Re: feature request: ribbon menus
On 4 April 2013 07:11, Richard Heck wrote: > On 04/03/2013 04:41 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: >> >> >>> Alex Vergara Gil wrote: I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should be some package for this in the nokia library!). >>> >>> Pavel Sanda wrote: >>> No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that "Qt team at one point stopped >>> developing >>> the control due to Microsoft licensing." >>> This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around >>> in 90s >>> and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI. >>> >>> Pavel >>> >> >> >> Yes indeed, this sounds like we should not be able to build frames at all >> because they look like Microsoft´s Windows and these are licensed by >> Microsoft ;) so what kind of things are legal or not? This point puts even >> more fuzzy to my logic! I thougth graphic design as long as it is not equal >> are not the same and we can make the ribbon as different as we want, just >> keeping the idea and even better, instead of putting it in the top we can >> put then at the left so we can avoid the vertical space eating that Jacob >> mentioned. > > > Though one can put it this way: Nokia decided they did not wish to spend a > gazillion dollars fighting a patent case, even if they might win it in the > end, and even if Microsoft's patent makes about as much sense as the old > joke that they would eventually patent 0 and 1. > > Remember: Apple got a design patent for a rectangle with rounded corners, > and they won a patent infringement suit against Samsung. Really. > > That's the sad state of US patent law. Hi guys this might be an interesting example of something like those ribbon menus on Linux (with Qt): http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/wps-office-for-linux-looks-like-microsoft-office-but-isnt "The Qt suite apes the interface of Microsoft’s ‘Ribbon’ interface, and whilst I can’t tell you whether it’s 100% accurate in its replication (I haven’t used Microsoft Office long enough to tell), it’s certainly authentic looking." Just thought I'd share this -- not that I particularly love this kind of UI (I don't dislike it either). I work extensively cross-platform and sometimes with very old hardware/software as well so I tend to adapt wherever needed without much trouble, so to say. -- GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 9:46 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Liviu Andronic wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Nico Williams wrote: >>> textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible. I'd even >>> like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like >>> >> That's a good idea and easy to pull-off: Put in a search box that will >> filter UI-elements given a keyword. Similar to what we do in Settings >> and in outline. > > OK, well, while we're at it, here's another thing I'd like: to be able > to create my own menus and toolbars, and this probably (oddly enough, > for me) graphically by dragging things into custom menus/toolbars. In > particular I use custom insets a fair bit, so I'd like to make use of > custom insets much easier than now. > This could be made part of the Toolbar customization dialog ( http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2013Ideas#toc6 ) project for GSoC 2013. If only we had a mentor and a student for the project. Liviu
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Liviu Andronic wrote: > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Nico Williams wrote: >> textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible. I'd even >> like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like >> > That's a good idea and easy to pull-off: Put in a search box that will > filter UI-elements given a keyword. Similar to what we do in Settings > and in outline. OK, well, while we're at it, here's another thing I'd like: to be able to create my own menus and toolbars, and this probably (oddly enough, for me) graphically by dragging things into custom menus/toolbars. In particular I use custom insets a fair bit, so I'd like to make use of custom insets much easier than now. Nico --
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible. I'd even > like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like > That's a good idea and easy to pull-off: Put in a search box that will filter UI-elements given a keyword. Similar to what we do in Settings and in outline. Liviu
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
Since we're piling on... I don't mind the sort of ribbon menu as they've evolved to be at MSFT, but I do prefer pull-down menus with *text* instead of icons. I'm a textual user, I prefer everything as textual as possible. I'd even like a search feature for menus/functions, and in general I'd like search to be as powerful as possible. I'm so text-oriented that I'd rather you add vi keybindings than ribbon menus. Still, that said, if you organize the implementation cleverly, then you could easily give the user the option of traditional vs. "ribbon" menus. I don't care if you do implement the option for ribbon menus but it strikes me as a good idea to organize the implementation such that you *can* add the option with minimal effort later. Nico --
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
