[LUTE] Re: Buying a Lute

[David van Ooijen]

   I've played (Renaissance) lute, archlute, Baroque guitar and theorbo
   with nails for years. There's a 3-CD box with me playing theorbo
   continuo where over the course of the recording sessions I've shed my
   nails and went from synthetic strings to gut. Though it was a giant
   leap for me I think it's but a small step in the ears of the listeners.

   David
   On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 at 00:02, Daniel Shoskes
   <[1]kidneykut...@gmail.com> wrote:

 To answer your actual questions, I don't think there are enough
 people who have played the Luth Dore baroque lutes to really get a
 balanced opinion. You might want to ask Rob MacKillop off line
 because he received an early model. Of course once they start to be
 mass produced one hopes there will be consistency between
 instruments. I don't think you can make a blanket statement about
 bridge length. It really depends on your personal anatomy and how
 well the strings vibrate on the instrument. At that price point
 however there is little competition.
 There are people who have filed their nails on an angle, allowing
 flesh only for lute playing and a flesh/nail interface for classical
 guitar and/or theorbo. Pat O'Brien was a prime example of someone
 who easily switched between all instruments in that way.   It's
 actually the theorbo that has the hand position most similar to
 classical guitar, although there are differences for all the plucked
 lute family instruments. The primary difficulty with nails is
 cleanly striking both strings of a course together in unison.
 Especially that striking involves equal depression of both strings
 towards the soundboard and then follow through. A single strung
 theorbo avoids that problem, but you did say you wanted a baroque
 lute. Congratulations on that choice BTW, there is a surprising
 depth and breadth of music written in that tuning that traverses
 countries and styles. It's truly a wonderful instrument and it has
 given me years of joy.
 You didn't say where you live. If in the USA or UK, the local lute
 societies have lute lending programs that would allow you to try out
 a lute first. If you could attend one of the many playing days in
 the UK or lute seminar in the USA you would have the chance to try
 multiple lutes with different sizes and configurations. More ideal
 than buying sight unseen, which sadly most of us end up doing in the
 end.
 Danny
 > On Oct 18, 2017, at 2:58 AM, Ido Shdaimah <[2]ishdai...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 >
 >Hello fellow lute players and enthusiasts, I have a fair amount
 of
 >money saved and I would like to buy a lute. Currently I am
 eyeing Le
 >Luth Dorà © lutes, what is your take on these?
 >I would like a baroque lute, but Roman Turovsky advises against
 them
 >because of the 140cm bridge length, but I would like to hear
 other
 >people on the issue too.
 >More on these lutes: What is the difference between the cheaper
 and the
 >more expensive versions?
 >And finally, I currently play the classical guitar, and I'm not
 >planning to give up on it. So what should I do concerning the
 >nail/nail-less dispute? Should I find a middle ground, play
 nail-less
 >on both or maybe play with nails?
 >Thanks in advance.
 >
 >--
 >
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:ishdai...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: Buying a Lute

[Daniel Shoskes]

To answer your actual questions, I don’t think there are enough people who have 
played the Luth Dore baroque lutes to really get a balanced opinion. You might 
want to ask Rob MacKillop off line because he received an early model. Of 
course once they start to be mass produced one hopes there will be consistency 
between instruments. I don’t think you can make a blanket statement about 
bridge length. It really depends on your personal anatomy and how well the 
strings vibrate on the instrument. At that price point however there is little 
competition.

There are people who have filed their nails on an angle, allowing flesh only 
for lute playing and a flesh/nail interface for classical guitar and/or 
theorbo. Pat O’Brien was a prime example of someone who easily switched between 
all instruments in that way.  It’s actually the theorbo that has the hand 
position most similar to classical guitar, although there are differences for 
all the plucked lute family instruments. The primary difficulty with nails is 
cleanly striking both strings of a course together in unison. Especially that 
striking involves equal depression of both strings towards the soundboard and 
then follow through. A single strung theorbo avoids that problem, but you did 
say you wanted a baroque lute. Congratulations on that choice BTW, there is a 
surprising depth and breadth of music written in that tuning that traverses 
countries and styles. It’s truly a wonderful instrument and it has given me 
years of joy.

