Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
06/06/2013 18:35, Richard Heck: Span is more or less allowed everywhere. Of course, span is by default inline. But you can get it to act like a div by setting display:block in CSS. Cheating, no doubt. So a span is designed to be included in the flow of the text, like a footnote is... Why is that cheating? JMarc
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/07/2013 04:51 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: 06/06/2013 18:35, Richard Heck: Span is more or less allowed everywhere. Of course, span is by default inline. But you can get it to act like a div by setting display:block in CSS. Cheating, no doubt. So a span is designed to be included in the flow of the text, like a footnote is... Why is that cheating? span is really meant for things like text ranges. rh
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/06/2013 05:12 PM, Steve Litt wrote: How would I override the stdsections.inc styles' HTMLTag in my layout? My layout files don't define styles already given me by LyX's book style, but instead just add new styles. What would be the quickest, easiest way within a layout file to modify HTMLTag for Standard, Part, Section, Subsection, SubSubSection, Paragraph and SubParagraph? Could I do something like this Assuming starting with the Article document class and not using Part: Style Section CopyStyle Section HTMLTag h1 End Style Standard CopyStyle Standard HTMLTag p End You don't need the CopyStyle stuff. The rest will update the style if it already exists, not over-write it. Richard
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 11:51:34 -0400 Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote: On 06/06/2013 05:12 PM, Steve Litt wrote: How would I override the stdsections.inc styles' HTMLTag in my layout? My layout files don't define styles already given me by LyX's book style, but instead just add new styles. What would be the quickest, easiest way within a layout file to modify HTMLTag for Standard, Part, Section, Subsection, SubSubSection, Paragraph and SubParagraph? Could I do something like this Assuming starting with the Article document class and not using Part: Style Section CopyStyle Section HTMLTag h1 End Style Standard CopyStyle Standard HTMLTag p End You don't need the CopyStyle stuff. The rest will update the style if it already exists, not over-write it. Richard Thanks Richard, With or without the CopyStyle, it wouldn't substitute the tag in HTMLTag for the default div. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/07/2013 05:28 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 11:51:34 -0400 Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote: On 06/06/2013 05:12 PM, Steve Litt wrote: How would I override the stdsections.inc styles' HTMLTag in my layout? My layout files don't define styles already given me by LyX's book style, but instead just add new styles. What would be the quickest, easiest way within a layout file to modify HTMLTag for Standard, Part, Section, Subsection, SubSubSection, Paragraph and SubParagraph? Could I do something like this Assuming starting with the Article document class and not using Part: Style Section CopyStyle Section HTMLTag h1 End Style Standard CopyStyle Standard HTMLTag p End You don't need the CopyStyle stuff. The rest will update the style if it already exists, not over-write it. Richard Thanks Richard, With or without the CopyStyle, it wouldn't substitute the tag in HTMLTag for the default div. See the attached. I've put the relevant layout into Document Setttings Local Layout. Note that load order of layout stuff matters. You would need to load stdsections.inc, or whatever loads it, first, and then do your customizations. One nice thing about Local Layout is that it always comes last. Richard h.lyx Description: application/lyx
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 17:52:18 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:
On 06/07/2013 05:28 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
Thanks Richard,
With or without the CopyStyle, it wouldn't substitute the tag in
HTMLTag for the default div.
See the attached. I've put the relevant layout into Document
Setttings Local Layout.
Hi Richard,
The attached doc was doc class article. The only thing I saw that
indicated it was tweaked was the document preamble in the LyX file
contained:
\usepackage{heck}
But I don't know what was in package heck or where to put it.
Note that load order of layout stuff matters. You would need to
load stdsections.inc, or whatever loads it, first,
Would I do that at the top of my layout file?
and then do your
customizations. One nice thing about Local Layout is that it
always comes last.
But then again, to use LyX as a quickie web page writer, I'd need to
have one central layout file not local.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/07/2013 06:22 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 17:52:18 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:
On 06/07/2013 05:28 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
Thanks Richard,
With or without the CopyStyle, it wouldn't substitute the tag in
HTMLTag for the default div.
See the attached. I've put the relevant layout into Document
Setttings Local Layout.
