[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[John Mardinly]

   Simple physics: the strings are not uniform along their lengths,
   something that is actually difficult to achieve but something we have
   become accustomed to with newer more sophisticated methods of making
   strings.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   Retired Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer

   On Feb 28, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
   <[1]fournier...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Dear Collective wisdom,
 I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with
   wound
 strings and gut or nylgut.
 recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly
 getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD
 loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two
 different lutes.
 I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up
   the
 neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret.   I realize I
 rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me.   Am trying to
   figure
 out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would
 it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found
   to
 be very elastic.   I have never had this issue with wound string/gut
 combinations.
 I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes
   out
 of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded
   string
 that is giving me the problem.
 any comments?
 Bruno
 --
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   --

References

   1. mailto:fournier...@gmail.com
   2. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DQIBAg=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=7m6qXHFLDq4UJWi-GfyPBtaiVJ_kFOn69VHw637ynDA=-7bGiiHqnFJB7nQpHaP75B_8t2626BCzYNa0fBzEKa4=

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Mimmo Peruffo]

Buno, came here  and we will have space to take some good red wine or white 
prosecco, because I am in veneto and the Prosecco is the king here. Ah, and 
some hand made foods, of course.
I have done a video for my FB were i have done some  tests: my setup has not 
this kind of problem. However this do not mean that the problem do not 
exist.


Here is:
https://www.facebook.com/mperuffo/videos/10212851743109731/


How I have written, I would like to see how the strings were stretched just 
installed and in which point you pulled it.  The best position is exactly in 
the middle of the string.
said that, I would like to tell again that the official production of CD 
concerne the use of a stiffer elastomer, whose results are very good and 
solve a lot of problems.
All the next week will be dedicate to make almost 800 CD string per gauge 
just to cover all the necessity and cover all these delays, even the thinner 
meanes problems are fixed.
This mean, Bruno, that I would like to send you these ones and see what 
happen when you have installed them
In any case please do one test for me: try to reverse a CD bass string and 
tell me if it became sharp.

Thanks
Mimmo


-Messaggio originale- 
From: Bruno Cognyl-Fournier

Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 3:33 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

  Guys,
  This discussion is not about whether one should use pythagorean or
  equal temperament, it is about two strings in octavbles on the same
  course not being in tune together, by the time I've reached 5th fret,
  and the dissonance increases as I go beyond 5th fret.  the only change
  I have done on both my  G lutes, (57 cm  and 60 cm tuned in 440hz), is
  to replace the wound string with CD loaded.   The calculation was at 3
  Kg tension for the fundamental CD loaded on the 5th course, and I ended
  up with a 115 CD, as neither 110 nor 112 was available, and frankly we
  are still eyeballing it since I have had no clear answer as to what the
  real tension was on those strings is.   My octave remained as is, 5.0
  gut, hence 2.5 kg.. (same gauge as my 2nd course)  I guess I could try
  a thicker octave ( if I can find the right gauge in my SOFRACOB supply
  of strings..)
  as for the 6th course I have the same problem
  I have used SOFRACOB gut for 30 + years in combination with wound
  basses and never had the problem, I recently switched to nylgut and
  wound with no problem either, only when I put on the CD did I start
  having the problem.
  I suspect as mentioned before, that the real culprit is the elasticity
  of the CD and that I have not stretched it enough, I do agree that when
  I tune it up, it requires much more turning of the peg, as it doesn't
  instantly respond upwards. although stretching the string onto the peg
  prior to tuning is a bit of a challenge..   I will try turning it
  around to get it to stretch the other way as well, perhaps this will
  even out the string on its entire length. As I recall also from the
  numerous conversations about the CD, the recommendation was to go with
  a higher tension in order to have a less bouncy and rubber band effect.
  Mimmo, I do realize that this is a work in progress, and I do
  appreciate your offer to replace the strings, but before we do this I
  think the exact tension of the new strings should be calculated, and
  also compare the amount of stretch to standard nylgut or gut.   The
  feedback I sent is not a criticism in any way on your work, I hope you
  understand that,  but rather trying to understand what is happening and
  see how we can remedy the situation.   Overall I find the strings
  interesting in sound, and I do like them more than wound strings.
 As I mentioned, I will be in Italy this summer near your area, so If
  you are in town I would really like to see you.   I will not have my
  lute with me however, as it is inconvenient to take on the plane and I
  will be travelling around a lot and not have time to play.
  regards
  Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
  Montreal, Quebec

  2017-02-28 12:56 GMT-05:00 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
  <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>:

  Dear Collective wisdom,
  I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound
  strings and gut or nylgut.
  recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly
  getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD
  loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two
  different lutes.
  I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the
  neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret.   I realize I
  rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me.   Am trying to figure
  out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would
  it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to
  be very elastic.   I have never had this issue with wound string/gut
  combinations.
  I will be testing each string individually to

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Bruno Cognyl-Fournier]

   Guys,
   This discussion is not about whether one should use pythagorean or
   equal temperament, it is about two strings in octavbles on the same
   course not being in tune together, by the time I've reached 5th fret,
   and the dissonance increases as I go beyond 5th fret.  the only change
   I have done on both my  G lutes, (57 cm  and 60 cm tuned in 440hz), is
   to replace the wound string with CD loaded.   The calculation was at 3
   Kg tension for the fundamental CD loaded on the 5th course, and I ended
   up with a 115 CD, as neither 110 nor 112 was available, and frankly we
   are still eyeballing it since I have had no clear answer as to what the
   real tension was on those strings is.   My octave remained as is, 5.0
   gut, hence 2.5 kg.. (same gauge as my 2nd course)  I guess I could try
   a thicker octave ( if I can find the right gauge in my SOFRACOB supply
   of strings..)
   as for the 6th course I have the same problem
   I have used SOFRACOB gut for 30 + years in combination with wound
   basses and never had the problem, I recently switched to nylgut and
   wound with no problem either, only when I put on the CD did I start
   having the problem.
   I suspect as mentioned before, that the real culprit is the elasticity
   of the CD and that I have not stretched it enough, I do agree that when
   I tune it up, it requires much more turning of the peg, as it doesn't
   instantly respond upwards. although stretching the string onto the peg
   prior to tuning is a bit of a challenge..   I will try turning it
   around to get it to stretch the other way as well, perhaps this will
   even out the string on its entire length. As I recall also from the
   numerous conversations about the CD, the recommendation was to go with
   a higher tension in order to have a less bouncy and rubber band effect.
   Mimmo, I do realize that this is a work in progress, and I do
   appreciate your offer to replace the strings, but before we do this I
   think the exact tension of the new strings should be calculated, and
   also compare the amount of stretch to standard nylgut or gut.   The
   feedback I sent is not a criticism in any way on your work, I hope you
   understand that,  but rather trying to understand what is happening and
   see how we can remedy the situation.   Overall I find the strings
   interesting in sound, and I do like them more than wound strings.
  As I mentioned, I will be in Italy this summer near your area, so If
   you are in town I would really like to see you.   I will not have my
   lute with me however, as it is inconvenient to take on the plane and I
   will be travelling around a lot and not have time to play.
   regards
   Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
   Montreal, Quebec

   2017-02-28 12:56 GMT-05:00 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
   <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>:

   Dear Collective wisdom,
   I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound
   strings and gut or nylgut.
   recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly
   getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD
   loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two
   different lutes.
   I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the
   neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret.   I realize I
   rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me.   Am trying to figure
   out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would
   it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to
   be very elastic.   I have never had this issue with wound string/gut
   combinations.
   I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes out
   of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded string
   that is giving me the problem.
   any comments?
   Bruno

   --

References

   1. mailto:fournier...@gmail.com


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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Mimmo Peruffo]

Yes,  sometime my english is too fluent.
well you understood correctly.

example:
1.40 mm for the bass
.70 mm for the octave
This mean exactly an equal tension.