You didn’t say where you live. If in the USA or UK, the local lute societies 
have lute lending programs that would allow you to try out a lute first. If you 
could attend one of the many playing days in the UK or lute seminar in the USA 
you would have the chance to try multiple lutes with different sizes and 
configurations. More ideal than buying sight unseen, which sadly most of us end 
up doing in the end.

Danny

> On Oct 18, 2017, at 2:58 AM, Ido Shdaimah  wrote:
> 
>   Hello fellow lute players and enthusiasts, I have a fair amount of
>   money saved and I would like to buy a lute. Currently I am eyeing Le
>   Luth Doré lutes, what is your take on these?
>   I would like a baroque lute, but Roman Turovsky advises against them
>   because of the 140cm bridge length, but I would like to hear other
>   people on the issue too.
>   More on these lutes: What is the difference between the cheaper and the
>   more expensive versions?
>   And finally, I currently play the classical guitar, and I'm not
>   planning to give up on it. So what should I do concerning the
>   nail/nail-less dispute? Should I find a middle ground, play nail-less
>   on both or maybe play with nails?
>   Thanks in advance.
> 
>   --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Harp Sharp etc, on an 11c lute

[Rob MacKillop]

All you need is a pair of double-vision glasses...

Rob

> On 18 Oct 2017, at 19:27, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 18, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Rob MacKillop  wrote:
>> 
>>  I don't think you ever will recover, Howard. Send me your shrink bills.
> 
> Not possible.  In SSTS (Single-Stringing Trauma Syndrome) cases she insists 
> on cash up front.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Harp Sharp etc, on an 11c lute

[howard posner]

> On Oct 18, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Rob MacKillop  wrote:
> 
>   I don't think you ever will recover, Howard. Send me your shrink bills.

Not possible.  In SSTS (Single-Stringing Trauma Syndrome) cases she insists on 
cash up front.




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Harp Sharp etc, on an 11c lute

[Rob MacKillop]

   I don't think you ever will recover, Howard. Send me your shrink bills.
   I know what to do with them.
   Rob

   On 18 Oct 2017 18:51, "howard posner" <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
   wrote:

   > On Oct 18, 2017, at 1:15 AM, Rob MacKillop
   <[2]robmackil...@gmail.com> wrote:
   >
   >   There is nothing "authentic" about a single-strung 11c lute, I am
   the
   >first to admit. The truth is, the older I get the harder it
   becomes to
   >swap between instruments. These days I mainly play guitar and
   theorbo
   >(single strung) and to suddenly pick up an 11 or 13 c lute is more
   of a
   >challenge than it used to be. So, I decided to make life a little
   >easier for myself. I'm sure this will upset some people

 It certainly upset me.   I haven't been able to eat or sleep since I
 saw it.   Now I'm tired and skinny.   I'm hoping that with therapy I
 can get over it and resume a normal life.

   To get on or off this list see list information at

 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   2. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Harp Sharp etc, on an 11c lute

[howard posner]

> On Oct 18, 2017, at 1:15 AM, Rob MacKillop  wrote:
> 
>  There is nothing "authentic" about a single-strung 11c lute, I am the
>   first to admit. The truth is, the older I get the harder it becomes to
>   swap between instruments. These days I mainly play guitar and theorbo
>   (single strung) and to suddenly pick up an 11 or 13 c lute is more of a
>   challenge than it used to be. So, I decided to make life a little
>   easier for myself. I'm sure this will upset some people

It certainly upset me.  I haven’t been able to eat or sleep since I saw it.  
Now I’m tired and skinny.  I’m hoping that with therapy I can get over it and 
resume a normal life.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Buying a Lute

[Dan Winheld]

I second Ron's RH recommendation very strongly, but it's not always 
simple merely because one maintains a thumb -out orientation. I would 
add a few points-


1. Within the general orientation of thumb-out only, there are 
nevertheless some very different RH angles that have all been used on 
Classical Guitar- I was taught a very bent stiff "Segovia" style that in 
no way resembles any historic 17th-18th century thumb out; (or for that 
matter late 18th - early 19th century guitar thumb out!) and by the time 
I got a decent B-lute -decades later, I moved into a more historically 
based thumb out style after having first implanted R-lute thumb under, 
followed by 10 course transitional thumb out.


