have to break time. The article is worth a
read.
Best wishes,
Ron Andrico
http://www.mignarda.com Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 09:18:19 +0100 To:
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in
time Thanks to all who have replied. We seem to have arrived at one bar
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 13:33:01 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL
PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time As for Elizbethan dance
movements such as Pavan etc., I think we have to be very careful before
deciding if they have to be danceable or if they are stylised forms
Better still : A Performer's Guide to Seventeenth-Century Music, edited by
Stewart Carter (Schirmer Books, 1997), chapter 15 by George Houle : Meter and
Tempo, full of interesting information !
Best,
Jean-Marie
=== 07-02-2008 13:32:55 ===
Good point, Ron, and another good (short)
Thanks to all who have replied. We seem to have arrived at one bar of
galliard = half a bar of pavan, which is certainly is more plausible than
the original 'Donington' proposal.
However I still have a niggling problem with applying this to Dowland, with
whom this discussion started. The
: Peter Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:18 AM
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Thanks to all who have replied. We seem to have arrived at one bar of
galliard = half a bar of pavan, which is certainly is more plausible than
the original 'Donington
Jaroslaw,
I think it's right ! I have attached two examples : the first strain of the
Pavane La Bataille in Phalèse, Chorearum Molliorum, 1583, and the eqivalent
first strain of the adjoining Gaillarde. What I tried to explain is apparent
here and the tactus inequalis applies perfectly. I was
Sorry, Jaroslaw, the list doesn't seem to take attachments... :-(
JM
=== 06-02-2008 13:33:01 ===
Jaroslaw,
I think it's right ! I have attached two examples : the first strain of the
Pavane La Bataille in Phalèse, Chorearum Molliorum, 1583, and the eqivalent
first strain of the
Thank you for the tip, Anthony. I am just as glad to know you are around !
So, Jaroslaw and all those interested, my music examples are here :
http://adueliuti.free.fr/examples.htm
Best,
Jean-Marie
=== 06-02-2008 13:43:17 ===
Jean-Marie
You have to attatch by links, to a
Was Proportio sesquialtera (3/2) already mentioned?
For reference cf
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensuralnotation#Wei.C3.9Fe_Mensuralnotation_.28ca._1430-1600.29
(German)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensural_notation#Proportions_and_colorations
Mathias
Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Oops ! I forgot about those accents in French - on Phalèse - that IE refuses
to accept !
It should be OK now.
Jean-Marie
=== 06-02-2008 14:25:16 ===
there seems to be a path error!
So, Jaroslaw and all those interested, my music examples are here :
1/It depends what you mean by pulse, but in this case I count one in a
measure for practical reasons (not theoretical).
2/No, I am afraid there is no proportio sign at the beginning of the
galliarda.
3/Word modus was also used for the time-signature
4/If you think that suddenly in 1550 al
Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 1:33 PM
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Jaroslaw,
I think it's right ! I have attached two examples : the first strain of the
Pavane La Bataille in Phalčse, Chorearum Molliorum, 1583, and the eqivalent
first strain
Jaroslaw,
I'm afraid missed your point altogether :-(( ! Sorry about that.
I totally agree with what you say in this last mail, of course...
All the best,
Jean-Marie
=== 06-02-2008 15:17:10 ===
Jean-Marie,
Actually I haven't said I don't agree with what you wrote. I just reacted
On Feb 6, 2008, at 8:15 AM, Mathias R=F6sel wrote:
Was Proportio sesquialtera (3/2) already mentioned?
Would that be like the two bar passage in Dowland's Fancy numbered
5 in Poulton where in bars 26 and 27 the meter changes from common
time to 12/8 and there is a marking that calls for the
Was Proportio sesquialtera (3/2) already mentioned?
Would that be like the two bar passage in Dowland's
Fancy numbered 5 in Poulton where in bars 26 and 27
the meter changes from common time to 12/8 and there
is a marking that calls for the quarter note to
become a dotted quarter (when it
Thank you Mathias - this is the word I was looking for :-)
All the best
Jaroslaw
-Original Message-
From: Mathias Rösel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 10:10 PM
To: David Rastall
Cc: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Was Proportio sesquialtera (3/2
Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:40 AM
To: Jaros'aw Lipski
Cc: Lute
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Do you really mean this? Dowland galliards played at the same pulse as his
pavans are going to seem VERY slow.
