Comparing VoiceOver and NVDA, Upcoming Panel Discussion

2021-03-05 Thread kliph miller Sr 

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>> Good evening, most of you probably remember the recent article attempting to 
>> compare Voiceover on Mac OS with NVDA on Windows. As promised, Kliph and I, 
>> along with our good friend John of Mac For the Blind, will host a reaction 
>> panel, in which we will discuss this article and our opinions of it. This 
>> discussion will be held in Zoom tonight at 8PM Eastern, 7PM Central, and you 
>> are all invited to join us. Come ask your questions and share your thoughts. 
>> The meeting link is the same one used by Trainer Kliph for some of his 
>> various training sessions, as well as for our monthly Bible study. It is:
>> 
>> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/3116952583?pwd=SlFQZmVtbFZlNXppcmU4TmZGeDIwZz09
>> 
>> Meeting ID: 311 695 2583
>> Passcode: 331042
>> Hope to see you there. God bless you and take care.:)

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Re: Comparing VoiceOver And NVDA

2021-03-03 Thread Mike Arrigo 
No matter what I do, I cannot open the context menu for any item on the dock. 
It just goes back to the finder, unless voiceover is reporting it wrong, I 
guess I could try control clicking with the trackpad on my laptop but for the 
mac minis, nothing works.

> On Mar 2, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Cara Quinn  wrote:
> 
> I may not be understanding this issue but I’ve just opened a context menu on 
> a dock item (using control click) and then used enter to access an option.
> 
> Enter seems to consistently work once a context menu is open. Are others not 
> seeing this?
> 
> My apologies if I have misunderstood or have missed the point.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Cara
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 2, 2021, at 7:26 AM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
>> 
>> From my experience, I have had no problem opening the shortcut menu for a 
>> Dock item using VO + Shift +M..  The real problem is accessing a selection 
>> from a shortcut menu.
>> In the beginning of this issue, routing the mouse pointer to the desired 
>> menu item, and then performing a mouse click on the trackpad worked in most 
>> situations.  However, since the 11.2 update, this work-around no longer 
>> performs as it once did in the prior 11.1 update.  There has been no change 
>> with the 11.2.2 update as well.
>> This situation is both disappointing and unacceptable.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 2, 2021, at 02:36, Jürgen Fleger  wrote:
>> 
>> I only found one real solution to this issue: 
>> Navigate to an element in the Dock.
>> Switch off Trackpad Commander.
>> Route mouse pointer to VO by pressing VO + CMD + F5. Pressing FN 
>> additionally probably would be necessary in most cases.
>> Hold down CTRL and press down Trackpad with one finger. Means perform a real 
>> right click.
>> If I do so the known context menu opens  reliably on my Mac. All other 
>> suggestions didn’t work more than ones.
>> All the best
>> Jürgen
>> 
>> 
>>> Am 02.03.2021 um 06:39 schrieb Brad Snyder :
>>> 
>>> I don’t find that using the Actions Menu helps get around any of the Big 
>>> Sur Dock access issues.
>>> Maybe I’m missing something here.
>>> 
>>> - Brad -
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:51, John Panarese  wrote:
>>> 
>>>Which can be done via the Action Menu with ease.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Take Care
>>> 
>>> John D. Panarese
>>> Director
>>> Mac for the Blind
>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>> 
>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
>>> 
>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>> 
>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Mar 1, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
 
 Adding items to the Dock never has been a problem in Big Sur.  The problem 
 is accessing and working with the shortcut menu for Dock items in Big Sur.
 
 - Brad -
 
 
 On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:36, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
 
 I wonder if this person even tried a mac. Yes, there was an issue with 
 disk utility in the big sur recovery and I agree that this should have 
 never been released, but it is fixed now. I'm wondering what tasks the 
 author of this article wants to perform but is unable to do. There is 
 still an issue with adding and removing items from the dock using the 
 keyboard but that's not voiceover related directly.
 
> On Mar 1, 2021, at 6:48 AM, kliph miller Sr  
> wrote:
> 
>>> It’s clear to me about this article 2 things.
>> 1. This is a windows user
>> 2. They haven’t done there homework.
>> Note: I am not the author of this article!
>> 
>>> Introduction
>>> The modern era has brought many advantages for those who are blind or 
>>> visually impaired. One of the most important tools a blind user uses 
>>> with modern computing devices is a screen reader. Traditionally, screen 
>>> readers have been very expensive third-party programs that were very 
>>> difficult to obtain depending on one’s financial status. However, 
>>> several free yet capable screen readers have emerged in the last 20 
>>> years. The two that we will be discussing are Apple’s VoiceOver for 
>>> macOS and the Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for Windows. Both are 
>>> powerful screen readers in their own right, but they have their 
>>> strengths and weaknesses which I will discuss in more detail. Hopefully 
>>> by the end of this article, you will have a better understanding of 
>>> each product and its individual strengths/weaknesses.
>>> 
>>> NVDA
>>> Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for short is a free and open source 
>>> screen reader for the Microsoft Windows operating system. The 
>>> organization behind the project is an Australian company called NV 
>>> Access (www.nvaccess.org). It has been around since 2006 and primarily 
>>> competes with the JAWS for Windows screen reader produced by Freedom 
>>> Scientific or Vispero as they are

Re: Comparing VoiceOver And NVDA

2021-03-02 Thread 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 



On 1/3/21 9:08 pm, Eric Oyen wrote:

Yeah,
He sounds like a total windows user. I Happen to be very conversant with both 
windows and OS X. Right now, I am still on Catalina. Most of the issues he 
alluded to in VoiceOver don’t seem to crop up all that often. However, some 
javascript running on a few of the more busy news sites will cause it to crash 
and restart. That, however, may be a Javascript issue.
I don't think Mac OS accessibility with VoiceOver is worse now tan it was when 
I first encountered it in 2014.


