Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-17 Thread Ray Rashif
On 4 April 2013 07:11, Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:
 On 04/03/2013 04:41 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:


 Alex Vergara Gil wrote:

 I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should
 be some package for this in the nokia library!).

 Pavel Sanda wrote:
 No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that Qt team at one point stopped
 developing
 the control due to Microsoft licensing.
 This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around
 in 90s
 and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI.

 Pavel



 Yes indeed, this sounds like we should not be able to build frames at all
 because they look like Microsoft´s Windows and these are licensed by
 Microsoft ;) so what kind of things are legal or not? This point puts even
 more fuzzy to my logic! I thougth graphic design as long as it is not equal
 are not the same and we can make the ribbon as different as we want, just
 keeping the idea and even better, instead of putting it in the top we can
 put then at the left so we can avoid the vertical space eating that Jacob
 mentioned.


 Though one can put it this way: Nokia decided they did not wish to spend a
 gazillion dollars fighting a patent case, even if they might win it in the
 end, and even if Microsoft's patent makes about as much sense as the old
 joke that they would eventually patent 0 and 1.

 Remember: Apple got a design patent for a rectangle with rounded corners,
 and they won a patent infringement suit against Samsung. Really.

 That's the sad state of US patent law.

Hi guys this might be an interesting example of something like those
ribbon menus on Linux (with Qt):

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/wps-office-for-linux-looks-like-microsoft-office-but-isnt

The Qt suite apes the interface of Microsoft’s ‘Ribbon’ interface,
and whilst I can’t tell you whether it’s 100% accurate in its
replication (I haven’t used Microsoft Office long enough to tell),
it’s certainly authentic looking.

Just thought I'd share this -- not that I particularly love this kind
of UI (I don't dislike it either). I work extensively cross-platform
and sometimes with very old hardware/software as well so I tend to
adapt wherever needed without much trouble, so to say.


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-17 Thread Ray Rashif
On 4 April 2013 07:11, Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:
 On 04/03/2013 04:41 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:


 Alex Vergara Gil wrote:

 I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should
 be some package for this in the nokia library!).

 Pavel Sanda wrote:
 No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that Qt team at one point stopped
 developing
 the control due to Microsoft licensing.
 This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around
 in 90s
 and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI.

 Pavel



 Yes indeed, this sounds like we should not be able to build frames at all
 because they look like Microsoft´s Windows and these are licensed by
 Microsoft ;) so what kind of things are legal or not? This point puts even
 more fuzzy to my logic! I thougth graphic design as long as it is not equal
 are not the same and we can make the ribbon as different as we want, just
 keeping the idea and even better, instead of putting it in the top we can
 put then at the left so we can avoid the vertical space eating that Jacob
 mentioned.


 Though one can put it this way: Nokia decided they did not wish to spend a
 gazillion dollars fighting a patent case, even if they might win it in the
 end, and even if Microsoft's patent makes about as much sense as the old
 joke that they would eventually patent 0 and 1.

 Remember: Apple got a design patent for a rectangle with rounded corners,
 and they won a patent infringement suit against Samsung. Really.

 That's the sad state of US patent law.

Hi guys this might be an interesting example of something like those
ribbon menus on Linux (with Qt):

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/wps-office-for-linux-looks-like-microsoft-office-but-isnt

The Qt suite apes the interface of Microsoft’s ‘Ribbon’ interface,
and whilst I can’t tell you whether it’s 100% accurate in its
replication (I haven’t used Microsoft Office long enough to tell),
it’s certainly authentic looking.

Just thought I'd share this -- not that I particularly love this kind
of UI (I don't dislike it either). I work extensively cross-platform
and sometimes with very old hardware/software as well so I tend to
adapt wherever needed without much trouble, so to say.


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-17 Thread Ray Rashif
On 4 April 2013 07:11, Richard Heck  wrote:
> On 04/03/2013 04:41 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Alex Vergara Gil wrote:

 I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should
 be some package for this in the nokia library!).
>>>
>>> Pavel Sanda wrote:
>>> No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that "Qt team at one point stopped
>>> developing
>>> the control due to Microsoft licensing."
>>> This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around
>>> in 90s
>>> and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI.
>>>
>>> Pavel
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yes indeed, this sounds like we should not be able to build frames at all
>> because they look like Microsoft´s Windows and these are licensed by
>> Microsoft ;) so what kind of things are legal or not? This point puts even
>> more fuzzy to my logic! I thougth graphic design as long as it is not equal
>> are not the same and we can make the ribbon as different as we want, just
>> keeping the idea and even better, instead of putting it in the top we can
>> put then at the left so we can avoid the vertical space eating that Jacob
>> mentioned.
>
>
> Though one can put it this way: Nokia decided they did not wish to spend a
> gazillion dollars fighting a patent case, even if they might win it in the
> end, and even if Microsoft's patent makes about as much sense as the old
> joke that they would eventually patent 0 and 1.
>
> Remember: Apple got a design patent for a rectangle with rounded corners,
> and they won a patent infringement suit against Samsung. Really.
>
> That's the sad state of US patent law.

Hi guys this might be an interesting example of something like those
ribbon menus on Linux (with Qt):

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/wps-office-for-linux-looks-like-microsoft-office-but-isnt

"The Qt suite apes the interface of Microsoft’s ‘Ribbon’ interface,
and whilst I can’t tell you whether it’s 100% accurate in its
replication (I haven’t used Microsoft Office long enough to tell),
it’s certainly authentic looking."

Just thought I'd share this -- not that I particularly love this kind
of UI (I don't dislike it either). I work extensively cross-platform
and sometimes with very old hardware/software as well so I tend to
adapt wherever needed without much trouble, so to say.


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread EK

  
  
PLEASE DO NOT CONSIDER RIBBON MENUS-- they are (one of the
many) reason(s) I switched from MS-WORD to Lyx in the first place!
They hide what you are looking for!

Ehud Kaplan


On 04/07/2013 04:05 PM, Clemens
  Eisserer wrote:


  
   Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.
  
  
  This is also my personal oppinion.
  I have to use Office-2010 sometimes, and whenever I can I revert
  to LibreOffice mostly because of the awkward UI ms office has.
  
  
  Regards




  



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread katsumi liquer
As someone who routinely uses LyX on different platforms between Mac OS X
and Windows 7 I just wanted to say that I think the LyX interface is
beautiful. It strikes a great balance of feeling native and attractive on
all platforms in my opinion, and with the higher resolutions many displays
have these days I can keep all the toolbars turned out without any issues.

OT:

LyX has really been a transformative tool for me -- I went from being
miserable and suffering in other word processors to being proficient and
passionate about my work again because I feel LyX helps the user be
organized and productive rather than working against them.

Thank you LyX developers, you have made an absolutely spectacular tool and
your efforts are hugely appreciated!

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:52 AM, EK ehud.kap...@gmail.com wrote:

  *PLEASE DO NOT CONSIDER RIBBON MENUS-*- they are (one of the many)
 reason(s) I switched from MS-WORD to Lyx in the first place!
 They hide what you are looking for!

 Ehud Kaplan



 On 04/07/2013 04:05 PM, Clemens Eisserer wrote:

  Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.

 This is also my personal oppinion.
 I have to use Office-2010 sometimes, and whenever I can I revert to
 LibreOffice mostly because of the awkward UI ms office has.


 Regards






Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread Nico Williams
Since we're piling on...

I don't mind the sort of ribbon menu as they've evolved to be at MSFT,
but I do prefer pull-down menus with *text* instead of icons.  I'm a
textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible.  I'd even
like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like
search to be as powerful as possible.  I'm so text-oriented that I'd
rather you add vi keybindings than ribbon menus.

Still, that said, if you organize the implementation cleverly, then
you could easily give the user the option of traditional vs. ribbon
menus.  I don't care if you do implement the option for ribbon menus
but it strikes me as a good idea to organize the implementation such
that you *can* add the option with minimal effort later.

