Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 2/27/20 2:08 PM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
...
> What has this yielded?
> 
> "Most of the most commonly used parts" of Twisted are now Python 3
> compatible.

I hear this how upgrading any django installation from one python-3
version to another python-3 version usually goes. I.e. long-term, at
this point we're still better off porting MM2 than switching to MM3.

Not sure why, though: Jan 2020 has come and gone and all my python-2
scripts are still working. Amazingly enough.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] send_reminders frequency

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 1/29/20 12:23 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 1/29/20 7:43 AM, dmaziuk via Mailman-Users wrote:
>>
>> apologies if this is a faq and my google-fu's failing to find the
>> answer: can I change send_reminders to e.g. yearly?
> 
> 
> Mailman's cron/mailpasswds is run via cron. You can edit Mailman's
> crontab to run it on whatever schedule you like.
> 

Thank you Mark

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Re: [Mailman-Users] IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied on config.pck in Fedora 30

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 7/25/19 2:30 PM, Robert Kudyba wrote:

> Have you seen the suggestion to use Apache with suexec at
> https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Apache+Suexec ? My first attempt was
> unsuccessful

FWIW I could never get suexec to work reliably.

Repartition the drive properly (get rid of LVM), use ext4, mount with
"suid", disable selinux, and generally: upgrade your system to centos 6
or alpine if you need the latest kernel.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Why are mails not being sent to all users (mails seem to disappear)?

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 5/30/19 7:46 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Or that systemd prevented the emails from being sent in the first place, 
> and didn't log the fact that it had done so?

I don't think systemd metastasized its own smtpd just yet, so it
probably can't do that. Fear not, though, it has its own DNS resolver
already, I'm sure it won't take long.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] utf-8 error with all lists

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 5/13/19 10:19 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 5/13/19 7:46 AM, Jason Morrill wrote:
>>

>> It appears that lowercase does return an apparent properly lowercased string 
>> of letters. So, I'm uncertain why the hand-edited code would function 
>> differently.
> 
> 
> This is what we were unable to solve in the original thread starting at
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2019-March/084241.html>
> for 10 posts and then continuing at
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2019-March/084266.html>
> for another 13 posts.

Just pipe it through

lambda fixstr s : return unicodedata.normalize('NFKD',
 s.decode('utf-8')).encode('ascii','ignore'))

or something along those lines first and be done with it.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 4/12/19 10:21 AM, Matthew Goebel wrote:
> Won't redhat just apply/support fixes provided the software vendor?  If
> something comes up with python
> how likely are they to build their own fix?

https://access.redhat.com/security/updates/backporting/


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

PS not that I disagree that the practical way out right now is to make a
simple e.g. flask-based UI for MM3.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 4/11/19 12:15 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Generally older Python 3 code will run on newer versions. The issues are
> trying to run code developed for newer Python 3 versions on older versions.

The problem is reliance on third-party libraries coupled with absence of
usable package management system. It will "generally" run within the
same major interpreter version unless it imports a package that got
updated by some other python app on the system.

This is why containers are such a big deal: they're the only safe way to
have 2 python applications on the same host. (Coincidentally, I hear
docker's written in go and singularity recently got rewritten in go.)

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 4/11/2019 3:22 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:


...  If you want something that's never going to
change, Python 2.7 is as good as anything else.


Some orgs have "cybersecurity" with "vulnerability scanners". You may 
have to spend more time hiding your python version from them, then 
you'll spend hiding/patching the actual issues from Evil Hackers.


Ask me how I know about Apache's "ServerTokens".

Dima
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 4/10/19 2:08 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

> Or rust, or python3 (which might be the easiest). I'm not sufficiently
> up on the python differences, but. it can't be -that- difficult.
> (and aren't there tools to assist? some code claims to be both v2 and v3
> compatible) (gnat? that's really ada, isn't it?)

Python 3.4 is not compatible with python 3.6 is not compatible with
python 3.7 -- there is not guarantee you won't have to do the same dance
again and again every couple of years. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Ada (yes) and Go's the stated goal is to be long-term stable. Something
that basically isn't broken, like MM2, wouldn't need to be fixed
"because 2020".