But when you install them the octavestring drop  its gauge more than the 
140. In practice the best solution is to install a 73 instead a 70. This is 
the pratical way to solve the problem.
Generally speacking, this compensation work very well on the most 
problematic  course that is the 4th on renaissance lutes. having a thicket 
octave make te sound warmer and the struing blend togheter very well.
at the end of the day there is no sources that explain what to do with the 
octaves. Maybe Gerle, if I well remember wrote someting in matter.


here is what I discovered using whole guts (this well explain WHY the lute 
MUST be tuned in 4th and 3rd only if one has  the goal to preserve the equal 
feel of tension between the first courses)

1  whole lamb gut: 1st course
2 whole lam guts: 2nd course
3 whole lam guts: 3rd course

these strings,using 1,2,3 whole lamb guts  became also the octaves for the 
4,,5,6 courses.

Mimmo



-Messaggio originale- 
From: Miles Dempster

Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 1:45 PM
To: Lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

Mimmo,

Just to see if I have understood you correctly, please confirm or correct 
the following statement, which tries to put your explanation in another way:


If you want to have the octave at the same tension as the fundamental, you 
must choose a string whose thickness (before it is stretched) would 
apparently lead to 5% more tension. Once it is stretched, it will become 
thinner, and less tension will be needed to achieve the desired pitch. In 
summary, when choosing the string, try to estimate how thick it will need to 
be when under tension.



Miles




On Mar 1, 2017, at 3:30 AM, Mimmo Peruffo <mperu...@aquilacorde.com> 
wrote:


I have another opinion.In order to preserve the so called equal feel of 
tension the octave string of the two of the course must have more tension 
then the bass string.  I suggest around 5% more. Why? because even if you 
calculated the two strings of the course with the same tension the thin 
octave string lost more percentage of its gauge than the thicker bass 
string. this mean that, when it is tuned, the real tension is less. the 
octaave string lost tension. In practice, you lost the equal feel of 
tension and the two strings do not blend togheter in the best way giving 
the impression that you are playing one string only.
One must compensate this thing increasing the tension of a 5% almost: a 
course so aranged is much more better.

Mimmo

-Messaggio originale- From: Matthew Daillie
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 8:49 AM
To: Dan Winheld
Cc: Miles Dempster ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

This is still very much a moot point. Some of the (numerous) 
interpretations of the recent discoveryof a possible period stringing 
list lead to the conclusion that octaves were strung at the same tension 
as fundamentals but it certainly hasn't been proven as far as I know.
I find that slightly less tension on the octaves of a well set-up lute 
works fine if the strings don't have any defects (unfortunately a big 'if' 
regarding bass strings).

Best
Matthew




On Mar 1, 2017, at 2:07, Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote:

We now know that the gut octaves must be the same tension as the 
fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically & intonationally.




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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Miles Dempster]

Mimmo,

Just to see if I have understood you correctly, please confirm or correct the 
following statement, which tries to put your explanation in another way:

If you want to have the octave at the same tension as the fundamental, you must 
choose a string whose thickness (before it is stretched) would apparently lead 
to 5% more tension. Once it is stretched, it will become thinner, and less 
tension will be needed to achieve the desired pitch. In summary, when choosing 
the string, try to estimate how thick it will need to be when under tension.


Miles




> On Mar 1, 2017, at 3:30 AM, Mimmo Peruffo <mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote:
> 
> I have another opinion.In order to preserve the so called equal feel of 
> tension the octave string of the two of the course must have more tension 
> then the bass string.  I suggest around 5% more. Why? because even if you 
> calculated the two strings of the course with the same tension the thin 
> octave string lost more percentage of its gauge than the thicker bass string. 
> this mean that, when it is tuned, the real tension is less. the octaave 
> string lost tension. In practice, you lost the equal feel of tension and the 
> two strings do not blend togheter in the best way giving the impression that 
> you are playing one string only.
> One must compensate this thing increasing the tension of a 5% almost: a 
> course so aranged is much more better.
> Mimmo
> 
> -Messaggio originale- From: Matthew Daillie
> Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 8:49 AM
> To: Dan Winheld
> Cc: Miles Dempster ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
> 
> This is still very much a moot point. Some of the (numerous) interpretations 
> of the recent discoveryof a possible period stringing list lead to the 
> conclusion that octaves were strung at the same tension as fundamentals but 
> it certainly hasn't been proven as far as I know.
> I find that slightly less tension on the octaves of a well set-up lute works 
> fine if the strings don't have any defects (unfortunately a big 'if' 
> regarding bass strings).
> Best
> Matthew
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 1, 2017, at 2:07, Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote:
>> 
>> We now know that the gut octaves must be the same tension as the 
>> fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically & intonationally.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Matthew Daillie]

Sorry, I meant 'pure', not 'perfect'.
Best
Matthew



> On Mar 1, 2017, at 9:43, Matthew Daillie  wrote:
> 
> None of the intervals are perfect in equal temperament (they all 'beat'). I 
> agree with the the major third on the open strings of a modern guitar being 
> classed as an imperfect consonance, but Ron describes it as being 'dissonant'.
> Best
> Matthew
> 
> 
>> On Mar 1, 2017, at 9:18, Lex van Sante  wrote:
>> 
>> The major third is a dissonance in equal temperament because it is way too 
>> big.
>> Even the perfect major third was considered to be an imperfect consonance in 
>> the dark ages.
>> 
>> Lex
>>> Op 1 mrt. 2017, om 09:03 heeft Matthew Daillie  
>>> het volgende geschreven:
>>> 
>>> Could you explain what you mean Ron, I don't understand this at all. Why do 
>>> you say the interval of a third is a dissonant interval?
>>> Best
>>> Matthew
 On Mar 1, 2017, at 5:13, Ron Andrico  wrote:
 
 3) It's not the g string on guitar that is the cause of the tuning
 problem, stiff though it may be for nylon players.  The culprit is the
 b string, which is tuned at the interval of a third from the g string,
 which is a dissonant interval.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Matthew Daillie]