Nico
--


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread Liviu Andronic
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote:
 textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible.  I'd even
 like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like

That's a good idea and easy to pull-off: Put in a search box that will
filter UI-elements given a keyword. Similar to what we do in Settings
and in outline.

Liviu


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread Nico Williams
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote:
 textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible.  I'd even
 like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like

 That's a good idea and easy to pull-off: Put in a search box that will
 filter UI-elements given a keyword. Similar to what we do in Settings
 and in outline.

OK, well, while we're at it, here's another thing I'd like: to be able
to create my own menus and toolbars, and this probably (oddly enough,
for me) graphically by dragging things into custom menus/toolbars.  In
particular I use custom insets a fair bit, so I'd like to make use of
custom insets much easier than now.

Nico
--


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread Liviu Andronic
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 9:46 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote:
 textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible.  I'd even
 like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like

 That's a good idea and easy to pull-off: Put in a search box that will
 filter UI-elements given a keyword. Similar to what we do in Settings
 and in outline.

 OK, well, while we're at it, here's another thing I'd like: to be able
 to create my own menus and toolbars, and this probably (oddly enough,
 for me) graphically by dragging things into custom menus/toolbars.  In
 particular I use custom insets a fair bit, so I'd like to make use of
 custom insets much easier than now.

This could be made part of the Toolbar customization dialog (
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc6 ) project for
GSoC 2013. If only we had a mentor and a student for the project.

Liviu


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread EK

  
  
PLEASE DO NOT CONSIDER RIBBON MENUS-- they are (one of the
many) reason(s) I switched from MS-WORD to Lyx in the first place!
They hide what you are looking for!

Ehud Kaplan


On 04/07/2013 04:05 PM, Clemens
  Eisserer wrote:


  
   Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.
  
  
  This is also my personal oppinion.
  I have to use Office-2010 sometimes, and whenever I can I revert
  to LibreOffice mostly because of the awkward UI ms office has.
  
  
  Regards




  



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread katsumi liquer
As someone who routinely uses LyX on different platforms between Mac OS X
and Windows 7 I just wanted to say that I think the LyX interface is
beautiful. It strikes a great balance of feeling native and attractive on
all platforms in my opinion, and with the higher resolutions many displays
have these days I can keep all the toolbars turned out without any issues.

OT:

LyX has really been a transformative tool for me -- I went from being
miserable and suffering in other word processors to being proficient and
passionate about my work again because I feel LyX helps the user be
organized and productive rather than working against them.

Thank you LyX developers, you have made an absolutely spectacular tool and
your efforts are hugely appreciated!

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:52 AM, EK ehud.kap...@gmail.com wrote:

  *PLEASE DO NOT CONSIDER RIBBON MENUS-*- they are (one of the many)
 reason(s) I switched from MS-WORD to Lyx in the first place!
 They hide what you are looking for!

 Ehud Kaplan



 On 04/07/2013 04:05 PM, Clemens Eisserer wrote:

  Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.

 This is also my personal oppinion.
 I have to use Office-2010 sometimes, and whenever I can I revert to
 LibreOffice mostly because of the awkward UI ms office has.


 Regards






Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread Nico Williams
Since we're piling on...

I don't mind the sort of ribbon menu as they've evolved to be at MSFT,
but I do prefer pull-down menus with *text* instead of icons.  I'm a
textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible.  I'd even
like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like
search to be as powerful as possible.  I'm so text-oriented that I'd
rather you add vi keybindings than ribbon menus.

Still, that said, if you organize the implementation cleverly, then
you could easily give the user the option of traditional vs. ribbon
menus.  I don't care if you do implement the option for ribbon menus
but it strikes me as a good idea to organize the implementation such
that you *can* add the option with minimal effort later.

Nico
--


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread Liviu Andronic
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote:
 textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible.  I'd even
 like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like

That's a good idea and easy to pull-off: Put in a search box that will
filter UI-elements given a keyword. Similar to what we do in Settings
and in outline.

Liviu


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread Nico Williams
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote:
 textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible.  I'd even
 like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like

 That's a good idea and easy to pull-off: Put in a search box that will
 filter UI-elements given a keyword. Similar to what we do in Settings
 and in outline.

OK, well, while we're at it, here's another thing I'd like: to be able
to create my own menus and toolbars, and this probably (oddly enough,
for me) graphically by dragging things into custom menus/toolbars.  In
particular I use custom insets a fair bit, so I'd like to make use of
custom insets much easier than now.

Nico
--


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread Liviu Andronic
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 9:46 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Nico Williams n...@cryptonector.com wrote:
 textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible.  I'd even
 like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like

 That's a good idea and easy to pull-off: Put in a search box that will
 filter UI-elements given a keyword. Similar to what we do in Settings
 and in outline.

 OK, well, while we're at it, here's another thing I'd like: to be able
 to create my own menus and toolbars, and this probably (oddly enough,
 for me) graphically by dragging things into custom menus/toolbars.  In
 particular I use custom insets a fair bit, so I'd like to make use of
 custom insets much easier than now.

This could be made part of the Toolbar customization dialog (
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc6 ) project for
GSoC 2013. If only we had a mentor and a student for the project.

Liviu


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread EK

  
  
PLEASE DO NOT CONSIDER RIBBON MENUS-- they are (one of the
many) reason(s) I switched from MS-WORD to Lyx in the first place!
They hide what you are looking for!

Ehud Kaplan


On 04/07/2013 04:05 PM, Clemens
  Eisserer wrote:


  
  > Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.
  
  
  This is also my personal oppinion.
  I have to use Office-2010 sometimes, and whenever I can I revert
  to LibreOffice mostly because of the awkward UI ms office has.
  
  
  Regards




  



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread katsumi liquer
As someone who routinely uses LyX on different platforms between Mac OS X
and Windows 7 I just wanted to say that I think the LyX interface is
beautiful. It strikes a great balance of feeling native and attractive on
all platforms in my opinion, and with the higher resolutions many displays
have these days I can keep all the toolbars turned out without any issues.

OT:

LyX has really been a transformative tool for me -- I went from being
miserable and suffering in other word processors to being proficient and
passionate about my work again because I feel LyX helps the user be
organized and productive rather than working against them.

Thank you LyX developers, you have made an absolutely spectacular tool and
your efforts are hugely appreciated!

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:52 AM, EK  wrote:

>  *PLEASE DO NOT CONSIDER RIBBON MENUS-*- they are (one of the many)
> reason(s) I switched from MS-WORD to Lyx in the first place!
> They hide what you are looking for!
>
> Ehud Kaplan
>
>
>
> On 04/07/2013 04:05 PM, Clemens Eisserer wrote:
>
> > Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.
>
> This is also my personal oppinion.
> I have to use Office-2010 sometimes, and whenever I can I revert to
> LibreOffice mostly because of the awkward UI ms office has.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
>


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread Nico Williams
Since we're piling on...

I don't mind the sort of ribbon menu as they've evolved to be at MSFT,
but I do prefer pull-down menus with *text* instead of icons.  I'm a
textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible.  I'd even
like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like
search to be as powerful as possible.  I'm so text-oriented that I'd
rather you add vi keybindings than ribbon menus.

Still, that said, if you organize the implementation cleverly, then
you could easily give the user the option of traditional vs. "ribbon"
menus.  I don't care if you do implement the option for ribbon menus
but it strikes me as a good idea to organize the implementation such
that you *can* add the option with minimal effort later.

Nico
--


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread Liviu Andronic
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Nico Williams  wrote:
> textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible.  I'd even
> like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like
>
That's a good idea and easy to pull-off: Put in a search box that will
filter UI-elements given a keyword. Similar to what we do in Settings
and in outline.

Liviu


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread Nico Williams
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Liviu Andronic  wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Nico Williams  wrote:
>> textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible.  I'd even
>> like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like
>>
> That's a good idea and easy to pull-off: Put in a search box that will
> filter UI-elements given a keyword. Similar to what we do in Settings
> and in outline.