> Maybe there's a place for a community-driven port of MM2 onto python3. I
> am not volunteering, too many other projects currently.

MM probably deals with strings a lot, and strings is exactly what they
felt they needed to do differently in python 3... I'm sure there's other
monsters there too.

I suspect the practical answer may be as simple as replacing
/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman with
"""
cat - | docker exec MM2_CONTAINTER /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman "$@" -
"""
and maybe when I get a round tuit for upgrading our mail server I'll
give that a try...
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 4/10/19 12:49 PM, Sean McBride wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 12:38:34 -0500, Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users said:
> 
>> How much support for python 2 have you been getting until now, and why
>> do you believe you will need it in the future?
> 
> Fixes to security vulnerabilities basically.  If/when some new one is found 
> after 2020, you're screwed.

Screwed how, exactly?

With a properly sandboxed application your security vulnerability has to
be a) exploitable through that application and b) able to break out of
the sandbox and wreak havoc to your host system.

It's all perfectly possible in theory but really, do a basic risk
analysis before jumping on the knee-jerk security bandwagon.

(That said, given the history of python, my question would be if there
are any plans to port MM2 to golang or maybe gnat.)
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 4/10/19 10:36 AM, Matthew Goebel wrote:
> Hey,
> 
>   Now that all support for Python 2 is supposed to go away in 2020 are
> people going to move off of mailman 2?

How much support for python 2 have you been getting until now, and why
do you believe you will need it in the future?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] FetchMail feed into Mailman

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 3/26/19 4:12 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

> Sure, FetchMail can pull email from the ISP and inject it into the local
> server.  But what advantage does that gain you?  Is said advantage worth
> the complexity?

Apparently lennartwware-infested linux distros no longer require MTA,
presumably because smtp is implemented inside systemd now. I'm not sure
the "extra complexity" argument holds, though.

Before this, cron needed an MTA and stock maintenance stuff like log
rotation ran from crontab. So there was more complexity in getting one
set up without a local MTA, than in setting up postfix.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 3/21/19 3:57 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

> Fetchmail itself is plenty common.  I had no idea that it was as common
> with Mailman.  209 hits on the link that Mark shared.

I honestly don't remember the details but if I was passing mail to local
MTA configured as my home MX, I don't see why mailman wouldn't work
behind that.

> The 45 messages mentioning UUCP surprises me more.
:)

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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman on google comput engine

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 3/21/19 1:56 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 3/21/19 11:29 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
>>
>> I see no technical reason why Mailman couldn't function via something
>> like fetchmail from a POP3 mailbox and SMTP Authentication to send.
...
>> It would be quite atypical.  But I think it should work.
> 
> 
> It's not as atypical as you think. See, e.g.,
> <https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=fetchmail=mailman-users%40python.org>.

IST vaguely R firing up fetchmail from a dip script to inject messages
from my school mailbox into my local qmail... Plenty typical at the time.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] mm-handler same as postfix-to-mailman.py

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 1/7/19 2:13 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

> I think Sendmail (and other MTAs that I've tested) default to
> user@host.domain too.  But that's just a default that's easy to change.

LOL. Not on IRIX it wasn't.

> Or are you saying that you used
> MX records to route email to a different machine, possibly a mail hub?

That. If you want a single MX accepting mail for the Internet, you have
to have virtual domains on it for your every host, and make sure SMTP
and/or DNS reliable routes addres@host.domain to address@domain. Which
may be easier than I think, I never tried...

Granted we're talking "just one" @list.domain here. Well, maybe also
@list.domain... and then by strong mathematical induction we arrive at
the above.

> B) I would hope that other things like SPF / DKIM / DMARC would help
> reduce this considerably.  But I'm not going to hope enough to hold my
> breath.

But then you wouldn't need it in mailman: if it's spoofed as per dmarc,
you just reject it regardless ot its destination.

> C) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  I suspect it's highly mailing list dependent.  -  I
> personally like to do as much as possible during the SMTP transaction.
> So if there is a reasonable way to apply some Mailman filtering logic to
> applicable messages, why not do it?