P
On 04/02/2008, Jaros'aw Lipski
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 4:37 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time
| Peter
|
| Obviously I meant tempo - four time-units in one bar of the
Pavan is
| similar to the three time-units in one bar of the Galliard.
This gives an
| impression
On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html
Thank you, Arthur,
Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure.
In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half
Exactly Jerzy.
I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a
binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is
equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In
other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in
On 2008-02-05, at 17:33, LGS-Europe wrote:
Recorder and viol players are often shocked at the slowness of
speeds requested by lutenists for broken consort music (Morley 1599
et al), and a compromise has to be reached.
One of the top lute players once confessed to me why he is no longer
day.
Guy
-Original Message-
From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 9:30 AM
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time
I don't quite agree on that one ! I've been playing a lot of the English
broken consort repertoire and my colleagues always
It is correct, Jurek, as far as I know...
Jean-Marie
PS : sorry I used a wrong name in my first post; I had not paid enough
attention to your signature :-(
=== 05-02-2008 18:30:48 ===
Thank you Jean-Marie,
After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I
should have
I don't quite agree on that one ! I've been playing a lot of the English broken
consort repertoire and my colleagues always had fun too, believe me. This music
usually leaves a lot of space for divisions of other instruments than the lute
and it depends on how much the other musicians like to
Thank you Jean-Marie,
After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I
should have written:
1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat)
and in an original mensural notation would be:
3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of
a
Merci Bernd !!!
Everything's OK then, Jerzy !
Best ,
Jean-MArie
=== 05-02-2008 18:51:39 ===
PS : sorry I used a wrong name in my first post; I had not paid enough
attention to your
signature :-(
Jurek, c'est le terme d'affection de Jerzy.
:-)
bonne soirée!
B.
and sober
dance.
Jaroslaw
-Original Message-
From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 6:31 PM
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Thank you Jean-Marie,
After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I
should have written:
1
-
From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 6:31 PM
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Thank you Jean-Marie,
After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I
should have written:
1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one
There is no such obvious equivalence really, but keep in mind the equivalence
of one breve with two beats (Pavan) and one breve with three beats (Galliard).
The augmentation of the number of notes to a beat - three for two - gives the
feeling of an acceleration sufficient to differentiate the
I couldn't quickly find a fitting example of a XVIth c. pair pavan-
galliard, but I have at hand Terzi's 1st book of tab. and their on p.
115-117: Ballo Tedesco… / Il Saltarello del prescrito ballo. They are
closly related thematically and it immadiately appeares that one bar/
measure of
Jurek,
I absolutely agree! The problem arises when people want to play Dowland as
regular ren. dances.
Pozdrowienia
Jarek
-Original Message-
From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 9:03 PM
To: Lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Jarek,
On 2008
Hello all
Now that chunks of Mace are being quoted, I'd like to ask if anyone has
tried out his 'Infallible rule, how to keep time well'. (p.80)
Take a bullet, or any round piece, of what weighty thing you please, to the
weight of half a pound, or a pound (more or less) and fasten it, to the end
Dante wrote...
Then fasten the end of the string upon some hook, or nail, to the top of
the seiling, so, as the weight may well-nigh touch the bottom of the floor;
and when this is done, set it to work, after this manner, viz.
Take the weight in your hand, and carry it to one side of the room,
: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Dear Stewart,
Sorry for changing the title but I don't think being Polish has anything to
do with playing in time.
Thank you very much for your analysis. Yes, obviously Robert Donington The
interpretation of early music is a great source of knowledge for all of us.