None of the intervals are perfect in equal temperament (they all 'beat'). I 
agree with the the major third on the open strings of a modern guitar being 
classed as an imperfect consonance, but Ron describes it as being 'dissonant'.
Best
Matthew


> On Mar 1, 2017, at 9:18, Lex van Sante  wrote:
> 
> The major third is a dissonance in equal temperament because it is way too 
> big.
> Even the perfect major third was considered to be an imperfect consonance in 
> the dark ages.
> 
> Lex
>> Op 1 mrt. 2017, om 09:03 heeft Matthew Daillie  
>> het volgende geschreven:
>> 
>> Could you explain what you mean Ron, I don't understand this at all. Why do 
>> you say the interval of a third is a dissonant interval?
>> Best
>> Matthew
>>> On Mar 1, 2017, at 5:13, Ron Andrico  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 3) It's not the g string on guitar that is the cause of the tuning
>>> problem, stiff though it may be for nylon players.  The culprit is the
>>> b string, which is tuned at the interval of a third from the g string,
>>> which is a dissonant interval.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Arto Wikla]

In the "dark times", actually medieval times, they used the Pythagorean 
tuning, in which the major third is even larger than in the equal 
temperament. That third really is very dissonant!


Arto

On 01/03/17 10:18, Lex van Sante wrote:

The major third is a dissonance in equal temperament because it is way too big.
Even the perfect major third was considered to be an imperfect consonance in 
the dark ages.

Lex

Op 1 mrt. 2017, om 09:03 heeft Matthew Daillie  het 
volgende geschreven:

Could you explain what you mean Ron, I don't understand this at all. Why do you 
say the interval of a third is a dissonant interval?
Best
Matthew

On Mar 1, 2017, at 5:13, Ron Andrico  wrote:

3) It's not the g string on guitar that is the cause of the tuning
 problem, stiff though it may be for nylon players.  The culprit is the
 b string, which is tuned at the interval of a third from the g string,
 which is a dissonant interval.




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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Mimmo Peruffo]

I have another opinion.In order to preserve the so called equal feel of 
tension the octave string of the two of the course must have more tension 
then the bass string.  I suggest around 5% more. Why? because even if you 
calculated the two strings of the course with the same tension the thin 
octave string lost more percentage of its gauge than the thicker bass 
string. this mean that, when it is tuned, the real tension is less. the 
octaave string lost tension. In practice, you lost the equal feel of tension 
and the two strings do not blend togheter in the best way giving the 
impression that you are playing one string only.
One must compensate this thing increasing the tension of a 5% almost: a 
course so aranged is much more better.

Mimmo

-Messaggio originale- 
From: Matthew Daillie

Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 8:49 AM
To: Dan Winheld
Cc: Miles Dempster ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

This is still very much a moot point. Some of the (numerous) interpretations 
of the recent discoveryof a possible period stringing list lead to the 
conclusion that octaves were strung at the same tension as fundamentals but 
it certainly hasn't been proven as far as I know.
I find that slightly less tension on the octaves of a well set-up lute works 
fine if the strings don't have any defects (unfortunately a big 'if' 
regarding bass strings).

Best
Matthew




On Mar 1, 2017, at 2:07, Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote:

We now know that the gut octaves must be the same tension as the 
fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically & intonationally.




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Martin Shepherd]

Dear All,

A few points which might help clarify the discussion:

Maybe the problem with the CD string is is has stretched more in the 
section on the fingerboard than the section nearer the bridge - as Mimmo 
says, a good test is to turn the string round.


No problem with having equal tension octaves - they are preferable when 
using anything other than wound strings.


The reason the classical guitar 3rd string G# sounds horrible is largely 
because equal tempered thirds sound horrible.  I often give this as an 
example when trying to explain temperaments - C major (open 3rd) sounds 
fine (and people probably tend to tune the fifth (c-g) too close to 
pure, which will compound the problem), but then E major has a horribly 
sharp third.  As Miles says, the fact that it's a thick string probably 
doesn't help.


Talking of pure fifths, you don't want them - even an equal tempered 
fifth is 2 cents flat.


I can't believe the Old Ones played out of tune all the time.  It seems 
to have become almost a matter of style for famous 20th/21st century 
violinists to play out of tune, but I can't believe Monteverdi et al 
would have tolerated it for a moment.


Best wishes,

Martin


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus



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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Lex van Sante]

The major third is a dissonance in equal temperament because it is way too big.
Even the perfect major third was considered to be an imperfect consonance in 
the dark ages.

Lex
> Op 1 mrt. 2017, om 09:03 heeft Matthew Daillie  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Could you explain what you mean Ron, I don't understand this at all. Why do 
> you say the interval of a third is a dissonant interval?
> Best
> Matthew
>> On Mar 1, 2017, at 5:13, Ron Andrico  wrote:
>> 
>> 3) It's not the g string on guitar that is the cause of the tuning
>>  problem, stiff though it may be for nylon players.  The culprit is the
>>  b string, which is tuned at the interval of a third from the g string,
>>  which is a dissonant interval.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Matthew Daillie]

Could you explain what you mean Ron, I don't understand this at all. Why do you 
say the interval of a third is a dissonant interval?
Best
Matthew
> On Mar 1, 2017, at 5:13, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
>  3) It's not the g string on guitar that is the cause of the tuning
>   problem, stiff though it may be for nylon players.  The culprit is the
>   b string, which is tuned at the interval of a third from the g string,
>   which is a dissonant interval.



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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[jean-michel Catherinot]