The bugs are different, but I wouldn't say there are more of them or 
that they're more serious than they used to be.


Other operating systems are similar - different accessibility issues, 
and different bugs, some of which aren't fixed for years.


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Re: Comparing VoiceOver And NVDA

2021-03-02 Thread Cara Quinn 
I may not be understanding this issue but I’ve just opened a context menu on a 
dock item (using control click) and then used enter to access an option.

Enter seems to consistently work once a context menu is open. Are others not 
seeing this?

My apologies if I have misunderstood or have missed the point.

Cheers!

Cara



> On Mar 2, 2021, at 7:26 AM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> From my experience, I have had no problem opening the shortcut menu for a 
> Dock item using VO + Shift +M..  The real problem is accessing a selection 
> from a shortcut menu.
> In the beginning of this issue, routing the mouse pointer to the desired menu 
> item, and then performing a mouse click on the trackpad worked in most 
> situations.  However, since the 11.2 update, this work-around no longer 
> performs as it once did in the prior 11.1 update.  There has been no change 
> with the 11.2.2 update as well.
> This situation is both disappointing and unacceptable.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Mar 2, 2021, at 02:36, Jürgen Fleger  > wrote:
> 
> I only found one real solution to this issue: 
> Navigate to an element in the Dock.
> Switch off Trackpad Commander.
> Route mouse pointer to VO by pressing VO + CMD + F5. Pressing FN additionally 
> probably would be necessary in most cases.
> Hold down CTRL and press down Trackpad with one finger. Means perform a real 
> right click.
> If I do so the known context menu opens  reliably on my Mac. All other 
> suggestions didn’t work more than ones.
> All the best
> Jürgen
> 
> 
>> Am 02.03.2021 um 06:39 schrieb Brad Snyder > >:
>> 
>> I don’t find that using the Actions Menu helps get around any of the Big Sur 
>> Dock access issues.
>> Maybe I’m missing something here.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:51, John Panarese > > wrote:
>> 
>>Which can be done via the Action Menu with ease.
>> 
>> 
>> Take Care
>> 
>> John D. Panarese
>> Director
>> Mac for the Blind
>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com 
>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com 
>> 
>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
>> 
>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>> 
>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Brad Snyder >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Adding items to the Dock never has been a problem in Big Sur.  The problem 
>>> is accessing and working with the shortcut menu for Dock items in Big Sur.
>>> 
>>> - Brad -
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:36, Mike Arrigo >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I wonder if this person even tried a mac. Yes, there was an issue with disk 
>>> utility in the big sur recovery and I agree that this should have never 
>>> been released, but it is fixed now. I'm wondering what tasks the author of 
>>> this article wants to perform but is unable to do. There is still an issue 
>>> with adding and removing items from the dock using the keyboard but that's 
>>> not voiceover related directly.
>>> 
 On Mar 1, 2021, at 6:48 AM, kliph miller Sr >>> > wrote:
 
>> It’s clear to me about this article 2 things.
> 1. This is a windows user
> 2. They haven’t done there homework.
> Note: I am not the author of this article!
> 
>> Introduction
>> The modern era has brought many advantages for those who are blind or 
>> visually impaired. One of the most important tools a blind user uses 
>> with modern computing devices is a screen reader. Traditionally, screen 
>> readers have been very expensive third-party programs that were very 
>> difficult to obtain depending on one’s financial status. However, 
>> several free yet capable screen readers have emerged in the last 20 
>> years. The two that we will be discussing are Apple’s VoiceOver for 
>> macOS and the Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for Windows. Both are 
>> powerful screen readers in their own right, but they have their 
>> strengths and weaknesses which I will discuss in more detail. Hopefully 
>> by the end of this article, you will have a better understanding of each 
>> product and its individual strengths/weaknesses.
>> 
>> NVDA
>> Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for short is a free and open source 
>> screen reader for the Microsoft Windows operating system. The 
>> organization behind the project is an Australian company called NV 
>> Access (www.nvaccess.org ). It has been around 
>> since 2006 and primarily competes with the JAWS for Windows screen 
>> reader produced by Freedom Scientific or Vispero as they are now known 
>> by. It offers many of the same features that JAWS offers and should be 
>> suitable for 99% of screen reader users. The philosophy behind NVDA is

Re: Comparing VoiceOver And NVDA

2021-03-02 Thread Brad Snyder 
>From my experience, I have had no problem opening the shortcut menu for a Dock 
>item using VO + Shift +M..  The real problem is accessing a selection from a 
>shortcut menu.
In the beginning of this issue, routing the mouse pointer to the desired menu 
item, and then performing a mouse click on the trackpad worked in most 
situations.  However, since the 11.2 update, this work-around no longer 
performs as it once did in the prior 11.1 update.  There has been no change 
with the 11.2.2 update as well.
This situation is both disappointing and unacceptable.

- Brad -


On Mar 2, 2021, at 02:36, Jürgen Fleger  wrote:

I only found one real solution to this issue: 
Navigate to an element in the Dock.
Switch off Trackpad Commander.
Route mouse pointer to VO by pressing VO + CMD + F5. Pressing FN additionally 
probably would be necessary in most cases.
Hold down CTRL and press down Trackpad with one finger. Means perform a real 
right click.
If I do so the known context menu opens  reliably on my Mac. All other 
suggestions didn’t work more than ones.
All the best
Jürgen


> Am 02.03.2021 um 06:39 schrieb Brad Snyder  >:
> 
> I don’t find that using the Actions Menu helps get around any of the Big Sur 
> Dock access issues.
> Maybe I’m missing something here.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:51, John Panarese  > wrote:
> 
>Which can be done via the Action Menu with ease.
> 
> 
> Take Care
> 
> John D. Panarese
> Director
> Mac for the Blind
> Tel, (631) 724-4479
> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com 
> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com 
> 
> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
> 
> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
> 
> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Brad Snyder > > wrote:
>> 
>> Adding items to the Dock never has been a problem in Big Sur.  The problem 
>> is accessing and working with the shortcut menu for Dock items in Big Sur.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:36, Mike Arrigo > > wrote:
>> 
>> I wonder if this person even tried a mac. Yes, there was an issue with disk 
>> utility in the big sur recovery and I agree that this should have never been 
>> released, but it is fixed now. I'm wondering what tasks the author of this 
>> article wants to perform but is unable to do. There is still an issue with 
>> adding and removing items from the dock using the keyboard but that's not 
>> voiceover related directly.
>> 
>>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 6:48 AM, kliph miller Sr >> > wrote:
>>> 
> It’s clear to me about this article 2 things.
 1. This is a windows user
 2. They haven’t done there homework.
 Note: I am not the author of this article!
 
