RE: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Simon Fogarty]

Yeah I'd like to know also, I've only managed to do this through the remotes 
touch screen.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> On 
Behalf Of Cara Quinn
Sent: Thursday, 15 March 2018 4:07 AM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Hey Kliphton,

Thanks for your note. I’m not sure if you’ve read the entire thread so far 
before posting this but I’ve actually tried changing the rotor settings via the 
keyboard and nothing seems to happen.

I’ve even tried using the remote to change the rotor while using the keyboard 
and the keyboard behavior does not change a bit.

So I would sure be happy if you can come back and explain exactly how you are 
making this work. You’d be helping make my life a whole lot easier, so I would 
really dig it! :)

thanks very much.

Now, as for the cliches about people, please chill out on it. Not just speaking 
for myself here, but pretty much everyone here on this list, just in the mere 
fact of being here says that there is a certain adventurous spirit among folks 
here.

So saying that people dislike change is way too general and kind of a cop out 
don’t you think?… :)

Many of us here are early adopters of a lot of technologies, as I am sure you 
are also.

Anyway, we are all welcome to our opinions here and put simply, change 
depending on why it happens is not necessarily always a good or smart thing. 
Personally, having designed UI myself, advised large audiences of UX designers 
on good UI and UX design, and also having the pleasure and privilege of being 
able to work with absolute experts in the field, I have some thoughts and 
opinions on this, which I will stand by. -For now at least. :) If someone wants 
to show me I’ve made a mistake etc, then that’s cool too! :) No worries, we all 
do it from time to time…

Anyway, thanks for your note, please please please let me know how you are 
managing to get your BT keyboard arrow keys to work the way you are mentioning. 
I will be very appreciative.

thanks bunches Kliphton, and have a great day!

Cheers!

Cara

On Mar 14, 2018, at 5:51 AM, Kliphton Miller <kliph...@icloud.com> wrote:

Few things here.  The blu tooth keyboard for me works just fine, and I use 2 
different ones.  The key is, making sure your router is set to direct touch, 
then you can navigate any direction you want, even entering text.  And I have 
been using the appleTV4 since it’s 1st release, now using a appleTV4K, and it 
works fine with my bt keyboard also.  In regards to fast forwarding and 
rewinding, I have no issue there either, this goes with trial and error though. 
 Your router must be set to follow focus, and you will have no issues 
performing fast forward or rewind.  As for the music app, I again make sure the 
rotter is set to the corresponding setting, and things should work as normal.  
People don’t like change, and sometimes this keeps them from exploring options 
because things are done differently, but exploring options will grant you a 
pleasant surprise.
JMO
> On Mar 13, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Cara Quinn <caraqu...@caraquinn.com> wrote:
> 
> Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
> 4th Gen.
> 
> In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
> accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.
> 
> There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.
> 
> The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
> disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
> that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
> triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to 
> leave the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.
> 
> I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
> have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both 
> remotes work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th 
> Gen with VO apparently.
> 
> secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
> absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
> using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
> this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad 
> on the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many 
> complaints from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go 
> and read reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every 
> single review is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. 
> This is actually the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.
> 
> Lastly, (and th

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Kliphton Miller]

Oh, BTW, I only need to use the arrow keys, not the voiceover keys.

> On Mar 14, 2018, at 6:44 PM, Cara Quinn  wrote:
> 
> Hi Kliphton,
> 
> thanks very much. I sure appreciate the apology and the assistance too. :) 
> Hopefully I did not come off too strongly either. It’s not always easy to 
> gage tone in email.
> 
> Yeah, that must be really obnoxious when customers are kind of disregarding 
> the fact that you are a business and need to make some money so you can keep 
> that going. Serious kudos to you for being in the restaurant business! You 
> rock! :) where is your cafe?…
> 
> As for the keyboard, I have Apple BT keyboards (both the second and third 
> gen) I am currently using the third gen with the Apple TV.
> 
> After reading your earlier note, I did a Google search to see if I could find 
> anything out about this and I did find a tip on an Apple Vis forum about 
> switching the rotor to ‘Follow Focus’ so I tried switching the rotor to this 
> via the remote and I was able to get the arrow keys to work for the four 
> directions but only if the Voiceover keys were held down or locked.
> 
> Unfortunately, in this configuration, I cannot then use the enter key to 
> choose options on the Apple TV home screen without then needing to turn off 
> Voiceover.
> 
> What rotor option are you using?
> 
> this concerns me greatly, as a blind user should not need to press three keys 
> at a time (control option and an arrow) and need to use two hands vs one to 
> do what a sighted user can do with only one key press. I.E. If you turn off 
> Voiceover, all you need to do is simply press an arrow key and the cursor 
> moves there. When you get where you need to go, you simply press enter and 
> the action is done.
> 
> Why should a user with a disability need to be using two hands, pressing 
> multiple keys and then also need to toggle VO off simply to accomplish 
> navigation by way of the keyboard.
> 
> This is different from the Mac where Voiceover is meant to avoid key 
> conflicts. So in this case, this appears to just be arbitrary. -Especially 
> since keyboard navigation has worked so easily and simply for both sighted 
> and visually impaired customers alike until now.
> 
> Am I doing something wrong? This is supposed to be an easy, enjoyable and 
> streamlined experience. Yes?…
> 
> So are you saying that there is an option that is actually allowing the 
> arrows and enter key to work as they do with VO off?
> 
> Thanks Kliphton, any other suggestions you can offer would be fantastic!
> 
> Have an awesome evening!
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Cara
> 
> On Mar 14, 2018, at 3:19 PM, Kliphton Miller  wrote:
> 
> Hello, sorry about that statement of some people don’t like change.  I run my 
> own cafe, and those customers sometime get under my skin complaining about 
> price change, expecting everything to be free.  Anyway, I am using a Logitech 
> k811 BT keyboard, I don’t know if the model matter.  As for changing rodder 
> options, I do it with the Siri remote, not with keyboard.  But it still gets 
> the job done.  What keyboard are you trying to use?  Again, sorry for the 
> general statement, meant no disrespect.
> 
>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 11:06 AM, Cara Quinn  wrote:
>> 
>> Hey Kliphton,
>> 
>> Thanks for your note. I’m not sure if you’ve read the entire thread so far 
>> before posting this but I’ve actually tried changing the rotor settings via 
>> the keyboard and nothing seems to happen.
>> 
>> I’ve even tried using the remote to change the rotor while using the 
>> keyboard and the keyboard behavior does not change a bit.
>> 
>> So I would sure be happy if you can come back and explain exactly how you 
>> are making this work. You’d be helping make my life a whole lot easier, so I 
>> would really dig it! :)
>> 
>> thanks very much.
>> 
>> Now, as for the cliches about people, please chill out on it. Not just 
>> speaking for myself here, but pretty much everyone here on this list, just 
>> in the mere fact of being here says that there is a certain adventurous 
>> spirit among folks here.
>> 
>> So saying that people dislike change is way too general and kind of a cop 
>> out don’t you think?… :)
>> 
>> Many of us here are early adopters of a lot of technologies, as I am sure 
>> you are also.
>> 
>> Anyway, we are all welcome to our opinions here and put simply, change 
>> depending on why it happens is not necessarily always a good or smart thing. 
>> Personally, having designed UI myself, advised large audiences of UX 
>> designers on good UI and UX design, and also having the pleasure and 
>> privilege of being able to work with absolute experts in the field, I have 
>> some thoughts and opinions on this, which I will stand by. -For now at 
>> least. :) If someone wants to show me I’ve made a mistake etc, then that’s 
>> cool too! :) No worries, we all do it from time to time…
>> 
>> Anyway, thanks for your note, please 

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Kliphton Miller]

That has to be frustrating!  Using an apple keyboard with a apple product and 
it still doesn’t work?  That is not good, I use a   3rd party keyboard also, 
called baton wireless keyboard on amazon.  It’s only 10 bucks, and works great. 
 It was originally designed for android, but I rolled the dice and got lucky.  
Bought 3 of them since they were so cheap, it works with my iPhone and both 
appleTV4K’s.  The rodder option I select is direct touch, and follow focus, and 
they both work, I only use vertical navigation when I want to go 1 item at a 
time.  I would report this to apple accessibility, or maybe join beta users to 
report.  I actually have apublic beta group where we all discuss issues 
like this.  I don’t want to break any rules, so I won’t post the info here, but 
anyone who is running a public beta can email me for the info
kliph...@icloud.com 
BTW, my cafe is in northwest FL where I live.  Good luck

> On Mar 14, 2018, at 6:44 PM, Cara Quinn  wrote:
> 
> Hi Kliphton,
> 
> thanks very much. I sure appreciate the apology and the assistance too. :) 
> Hopefully I did not come off too strongly either. It’s not always easy to 
> gage tone in email.
> 
> Yeah, that must be really obnoxious when customers are kind of disregarding 
> the fact that you are a business and need to make some money so you can keep 
> that going. Serious kudos to you for being in the restaurant business! You 
> rock! :) where is your cafe?…
> 
> As for the keyboard, I have Apple BT keyboards (both the second and third 
> gen) I am currently using the third gen with the Apple TV.
> 
> After reading your earlier note, I did a Google search to see if I could find 
> anything out about this and I did find a tip on an Apple Vis forum about 
> switching the rotor to ‘Follow Focus’ so I tried switching the rotor to this 
> via the remote and I was able to get the arrow keys to work for the four 
> directions but only if the Voiceover keys were held down or locked.
> 
> Unfortunately, in this configuration, I cannot then use the enter key to 
> choose options on the Apple TV home screen without then needing to turn off 
> Voiceover.
> 
> What rotor option are you using?
> 
> this concerns me greatly, as a blind user should not need to press three keys 
> at a time (control option and an arrow) and need to use two hands vs one to 
> do what a sighted user can do with only one key press. I.E. If you turn off 
> Voiceover, all you need to do is simply press an arrow key and the cursor 
> moves there. When you get where you need to go, you simply press enter and 
> the action is done.
> 
> Why should a user with a disability need to be using two hands, pressing 
> multiple keys and then also need to toggle VO off simply to accomplish 
> navigation by way of the keyboard.
> 
> This is different from the Mac where Voiceover is meant to avoid key 
> conflicts. So in this case, this appears to just be arbitrary. -Especially 
> since keyboard navigation has worked so easily and simply for both sighted 
> and visually impaired customers alike until now.
> 
> Am I doing something wrong? This is supposed to be an easy, enjoyable and 
> streamlined experience. Yes?…
> 
> So are you saying that there is an option that is actually allowing the 
> arrows and enter key to work as they do with VO off?
> 
> Thanks Kliphton, any other suggestions you can offer would be fantastic!
> 
> Have an awesome evening!
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Cara
> 
> On Mar 14, 2018, at 3:19 PM, Kliphton Miller  wrote:
> 
> Hello, sorry about that statement of some people don’t like change.  I run my 
> own cafe, and those customers sometime get under my skin complaining about 
> price change, expecting everything to be free.  Anyway, I am using a Logitech 
> k811 BT keyboard, I don’t know if the model matter.  As for changing rodder 
> options, I do it with the Siri remote, not with keyboard.  But it still gets 
> the job done.  What keyboard are you trying to use?  Again, sorry for the 
> general statement, meant no disrespect.
> 
>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 11:06 AM, Cara Quinn  wrote:
>> 
>> Hey Kliphton,
>> 
>> Thanks for your note. I’m not sure if you’ve read the entire thread so far 
>> before posting this but I’ve actually tried changing the rotor settings via 
>> the keyboard and nothing seems to happen.
>> 
>> I’ve even tried using the remote to change the rotor while using the 
>> keyboard and the keyboard behavior does not change a bit.
>> 
>> So I would sure be happy if you can come back and explain exactly how you 
>> are making this work. You’d be helping make my life a whole lot easier, so I 
>> would really dig it! :)
>> 
>> thanks very much.
>> 
>> Now, as for the cliches about people, please chill out on it. Not just 
>> speaking for myself here, but pretty much everyone here on this list, just 
>> in the mere fact of being here says that there is a certain 

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Eileen Scrivani]

Hi Cara, 

Thank you very much. That is in deed a super nice offer. It’s amazing how 
learning a new device or new way of doing something can reduce a person to 
feeling extremely stupid! 