OK, well, while we're at it, here's another thing I'd like: to be able
to create my own menus and toolbars, and this probably (oddly enough,
for me) graphically by dragging things into custom menus/toolbars.  In
particular I use custom insets a fair bit, so I'd like to make use of
custom insets much easier than now.

Nico
--


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-09 Thread Liviu Andronic
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 9:46 PM, Nico Williams  wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Liviu Andronic  wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Nico Williams  wrote:
>>> textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible.  I'd even
>>> like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like
>>>
>> That's a good idea and easy to pull-off: Put in a search box that will
>> filter UI-elements given a keyword. Similar to what we do in Settings
>> and in outline.
>
> OK, well, while we're at it, here's another thing I'd like: to be able
> to create my own menus and toolbars, and this probably (oddly enough,
> for me) graphically by dragging things into custom menus/toolbars.  In
> particular I use custom insets a fair bit, so I'd like to make use of
> custom insets much easier than now.
>
This could be made part of the Toolbar customization dialog (
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc6 ) project for
GSoC 2013. If only we had a mentor and a student for the project.

Liviu


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-07 Thread Wolfgang Keller
 I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you:
 Ribbon Menus.

 What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you?

Anti-ergonomic garbage.

Ribbon menus are a cerebral flatulance emanating from some product
manager's brain at MS.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-07 Thread Wolfgang Keller
  Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.  I find
  them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are
  looking for.  Quite probably they are ok when you get used to them,
  but there is really no need for all to go the M$ way.
 
 This is also my judgement after having being forced to use these
 menus over the past months. But certainly, this is a matter of will
 and personal taste.

It isn't. Even if an empirical one, ergonomics is still a science with
very well established rules. 

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-07 Thread Clemens Eisserer
 Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.

This is also my personal oppinion.
I have to use Office-2010 sometimes, and whenever I can I revert to
LibreOffice mostly because of the awkward UI ms office has.


Regards


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-07 Thread Wolfgang Keller
 I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you:
 Ribbon Menus.

 What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you?

Anti-ergonomic garbage.

Ribbon menus are a cerebral flatulance emanating from some product
manager's brain at MS.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-07 Thread Wolfgang Keller
  Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.  I find
  them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are
  looking for.  Quite probably they are ok when you get used to them,
  but there is really no need for all to go the M$ way.
 
 This is also my judgement after having being forced to use these
 menus over the past months. But certainly, this is a matter of will
 and personal taste.

It isn't. Even if an empirical one, ergonomics is still a science with
very well established rules. 

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-07 Thread Clemens Eisserer
 Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.

This is also my personal oppinion.
I have to use Office-2010 sometimes, and whenever I can I revert to
LibreOffice mostly because of the awkward UI ms office has.


Regards


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-07 Thread Wolfgang Keller
> I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you:
> Ribbon Menus.

> What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you?

Anti-ergonomic garbage.

"Ribbon menus" are a cerebral flatulance emanating from some product
manager's "brain" at MS.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-07 Thread Wolfgang Keller
> > Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.  I find
> > them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are
> > looking for.  Quite probably they are ok when you get used to them,
> > but there is really no need for all to go the M$ way.
> 
> This is also my judgement after having being forced to use these
> menus over the past months. But certainly, this is a matter of will
> and personal taste.

It isn't. Even if an empirical one, ergonomics is still a science with
very well established rules. 

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-07 Thread Clemens Eisserer
> Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.

This is also my personal oppinion.
I have to use Office-2010 sometimes, and whenever I can I revert to
LibreOffice mostly because of the awkward UI ms office has.


Regards


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread John Kane





 From: stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
To: Csikos Bela bcsikos...@freemail.hu 
Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org lyx-users@lists.lyx.org 
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:04:41 AM
Subject: Re: feature request: ribbon menus
 



On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Csikos Bela bcsikos...@freemail.hu wrote:

If ribbon menus is what Windows has in their menus, that is only the first
few items are shown and then you have to click an arrow to make other
menu items visible, 


That used to be what ribbon menus were all about, hence the name.

They no longer have the ribbon-like functionality now, but the name has 
apparently stuck. No wonder you are confused, so is everyone else not working 
on Windows. Here is a link to a Microsoft Word screen shot showing the ribbon:

http://techhelpvideos.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/word-2007_2003-menus.jpg


Ah, I remember them. I had to use Word a few months ago and those ribbons make 
a 10 minute job 30 minutes of hell.  



You'll find a gazillion more on Google Images

In my experience, most people not working on Microsoft Office on a daily basis 
(Mac versions have ribbons too) find them confusing.  I would certainly not 
impose them on Linux/non-Office users.


Cheers,

S.


-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies            Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University                          Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org 

Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread Alex Vergara Gil


- Original Message - 
From: Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com

To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: feature request: ribbon menus



On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:31:07 +0200 (CEST)
Csikos Bela bcsikos...@freemail.hu wrote:


Alex Vergara Gil a...@cphr.edu.cu írta:

Hello developers!

I have a feature request if this is not already 
requested to you: Ribbon Menus.

I don't know what ribbon menus is, and I may not be the only one.
You should have explained it, attached an image, or given a link
where it is explained.


The way I see it, if LyX developers were to have enough time to put in
this UI eye candy, that time would be much better spent, for instance,
finishing the job of making LyX a full outliner that can add, delete,
change and move nodes. Or something else necessary or highly desirable
for someone who actually uses it to create large volumes of content.

Next thing you know, somebody will ask for an io/s looking interface to
match his iPhone.

SteveT


Changes in UI like this one takes to anyone just 1 day, it is just a matter 
of decide to make it or not, however the changes you mentioned take a lot of 
coding and a lot of man-hour work, so the time scale is not comparable.


On the other hand ribbon menus once you get use to them you find your 
productivity increasing, actually LyX has something that is like this: The 
math toolbar, which groups several common operators in just one menu and 
have several menus grouped by functionality. If the ribbon appearance is 
problematic then you can create something like the math toolbar for every 
toolbar and put them in just one toolbar. I see people here who argue with 
this because they would not have everything in front of their eyes, really!! 
then why don´t you complain of not having every single option visible in 
toolbars? What I beg is an UI organization grouping icons by functionality, 
so the resulting toolbar (or ribbon menu) should be smaller and highly 
configurable. Come on people, not only M$ do this, even Apple and there are 
some linux programs that are using a similar approach right now. Static 
toolbars are obsolete in terms of modern GUIs. This request is not for 
beautyness but for increasing productivity.


As I said this is my personal opinion so I migth be wrong, but I haven´t 
received any useful opinion (besides M$ patent) of why not doing such a 
thing just a few user complaining they will affect some how what they feel 
is comfortable. Regarding the patent believe me that if they patent 0s and 
1s then we are definitively lost.:)


Alex






Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread Walter van Holst

On 2013-04-05 16:49, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:


As I said this is my personal opinion so I migth be wrong, but I
haven´t received any useful opinion (besides M$ patent) of why not
doing such a thing just a few user complaining they will affect some
how what they feel is comfortable. Regarding the patent believe me
that if they patent 0s and 1s then we are definitively lost.:)


Several people have responded that ribbon  menus have limited use to 
them, to say the least. I don't think that is a useless opinion.


As someone who spends most of his working hours in Microsoft's ribbon 
menus, allow me to add to the chorus that ribbon menus tend to be 
spiteful and useless. And no, they don't really grow on you. I have no 
idea what flavour of LSD Microsoft's usability experts have been 
consuming, but I hope it is widely available so that if I ever contract 
a terminal disease I'd like to spend my final hours tripping on that 
stuff.


I'd much rather have people spend time on a concurrent user web 
front-end. Or a curses front-end to LyX. Either of these two are more 
likely to serve users well than the bloody ribbon menus.


Regards,

 Walter




Curses front end to LyX: was feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread Steve Litt
On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 17:10:48 +0200
Walter van Holst walter.van.ho...@xs4all.nl wrote:


 Or a curses front-end to LyX. 