> Introduction
> The modern era has brought many advantages for those who are blind or 
> visually impaired. One of the most important tools a blind user uses with 
> modern computing devices is a screen reader. Traditionally, screen 
> readers have been very expensive third-party programs that were very 
> difficult to obtain depending on one’s financial status. However, several 
> free yet capable screen readers have emerged in the last 20 years. The 
> two that we will be discussing are Apple’s VoiceOver for macOS and the 
> Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for Windows. Both are powerful screen 
> readers in their own right, but they have their strengths and weaknesses 
> which I will discuss in more detail. Hopefully by the end of this 
> article, you will have a better understanding of each product and its 
> individual strengths/weaknesses.
> 
> NVDA
> Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for short is a free and open source 
> screen reader for the Microsoft Windows operating system. The 
> organization behind the project is an Australian company called NV Access 
> (www.nvaccess.org ). It has been around since 
> 2006 and primarily competes with the JAWS for Windows screen reader 
> produced by Freedom Scientific or Vispero as they are now known by. It 
> offers many of the same features that JAWS offers and should be suitable 
> for 99% of screen reader users. The philosophy behind NVDA is extremely 
> compelling. It is offered free of charge to anyone in the world, meaning 
> there is no longer a financial barrier for blind people to work, learn, 
> or do anything else on a computer. NV Access does rely on donations, 
> either from individuals or grants from large companies, so if you can 
> donate, it is very much worth it to help this amazing project continue 
> long into the future. The obvious benefit is that a blind person can 
> compete on a level playing field with sighted peers at no more cost than

Re: Comparing VoiceOver And NVDA

2021-03-02 Thread Jürgen Fleger 
I only found one real solution to this issue: 
Navigate to an element in the Dock.
Switch off Trackpad Commander.
Route mouse pointer to VO by pressing VO + CMD + F5. Pressing FN additionally 
probably would be necessary in most cases.
Hold down CTRL and press down Trackpad with one finger. Means perform a real 
right click.
If I do so the known context menu opens  reliably on my Mac. All other 
suggestions didn’t work more than ones.
All the best
Jürgen


> Am 02.03.2021 um 06:39 schrieb Brad Snyder :
> 
> I don’t find that using the Actions Menu helps get around any of the Big Sur 
> Dock access issues.
> Maybe I’m missing something here.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:51, John Panarese  > wrote:
> 
>Which can be done via the Action Menu with ease.
> 
> 
> Take Care
> 
> John D. Panarese
> Director
> Mac for the Blind
> Tel, (631) 724-4479
> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com 
> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com 
> 
> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
> 
> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
> 
> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Brad Snyder > > wrote:
>> 
>> Adding items to the Dock never has been a problem in Big Sur.  The problem 
>> is accessing and working with the shortcut menu for Dock items in Big Sur.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:36, Mike Arrigo > > wrote:
>> 
>> I wonder if this person even tried a mac. Yes, there was an issue with disk 
>> utility in the big sur recovery and I agree that this should have never been 
>> released, but it is fixed now. I'm wondering what tasks the author of this 
>> article wants to perform but is unable to do. There is still an issue with 
>> adding and removing items from the dock using the keyboard but that's not 
>> voiceover related directly.
>> 
>>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 6:48 AM, kliph miller Sr >> > wrote:
>>> 
> It’s clear to me about this article 2 things.
 1. This is a windows user
 2. They haven’t done there homework.
 Note: I am not the author of this article!
 
> Introduction
> The modern era has brought many advantages for those who are blind or 
> visually impaired. One of the most important tools a blind user uses with 
> modern computing devices is a screen reader. Traditionally, screen 
> readers have been very expensive third-party programs that were very 
> difficult to obtain depending on one’s financial status. However, several 
> free yet capable screen readers have emerged in the last 20 years. The 
> two that we will be discussing are Apple’s VoiceOver for macOS and the 
> Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for Windows. Both are powerful screen 
> readers in their own right, but they have their strengths and weaknesses 
> which I will discuss in more detail. Hopefully by the end of this 
> article, you will have a better understanding of each product and its 
> individual strengths/weaknesses.
> 
> NVDA
> Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for short is a free and open source 
> screen reader for the Microsoft Windows operating system. The 
> organization behind the project is an Australian company called NV Access 
> (www.nvaccess.org ). It has been around since 
> 2006 and primarily competes with the JAWS for Windows screen reader 
> produced by Freedom Scientific or Vispero as they are now known by. It 
> offers many of the same features that JAWS offers and should be suitable 
> for 99% of screen reader users. The philosophy behind NVDA is extremely 
> compelling. It is offered free of charge to anyone in the world, meaning 
> there is no longer a financial barrier for blind people to work, learn, 
> or do anything else on a computer. NV Access does rely on donations, 
> either from individuals or grants from large companies, so if you can 
> donate, it is very much worth it to help this amazing project continue 
> long into the future. The obvious benefit is that a blind person can 
> compete on a level playing field with sighted peers at no more cost than 
> anyone else. Updates to NVDA are also free, and NV Access releases 3-4 
> updates per year that fix bugs and add new features.
> 
> Since NVDA is open source, anyone is free to review the source code and 
> propose changes. While anyone can propose a change and submit code, it’s 
> still reviewed and approved by NV Access before it is included in 
> anything anyone can download. This ensures the security of the software 
> from unauthorised changes and means that the final product available from 
> https://www.nvaccess.org/  is just as secure 
> and well vetted as the closed

Re: Comparing VoiceOver And NVDA

2021-03-01 Thread Brad Snyder 
I don’t find that using the Actions Menu helps get around any of the Big Sur 
Dock access issues.
Maybe I’m missing something here.