Little finger down on the top; highly restrictive if not fatally 
destructive to Torres & post-Torres guitars (elevated fingerboard!) -can 
be a good thing for initially acquiring orientation for the RH and 
discharge tension while learning. Eventually, as also attested to by E. 
G. Baron , the more advanced player is free to lose that little finger 
contact as often as necessary to move around & play with greater freedom 
of expression. On my 13course lute I absolutely cannot play with that 
finger tied down anywhere on the lute top, except for very occasional 
situations. It just happens naturally when necessary.


2. At this stage of general lute knowledge I would be very surprised if 
there is anyone, anywhere who would dispute that there are differing 
techniques appropriate to differing instruments, times, uses, 
provenances, etc. as amply demonstrated in countless iconographic 
sources and writings.


3. Nails? Before you do anything, just try them and see how it works. 
Without getting into historicity, I have known several nail players who 
get just as good (1 player) and almost as good tone quality as decent 
finger-tip players. And the absolutely worst harsh sound I have ever 
heard on a lute was attained by a no-nails player!  I personally had to 
rid myself of nails (no longer interested in modern conventional 
classical guitar player, certainly no professional commitments or 
aspirations).


And of course- as mentioned- plenty of historical precedents (including 
some 20th century players) for no-nails classical guitar. You makes your 
choices and your "mileage may vary".


4. Bridge width- you need to get a set-up that fits YOU! -whatever that 
requires. Like buying shoes, pants, whatever- "If the lute don't fit, 
you'll have to quit."


Dan Winheld



On 10/18/2017 6:37 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:

I forgot to reply to all.
  __

From: Ron Andrico 
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 1:36 PM
To: Ido Shdaimah
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Buying a Lute

I'll step in with some personal insights on your questions.

Without passing judgement on the output of the many excellent luthiers
across the globe, nor of recent efforts to produce instruments at a
lower cost utilizing labor from a rapidly emerging world power, buy the
best lute you can afford.  More importantly, buy an instrument from
someone who can promise to make adjustments and repairs as needed,
because you will need them.

As a classical guitarist, you will likely be more successful with
baroque lute.  Most baroque music is much more accessible, with a more
familiar treble and bass texture.  There is plenty of accessible
earlier music for renaissance lute, but the more satisfying music for
this instrument demands much deeper study in order to manage
polyphony.  With most baroque repertory, you get to play pretty
melodies with occasional added inner texture.  The work is in getting
your thumb to gracefully manage the bass notes (not like a
sledgehammer), most of which are open strings.  Further, the
historically appropriate right-hand technique for baroque lute is
really the same as that for classical guitar.  I will be dogmatic on
this point by asserting that the renaissance "thumb-under" approach on
baroque lute is historically indefensible and a complete absurdity.

Since you don't wish to give up on classical guitar, whether you choose
to use nails or not is really immaterial, unless you are interested in
playing on gut strings.  Gut strings plus nails equals large buckets of
money to replace strings that may only last a few days.  On the other
hand, many classical guitarists today are cutting their nails and
following the advice of Fernando Sor by playing with the fingertips.

Whatever you choose to buy and however you choose to approach the
instrument and its music, don't be taken in by people who will tell you
there is only one correct approach, my comments on the "thumb-under"
technique notwithstanding.  In that particular case, I'm telling you
that need not change your classical guitar technique for the right hand
   

[LUTE] Re: Buying a Lute

[Ed Durbrow]

You could file your nails on one side.

On Oct 18, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Ido Shdaimah  wrote:

> I currently play the classical guitar, and I'm not
>   planning to give up on it. So what should I do concerning the
>   nail/nail-less dispute? Should I find a middle ground, play nail-less
>   on both or maybe play with nails?