   perhaps your octaves are too weak: low tension means in fact
   inharmonicity in may occurences. Also with higher tension the string
   need to be thicker: the difference of section between bass and octave
   is smaller, and much more easy to be in tune when fingered in higher
   position.
   Le Mercredi 1 mars 2017 7h27, Sean Smith <lutesm...@gmail.com> a écrit
   :
   > .I would have never thought a string would
   >  go flat in higher positions it is usually the opposite.
   I've seen it happen regularly on my top string or 4th octave when an
   older style nylgut (the white ones) has been on for a long time*.
   Usually after 7 months I have to decide whether to move the 5th and 7th
   frets up for the chanterelle or down for the long-in-the-tooth 2nd or
   3rd gut courses.
   I wonder if over time the plastic stretching eventually increases
   toward the center of the string (or one of the ends) â but the opposite
   for gut strings.
   Sean
   * 0.42 mm on a 60cm mensur at G (440)
   On Feb 28, 2017, at 7:05 PM, fournierbru <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
   >  Well that would mean I have to slant the frets to make the
   fundamental
   >  sharper and in tune inthose positions ..which will render the octave
   >  horribly sharp and the put the tasting below the octave string to
   lower
   >  it...because it is in fact the loaded nylgut fundamental which goes
   >  flat as you go up the neck...I would have never thought a string
   would
   >  go flat in higher positions it is usually the opposite.
   >
   >  Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
   >
   >   Original message 
   >  From: Miles Dempster <[2]miles.demps...@gmail.com>
   >  Date: 2017-02-28 9:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
   >  To: [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >  Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
   >
   >  Actually there is another solution to this. You'll probably all
   think
   >  that I am crazy, but I'll suggest it anyway since it is used by some
   >  guitar makers when crafting the nut, and might be applicable to
   lutes.
   >  On my classical guitar (yes, I confess that I do actually play one
   >  occasionally...) I find that the biggest tuning âproblem' is the 3rd
   >  (thickest nylon) string. It's the one that tends to be a little
   sharp.
   >  You get the instrument perfectly in tune for a C major chord only to
   >  find that the G sharp of an E major chord is too sharp, and so on as
   >  you go up the 3rd string.
   >  I solved the problem by putting a small tastino about 1/8th inch in
   >  front of the nut. In fact its a bit of a toothpick wedged under the
   >  string. What is does is shorten the distance from the nut to the
   frets,
   >  so that all the fretted notes will be flattened slightly (compared
   to
   >  the other strings).
   >  On a lute with double courses, you could do the same for the string
   >  (whether it be the fundamental or the octave) which goes sharper
   that
   >  the other.
   >  Best
   >  Miles
   >> On Feb 28, 2017, at 8:53 PM, fournierbru <[4]fournier...@gmail.com>
   >  wrote:
   >>
   >>  Getting exact same tension between fundamental and octave is next
   >  to
   >>  impossible and ludicrous.  Of course that wouldn't have been a
   >>  possibility In the Renaissance and lutes must certainly have been
   >  out
   >>  of tune..but our modern ear wants otherwise.  My strings are not
   >  THAT
   >>  much different in tension..the elasticity of the loaded nylgut is
   >  the
   >>  main culprit..my options are going back to wound on the courses in
   >>  octaves that are on the fingerboard or go for unions and adjust the
   >>  frets.
   >>
   >>  BRUNO
   >>
   >>  Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
   >>
   >>   Original message 
   >>  From: Dan Winheld <[5]dwinh...@lmi.net>
   >>  Date: 2017-02-28 8:07 PM (GMT-05:00)
   >>  To: Miles Dempster <[6]miles.demps...@gmail.com>,
   >  [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
   >>
   >>  On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote:
   >>  "Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the
   >>  fundamental."
   >>  Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with
   >  absurdly
   >>  slack octaves early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were
   >>  functionally useless; the overspun basses already being so overly
   >  heavy
   >>  on the harmonics. Until we started seriously playing with gut
   >  basses we
   >>  didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave strings.
   >  (I
   >>  know I didn't!) We now know

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Matthew Daillie]

Why would you have a perfect fifth, are you using a temperament with perfect 
fifths on your lute??
Best
Matthew



> On Mar 1, 2017, at 0:28, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier  wrote:
> 
>  So I tested the strings individually ,making sure first that the frets
>  were adjusted for one string properly... and conclusion is that the
>  loaded CD nylgut goes flat as you go up the scale on the neck...by the
>  time I get to the 7th fret I no longer have a perfect fifth.  



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Matthew Daillie]

This is still very much a moot point. Some of the (numerous) interpretations of 
the recent discoveryof a possible period stringing list lead to the 
conclusion that octaves were strung at the same tension as fundamentals but it 
certainly hasn't been proven as far as I know.
I find that slightly less tension on the octaves of a well set-up lute works 
fine if the strings don't have any defects (unfortunately a big 'if' regarding 
bass strings).
Best
Matthew



> On Mar 1, 2017, at 2:07, Dan Winheld  wrote:
> 
> We now know that the gut octaves must be the same tension as the fundamentals 
> for the whole system to work sonically & intonationally.



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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[howard posner]

> On Feb 28, 2017, at 8:13 PM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> Sorry, but I simply can't accept the idea that the old ones couldn't
>   tell whether or not they were in tune. 

I understood the earlier post to mean that they could tell, but lived with it, 
rather as we accept that 15 first violins will sometimes be shriekishly out of 
tune in high passages, and take comfort in knowing they won’t stay up there 
longuy.  I’m not buying that either.

Back in the earlier geological era that was my young adulthood, in the days 
before the Web and widespread cable television, I happened to catch  a guest by 
appearance by Isaac Stern, a great violinist (famous enough to be on a network 
TV show) but historically uninformed (in both of those things, he was the 
Itzhak Perlman of the day), on a show hosted by Merv Griffin or Dick Cavett 
(who were both very famous and fairly bright).  The host, in full-on interview 
mode, said something like, “I understand you can do something that Paganini 
could do: play in tune when your violin is out of tune."

Stern answered simply, “They didn’t play in tune in those days.”

Now you know why Beethoven went deaf.





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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Mimmo Peruffo]

Dear Bruno,
The problem can have different explanations
the first one: the string. have you tried to install in the opposite? it 
became sharper or not?


Why a string can give this problem?
maybe the string has defect, maybe the defect was introduced during the 
tuning. I have seen this thing a lot of time with our elastomer bass ukulele 
strings
for example, have you pulled it  exactly on the 12 fret (so the stretch is 
balanced on both side of the string) or maybe on one side only, maybe close 
to the bridge? In the second situation the string became unbalanced (the 
gauge reduced in that portion of string) and can be flat;  if you pulled it 
close to the bridge or sharp if you pulled it on the first frets.

this problem can happen with softer struings like CD are.
You mention statistic: well, this is the first complain. I had some 
concerning the very thin gor the 5 and 6 courses. I fixed the problem. in 
any case please consider that this is the first version, the second version 
will be less stretchly No problem at all for replaces. It is my job.
I will do it starting form tomorrow (I have finished my job trips and some 
very urgent harp string production).
On my lute I have not this problem, maybe because my octaves are gut and 
roped gut for the ticker ones?
well, I will do a video for my FB page so things will be better explained.I 
will  show the intonation on frets of my 6 and 7 courses


CiaoMimmo



-Original Message- 
From: Bruno Cognyl-Fournier

Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 12:28 AM
To: Dan Winheld
Cc: Arto Wikla ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

  Hello all
  So I tested the strings individually ,making sure first that the frets
  were adjusted for one string properly... and conclusion is that the
  loaded CD nylgut goes flat as you go up the scale on the neck...by the
  time I get to the 7th fret I no longer have a perfect fifth.   My gut
  string stays in tune all the way up, and so does the regular nylgut.
  I have a feeling part of the problem is the elasticity of the loaded
  nylgut.   Mimmo has to investigate this .
  Bruno

  2017-02-28 15:21 GMT-05:00 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
  <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>:

   yes it is the first time I use non wound strings on my basses. I
have
   used gut octaves for   30 years and have never had the problem,
at least
   not to that extent.I understand the action can be part of the
   problem, although.I will test the pitch on the strings taken
   individually, however I suspect only one of the two strings is
off
   pitch as you go up, and I've never had to match the tension
exactly for
   both strings, although it could be part of the problem as well.
   Bruno