- Brad -


On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:51, John Panarese  wrote:

   Which can be done via the Action Menu with ease.


Take Care

John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, j...@macfortheblind.com 
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com 

APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer

AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE

MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT




> On Mar 1, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Brad Snyder  > wrote:
> 
> Adding items to the Dock never has been a problem in Big Sur.  The problem is 
> accessing and working with the shortcut menu for Dock items in Big Sur.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:36, Mike Arrigo  > wrote:
> 
> I wonder if this person even tried a mac. Yes, there was an issue with disk 
> utility in the big sur recovery and I agree that this should have never been 
> released, but it is fixed now. I'm wondering what tasks the author of this 
> article wants to perform but is unable to do. There is still an issue with 
> adding and removing items from the dock using the keyboard but that's not 
> voiceover related directly.
> 
>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 6:48 AM, kliph miller Sr > > wrote:
>> 
 It’s clear to me about this article 2 things.
>>> 1. This is a windows user
>>> 2. They haven’t done there homework.
>>> Note: I am not the author of this article!
>>> 
 Introduction
 The modern era has brought many advantages for those who are blind or 
 visually impaired. One of the most important tools a blind user uses with 
 modern computing devices is a screen reader. Traditionally, screen readers 
 have been very expensive third-party programs that were very difficult to 
 obtain depending on one’s financial status. However, several free yet 
 capable screen readers have emerged in the last 20 years. The two that we 
 will be discussing are Apple’s VoiceOver for macOS and the Nonvisual 
 Desktop Access or NVDA for Windows. Both are powerful screen readers in 
 their own right, but they have their strengths and weaknesses which I will 
 discuss in more detail. Hopefully by the end of this article, you will 
 have a better understanding of each product and its individual 
 strengths/weaknesses.
 
 NVDA
 Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for short is a free and open source 
 screen reader for the Microsoft Windows operating system. The organization 
 behind the project is an Australian company called NV Access 
 (www.nvaccess.org ). It has been around since 
 2006 and primarily competes with the JAWS for Windows screen reader 
 produced by Freedom Scientific or Vispero as they are now known by. It 
 offers many of the same features that JAWS offers and should be suitable 
 for 99% of screen reader users. The philosophy behind NVDA is extremely 
 compelling. It is offered free of charge to anyone in the world, meaning 
 there is no longer a financial barrier for blind people to work, learn, or 
 do anything else on a computer. NV Access does rely on donations, either 
 from individuals or grants from large companies, so if you can donate, it 
 is very much worth it to help this amazing project continue long into the 
 future. The obvious benefit is that a blind person can compete on a level 
 playing field with sighted peers at no more cost than anyone else. Updates 
 to NVDA are also free, and NV Access releases 3-4 updates per year that 
 fix bugs and add new features.
 
 Since NVDA is open source, anyone is free to review the source code and 
 propose changes. While anyone can propose a change and submit code, it’s 
 still reviewed and approved by NV Access before it is included in anything 
 anyone can download. This ensures the security of the software from 
 unauthorised changes and means that the final product available from 
 https://www.nvaccess.org/  is just as secure 
 and well vetted as the closed source from another company. Thousands of 
 people from all over the world constantly contribute to the project which 
 benefits everyone in the end. NVDA is a screen reader made for the blind 
 by the blind. NV Access is overseen by a board of directors (of whom at 
 least 33% must be blind or vision impaired, according to their 
 constitution.
 
 VoiceOver
 VoiceOver is Apple’s built-in and the only screen reader for the Mac. It 
 has been around since 2005, although the last significant update was in 
 2011 with Mac OS X Lion. VoiceOver works well with Apple’s built-in apps 
 and used to be very reliable. Since

Re: Comparing VoiceOver And NVDA

2021-03-01 Thread Mike Arrigo 
The shortcut menu does not work, whether you press the up arrow to open the 
menu which used to work, or you do vo+shift+m on a dock item, or even right 
click the mouse on an item, it doesn't work, at least not on any of my macs.

> On Mar 1, 2021, at 6:51 PM, John Panarese  wrote:
> 
>Which can be done via the Action Menu with ease.
> 
> 
> Take Care
> 
> John D. Panarese
> Director
> Mac for the Blind
> Tel, (631) 724-4479
> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
> 
> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer
> 
> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
> 
> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
>> 
>> Adding items to the Dock never has been a problem in Big Sur.  The problem 
>> is accessing and working with the shortcut menu for Dock items in Big Sur.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:36, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
>> 
>> I wonder if this person even tried a mac. Yes, there was an issue with disk 
>> utility in the big sur recovery and I agree that this should have never been 
>> released, but it is fixed now. I'm wondering what tasks the author of this 
>> article wants to perform but is unable to do. There is still an issue with 
>> adding and removing items from the dock using the keyboard but that's not 
>> voiceover related directly.
>> 
>>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 6:48 AM, kliph miller Sr  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
> It’s clear to me about this article 2 things.
 1. This is a windows user
 2. They haven’t done there homework.
 Note: I am not the author of this article!
 
