of Bach
First part of the answer: I'm not Nigel North ;-)
Nigel is playing thumb out, which does enable the middle-index finger
runs at high speed a bit easier. I can play middle index runs fairly
well thumb in, but not as fast, easily- or naturally- as thumb out.
The eternal conundrum of which way to
Ron-
Thank you again for another great gift to the lute list community!
Dan
Hello Graham:
You'll find the version you seek posted on our website in pdf form.
http://editions.mignarda.com/downloads.html
The divisions probably are by Dowland - I don't especially care whose
somehow I have a blind spot: I still dont see the fifths!).
I think going from the last chord in the first measure (low open G,
still providing bass note from 3rd beat with open 2nd course d)
-moving to first chord of 2nd measure, E-flat b-flat e chord. G-d to
E-flat-b-flat are parallel
And another fascinating character was Joseph de Bologne,
Carribean/Afro-French musician and martial artist, but thoroughly
Euorocentric, culturally. A hell of a story, though.
Joseph de Bologne, the Chevalier de Saint-Georges, was one of the
most remarkable figures of the 18th
Getting very interesting- I now remember (it was so long ago) when I
got my first lute from the builder (Hugh Gough, NYC, 1973 approx.) he
instructed me in the double fret method, not super thin but certainly
thinner than today's typical singles- he also advised wetting them
for a minute in
On the other hand, they were also not blissfully sitting still all
the time- a contemporary account of the great Pietro Bono describes
his playing as ...Storming from the very bottom to the top of the
lute's range... and other words suggestive of the technical level of
a Joe Pass or Django
A corruption of the original Acadian
What is truly amazing is the matched set of
baroque accordians which presumably were the
basis for the Cajun accordion, the originals now at Tulane.
d
And let us not overlook the precursors of the baroque accordian,
the renaissance harmonica and
Do it twice!
HEY! It's the SINGLE frets that ain't HIP - look at that damn picture
again- (you know, the one with the boreless Oboe Muto) Is there any
known historical information about single frets? Maybe Mace mentioned
them? Don't want to make trouble- just askin'
Dan
Honestly, it
David Van Edwards has of course nailed the lute perfectly- there is a
picture of one being played about 1/3 way down on this page (Brief
history of the lute, part 3) from his website, between the Des
Moulins 11 course and the better known double headed Dutch lute.
It's down at the bottom, next to what appears to be a plate on edge;
dangerously close to the parsnips. It appears that the bell is of a
different wood than the body; and on the whole it somewhat resembles
an extraordinary oboe played extraordinarily well by Gonzalo X. Ruiz
a few weeks ago-
Maybe it's both (Emergency at the oboe players house- Honey, could
you stop practicing for a minute and come grind this garlic?)
Oboe? I'd think pestle mortar :)
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Damn it, I want to see Gonzalo's oboe again. The last time we had
parsnips they were much too tough, and the finger holes didn't help a
bit.
I think David was kidding about the oboe (hence the :) sign). The
objects Dan describes do not resemble any oboe da caccia I've seen.
The
No reason parsnips and woodwinds can't get along:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpfYt7vRHuY
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Maybe one more hour on simmer, and a few shakes from the cyanide jar
Nancy spotted.
Bon Apetit! :(
Funny- I do have a dentist appointment in one hour!
-Dan
I don't think an oboe da caccia would be any easier on your teeth,
but I suppose it would depend on how you cook it.
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Beneficial ..Absolutely! Often? -Ouch! I should have fewer
instruments, or more free time. But the worse they get, the more you
appreciate it when you finally do change those funky, ratty old
frets. It really does get easier to change frets the more often you
do them. When is an
Count 'em again, folks- I'm counting 7 courses on the main pegbox.
Treble rider, and 12 more pegs. I've got three courses- 6 pegs on the
extension, the bottom one looks like a darker wood replacement
(ebony?) -So we have a 10 course. There is a Dutch picture of a young
man playing one of these
Another possibility- performers, (like their listeners) are human;
therefore fallible- they are not going to bat everything out of the
park every time up to bat- and listeners are also human (therefore
fallible) and will have different subjective responses. For that
matter, the recording
Bill,
Yes - that is the company. Thanks so much re-posting it; but I did
indeed see a different video, one specifically for electric guitars.