Wow. What would *that* look like?

/* Litt can't help getting interested */

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread Alex Vergara Gil


- Original Message - 
From: Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org

To: lyx-de...@lists.lyx.org
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: feature request: ribbon menus




Well, this is an open source project. So if there are no license issues,
everybody who is motivated enough to implement and maintain such an UI is 
of

course allowed to go ahead and propose a patch.

This was my initial intention, but I was exploring in this list to see if 
there are some users who actually want this. Not the case, so the intention 
seems to have wrong fundations. My bad :(



At the moment, nobody seems to be really enthusiastic, so one consequence
could be that you do it yourself (this is actually exactly how I came into 
LyX

development).

Jürgen

I am learning Qt right now but I have some experience developing, especially 
with UI. My concept of a text editor software always include ribbon menus 
and thats why I shout this proposition, but without community acceptance any 
purpose is a nonsense! So next time will be.


Alex



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread John Kane





 From: stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
To: Csikos Bela bcsikos...@freemail.hu 
Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org lyx-users@lists.lyx.org 
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:04:41 AM
Subject: Re: feature request: ribbon menus
 



On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Csikos Bela bcsikos...@freemail.hu wrote:

If ribbon menus is what Windows has in their menus, that is only the first
few items are shown and then you have to click an arrow to make other
menu items visible, 


That used to be what ribbon menus were all about, hence the name.

They no longer have the ribbon-like functionality now, but the name has 
apparently stuck. No wonder you are confused, so is everyone else not working 
on Windows. Here is a link to a Microsoft Word screen shot showing the ribbon:

http://techhelpvideos.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/word-2007_2003-menus.jpg


Ah, I remember them. I had to use Word a few months ago and those ribbons make 
a 10 minute job 30 minutes of hell.  



You'll find a gazillion more on Google Images

In my experience, most people not working on Microsoft Office on a daily basis 
(Mac versions have ribbons too) find them confusing.  I would certainly not 
impose them on Linux/non-Office users.


Cheers,

S.


-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies            Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University                          Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org 

Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread Alex Vergara Gil


- Original Message - 
From: Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com

To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: feature request: ribbon menus



On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:31:07 +0200 (CEST)
Csikos Bela bcsikos...@freemail.hu wrote:


Alex Vergara Gil a...@cphr.edu.cu írta:

Hello developers!

I have a feature request if this is not already 
requested to you: Ribbon Menus.

I don't know what ribbon menus is, and I may not be the only one.
You should have explained it, attached an image, or given a link
where it is explained.


The way I see it, if LyX developers were to have enough time to put in
this UI eye candy, that time would be much better spent, for instance,
finishing the job of making LyX a full outliner that can add, delete,
change and move nodes. Or something else necessary or highly desirable
for someone who actually uses it to create large volumes of content.

Next thing you know, somebody will ask for an io/s looking interface to
match his iPhone.

SteveT


Changes in UI like this one takes to anyone just 1 day, it is just a matter 
of decide to make it or not, however the changes you mentioned take a lot of 
coding and a lot of man-hour work, so the time scale is not comparable.


On the other hand ribbon menus once you get use to them you find your 
productivity increasing, actually LyX has something that is like this: The 
math toolbar, which groups several common operators in just one menu and 
have several menus grouped by functionality. If the ribbon appearance is 
problematic then you can create something like the math toolbar for every 
toolbar and put them in just one toolbar. I see people here who argue with 
this because they would not have everything in front of their eyes, really!! 
then why don´t you complain of not having every single option visible in 
toolbars? What I beg is an UI organization grouping icons by functionality, 
so the resulting toolbar (or ribbon menu) should be smaller and highly 
configurable. Come on people, not only M$ do this, even Apple and there are 
some linux programs that are using a similar approach right now. Static 
toolbars are obsolete in terms of modern GUIs. This request is not for 
beautyness but for increasing productivity.


As I said this is my personal opinion so I migth be wrong, but I haven´t 
received any useful opinion (besides M$ patent) of why not doing such a 
thing just a few user complaining they will affect some how what they feel 
is comfortable. Regarding the patent believe me that if they patent 0s and 
1s then we are definitively lost.:)


Alex






Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread Walter van Holst

On 2013-04-05 16:49, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:


As I said this is my personal opinion so I migth be wrong, but I
haven´t received any useful opinion (besides M$ patent) of why not
doing such a thing just a few user complaining they will affect some
how what they feel is comfortable. Regarding the patent believe me
that if they patent 0s and 1s then we are definitively lost.:)


Several people have responded that ribbon  menus have limited use to 
them, to say the least. I don't think that is a useless opinion.


As someone who spends most of his working hours in Microsoft's ribbon 
menus, allow me to add to the chorus that ribbon menus tend to be 
spiteful and useless. And no, they don't really grow on you. I have no 
idea what flavour of LSD Microsoft's usability experts have been 
consuming, but I hope it is widely available so that if I ever contract 
a terminal disease I'd like to spend my final hours tripping on that 
stuff.


I'd much rather have people spend time on a concurrent user web 
front-end. Or a curses front-end to LyX. Either of these two are more 
likely to serve users well than the bloody ribbon menus.


Regards,

 Walter




Curses front end to LyX: was feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread Steve Litt
On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 17:10:48 +0200
Walter van Holst walter.van.ho...@xs4all.nl wrote:


 Or a curses front-end to LyX. 

Wow. What would *that* look like?

/* Litt can't help getting interested */

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread Alex Vergara Gil


- Original Message - 
From: Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org

To: lyx-de...@lists.lyx.org
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: feature request: ribbon menus




Well, this is an open source project. So if there are no license issues,
everybody who is motivated enough to implement and maintain such an UI is 
of

course allowed to go ahead and propose a patch.

This was my initial intention, but I was exploring in this list to see if 
there are some users who actually want this. Not the case, so the intention 
seems to have wrong fundations. My bad :(



At the moment, nobody seems to be really enthusiastic, so one consequence
could be that you do it yourself (this is actually exactly how I came into 
LyX

development).

Jürgen

I am learning Qt right now but I have some experience developing, especially 
with UI. My concept of a text editor software always include ribbon menus 
and thats why I shout this proposition, but without community acceptance any 
purpose is a nonsense! So next time will be.


Alex



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread John Kane





 From: stefano franchi <stefano.fran...@gmail.com>
To: Csikos Bela <bcsikos...@freemail.hu> 
Cc: "lyx-users@lists.lyx.org" <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org> 
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:04:41 AM
Subject: Re: feature request: ribbon menus
 



On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Csikos Bela <bcsikos...@freemail.hu> wrote:

If ribbon menus is what Windows has in their menus, that is only the first
>few items are shown and then you have to click an arrow to make other
>menu items visible, 
>

That used to be what ribbon menus were all about, hence the name.

They no longer have the "ribbon-like" functionality now, but the name has 
apparently stuck. No wonder you are confused, so is everyone else not working 
on Windows. Here is a link to a Microsoft Word screen shot showing the ribbon:

http://techhelpvideos.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/word-2007_2003-menus.jpg


Ah, I remember them. I had to use Word a few months ago and those ribbons make 
a 10 minute job 30 minutes of hell.  



You'll find a gazillion more on Google Images

In my experience, most people not working on Microsoft Office on a daily basis 
(Mac versions have ribbons too) find them confusing.  I would certainly not 
impose them on Linux/non-Office users.


Cheers,

S.


-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies            Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University                          Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org 

Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread Alex Vergara Gil


- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Litt" <sl...@troubleshooters.com>

To: <lyx-users@lists.lyx.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: feature request: ribbon menus



On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:31:07 +0200 (CEST)
Csikos Bela <bcsikos...@freemail.hu> wrote:


Alex Vergara Gil <a...@cphr.edu.cu> írta:

>Hello developers!
>
>I have a feature request if this is not already >
>requested to you: Ribbon Menus.>

I don't know what ribbon menus is, and I may not be the only one.
You should have explained it, attached an image, or given a link
where it is explained.