Hi Richard,
The attached doc was doc class article. The only thing I saw that
indicated it was tweaked was the document preamble in the LyX file
contained:
\usepackage{heck}
But I don't know what was in package heck or where to put it.
That's not relevant. See Document Settings Local Layout.
Note that load order of layout stuff matters. You would need to
load stdsections.inc, or whatever loads it, first,
Would I do that at the top of my layout file?
Post the layout file if not sure.
Richard
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
06/06/2013 18:35, Richard Heck: Span is more or less allowed everywhere. Of course, span is by default inline. But you can get it to act like a div by setting display:block in CSS. Cheating, no doubt. So a span is designed to be included in the flow of the text, like a footnote is... Why is that cheating? JMarc
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/07/2013 04:51 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: 06/06/2013 18:35, Richard Heck: Span is more or less allowed everywhere. Of course, span is by default inline. But you can get it to act like a div by setting display:block in CSS. Cheating, no doubt. So a span is designed to be included in the flow of the text, like a footnote is... Why is that cheating? span is really meant for things like text ranges. rh
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/06/2013 05:12 PM, Steve Litt wrote: How would I override the stdsections.inc styles' HTMLTag in my layout? My layout files don't define styles already given me by LyX's book style, but instead just add new styles. What would be the quickest, easiest way within a layout file to modify HTMLTag for Standard, Part, Section, Subsection, SubSubSection, Paragraph and SubParagraph? Could I do something like this Assuming starting with the Article document class and not using Part: Style Section CopyStyle Section HTMLTag h1 End Style Standard CopyStyle Standard HTMLTag p End You don't need the CopyStyle stuff. The rest will update the style if it already exists, not over-write it. Richard
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 11:51:34 -0400 Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote: On 06/06/2013 05:12 PM, Steve Litt wrote: How would I override the stdsections.inc styles' HTMLTag in my layout? My layout files don't define styles already given me by LyX's book style, but instead just add new styles. What would be the quickest, easiest way within a layout file to modify HTMLTag for Standard, Part, Section, Subsection, SubSubSection, Paragraph and SubParagraph? Could I do something like this Assuming starting with the Article document class and not using Part: Style Section CopyStyle Section HTMLTag h1 End Style Standard CopyStyle Standard HTMLTag p End You don't need the CopyStyle stuff. The rest will update the style if it already exists, not over-write it. Richard Thanks Richard, With or without the CopyStyle, it wouldn't substitute the tag in HTMLTag for the default div. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/07/2013 05:28 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 11:51:34 -0400 Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote: On 06/06/2013 05:12 PM, Steve Litt wrote: How would I override the stdsections.inc styles' HTMLTag in my layout? My layout files don't define styles already given me by LyX's book style, but instead just add new styles. What would be the quickest, easiest way within a layout file to modify HTMLTag for Standard, Part, Section, Subsection, SubSubSection, Paragraph and SubParagraph? Could I do something like this Assuming starting with the Article document class and not using Part: Style Section CopyStyle Section HTMLTag h1 End Style Standard CopyStyle Standard HTMLTag p End You don't need the CopyStyle stuff. The rest will update the style if it already exists, not over-write it. Richard Thanks Richard, With or without the CopyStyle, it wouldn't substitute the tag in HTMLTag for the default div. See the attached. I've put the relevant layout into Document Setttings Local Layout. Note that load order of layout stuff matters. You would need to load stdsections.inc, or whatever loads it, first, and then do your customizations. One nice thing about Local Layout is that it always comes last. Richard h.lyx Description: application/lyx
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 17:52:18 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:
On 06/07/2013 05:28 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
Thanks Richard,
With or without the CopyStyle, it wouldn't substitute the tag in
HTMLTag for the default div.
See the attached. I've put the relevant layout into Document
Setttings Local Layout.
Hi Richard,
The attached doc was doc class article. The only thing I saw that
indicated it was tweaked was the document preamble in the LyX file
contained:
\usepackage{heck}
But I don't know what was in package heck or where to put it.
Note that load order of layout stuff matters. You would need to
load stdsections.inc, or whatever loads it, first,
Would I do that at the top of my layout file?
and then do your
customizations. One nice thing about Local Layout is that it
always comes last.