It's
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 5:47 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
Actually Bream is not old fashioned. This is rather modern
attitude - a
need for steady rhythm and sharp accents. In baroque period breaking
chords
was absolutely common practice and thought
Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 5:47 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
Actually Bream is not old fashioned. This is rather modern attitude - a
need for steady rhythm and sharp accents. In baroque period
From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'm only pulling your leg, Stewart, obviously, but I do have a serious
point
to make regarding time keeping and respecting composers' wishes.
Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy Smith,
who both keeps country time and alters the
] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:
Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy
Smith, who both keeps country time and alters the performing
material.
RT
Yes, we should.
SAM
Has anyone, ever?
RT
Oh! Oh
On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:
Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy
Smith, who both keeps country time and alters the performing
material.
RT
Yes, we should.
SAM
Has anyone, ever?
RT
Oh! Oh! Over here! I have! I have! Right on
And the Victor Meldrew Award for Music Criticism goes to Stewart McCoy!
For those who have never heard of Victor, the archetypal grumpy old man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Meldrew
I'm only pulling your leg, Stewart, obviously, but I do have a serious point
to make regarding time keeping
I like these quotes.
..but do you think the occasional (and tasteful) spreading of chords
is a bad or non-HIP thing?
Andrew
On 30 Jan 2008, at 17:17, Stewart McCoy wrote:
In the last few years, Julian Bream has given master classes at
Lute Society
meetings in London. He stressed two
From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'm only pulling your leg, Stewart, obviously, but I do have a serious
point
to make regarding time keeping and respecting composers' wishes.
Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy Smith, who
both keeps country time and alters the
On Jan 31, 2008, at 4:39 AM, Andrew Gibbs wrote:
..but do you think the occasional (and tasteful) spreading of chords
is a bad or non-HIP thing?
No, not really. As long as it's not done to excess. Rolling too
many chords in a piece tends to muddy up the counterpoint and blur
the rhythm.
McCoy
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
I like these quotes.
.but do you think the occasional (and tasteful) spreading of chords
is a bad or non-HIP thing?
Andrew
On 30 Jan 2008, at 17:17, Stewart McCoy wrote:
In the last few years, Julian Bream has
:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 31. Januar 2008 16:09
An: Andrew Gibbs
Cc: Stewart McCoy; Lute Net
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
On Jan 31, 2008, at 4:39 AM, Andrew Gibbs wrote:
..but do you think the occasional (and tasteful) spreading of chords
is a bad
On Jan 31, 2008, at 12:49 PM, wolfgang wiehe wrote:
Are these markings in historical tabulatures too? I do not remember i
saw one.
I was thinking of the French ornamentation markings: offhand the
only one I can think of without searching through the music is a
slanted line separating
Are these markings in historical tabulatures too? I do not remember i
saw one.
I was thinking of the French ornamentation markings: offhand the
only one I can think of without searching through the music is a
slanted line separating vertical tab letters, meaning to play them
separated.
But
On Jan 31, 2008, at 2:15 PM, Bernd Haegemann wrote:
But that are separe signs!
They don't mean rolling the chord.
If there are three notes written vertically I guess you could call
that a chord. What about that squiggly line drawn beside a chord to
indicate rolling it? Surely that must
On 2008-01-31, at 20:15, Bernd Haegemann wrote:
Are these markings in historical tabulatures too? I do not
remember i
saw one.
I was thinking of the French ornamentation markings: offhand the
only one I can think of without searching through the music is a
slanted line separating vertical
)
On Frescobaldi's advice, are we sure it is to be applied broadly and not
just to the openings of his toccatas?
Cheers,
Jim Stimson
From: =?ISO646-US?Q?Jaros=3Faw_Lipski?= [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2008/01/31 Thu AM 11:47:49 CST
To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time
: =?ISO646-US?Q?Jaros=3Faw_Lipski?= [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2008/01/31 Thu AM 11:47:49 CST
To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
Actually Bream is not old fashioned. This is rather modern attitude - a
need for steady rhythm and sharp accents
Dear Stewart:
I agree wholeheartedly. I recently bought a recording of a lutenist playing
some of the most demanding repertory from an important published source of lute
music. Donna and I listened to the recording in the car while on a road trip
and we really could not believe our ears.
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