The way I see it, if LyX developers were to have enough time to put in
this UI eye candy, that time would be much better spent, for instance,
finishing the job of making LyX a full outliner that can add, delete,
change and move nodes. Or something else necessary or highly desirable
for someone who actually uses it to create large volumes of content.

Next thing you know, somebody will ask for an io/s looking interface to
match his iPhone.

SteveT


Changes in UI like this one takes to anyone just 1 day, it is just a matter 
of decide to make it or not, however the changes you mentioned take a lot of 
coding and a lot of man-hour work, so the time scale is not comparable.


On the other hand ribbon menus once you get use to them you find your 
productivity increasing, actually LyX has something that is like this: "The 
math toolbar", which groups several common operators in just one menu and 
have several menus grouped by functionality. If the ribbon appearance is 
problematic then you can create something like the math toolbar for every 
toolbar and put them in just one toolbar. I see people here who argue with 
this because they would not have everything in front of their eyes, really!! 
then why don´t you complain of not having every single option visible in 
toolbars? What I beg is an UI organization grouping icons by functionality, 
so the resulting toolbar (or ribbon menu) should be smaller and highly 
configurable. Come on people, not only M$ do this, even Apple and there are 
some linux programs that are using a similar approach right now. Static 
toolbars are obsolete in terms of modern GUIs. This request is not for 
beautyness but for increasing productivity.


As I said this is my personal opinion so I migth be wrong, but I haven´t 
received any useful opinion (besides M$ patent) of why not doing such a 
thing just a few user complaining they will affect some how what they feel 
is comfortable. Regarding the patent believe me that if they patent 0s and 
1s then we are definitively lost.:)


Alex






Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread Walter van Holst

On 2013-04-05 16:49, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:


As I said this is my personal opinion so I migth be wrong, but I
haven´t received any useful opinion (besides M$ patent) of why not
doing such a thing just a few user complaining they will affect some
how what they feel is comfortable. Regarding the patent believe me
that if they patent 0s and 1s then we are definitively lost.:)


Several people have responded that ribbon  menus have limited use to 
them, to say the least. I don't think that is a useless opinion.


As someone who spends most of his working hours in Microsoft's ribbon 
menus, allow me to add to the chorus that ribbon menus tend to be 
spiteful and useless. And no, they don't really grow on you. I have no 
idea what flavour of LSD Microsoft's usability experts have been 
consuming, but I hope it is widely available so that if I ever contract 
a terminal disease I'd like to spend my final hours tripping on that 
stuff.


I'd much rather have people spend time on a concurrent user web 
front-end. Or a curses front-end to LyX. Either of these two are more 
likely to serve users well than the bloody ribbon menus.


Regards,

 Walter




Curses front end to LyX: was feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread Steve Litt
On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 17:10:48 +0200
Walter van Holst  wrote:


> Or a curses front-end to LyX. 

Wow. What would *that* look like?

/* Litt can't help getting interested */

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-05 Thread Alex Vergara Gil


- Original Message - 
From: "Jürgen Spitzmüller" <sp...@lyx.org>

To: <lyx-de...@lists.lyx.org>
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: feature request: ribbon menus




Well, this is an open source project. So if there are no license issues,
everybody who is motivated enough to implement and maintain such an UI is 
of

course allowed to go ahead and propose a patch.

This was my initial intention, but I was exploring in this list to see if 
there are some users who actually want this. Not the case, so the intention 
seems to have wrong fundations. My bad :(



At the moment, nobody seems to be really enthusiastic, so one consequence
could be that you do it yourself (this is actually exactly how I came into 
LyX

development).

Jürgen

I am learning Qt right now but I have some experience developing, especially 
with UI. My concept of a text editor software always include ribbon menus 
and thats why I shout this proposition, but without community acceptance any 
purpose is a nonsense! So next time will be.


Alex



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Juha Meriluoto
On 3.4.2013 19:20, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
 Hello developers!
  
 I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: Ribbon
 Menus.
  
 The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and icon
 menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the icon
 menus. This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI graphic
 design. This modern approach is the best to maximize functionality and
 avoid duplicating functionality. I don´t know if thi request can be made
 inside Qt (I think there should be some package for this in the nokia
 library!).
  
 What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you?
  
 Best Regards
  
 Alex

Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.  I find
them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are looking
for.  Quite probably they are ok when you get used to them, but there is
really no need for all to go the M$ way.

Just my 2 cents,

 - Juha





Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Jürgen Spitzmüller
Juha Meriluoto wrote:
 Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.  I find
 them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are looking
 for.  Quite probably they are ok when you get used to them, but there is
 really no need for all to go the M$ way.

This is also my judgement after having being forced to use these menus over 
the past months. But certainly, this is a matter of will and personal taste.

Anyway, since those menus seem to be a Windows thing only, we would, if we 
could and should, only implement them for the Windows OS.

Jürgen


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Charlie
 On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:47:25 +0200 Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org
 sent this:

Juha Meriluoto wrote:
 Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.  I find
 them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are
  looking for.  Quite probably they are ok when you get used
  to them, but there is really no need for all to go the M$
  way.

This is also my judgement after having being forced to use these menus
   over the past months. But certainly, this is a matter of will
   and personal taste.

Anyway, since those menus seem to be a Windows thing only, we would,
   if we could and should, only implement them for the Windows OS.

I am of a like mind in this. I have no liking for ribbon menus, I'm
uncertain they are an improvement. I am certain they are not an
improvement for me.

They appear to be fancy for its own sake and not at all clear for quick
use. But then I am not a windows user and therefore use them very
occasionally. Only use them to try to find things for windows users who
also have a problem finding things they want, when using them.

Just my thoughts.
Charlie
-- 
Registered Linux User:- 329524
***

Simplicity doesn't mean to live in misery and poverty. You have
what you need, and you don't want what you don't
need. Charan Singh

***

Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic

-


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Csikos Bela
Alex Vergara Gil a...@cphr.edu.cu írta:

Hello developers!

I have a feature request if this is not already 
requested to you: Ribbon Menus.

I don't know what ribbon menus is, and I may not be the only one.
You should have explained it, attached an image, or given a link where it is 
explained.

The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in 
text menus and icon menus,

That is good. Some prefer icons, some text. I prefer having both text
menus and icons.

 besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating 
the icon menus.

??? I don't understand what you mean by wasted space.
Do you mean the toolbars itself? It is possible to customize the toolbars
and even remove them.

 This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI graphic 
design. This modern approach is the best to maximize functionality and avoid 
duplicating functionality.

Maximizing funcionality by removing alternative approaches?
Are you serious?

If ribbon menus is what Windows has in their menus, that is only the first
few items are shown and then you have to click an arrow to make other
menu items visible, then I don't want anything like that. That menu type
is useless and annoying.

bcsikos



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread stefano franchi
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Csikos Bela bcsikos...@freemail.hu wrote:

 If ribbon menus is what Windows has in their menus, that is only the first
 few items are shown and then you have to click an arrow to make other
 menu items visible,


That used to be what ribbon menus were all about, hence the name.
They no longer have the ribbon-like functionality now, but the name has
apparently stuck. No wonder you are confused, so is everyone else not
working on Windows. Here is a link to a Microsoft Word screen shot showing
the ribbon:

http://techhelpvideos.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/word-2007_2003-menus.jpg

You'll find a gazillion more on Google Images
In my experience, most people not working on Microsoft Office on a daily
basis (Mac versions have ribbons too) find them confusing.  I would
certainly not impose them on Linux/non-Office users.

Cheers,

S.

-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Steve Litt
On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:31:07 +0200 (CEST)
Csikos Bela bcsikos...@freemail.hu wrote:

 Alex Vergara Gil a...@cphr.edu.cu írta:
 
 Hello developers!
 
 I have a feature request if this is not already 
 requested to you: Ribbon Menus.
 