Talk soon.

Eileen

From: Cara Quinn 
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 6:47 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Hi Eileen, 

You should be able to find that setting under the Remotes and Devices option in 
the Settings menu.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Hope this helps and have a nice evening!

Cheers!

Cara


On Mar 13, 2018, at 1:52 PM, Eileen Scrivani <etscriv...@verizon.net> wrote:

Cara,

I don’t think I made change to the setting. Do you know what it is called & 
under what will I find it?

Thanks.

Eileen


From: Cara Quinn 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 2:21 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Hi Eileen, 

Yes, the situation with the cursor flying is one that many sighted people keep 
bringing up again and again in reviews. So trust me, this is not you at all! :) 
This is a shortcoming of the interface.

There is a way to change the sensitivity of the touch pad in Settings though. 
Have you tried that?

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

Cara


On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Eileen Scrivani <etscriv...@verizon.net> wrote:

Hi Kara,

I’m new to Apple TV having purchased 2 4K’s back in December. While I can get 
it to do some of the things I’d like, I’m less than thrilled with accessibility 
on them. The touch screen is a pain to deal with. I have learned that  swiping 
to fast or at least what the touch pad interprets as to fast sends the focus 
rapidly skipping over options. I’m not a large person with large hands so it 
has nothing to do with the size of my fingers – the screen is super tiny and I 
think the smallest motion sends it flying.

I also think the device is just not clear enough in annunciating sufficient 
information to assist a blind user in what needs to be done to operate it and 
get the expected results. I’m not using the devices to the extent I wanted to 
and feel a bit, just a bit, defeated in having bought them.

Perhaps those are only my issues being very new to using Apple TV. However, I 
have had problems just getting apps to download install and set-up.
For my taste, Voice Over doesn’t announce enough descriptive information as to 
what fields should be filled in. For instance it wants a password, well which 
one? If it would be clearer in stating if it is looking for my Apple ID 
password, or the password to something else I’ve signed up for and am now down 
loading and trying to install the app.
That would help enormously in filling in edit fields. The typing mechanism is 
for the birds on the Apple TV remote, at least I can use my IPhone for typing.

Eileen

From: Cara Quinn 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 12:23 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
4th Gen.

In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.

There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.

The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to leave 
the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.

I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both remotes 
work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th Gen with 
VO apparently.

secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad on 
the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many complaints 
from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go and read 
reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every single review 
is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. This is actually 
the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.

Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility team 
has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO on the 
Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.

Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
reg

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Cara Quinn]

Hi Eileen,

You should be able to find that setting under the Remotes and Devices option in 
the Settings menu.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Hope this helps and have a nice evening!

Cheers!

Cara

On Mar 13, 2018, at 1:52 PM, Eileen Scrivani <etscriv...@verizon.net> wrote:

Cara,
 
I don’t think I made change to the setting. Do you know what it is called & 
under what will I find it?
 
Thanks.
 
Eileen
 
 
From: Cara Quinn <>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 2:21 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries <>
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?
 
Hi Eileen,
 
Yes, the situation with the cursor flying is one that many sighted people keep 
bringing up again and again in reviews. So trust me, this is not you at all! :) 
This is a shortcoming of the interface.
 
There is a way to change the sensitivity of the touch pad in Settings though. 
Have you tried that?
 
Hope this helps.
 
Cheers!
 
Cara
 
On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Eileen Scrivani <etscriv...@verizon.net <>> wrote:
 
Hi Kara,
 
I’m new to Apple TV having purchased 2 4K’s back in December. While I can get 
it to do some of the things I’d like, I’m less than thrilled with accessibility 
on them. The touch screen is a pain to deal with. I have learned that  swiping 
to fast or at least what the touch pad interprets as to fast sends the focus 
rapidly skipping over options. I’m not a large person with large hands so it 
has nothing to do with the size of my fingers – the screen is super tiny and I 
think the smallest motion sends it flying.
 
I also think the device is just not clear enough in annunciating sufficient 
information to assist a blind user in what needs to be done to operate it and 
get the expected results. I’m not using the devices to the extent I wanted to 
and feel a bit, just a bit, defeated in having bought them.
 
Perhaps those are only my issues being very new to using Apple TV. However, I 
have had problems just getting apps to download install and set-up.
For my taste, Voice Over doesn’t announce enough descriptive information as to 
what fields should be filled in. For instance it wants a password, well which 
one? If it would be clearer in stating if it is looking for my Apple ID 
password, or the password to something else I’ve signed up for and am now down 
loading and trying to install the app.
That would help enormously in filling in edit fields. The typing mechanism is 
for the birds on the Apple TV remote, at least I can use my IPhone for typing.
 
Eileen
 
From: Cara Quinn <>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 12:23 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries <>
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?
 
Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
4th Gen.

In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.

There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.

The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to leave 
the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.

I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both remotes 
work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th Gen with 
VO apparently.

secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad on 
the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many complaints 
from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go and read 
reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every single review 
is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. This is actually 
the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.

Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility team 
has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO on the 
Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.

Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
regard. What I mean is this; in the past, when using a bt keyboard with an 
Apple TV, the arrows would move the cursor in their respective four directions 
on the screen. Now, if you turn on VO with a bt keyboard paired, the arrows do 
not work this way. The most obvious issue is that you cannot move straight down 

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Cara Quinn]

Hi Kliphton,

thanks very much. I sure appreciate the apology and the assistance too. :) 
Hopefully I did not come off too strongly either. It’s not always easy to gage 
tone in email.

Yeah, that must be really obnoxious when customers are kind of disregarding the 
fact that you are a business and need to make some money so you can keep that 
going. Serious kudos to you for being in the restaurant business! You rock! :) 
where is your cafe?…

As for the keyboard, I have Apple BT keyboards (both the second and third gen) 
I am currently using the third gen with the Apple TV.

After reading your earlier note, I did a Google search to see if I could find 
anything out about this and I did find a tip on an Apple Vis forum about 
switching the rotor to ‘Follow Focus’ so I tried switching the rotor to this 
via the remote and I was able to get the arrow keys to work for the four 
directions but only if the Voiceover keys were held down or locked.

Unfortunately, in this configuration, I cannot then use the enter key to choose 
options on the Apple TV home screen without then needing to turn off Voiceover.

What rotor option are you using?

this concerns me greatly, as a blind user should not need to press three keys 
at a time (control option and an arrow) and need to use two hands vs one to do 
what a sighted user can do with only one key press. I.E. If you turn off 
Voiceover, all you need to do is simply press an arrow key and the cursor moves 
there. When you get where you need to go, you simply press enter and the action 
is done.

Why should a user with a disability need to be using two hands, pressing 
multiple keys and then also need to toggle VO off simply to accomplish 
navigation by way of the keyboard.

This is different from the Mac where Voiceover is meant to avoid key conflicts. 
So in this case, this appears to just be arbitrary. -Especially since keyboard 
navigation has worked so easily and simply for both sighted and visually 
impaired customers alike until now.

Am I doing something wrong? This is supposed to be an easy, enjoyable and 
streamlined experience. Yes?…

So are you saying that there is an option that is actually allowing the arrows 
and enter key to work as they do with VO off?

Thanks Kliphton, any other suggestions you can offer would be fantastic!

Have an awesome evening!

Cheers!

Cara

On Mar 14, 2018, at 3:19 PM, Kliphton Miller  wrote:

Hello, sorry about that statement of some people don’t like change.  I run my 
own cafe, and those customers sometime get under my skin complaining about 
price change, expecting everything to be free.  Anyway, I am using a Logitech 
k811 BT keyboard, I don’t know if the model matter.  As for changing rodder 
options, I do it with the Siri remote, not with keyboard.  But it still gets 
the job done.  What keyboard are you trying to use?  Again, sorry for the 
general statement, meant no disrespect.

> On Mar 14, 2018, at 11:06 AM, Cara Quinn  wrote:
> 
> Hey Kliphton,
> 
> Thanks for your note. I’m not sure if you’ve read the entire thread so far 
> before posting this but I’ve actually tried changing the rotor settings via 
> the keyboard and nothing seems to happen.
> 
> I’ve even tried using the remote to change the rotor while using the keyboard 
> and the keyboard behavior does not change a bit.
> 
> So I would sure be happy if you can come back and explain exactly how you are 
> making this work. You’d be helping make my life a whole lot easier, so I 
> would really dig it! :)
> 
> thanks very much.
> 
> Now, as for the cliches about people, please chill out on it. Not just 
> speaking for myself here, but pretty much everyone here on this list, just in 
> the mere fact of being here says that there is a certain adventurous spirit 
> among folks here.
> 
> So saying that people dislike change is way too general and kind of a cop out 
> don’t you think?… :)
> 
> Many of us here are early adopters of a lot of technologies, as I am sure you 
> are also.
> 
> Anyway, we are all welcome to our opinions here and put simply, change 
> depending on why it happens is not necessarily always a good or smart thing. 
> Personally, having designed UI myself, advised large audiences of UX 
> designers on good UI and UX design, and also having the pleasure and 
> privilege of being able to work with absolute experts in the field, I have 
> some thoughts and opinions on this, which I will stand by. -For now at least. 
> :) If someone wants to show me I’ve made a mistake etc, then that’s cool too! 
> :) No worries, we all do it from time to time…
> 
> Anyway, thanks for your note, please please please let me know how you are 
> managing to get your BT keyboard arrow keys to work the way you are 
> mentioning. I will be very appreciative.
> 
> thanks bunches Kliphton, and have a great day!
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Cara
> 
> On Mar 14, 2018, at 5:51 AM, Kliphton Miller  wrote:
> 
> Few things 

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Kliphton Miller]

Hello, sorry about that statement of some people don’t like change.  I run my 
own cafe, and those customers sometime get under my skin complaining about 
price change, expecting everything to be free.  Anyway, I am using a Logitech 
k811 BT keyboard, I don’t know if the model matter.  As for changing rodder 
options, I do it with the Siri remote, not with keyboard.  But it still gets 
the job done.  What keyboard are you trying to use?  Again, sorry for the 
general statement, meant no disrespect.