This is far more relevant, and the drop distance more realistic than
the four or five floor drop for the solid body electric so I'm still
very
Thank you, Nancy. Excellent, relevant recent information. Important
that it is post Christmas. Seems to be a don't ask, don't tell
Least said, soonest mended etc. type of modus operandi. That's how
it worked with my old, small vihuela in about 2005 going to the
Amherst event from S.F. Bay area
Speaking of silk (There is no evidence of such strings in Europe)
Nevertheless, I have finally managed to put two of Alexander Rakov's
silk strings on a lute- the 1-f and 2-d on my Baroque lute. (I had to
wait for the current guts to degrade sufficiently- once the silk was
in the house, the
Hi Chris-
This is getting interesting. (Thought we had put this one to bed
already, but never mind). Some explaining- Last things first; My arch
lute IS a little strange. The pictures from photobucket that I have
linked below of course do not give the history or the specs, but at
least we can
Howdy folks. I just re-read my last e-rant to the lute list,
answering Chris Wilke's last post. It was a silly overreaction to his
interesting, but over-analyzed critique of my stringing, motives
pertaining thereto, and why I would consider my archlute strange. I
really apologize for my
(Note that, in addition to his researches into historical strings,
he is also one of our leading makers of synthetics!)
And thank God for that. I've bought far more type D and Nylgut (and
now also have his apparently more gut like type DE copper overspuns
on order) for my strange archlute,
Seven years is minimum. I have a tin peanut brittle box with old and
newish gut strings- used unused- going back to the late 1970's. The
Ancient Gutpile- authentic gut strings that the old (and aging) lute
players used to use way back in the 20th century.
The way to go is to go all the way.
There was a fellow, name of Andres Segovia I believe, followed
himself all over the world breaking gut treble strings regularly on a
guitar. Finally wound up in the caring hands of Rose and Albert
Augustine and a pile of raw nylon from Dupont. Didn't change his
repertoire or instrument, and he
Anthony-
that's amazing- HIP concerns mattering as lately as the 1920's. I had
a customer at the music store yesterday looking for HIP Beethoven; we
didn't have anything on hand but at least the Busch Quartet had a
sound that seemed closer, but I don't know the details of their
equipment.
I
You should have warned me forty years ago.
Caveat Emptor.
RT
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Dan,
Are synthetic strings close to the sound of old guts? Dunno. Are
modern guts any closer? Dunno.
Let's call the whole thing off.
Chris
Well, Chris, I still advise reading Mimmo Peruffo's web page, The
Lute in it's Historical Reality, at least for the information
assembled by a truly
Agree completely. Never meant to sound like the HIP fuzz, and as I
mentioned earlier, only two of my instruments are gutted. And as
Chris Wilke observed, it's modern gut- how close the the real deal is
at least somewhat speculative.
Dan - Off to work now.
It's a shame that this point has
I think Joe is just going with his gut.
(I know the sound better part is only an opinion, but the
only-an-opinion thing hasn't seemed to slow down the gut advocates.)
Respectfully,
Joseph Mayes
Like some of the rest of us, I've been following the double-track
path of getting the best gut
Yeah, he sure can- it was pleasure to hear live; thanks for posting this.
Dan
Years ago, I did some work with solo oboe which was fun but too loud.
This guy can play like a cornetto:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBSYUfXn0PI
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You really have the feel for this style. Very nice. And of course,
the gut sounds better. A lot better. My Baroque lute and vihuela are
in gut, and switching to the archlute (carbon, nylon, and copper
wound basses- Satan's Strings!) the feel is positively slimy. The
damn thing still sounds
This is the fingering I sent to Leonard. Any thoughts, improvements? Is
it clear?
__
In the 4th measure, 2nd beat, prepare by fingering the c-a with the
index finger, then the d-f with either index sliding up to d or
My old 8 course had two big, loud, bright yellow MYSTERY SPOT
stickers on its case. The Mystery Spot is a small area near Santa
Cruz, Ca. with gravitational/magnetic anomalies that turned into a
tacky (but still scientifically interesting) tourist location. I have
never taken anyone else's
The thing I find extremely puzzling in the 'awful lot of paintings' you
mention is that, for late 16th and almost all 17th century examples,
there is a nearly uniform depiction of a thumb-out technique, which is
also described clearly in written sources. With one exception, nearly
Taco-
Martin of course has nailed it all down as authoritatively as anyone
in the business could, combining as he does, the triple threat
polymath combo of performer, builder, and scholar.