But then again, to use LyX as a quickie web page writer, I'd need to
have one central layout file not local.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/07/2013 06:22 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 17:52:18 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:
On 06/07/2013 05:28 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
Thanks Richard,
With or without the CopyStyle, it wouldn't substitute the tag in
HTMLTag for the default div.
See the attached. I've put the relevant layout into Document
Setttings Local Layout.
Hi Richard,
The attached doc was doc class article. The only thing I saw that
indicated it was tweaked was the document preamble in the LyX file
contained:
\usepackage{heck}
But I don't know what was in package heck or where to put it.
That's not relevant. See Document Settings Local Layout.
Note that load order of layout stuff matters. You would need to
load stdsections.inc, or whatever loads it, first,
Would I do that at the top of my layout file?
Post the layout file if not sure.
Richard
Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
Hi all, I decided to try my hand at using LyX to quickly write web pages. When I converted to either LyXHTML or HTML, the result delineated paragraphs not with p, but with div. That's certainly not how I want my websites to be written. To me, div is a description of appearance: fingerpainting. To me, p is a description of functionality, which is what I want. p can have class=mystyle just like div can, with CSS defining what mystyle looks like. So I'm not sure what's gained by using div for all paragraphs. Similarly, a casual perusal of the output looks to me like all headings are h1 with different classes part, section, etc. This also casts aside HTML's natural structure and meanings, keeping the appearance. Of course, to map part/chapter/section/subsection/subsubsection/paragraph to HTML's h1 thru h6 would require an outside mapping, but I think a knowledgeable author could make that mapping in five minutes. None of this is vital to me. I can always make a Vim script that replaces div with p, replaces h1 with the proper h? level depending on the class, etc. I'm just curious why it was chosen, both by export to HTML and export to LyXHTML, to map to HTML appearance instead of HTML structure. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/06/2013 08:34 AM, Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, I decided to try my hand at using LyX to quickly write web pages. When I converted to either LyXHTML or HTML, the result delineated paragraphs not with p, but with div. That's certainly not how I want my websites to be written. To me, div is a description of appearance: fingerpainting. To me, p is a description of functionality, which is what I want. p can have class=mystyle just like div can, with CSS defining what mystyle looks like. So I'm not sure what's gained by using div for all paragraphs. Similarly, a casual perusal of the output looks to me like all headings are h1 with different classes part, section, etc. This also casts aside HTML's natural structure and meanings, keeping the appearance. Of course, to map part/chapter/section/subsection/subsubsection/paragraph to HTML's h1 thru h6 would require an outside mapping, but I think a knowledgeable author could make that mapping in five minutes. None of this is vital to me. I can always make a Vim script that replaces div with p, replaces h1 with the proper h? level depending on the class, etc. I'm just curious why it was chosen, both by export to HTML and export to LyXHTML, to map to HTML appearance instead of HTML structure. Almost all such things can be modified via layout. In this case: Style Standard HTMLTag p End Put it in local layout, a module, whatever you want, and more generally see section 5.4 of the Customization manual. That said, the reason it is done this way is because the default layout, Standard, is used inside other kinds of things, where p would not be allowed. At least, I seem to remember that is why I did it that way. There is actually a similar problem now with footnotes, which are formatted via div, which is not allowed, e.g., in a heading. Richard
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
06/06/2013 15:47, Richard Heck: That said, the reason it is done this way is because the default layout, Standard, is used inside other kinds of things, where p would not be allowed. At least, I seem to remember that is why I did it that way. It would be nice to document what the reason really was. I agree with Steve that outputting propper HTML is very important, in particular if we plan to import it in other formats. And what about h1/h2/h3... ? JMarc
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/06/2013 09:54 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: 06/06/2013 15:47, Richard Heck: That said, the reason it is done this way is because the default layout, Standard, is used inside other kinds of things, where p would not be allowed. At least, I seem to remember that is why I did it that way. It would be nice to document what the reason really was. I agree with Steve that outputting propper HTML is very important, in particular if we plan to import it in other formats. The use of div for paragraphs is not unusual. One sees it quite alot on the web. I suppose it would be possible to test, as we do output, for the case when we are embedded in some context where p is not allowed. That could be filed as a bug. And what about h1/h2/h3... ? This was just wrong. h1 is used for both part and chapter, with different classes. h2 is used for sections, h3 for subsections, etc. See stdsections.inc for the details, all of which, again, can be modified via layout. Richard