 2017-02-28 15:06 GMT-05:00 Dan Winheld <[1][2]dwinh...@lmi.net>:
   Bruno- Is this the first time you have ever used non-overspun
   basses? That may explain your problem rather than the loaded CD
   string specifically.It's a totally different feel, whether the
   thick basses are actual gut of one sort or another or a synthetic
   that mimics a gut bass string. (I have used plain high twist,
   loaded, catlines, Gamut "Pistoys", Gimp, and Savarez KF.)All
  fret
   more or less the same and can work with their octave strings ;
   assuming trueness proper tension, matching tension to the octave,
   and of course proper action/neck/fret. Too high action (either nut
   or bridge- neck angle) or too thick frets can all affect this-
  e.g.,
   very thick frets- (mostly we fret thicker & single, not the same
  as
   historically done) -and too much finger pressure will distort the
   intonation- obviously the diff. diameter strings will respond
   differently.
   Dan
   On 2/28/2017 10:31 AM, Arto Wikla wrote:
   Hi Bruno
   No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves.
   Arto
   On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote:
  Dear Collective wisdom,
  I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years,
  with
   wound
  strings and gut or nylgut.
  recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am
  slowly
  getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with
   CD
  loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this
  on
   two
  different lutes.
  I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I
  go
   up the
  neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret. I
   realize I
  rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me. Am trying
  to
   figure
  out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or
   would
  it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably
   found to
  be very elastic. I have never had this issue wi

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Sean Smith]

> .I would have never thought a string would
>   go flat in higher positions it is usually the opposite.

I’ve seen it happen regularly on my top string or 4th octave when an older 
style nylgut (the white ones) has been on for a long time*. Usually after 7 
months I have to decide whether to move the 5th and 7th frets up for the 
chanterelle or down for the long-in-the-tooth 2nd or 3rd gut courses.

I wonder if over time the plastic stretching eventually increases toward the 
center of the string (or one of the ends) — but the opposite for gut strings.

Sean

* 0.42 mm on a 60cm mensur at G (440) 


On Feb 28, 2017, at 7:05 PM, fournierbru <fournier...@gmail.com> wrote:

>   Well that would mean I have to slant the frets to make the fundamental
>   sharper and in tune inthose positions ..which will render the octave
>   horribly sharp and the put the tasting below the octave string to lower
>   it...because it is in fact the loaded nylgut fundamental which goes
>   flat as you go up the neck...I would have never thought a string would
>   go flat in higher positions it is usually the opposite.
> 
>   Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
> 
>    Original message 
>   From: Miles Dempster <miles.demps...@gmail.com>
>   Date: 2017-02-28 9:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
>   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
> 
>   Actually there is another solution to this. You'll probably all think
>   that I am crazy, but I'll suggest it anyway since it is used by some
>   guitar makers when crafting the nut, and might be applicable to lutes.
>   On my classical guitar (yes, I confess that I do actually play one
>   occasionally...) I find that the biggest tuning ‘problem' is the 3rd
>   (thickest nylon) string. It's the one that tends to be a little sharp.
>   You get the instrument perfectly in tune for a C major chord only to
>   find that the G sharp of an E major chord is too sharp, and so on as
>   you go up the 3rd string.
>   I solved the problem by putting a small tastino about 1/8th inch in
>   front of the nut. In fact its a bit of a toothpick wedged under the
>   string. What is does is shorten the distance from the nut to the frets,
>   so that all the fretted notes will be flattened slightly (compared to
>   the other strings).
>   On a lute with double courses, you could do the same for the string
>   (whether it be the fundamental or the octave) which goes sharper that
>   the other.
>   Best
>   Miles
>> On Feb 28, 2017, at 8:53 PM, fournierbru <fournier...@gmail.com>
>   wrote:
>> 
>>  Getting exact same tension between fundamental and octave is next
>   to
>>  impossible and ludicrous.   Of course that wouldn't have been a
>>  possibility In the Renaissance and lutes must certainly have been
>   out
>>  of tune..but our modern ear wants otherwise.   My strings are not
>   THAT
>>  much different in tension..the elasticity of the loaded nylgut is
>   the
>>  main culprit..my options are going back to wound on the courses in
>>  octaves that are on the fingerboard or go for unions and adjust the
>>  frets.
>> 
>>  BRUNO
>> 
>>  Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
>> 
>>   Original message 
>>  From: Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>
>>  Date: 2017-02-28 8:07 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>  To: Miles Dempster <miles.demps...@gmail.com>,
>   lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
>> 
>>  On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote:
>>  "Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the
>>  fundamental."
>>  Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with
>   absurdly
>>  slack octaves early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were
>>  functionally useless; the overspun basses already being so overly
>   heavy
>>  on the harmonics. Until we started seriously playing with gut
>   basses we
>>  didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave strings.
>   (I
>>  know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same
>>  tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically
>   &
>>  intonationally.
>>But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck,
>   yes
>>  that's a deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet
>>  tried the new CD loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the
>>  thick string would go flat as it frets up the fingerboard (if it is
>   not
>>  false!). Too flexible- very interesting- are we stringing to
>   loosely? I
>>  remember attempting to use thick, stiff, low twist harp strings
>   back in
>>  the 1970's for lute basses- what a disaster!
>>  Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull
>   the
>>  trigger yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass
>   strings
>>  until this is sorted out.
>>  Dan
>>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>>  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[fournierbru]

   Well that would mean I have to slant the frets to make the fundamental
   sharper and in tune inthose positions ..which will render the octave
   horribly sharp and the put the tasting below the octave string to lower
   it...because it is in fact the loaded nylgut fundamental which goes
   flat as you go up the neck...I would have never thought a string would
   go flat in higher positions it is usually the opposite.

   Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.

    Original message 
   From: Miles Dempster <miles.demps...@gmail.com>
   Date: 2017-02-28 9:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