> Introduction
> The modern era has brought many advantages for those who are blind or 
> visually impaired. One of the most important tools a blind user uses with 
> modern computing devices is a screen reader. Traditionally, screen 
> readers have been very expensive third-party programs that were very 
> difficult to obtain depending on one’s financial status. However, several 
> free yet capable screen readers have emerged in the last 20 years. The 
> two that we will be discussing are Apple’s VoiceOver for macOS and the 
> Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for Windows. Both are powerful screen 
> readers in their own right, but they have their strengths and weaknesses 
> which I will discuss in more detail. Hopefully by the end of this 
> article, you will have a better understanding of each product and its 
> individual strengths/weaknesses.
> 
> NVDA
> Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for short is a free and open source 
> screen reader for the Microsoft Windows operating system. The 
> organization behind the project is an Australian company called NV Access 
> (www.nvaccess.org). It has been around since 2006 and primarily competes 
> with the JAWS for Windows screen reader produced by Freedom Scientific or 
> Vispero as they are now known by. It offers many of the same features 
> that JAWS offers and should be suitable for 99% of screen reader users. 
> The philosophy behind NVDA is extremely compelling. It is offered free of 
> charge to anyone in the world, meaning there is no longer a financial 
> barrier for blind people to work, learn, or do anything else on a 
> computer. NV Access does rely on donations, either from individuals or 
> grants from large companies, so if you can donate, it is very much worth 
> it to help this amazing project continue long into the future. The 
> obvious benefit is that a blind person can compete on a level playing 
> field with sighted peers at no more cost than anyone else. Updates to 
> NVDA are also free, and NV Access releases 3-4 updates per year that fix 
> bugs and add new features.
> 
> Since NVDA is open source, anyone is free to review the source code and 
> propose changes. While anyone can propose a change and submit code, it’s 
> still reviewed and approved by NV Access before it is included in 
> anything anyone can download. This ensures the security of the software 
> from unauthorised changes and means that the final product available from 
> https://www.nvaccess.org/ is just as secure and well vetted as the closed 
> source from another company. Thousands of people from all over the world 
> constantly contribute to the project which benefits everyone in the end. 
> NVDA is a screen reader made for the blind by the blind. NV Access is 
> overseen by a board of directors (of whom at least 33% must be blind or 
> vision impaired, according to their constitution.
> 
> VoiceOver
> VoiceOver is Apple’s built-in and the only screen reader for the Mac. It 
> has been around since 2005, although the last significant update was in 
> 2011 with Mac OS X Lion. VoiceOver works well with Apple’s built-in apps 
> and used to be very reliable. Since it is

Re: Comparing VoiceOver And NVDA

2021-03-01 Thread Eric Oyen 
Yeah,
He sounds like a total windows user. I Happen to be very conversant with both 
windows and OS X. Right now, I am still on Catalina. Most of the issues he 
alluded to in VoiceOver don’t seem to crop up all that often. However, some 
javascript running on a few of the more busy news sites will cause it to crash 
and restart. That, however, may be a Javascript issue.

Now, as for windows, I make use of both NVDA and JAWS. Of the two, JAWS is much 
more refined, has a scripting interface (that NVDA does not) and can remote 
access other machines with the same version or lesser version of JAWS on board. 
That is something that NVDA can’t, as yet, do. For a free product, however, 
NVDA is pretty good. It compares to ORCCA on many Linux desktop environments. 
That is one I also use and am even more conversant with. Oh, and technically, 
VoiceOver is not free, it just happens to be included on apple hardware that 
you still have to pay a butt load of money for.

Last point: each screen reader does bring something to the table. Each one has 
their strengths, but also has weaknesses that others might not have, or have to 
a lesser degree. However, one weakness that exists on all screen readers are 
apps or pages that haven’t been coded with accessibility even being considered. 
This makes the life of a blind computer user somewhat problematic. There are 
workarounds to be sure, but in the end, we are just not considered as a 
population of importance on the web.

-Eric


> On Mar 1, 2021, at 5:36 PM, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
> 
> I wonder if this person even tried a mac. Yes, there was an issue with disk 
> utility in the big sur recovery and I agree that this should have never been 
> released, but it is fixed now. I'm wondering what tasks the author of this 
> article wants to perform but is unable to do. There is still an issue with 
> adding and removing items from the dock using the keyboard but that's not 
> voiceover related directly.
> 
>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 6:48 AM, kliph miller Sr  
>> wrote:
>> 
 It’s clear to me about this article 2 things.
>>> 1. This is a windows user
>>> 2. They haven’t done there homework.
>>> Note: I am not the author of this article!
>>> 
 Introduction
 The modern era has brought many advantages for those who are blind or 
 visually impaired. One of the most important tools a blind user uses with 
 modern computing devices is a screen reader. Traditionally, screen readers 
 have been very expensive third-party programs that were very difficult to 
 obtain depending on one’s financial status. However, several free yet 
 capable screen readers have emerged in the last 20 years. The two that we 
 will be discussing are Apple’s VoiceOver for macOS and the Nonvisual 
 Desktop Access or NVDA for Windows. Both are powerful screen readers in 
 their own right, but they have their strengths and weaknesses which I will 
 discuss in more detail. Hopefully by the end of this article, you will 
 have a better understanding of each product and its individual 
 strengths/weaknesses.
 
 NVDA
 Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for short is a free and open source 
 screen reader for the Microsoft Windows operating system. The organization 
 behind the project is an Australian company called NV Access 
 (www.nvaccess.org). It has been around since 2006 and primarily competes 
 with the JAWS for Windows screen reader produced by Freedom Scientific or 
 Vispero as they are now known by. It offers many of the same features that 
 JAWS offers and should be suitable for 99% of screen reader users. The 
 philosophy behind NVDA is extremely compelling. It is offered free of 
 charge to anyone in the world, meaning there is no longer a financial 
 barrier for blind people to work, learn, or do anything else on a 
 computer. NV Access does rely on donations, either from individuals or 
 grants from large companies, so if you can donate, it is very much worth 
 it to help this amazing project continue long into the future. The obvious 
 benefit is that a blind person can compete on a level playing field with 
 sighted peers at no more cost than anyone else. Updates to NVDA are also 
 free, and NV Access releases 3-4 updates per year that fix bugs and add 
 new features.
 