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
06/06/2013 16:02, Richard Heck: It would be nice to document what the reason really was. I agree with Steve that outputting propper HTML is very important, in particular if we plan to import it in other formats. The use of div for paragraphs is not unusual. One sees it quite alot on the web. I can also find lots of interesting MSword documenta on the web :) It is a matter of semantics http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2226562/what-is-the-difference-between-p-and-div [do philosophers care about semantics?] And what about h1/h2/h3... ? This was just wrong. h1 is used for both part and chapter, with different classes. h2 is used for sections, h3 for subsections, etc. See stdsections.inc for the details, all of which, again, can be modified via layout. Good. JMarc
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/06/2013 10:22 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: 06/06/2013 16:02, Richard Heck: It would be nice to document what the reason really was. I agree with Steve that outputting propper HTML is very important, in particular if we plan to import it in other formats. The use of div for paragraphs is not unusual. One sees it quite alot on the web. I can also find lots of interesting MSword documenta on the web :) It is a matter of semantics http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2226562/what-is-the-difference-between-p-and-div Yes, I know, but especially with auto-generated documents, the use of p causes problems, which is why people avoid it. Here's an example of what led to this: p class=standardThis is a paragraph.div class=footnotep class=standardThis is a footnote./pp class=standardWith two paragraphs./p/div Rest of paragraph./p That is invalid. Whereas if you replace p with div it is fine. Again, we could try to detect this, but it's hard to know how to do it without making assumptions. What if someone did use div for Standard? Then there is nothing to detect. It starts to feel like we need to code the entire DTD and check everything we do against it. For what it's worth, really solving the problem of footnotes inside headings (div not allowed inside h2, e.g.) may require enough machinery to do this too. The div paragraphs inside the footnote (which now has to be treated as span) won't be permitted either. Richard
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
06/06/2013 16:33, Richard Heck: Here's an example of what led to this: p class=standardThis is a paragraph.div class=footnotep class=standardThis is a footnote./pp class=standardWith two paragraphs./p/div Rest of paragraph./p That is invalid. Whereas if you replace p with div it is fine. Which p? The inner one? Again, we could try to detect this, but it's hard to know how to do it without making assumptions. What if someone did use div for Standard? Then there is nothing to detect. It starts to feel like we need to code the entire DTD and check everything we do against it. This is not nice indeed. For what it's worth, really solving the problem of footnotes inside headings (div not allowed inside h2, e.g.) may require enough machinery to do this too. The div paragraphs inside the footnote (which now has to be treated as span) won't be permitted either. What is the difference between div and span in in this case? JMarc
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/06/2013 12:21 PM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: 06/06/2013 16:33, Richard Heck: Here's an example of what led to this: p class=standardThis is a paragraph.div class=footnotep class=standardThis is a footnote./pp class=standardWith two paragraphs./p/div Rest of paragraph./p That is invalid. Whereas if you replace p with div it is fine. Which p? The inner one? Yes. No p inside p. Most browsers will allow it, but when Firefox is in a strict XHTML mode, it simply refuses to load the document. And you have to be in that mode, in Firefox, at least, in order to use MathML. I suspect that the ePub converters would reject it as well. For what it's worth, really solving the problem of footnotes inside headings (div not allowed inside h2, e.g.) may require enough machinery to do this too. The div paragraphs inside the footnote (which now has to be treated as span) won't be permitted either. What is the difference between div and span in in this case? Span is more or less allowed everywhere. Of course, span is by default inline. But you can get it to act like a div by setting display:block in CSS. Cheating, no doubt. Rethinking how footnotes should be handled is one aspect of the summer's GSoC work. Richard