One of the most beautiful 11 course lutes I ever saw a picture of had
a doubled 2nd course. I forget
A number of ergonomic subtleties here- very dependent on individual
hand/finger/thumb configurations, what lute- shape, size relative to
the player, holding position, stringing- for universal hard fast
rules (beyond the obvious relating to thumb-index diminutions not
damping the next course
It is not inappropriate to mention here that David practices (and
performs) what he preaches. I had the good fortune to hear him in
concert with the great Baroque oboe player Gonzalo X. Ruiz last
night. If my aging vision serves, I saw him really whanging out all
the low diapasons on his
raise the cultural tone of his new venue by sticking a lute player in
bottle-flinging range.
I hope that is a metaphor. I thought that only happened in Blues
Brothers movies.
Oh no. Such places exist, fortunately it didn't reach that point in
my case. Verbally delivered constructive criticism
Many years ago, one of our famous colleagues
gave a concert at Carnegie Recital Hall in New York, and one of our
other learned colleagues* accosted him afterwards in the green room,
launching immediately into a detailed critique of everything he did
wrong, that could be
know how it sounds. If anyone
really wants it, email me off list.
Dan
I think Schäffer's CD is re-issued on CD
(http://www.amazon.com/French-Baroque-Suites-Reusner-Conradi/dp/B029VU)
A great recordung which I would like to recommend wholeheartedly
Thomas
Daniel Winheld schrieb
Ah yes, deconstructive criticism, delivered with the kindest of
intentions- If this sincere critic is being slanderously
misunderstood; he should respond, set the record straight, and hugs
all around. It's a small world, after all- and it's that
tunnel-vision vehemence which seems to gather
I have a very unconstructive commentary to David and Jean-Marie, you
both are holding your lute on the wrong side !
This is actually a point of serious interest. Normally, watching
someone of opposite hand/eye orientation do a familiar task is
disorienting, (at least on the immediate
Ed Martin has learned quite a bit about the multiple Conradis- and
has recorded them as well. Perhaps he will weigh in here on this,
unless it was already dealt with and may be in the archives.
Dan
I didn't know Conradi's music so thanks for sharing these beautiful pieces.
I'd love to hear
And of course the fine rendition by the late Michael Schaffer of the
A major suite on his recording of French Baroque Lute Suites, which
was available on CD, don't think it's still in print, but used copies
may be available. Definitely a must have.
Dan
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820 Colusa Avenue
A prettty outlandish set of tastini at
No, not at all. Very standard slantini. They were tried
unsuccessfully on the Orpharion, fantini, I believe.
Very good performance, too. Thanks!
Dan
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Check out the others- I like the Purcell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63VLgP-sezQfeature=related
VIII. Leonardo Leo: Manca sollecita / Simone Kermes
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Danny-
Bravo! Very satisfying videos. I'm with Ed Martin on this; I much
prefer the 11 course in gut, although they both sound very good. It
reminds me of my own 13 course, which is mostly gut, while your 13
course shares some of the tonal qualities of my archlute, which is
all synthetic
Even a liuto forte would not pass the lituus test. Happy New Year! -Dan
It's lituus ad not Liuto.
Andreas
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This place might be worth checking out. Next time I'm in Chinatown
for dim sum I will. Some years ago I went there and discovered that
Erhu bows don't work for bass viols; I had forgotten about that place
since then.
http://www.clarionmusic.com/
Ron- That is Rakov, not Batov? I would be very
Thanks everyone. Hope to make contact with Rakov in regard to silk
strings.
Playing from the Siena Ms. on my last pair of gut trebles this
morning- (doubled first on my Chambure copy vihuela) during the
gentle haze of a happy holiday hangover is a most poignant moment on
this
For guitarists, ex-guitarists, occasional guitarists, and lutenists who care-
And especially for those of us for whom repertoire, timbre,
temperaments vis-a-vis matters guitaristic are of concern, check out
this guy. I have listened to a few of his CD's at the music store
where I work, some
I am a lutenist who does have a satisfactory
guitar- a 7 string, steel-string instrument that
at least gives a suggestion of Orpharion timbre
and is flexible enough to be re-tuned to Bandora
intervals. Wonderful change of tone color; only
problem is that ET makes it sound out of tune
to my
And considering the average lifespan, it's a miracle that as much
culture and civilization as there was seems to have prevailed. We are
wrestling with a heritage left to us by world of underage alcoholics.