 Since NVDA is open source, anyone is free to review the source code and 
 propose changes. While anyone can propose a change and submit code, it’s 
 still reviewed and approved by NV Access before it is included in anything 
 anyone can download. This ensures the security of the software from 
 unauthorised changes and means that the final product available from 
 https://www.nvaccess.org/ is just as secure and well vetted as the closed 
 source from another company. Thousands of people from all over the world 
 constantly contribute to the project which benefits everyone in

Re: Comparing VoiceOver And NVDA

2021-03-01 Thread John Panarese 
   Which can be done via the Action Menu with ease.


Take Care

John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com

APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer

AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE

MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT




> On Mar 1, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Adding items to the Dock never has been a problem in Big Sur.  The problem is 
> accessing and working with the shortcut menu for Dock items in Big Sur.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:36, Mike Arrigo  > wrote:
> 
> I wonder if this person even tried a mac. Yes, there was an issue with disk 
> utility in the big sur recovery and I agree that this should have never been 
> released, but it is fixed now. I'm wondering what tasks the author of this 
> article wants to perform but is unable to do. There is still an issue with 
> adding and removing items from the dock using the keyboard but that's not 
> voiceover related directly.
> 
>> On Mar 1, 2021, at 6:48 AM, kliph miller Sr > > wrote:
>> 
 It’s clear to me about this article 2 things.
>>> 1. This is a windows user
>>> 2. They haven’t done there homework.
>>> Note: I am not the author of this article!
>>> 
 Introduction
 The modern era has brought many advantages for those who are blind or 
 visually impaired. One of the most important tools a blind user uses with 
 modern computing devices is a screen reader. Traditionally, screen readers 
 have been very expensive third-party programs that were very difficult to 
 obtain depending on one’s financial status. However, several free yet 
 capable screen readers have emerged in the last 20 years. The two that we 
 will be discussing are Apple’s VoiceOver for macOS and the Nonvisual 
 Desktop Access or NVDA for Windows. Both are powerful screen readers in 
 their own right, but they have their strengths and weaknesses which I will 
 discuss in more detail. Hopefully by the end of this article, you will 
 have a better understanding of each product and its individual 
 strengths/weaknesses.
 
 NVDA
 Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for short is a free and open source 
 screen reader for the Microsoft Windows operating system. The organization 
 behind the project is an Australian company called NV Access 
 (www.nvaccess.org ). It has been around since 
 2006 and primarily competes with the JAWS for Windows screen reader 
 produced by Freedom Scientific or Vispero as they are now known by. It 
 offers many of the same features that JAWS offers and should be suitable 
 for 99% of screen reader users. The philosophy behind NVDA is extremely 
 compelling. It is offered free of charge to anyone in the world, meaning 
 there is no longer a financial barrier for blind people to work, learn, or 
 do anything else on a computer. NV Access does rely on donations, either 
 from individuals or grants from large companies, so if you can donate, it 
 is very much worth it to help this amazing project continue long into the 
 future. The obvious benefit is that a blind person can compete on a level 
 playing field with sighted peers at no more cost than anyone else. Updates 
 to NVDA are also free, and NV Access releases 3-4 updates per year that 
 fix bugs and add new features.
 
 Since NVDA is open source, anyone is free to review the source code and 
 propose changes. While anyone can propose a change and submit code, it’s 
 still reviewed and approved by NV Access before it is included in anything 
 anyone can download. This ensures the security of the software from 
 unauthorised changes and means that the final product available from 
 https://www.nvaccess.org/  is just as secure 
 and well vetted as the closed source from another company. Thousands of 
 people from all over the world constantly contribute to the project which 
 benefits everyone in the end. NVDA is a screen reader made for the blind 
 by the blind. NV Access is overseen by a board of directors (of whom at 
 least 33% must be blind or vision impaired, according to their 
 constitution.
 
 VoiceOver
 VoiceOver is Apple’s built-in and the only screen reader for the Mac. It 
 has been around since 2005, although the last significant update was in 
 2011 with Mac OS X Lion. VoiceOver works well with Apple’s built-in apps 
 and used to be very reliable. Since it is built into the system, anyone 
 can walk up to a Mac running a modern version of macOS and get it talking 
 by pressing Command+F5. Apple should be commended for building a very 
 capable screen reader into the system and showing the rest of the world 
 that it is

Re: Comparing VoiceOver And NVDA

2021-03-01 Thread Brad Snyder 
Adding items to the Dock never has been a problem in Big Sur.  The problem is 
accessing and working with the shortcut menu for Dock items in Big Sur.

- Brad -


On Mar 1, 2021, at 18:36, Mike Arrigo  wrote:

I wonder if this person even tried a mac. Yes, there was an issue with disk 
utility in the big sur recovery and I agree that this should have never been 
released, but it is fixed now. I'm wondering what tasks the author of this 
article wants to perform but is unable to do. There is still an issue with 
adding and removing items from the dock using the keyboard but that's not 
voiceover related directly.