As someone who routinely uses LyX on different platforms between Mac OS X and Windows 7 I just wanted to say that I think the LyX interface is beautiful. It strikes a great balance of feeling native and attractive on all platforms in my opinion, and with the higher resolutions many displays have these days I can keep all the toolbars turned out without any issues. OT: LyX has really been a transformative tool for me -- I went from being miserable and suffering in other word processors to being proficient and passionate about my work again because I feel LyX helps the user be organized and productive rather than working against them. Thank you LyX developers, you have made an absolutely spectacular tool and your efforts are hugely appreciated! On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:52 AM, EK wrote: > *PLEASE DO NOT CONSIDER RIBBON MENUS-*- they are (one of the many) > reason(s) I switched from MS-WORD to Lyx in the first place! > They hide what you are looking for! > > Ehud Kaplan > > > > On 04/07/2013 04:05 PM, Clemens Eisserer wrote: > > > Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart. > > This is also my personal oppinion. > I have to use Office-2010 sometimes, and whenever I can I revert to > LibreOffice mostly because of the awkward UI ms office has. > > > Regards > > > >
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
PLEASE DO NOT CONSIDER RIBBON MENUS-- they are (one of the many) reason(s) I switched from MS-WORD to Lyx in the first place! They hide what you are looking for! Ehud Kaplan On 04/07/2013 04:05 PM, Clemens Eisserer wrote: > Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart. This is also my personal oppinion. I have to use Office-2010 sometimes, and whenever I can I revert to LibreOffice mostly because of the awkward UI ms office has. Regards
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
> Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart. This is also my personal oppinion. I have to use Office-2010 sometimes, and whenever I can I revert to LibreOffice mostly because of the awkward UI ms office has. Regards
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
> > Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart. I find > > them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are > > looking for. Quite probably they are ok when you get used to them, > > but there is really no need for all to go the M$ way. > > This is also my judgement after having being forced to use these > menus over the past months. But certainly, this is a matter of will > and personal taste. It isn't. Even if an empirical one, ergonomics is still a science with very well established rules. Sincerely, Wolfgang
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
> I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: > Ribbon Menus. > What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you? Anti-ergonomic garbage. "Ribbon menus" are a cerebral flatulance emanating from some product manager's "brain" at MS. Sincerely, Wolfgang
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
- Original Message - From: "Jürgen Spitzmüller" To: Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 11:16 AM Subject: Re: feature request: ribbon menus Well, this is an open source project. So if there are no license issues, everybody who is motivated enough to implement and maintain such an UI is of course allowed to go ahead and propose a patch. This was my initial intention, but I was exploring in this list to see if there are some users who actually want this. Not the case, so the intention seems to have wrong fundations. My bad :( At the moment, nobody seems to be really enthusiastic, so one consequence could be that you do it yourself (this is actually exactly how I came into LyX development). Jürgen I am learning Qt right now but I have some experience developing, especially with UI. My concept of a text editor software always include ribbon menus and thats why I shout this proposition, but without community acceptance any purpose is a nonsense! So next time will be. Alex
Curses front end to LyX: was feature request: ribbon menus
On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 17:10:48 +0200 Walter van Holst wrote: > Or a curses front-end to LyX. Wow. What would *that* look like? /* Litt can't help getting interested */ Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
On 2013-04-05 16:49, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: As I said this is my personal opinion so I migth be wrong, but I haven´t received any useful opinion (besides M$ patent) of why not doing such a thing just a few user complaining they will affect some how what they feel is comfortable. Regarding the patent believe me that if they patent 0s and 1s then we are definitively lost.:) Several people have responded that ribbon menus have limited use to them, to say the least. I don't think that is a useless opinion. As someone who spends most of his working hours in Microsoft's ribbon menus, allow me to add to the chorus that ribbon menus tend to be spiteful and useless. And no, they don't really grow on you. I have no idea what flavour of LSD Microsoft's usability experts have been consuming, but I hope it is widely available so that if I ever contract a terminal disease I'd like to spend my final hours tripping on that stuff. I'd much rather have people spend time on a concurrent user web front-end. Or a curses front-end to LyX. Either of these two are more likely to serve users well than the bloody ribbon menus. Regards, Walter
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