 I don't know what ribbon menus is, and I may not be the only one.
 You should have explained it, attached an image, or given a link
 where it is explained.

The way I see it, if LyX developers were to have enough time to put in
this UI eye candy, that time would be much better spent, for instance,
finishing the job of making LyX a full outliner that can add, delete,
change and move nodes. Or something else necessary or highly desirable
for someone who actually uses it to create large volumes of content.

Next thing you know, somebody will ask for an io/s looking interface to
match his iPhone.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Juha Meriluoto
On 3.4.2013 19:20, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
 Hello developers!
  
 I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: Ribbon
 Menus.
  
 The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and icon
 menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the icon
 menus. This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI graphic
 design. This modern approach is the best to maximize functionality and
 avoid duplicating functionality. I don´t know if thi request can be made
 inside Qt (I think there should be some package for this in the nokia
 library!).
  
 What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you?
  
 Best Regards
  
 Alex

Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.  I find
them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are looking
for.  Quite probably they are ok when you get used to them, but there is
really no need for all to go the M$ way.

Just my 2 cents,

 - Juha





Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Jürgen Spitzmüller
Juha Meriluoto wrote:
 Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.  I find
 them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are looking
 for.  Quite probably they are ok when you get used to them, but there is
 really no need for all to go the M$ way.

This is also my judgement after having being forced to use these menus over 
the past months. But certainly, this is a matter of will and personal taste.

Anyway, since those menus seem to be a Windows thing only, we would, if we 
could and should, only implement them for the Windows OS.

Jürgen


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Charlie
 On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:47:25 +0200 Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org
 sent this:

Juha Meriluoto wrote:
 Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.  I find
 them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are
  looking for.  Quite probably they are ok when you get used
  to them, but there is really no need for all to go the M$
  way.

This is also my judgement after having being forced to use these menus
   over the past months. But certainly, this is a matter of will
   and personal taste.

Anyway, since those menus seem to be a Windows thing only, we would,
   if we could and should, only implement them for the Windows OS.

I am of a like mind in this. I have no liking for ribbon menus, I'm
uncertain they are an improvement. I am certain they are not an
improvement for me.

They appear to be fancy for its own sake and not at all clear for quick
use. But then I am not a windows user and therefore use them very
occasionally. Only use them to try to find things for windows users who
also have a problem finding things they want, when using them.

Just my thoughts.
Charlie
-- 
Registered Linux User:- 329524
***

Simplicity doesn't mean to live in misery and poverty. You have
what you need, and you don't want what you don't
need. Charan Singh

***

Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic

-


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Csikos Bela
Alex Vergara Gil a...@cphr.edu.cu írta:

Hello developers!

I have a feature request if this is not already 
requested to you: Ribbon Menus.

I don't know what ribbon menus is, and I may not be the only one.
You should have explained it, attached an image, or given a link where it is 
explained.

The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in 
text menus and icon menus,

That is good. Some prefer icons, some text. I prefer having both text
menus and icons.

 besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating 
the icon menus.

??? I don't understand what you mean by wasted space.
Do you mean the toolbars itself? It is possible to customize the toolbars
and even remove them.

 This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI graphic 
design. This modern approach is the best to maximize functionality and avoid 
duplicating functionality.

Maximizing funcionality by removing alternative approaches?
Are you serious?

If ribbon menus is what Windows has in their menus, that is only the first
few items are shown and then you have to click an arrow to make other
menu items visible, then I don't want anything like that. That menu type
is useless and annoying.

bcsikos



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread stefano franchi
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Csikos Bela bcsikos...@freemail.hu wrote:

 If ribbon menus is what Windows has in their menus, that is only the first
 few items are shown and then you have to click an arrow to make other
 menu items visible,


That used to be what ribbon menus were all about, hence the name.
They no longer have the ribbon-like functionality now, but the name has
apparently stuck. No wonder you are confused, so is everyone else not
working on Windows. Here is a link to a Microsoft Word screen shot showing
the ribbon:

http://techhelpvideos.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/word-2007_2003-menus.jpg

You'll find a gazillion more on Google Images
In my experience, most people not working on Microsoft Office on a daily
basis (Mac versions have ribbons too) find them confusing.  I would
certainly not impose them on Linux/non-Office users.

Cheers,

S.

-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Steve Litt
On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:31:07 +0200 (CEST)
Csikos Bela bcsikos...@freemail.hu wrote:

 Alex Vergara Gil a...@cphr.edu.cu írta:
 
 Hello developers!
 
 I have a feature request if this is not already 
 requested to you: Ribbon Menus.
 
 I don't know what ribbon menus is, and I may not be the only one.
 You should have explained it, attached an image, or given a link
 where it is explained.

The way I see it, if LyX developers were to have enough time to put in
this UI eye candy, that time would be much better spent, for instance,
finishing the job of making LyX a full outliner that can add, delete,
change and move nodes. Or something else necessary or highly desirable
for someone who actually uses it to create large volumes of content.

Next thing you know, somebody will ask for an io/s looking interface to
match his iPhone.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Juha Meriluoto
On 3.4.2013 19:20, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
> Hello developers!
>  
> I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: Ribbon
> Menus.
>  
> The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and icon
> menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the icon
> menus. This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI graphic
> design. This modern approach is the best to maximize functionality and
> avoid duplicating functionality. I don´t know if thi request can be made
> inside Qt (I think there should be some package for this in the nokia
> library!).
>  
> What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you?
>  
> Best Regards
>  
> Alex

Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.  I find
them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are looking
for.  Quite probably they are ok when you get used to them, but there is
really no need for all to go the M$ way.

Just my 2 cents,

 - Juha





Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Jürgen Spitzmüller
Juha Meriluoto wrote:
> Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.  I find
> them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are looking
> for.  Quite probably they are ok when you get used to them, but there is
> really no need for all to go the M$ way.

This is also my judgement after having being forced to use these menus over 
the past months. But certainly, this is a matter of will and personal taste.

Anyway, since those menus seem to be a Windows thing only, we would, if we 
could and should, only implement them for the Windows OS.

Jürgen


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Charlie
 On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:47:25 +0200 "Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org"
 sent this:

>Juha Meriluoto wrote:
>> Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart.  I find
>> them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are
>>  looking for.  Quite probably they are ok when you get used
>>  to them, but there is really no need for all to go the M$
>>  way.
>
>This is also my judgement after having being forced to use these menus
>   over the past months. But certainly, this is a matter of will
>   and personal taste.
>
>Anyway, since those menus seem to be a Windows thing only, we would,
>   if we could and should, only implement them for the Windows OS.

I am of a like mind in this. I have no liking for ribbon menus, I'm
uncertain they are an improvement. I am certain they are not an
improvement for me.

They appear to be fancy for its own sake and not at all clear for quick
use. But then I am not a windows user and therefore use them very
occasionally. Only use them to try to find things for windows users who
also have a problem finding things they want, when using them.

Just my thoughts.
Charlie
-- 
Registered Linux User:- 329524
***

Simplicity doesn't mean to live in misery and poverty. You have
what you need, and you don't want what you don't
need. Charan Singh

***

Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic

-


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Csikos Bela
Alex Vergara Gil  írta:

>Hello developers!
>
>I have a feature request if this is not already >
>requested to you: Ribbon Menus.>

I don't know what ribbon menus is, and I may not be the only one.
You should have explained it, attached an image, or given a link where it is 
explained.

>The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in >
>text menus and icon menus,

That is good. Some prefer icons, some text. I prefer having both text
menus and icons.

> besides there is a lot of space wasted by >allocating >
>the icon menus.

??? I don't understand what you mean by "wasted space".
Do you mean the toolbars itself? It is possible to customize the toolbars
and even remove them.

> This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI graphic >
>design. This modern approach is the best to maximize functionality and >avoid 
>duplicating functionality.

Maximizing funcionality by removing alternative approaches?
Are you serious?