> On Mar 1, 2021, at 6:48 AM, kliph miller Sr  wrote:
> 
>>> It’s clear to me about this article 2 things.
>> 1. This is a windows user
>> 2. They haven’t done there homework.
>> Note: I am not the author of this article!
>> 
>>> Introduction
>>> The modern era has brought many advantages for those who are blind or 
>>> visually impaired. One of the most important tools a blind user uses with 
>>> modern computing devices is a screen reader. Traditionally, screen readers 
>>> have been very expensive third-party programs that were very difficult to 
>>> obtain depending on one’s financial status. However, several free yet 
>>> capable screen readers have emerged in the last 20 years. The two that we 
>>> will be discussing are Apple’s VoiceOver for macOS and the Nonvisual 
>>> Desktop Access or NVDA for Windows. Both are powerful screen readers in 
>>> their own right, but they have their strengths and weaknesses which I will 
>>> discuss in more detail. Hopefully by the end of this article, you will have 
>>> a better understanding of each product and its individual 
>>> strengths/weaknesses.
>>> 
>>> NVDA
>>> Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for short is a free and open source screen 
>>> reader for the Microsoft Windows operating system. The organization behind 
>>> the project is an Australian company called NV Access (www.nvaccess.org). 
>>> It has been around since 2006 and primarily competes with the JAWS for 
>>> Windows screen reader produced by Freedom Scientific or Vispero as they are 
>>> now known by. It offers many of the same features that JAWS offers and 
>>> should be suitable for 99% of screen reader users. The philosophy behind 
>>> NVDA is extremely compelling. It is offered free of charge to anyone in the 
>>> world, meaning there is no longer a financial barrier for blind people to 
>>> work, learn, or do anything else on a computer. NV Access does rely on 
>>> donations, either from individuals or grants from large companies, so if 
>>> you can donate, it is very much worth it to help this amazing project 
>>> continue long into the future. The obvious benefit is that a blind person 
>>> can compete on a level playing field with sighted peers at no more cost 
>>> than anyone else. Updates to NVDA are also free, and NV Access releases 3-4 
>>> updates per year that fix bugs and add new features.
>>> 
>>> Since NVDA is open source, anyone is free to review the source code and 
>>> propose changes. While anyone can propose a change and submit code, it’s 
>>> still reviewed and approved by NV Access before it is included in anything 
>>> anyone can download. This ensures the security of the software from 
>>> unauthorised changes and means that the final product available from 
>>> https://www.nvaccess.org/ is just as secure and well vetted as the closed 
>>> source from another company. Thousands of people from all over the world 
>>> constantly contribute to the project which benefits everyone in the end. 
>>> NVDA is a screen reader made for the blind by the blind. NV Access is 
>>> overseen by a board of directors (of whom at least 33% must be blind or 
>>> vision impaired, according to their constitution.
>>> 
>>> VoiceOver
>>> VoiceOver is Apple’s built-in and the only screen reader for the Mac. It 
>>> has been around since 2005, although the last significant update was in 
>>> 2011 with Mac OS X Lion. VoiceOver works well with Apple’s built-in apps 
>>> and used to be very reliable. Since it is built into the system, anyone can 
>>> walk up to a Mac running a modern version of macOS and get it talking by 
>>> pressing Command+F5. Apple should be commended for building a very capable 
>>> screen reader into the system and showing the rest of the world that it is 
>>> possible to build very robust accessibility features into mainstream 
>>> products.
>>> 
>>> As previously mentioned, however, VoiceOver is not as reliable as it could 
>>> or should be. Apple has not made significant changes in nearly a decade, 
>>> and bugs are rarely if ever fixed. Issues have piled up over the years and 
>>> the experience, while still good, is far from satisfactory depending on the 
>>> tasks you wish to do. The latest trend appears to be introducing bugs that 
>>> make certain things unusable. For example, there is a bug in macOS Big Sur 
>>> where VoiceOver crashes when opening the

Re: Comparing VoiceOver And NVDA

2021-03-01 Thread Mike Arrigo 
I wonder if this person even tried a mac. Yes, there was an issue with disk 
utility in the big sur recovery and I agree that this should have never been 
released, but it is fixed now. I'm wondering what tasks the author of this 
article wants to perform but is unable to do. There is still an issue with 
adding and removing items from the dock using the keyboard but that's not 
voiceover related directly.

> On Mar 1, 2021, at 6:48 AM, kliph miller Sr  wrote:
> 
>>> It’s clear to me about this article 2 things.
>> 1. This is a windows user
>> 2. They haven’t done there homework.
>> Note: I am not the author of this article!
>> 
>>> Introduction
>>> The modern era has brought many advantages for those who are blind or 
>>> visually impaired. One of the most important tools a blind user uses with 
>>> modern computing devices is a screen reader. Traditionally, screen readers 
>>> have been very expensive third-party programs that were very difficult to 
>>> obtain depending on one’s financial status. However, several free yet 
>>> capable screen readers have emerged in the last 20 years. The two that we 
>>> will be discussing are Apple’s VoiceOver for macOS and the Nonvisual 
>>> Desktop Access or NVDA for Windows. Both are powerful screen readers in 
>>> their own right, but they have their strengths and weaknesses which I will 
>>> discuss in more detail. Hopefully by the end of this article, you will have 
>>> a better understanding of each product and its individual 
>>> strengths/weaknesses.
>>> 
>>> NVDA
>>> Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for short is a free and open source screen 
>>> reader for the Microsoft Windows operating system. The organization behind 
>>> the project is an Australian company called NV Access (www.nvaccess.org). 
>>> It has been around since 2006 and primarily competes with the JAWS for 
>>> Windows screen reader produced by Freedom Scientific or Vispero as they are 
>>> now known by. It offers many of the same features that JAWS offers and 
>>> should be suitable for 99% of screen reader users. The philosophy behind 
>>> NVDA is extremely compelling. It is offered free of charge to anyone in the 
>>> world, meaning there is no longer a financial barrier for blind people to 
>>> work, learn, or do anything else on a computer. NV Access does rely on 
>>> donations, either from individuals or grants from large companies, so if 
>>> you can donate, it is very much worth it to help this amazing project 
>>> continue long into the future. The obvious benefit is that a blind person 
>>> can compete on a level playing field with sighted peers at no more cost 
>>> than anyone else. Updates to NVDA are also free, and NV Access releases 3-4 
>>> updates per year that fix bugs and add new features.
>>> 
>>> Since NVDA is open source, anyone is free to review the source code and 
>>> propose changes. While anyone can propose a change and submit code, it’s 
>>> still reviewed and approved by NV Access before it is included in anything 
>>> anyone can download. This ensures the security of the software from 
>>> unauthorised changes and means that the final product available from 
>>> https://www.nvaccess.org/ is just as secure and well vetted as the closed 
>>> source from another company. Thousands of people from all over the world 
>>> constantly contribute to the project which benefits everyone in the end. 
>>> NVDA is a screen reader made for the blind by the blind. NV Access is 
>>> overseen by a board of directors (of whom at least 33% must be blind or 
>>> vision impaired, according to their constitution.
>>> 
>>> VoiceOver
>>> VoiceOver is Apple’s built-in and the only screen reader for the Mac. It 
>>> has been around since 2005, although the last significant update was in 
>>> 2011 with Mac OS X Lion. VoiceOver works well with Apple’s built-in apps 
>>> and used to be very reliable. Since it is built into the system, anyone can 
>>> walk up to a Mac running a modern version of macOS and get it talking by 
>>> pressing Command+F5. Apple should be commended for building a very capable 
>>> screen reader into the system and showing the rest of the world that it is 
>>> possible to build very robust accessibility features into mainstream 
>>> products.
>>> 
>>> As previously mentioned, however, VoiceOver is not as reliable as it could 
>>> or should be. Apple has not made significant changes in nearly a decade, 
>>> and bugs are rarely if ever fixed. Issues have piled up over the years and 
>>> the experience, while still good, is far from satisfactory depending on the 
>>> tasks you wish to do. The latest trend appears to be introducing bugs that 
>>> make certain things unusable. For example, there is a bug in macOS Big Sur 
>>> where VoiceOver crashes when opening the Disk Utility application in macOS 
>>> Recovery mode. This is absolutely unacceptable and would be fixed promptly 
>>> if it was impacting sighted users, yet someone somewhere decided it was 
>>> okay to release