Like I said, it's probably whooping 10 extra lines of python -- as long
as you use postfix. The question is how much work it is to support other
MTAs.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] SOLVED scrub attachments

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 12/14/18 11:18 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030680>.

Oh, so it's a feature. Colour me surprised.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] SOLVED scrub attachments

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

So this was a user problem, mailman works exactly as advertised:
- user has his e-mail forwarded to gmail,
- gmail put it in "all mail",
- not seeing it in "inbox", the user went and checked the archives,
- where the attachments were scrubbed.

Now that we found the actual e-mails, the attachments are there indeed.

(I expect having "not me too" set would do this, too, but it wasn't the
case here.)
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Re: [Mailman-Users] scrub attachments

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 12/12/18 5:53 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> If you're asking if a non-digest member is set to 'plain' would
> attachments be scrubbed from posts sent to that member, the answer is
> no. the 'plain' setting affects only the digest format for digest
> members. It has no effect for non-digest members.

OK, thank you. I guess I need to double-check what the guy actually
saw/got: all I nave to go on is the archive (where attachments are
scrubbed as intended) and the config that says the list is nondigestable
= 1, digestable = 0. Perhaps his gmail ate the pdfs, or he is not
receiving his own messages or something...

Thanks again
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Re: [Mailman-Users] scrub attachments

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 12/12/18 4:42 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Those settings allow non-plain text attachments to remain as attachments
> in individual messages and MIME format digests sent to list members, but
> they will always be 'scrubbed' from plain text digests and the pipermail
> archive because those things only support plain text, possibly with
> hyperlinks to removed non-plain text parts.

It's a non-digest list (and yes, I get the archives), but here's the
thought: if a member's set to "plain", would that also trigger the scrub?

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[Mailman-Users] scrub attachments

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

Hi all,

I've a user send a message with pdf attachments and they ended up as
html links to the web archive. Which is fine except
- content filtering is off,
- scrub attachments is set to no.
I though that was supposed to allow attachments through. I guess I
thought wrong, but what am I missing?

TIA
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Translation (Localization) of mail addresses?

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 12/06/2018 11:24 AM, Lucio Chiappetti wrote:

> As a native italian speaker (who however virtually always uses the
> English interface in the *GUI* of mailman and any other tool) I would
> regard as highly inconvenient any localization of *service address
> suffixes*).

Oh, I dunno. I think "почтальон-отскакивет" sounds hilarious in Russian.
(Google translation, although incorrect, ain't bad either.) I see great
fun potential.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Some site blocking our emails from mailman 2.1.29 ?

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 11/30/2018 04:17 PM, Matthew Goebel wrote:
> Hello,
> 
>   We've recently had one or two sites block email coming from one of our
> lists.
> They seem to indicate it is because of sending address having bounces in it?
> ie... listname-boun...@list.emich.edu
> This seems odd, and I'm trying to figure out if anyone else has ever seen
> this?
> Not much I can do about this with mailman if true?

No, not much anyone can do: you can't overcome stupid.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] members not receiving their own messages.

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 08/21/2018 06:06 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> I'm sorry not to be of more help, but I think it's likely that the
> best we will offer are the digest option and the "ack" functionality
> so that users will know the mailing list received the message.

Or they could check out list archives and see if their message is there.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How do I run 2.x mailman more securely?

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 05/31/2018 04:52 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On 05/31/2018 03:05 PM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
>> What exactly is it about mailman usernames and passwords that you are
>> trying to protect with HTTPS?
> 
> I wasn't talking about Mailman usernames (email addresses) and
> passwords.  I was talking about the usernames and passwords for Basic
> HTTP(S) authentication.  As in authenticating to the web server and
> having it control who can access the Mailman Web UI.

Ah, sorry, I didn't realize you propose to protect subscriber's username
and password by requiring a second username and password to get to them.
Moving along now.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How do I run 2.x mailman more securely?

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 05/31/2018 02:40 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On 05/31/2018 01:18 PM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
>> Yeah, I too once thought that was a good idea.
> 
> I'm not quite following you.  Are you saying that you now dislike
> HTTP(S) usernames & passwords specifically?

