[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Miles Dempster]

If I were to string-up Magnus’ double-strung diapasons, I wouldn’t bother with 
octaves on the 7th (and probably 8th) course. At that length (130cm) and pitch 
they will sound bright enough. - just string them in unisons.

Miles




> On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Martin Shepherd  wrote:
> 
> Sorry I didn't make myself clear.
> 
> When thinking about English theorbo, I was thinking about the viability of 
> the lowest basses (at say 130cm).  On a typical swan-neck lute, the lowest 
> course would be tuned to AA at a likely pitch of around a'=392 and be perhaps 
> 99cm long, so this might be a better comparison.  This comparison suggests 
> that the 130cm bass on the theorbo would be fine.
> 
> The other issue is whether the 7th course octave is too thin to be viable (I 
> can imagine a diameter of about .70mm for the low octave, but that implies 
> .35mm for the high octave).  I've temporarily lost my string calculator, but 
> Martyn Hodgson's estimate of .34mm seems reasonable.  But .34mm is at least 
> 20% thinner than the smallest diameter that we think the Old Ones could have 
> made (we could be wrong about this, but even if such a string could be made 
> it is hard to imagine it being any use for anything, as Matthew says).
> 
> So it seems to me that Magnus' potential problem is how to string the upper 
> octaves of the 7th (and also probably 8th) course.
> 
> Martin
> 
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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Matthew Daillie]

There are two issues: the length and the diameter. It is not easy to 
find thin gauge gut strings long enough for a 130 cm diapason. A string 
of 0.34 is incredibly thin. I don't even know if they are available and 
if they are, they certainly wouldn't last long. I very much doubt that 
historical string makers were able to produce gut strings for lutes of 
such a small diameter. A gut string of 0.40 would be more appropriate 
for the top course of a renaissance lute in G at 60 cm.


Best,
Matthew

On 12/12/2017 12:25, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Dear Magnus,
I really don't see what the problem is: for a theorbo with doubled
octave strung basses, if your highest pitched open 7th course bass
octave is g (assuming a theorbo in nominal A), then for, say, a tension
around 3.2KG (obviously less than if single strung) the diameter of a
plain gut string of length 130cm is about 0.34mm.
This size is readily available in gut and is, indeed, the sort of
diameter required for the first course of a common renaissance lute (at
nominal G). In short, the gut size available then, as now, for lute
first course would have been equally available for the 7th course
octave of the first bass of a short second necked theorbo.
However, as Martin Shepherd points out, the present day state of this
instrument may not be as it first left the maker's workshop.
Longer basses may have been present originally.





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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I disagree Matthew,
   Bear in mind that thin gut strings stretch and thus thin significantly
   when up to tension. So your 0.40 would be closer to 0.37 when up to
   pitch. I was basing tension calculations (as they ought to be for
   accuracy) on stretched/thinned strings: thus the 0.34mm string would be
   around 0.37 unstretched..  not a million miles from your 0.40mm
   unstretched!  Perhaps a matter of taste.
   For example, I employ an unstretched 0.40mm diamter plain gut on my G
   lute (@A415) with string length of 64cm (which is roughly equivalent to
   your ).40 unthinned at 60cm @A440) - but this follows the early advice
   to use bigger strings on bigger lutes which ensures a similar feel
   rather than he same tension.  I prefer 0.37mm on a small lute of 60cm.
   rgds
   Martyn
 __

   From: Matthew Daillie 
   To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Tuesday, 12 December 2017, 11:55
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
   There are two issues: the length and the diameter. It is not easy to
   find thin gauge gut strings long enough for a 130 cm diapason. A string
   of 0.34 is incredibly thin. I don't even know if they are available and
   if they are, they certainly wouldn't last long. I very much doubt that
   historical string makers were able to produce gut strings for lutes of
   such a small diameter. A gut string of 0.40 would be more appropriate
   for the top course of a renaissance lute in G at 60 cm.
   Best,
   Matthew
   On 12/12/2017 12:25, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   > Dear Magnus,
   >I really don't see what the problem is: for a theorbo with doubled
   >octave strung basses, if your highest pitched open 7th course bass
   >octave is g (assuming a theorbo in nominal A), then for, say, a
   tension
   >around 3.2KG (obviously less than if single strung) the diameter
   of a
   >plain gut string of length 130cm is about 0.34mm.
   >This size is readily available in gut and is, indeed, the sort of
   >diameter required for the first course of a common renaissance
   lute (at
   >nominal G). In short, the gut size available then, as now, for
   lute
   >first course would have been equally available for the 7th course
   >octave of the first bass of a short second necked theorbo.
   >However, as Martin Shepherd points out, the present day state of
   this
   >instrument may not be as it first left the maker's workshop.
   >Longer basses may have been present originally.
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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

 The Working Index, that is the product between the frequency of the
 strings and the vibrating string lenght in mt,  can predict when a
 string start to be 'not good enought'.