> On Mar 14, 2018, at 11:06 AM, Cara Quinn  wrote:
> 
> Hey Kliphton,
> 
> Thanks for your note. I’m not sure if you’ve read the entire thread so far 
> before posting this but I’ve actually tried changing the rotor settings via 
> the keyboard and nothing seems to happen.
> 
> I’ve even tried using the remote to change the rotor while using the keyboard 
> and the keyboard behavior does not change a bit.
> 
> So I would sure be happy if you can come back and explain exactly how you are 
> making this work. You’d be helping make my life a whole lot easier, so I 
> would really dig it! :)
> 
> thanks very much.
> 
> Now, as for the cliches about people, please chill out on it. Not just 
> speaking for myself here, but pretty much everyone here on this list, just in 
> the mere fact of being here says that there is a certain adventurous spirit 
> among folks here.
> 
> So saying that people dislike change is way too general and kind of a cop out 
> don’t you think?… :)
> 
> Many of us here are early adopters of a lot of technologies, as I am sure you 
> are also.
> 
> Anyway, we are all welcome to our opinions here and put simply, change 
> depending on why it happens is not necessarily always a good or smart thing. 
> Personally, having designed UI myself, advised large audiences of UX 
> designers on good UI and UX design, and also having the pleasure and 
> privilege of being able to work with absolute experts in the field, I have 
> some thoughts and opinions on this, which I will stand by. -For now at least. 
> :) If someone wants to show me I’ve made a mistake etc, then that’s cool too! 
> :) No worries, we all do it from time to time…
> 
> Anyway, thanks for your note, please please please let me know how you are 
> managing to get your BT keyboard arrow keys to work the way you are 
> mentioning. I will be very appreciative.
> 
> thanks bunches Kliphton, and have a great day!
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Cara
> 
> On Mar 14, 2018, at 5:51 AM, Kliphton Miller  wrote:
> 
> Few things here.  The blu tooth keyboard for me works just fine, and I use 2 
> different ones.  The key is, making sure your router is set to direct touch, 
> then you can navigate any direction you want, even entering text.  And I have 
> been using the appleTV4 since it’s 1st release, now using a appleTV4K, and it 
> works fine with my bt keyboard also.  In regards to fast forwarding and 
> rewinding, I have no issue there either, this goes with trial and error 
> though.  Your router must be set to follow focus, and you will have no issues 
> performing fast forward or rewind.  As for the music app, I again make sure 
> the rotter is set to the corresponding setting, and things should work as 
> normal.  People don’t like change, and sometimes this keeps them from 
> exploring options because things are done differently, but exploring options 
> will grant you a pleasant surprise.
> JMO
>> On Mar 13, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Cara Quinn  wrote:
>> 
>> Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
>> 4th Gen.
>> 
>> In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
>> accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.
>> 
>> There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.
>> 
>> The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
>> disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
>> that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
>> triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to 
>> leave the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.
>> 
>> I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. 
>> I have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both 
>> remotes work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th 
>> Gen with VO apparently.
>> 
>> secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
>> absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
>> using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
>> this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad 
>> on the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many 
>> complaints from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go 
>> and read 

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Cara Quinn]

Hey Kliphton,

Thanks for your note. I’m not sure if you’ve read the entire thread so far 
before posting this but I’ve actually tried changing the rotor settings via the 
keyboard and nothing seems to happen.

I’ve even tried using the remote to change the rotor while using the keyboard 
and the keyboard behavior does not change a bit.

So I would sure be happy if you can come back and explain exactly how you are 
making this work. You’d be helping make my life a whole lot easier, so I would 
really dig it! :)

thanks very much.

Now, as for the cliches about people, please chill out on it. Not just speaking 
for myself here, but pretty much everyone here on this list, just in the mere 
fact of being here says that there is a certain adventurous spirit among folks 
here.

So saying that people dislike change is way too general and kind of a cop out 
don’t you think?… :)

Many of us here are early adopters of a lot of technologies, as I am sure you 
are also.

Anyway, we are all welcome to our opinions here and put simply, change 
depending on why it happens is not necessarily always a good or smart thing. 
Personally, having designed UI myself, advised large audiences of UX designers 
on good UI and UX design, and also having the pleasure and privilege of being 
able to work with absolute experts in the field, I have some thoughts and 
opinions on this, which I will stand by. -For now at least. :) If someone wants 
to show me I’ve made a mistake etc, then that’s cool too! :) No worries, we all 
do it from time to time…

Anyway, thanks for your note, please please please let me know how you are 
managing to get your BT keyboard arrow keys to work the way you are mentioning. 
I will be very appreciative.

thanks bunches Kliphton, and have a great day!

Cheers!

Cara

On Mar 14, 2018, at 5:51 AM, Kliphton Miller  wrote:

Few things here.  The blu tooth keyboard for me works just fine, and I use 2 
different ones.  The key is, making sure your router is set to direct touch, 
then you can navigate any direction you want, even entering text.  And I have 
been using the appleTV4 since it’s 1st release, now using a appleTV4K, and it 
works fine with my bt keyboard also.  In regards to fast forwarding and 
rewinding, I have no issue there either, this goes with trial and error though. 
 Your router must be set to follow focus, and you will have no issues 
performing fast forward or rewind.  As for the music app, I again make sure the 
rotter is set to the corresponding setting, and things should work as normal.  
People don’t like change, and sometimes this keeps them from exploring options 
because things are done differently, but exploring options will grant you a 
pleasant surprise.
JMO
> On Mar 13, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Cara Quinn  wrote:
> 
> Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
> 4th Gen.
> 
> In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
> accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.
> 
> There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.
> 
> The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
> disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
> that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
> triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to 
> leave the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.
> 
> I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
> have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both 
> remotes work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th 
> Gen with VO apparently.
> 
> secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
> absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
> using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
> this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad 
> on the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many 
> complaints from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go 
> and read reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every 
> single review is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. 
> This is actually the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.
> 
> Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
> suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility 
> team has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO 
> on the Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.
> 
> Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
> regard. What I mean is this; in the past, when using a bt keyboard with an 
> Apple TV, the arrows would move the cursor in their 

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Kliphton Miller]

Few things here.  The blu tooth keyboard for me works just fine, and I use 2 
different ones.  The key is, making sure your router is set to direct touch, 
then you can navigate any direction you want, even entering text.  And I have 
been using the appleTV4 since it’s 1st release, now using a appleTV4K, and it 
works fine with my bt keyboard also.  In regards to fast forwarding and 
rewinding, I have no issue there either, this goes with trial and error though. 
 Your router must be set to follow focus, and you will have no issues 
performing fast forward or rewind.  As for the music app, I again make sure the 
rotter is set to the corresponding setting, and things should work as normal.  
People don’t like change, and sometimes this keeps them from exploring options 
because things are done differently, but exploring options will grant you a 
pleasant surprise.
JMO
> On Mar 13, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Cara Quinn  wrote:
> 
> Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
> 4th Gen.
> 
> In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
> accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.
> 
> There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.
> 
> The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
> disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
> that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
> triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to 
> leave the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.
> 
> I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
> have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both 
> remotes work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th 
> Gen with VO apparently.
> 
> secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
> absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
> using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
> this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad 
> on the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many 
> complaints from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go 
> and read reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every 
> single review is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. 
> This is actually the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.
> 
> Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
> suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility 
> team has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO 
> on the Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.
> 
> Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
> regard. What I mean is this; in the past, when using a bt keyboard with an 
> Apple TV, the arrows would move the cursor in their respective four 
> directions on the screen. Now, if you turn on VO with a bt keyboard paired, 
> the arrows do not work this way. The most obvious issue is that you cannot 
> move straight down on the screen, you need to move left to right . This is a 
> huge problem in that it is not only more cumbersome to get where you need to 
> go, but there are actually some cases where you cannot get there at all using 
> the keyboard. You actually need to stop trying to navigate with the keyboard 
> and use the remote to move the cursor.
> 
> Now, if this were a design issue across the board for both sighted and blind 
> users, I would simply question Apple’s UX design choice. -However, this is 
> not across the board. This is purely an accessibility design issue. If you 
> turn off Voiceover, the bluetooth keyboard goes back to working as it always 
> has, with the arrow keys working normally.
> 
> If you then turn on Voiceover, the keyboard stops working as it should and 
> goes back to performing as I have been mentioning above.
> 
> So, instead of actually assisting blind users in having an easier and more 
> enjoyable experience with the Apple TV, now it is actually made worse and 
> more difficult in several situations.
> 
> I am curious to hear others’ experiences / opinions on these issues. Have you 
> seen them? What do you think?
> 
> Thanks so much and hope you have a great day!
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Cara
> ---
> iOS design and development - LookTel.com
> ---
> View my Online Portfolio at:
> 
> http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn
> 
> Follow me on Twitter!
> 
> https://twitter.com/ModelCara
> 
> On Mar 13, 2018, at 7:53 AM, Phil Halton  wrote:
> 
> I don’t understand how you can say that the accessibility with the fourth GEN 
> is fine when you don’t even own one. Am I wrong or did you say you have the 
> third GEN 

RE: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Simon Fogarty]

Well, I do own the 4K apple tv and ET has got it pretty good from my view,

Since the last update I'm not able to turn my tv on with the apple tv remote 

The controls after constant playing with the rota still don't work that well in 
3rd party apps such as a local tv companys streaming product, it use to 
workexcelantly another product I use called Emby is also playing up under IOS 
11 


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> On 
Behalf Of CHUCK REICHEL
Sent: Wednesday, 14 March 2018 4:13 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Hi ET!
Until you actually own a product you don't know what its really like.
I hear this all the time when engineers try too say what a Bill Bradley 
modified Neumann u87 microphone sounds like.
I use the Neumann u87  every day in my recording studio and  have first hand 
knowledge what the real story is! :) I can discern "Fake News" because i know 
the genuine!!!
As for "POTUS" respect the office and Pray for peace!
Talk soon
Chuck


"God does not play dice with the universe"
"Albert Einstein’


On Mar 13, 2018, at 10:53 AM, E.T. wrote:

> Phil,
>   Please do not add legitimacy to the clown in the big white house and 
> his "fake news". (smile)
> 
>   You do understand. I've not seen any serious complaints about the 4th gen's 
> accessibility except with regard to some third party apps. I would be happy 
> to relieve you of your 4th and you can go back to your 3rd.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited in the past. What if it were 
> true?
> 
> On 3/13/2018 6:53 AM, Phil Halton wrote:
>> I don’t understand how you can say that the accessibility with the fourth 
>> GEN is fine when you don’t even own one. Am I wrong or did you say you have 
>> the third GEN and then speculated about the fourth GEN saying it’s 
>> accessibility was  fine. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but this is the 
>> very definition of “fake news“. Actually, I just upgraded from the third GEN 
>> to the fourth GEN and I don’t find accessibility to be find at all. In fact, 
>> it’s kind of clunky in certain ways. No doubt the fourth GEN has its 
>> advantages especially with the Siri remote, but I kind of prefer the third 
>> GEN in certain areas. Oh well, I just had to chime in because you really 
>> blew my mind with that statement.
>> Sent from my IPhone
>>> On Mar 12, 2018, at 12:06 PM, E.T. <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>   I still have the 3rd generation so am limited to what apps are on it. I 
>>> can access all of my content that is in  the iTunes library very easily. 
>>> Sometimes I use other apps but with a 4th gen Apple TV I would likely use 
>>> even more of it. Accessibility is fine though some 3rd party apps may fall 
>>> short.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited in the past. What if it were 
>>> true?
>>> 
>>>> On 3/12/2018 8:07 AM, Nickus de Vos wrote:
>>>> Hi all
>>>> I’ve been thinking to get a Apple TV for a while and now a friend is 
>>>> selling his 4K HDR, a 64 GB one at a pretty good price.
>>>> I have no previous experience with Apple TV, so my question, what do you 
>>>> blind voiceover users use your Apple TV’s for?
>>>> Do you play games, do you listen to music, do you use video streaming 
>>>> services like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime?
>>>> Is apps like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime Video even accessible with 
>>>> Voiceover, those are the 3 apps I mainly stream video from.
>>>> Basically, will I get any joy from a Apple TV or will I only buy it for 
>>>> the rest of the family?
>>>> Nickus
>>> 
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach 
>>> mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can 
>>> reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> --- You rec

RE: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Simon Fogarty]

Hi ET,

Yes, I have some issues with 3rd gen apps and performance of the tv and vo with 
them.



-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> On 
Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Wednesday, 14 March 2018 3:54 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Phil,
Please do not add legitimacy to the clown in the big white house and his 
"fake news". (smile)

You do understand. I've not seen any serious complaints about the 4th gen's 
accessibility except with regard to some third party apps. I would be happy to 
relieve you of your 4th and you can go back to your 3rd.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 3/13/2018 6:53 AM, Phil Halton wrote:
> I don’t understand how you can say that the accessibility with the fourth GEN 
> is fine when you don’t even own one. Am I wrong or did you say you have the 
> third GEN and then speculated about the fourth GEN saying it’s accessibility 
> was  fine. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but this is the very 
> definition of “fake news“. Actually, I just upgraded from the third GEN to 
> the fourth GEN and I don’t find accessibility to be find at all. In fact, 
> it’s kind of clunky in certain ways. No doubt the fourth GEN has its 
> advantages especially with the Siri remote, but I kind of prefer the third 
> GEN in certain areas. Oh well, I just had to chime in because you really blew 
> my mind with that statement.
> 
> Sent from my IPhone
> 
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2018, at 12:06 PM, E.T. <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>>I still have the 3rd generation so am limited to what apps are on it. I 
>> can access all of my content that is in  the iTunes library very easily. 
>> Sometimes I use other apps but with a 4th gen Apple TV I would likely use 
>> even more of it. Accessibility is fine though some 3rd party apps may fall 
>> short.
>>
>>  From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited in the past. What if it were 
>> true?
>>
>>> On 3/12/2018 8:07 AM, Nickus de Vos wrote:
>>> Hi all
>>> I’ve been thinking to get a Apple TV for a while and now a friend is 
>>> selling his 4K HDR, a 64 GB one at a pretty good price.
>>> I have no previous experience with Apple TV, so my question, what do you 
>>> blind voiceover users use your Apple TV’s for?
>>> Do you play games, do you listen to music, do you use video streaming 
>>> services like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime?
>>> Is apps like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime Video even accessible with 
>>> Voiceover, those are the 3 apps I mainly stream video from.
>>> Basically, will I get any joy from a Apple TV or will I only buy it for the 
>>> rest of the family?
>>> Nickus
>>
>> --
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>>
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach 
>> mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach 
>> Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 

--
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Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
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RE: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Simon Fogarty]

I've had a forth gen and now have a 4K the next step up,

 Can't say  it's perfect as a device but hell accessibility isn't an issue.

 The performance with some apps is an issue 
But hell  I've got no issues in most cases 
I use my apple tv everyday.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> On 
Behalf Of Phil Halton
Sent: Wednesday, 14 March 2018 2:53 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

I don’t understand how you can say that the accessibility with the fourth GEN 
is fine when you don’t even own one. Am I wrong or did you say you have the 
third GEN and then speculated about the fourth GEN saying it’s accessibility 
was  fine. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but this is the very definition 
of “fake news“. Actually, I just upgraded from the third GEN to the fourth GEN 
and I don’t find accessibility to be find at all. In fact, it’s kind of clunky 
in certain ways. No doubt the fourth GEN has its advantages especially with the 
Siri remote, but I kind of prefer the third GEN in certain areas. Oh well, I 
just had to chime in because you really blew my mind with that statement.

Sent from my IPhone


> On Mar 12, 2018, at 12:06 PM, E.T. <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:
> 
>   I still have the 3rd generation so am limited to what apps are on it. I can 
> access all of my content that is in  the iTunes library very easily. 
> Sometimes I use other apps but with a 4th gen Apple TV I would likely use 
> even more of it. Accessibility is fine though some 3rd party apps may fall 
> short.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited in the past. What if it were 
> true?
> 
>> On 3/12/2018 8:07 AM, Nickus de Vos wrote:
>> Hi all
>> I’ve been thinking to get a Apple TV for a while and now a friend is selling 
>> his 4K HDR, a 64 GB one at a pretty good price.
>> I have no previous experience with Apple TV, so my question, what do you 
>> blind voiceover users use your Apple TV’s for?
>> Do you play games, do you listen to music, do you use video streaming 
>> services like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime?
>> Is apps like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime Video even accessible with 
>> Voiceover, those are the 3 apps I mainly stream video from.
>> Basically, will I get any joy from a Apple TV or will I only buy it for the 
>> rest of the family?
>> Nickus
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach 
> mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach 
> Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
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> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
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Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

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feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the

RE: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[M. Taylor]

Hello,

Well, since everyone is chiming in on this, I’ll add my proverbial two cents.  

Frankly, I do not like the Siri remote.  I find it extremely fatiguing on my 
fingers—especially the touch pad area.

A couple of years ago, I unpaired my Apple Third Generation remote from my 4th 
gen.  I have never ceased to regret it.  I keep saying I’m going to pair it 
back, again but …

Anyway, I have come to use Siri voice controls more and more as using the 
physical touch pad frustrates me to know end.

Mark


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Cara Quinn
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 11:39 AM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Nickus,

Yes, I have used Apple TVs (from 2nd to 4th gen) for years now so I am used to 
them. I actually think the accessibility has been very good on them until TVOS 
11. I wish I never upgraded.

The issues with the remote have always been there for the Siri remote but the 
software / keyboard issues that I was mentioning are just in TVOS 11.X.

I wish I had something better to say about it but I don’t! :)

However, having said all this, I still use (or fight with) my Apple TV 4th gen 
every day. If you’ve never had one before, I still do think you will like 
having it. I do not know of any other set-top box which is more accessible, 
even given the shortcomings we’ve been talking about.

So enjoy! :)

Cheers!

Cara

On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:23 AM, Nickus de Vos <bigboy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Cara, thanks for your detailed reply, it seams you have extensive experience 
using the Apple TV, all of it unfortunately not smooth saling it seams.

I guess in this case we as a community should pressure Apple more to get 
Voiceover support jacked up on the Apple TV. I guess since TV OS is quite new 
they can be somewhat excused, plus I’m sure they didn’t quite invission that 
blind people will use Apple TV so extensively.

Sounds to me that TV OS is currently where Mac OS was just a couple of years 
ago, with some major flaws in some areas when it comes to Voiceover.

Nickus
> On 13 Mar 2018, at 18:23, Cara Quinn <caraqu...@caraquinn.com> wrote:
> 
> Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
> 4th Gen.
> 
> In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
> accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.
> 
> There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.
> 
> The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
> disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
> that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
> triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to 
> leave the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.
> 
> I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
> have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both 
> remotes work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th 
> Gen with VO apparently.
> 
> secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
> absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
> using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
> this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad 
> on the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many 
> complaints from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go 
> and read reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every 
> single review is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. 
> This is actually the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.
> 
> Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
> suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility 
> team has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO 
> on the Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.
> 
> Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
> regard. What I mean is this; in the past, when using a bt keyboard with an 
> Apple TV, the arrows would move the cursor in their respective four 
> directions on the screen. Now, if you turn on VO with a bt keyboard paired, 
> the arrows do not work this way. The most obvious issue is that you cannot 
> move straight down on the screen, you need to move left to right . This is a 
> huge problem in that it is not only more cumbersome to get where you need to 
> go, but there are actually some cases where you cannot get there at all using 
> the keyboard. You actually

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Eileen Scrivani]

Cara,

I don’t think I made change to the setting. Do you know what it is called & 
under what will I find it?

Thanks.

Eileen


From: Cara Quinn 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 2:21 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Hi Eileen, 

Yes, the situation with the cursor flying is one that many sighted people keep 
bringing up again and again in reviews. So trust me, this is not you at all! :) 
This is a shortcoming of the interface.

There is a way to change the sensitivity of the touch pad in Settings though. 
Have you tried that?

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

Cara


On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Eileen Scrivani <etscriv...@verizon.net> wrote:

Hi Kara,

I’m new to Apple TV having purchased 2 4K’s back in December. While I can get 
it to do some of the things I’d like, I’m less than thrilled with accessibility 
on them. The touch screen is a pain to deal with. I have learned that  swiping 
to fast or at least what the touch pad interprets as to fast sends the focus 
rapidly skipping over options. I’m not a large person with large hands so it 
has nothing to do with the size of my fingers – the screen is super tiny and I 
think the smallest motion sends it flying.

I also think the device is just not clear enough in annunciating sufficient 
information to assist a blind user in what needs to be done to operate it and 
get the expected results. I’m not using the devices to the extent I wanted to 
and feel a bit, just a bit, defeated in having bought them.

Perhaps those are only my issues being very new to using Apple TV. However, I 
have had problems just getting apps to download install and set-up.
For my taste, Voice Over doesn’t announce enough descriptive information as to 
what fields should be filled in. For instance it wants a password, well which 
one? If it would be clearer in stating if it is looking for my Apple ID 
password, or the password to something else I’ve signed up for and am now down 
loading and trying to install the app.
That would help enormously in filling in edit fields. The typing mechanism is 
for the birds on the Apple TV remote, at least I can use my IPhone for typing.

Eileen

From: Cara Quinn 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 12:23 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
4th Gen.

In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.

There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.

The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to leave 
the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.

I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both remotes 
work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th Gen with 
VO apparently.

secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad on 
the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many complaints 
from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go and read 
reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every single review 
is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. This is actually 
the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.

Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility team 
has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO on the 
Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.

Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
regard. What I mean is this; in the past, when using a bt keyboard with an 
Apple TV, the arrows would move the cursor in their respective four directions 
on the screen. Now, if you turn on VO with a bt keyboard paired, the arrows do 
not work this way. The most obvious issue is that you cannot move straight down 
on the screen, you need to move left to right . This is a huge problem in that 
it is not only more cumbersome to get where you need to go, but there are 
actually some cases where you cannot get there at all using the keyboard. You 
actually need to stop trying to navigate with the keyboard and use the remote 
to move the cursor.

Now, if this were a de

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Cara Quinn]

Nickus,

Yes, I have used Apple TVs (from 2nd to 4th gen) for years now so I am used to 
them. I actually think the accessibility has been very good on them until TVOS 
11. I wish I never upgraded.

The issues with the remote have always been there for the Siri remote but the 
software / keyboard issues that I was mentioning are just in TVOS 11.X.

I wish I had something better to say about it but I don’t! :)

However, having said all this, I still use (or fight with) my Apple TV 4th gen 
every day. If you’ve never had one before, I still do think you will like 
having it. I do not know of any other set-top box which is more accessible, 
even given the shortcomings we’ve been talking about.

So enjoy! :)

Cheers!

Cara

On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:23 AM, Nickus de Vos  wrote:

Cara, thanks for your detailed reply, it seams you have extensive experience 
using the Apple TV, all of it unfortunately not smooth saling it seams.

I guess in this case we as a community should pressure Apple more to get 
Voiceover support jacked up on the Apple TV. I guess since TV OS is quite new 
they can be somewhat excused, plus I’m sure they didn’t quite invission that 
blind people will use Apple TV so extensively.

Sounds to me that TV OS is currently where Mac OS was just a couple of years 
ago, with some major flaws in some areas when it comes to Voiceover.

Nickus
> On 13 Mar 2018, at 18:23, Cara Quinn  wrote:
> 
> Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
> 4th Gen.
> 
> In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
> accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.
> 
> There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.
> 
> The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
> disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
> that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
> triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to 
> leave the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.
> 
> I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
> have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both 
> remotes work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th 
> Gen with VO apparently.
> 
> secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
> absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
> using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
> this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad 
> on the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many 
> complaints from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go 
> and read reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every 
> single review is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. 
> This is actually the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.
> 
> Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
> suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility 
> team has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO 
> on the Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.
> 
> Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
> regard. What I mean is this; in the past, when using a bt keyboard with an 
> Apple TV, the arrows would move the cursor in their respective four 
> directions on the screen. Now, if you turn on VO with a bt keyboard paired, 
> the arrows do not work this way. The most obvious issue is that you cannot 
> move straight down on the screen, you need to move left to right . This is a 
> huge problem in that it is not only more cumbersome to get where you need to 
> go, but there are actually some cases where you cannot get there at all using 
> the keyboard. You actually need to stop trying to navigate with the keyboard 
> and use the remote to move the cursor.
> 
> Now, if this were a design issue across the board for both sighted and blind 
> users, I would simply question Apple’s UX design choice. -However, this is 
> not across the board. This is purely an accessibility design issue. If you 
> turn off Voiceover, the bluetooth keyboard goes back to working as it always 
> has, with the arrow keys working normally.
> 
> If you then turn on Voiceover, the keyboard stops working as it should and 
> goes back to performing as I have been mentioning above.
> 
> So, instead of actually assisting blind users in having an easier and more 
> enjoyable experience with the Apple TV, now it is actually made worse and 
> more difficult in several situations.
> 
> I am curious to hear others’ experiences / opinions on these issues. Have you 
> seen them? What do you think?
> 
> Thanks so 

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Cara Quinn]

Hi Tim,

In regard to the keyboard, I cannot even access the rotor. How are you doing it?

If I try to toggle quick nav on or off, nothing happens at all. So I have no 
rotor access from the keyboard.

How are you making this work?

Thanks bunches!

Cara

---
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---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:37 AM, Tim Kilburn <kilbu...@me.com> wrote:

Hi,

A couple of items to bring forward here with respect to the Siri Remote and the 
Bluetooth keyboard operation.  First, for both devices, it is important to 
consider the rotor control.  When the rotor is set to certain items, navigation 
by both the remote and the Bluetooth keyboard is sometimes less than intuitive. 
 What I've found is that it is often advisable to change the rotor to a 
different item such as "Words", "Navigation" or "Explore".  Also, consider that 
Direct Touch can really make things difficult if you're not accustomed to it 
and will make things skip around if you're not careful.  Second, there are a 
few gestures such as swiping up with two fingers to repeat hits that you may 
find useful.  Yes, the touch-screen is rather small, but practice usually makes 
your life easier.

Later...


Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:17, Eileen Scrivani <etscriv...@verizon.net 
<mailto:etscriv...@verizon.net>> wrote:

Hi Kara,
 
I’m new to Apple TV having purchased 2 4K’s back in December. While I can get 
it to do some of the things I’d like, I’m less than thrilled with accessibility 
on them. The touch screen is a pain to deal with. I have learned that  swiping 
to fast or at least what the touch pad interprets as to fast sends the focus 
rapidly skipping over options. I’m not a large person with large hands so it 
has nothing to do with the size of my fingers – the screen is super tiny and I 
think the smallest motion sends it flying.
 
I also think the device is just not clear enough in annunciating sufficient 
information to assist a blind user in what needs to be done to operate it and 
get the expected results. I’m not using the devices to the extent I wanted to 
and feel a bit, just a bit, defeated in having bought them.
 
Perhaps those are only my issues being very new to using Apple TV. However, I 
have had problems just getting apps to download install and set-up.
For my taste, Voice Over doesn’t announce enough descriptive information as to 
what fields should be filled in. For instance it wants a password, well which 
one? If it would be clearer in stating if it is looking for my Apple ID 
password, or the password to something else I’ve signed up for and am now down 
loading and trying to install the app.
That would help enormously in filling in edit fields. The typing mechanism is 
for the birds on the Apple TV remote, at least I can use my IPhone for typing.
 
Eileen
 
From: Cara Quinn <>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 12:23 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries <>
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?
 
Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
4th Gen.

In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.

There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.

The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to leave 
the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.

I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both remotes 
work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th Gen with 
VO apparently.

secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad on 
the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many complaints 
from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go and read 
reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every single review 
is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. This is actually 
the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.

Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility team 
has tried to make the experie

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Cara Quinn]

Hi Eileen,

Yes, the situation with the cursor flying is one that many sighted people keep 
bringing up again and again in reviews. So trust me, this is not you at all! :) 
This is a shortcoming of the interface.

There is a way to change the sensitivity of the touch pad in Settings though. 
Have you tried that?

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

Cara

On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Eileen Scrivani <etscriv...@verizon.net> wrote:

Hi Kara,
 
I’m new to Apple TV having purchased 2 4K’s back in December. While I can get 
it to do some of the things I’d like, I’m less than thrilled with accessibility 
on them. The touch screen is a pain to deal with. I have learned that  swiping 
to fast or at least what the touch pad interprets as to fast sends the focus 
rapidly skipping over options. I’m not a large person with large hands so it 
has nothing to do with the size of my fingers – the screen is super tiny and I 
think the smallest motion sends it flying.
 
I also think the device is just not clear enough in annunciating sufficient 
information to assist a blind user in what needs to be done to operate it and 
get the expected results. I’m not using the devices to the extent I wanted to 
and feel a bit, just a bit, defeated in having bought them.
 
Perhaps those are only my issues being very new to using Apple TV. However, I 
have had problems just getting apps to download install and set-up.
For my taste, Voice Over doesn’t announce enough descriptive information as to 
what fields should be filled in. For instance it wants a password, well which 
one? If it would be clearer in stating if it is looking for my Apple ID 
password, or the password to something else I’ve signed up for and am now down 
loading and trying to install the app.
That would help enormously in filling in edit fields. The typing mechanism is 
for the birds on the Apple TV remote, at least I can use my IPhone for typing.
 
Eileen
 
From: Cara Quinn <>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 12:23 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries <>
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?
 
Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
4th Gen.

In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.

There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.

The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to leave 
the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.

I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both remotes 
work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th Gen with 
VO apparently.

secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad on 
the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many complaints 
from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go and read 
reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every single review 
is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. This is actually 
the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.

Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility team 
has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO on the 
Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.

Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
regard. What I mean is this; in the past, when using a bt keyboard with an 
Apple TV, the arrows would move the cursor in their respective four directions 
on the screen. Now, if you turn on VO with a bt keyboard paired, the arrows do 
not work this way. The most obvious issue is that you cannot move straight down 
on the screen, you need to move left to right . This is a huge problem in that 
it is not only more cumbersome to get where you need to go, but there are 
actually some cases where you cannot get there at all using the keyboard. You 
actually need to stop trying to navigate with the keyboard and use the remote 
to move the cursor.

Now, if this were a design issue across the board for both sighted and blind 
users, I would simply question Apple’s UX design choice. -However, this is not 
across the board. This is purely an accessibility design issue. If you turn off 
Voiceover, the bluetooth keyboard goes back to wo

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi,

Yeah, I've noticed that with Amazon Prime too.  It does make it challenging to 
navigate that app.

Later...

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:44, Eileen Scrivani <etscriv...@verizon.net> wrote:

Tim,
 
Thank you. I’ll try using 2 fingers and see what the results/difference is. 
Funny you mention direct touch since every time I use the Amazon Prime app it 
tells me that it “requires” direct touch in order to work.
 
Eileen
 
From: Tim Kilburn <>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 1:37 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <>
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?
 
Hi,
 
A couple of items to bring forward here with respect to the Siri Remote and the 
Bluetooth keyboard operation.  First, for both devices, it is important to 
consider the rotor control.  When the rotor is set to certain items, navigation 
by both the remote and the Bluetooth keyboard is sometimes less than intuitive. 
 What I've found is that it is often advisable to change the rotor to a 
different item such as "Words", "Navigation" or "Explore".  Also, consider that 
Direct Touch can really make things difficult if you're not accustomed to it 
and will make things skip around if you're not careful.  Second, there are a 
few gestures such as swiping up with two fingers to repeat hits that you may 
find useful.  Yes, the touch-screen is rather small, but practice usually makes 
your life easier.
 
Later...
 
 
Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:17, Eileen Scrivani <etscriv...@verizon.net <>> wrote:
 
Hi Kara,
 
I’m new to Apple TV having purchased 2 4K’s back in December. While I can get 
it to do some of the things I’d like, I’m less than thrilled with accessibility 
on them. The touch screen is a pain to deal with. I have learned that  swiping 
to fast or at least what the touch pad interprets as to fast sends the focus 
rapidly skipping over options. I’m not a large person with large hands so it 
has nothing to do with the size of my fingers – the screen is super tiny and I 
think the smallest motion sends it flying.
 
I also think the device is just not clear enough in annunciating sufficient 
information to assist a blind user in what needs to be done to operate it and  
get the expected results. I’m not using the devices to the extent I wanted to 
and feel a bit, just a bit, defeated in having bought them.
 