   Actually there is another solution to this. You'll probably all think
   that I am crazy, but I'll suggest it anyway since it is used by some
   guitar makers when crafting the nut, and might be applicable to lutes.
   On my classical guitar (yes, I confess that I do actually play one
   occasionally...) I find that the biggest tuning ‘problem' is the 3rd
   (thickest nylon) string. It's the one that tends to be a little sharp.
   You get the instrument perfectly in tune for a C major chord only to
   find that the G sharp of an E major chord is too sharp, and so on as
   you go up the 3rd string.
   I solved the problem by putting a small tastino about 1/8th inch in
   front of the nut. In fact its a bit of a toothpick wedged under the
   string. What is does is shorten the distance from the nut to the frets,
   so that all the fretted notes will be flattened slightly (compared to
   the other strings).
   On a lute with double courses, you could do the same for the string
   (whether it be the fundamental or the octave) which goes sharper that
   the other.
   Best
   Miles
   > On Feb 28, 2017, at 8:53 PM, fournierbru <fournier...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
   >
   >   Getting exact same tension between fundamental and octave is next
   to
   >   impossible and ludicrous.   Of course that wouldn't have been a
   >   possibility In the Renaissance and lutes must certainly have been
   out
   >   of tune..but our modern ear wants otherwise.   My strings are not
   THAT
   >   much different in tension..the elasticity of the loaded nylgut is
   the
   >   main culprit..my options are going back to wound on the courses in
   >   octaves that are on the fingerboard or go for unions and adjust the
   >   frets.
   >
   >   BRUNO
   >
   >   Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
   >
   >    Original message 
   >   From: Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>
   >   Date: 2017-02-28 8:07 PM (GMT-05:00)
   >   To: Miles Dempster <miles.demps...@gmail.com>,
   lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >   Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
   >
   >   On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote:
   >   "Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the
   >   fundamental."
   >   Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with
   absurdly
   >   slack octaves early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were
   >   functionally useless; the overspun basses already being so overly
   heavy
   >   on the harmonics. Until we started seriously playing with gut
   basses we
   >   didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave strings.
   (I
   >   know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same
   >   tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically
   &
   >   intonationally.
   > But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck,
   yes
   >   that's a deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet
   >   tried the new CD loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the
   >   thick string would go flat as it frets up the fingerboard (if it is
   not
   >   false!). Too flexible- very interesting- are we stringing to
   loosely? I
   >   remember attempting to use thick, stiff, low twist harp strings
   back in
   >   the 1970's for lute basses- what a disaster!
   >   Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull
   the
   >   trigger yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass
   strings
   >   until this is sorted out.
   >   Dan
   >   To get on or off this list see list information at
   >   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Miles Dempster]

Actually there is another solution to this. You’ll probably all think that I am 
crazy, but I’ll suggest it anyway since it is used by some guitar makers when 
crafting the nut, and might be applicable to lutes.

On my classical guitar (yes, I confess that I do actually play one 
occasionally...) I find that the biggest tuning ‘problem’ is the 3rd (thickest 
nylon) string. It’s the one that tends to be a little sharp. You get the 
instrument perfectly in tune for a C major chord only to find that the G sharp 
of an E major chord is too sharp, and so on as you go up the 3rd string.

I solved the problem by putting a small tastino about 1/8th inch in front of 
the nut. In fact its a bit of a toothpick wedged under the string. What is does 
is shorten the distance from the nut to the frets, so that all the fretted 
notes will be flattened slightly (compared to the other strings).

On a lute with double courses, you could do the same for the string (whether it 
be the fundamental or the octave) which goes sharper that the other.

Best

Miles




> On Feb 28, 2017, at 8:53 PM, fournierbru <fournier...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>   Getting exact same tension between fundamental and octave is next to
>   impossible and ludicrous.   Of course that wouldn't have been a
>   possibility In the Renaissance and lutes must certainly have been out
>   of tune..but our modern ear wants otherwise.   My strings are not THAT
>   much different in tension..the elasticity of the loaded nylgut is the
>   main culprit..my options are going back to wound on the courses in
>   octaves that are on the fingerboard or go for unions and adjust the
>   frets.
> 
>   BRUNO
> 
>   Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
> 
>    Original message 
>   From: Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>
>   Date: 2017-02-28 8:07 PM (GMT-05:00)
>   To: Miles Dempster <miles.demps...@gmail.com>, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
> 
>   On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote:
>   "Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the
>   fundamental."
>   Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with absurdly
>   slack octaves early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were
>   functionally useless; the overspun basses already being so overly heavy
>   on the harmonics. Until we started seriously playing with gut basses we
>   didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave strings. (I
>   know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same
>   tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically &
>   intonationally.
> But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck, yes
>   that's a deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet
>   tried the new CD loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the
>   thick string would go flat as it frets up the fingerboard (if it is not
>   false!). Too flexible- very interesting- are we stringing to loosely? I
>   remember attempting to use thick, stiff, low twist harp strings back in
>   the 1970's for lute basses- what a disaster!
>   Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull the
>   trigger yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass strings
>   until this is sorted out.
>   Dan
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Sean Smith]

It’s also possible that the two strings are absorbing moisture at different 
rates. Furthermore they may absorb hand sweat in different areas preventing or 
promoting same.

“It’s way more complicated than we ever imagined!”   

Sean



On Feb 28, 2017, at 5:53 PM, fournierbru <fournier...@gmail.com> wrote:

>   Getting exact same tension between fundamental and octave is next to
>   impossible and ludicrous.   Of course that wouldn't have been a
>   possibility In the Renaissance and lutes must certainly have been out
>   of tune..but our modern ear wants otherwise.   My strings are not THAT
>   much different in tension..the elasticity of the loaded nylgut is the
>   main culprit..my options are going back to wound on the courses in
>   octaves that are on the fingerboard or go for unions and adjust the
>   frets.
> 
>   BRUNO
> 
>   Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
> 
>    Original message 
>   From: Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>
>   Date: 2017-02-28 8:07 PM (GMT-05:00)
>   To: Miles Dempster <miles.demps...@gmail.com>, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves
> 
>   On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote:
>   "Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the
>   fundamental."
>   Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with absurdly
>   slack octaves early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were
>   functionally useless; the overspun basses already being so overly heavy
>   on the harmonics. Until we started seriously playing with gut basses we
>   didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave strings. (I
>   know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same
>   tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically &
>   intonationally.
> But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck, yes
>   that's a deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet
>   tried the new CD loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the
>   thick string would go flat as it frets up the fingerboard (if it is not
>   false!). Too flexible- very interesting- are we stringing to loosely? I
>   remember attempting to use thick, stiff, low twist harp strings back in
>   the 1970's for lute basses- what a disaster!
>   Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull the
>   trigger yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass strings
>   until this is sorted out.
>   Dan
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[fournierbru]

   Getting exact same tension between fundamental and octave is next to
   impossible and ludicrous.   Of course that wouldn't have been a
   possibility In the Renaissance and lutes must certainly have been out
   of tune..but our modern ear wants otherwise.   My strings are not THAT
   much different in tension..the elasticity of the loaded nylgut is the
   main culprit..my options are going back to wound on the courses in
   octaves that are on the fingerboard or go for unions and adjust the
   frets.

   BRUNO

   Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.

    Original message 
   From: Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>
   Date: 2017-02-28 8:07 PM (GMT-05:00)
   To: Miles Dempster <miles.demps...@gmail.com>, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

   On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote:
   "Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the
   fundamental."
   Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with absurdly
   slack octaves early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were
   functionally useless; the overspun basses already being so overly heavy
   on the harmonics. Until we started seriously playing with gut basses we
   didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave strings. (I
   know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same
   tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically &
   intonationally.
 But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck, yes
   that's a deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet
   tried the new CD loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the
   thick string would go flat as it frets up the fingerboard (if it is not
   false!). Too flexible- very interesting- are we stringing to loosely? I
   remember attempting to use thick, stiff, low twist harp strings back in
   the 1970's for lute basses- what a disaster!
   Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull the
   trigger yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass strings
   until this is sorted out.
   Dan
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Dan Winheld]

On 2/28/2017 4:06 PM, Miles Dempster wrote:

"Maybe it could help if the octave is closer in tension to the fundamental."