I do dislike the HTTPS push specifically. Google has a vested interest
in stopping those pesky ISPs from replacing Google's revenue-generating
ads with their own. I don't.

What exactly is it about mailman usernames and passwords that you are
trying to protect with HTTPS?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How do I run 2.x mailman more securely?

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 05/31/2018 01:25 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On 05/30/2018 03:36 PM, Parker, Michael D. wrote:
>> I've been assigned the task of attempting to secure our current
>> implementation of GNU MailMan.
> 
> One thing that I've not seen (or missed) in this thread is the idea of
> leveraging HTTPS usernames and passwords to protect the web interface.

Yeah, I too once thought that was a good idea. And then heartbleed came
along, and our knee-jerk security department cut off everyone who hasn't
patched in 24 hours -- *at the gateway*. As Murphy would have it, I was
traveling across the Atlantic and our other IT guy was driving across
North America. And of course cut-off at the gateway meant no mail, no
ssh, no way to know what happened and no way to fix it.

This stuff sounds like it's coming from the same security experts.
Proper answer with those guys is don't run mailman. Export the
subscribers and use it as CC list in Orifice'365: you can't go wrong
with "industry standard".

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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-cabal] GDPR

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 05/14/2018 05:02 PM, Ángel wrote:

> Being nitpicky. What about sysadmins subscribed to this list as part of
> their professional activity ? (but otherwise interacting in the same way
> as a hobbyist)

How do hobbyists interact? Enquiring minds want to know.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-cabal] GDPR

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 05/12/2018 03:39 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> I think the basic inconvenient truth is that *some*body *will* come
> after *some*body else on the basis that they *might* have enough money
> to pay a settlement, or just to make "the responding party's" life
> hell.

Possibly. Also an asteroid size of Texas will hit the Caribbean at some
point in this planet's lifetime and I don't believe I should start
building an asteroid-killing Death Star just yet either.

And besides, I strongly suspect that all the legalese one can write for
the mailman's starting page will have a little unguarded duct in it
leading all the way to the soft chewy core and... KABOOM!

I.e. I'm talking the cure worse than the disease. Especially when there
are no observable symptoms yet.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-cabal] GDPR

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 05/11/2018 04:55 PM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
...

I think the basic inconvenient truth is nobody's going to come after you
unless you have money to pay the settlement. I expect the impact on
"smaller lists run by Unpaid Volunteers" to be about on par with that of
the right to be forgotten. How many people here had to delete messages
and rebuild the archives because of it?

And besides, I've done that a few times cleaning up spam that got past
the filters -- it's not *that* hard.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Sending domain does not exist but it actually does?

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 03/22/2018 01:48 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> That should be OK assuming as Dimitri Maziuk says you have
> "inet_protocols = ipv4" in your postfix config (or the
> equivalent for your MTA).

On 2nd thought, if they are the ones bouncing, *they* may be running
 query instead of the A one. Check if that resolves, in addition to MX.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Sending domain does not exist but it actually does?

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 03/22/2018 01:14 PM, Jayson Smith wrote:

> ... My host
> supports IPV6 but I'm not using it for mail.

As in you have "inet_protocols = ipv4" in your postfix config (or the
equivalent for your MTA)? Otherwise it's not quite up to you.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] 'Read-only file system' when processing posts

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 03/01/2018 12:06 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> The one thing you can check (I don't think check_perms checks it) is
> mailman's aliases.db file MUST be owned by mailman. Postfix runs the
> pipe as the user that owns the aliases.db file in which the pipe alias
> is found. See DELIVERY RIGHTS in 'man local'.

I've seem disk/fs errors causing "read only filesystem", but then you
get the same error creating a file in there by hand. Which I'm assuming
is not the case here.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Message-ID required - was: Reply-to options not working

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2018-02-06 04:09, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:


Do you have something to add to that, or disagree with that?


I said it was what *I* believe, not what IETF believes.