If ribbon menus is what Windows has in their menus, that is only the first
few items are shown and then you have to click an arrow to make other
menu items visible, then I don't want anything like that. That menu type
is useless and annoying.

bcsikos



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread stefano franchi
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Csikos Bela  wrote:

> If ribbon menus is what Windows has in their menus, that is only the first
> few items are shown and then you have to click an arrow to make other
> menu items visible,
>

That used to be what ribbon menus were all about, hence the name.
They no longer have the "ribbon-like" functionality now, but the name has
apparently stuck. No wonder you are confused, so is everyone else not
working on Windows. Here is a link to a Microsoft Word screen shot showing
the ribbon:

http://techhelpvideos.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/word-2007_2003-menus.jpg

You'll find a gazillion more on Google Images
In my experience, most people not working on Microsoft Office on a daily
basis (Mac versions have ribbons too) find them confusing.  I would
certainly not impose them on Linux/non-Office users.

Cheers,

S.

-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-04 Thread Steve Litt
On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:31:07 +0200 (CEST)
Csikos Bela  wrote:

> Alex Vergara Gil  írta:
> 
> >Hello developers!
> >
> >I have a feature request if this is not already >
> >requested to you: Ribbon Menus.>
> 
> I don't know what ribbon menus is, and I may not be the only one.
> You should have explained it, attached an image, or given a link
> where it is explained.

The way I see it, if LyX developers were to have enough time to put in
this UI eye candy, that time would be much better spent, for instance,
finishing the job of making LyX a full outliner that can add, delete,
change and move nodes. Or something else necessary or highly desirable
for someone who actually uses it to create large volumes of content.

Next thing you know, somebody will ask for an io/s looking interface to
match his iPhone.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Alex Vergara Gil
Hello developers!

I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: Ribbon Menus.

The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and icon menus, 
besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the icon menus. This has 
nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI graphic design. This modern 
approach is the best to maximize functionality and avoid duplicating 
functionality. I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there 
should be some package for this in the nokia library!).

What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you?

Best Regards

Alex

Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Richard Heck

On 04/03/2013 12:20 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:

Hello developers!
I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: 
Ribbon Menus.


If someone wanted to code these as an option, I'd have no objection, 
except for the fact that

Microsoft appears to have patented this:
http://www.google.com/patents/US8117542
in the US. (Patent law here is ridiculous, no doubt.) But I think I'd 
have to count myself on the side of peoplewho think that's terrible UI 
design, anyway:

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/44734
http://betanews.com/2011/05/20/now-you-can-send-the-office-ribbon-to-join-clippy/
So I'd certainly not want to see it as the default.

The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and 
icon menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the 
icon menus.


I almost never use toolbars, so I tend just to hide those.

rh



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Jacob Bishop
Opinions are cheap, so I guess I'll offer mine.

Patents are one thing I know next to nothing about, so that may be a game
stopper to begin with, as Richard pointed out. I may be in the minority
here, but in general I think the ribbon toolbar is a useful improvement for
Microsoft products (at least Excel, Word, and Powerpoint). It makes sense
to me since it allows easier access to all of those functions hidden 4 menu
items deep. For this reason, I personally dislike using older MS Word, for
example, and don't find Open/Libre Office to be any better (I think a
ribbon interface would be a big improvement for libreoffice). Then again, I
prefer to use LyX over either of those, but when I don't have a choice I
prefer Word with the ribbon interface.

Despite my generally favorable opinion of the ribbon toolbar, however, I do
not find myself wishing for it in LyX. I like the icons, and leave them
there, but typically find myself using keyboard shortcuts as soon as I can
learn them. My biggest concern about the ribbon toolbar is that it eats up
your vertical screen real-estate. Unfortunately, monitors seem to be
getting wider, not taller.

All that said, I would of course be interested to see how it turned out if
someone were to undertake the endeavor. I might be pleasantly surprised.

Jacob


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Pavel Sanda
Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
 I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should be 
 some package for this in the nokia library!).

No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that Qt team at one point stopped developing
the control due to Microsoft licensing.
This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around in 90s
and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI.

Pavel


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Alex Vergara Gil



Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should 
be some package for this in the nokia library!).

Pavel Sanda wrote:
No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that Qt team at one point stopped 
developing

the control due to Microsoft licensing.
This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around in 
90s

and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI.

Pavel




Yes indeed, this sounds like we should not be able to build frames at all 
because they look like Microsoft´s Windows and these are licensed by 
Microsoft ;) so what kind of things are legal or not? This point puts even 
more fuzzy to my logic! I thougth graphic design as long as it is not equal 
are not the same and we can make the ribbon as different as we want, just 
keeping the idea and even better, instead of putting it in the top we can 
put then at the left so we can avoid the vertical space eating that Jacob 
mentioned.


So I don´t understand that logic.

Just my POW
Alex 



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Steve Litt
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:20:24 -0500
Alex Vergara Gil a...@cphr.edu.cu wrote:

 Hello developers!
 
 I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you:
 Ribbon Menus.
 
 The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and
 icon menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the
 icon menus. This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI
 graphic design. This modern approach is the best to maximize
 functionality and avoid duplicating functionality. I don´t know if
 thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should be some
 package for this in the nokia library!).
 
 What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you?
 
 Best Regards
 
 Alex

Alex, shouldn't you have posted this on 4/1 instead of 4/3?

SteveT



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Richard Heck

On 04/03/2013 04:41 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:



Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there 
should be some package for this in the nokia library!).

Pavel Sanda wrote:
No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that Qt team at one point stopped 
developing

the control due to Microsoft licensing.
This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already 
around in 90s

and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI.

Pavel




Yes indeed, this sounds like we should not be able to build frames at 
all because they look like Microsoft´s Windows and these are licensed 
by Microsoft ;) so what kind of things are legal or not? This point 
puts even more fuzzy to my logic! I thougth graphic design as long as 
it is not equal are not the same and we can make the ribbon as 
different as we want, just keeping the idea and even better, instead 
of putting it in the top we can put then at the left so we can avoid 
the vertical space eating that Jacob mentioned.


Though one can put it this way: Nokia decided they did not wish to spend 
a gazillion dollars fighting a patent case, even if they might win it in 
the end, and even if Microsoft's patent makes about as much sense as the 
old joke that they would eventually patent 0 and 1.


Remember: Apple got a design patent for a rectangle with rounded 
corners, and they won a patent infringement suit against Samsung. Really.


That's the sad state of US patent law.

Richard



feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Alex Vergara Gil
Hello developers!

I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: Ribbon Menus.

The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and icon menus, 
besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the icon menus. This has 
nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI graphic design. This modern 
approach is the best to maximize functionality and avoid duplicating 
functionality. I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there 
should be some package for this in the nokia library!).

What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you?

Best Regards

Alex

Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Richard Heck

On 04/03/2013 12:20 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:

Hello developers!
I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: 
Ribbon Menus.


If someone wanted to code these as an option, I'd have no objection, 
except for the fact that

Microsoft appears to have patented this:
http://www.google.com/patents/US8117542
in the US. (Patent law here is ridiculous, no doubt.) But I think I'd 
have to count myself on the side of peoplewho think that's terrible UI 
design, anyway:

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/44734
http://betanews.com/2011/05/20/now-you-can-send-the-office-ribbon-to-join-clippy/
So I'd certainly not want to see it as the default.

The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and 
icon menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the 
icon menus.


I almost never use toolbars, so I tend just to hide those.

rh



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Jacob Bishop
Opinions are cheap, so I guess I'll offer mine.

Patents are one thing I know next to nothing about, so that may be a game
stopper to begin with, as Richard pointed out. I may be in the minority
here, but in general I think the ribbon toolbar is a useful improvement for
Microsoft products (at least Excel, Word, and Powerpoint). It makes sense
to me since it allows easier access to all of those functions hidden 4 menu
items deep. For this reason, I personally dislike using older MS Word, for
example, and don't find Open/Libre Office to be any better (I think a
ribbon interface would be a big improvement for libreoffice). Then again, I
prefer to use LyX over either of those, but when I don't have a choice I
prefer Word with the ribbon interface.