- Original Message - From: "Steve Litt" To: Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 7:38 PM Subject: Re: feature request: ribbon menus On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:31:07 +0200 (CEST) Csikos Bela wrote: Alex Vergara Gil írta: >Hello developers! > >I have a feature request if this is not already > >requested to you: Ribbon Menus.> I don't know what ribbon menus is, and I may not be the only one. You should have explained it, attached an image, or given a link where it is explained. The way I see it, if LyX developers were to have enough time to put in this UI eye candy, that time would be much better spent, for instance, finishing the job of making LyX a full outliner that can add, delete, change and move nodes. Or something else necessary or highly desirable for someone who actually uses it to create large volumes of content. Next thing you know, somebody will ask for an io/s looking interface to match his iPhone. SteveT Changes in UI like this one takes to anyone just 1 day, it is just a matter of decide to make it or not, however the changes you mentioned take a lot of coding and a lot of man-hour work, so the time scale is not comparable. On the other hand ribbon menus once you get use to them you find your productivity increasing, actually LyX has something that is like this: "The math toolbar", which groups several common operators in just one menu and have several menus grouped by functionality. If the ribbon appearance is problematic then you can create something like the math toolbar for every toolbar and put them in just one toolbar. I see people here who argue with this because they would not have everything in front of their eyes, really!! then why don´t you complain of not having every single option visible in toolbars? What I beg is an UI organization grouping icons by functionality, so the resulting toolbar (or ribbon menu) should be smaller and highly configurable. Come on people, not only M$ do this, even Apple and there are some linux programs that are using a similar approach right now. Static toolbars are obsolete in terms of modern GUIs. This request is not for beautyness but for increasing productivity. As I said this is my personal opinion so I migth be wrong, but I haven´t received any useful opinion (besides M$ patent) of why not doing such a thing just a few user complaining they will affect some how what they feel is comfortable. Regarding the patent believe me that if they patent 0s and 1s then we are definitively lost.:) Alex
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
From: stefano franchi To: Csikos Bela Cc: "lyx-users@lists.lyx.org" Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:04:41 AM Subject: Re: feature request: ribbon menus On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Csikos Bela wrote: If ribbon menus is what Windows has in their menus, that is only the first >few items are shown and then you have to click an arrow to make other >menu items visible, > That used to be what ribbon menus were all about, hence the name. They no longer have the "ribbon-like" functionality now, but the name has apparently stuck. No wonder you are confused, so is everyone else not working on Windows. Here is a link to a Microsoft Word screen shot showing the ribbon: http://techhelpvideos.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/word-2007_2003-menus.jpg Ah, I remember them. I had to use Word a few months ago and those ribbons make a 10 minute job 30 minutes of hell. You'll find a gazillion more on Google Images In my experience, most people not working on Microsoft Office on a daily basis (Mac versions have ribbons too) find them confusing. I would certainly not impose them on Linux/non-Office users. Cheers, S. -- __ Stefano Franchi Associate Research Professor Department of Hispanic Studies Ph: +1 (979) 845-2125 Texas A&M University Fax: +1 (979) 845-6421 College Station, Texas, USA stef...@tamu.edu http://stefano.cleinias.org
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:31:07 +0200 (CEST) Csikos Bela wrote: > Alex Vergara Gil írta: > > >Hello developers! > > > >I have a feature request if this is not already > > >requested to you: Ribbon Menus.> > > I don't know what ribbon menus is, and I may not be the only one. > You should have explained it, attached an image, or given a link > where it is explained. The way I see it, if LyX developers were to have enough time to put in this UI eye candy, that time would be much better spent, for instance, finishing the job of making LyX a full outliner that can add, delete, change and move nodes. Or something else necessary or highly desirable for someone who actually uses it to create large volumes of content. Next thing you know, somebody will ask for an io/s looking interface to match his iPhone. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Csikos Bela wrote: > If ribbon menus is what Windows has in their menus, that is only the first > few items are shown and then you have to click an arrow to make other > menu items visible, > That used to be what ribbon menus were all about, hence the name. They no longer have the "ribbon-like" functionality now, but the name has apparently stuck. No wonder you are confused, so is everyone else not working on Windows. Here is a link to a Microsoft Word screen shot showing the ribbon: http://techhelpvideos.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/word-2007_2003-menus.jpg You'll find a gazillion more on Google Images In my experience, most people not working on Microsoft Office on a daily basis (Mac versions have ribbons too) find them confusing. I would certainly not impose them on Linux/non-Office users. Cheers, S. -- __ Stefano Franchi Associate Research Professor Department of Hispanic StudiesPh: +1 (979) 845-2125 Texas A&M University Fax: +1 (979) 845-6421 College Station, Texas, USA stef...@tamu.edu http://stefano.cleinias.org