Comparing VoiceOver And NVDA

2021-03-01 Thread kliph miller Sr 
>> It’s clear to me about this article 2 things.
> 1. This is a windows user
> 2. They haven’t done there homework.
> Note: I am not the author of this article!
> 
>> Introduction
>> The modern era has brought many advantages for those who are blind or 
>> visually impaired. One of the most important tools a blind user uses with 
>> modern computing devices is a screen reader. Traditionally, screen readers 
>> have been very expensive third-party programs that were very difficult to 
>> obtain depending on one’s financial status. However, several free yet 
>> capable screen readers have emerged in the last 20 years. The two that we 
>> will be discussing are Apple’s VoiceOver for macOS and the Nonvisual Desktop 
>> Access or NVDA for Windows. Both are powerful screen readers in their own 
>> right, but they have their strengths and weaknesses which I will discuss in 
>> more detail. Hopefully by the end of this article, you will have a better 
>> understanding of each product and its individual strengths/weaknesses.
>> 
>> NVDA
>> Nonvisual Desktop Access or NVDA for short is a free and open source screen 
>> reader for the Microsoft Windows operating system. The organization behind 
>> the project is an Australian company called NV Access (www.nvaccess.org 
>> ). It has been around since 2006 and primarily 
>> competes with the JAWS for Windows screen reader produced by Freedom 
>> Scientific or Vispero as they are now known by. It offers many of the same 
>> features that JAWS offers and should be suitable for 99% of screen reader 
>> users. The philosophy behind NVDA is extremely compelling. It is offered 
>> free of charge to anyone in the world, meaning there is no longer a 
>> financial barrier for blind people to work, learn, or do anything else on a 
>> computer. NV Access does rely on donations, either from individuals or 
>> grants from large companies, so if you can donate, it is very much worth it 
>> to help this amazing project continue long into the future. The obvious 
>> benefit is that a blind person can compete on a level playing field with 
>> sighted peers at no more cost than anyone else. Updates to NVDA are also 
>> free, and NV Access releases 3-4 updates per year that fix bugs and add new 
>> features.
>> 
>> Since NVDA is open source , 
>> anyone is free to review the source code and propose changes. While anyone 
>> can propose a change and submit code, it’s still reviewed and approved by NV 
>> Access before it is included in anything anyone can download. This ensures 
>> the security of the software from unauthorised changes and means that the 
>> final product available from https://www.nvaccess.org/ 
>>  is just as secure and well vetted as the closed 
>> source from another company. Thousands of people from all over the world 
>> constantly contribute to the project which benefits everyone in the end. 
>> NVDA is a screen reader made for the blind by the blind. NV Access is 
>> overseen by a board of directors (of whom at least 33% must be blind or 
>> vision impaired, according to their constitution 
>> .
>> 
>> VoiceOver
>> VoiceOver  is 
>> Apple’s built-in and the only screen reader for the Mac. It has been around 
>> since 2005, although the last significant update was in 2011 with Mac OS X 
>> Lion. VoiceOver works well with Apple’s built-in apps and used to be very 
>> reliable. Since it is built into the system, anyone can walk up to a Mac 
>> running a modern version of macOS and get it talking by pressing Command+F5. 
>> Apple should be commended for building a very capable screen reader into the 
>> system and showing the rest of the world that it is possible to build very 
>> robust accessibility features into mainstream products.
>> 
>> As previously mentioned, however, VoiceOver is not as reliable as it could 
>> or should be. Apple has not made significant changes in nearly a decade, and 
>> bugs are rarely if ever fixed. Issues have piled up over the years and the 
>> experience, while still good, is far from satisfactory depending on the 
>> tasks you wish to do. The latest trend appears to be introducing bugs that 
>> make certain things unusable. For example, there is a bug in macOS Big Sur 
>> where VoiceOver crashes when opening the Disk Utility application in macOS 
>> Recovery mode 
>> .
>>  This is absolutely unacceptable and would be fixed promptly if it was 
>> impacting sighted users, yet someone somewhere decided it was okay to 
>> release with this broken feature for blind users. This goes against Apple’s 
>> commitment to accessibility 
>>  and the high 
>> standard of quality many would