Despite my generally favorable opinion of the ribbon toolbar, however, I do
not find myself wishing for it in LyX. I like the icons, and leave them
there, but typically find myself using keyboard shortcuts as soon as I can
learn them. My biggest concern about the ribbon toolbar is that it eats up
your vertical screen real-estate. Unfortunately, monitors seem to be
getting wider, not taller.

All that said, I would of course be interested to see how it turned out if
someone were to undertake the endeavor. I might be pleasantly surprised.

Jacob


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Pavel Sanda
Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
 I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should be 
 some package for this in the nokia library!).

No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that Qt team at one point stopped developing
the control due to Microsoft licensing.
This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around in 90s
and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI.

Pavel


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Alex Vergara Gil



Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should 
be some package for this in the nokia library!).

Pavel Sanda wrote:
No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that Qt team at one point stopped 
developing

the control due to Microsoft licensing.
This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around in 
90s

and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI.

Pavel




Yes indeed, this sounds like we should not be able to build frames at all 
because they look like Microsoft´s Windows and these are licensed by 
Microsoft ;) so what kind of things are legal or not? This point puts even 
more fuzzy to my logic! I thougth graphic design as long as it is not equal 
are not the same and we can make the ribbon as different as we want, just 
keeping the idea and even better, instead of putting it in the top we can 
put then at the left so we can avoid the vertical space eating that Jacob 
mentioned.


So I don´t understand that logic.

Just my POW
Alex 



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Steve Litt
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:20:24 -0500
Alex Vergara Gil a...@cphr.edu.cu wrote:

 Hello developers!
 
 I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you:
 Ribbon Menus.
 
 The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and
 icon menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the
 icon menus. This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI
 graphic design. This modern approach is the best to maximize
 functionality and avoid duplicating functionality. I don´t know if
 thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should be some
 package for this in the nokia library!).
 
 What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you?
 
 Best Regards
 
 Alex

Alex, shouldn't you have posted this on 4/1 instead of 4/3?

SteveT



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Richard Heck

On 04/03/2013 04:41 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:



Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there 
should be some package for this in the nokia library!).

Pavel Sanda wrote:
No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that Qt team at one point stopped 
developing

the control due to Microsoft licensing.
This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already 
around in 90s

and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI.

Pavel




Yes indeed, this sounds like we should not be able to build frames at 
all because they look like Microsoft´s Windows and these are licensed 
by Microsoft ;) so what kind of things are legal or not? This point 
puts even more fuzzy to my logic! I thougth graphic design as long as 
it is not equal are not the same and we can make the ribbon as 
different as we want, just keeping the idea and even better, instead 
of putting it in the top we can put then at the left so we can avoid 
the vertical space eating that Jacob mentioned.


Though one can put it this way: Nokia decided they did not wish to spend 
a gazillion dollars fighting a patent case, even if they might win it in 
the end, and even if Microsoft's patent makes about as much sense as the 
old joke that they would eventually patent 0 and 1.


Remember: Apple got a design patent for a rectangle with rounded 
corners, and they won a patent infringement suit against Samsung. Really.


That's the sad state of US patent law.

Richard



feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Alex Vergara Gil
Hello developers!

I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: Ribbon Menus.

The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and icon menus, 
besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the icon menus. This has 
nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI graphic design. This modern 
approach is the best to maximize functionality and avoid duplicating 
functionality. I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there 
should be some package for this in the nokia library!).

What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you?

Best Regards

Alex

Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Richard Heck

On 04/03/2013 12:20 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:

Hello developers!
I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: 
Ribbon Menus.


If someone wanted to code these as an option, I'd have no objection, 
except for the fact that

Microsoft appears to have patented this:
http://www.google.com/patents/US8117542
in the US. (Patent law here is ridiculous, no doubt.) But I think I'd 
have to count myself on the side of peoplewho think that's terrible UI 
design, anyway:

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/44734
http://betanews.com/2011/05/20/now-you-can-send-the-office-ribbon-to-join-clippy/
So I'd certainly not want to see it as the default.

The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and 
icon menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the 
icon menus.


I almost never use toolbars, so I tend just to hide those.

rh



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Jacob Bishop
Opinions are cheap, so I guess I'll offer mine.

Patents are one thing I know next to nothing about, so that may be a game
stopper to begin with, as Richard pointed out. I may be in the minority
here, but in general I think the ribbon toolbar is a useful improvement for
Microsoft products (at least Excel, Word, and Powerpoint). It makes sense
to me since it allows easier access to all of those functions hidden 4 menu
items deep. For this reason, I personally dislike using older MS Word, for
example, and don't find Open/Libre Office to be any better (I think a
ribbon interface would be a big improvement for libreoffice). Then again, I
prefer to use LyX over either of those, but when I don't have a choice I
prefer Word with the ribbon interface.

Despite my generally favorable opinion of the ribbon toolbar, however, I do
not find myself wishing for it in LyX. I like the icons, and leave them
there, but typically find myself using keyboard shortcuts as soon as I can
learn them. My biggest concern about the ribbon toolbar is that it eats up
your vertical screen real-estate. Unfortunately, monitors seem to be
getting wider, not taller.

All that said, I would of course be interested to see how it turned out if
someone were to undertake the endeavor. I might be pleasantly surprised.

Jacob


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Pavel Sanda
Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
> I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should be 
> some package for this in the nokia library!).

No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that "Qt team at one point stopped developing
the control due to Microsoft licensing."
This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around in 90s
and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI.

Pavel


Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Alex Vergara Gil



Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should 
be some package for this in the nokia library!).

Pavel Sanda wrote:
No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that "Qt team at one point stopped 
developing

the control due to Microsoft licensing."
This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around in 
90s

and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI.

Pavel




Yes indeed, this sounds like we should not be able to build frames at all 
because they look like Microsoft´s Windows and these are licensed by 
Microsoft ;) so what kind of things are legal or not? This point puts even 
more fuzzy to my logic! I thougth graphic design as long as it is not equal 
are not the same and we can make the ribbon as different as we want, just 
keeping the idea and even better, instead of putting it in the top we can 
put then at the left so we can avoid the vertical space eating that Jacob 
mentioned.


So I don´t understand that logic.

Just my POW
Alex 



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Steve Litt
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:20:24 -0500
"Alex Vergara Gil"  wrote:

> Hello developers!
> 
> I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you:
> Ribbon Menus.
> 
> The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and
> icon menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the
> icon menus. This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI
> graphic design. This modern approach is the best to maximize
> functionality and avoid duplicating functionality. I don´t know if
> thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should be some
> package for this in the nokia library!).
> 
> What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you?
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Alex

Alex, shouldn't you have posted this on 4/1 instead of 4/3?

SteveT



Re: feature request: ribbon menus

2013-04-03 Thread Richard Heck

On 04/03/2013 04:41 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote:



Alex Vergara Gil wrote:
I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there 
should be some package for this in the nokia library!).

Pavel Sanda wrote:
No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that "Qt team at one point stopped 
developing

the control due to Microsoft licensing."
This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already 
around in 90s

and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI.

Pavel




Yes indeed, this sounds like we should not be able to build frames at 
all because they look like Microsoft´s Windows and these are licensed 
by Microsoft ;) so what kind of things are legal or not? This point 
puts even more fuzzy to my logic! I thougth graphic design as long as 
it is not equal are not the same and we can make the ribbon as 
different as we want, just keeping the idea and even better, instead 
of putting it in the top we can put then at the left so we can avoid 
the vertical space eating that Jacob mentioned.


Though one can put it this way: Nokia decided they did not wish to spend 
a gazillion dollars fighting a patent case, even if they might win it in 
the end, and even if Microsoft's patent makes about as much sense as the 
old joke that they would eventually patent 0 and 1.


Remember: Apple got a design patent for a rectangle with rounded 
corners, and they won a patent infringement suit against Samsung. Really.


That's the sad state of US patent law.

Richard