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
Alex Vergara Gil írta: >Hello developers! > >I have a feature request if this is not already > >requested to you: Ribbon Menus.> I don't know what ribbon menus is, and I may not be the only one. You should have explained it, attached an image, or given a link where it is explained. >The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in > >text menus and icon menus, That is good. Some prefer icons, some text. I prefer having both text menus and icons. > besides there is a lot of space wasted by >allocating > >the icon menus. ??? I don't understand what you mean by "wasted space". Do you mean the toolbars itself? It is possible to customize the toolbars and even remove them. > This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI graphic > >design. This modern approach is the best to maximize functionality and >avoid >duplicating functionality. Maximizing funcionality by removing alternative approaches? Are you serious? If ribbon menus is what Windows has in their menus, that is only the first few items are shown and then you have to click an arrow to make other menu items visible, then I don't want anything like that. That menu type is useless and annoying. bcsikos
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:47:25 +0200 "Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org" sent this: >Juha Meriluoto wrote: >> Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart. I find >> them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are >> looking for. Quite probably they are ok when you get used >> to them, but there is really no need for all to go the M$ >> way. > >This is also my judgement after having being forced to use these menus > over the past months. But certainly, this is a matter of will > and personal taste. > >Anyway, since those menus seem to be a Windows thing only, we would, > if we could and should, only implement them for the Windows OS. I am of a like mind in this. I have no liking for ribbon menus, I'm uncertain they are an improvement. I am certain they are not an improvement for me. They appear to be fancy for its own sake and not at all clear for quick use. But then I am not a windows user and therefore use them very occasionally. Only use them to try to find things for windows users who also have a problem finding things they want, when using them. Just my thoughts. Charlie -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** Simplicity doesn't mean to live in misery and poverty. You have what you need, and you don't want what you don't need. Charan Singh *** Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic -
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
Juha Meriluoto wrote: > Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart. I find > them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are looking > for. Quite probably they are ok when you get used to them, but there is > really no need for all to go the M$ way. This is also my judgement after having being forced to use these menus over the past months. But certainly, this is a matter of will and personal taste. Anyway, since those menus seem to be a Windows thing only, we would, if we could and should, only implement them for the Windows OS. Jürgen
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
On 3.4.2013 19:20, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: > Hello developers! > > I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: Ribbon > Menus. > > The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and icon > menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the icon > menus. This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI graphic > design. This modern approach is the best to maximize functionality and > avoid duplicating functionality. I don´t know if thi request can be made > inside Qt (I think there should be some package for this in the nokia > library!). > > What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you? > > Best Regards > > Alex Personally, I hate ribbon menus from the bottom of my heart. I find them quite difficult to use, it takes ages to find what you are looking for. Quite probably they are ok when you get used to them, but there is really no need for all to go the M$ way. Just my 2 cents, - Juha
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
On 04/03/2013 04:41 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: Alex Vergara Gil wrote: I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should be some package for this in the nokia library!). Pavel Sanda wrote: No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that "Qt team at one point stopped developing the control due to Microsoft licensing." This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around in 90s and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI. Pavel Yes indeed, this sounds like we should not be able to build frames at all because they look like Microsoft´s Windows and these are licensed by Microsoft ;) so what kind of things are legal or not? This point puts even more fuzzy to my logic! I thougth graphic design as long as it is not equal are not the same and we can make the ribbon as different as we want, just keeping the idea and even better, instead of putting it in the top we can put then at the left so we can avoid the vertical space eating that Jacob mentioned. Though one can put it this way: Nokia decided they did not wish to spend a gazillion dollars fighting a patent case, even if they might win it in the end, and even if Microsoft's patent makes about as much sense as the old joke that they would eventually patent 0 and 1. Remember: Apple got a design patent for a rectangle with rounded corners, and they won a patent infringement suit against Samsung. Really. That's the sad state of US patent law. Richard