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/








--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Harp Sharp etc, on an 11c lute

[Rob MacKillop]

Good post, Luca. Well, I've been "maniacally hip" for almost 30 years, and have 
a wealth of experience in Early Music, but also elsewhere. Each decade seems to 
teach us more about the fashions of our own time than about (for example) the 
17th century. I've been through a lot of changes myself. To cut a long and 
fairly tedious story short, I'm now perfectly happy playing the way I do on 
this video. I know some people will like it, and some people won't. That's 
always the way of it, something I learned to accept many decades ago. 

Lang may yer lum reek! 

(Translation: Long may your chimney have smoke coming out of it! Something 
Wittgenstein forgot to add...)

Rob



> On 18 Oct 2017, at 11:37, Luca Manassero  wrote:
> 
> You're welcome, Rob.
> 
> And I tend to believe you're right. After 12 years of pretty intensive
> lute studies (renaissance in all its incarnations, baroque lute 11 and
> 13 course, theorbo) I'm still maniacally hip, BUT (and it's a big "but")
> I'm more and more fascinated by the music and its interpretation.
> 
> I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to start an easy flame on this
> list ;-) but I tend to believe that historically informed instruments
> helped us a lot to stop playing lute music as a sort of strange sounding
> Spanish guitar music. Once we learn it, then music is the real centrum.
> 
> You certainly already know what the Austrian philosopher Wittgenstein
> wrote (Umberto Eco ironically puts it in the mouth of Guglielmo da
> Baskerville in his "The name of the rose"): "[you] must, so to speak,
> throw away the ladder after [you have] climbed up it."
> 
> Therefore, I really like your video :-)
> 
> Luca
> 
> Il 2017-10-18 10:15 Rob MacKillop ha scritto:
> 
>> Thanks, Luca.
>> There is nothing "authentic" about a single-strung 11c lute, I am the
>> first to admit. The truth is, the older I get the harder it becomes to
>> swap between instruments. These days I mainly play guitar and theorbo
>> (single strung) and to suddenly pick up an 11 or 13 c lute is more of a
>> challenge than it used to be. So, I decided to make life a little
>> easier for myself. I'm sure this will upset some people, but all I want
>> to do is play beautiful music as best I can.
>> So, I hope people can just listen without making judgments over how
>> inauthentic I am being. I've been down the - shall we say - purist
>> road, and I love it when other people do that, as we all learn
>> something from it. I am still an "historically-informed performer",
>> though, and do my best to play with some sense of period style.
>> I hope people are open enough to just listen to the beautiful music.
>> And for what it's worth, I think the lute sounds beautiful too :-)
>> Rob MacKillop
>> 
>> On 18 October 2017 at 09:01, Luca Manassero <[1]l...@manassero.net>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I'm a bit wondering about the single strung lute, but the music is
>> really lovely.
>> Over here (near Venice) it's the "real" first Fall day (it was very
>> sunny 'til today) and this music just fits perfectly.
>> Thank you, Rob
>> Il 2017-10-18 01:09 Rob MacKillop ha scritto:
>>> Might be of interest to some here:
>>> [1][2]https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
>>> Rob MacKillop
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> References
>>> 
>>> 1. [3]https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> --
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> References
>> 
>> 1. mailto:l...@manassero.net
>> 2. https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
>> 3. https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
>> 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Harp Sharp etc, on an 11c lute

[Luca Manassero]

You're welcome, Rob.

And I tend to believe you're right. After 12 years of pretty intensive
lute studies (renaissance in all its incarnations, baroque lute 11 and
13 course, theorbo) I'm still maniacally hip, BUT (and it's a big "but")
I'm more and more fascinated by the music and its interpretation.

I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to start an easy flame on this
list ;-) but I tend to believe that historically informed instruments
helped us a lot to stop playing lute music as a sort of strange sounding
Spanish guitar music. Once we learn it, then music is the real centrum.

You certainly already know what the Austrian philosopher Wittgenstein
wrote (Umberto Eco ironically puts it in the mouth of Guglielmo da
Baskerville in his "The name of the rose"): "[you] must, so to speak,
throw away the ladder after [you have] climbed up it."