Bingo!- Miles wins. It became a custom to string lutes with absurdly slack octaves 
early in the lute re-Renaissance, as they were functionally useless; the overspun 
basses already being so overly heavy on the harmonics. Until we started seriously 
playing with gut basses we didn't even actually know the true purpose of the octave 
strings. (I know I didn't!) We now know that the gut octaves must be the same 
tension as the fundamentals for the whole system to work sonically & 
intonationally.

 But if those new ones really are going flat going up the neck, yes that's a 
deal breaker on any fingered bass courses. I have not yet tried the new CD 
loadeds- it sure seems counter intuitive that the thick string would go flat as 
it frets up the fingerboard (if it is not false!). Too flexible- very 
interesting- are we stringing to loosely? I remember attempting to use thick, 
stiff, low twist harp strings back in the 1970's for lute basses- what a 
disaster!

Any other experiences from players using these? Not willing to pull the trigger 
yet for 7 B-lute bass strings and 4 10 course lute bass strings until this is 
sorted out.

Dan




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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Miles Dempster]

Dear collective wisdom,

I once attempted to compute the amount by which the placement of a fret has to 
be adjusted to compensate for the increase in tension that arises when you 
depress it onto the fret.

If I remember my conclusions, correctly, when you press the string down, the 
proportionate increase in tension, and hence the frequency, varies inversely 
with the elasticity of the string material.

Hence, a steel string (relatively inelastic) will sharpen more that a nylon or 
gut string (more elastic). It’s much easier to ‘bend’ a note on a steel string 
guitar than on a classical one.

The new CD strings are extremely elastic - you have to stretch them much much 
more than any of the other types to bring them up to pitch. In fact, I would 
expect that the fret placement for a CD string would need less adjustment 
(compared to the theoretical placement) than other types of strings since there 
will be less pitch distortion due to the increase in tension when you press it 
down.

On lutes we are blessed with ability to adjust to frets to adjust for these 
pitch distortions. However, when mixing fundamentals and octaves with widely 
different elasticities it is only to be expected that the internal tuning of 
the course will go out of kilter. Maybe it could help if the octave is closer 
in tension to the fundamental.

Just my two cents worth


Miles

> On Feb 28, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier  
> wrote:
> e
>   Hello all
>   So I tested the strings individually ,making sure first that the frets
>   were adjusted for one string properly... and conclusion is that the
>   loaded CD nylgut goes flat as you go up the scale on the neck...by the
>   time I get to the 7th fret I no longer have a perfect fifth.   My gut
>   string stays in tune all the way up, and so does the regular nylgut.
>   I have a feeling part of the problem is the elasticity of the loaded
>   nylgut.   Mimmo has to investigate this .
>   Bruno
> 
>   2017-02-28 15:21 GMT-05:00 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
>   <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>:
> 
>yes it is the first time I use non wound strings on my basses. I
> have
>used gut octaves for   30 years and have never had the problem,
> at least
>not to that extent.I understand the action can be part of the
>problem, although.I will test the pitch on the strings taken
>individually, however I suspect only one of the two strings is
> off
>pitch as you go up, and I've never had to match the tension
> exactly for
>both strings, although it could be part of the problem as well.
>Bruno
> 
>  2017-02-28 15:06 GMT-05:00 Dan Winheld <[1][2]dwinh...@lmi.net>:
>Bruno- Is this the first time you have ever used non-overspun
>basses? That may explain your problem rather than the loaded CD
>string specifically.It's a totally different feel, whether the
>thick basses are actual gut of one sort or another or a synthetic
>that mimics a gut bass string. (I have used plain high twist,
>loaded, catlines, Gamut "Pistoys", Gimp, and Savarez KF.)All
>   fret
>more or less the same and can work with their octave strings ;
>assuming trueness proper tension, matching tension to the octave,
>and of course proper action/neck/fret. Too high action (either nut
>or bridge- neck angle) or too thick frets can all affect this-
>   e.g.,
>very thick frets- (mostly we fret thicker & single, not the same
>   as
>historically done) -and too much finger pressure will distort the
>intonation- obviously the diff. diameter strings will respond
>differently.
>Dan
>On 2/28/2017 10:31 AM, Arto Wikla wrote:
>Hi Bruno
>No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves.
>Arto
>On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote:
>   Dear Collective wisdom,
>   I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years,
>   with
>wound
>   strings and gut or nylgut.
>   recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am
>   slowly
>   getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with
>CD
>   loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this
>   on
>two
>   different lutes.
>   I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I
>   go
>up the
>   neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret. I
>realize I
>   rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me. Am trying
>   to
>figure
>   out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or
>would
>   it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably
>found to
>   be very elastic. I have never had this issue with wound
>string/gut
>   

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Bruno Cognyl-Fournier]

   Hello all
   So I tested the strings individually ,making sure first that the frets
   were adjusted for one string properly... and conclusion is that the
   loaded CD nylgut goes flat as you go up the scale on the neck...by the
   time I get to the 7th fret I no longer have a perfect fifth.   My gut
   string stays in tune all the way up, and so does the regular nylgut.
   I have a feeling part of the problem is the elasticity of the loaded
   nylgut.   Mimmo has to investigate this .
   Bruno

   2017-02-28 15:21 GMT-05:00 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
   <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>:

yes it is the first time I use non wound strings on my basses. I
 have
used gut octaves for   30 years and have never had the problem,
 at least
not to that extent.I understand the action can be part of the
problem, although.I will test the pitch on the strings taken
individually, however I suspect only one of the two strings is
 off
pitch as you go up, and I've never had to match the tension
 exactly for
both strings, although it could be part of the problem as well.
Bruno

  2017-02-28 15:06 GMT-05:00 Dan Winheld <[1][2]dwinh...@lmi.net>:
Bruno- Is this the first time you have ever used non-overspun
basses? That may explain your problem rather than the loaded CD
string specifically.It's a totally different feel, whether the
thick basses are actual gut of one sort or another or a synthetic
that mimics a gut bass string. (I have used plain high twist,
loaded, catlines, Gamut "Pistoys", Gimp, and Savarez KF.)All
   fret
more or less the same and can work with their octave strings ;
assuming trueness proper tension, matching tension to the octave,
and of course proper action/neck/fret. Too high action (either nut
or bridge- neck angle) or too thick frets can all affect this-
   e.g.,
very thick frets- (mostly we fret thicker & single, not the same
   as
historically done) -and too much finger pressure will distort the
intonation- obviously the diff. diameter strings will respond
differently.
Dan
On 2/28/2017 10:31 AM, Arto Wikla wrote:
Hi Bruno
No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves.
Arto
On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote:
   Dear Collective wisdom,
   I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years,
   with
wound
   strings and gut or nylgut.
   recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am
   slowly
   getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with
CD
   loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this
   on
two
   different lutes.
   I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I
   go
up the
   neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret. I
realize I
   rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me. Am trying
   to
figure
   out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or
would
   it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably
found to
   be very elastic. I have never had this issue with wound
string/gut
   combinations.
   I will be testing each string individually to check which one
goes out
   of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the
   Loaded
string
   that is giving me the problem.
   any comments?
   Bruno
   --
To get on or off this list see list information at