Perhaps those are only my issues being very new to using Apple TV. However, I 
have had problems just getting apps to download install and set-up.
For my taste, Voice Over doesn’t announce enough descriptive information as to 
what fields should be filled in. For instance it wants a password, well which 
one? If it would be clearer in stating if it is looking for my Apple ID 
password, or the password to something else I’ve signed up for and am now down 
loading and trying to install the app.
That would help enormously in filling in edit fields. The typing mechanism is 
for the birds on the Apple TV remote, at least I can use my IPhone for typing.
 
Eileen
 
From: Cara Quinn <>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 12:23 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries <>
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?
 
Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
4th Gen.

In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.

There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.

The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to leave 
the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.

I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both remotes 
work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th Gen with 
VO apparently.

secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad on 
the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many complaints 
from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go and read 
reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every single review 
is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. This is actually 
the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.

Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Eileen Scrivani]

Tim,

Thank you. I’ll try using 2 fingers and see what the results/difference is. 
Funny you mention direct touch since every time I use the Amazon Prime app it 
tells me that it “requires” direct touch in order to work. 

Eileen

From: Tim Kilburn 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 1:37 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Hi, 

A couple of items to bring forward here with respect to the Siri Remote and the 
Bluetooth keyboard operation.  First, for both devices, it is important to 
consider the rotor control.  When the rotor is set to certain items, navigation 
by both the remote and the Bluetooth keyboard is sometimes less than intuitive. 
 What I've found is that it is often advisable to change the rotor to a 
different item such as "Words", "Navigation" or "Explore".  Also, consider that 
Direct Touch can really make things difficult if you're not accustomed to it 
and will make things skip around if you're not careful.  Second, there are a 
few gestures such as swiping up with two fingers to repeat hits that you may 
find useful.  Yes, the touch-screen is rather small, but practice usually makes 
your life easier.

Later...


Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada 

On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:17, Eileen Scrivani <etscriv...@verizon.net> wrote:

Hi Kara,

I’m new to Apple TV having purchased 2 4K’s back in December. While I can get 
it to do some of the things I’d like, I’m less than thrilled with accessibility 
on them. The touch screen is a pain to deal with. I have learned that  swiping 
to fast or at least what the touch pad interprets as to fast sends the focus 
rapidly skipping over options. I’m not a large person with large hands so it 
has nothing to do with the size of my fingers – the screen is super tiny and I 
think the smallest motion sends it flying.

I also think the device is just not clear enough in annunciating sufficient 
information to assist a blind user in what needs to be done to operate it and 
get the expected results. I’m not using the devices to the extent I wanted to 
and feel a bit, just a bit, defeated in having bought them.

Perhaps those are only my issues being very new to using Apple TV. However, I 
have had problems just getting apps to download install and set-up.
For my taste, Voice Over doesn’t announce enough descriptive information as to 
what fields should be filled in. For instance it wants a password, well which 
one? If it would be clearer in stating if it is looking for my Apple ID 
password, or the password to something else I’ve signed up for and am now down 
loading and trying to install the app.
That would help enormously in filling in edit fields. The typing mechanism is 
for the birds on the Apple TV remote, at least I can use my IPhone for typing.

Eileen

From: Cara Quinn 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 12:23 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
4th Gen.

In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.

There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.

The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to leave 
the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.

I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both remotes 
work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th Gen with 
VO apparently.

secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad on 
the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many complaints 
from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go and read 
reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every single review 
is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. This is actually 
the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.

Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility team 
has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO on the 
Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.

Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
regard. What I mean is this; i

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi,

A couple of items to bring forward here with respect to the Siri Remote and the 
Bluetooth keyboard operation.  First, for both devices, it is important to 
consider the rotor control.  When the rotor is set to certain items, navigation 
by both the remote and the Bluetooth keyboard is sometimes less than intuitive. 
 What I've found is that it is often advisable to change the rotor to a 
different item such as "Words", "Navigation" or "Explore".  Also, consider that 
Direct Touch can really make things difficult if you're not accustomed to it 
and will make things skip around if you're not careful.  Second, there are a 
few gestures such as swiping up with two fingers to repeat hits that you may 
find useful.  Yes, the touch-screen is rather small, but practice usually makes 
your life easier.

Later...


Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:17, Eileen Scrivani <etscriv...@verizon.net> wrote:

Hi Kara,
 
I’m new to Apple TV having purchased 2 4K’s back in December. While I can get 
it to do some of the things I’d like, I’m less than thrilled with accessibility 
on them. The touch screen is a pain to deal with. I have learned that  swiping 
to fast or at least what the touch pad interprets as to fast sends the focus 
rapidly skipping over options. I’m not a large person with large hands so it 
has nothing to do with the size of my fingers – the screen is super tiny and I 
think the smallest motion sends it flying.
 
I also think the device is just not clear enough in annunciating sufficient 
information to assist a blind user in what needs to be done to operate it and  
get the expected results. I’m not using the devices to the extent I wanted to 
and feel a bit, just a bit, defeated in having bought them.
 
Perhaps those are only my issues being very new to using Apple TV. However, I 
have had problems just getting apps to download install and set-up.
For my taste, Voice Over doesn’t announce enough descriptive information as to 
what fields should be filled in. For instance it wants a password, well which 
one? If it would be clearer in stating if it is looking for my Apple ID 
password, or the password to something else I’ve signed up for and am now down 
loading and trying to install the app.
That would help enormously in filling in edit fields. The typing mechanism is 
for the birds on the Apple TV remote, at least I can use my IPhone for typing.
 
Eileen
 
From: Cara Quinn <>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 12:23 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries <>
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?
 
Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
4th Gen.

In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.

There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.

The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to leave 
the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.

I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both remotes 
work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th Gen with 
VO apparently.

secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad on 
the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many complaints 
from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go and read 
reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every single review 
is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. This is actually 
the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.

Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility team 
has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO on the 
Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.

Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
regard. What I mean is this; in the past, when using a bt keyboard with an 
Apple TV, the arrows would move the cursor in their respective four directions 
on the screen. Now, if you turn on VO with a bt keyboard paired, the arrows do 
not work this way. The most obvious issue is that you cannot move straight down 
on the screen, you need to move left to right . This is a huge problem in that 

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[E.T.]

Jonathan,
   That cracked me up. I like that kind of accessibility.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 3/13/2018 8:41 AM, Jonathan Cohn wrote:

I find accessibility on my fourth generation Apple TV to be fantastic. I say I 
want to watch season one of SVU and my wife hits a few buttons and it starts 
playing, and sometimes there is even Audio Description.

In all honesty, I have managed the Apple TV a few times myself the hardest part 
has always been changing the inputs on my stupid TV that does not pay attention 
to the HTMI signal to turn on like Samsung TV’s do. The touch pad is a little 
confusing, but I generally don’t need to use that and the applications that 
integrate with the “TV” app make watching series from those providers very 
easy. I can hit the “home/tv” button once to bring up the TV app, and then can 
find that series and click play.

Almost all of the NetFlick original content is Audio Described and that has 
been a great boon.
Best Wishes,

Jonathan



--
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Nickus de Vos]

Cara, thanks for your detailed reply, it seams you have extensive experience 
using the Apple TV, all of it unfortunately not smooth saling it seams.

I guess in this case we as a community should pressure Apple more to get 
Voiceover support jacked up on the Apple TV. I guess since TV OS is quite new 
they can be somewhat excused, plus I’m sure they didn’t quite invission that 
blind people will use Apple TV so extensively.

Sounds to me that TV OS is currently where Mac OS was just a couple of years 
ago, with some major flaws in some areas when it comes to Voiceover.

Nickus
> On 13 Mar 2018, at 18:23, Cara Quinn  wrote:
> 
> Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
> 4th Gen.
> 
> In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
> accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.
> 
> There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.
> 
> The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
> disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
> that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
> triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to 
> leave the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.
> 
> I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
> have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both 
> remotes work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th 
> Gen with VO apparently.
> 
> secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
> absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
> using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
> this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad 
> on the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many 
> complaints from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go 
> and read reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every 
> single review is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. 
> This is actually the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.
> 
> Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
> suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility 
> team has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO 
> on the Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.
> 
> Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
> regard. What I mean is this; in the past, when using a bt keyboard with an 
> Apple TV, the arrows would move the cursor in their respective four 
> directions on the screen. Now, if you turn on VO with a bt keyboard paired, 
> the arrows do not work this way. The most obvious issue is that you cannot 
> move straight down on the screen, you need to move left to right . This is a 
> huge problem in that it is not only more cumbersome to get where you need to 
> go, but there are actually some cases where you cannot get there at all using 
> the keyboard. You actually need to stop trying to navigate with the keyboard 
> and use the remote to move the cursor.
> 
> Now, if this were a design issue across the board for both sighted and blind 
> users, I would simply question Apple’s UX design choice. -However, this is 
> not across the board. This is purely an accessibility design issue. If you 
> turn off Voiceover, the bluetooth keyboard goes back to working as it always 
> has, with the arrow keys working normally.
> 
> If you then turn on Voiceover, the keyboard stops working as it should and 
> goes back to performing as I have been mentioning above.
> 
> So, instead of actually assisting blind users in having an easier and more 
> enjoyable experience with the Apple TV, now it is actually made worse and 
> more difficult in several situations.
> 
> I am curious to hear others’ experiences / opinions on these issues. Have you 
> seen them? What do you think?
> 
> Thanks so much and hope you have a great day!
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Cara
> ---
> iOS design and development - LookTel.com
> ---
> View my Online Portfolio at:
> 
> http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn
> 
> Follow me on Twitter!
> 
> https://twitter.com/ModelCara
> 
> On Mar 13, 2018, at 7:53 AM, Phil Halton  wrote:
> 
> I don’t understand how you can say that the accessibility with the fourth GEN 
> is fine when you don’t even own one. Am I wrong or did you say you have the 
> third GEN and then speculated about the fourth GEN saying it’s accessibility 
> was  fine. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but this is the very 
> definition of “fake news“. Actually, I just upgraded from the third GEN to 
> the fourth GEN and I don’t find accessibility to be find at all. In fact, 
> 

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Eileen Scrivani]

Hi Kara,

I’m new to Apple TV having purchased 2 4K’s back in December. While I can get 
it to do some of the things I’d like, I’m less than thrilled with accessibility 
on them. The touch screen is a pain to deal with. I have learned that  swiping 
to fast or at least what the touch pad interprets as to fast sends the focus 
rapidly skipping over options. I’m not a large person with large hands so it 
has nothing to do with the size of my fingers – the screen is super tiny and I 
think the smallest motion sends it flying.

I also think the device is just not clear enough in annunciating sufficient 
information to assist a blind user in what needs to be done to operate it and 
get the expected results. I’m not using the devices to the extent I wanted to 
and feel a bit, just a bit, defeated in having bought them.