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:20:24 -0500 "Alex Vergara Gil" wrote: > Hello developers! > > I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: > Ribbon Menus. > > The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and > icon menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the > icon menus. This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI > graphic design. This modern approach is the best to maximize > functionality and avoid duplicating functionality. I don´t know if > thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should be some > package for this in the nokia library!). > > What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you? > > Best Regards > > Alex Alex, shouldn't you have posted this on 4/1 instead of 4/3? SteveT
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
Alex Vergara Gil wrote: I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should be some package for this in the nokia library!). Pavel Sanda wrote: No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that "Qt team at one point stopped developing the control due to Microsoft licensing." This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around in 90s and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI. Pavel Yes indeed, this sounds like we should not be able to build frames at all because they look like Microsoft´s Windows and these are licensed by Microsoft ;) so what kind of things are legal or not? This point puts even more fuzzy to my logic! I thougth graphic design as long as it is not equal are not the same and we can make the ribbon as different as we want, just keeping the idea and even better, instead of putting it in the top we can put then at the left so we can avoid the vertical space eating that Jacob mentioned. So I don´t understand that logic. Just my POW Alex
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
Alex Vergara Gil wrote: > I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should be > some package for this in the nokia library!). No it isn't. Mr Google suggest that "Qt team at one point stopped developing the control due to Microsoft licensing." This sounds funny given the fact that tabbed toolbar was already around in 90s and I remember it from Borland's Delphi UI. Pavel
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
Opinions are cheap, so I guess I'll offer mine. Patents are one thing I know next to nothing about, so that may be a game stopper to begin with, as Richard pointed out. I may be in the minority here, but in general I think the ribbon toolbar is a useful improvement for Microsoft products (at least Excel, Word, and Powerpoint). It makes sense to me since it allows easier access to all of those functions hidden 4 menu items deep. For this reason, I personally dislike using older MS Word, for example, and don't find Open/Libre Office to be any better (I think a ribbon interface would be a big improvement for libreoffice). Then again, I prefer to use LyX over either of those, but when I don't have a choice I prefer Word with the ribbon interface. Despite my generally favorable opinion of the ribbon toolbar, however, I do not find myself wishing for it in LyX. I like the icons, and leave them there, but typically find myself using keyboard shortcuts as soon as I can learn them. My biggest concern about the ribbon toolbar is that it eats up your vertical screen real-estate. Unfortunately, monitors seem to be getting wider, not taller. All that said, I would of course be interested to see how it turned out if someone were to undertake the endeavor. I might be pleasantly surprised. Jacob
Re: feature request: ribbon menus
On 04/03/2013 12:20 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: Hello developers! I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: Ribbon Menus. If someone wanted to code these as an option, I'd have no objection, except for the fact that Microsoft appears to have patented this: http://www.google.com/patents/US8117542 in the US. (Patent law here is ridiculous, no doubt.) But I think I'd have to count myself on the side of peoplewho think that's terrible UI design, anyway: http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/44734 http://betanews.com/2011/05/20/now-you-can-send-the-office-ribbon-to-join-clippy/ So I'd certainly not want to see it as the default. The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and icon menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the icon menus. I almost never use toolbars, so I tend just to hide those. rh
feature request: ribbon menus
Hello developers! I have a feature request if this is not already requested to you: Ribbon Menus. The actual look of lyx makes duplicate functions in text menus and icon menus, besides there is a lot of space wasted by allocating the icon menus. This has nothing to do with intrinsic code but to UI graphic design. This modern approach is the best to maximize functionality and avoid duplicating functionality. I don´t know if thi request can be made inside Qt (I think there should be some package for this in the nokia library!). What are your opinions about this? Is this approach correct to you? Best Regards Alex