  [2][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
 References
1. mailto:[4]dwinh...@lmi.net
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   --

References

   1. mailto:fournier...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Bruno Cognyl-Fournier]

   yes it is the first time I use non wound strings on my basses. I have
   used gut octaves for  30 years and have never had the problem, at least
   not to that extent.   I understand the action can be part of the
   problem, although.   I will test the pitch on the strings taken
   individually, however I suspect only one of the two strings is off
   pitch as you go up, and I've never had to match the tension exactly for
   both strings, although it could be part of the problem as well.
   Bruno

   2017-02-28 15:06 GMT-05:00 Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net>:

 Bruno- Is this the first time you have ever used non-overspun
 basses? That may explain your problem rather than the loaded CD
 string specifically.   It's a totally different feel, whether the
 thick basses are actual gut of one sort or another or a synthetic
 that mimics a gut bass string. (I have used plain high twist,
 loaded, catlines, Gamut "Pistoys", Gimp, and Savarez KF.)   All fret
 more or less the same and can work with their octave strings ;
 assuming trueness proper tension, matching tension to the octave,
 and of course proper action/neck/fret. Too high action (either nut
 or bridge- neck angle) or too thick frets can all affect this- e.g.,
 very thick frets- (mostly we fret thicker & single, not the same as
 historically done) -and too much finger pressure will distort the
 intonation- obviously the diff. diameter strings will respond
 differently.
 Dan
 On 2/28/2017 10:31 AM, Arto Wikla wrote:

 Hi Bruno
 No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves.
 Arto
 On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote:

Dear Collective wisdom,
I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with
 wound
strings and gut or nylgut.
recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly
getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with
 CD
loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on
 two
different lutes.
I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go
 up the
neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret.I
 realize I
rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me.Am trying to
 figure
out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or
 would
it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably
 found to
be very elastic.I have never had this issue with wound
 string/gut
combinations.
I will be testing each string individually to check which one
 goes out
of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded
 string
that is giving me the problem.
any comments?
Bruno
--
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Dan Winheld]

Bruno- Is this the first time you have ever used non-overspun basses? 
That may explain your problem rather than the loaded CD string 
specifically.  It's a totally different feel, whether the thick basses 
are actual gut of one sort or another or a synthetic that mimics a gut 
bass string. (I have used plain high twist, loaded, catlines, Gamut 
"Pistoys", Gimp, and Savarez KF.)  All fret more or less the same and 
can work with their octave strings ; assuming trueness proper tension, 
matching tension to the octave, and of course proper action/neck/fret. 
Too high action (either nut or bridge- neck angle) or too thick frets 
can all affect this- e.g., very thick frets- (mostly we fret thicker & 
single, not the same as historically done) -and too much finger pressure 
will distort the intonation- obviously the diff. diameter strings will 
respond differently.


Dan


On 2/28/2017 10:31 AM, Arto Wikla wrote:

Hi Bruno

No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves.

Arto

On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote:

   Dear Collective wisdom,
   I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with 
wound

   strings and gut or nylgut.
   recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly
   getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD
   loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two
   different lutes.
   I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go 
up the

   neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret.   I realize I
   rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me.   Am trying to 
figure

   out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would
   it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably 
found to

   be very elastic.   I have never had this issue with wound string/gut
   combinations.
   I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes 
out
   of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded 
string

   that is giving me the problem.
   any comments?
   Bruno

   --


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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Matthew Daillie]

Unfortunately this is a common issue with a lot of strings. One thing 
you could try is to put the CD string on the other way around. Very 
often that solves the problem or at least makes it less prominent. I 
even had a similar issue with a long PVF string that I cut in two to put 
on the 5th course of a 10-course. One of the two resulting strings was 
false but fine when I put it on the other way around!


The issue is not specific to renaissance lutes but may be more 
noticeable because of playing the bass strings more often in the upper 
registers.


Best

Matthew

On 28/02/2017 18:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote:

Dear Collective wisdom,
I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound
strings and gut or nylgut.
recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly
getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD
loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two
different lutes.
I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the
neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret.   I realize I
rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me.   Am trying to figure
out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would
it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to
be very elastic.   I have never had this issue with wound string/gut
combinations.
I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes out
of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded string
that is giving me the problem.
any comments?
Bruno

--





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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[Arto Wikla]

Hi Bruno

No problems on my archlute's 6th and 7th. CDs and NNG octaves.

Arto

On 28/02/17 19:56, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier wrote:

   Dear Collective wisdom,
   I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with wound
   strings and gut or nylgut.
   recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly
   getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with CD
   loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on two
   different lutes.
   I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go up the
   neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret.   I realize I
   rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me.   Am trying to figure
   out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or would
   it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably found to
   be very elastic.   I have never had this issue with wound string/gut
   combinations.
   I will be testing each string individually to check which one goes out
   of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded string
   that is giving me the problem.
   any comments?
   Bruno

   --


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[LUTE] Re: basses in octaves

[David Morales]

   Hi Bruno,
   We have received the same feedback from a couple of customers these
   days at Cuerdas Pulsadas, so I am going to try them in the renaissance
   lute to check if this is something specific of not.
   Regards.

   2017-02-28 9:56 GMT-08:00 Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
   <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>:

Dear Collective wisdom,
I have been tuning my 5 and 6th course in octaves for years, with
 wound
strings and gut or nylgut.
recently I bought the CD loaded strings from Mimmo and am slowly
getting used to them. I have thus replaced the fundamental with
 CD
loaded, while keeping my octave strings in gut or nylgut, this on
 two
different lutes.
I have noticed that the octaves are horribly out of tune as I go
 up the
neck, especially by the time you get to the 7th fret.I
 realize I
rarely have to play up there, but it bothers me.Am trying to
 figure
out what the problem is.. would it be a mismatch of tension? or
 would
it be the Loaded CD strings, that as some of you have probably
 found to
be very elastic.I have never had this issue with wound
 string/gut
combinations.
I will be testing each string individually to check which one
 goes out
of tune as you move up the scale, but I suspect it is the Loaded
 string
that is giving me the problem.
any comments?
Bruno
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References

   1. mailto:fournier...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/
   4. mailto:h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com
   5. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog
   6. http://cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog/agenda/
   7. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/timeline
   8. http://.cuerdaspulsadas.com/blog
   9. http://www.facebook.com/cuerdaspulsadas
  10. http://www.twitter.com/cuerdaspulsadas
  11. http://www.instagram.com/cuerdaspulsadas