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On Thu, 06 Jun 2013 10:33:23 -0400 Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote: On 06/06/2013 10:22 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: 06/06/2013 16:02, Richard Heck: It would be nice to document what the reason really was. I agree with Steve that outputting propper HTML is very important, in particular if we plan to import it in other formats. The use of div for paragraphs is not unusual. One sees it quite alot on the web. I can also find lots of interesting MSword documenta on the web :) It is a matter of semantics http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2226562/what-is-the-difference-between-p-and-div Yes, I know, but especially with auto-generated documents, the use of p causes problems, which is why people avoid it. Here's an example of what led to this: p class=standardThis is a paragraph.div class=footnotep class=standardThis is a footnote./pp class=standardWith two paragraphs./p/div Rest of paragraph./p That is invalid. Whereas if you replace p with div it is fine. Again, we could try to detect this, but it's hard to know how to do it without making assumptions. What if someone did use div for Standard? Then there is nothing to detect. It starts to feel like we need to code the entire DTD and check everything we do against it. For what it's worth, really solving the problem of footnotes inside headings (div not allowed inside h2, e.g.) may require enough machinery to do this too. The div paragraphs inside the footnote (which now has to be treated as span) won't be permitted either. Thanks Richard, It all makes perfect sense now. The operative principle here is that the perfect is the enemy of the good. If the developers had gone for perfection (use of p instead of div), a converter that handled multiparagraph footnotes never would have been created, or it would have taken much longer. I completely understand, having made many such choices in the past. It's wonderful that all this can be overridden with layouts or modules (which I've never used). I'm going to read up on the docs you recommended, and see if *for my purposes, where I don't use footnotes*, I can change it to p and map the various styles to h1 through h6. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On Thu, 06 Jun 2013 10:02:15 -0400 Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote: On 06/06/2013 09:54 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: 06/06/2013 15:47, Richard Heck: That said, the reason it is done this way is because the default layout, Standard, is used inside other kinds of things, where p would not be allowed. At least, I seem to remember that is why I did it that way. It would be nice to document what the reason really was. I agree with Steve that outputting propper HTML is very important, in particular if we plan to import it in other formats. The use of div for paragraphs is not unusual. One sees it quite alot on the web. I suppose it would be possible to test, as we do output, for the case when we are embedded in some context where p is not allowed. That could be filed as a bug. And what about h1/h2/h3... ? This was just wrong. h1 is used for both part and chapter, with different classes. h2 is used for sections, h3 for subsections, etc. See stdsections.inc for the details, all of which, again, can be modified via layout. How would I override the stdsections.inc styles' HTMLTag in my layout? My layout files don't define styles already given me by LyX's book style, but instead just add new styles. What would be the quickest, easiest way within a layout file to modify HTMLTag for Standard, Part, Section, Subsection, SubSubSection, Paragraph and SubParagraph? Could I do something like this Assuming starting with the Article document class and not using Part: Style Section CopyStyle Section HTMLTag h1 End Style Standard CopyStyle Standard HTMLTag p End Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
Hi all, I decided to try my hand at using LyX to quickly write web pages. When I converted to either LyXHTML or HTML, the result delineated paragraphs not with p, but with div. That's certainly not how I want my websites to be written. To me, div is a description of appearance: fingerpainting. To me, p is a description of functionality, which is what I want. p can have class=mystyle just like div can, with CSS defining what mystyle looks like. So I'm not sure what's gained by using div for all paragraphs. Similarly, a casual perusal of the output looks to me like all headings are h1 with different classes part, section, etc. This also casts aside HTML's natural structure and meanings, keeping the appearance. Of course, to map part/chapter/section/subsection/subsubsection/paragraph to HTML's h1 thru h6 would require an outside mapping, but I think a knowledgeable author could make that mapping in five minutes. None of this is vital to me. I can always make a Vim script that replaces div with p, replaces h1 with the proper h? level depending on the class, etc. I'm just curious why it was chosen, both by export to HTML and export to LyXHTML, to map to HTML appearance instead of HTML structure. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/06/2013 08:34 AM, Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, I decided to try my hand at using LyX to quickly write web pages. When I converted to either LyXHTML or HTML, the result delineated paragraphs not with p, but with div. That's certainly not how I want my websites to be written. To me, div is a description of appearance: fingerpainting. To me, p is a description of functionality, which is what I want. p can have class=mystyle just like div can, with CSS defining what mystyle looks like. So I'm not sure what's gained by using div for all paragraphs. Similarly, a casual perusal of the output looks to me like all headings are h1 with different classes part, section, etc. This also casts aside HTML's natural structure and meanings, keeping the appearance. Of course, to map part/chapter/section/subsection/subsubsection/paragraph to HTML's h1 thru h6 would require an outside mapping, but I think a knowledgeable author could make that mapping in five