Perhaps those are only my issues being very new to using Apple TV. However, I 
have had problems just getting apps to download install and set-up.
For my taste, Voice Over doesn’t announce enough descriptive information as to 
what fields should be filled in. For instance it wants a password, well which 
one? If it would be clearer in stating if it is looking for my Apple ID 
password, or the password to something else I’ve signed up for and am now down 
loading and trying to install the app.
That would help enormously in filling in edit fields. The typing mechanism is 
for the birds on the Apple TV remote, at least I can use my IPhone for typing.

Eileen

From: Cara Quinn 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 12:23 PM
To: 'Adrian Leong' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
4th Gen.

In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.

There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.

The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to leave 
the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.

I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both remotes 
work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th Gen with 
VO apparently.

secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad on 
the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many complaints 
from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go and read 
reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every single review 
is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. This is actually 
the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.

Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility team 
has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO on the 
Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.

Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
regard. What I mean is this; in the past, when using a bt keyboard with an 
Apple TV, the arrows would move the cursor in their respective four directions 
on the screen. Now, if you turn on VO with a bt keyboard paired, the arrows do 
not work this way. The most obvious issue is that you cannot move straight down 
on the screen, you need to move left to right . This is a huge problem in that 
it is not only more cumbersome to get where you need to go, but there are 
actually some cases where you cannot get there at all using the keyboard. You 
actually need to stop trying to navigate with the keyboard and use the remote 
to move the cursor.

Now, if this were a design issue across the board for both sighted and blind 
users, I would simply question Apple’s UX design choice. -However, this is not 
across the board. This is purely an accessibility design issue. If you turn off 
Voiceover, the bluetooth keyboard goes back to working as it always has, with 
the arrow keys working normally.

If you then turn on Voiceover, the keyboard stops working as it should and goes 
back to performing as I have been mentioning above.

So, instead of actually assisting blind users in having an easier and more 
enjoyable experience with the Apple TV, now it is actually made worse and more 
difficult in several situations.

I am curious to hear others’ experiences / opinions on these issues

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Cara Quinn]

Phil, I completely agree with you in regard to accessibility on the Apple TV 
4th Gen.

In terms of day-to-day enjoyment and ease of use, in my opinion, the 
accessibility on the 4th Gen has gone way way way down.

There are three main areas where I find this to be true most.

The first is in the squirreliness of the use of the menu button to enable / 
disable VO in certain circumstances such as when in Music. I.E. I will find 
that on more than one occasion, VO will either not turn on with the usual 
triple press of the menu button, or once VO is on, I will not be able to leave 
the Now Playing screen in Music to go back to the Apple TV Home screen.

I have seen this issue in other Apple apps as well, but it is intermittent. I 
have more than one Siri remote so I have also checked to see that both remotes 
work properly and they do. So this is an issue with the Apple TV 4th Gen with 
VO apparently.

secondly, Rewinding or fast forwarding when watching video content can be 
absolutely excruciatingly tedious depending on which video apps you might be 
using. Hulu in particular can be utterly horrible for this. Yes, I know that 
this is a third party situation, but this reflects how poorly the touch pad on 
the Siri remote behaves both with and without VO. I have had many complaints 
from sighted folks on this as well. -And furthermore, if you go and read 
reviews on the Siri remote on the Apple Store app, almost every single review 
is incredibly negative. -And I personally couldn’t agree more. This is actually 
the worst Apple interface I have ever used by far.

Lastly, (and this is the major one for me) the bluetooth keyboard support has 
suffered utterly when using Voiceover. I.e. apparently, the accessibility team 
has tried to make the experience of using a bluetooth keyboard with VO on the 
Apple TV, behave more like that of using VO on a Mac.

Unfortunately, in this case, this has severely crippled accessibility in this 
regard. What I mean is this; in the past, when using a bt keyboard with an 
Apple TV, the arrows would move the cursor in their respective four directions 
on the screen. Now, if you turn on VO with a bt keyboard paired, the arrows do 
not work this way. The most obvious issue is that you cannot move straight down 
on the screen, you need to move left to right . This is a huge problem in that 
it is not only more cumbersome to get where you need to go, but there are 
actually some cases where you cannot get there at all using the keyboard. You 
actually need to stop trying to navigate with the keyboard and use the remote 
to move the cursor.

Now, if this were a design issue across the board for both sighted and blind 
users, I would simply question Apple’s UX design choice. -However, this is not 
across the board. This is purely an accessibility design issue. If you turn off 
Voiceover, the bluetooth keyboard goes back to working as it always has, with 
the arrow keys working normally.

If you then turn on Voiceover, the keyboard stops working as it should and goes 
back to performing as I have been mentioning above.

So, instead of actually assisting blind users in having an easier and more 
enjoyable experience with the Apple TV, now it is actually made worse and more 
difficult in several situations.

I am curious to hear others’ experiences / opinions on these issues. Have you 
seen them? What do you think?

Thanks so much and hope you have a great day!

Cheers!

Cara
---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Mar 13, 2018, at 7:53 AM, Phil Halton  wrote:

I don’t understand how you can say that the accessibility with the fourth GEN 
is fine when you don’t even own one. Am I wrong or did you say you have the 
third GEN and then speculated about the fourth GEN saying it’s accessibility 
was  fine. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but this is the very definition 
of “fake news“. Actually, I just upgraded from the third GEN to the fourth GEN 
and I don’t find accessibility to be find at all. In fact, it’s kind of clunky 
in certain ways. No doubt the fourth GEN has its advantages especially with the 
Siri remote, but I kind of prefer the third GEN in certain areas. Oh well, I 
just had to chime in because you really blew my mind with that statement.

Sent from my IPhone


> On Mar 12, 2018, at 12:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>  I still have the 3rd generation so am limited to what apps are on it. I can 
> access all of my content that is in  the iTunes library very easily. 
> Sometimes I use other apps but with a 4th gen Apple TV I would likely use 
> even more of it. Accessibility is fine though some 3rd party apps may fall 
> short.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
>> On 3/12/2018 8:07 AM, 

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Nickus de Vos]

So I decided to go for it I purchased the Apple tv and should get it within the 
next day or so.

Nickus
Sent from my iPhone, please excuse any typos...

> On 13 Mar 2018, at 17:41, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> I find accessibility on my fourth generation Apple TV to be fantastic. I say 
> I want to watch season one of SVU and my wife hits a few buttons and it 
> starts playing, and sometimes there is even Audio Description.
> 
> In all honesty, I have managed the Apple TV a few times myself the hardest 
> part has always been changing the inputs on my stupid TV that does not pay 
> attention to the HTMI signal to turn on like Samsung TV’s do. The touch pad 
> is a little confusing, but I generally don’t need to use that and the 
> applications that integrate with the “TV” app make watching series from those 
> providers very easy. I can hit the “home/tv” button once to bring up the TV 
> app, and then can find that series and click play. 
> 
> Almost all of the NetFlick original content is Audio Described and that has 
> been a great boon. 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Jonathan  
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
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Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

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Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Jonathan Cohn]

I find accessibility on my fourth generation Apple TV to be fantastic. I say I 
want to watch season one of SVU and my wife hits a few buttons and it starts 
playing, and sometimes there is even Audio Description.

In all honesty, I have managed the Apple TV a few times myself the hardest part 
has always been changing the inputs on my stupid TV that does not pay attention 
to the HTMI signal to turn on like Samsung TV’s do. The touch pad is a little 
confusing, but I generally don’t need to use that and the applications that 
integrate with the “TV” app make watching series from those providers very 
easy. I can hit the “home/tv” button once to bring up the TV app, and then can 
find that series and click play. 

Almost all of the NetFlick original content is Audio Described and that has 
been a great boon. 
Best Wishes,

Jonathan  

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RE: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Sarai Bucciarelli]

The 4th gen is accessible. I have one, and use it everyday.

Sarai D Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli 

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> On 
Behalf Of CHUCK REICHEL
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 10:13 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

Hi ET!
Until you actually own a product you don't know what its really like.
I hear this all the time when engineers try too say what a Bill Bradley 
modified Neumann u87 microphone sounds like.
I use the Neumann u87  every day in my recording studio and  have first hand 
knowledge what the real story is! :)
I can discern "Fake News" because i know the genuine!!!
As for "POTUS" respect the office and Pray for peace!
Talk soon
Chuck


"God does not play dice with the universe"
"Albert Einstein’


On Mar 13, 2018, at 10:53 AM, E.T. wrote:

> Phil,
>   Please do not add legitimacy to the clown in the big white house and his 
> "fake news". (smile)
> 
>   You do understand. I've not seen any serious complaints about the 4th gen's 
> accessibility except with regard to some third party apps. I would be happy 
> to relieve you of your 4th and you can go back to your 3rd.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 3/13/2018 6:53 AM, Phil Halton wrote:
>> I don’t understand how you can say that the accessibility with the fourth 
>> GEN is fine when you don’t even own one. Am I wrong or did you say you have 
>> the third GEN and then speculated about the fourth GEN saying it’s 
>> accessibility was  fine. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but this is the 
>> very definition of “fake news“. Actually, I just upgraded from the third GEN 
>> to the fourth GEN and I don’t find accessibility to be find at all. In fact, 
>> it’s kind of clunky in certain ways. No doubt the fourth GEN has its 
>> advantages especially with the Siri remote, but I kind of prefer the third 
>> GEN in certain areas. Oh well, I just had to chime in because you really 
>> blew my mind with that statement.
>> Sent from my IPhone
>>> On Mar 12, 2018, at 12:06 PM, E.T. <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>   I still have the 3rd generation so am limited to what apps are on it. I 
>>> can access all of my content that is in  the iTunes library very easily. 
>>> Sometimes I use other apps but with a 4th gen Apple TV I would likely use 
>>> even more of it. Accessibility is fine though some 3rd party apps may fall 
>>> short.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
>>>> On 3/12/2018 8:07 AM, Nickus de Vos wrote:
>>>> Hi all
>>>> I’ve been thinking to get a Apple TV for a while and now a friend is 
>>>> selling his 4K HDR, a 64 GB one at a pretty good price.
>>>> I have no previous experience with Apple TV, so my question, what do you 
>>>> blind voiceover users use your Apple TV’s for?
>>>> Do you play games, do you listen to music, do you use video streaming 
>>>> services like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime?
>>>> Is apps like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime Video even accessible with 
>>>> Voiceover, those are the 3 apps I mainly stream video from.
>>>> Basically, will I get any joy from a Apple TV or will I only buy it for 
>>>> the rest of the family?
>>>> Nickus
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
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>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
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>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
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>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
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>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.

Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[CHUCK REICHEL]

Hi ET!
Until you actually own a product you don't know what its really like.
I hear this all the time when engineers try too say what a Bill Bradley 
modified Neumann u87 microphone sounds like.
I use the Neumann u87  every day in my recording studio and  have first hand 
knowledge what the real story is! :)
I can discern "Fake News" because i know the genuine!!!
As for "POTUS" respect the office and Pray for peace!
Talk soon
Chuck


"God does not play dice with the universe"
"Albert Einstein’


On Mar 13, 2018, at 10:53 AM, E.T. wrote:

> Phil,
>   Please do not add legitimacy to the clown in the big white house and his 
> "fake news". (smile)
> 
>   You do understand. I've not seen any serious complaints about the 4th gen's 
> accessibility except with regard to some third party apps. I would be happy 
> to relieve you of your 4th and you can go back to your 3rd.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 3/13/2018 6:53 AM, Phil Halton wrote:
>> I don’t understand how you can say that the accessibility with the fourth 
>> GEN is fine when you don’t even own one. Am I wrong or did you say you have 
>> the third GEN and then speculated about the fourth GEN saying it’s 
>> accessibility was  fine. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but this is the 
>> very definition of “fake news“. Actually, I just upgraded from the third GEN 
>> to the fourth GEN and I don’t find accessibility to be find at all. In fact, 
>> it’s kind of clunky in certain ways. No doubt the fourth GEN has its 
>> advantages especially with the Siri remote, but I kind of prefer the third 
>> GEN in certain areas. Oh well, I just had to chime in because you really 
>> blew my mind with that statement.
>> Sent from my IPhone
>>> On Mar 12, 2018, at 12:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>>   I still have the 3rd generation so am limited to what apps are on it. I 
>>> can access all of my content that is in  the iTunes library very easily. 
>>> Sometimes I use other apps but with a 4th gen Apple TV I would likely use 
>>> even more of it. Accessibility is fine though some 3rd party apps may fall 
>>> short.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
 On 3/12/2018 8:07 AM, Nickus de Vos wrote:
 Hi all
 I’ve been thinking to get a Apple TV for a while and now a friend is 
 selling his 4K HDR, a 64 GB one at a pretty good price.
 I have no previous experience with Apple TV, so my question, what do you 
 blind voiceover users use your Apple TV’s for?
 Do you play games, do you listen to music, do you use video streaming 
 services like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime?
 Is apps like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime Video even accessible with 
 Voiceover, those are the 3 apps I mainly stream video from.
 Basically, will I get any joy from a Apple TV or will I only buy it for 
 the rest of the family?
 Nickus
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
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>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
>>>  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
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> 
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Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[E.T.]

Phil,
   Please do not add legitimacy to the clown in the big white house and 
his "fake news". (smile)


   You do understand. I've not seen any serious complaints about the 
4th gen's accessibility except with regard to some third party apps. I 
would be happy to relieve you of your 4th and you can go back to your 3rd.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 3/13/2018 6:53 AM, Phil Halton wrote:

I don’t understand how you can say that the accessibility with the fourth GEN 
is fine when you don’t even own one. Am I wrong or did you say you have the 
third GEN and then speculated about the fourth GEN saying it’s accessibility 
was  fine. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but this is the very definition 
of “fake news“. Actually, I just upgraded from the third GEN to the fourth GEN 
and I don’t find accessibility to be find at all. In fact, it’s kind of clunky 
in certain ways. No doubt the fourth GEN has its advantages especially with the 
Siri remote, but I kind of prefer the third GEN in certain areas. Oh well, I 
just had to chime in because you really blew my mind with that statement.

Sent from my IPhone



On Mar 12, 2018, at 12:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:

   I still have the 3rd generation so am limited to what apps are on it. I can 
access all of my content that is in  the iTunes library very easily. Sometimes 
I use other apps but with a 4th gen Apple TV I would likely use even more of 
it. Accessibility is fine though some 3rd party apps may fall short.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?


On 3/12/2018 8:07 AM, Nickus de Vos wrote:
Hi all
I’ve been thinking to get a Apple TV for a while and now a friend is selling 
his 4K HDR, a 64 GB one at a pretty good price.
I have no previous experience with Apple TV, so my question, what do you blind 
voiceover users use your Apple TV’s for?
Do you play games, do you listen to music, do you use video streaming services 
like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime?
Is apps like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime Video even accessible with 
Voiceover, those are the 3 apps I mainly stream video from.
Basically, will I get any joy from a Apple TV or will I only buy it for the 
rest of the family?
Nickus


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Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi,

I imagine that ET was simply using an educated guess.  There's been lots of 
posts over the past years to do with the 4th Gen Apple TV that one could 
responsibly make an educated guess.  Now, I find the accessibility just fine of 
the Apple TV 4.  Slightly different than the earlier versions, but totally 
fine, but each do have their own experiences which mold their opinions.

Later...

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Mar 13, 2018, at 07:53, Phil Halton  wrote:

I don’t understand how you can say that the accessibility with the fourth GEN 
is fine when you don’t even own one. Am I wrong or did you say you have the 
third GEN and then speculated about the fourth GEN saying it’s accessibility 
was  fine. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but this is the very definition 
of “fake news“. Actually, I just upgraded from the third GEN to the fourth GEN 
and I don’t find accessibility to be find at all. In fact, it’s kind of clunky 
in certain ways. No doubt the fourth GEN has its advantages especially with the 
Siri remote, but I kind of prefer the third GEN in certain areas. Oh well, I 
just had to chime in because you really blew my mind with that statement.

Sent from my IPhone


> On Mar 12, 2018, at 12:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>  I still have the 3rd generation so am limited to what apps are on it. I can 
> access all of my content that is in  the iTunes library very easily. 
> Sometimes I use other apps but with a 4th gen Apple TV I would likely use 
> even more of it. Accessibility is fine though some 3rd party apps may fall 
> short.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
>> On 3/12/2018 8:07 AM, Nickus de Vos wrote:
>> Hi all
>> I’ve been thinking to get a Apple TV for a while and now a friend is selling 
>> his 4K HDR, a 64 GB one at a pretty good price.
>> I have no previous experience with Apple TV, so my question, what do you 
>> blind voiceover users use your Apple TV’s for?
>> Do you play games, do you listen to music, do you use video streaming 
>> services like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime?
>> Is apps like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime Video even accessible with 
>> Voiceover, those are the 3 apps I mainly stream video from.
>> Basically, will I get any joy from a Apple TV or will I only buy it for the 
>> rest of the family?
>> Nickus
> 
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Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Phil Halton]

I don’t understand how you can say that the accessibility with the fourth GEN 
is fine when you don’t even own one. Am I wrong or did you say you have the 
third GEN and then speculated about the fourth GEN saying it’s accessibility 
was  fine. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but this is the very definition 
of “fake news“. Actually, I just upgraded from the third GEN to the fourth GEN 
and I don’t find accessibility to be find at all. In fact, it’s kind of clunky 
in certain ways. No doubt the fourth GEN has its advantages especially with the 
Siri remote, but I kind of prefer the third GEN in certain areas. Oh well, I 
just had to chime in because you really blew my mind with that statement.

Sent from my IPhone


> On Mar 12, 2018, at 12:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   I still have the 3rd generation so am limited to what apps are on it. I can 
> access all of my content that is in  the iTunes library very easily. 
> Sometimes I use other apps but with a 4th gen Apple TV I would likely use 
> even more of it. Accessibility is fine though some 3rd party apps may fall 
> short.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
>> On 3/12/2018 8:07 AM, Nickus de Vos wrote:
>> Hi all
>> I’ve been thinking to get a Apple TV for a while and now a friend is selling 
>> his 4K HDR, a 64 GB one at a pretty good price.
>> I have no previous experience with Apple TV, so my question, what do you 
>> blind voiceover users use your Apple TV’s for?
>> Do you play games, do you listen to music, do you use video streaming 
>> services like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime?
>> Is apps like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime Video even accessible with 
>> Voiceover, those are the 3 apps I mainly stream video from.
>> Basically, will I get any joy from a Apple TV or will I only buy it for the 
>> rest of the family?
>> Nickus
> 
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Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[E.T.]

   I still have the 3rd generation so am limited to what apps are on 
it. I can access all of my content that is in  the iTunes library very 
easily. Sometimes I use other apps but with a 4th gen Apple TV I would 
likely use even more of it. Accessibility is fine though some 3rd party 
apps may fall short.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 3/12/2018 8:07 AM, Nickus de Vos wrote:

Hi all
I’ve been thinking to get a Apple TV for a while and now a friend is selling 
his 4K HDR, a 64 GB one at a pretty good price.

I have no previous experience with Apple TV, so my question, what do you blind 
voiceover users use your Apple TV’s for?
Do you play games, do you listen to music, do you use video streaming services 
like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime?

Is apps like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime Video even accessible with 
Voiceover, those are the 3 apps I mainly stream video from.

Basically, will I get any joy from a Apple TV or will I only buy it for the 
rest of the family?

Nickus



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Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Nickus de Vos]

Thanks Tim
Personally I also don’t bother with gaming even on my iPhone even though I 
sometimes miss gaming from my sighted school days.

> On 12 Mar 2018, at 17:22, Tim Kilburn  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Although there are games available, I'm not sure of their accessibility as I 
> don't bother with that part of the Apple TV.  I primarily use it for the 
> items you've mentioned as well as some other services such as CBC TV and such 
> in Canada.  YouTube is totally accessible as is Netflix.  Amazon Prime is 
> mostly accessible, although I find it a little more clunky and frustrating at 
> times.  Granted, I haven't used the services much lately as I'm in the midst 
> of some renovations, so the main media area with the big TV, Apple TV and 
> surround sound audio is under cover for protection from mega-dust.
> 
> Later...
> 
> 
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
> On Mar 12, 2018, at 09:07, Nickus de Vos  wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> I’ve been thinking to get a Apple TV for a while and now a friend is selling 
> his 4K HDR, a 64 GB one at a pretty good price.
> 
> I have no previous experience with Apple TV, so my question, what do you 
> blind voiceover users use your Apple TV’s for?
> Do you play games, do you listen to music, do you use video streaming 
> services like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime?
> 
> Is apps like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime Video even accessible with 
> Voiceover, those are the 3 apps I mainly stream video from.
> 
> Basically, will I get any joy from a Apple TV or will I only buy it for the 
> rest of the family?
> 
> Nickus
> 
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Re: What use do you find from your Apple TV?

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi,

Although there are games available, I'm not sure of their accessibility as I 
don't bother with that part of the Apple TV.  I primarily use it for the items 
you've mentioned as well as some other services such as CBC TV and such in 
Canada.  YouTube is totally accessible as is Netflix.  Amazon Prime is mostly 
accessible, although I find it a little more clunky and frustrating at times.  
Granted, I haven't used the services much lately as I'm in the midst of some 
renovations, so the main media area with the big TV, Apple TV and surround 
sound audio is under cover for protection from mega-dust.

Later...



Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Mar 12, 2018, at 09:07, Nickus de Vos  wrote:

Hi all
I’ve been thinking to get a Apple TV for a while and now a friend is selling 
his 4K HDR, a 64 GB one at a pretty good price.

I have no previous experience with Apple TV, so my question, what do you blind 
voiceover users use your Apple TV’s for?
Do you play games, do you listen to music, do you use video streaming services 
like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime?

Is apps like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon Prime Video even accessible with 
Voiceover, those are the 3 apps I mainly stream video from.

Basically, will I get any joy from a Apple TV or will I only buy it for the 
rest of the family?

Nickus

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