This certainly explains a lot.
Dan
Actually there is evidence of the opposite.
Before
Time for another series of your lute seminars. Plenty more Damilano
wine where that first bottle came from. They also do a Barolo.
That is exactly right. Any recreation of music would have to have
been semi intoxicated.
d
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Ah, Roman- the happy optimist shows his face! The glass is at least
half-full of cheap Italian red, the stuff that courses through my
veins.
Dan
Average lifespan implies that anyone surviving infancy had a
reasonable shot at dying of plague at the age of 99, like Titian.
RT
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You mean Chaconne a son mauvais gout.
Ever played the Chaconne a Son Gout?
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Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto Forte? (I must have
been out of the office for this one)
thanks, Dan
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Well- if you have to be stuck in an office job, you've got one of the
better ones. Not as funny as The Office but much easier on the eyes
and especially the ears. Jeez, what a dress code!
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Such a sad, and disgusting situation. It's pathetic where the
so-called priorities seem to lie. This is cultural devolution of
the worst kind, and will have actual consequences- I can relate
personally; as a young guitar student many decades ago, visiting
family friends in London on my way to
My archery mentor actually prefers moving targets. But that takes us
OT because his archery is of the Hun Mongol tradition, not European
Mediaeval/Renaissance. There is no bagpipe season here in California,
anyway. Maybe in the UK?-Dan (Once attempted a duet with a real
Highland Bagpiper
The connection between single malt scotch theorboes has me
concerned. Those of us limited to regular lutes should double our
malts at the octave. Especially at this time of year.
He's currently building me a theorbo, which should be ready soon. Let me
know if you do end up in this corner of
I can third that motion. Mel has rescued four of my instruments over
the years to varying degrees- from a side crack in a vihuela (for
bottle of Italian red wine) to a transfiguration of my 10 course lute
into a small archlute.
If David still has some of that special Oban on hand, that alone
Also highly recommend David Tayler.
Dan
Hi Steven,
I would recommend the person I studied with, who is in Berkeley and
who is also on this list - Dan Winheld. Note that I studied with
Dan as a total beginner. Not sure which level you are at, but Dan
comes with a hearty recommendation.
Throwing this out here; - OT music, OT instrument; but relevant RH
technique especially for those of us concerned with late Renaissance
thumb-out (or sometimes up).
Jody Fisher is a highly accomplished professional jazz guitarist I met
some years ago- what I find fascinating here
And just one more, also from the 60's
Black Night is Falling; Charles Brown
So how does this compare to Paint It Black by the Rolling Stones?
I think it was ergot in the Renaissance. In the 60s... ; )
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All that stuff is well and good. Actually, it's magnificent,
important, and the best course of study if you are planning to
expound this song to a college audience.
For me personally, all I ever needed was the bare song itself.
Between difficult times in my life- including a touch of
Now we're getting somewhere. David O.- are the Funeral Teares
(including that 2nd verse to In Darkness.. easily googleable, or
Wikie'd? Or is there some especially good source where one can find
them?
A side note esp. regarding Dowland's settings- frequently the
underlay is problematic after
Thank you David. Tom's recommended website- also very helpful- is a
hoot, and also worth checking out
http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/funeral/index.htm
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Daniel Winheld
dwinh...@comcast.net wrote:
Now we're getting somewhere. David O
Human speech is like a cracked kettle on which we tap crude rhythms
for bears to dance to,
while longing to make music that will melt the stars.
-Flaubert
Another possibilty is that both poems are based on an unknown
antecedent which may or may not have the extra verses.
Really nice. Beautifully sung played. Thanks for the link, Roman.
2 Moravian folk-songs set by Janacek with an archlute (played by
Jindrich Macek). Just gorgeous-
http://www.loutna.cz/cz/sluzby-koncerty-moravska-lidova-poezie.aspx
Enjoy!
RT
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Any explanations? Or am I so ignorant that I am not worth a serious answer?
Franz, you are perfectly worthy- but this worthless correspondent was
at work today and did not get home until after 9:00 PM, PST. As to
the question, firstly we have to know what Arab music was like at the
time the
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