Therefore, I really like your video :-)

Luca

Il 2017-10-18 10:15 Rob MacKillop ha scritto:

> Thanks, Luca.
> There is nothing "authentic" about a single-strung 11c lute, I am the
> first to admit. The truth is, the older I get the harder it becomes to
> swap between instruments. These days I mainly play guitar and theorbo
> (single strung) and to suddenly pick up an 11 or 13 c lute is more of a
> challenge than it used to be. So, I decided to make life a little
> easier for myself. I'm sure this will upset some people, but all I want
> to do is play beautiful music as best I can.
> So, I hope people can just listen without making judgments over how
> inauthentic I am being. I've been down the - shall we say - purist
> road, and I love it when other people do that, as we all learn
> something from it. I am still an "historically-informed performer",
> though, and do my best to play with some sense of period style.
> I hope people are open enough to just listen to the beautiful music.
> And for what it's worth, I think the lute sounds beautiful too :-)
> Rob MacKillop
>
> On 18 October 2017 at 09:01, Luca Manassero <[1]l...@manassero.net>
> wrote:
>
> I'm a bit wondering about the single strung lute, but the music is
> really lovely.
> Over here (near Venice) it's the "real" first Fall day (it was very
> sunny 'til today) and this music just fits perfectly.
> Thank you, Rob
> Il 2017-10-18 01:09 Rob MacKillop ha scritto:
>> Might be of interest to some here:
>> [1][2]https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
>> Rob MacKillop
>>
>> --
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. [3]https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:l...@manassero.net
> 2. https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
> 3. https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
> 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Harp Sharp etc, on an 11c lute

[Rob MacKillop]

   Thanks, Luca.
   There is nothing "authentic" about a single-strung 11c lute, I am the
   first to admit. The truth is, the older I get the harder it becomes to
   swap between instruments. These days I mainly play guitar and theorbo
   (single strung) and to suddenly pick up an 11 or 13 c lute is more of a
   challenge than it used to be. So, I decided to make life a little
   easier for myself. I'm sure this will upset some people, but all I want
   to do is play beautiful music as best I can.
   So, I hope people can just listen without making judgments over how
   inauthentic I am being. I've been down the - shall we say - purist
   road, and I love it when other people do that, as we all learn
   something from it. I am still an "historically-informed performer",
   though, and do my best to play with some sense of period style.
   I hope people are open enough to just listen to the beautiful music.
   And for what it's worth, I think the lute sounds beautiful too :-)
   Rob MacKillop

   On 18 October 2017 at 09:01, Luca Manassero <[1]l...@manassero.net>
   wrote:

 I'm a bit wondering about the single strung lute, but the music is
 really lovely.
 Over here (near Venice) it's the "real" first Fall day (it was very
 sunny 'til today) and this music just fits perfectly.
 Thank you, Rob
 Il 2017-10-18 01:09 Rob MacKillop ha scritto:
 > Might be of interest to some here:
 > [1][2]https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
 > Rob MacKillop
 >
 > --
 >
 > References
 >
 > 1. [3]https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --

   --

References

   1. mailto:l...@manassero.net
   2. https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
   3. https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Harp Sharp etc, on an 11c lute

[Luca Manassero]

I'm a bit wondering about the single strung lute, but the music is
really lovely.

Over here (near Venice) it's the "real" first Fall day (it was very
sunny 'til today) and this music just fits perfectly.

Thank you, Rob

Il 2017-10-18 01:09 Rob MacKillop ha scritto:

> Might be of interest to some here:
> [1]https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
> Rob MacKillop
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. https://youtu.be/zvD4lwPoAks
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--

[LUTE] Buying a Lute

[Ido Shdaimah]

   Hello fellow lute players and enthusiasts, I have a fair amount of
   money saved and I would like to buy a lute. Currently I am eyeing Le
   Luth Doré lutes, what is your take on these?
   I would like a baroque lute, but Roman Turovsky advises against them
   because of the 140cm bridge length, but I would like to hear other
   people on the issue too.
   More on these lutes: What is the difference between the cheaper and the
   more expensive versions?
   And finally, I currently play the classical guitar, and I'm not
   planning to give up on it. So what should I do concerning the
   nail/nail-less dispute? Should I find a middle ground, play nail-less
   on both or maybe play with nails?
   Thanks in advance.

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html