minutes. None of this is vital to me. I can always make a Vim script that replaces div with p, replaces h1 with the proper h? level depending on the class, etc. I'm just curious why it was chosen, both by export to HTML and export to LyXHTML, to map to HTML appearance instead of HTML structure. Almost all such things can be modified via layout. In this case: Style Standard HTMLTag p End Put it in local layout, a module, whatever you want, and more generally see section 5.4 of the Customization manual. That said, the reason it is done this way is because the default layout, Standard, is used inside other kinds of things, where p would not be allowed. At least, I seem to remember that is why I did it that way. There is actually a similar problem now with footnotes, which are formatted via div, which is not allowed, e.g., in a heading. Richard
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
06/06/2013 15:47, Richard Heck: That said, the reason it is done this way is because the default layout, Standard, is used inside other kinds of things, where p would not be allowed. At least, I seem to remember that is why I did it that way. It would be nice to document what the reason really was. I agree with Steve that outputting propper HTML is very important, in particular if we plan to import it in other formats. And what about h1/h2/h3... ? JMarc
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/06/2013 09:54 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: 06/06/2013 15:47, Richard Heck: That said, the reason it is done this way is because the default layout, Standard, is used inside other kinds of things, where p would not be allowed. At least, I seem to remember that is why I did it that way. It would be nice to document what the reason really was. I agree with Steve that outputting propper HTML is very important, in particular if we plan to import it in other formats. The use of div for paragraphs is not unusual. One sees it quite alot on the web. I suppose it would be possible to test, as we do output, for the case when we are embedded in some context where p is not allowed. That could be filed as a bug. And what about h1/h2/h3... ? This was just wrong. h1 is used for both part and chapter, with different classes. h2 is used for sections, h3 for subsections, etc. See stdsections.inc for the details, all of which, again, can be modified via layout. Richard
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
06/06/2013 16:02, Richard Heck: It would be nice to document what the reason really was. I agree with Steve that outputting propper HTML is very important, in particular if we plan to import it in other formats. The use of div for paragraphs is not unusual. One sees it quite alot on the web. I can also find lots of interesting MSword documenta on the web :) It is a matter of semantics http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2226562/what-is-the-difference-between-p-and-div [do philosophers care about semantics?] And what about h1/h2/h3... ? This was just wrong. h1 is used for both part and chapter, with different classes. h2 is used for sections, h3 for subsections, etc. See stdsections.inc for the details, all of which, again, can be modified via layout. Good. JMarc
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/06/2013 10:22 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: 06/06/2013 16:02, Richard Heck: It would be nice to document what the reason really was. I agree with Steve that outputting propper HTML is very important, in particular if we plan to import it in other formats. The use of div for paragraphs is not unusual. One sees it quite alot on the web. I can also find lots of interesting MSword documenta on the web :) It is a matter of semantics http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2226562/what-is-the-difference-between-p-and-div Yes, I know, but especially with auto-generated documents, the use of p causes problems, which is why people avoid it. Here's an example of what led to this: p class=standardThis is a paragraph.div class=footnotep class=standardThis is a footnote./pp class=standardWith two paragraphs./p/div Rest of paragraph./p That is invalid. Whereas if you replace p with div it is fine. Again, we could try to detect this, but it's hard to know how to do it without making assumptions. What if someone did use div for Standard? Then there is nothing to detect. It starts to feel like we need to code the entire DTD and check everything we do against it. For what it's worth, really solving the problem of footnotes inside headings (div not allowed inside h2, e.g.) may require enough machinery to do this too. The div paragraphs inside the footnote (which now has to be treated as span) won't be permitted either. Richard
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
06/06/2013 16:33, Richard Heck: Here's an example of what led to this: p class=standardThis is a paragraph.div class=footnotep class=standardThis is a footnote./pp class=standardWith two paragraphs./p/div Rest of paragraph./p That is invalid. Whereas if you replace p with div it is fine. Which p? The inner one? Again, we could try to detect this, but it's hard to know how to do it without making assumptions. What if someone did use div for Standard? Then there is nothing to detect. It starts to feel like we need to code the entire DTD and check everything we do against it. This is not nice indeed. For what it's worth, really solving the problem of footnotes inside headings (div not allowed inside h2, e.g.) may require enough machinery to do this too. The div paragraphs inside the footnote (which now has to be treated as span) won't be permitted either. What is the difference between div and span in in this case? JMarc