   I am considering here the case of a plain gut string, not a denser
   versions (wound, loaded, gimped etc etc).
   Generally  speacking, we know that, more or less, the 6th course of a
   renaissance lute can be considered the limit for the sound quality,
   thus the octave is indispensable (Vihuela? In my opinion it had octaves
   on the 5 and 6 courses). The Working Index of a  6th course on a lute
   of 60cms at modern pitch is around 59 Hz/mt.
   So, if the last bass string of the extended neck is around the same
   value, an octave is necessary  (we have the same  working index of the
   6th course) .

   Which is the scale were the working index is same of the 6 course of a
   lute ?

   At the modern  'baroque' pitch of 415  the last bass note is a GG of
   46.25 Hz so:
   59/46.25= 1.27 mt
   In practice we can maybe say that, generally speacking when the
   extended neck start to be less than 1.20-1.30 mt and one uses plain gut
start to be necessary  the use of octaves.
   Of course, it is question of taste: some find that a dull sound is
   still welcome, other hate that. If one switch to roped catline gut
   strings the  extended neck can be even  a bit shorter than that.
   What it is important here is not to have a black or white vision,  we
   are indeed in a sort of grey area were to define if a sound is good or
   bad is matter of taste, which kind of strings and if the proportion of
   the lutei s the right one (the 1st string is working close to the
   breakage or not?) .  I have  considered a pactical 'rule of thumb'
   having seen that  the 6th course had octaves  while the 5th is still
   matter of taste.
   Mimmo
   -Messaggio originale-
   Da: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   Per conto di sterling price
   Inviato: lunedì 11 dicembre 2017 22:27
   A: Martin Shepherd <[3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>; Magnus Andersson
   <[4]magnusl...@gmail.com>; [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
 Question--what is the longest a neck extension can be and still be
   able
 to have octave strings? I'm making a pegbox for a baroque lute based
   on
 the 14 course Hoffman pegbox--the original is 115.7cm and I might
   make
 it a bit longer. I wont bore you with the reason I want it
   longer--but
 probably 120cm will do it.
 Thanks,
 Sterling
   __
 From: Martin Shepherd <[6]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
 To: Magnus Andersson <[7]magnusl...@gmail.com>;
   "[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
 <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 11:32 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
 Dear Magnus and All,
 A few thoughts:
 I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately
 found it puzzling.  Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been
 shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle.
 In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have
 recent
 experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian
 instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough
 string for the 3rd course.  I wonder if that tells us something about
 the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have
 been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm).
 If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at
 which the basses were made double.  Can anyone enlighten us as to
 whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled?
 The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely
 consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known
 from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely
 irrelevant anyway).  There is no reason to hypothesise an original
 state
 in which there were more than 6 courses.
 If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length
   for
 the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant
 theorboes.  It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this
 length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle
 remains.
 Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout)
   there
 is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit
   jeu
 strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of
   the
 beast.
 Best wishes,
 Martin
 On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote:

   Dear collective wisdom,

   I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding

   proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned.

   

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Tristan von Neumann]

Here's a few scenarios:

- The musician had to sell his luxury car for a small one, but the lute 
did not fit into the baggage compartment.
- The musician had to downsize his apartment, now living in a small room 
under the roof the lute was too long for the low ceiling.
- the musician had a very elaborate playing style and members of the 
orchestra complained about getting hit by the bass neck and chipped in 
for a neck shortening

- ...



Am 12.12.2017 um 07:59 schrieb howard posner:



On Dec 11, 2017, at 12:16 PM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:

That definitely appears to be the case. A shame indeed as it must have been a 
splendid instrument.

Best,
Matthew

On 11/12/2017 21:09, Martin Shepherd wrote:

OK so we could be looking at a "normal" Italian theorbo (6x2, 8x1) which has 
been mangled into something else.  What a shame.


And yet someone wanted to alter an expensive, splendid instrument in just that 
way, spending money that might have been spent on a courtesan or a cornetto.

Maybe that person had an actual reason, and we might  learn something by 
considering what it might have been.



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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Magnus Andersson]

   Dear Howard, Matthew, Martin and Mimmo,
   thanks very much for your insightful comments.
   As we all know, lutes and theorboes were rebuilt- I ´d not use the word
   mangle here- throughout the history.
   Samuel Pepys gives us an example on the 25th of October 1661:
   [1]"Home on foot very discontented, in my way I calling at the
   Instrument maker, Hunt ´s, and there saw my lute, which is now almost
   done, it being to have a new neck to it and to be made to double
   strings."
   To me- what we here with Sellas, is a theorbo that was rebuilt, into
   what Howard is implying, an instrument that ought
   to be played. If the original neck was broken and thus remade, or
   remade for musical reasons, we may not know.
   I think we can exclude the thought of it being a German theorbo. All
   surviving instruments that could ´ve
   been used as German theorboes have single bass strings throughout. Also
   Baron tells us that the fingerboard strings are double,
   but the long basses single. So even though the bridge is German, the
   tuning could very well have been the old "standard" tuning in G or A.
   1,3 m long basses would in my opinion not cut it with single strings
   (if we think of plain gut as the original string of choice) in terms of
   power- thus the necessity of octaves.
   If the theorbo would be tuned in 415hz, and in A, the first long string
   would give us a breaking index of 1.3 m x 185 hz = 240,5 m.hz.
   If tuned in 392 hz, 227,5 m.hz. How would this sound? I think (and
   hope!), majestic. Perhaps like the theorbo that the musician of Louis
   XIV holds
   in his hands, in the painting of François Puget...
   Best,
   Magnus
   â