Dima


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Message-ID required - was: Reply-to options not working

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 02/05/2018 11:55 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 02/05/2018 12:22 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>>
>> According to RFC, Message-ID is an originator field, and MUST be
>> present and MUST be unique.
> 
> Do you have a reference for this? I thought this was correct, but I
> recently looked it up in RFC 5322 and predecessors (see
> <https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-us...@mailman3.org/thread/UCH46WS4RII5HKZWGQTBUDUHZMJZDFNC/>,
> and those RFCs at least say it's optional and SHOULD be present.

Heh. I personally believe that a message sent by a mailing list *must*
have the mailing list as the originator: dkim, id, and whatever else.
And then there *should* be a way to reply "off list". Of course then you
have to preserve the original originator all the way to the beginning, so...

And even if "Message-ID MUST be present and MUST be unique", that
doesn't make the converse true: that two copies of the same message
*must* carry the same Message-ID.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to options not working

[Dimitri Maziuk]

And PPS my maildropex(7) has

'''
Check if the Message-ID: header in the message is identical to the same
header that was recently seen. Discard the message if it is, otherwise
   continue to filter the message:

   ‘reformail -D 8000 duplicate.cache‘
   if ( $RETURNCODE == 0 )
   exit

   The reformail[1] command maintains a list of recently seen
Message-IDs in the file duplicate.cache.
'''

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to options not working

[Dimitri Maziuk]

To answer my own question, the one I got back from the list has the same
message id that was sent out so a t least in this particular delivery
chain nothing mangled it.

In that case keeping a list of the N last delivered message ids and
discarding ones already on the list shouldn't be too difficult indeed.
The only problem then is list mail will seldom land in the list
sub-folders as the direct replies should almost always come first and
land in inbox.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to options not working

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 01/30/2018 03:27 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

> About the only thing that I can think to do would be to have my LDA
> deliver a copy of the post from the mailing list to a script that would
> search the Inbox for messages with the same Message-ID and then
> retroactively remove them.

Does it ave the same Message-ID though? I suppose if I reply-both on
this one, you'll have an easy way to check.

(sending to both)
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to options not working

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 01/30/2018 02:33 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

> ...  I'm also
> not aware of much that Thunderbird can do.

There is/was a plug-in for finding duplicates. It only works if you have
both, if you already deleted the off-list copy that's no different from
what you get with procmail.

Dep. on your MDA setup, list replies could go to list folder and
off-list copies: to main inbox. In which case I think that thunderbird
plug-in would not work either, even if you still have both on disk.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to options not working

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2018-01-29 23:51, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

... [ Reply-To ] should have a checkbox "same as my

 From address."


Oh, great, now I'll rreecceeiivvee eevveerryytthhiinngg ttwwiiccee..

Dima

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to options not working

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2018-01-24 02:50, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

I'd appreciate if those who have strong opinions on this would take a
look at the analysis below and tell me if I'm missing something.


While I don't have a strong opinion, getting two copes of the same 
message (usual "reply all") behaviour is suboptimal. I've the "please CC 
me when replying to list" .sig for lists where people do it a lot -- not 
that I've been on many lately.


The BBS/webforum convention is "private message" that may or may not 
come with "PM sent" note in the discussion thread. I think that's the 
reasonable way of doing it and that a MUA, when replying to a ML post, 
should give the user 2 options: "reply to list" and "reply off-list".


Since the list should rewrite the From header for DKIMARC, these would 
correspond to list-post/from and reply-to resp.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to options not working

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 01/22/2018 04:55 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Its worse than that: what about people who intentionally set the Reply 
> To header on *non-mailing list* emails?

Then you won't get the "reply list" option in the first place.

In the basic reply-to case, the mailer *should* -- as defined by modern
RFCs -- honor the reply-to header.

In the case of a mailing list my options are reply to list, reply to
From:, reply to Reply-To:, or any combination thereof, and I fully
expect the program to read both my and the original sender's minds and
Do The Right Thing(tm) with a single click.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] local recipient table

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 01/05/2018 02:38 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:

> not what mailman does with the SMTPHost, and that is my point.  It
> should be documented clearer (or fixed?).