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On 06/06/2013 12:21 PM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: 06/06/2013 16:33, Richard Heck: Here's an example of what led to this: p class=standardThis is a paragraph.div class=footnotep class=standardThis is a footnote./pp class=standardWith two paragraphs./p/div Rest of paragraph./p That is invalid. Whereas if you replace p with div it is fine. Which p? The inner one? Yes. No p inside p. Most browsers will allow it, but when Firefox is in a strict XHTML mode, it simply refuses to load the document. And you have to be in that mode, in Firefox, at least, in order to use MathML. I suspect that the ePub converters would reject it as well. For what it's worth, really solving the problem of footnotes inside headings (div not allowed inside h2, e.g.) may require enough machinery to do this too. The div paragraphs inside the footnote (which now has to be treated as span) won't be permitted either. What is the difference between div and span in in this case? Span is more or less allowed everywhere. Of course, span is by default inline. But you can get it to act like a div by setting display:block in CSS. Cheating, no doubt. Rethinking how footnotes should be handled is one aspect of the summer's GSoC work. Richard
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On Thu, 06 Jun 2013 10:33:23 -0400 Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote: On 06/06/2013 10:22 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: 06/06/2013 16:02, Richard Heck: It would be nice to document what the reason really was. I agree with Steve that outputting propper HTML is very important, in particular if we plan to import it in other formats. The use of div for paragraphs is not unusual. One sees it quite alot on the web. I can also find lots of interesting MSword documenta on the web :) It is a matter of semantics http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2226562/what-is-the-difference-between-p-and-div Yes, I know, but especially with auto-generated documents, the use of p causes problems, which is why people avoid it. Here's an example of what led to this: p class=standardThis is a paragraph.div class=footnotep class=standardThis is a footnote./pp class=standardWith two paragraphs./p/div Rest of paragraph./p That is invalid. Whereas if you replace p with div it is fine. Again, we could try to detect this, but it's hard to know how to do it without making assumptions. What if someone did use div for Standard? Then there is nothing to detect. It starts to feel like we need to code the entire DTD and check everything we do against it. For what it's worth, really solving the problem of footnotes inside headings (div not allowed inside h2, e.g.) may require enough machinery to do this too. The div paragraphs inside the footnote (which now has to be treated as span) won't be permitted either. Thanks Richard, It all makes perfect sense now. The operative principle here is that the perfect is the enemy of the good. If the developers had gone for perfection (use of p instead of div), a converter that handled multiparagraph footnotes never would have been created, or it would have taken much longer. I completely understand, having made many such choices in the past. It's wonderful that all this can be overridden with layouts or modules (which I've never used). I'm going to read up on the docs you recommended, and see if *for my purposes, where I don't use footnotes*, I can change it to p and map the various styles to h1 through h6. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Re: Why div in HTML exports instead of p?
On Thu, 06 Jun 2013 10:02:15 -0400 Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote: On 06/06/2013 09:54 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: 06/06/2013 15:47, Richard Heck: That said, the reason it is done this way is because the default layout, Standard, is used inside other kinds of things, where p would not be allowed. At least, I seem to remember that is why I did it that way. It would be nice to document what the reason really was. I agree with Steve that outputting propper HTML is very important, in particular if we plan to import it in other formats. The use of div for paragraphs is not unusual. One sees it quite alot on the web. I suppose it would be possible to test, as we do output, for the case when we are embedded in some context where p is not allowed. That could be filed as a bug. And what about h1/h2/h3... ? This was just wrong. h1 is used for both part and chapter, with different classes. h2 is used for sections, h3 for subsections, etc. See stdsections.inc for the details, all of which, again, can be modified via layout. How would I override the stdsections.inc styles' HTMLTag in my layout? My layout files don't define styles already given me by LyX's book style, but instead just add new styles. What would be the quickest, easiest way within a layout file to modify HTMLTag for Standard, Part, Section, Subsection, SubSubSection, Paragraph and SubParagraph? Could I do something like this Assuming starting with the Article document class and not using Part: Style Section CopyStyle Section HTMLTag h1 End Style Standard CopyStyle Standard HTMLTag p End Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