   --

References

   1. http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/1023/


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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2017 10:17 CET, Martin Shepherd 
 schrieb: 
 
> It just occurred to me that the "English" theorbo as described by Mace 
> had double basses.  I have no experience of trying to reconstruct this 
> instrument, but some people do - David Van Edwards made one for Lynda 
> Sayce, there must be others -  I wonder if they have any insights?

But didn't these instruments have bass strings of increasing length (like the 
so-called
flemish lutes). So the 7th chourse would not have the full extention length.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes







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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Matthew Daillie]

I fully agree, Howard, that it is always interesting to explore how lutemaking 
developed and why certain instruments were modified to cater for changes in 
taste. There were clearly some very convincing conversions made of renaissance 
lutes for baroque lutenists, but wouldn't we have preferred that they start 
afresh so that we have both a renaissance lute and a baroque lute in their 
original state? What about all those historic lutes converted into 
hurdy-gurdies or 'lute-guitars' of one sort or another. We could also take into 
consideration the quality of these conversions, often blindly assuming that 
modern tastes and methods are better. Sometimes, as with harpsichords (of the 
Ruckers family in particular) the conversions have enabled the instruments to 
survive across the ages in one form or another but frequently so modified as to 
give us few clues regarding their original state.
Anyway, I do hope that Magnus gets the instrument he wants and finds suitable 
strings for the diapasons.
Best
Matthew




> On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:59, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> And yet someone wanted to alter an expensive, splendid instrument in just 
> that way, spending money that might have been spent on a courtesan or a 
> cornetto.  
> 
> Maybe that person had an actual reason, and we might  learn something by 
> considering what it might have been.



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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martin Shepherd]

It just occurred to me that the "English" theorbo as described by Mace 
had double basses.  I have no experience of trying to reconstruct this 
instrument, but some people do - David Van Edwards made one for Lynda 
Sayce, there must be others -  I wonder if they have any insights?


Martin


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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Magnus,
   I really don't see what the problem is: for a theorbo with doubled
   octave strung basses, if your highest pitched open 7th course bass
   octave is g (assuming a theorbo in nominal A), then for, say, a tension
   around 3.2KG (obviously less than if single strung) the diameter of a
   plain gut string of length 130cm is about 0.34mm.
   This size is readily available in gut and is, indeed, the sort of
   diameter required for the first course of a common renaissance lute (at
   nominal G). In short, the gut size available then, as now, for lute
   first course would have been equally available for the 7th course
   octave of the first bass of a short second necked theorbo.
   However, as Martin Shepherd points out, the present day state of this
   instrument may not be as it first left the maker's workshop.
   Longer basses may have been present originally.
   The famous Puget painting of Louis XIV's musicians (1687), sadly cuts
   off most of the theorbo upper peghead but one can do a bit of geometry
   and extend the strings upwards to a position where a reasonable
   seperation double course nut may be placed - on this basis  I roughly
   estimate a bass extension string length of the of 155 +/- 10, but this
   is, of course assuming Puget got it about right!
   MH
 __

   From: Magnus Andersson 
   To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Monday, 11 December 2017, 16:26
   Subject: [LUTE] A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
 Dear collective wisdom,
 I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding
 proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned.
 The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640,
 today housed in Paris with the label E. 545.

   [1][1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/016179
   9
 It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with
 six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm,
 and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm.
 It was probably shortened sometime from its original length
 into this present condition.
 The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses
 of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with
 0.40-0.42
 for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca.
 1500 mm...
 Any ideas would be highly appreciated.
 Best wishes,
 Magnus Andersson
 --
   References
 1.
   [2]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
   2. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martin Shepherd]

Sorry I didn't make myself clear.

When thinking about English theorbo, I was thinking about the viability 
of the lowest basses (at say 130cm).  On a typical swan-neck lute, the 
lowest course would be tuned to AA at a likely pitch of around a'=392 
and be perhaps 99cm long, so this might be a better comparison.  This 
comparison suggests that the 130cm bass on the theorbo would be fine.


The other issue is whether the 7th course octave is too thin to be 
viable (I can imagine a diameter of about .70mm for the low octave, but 
that implies .35mm for the high octave).  I've temporarily lost my 
string calculator, but Martyn Hodgson's estimate of .34mm seems 
reasonable.  But .34mm is at least 20% thinner than the smallest 
diameter that we think the Old Ones could have made (we could be wrong 
about this, but even if such a string could be made it is hard to 
imagine it being any use for anything, as Matthew says).


So it seems to me that Magnus' potential problem is how to string the 
upper octaves of the 7th (and also probably 8th) course.


Martin

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