I think MX record is documented fairly clearly on e.g. wikipedia. The
rest of it spelled out in Defaults.py in my installation:

- "delivery module for *outgoing* mail" (emphasis mine: "outgoing" means
MX doesn't apply), and

- "make sure the host exists and is resolvable".

Presumably mailman is not doing anything fancier than
 import socket
 socket.gethostbyname()
and your non-fqdn SMTPHost will not resolve if you try the above in
python shell.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] local recipient table

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 01/05/2018 02:13 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:

> That is not a true statement.  When you are looking for a MAIL host, it
> is logical to ask for it with an MX record.

Fine. Dig for an MX record for your defined SMTPHost and see what you get.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] local recipient table

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 01/05/2018 01:34 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
> On 01/05/2018 01:41 PM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
>> On 01/05/2018 11:49 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:
>>
>>> SMTPHost seems to do a non-mx record lookup for the value ... which is a
>>> little strange.

>> When you look up
>> an MX, you can look up an MX for a *domain*, *or* you could look up an
>> MX for a *host*. 
> 
> NO NO NO
> 
> You are looking up a host.  You can do that with a domain name, or a
> specific host name, but you are looking up for a HOST, or more than a
> single host with rankings, with a specific ip addresses.

I think you are confused: I am not talking about what you get back, I am
talking about what you ask *for*.

You can ask for an MX record for *FOOHost*.

You can ask an MX record for FOOHost's *domain*.

They are *not the same* MX record and there is no mechanism to return
the latter if you ask for the former.

When you are *looking up a host*, you are asking for A/CNAME. That's a
"non-mx record lookup" which you find "a little strange". It isn't.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] local recipient table

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 01/05/2018 11:49 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:

> SMTPHost seems to do a non-mx record lookup for the value ... which is a
> little strange.

When you look up a *host*, you look for A/PTR or CNAME. When you look up
an MX, you can look up an MX for a *domain*, *or* you could look up an
MX for a *host*. I expect in most cases if you query for MX for
SMTP*Host* you'll get nothing -- I wonder how many admins define MXers
for each host these days.

It shouldn't need FQDN though, it should add search domain suffix(es)
from /etc/resolv.conf.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] mm_cfg

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 01/04/2018 01:01 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> Also, since group assignments, file locations, etc. are still somewhat
> distribution-specific for Mailman, it would be helpful if the standard
> build would include an executable binary, e.g. "mailman-config", which
> would simply spit back the compiled-in prefix, exec-prefix, bindir,
> sbindir, etc., along with the full configure argument string as it
> appeared at build time.

It probably would be, but OTOH for my next upgrade I might just install
docker on all my servers and make a container with 2.1.latest, built
exactly like its authors intended.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] mm_cfg

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2018-01-04 11:06, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:


As I understand your
post, RH/Centos leaves mm_cfg.py in /var/lib/mailman/Mailman and puts
a link in /etc.  But Debian moves the actual file to /etc/mailman, and
puts a link in /var/lib/mailman/Mailman.  Almost surely people are
going to end up with their custom configs overwritten with the default
when they upgrade.


Debian's way is better for this use case because it's /etc/mailman that 
moves between the nodes. Anyway, on 2nd thought I'll just modify it on 
both nodes: it's not like it gets any changes after the initial hostname 
and spamassassin additions.



It's just not worth it for an application that's basically EOL, just
to make one user with an exceptional environment happier.


No, of course not.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] mm_cfg

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 01/02/2018 10:03 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 01/02/2018 04:48 PM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:

> Basically, your question relates to the RHEL Mailman package and the
> second link above is all we know about that.

Fair enough but I should think expecting site-specific settings to live
under /etc is no longer distro-specific and that mm_cfg.py violates the
principle of least surprise for any distro since fsstnd.

The other option is to use any of the file sync mechanisms to keep
identical copies on mm_cfg.py on the two nodes. I need to patch both for
SpamAssassin anyway and since mm_cfg doesn't change after initial edits,
maybe I'll just do that instead of symlinks to symlinks to symlinks...

Thanks anyway,
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[Mailman-Users] mm_cfg

[Dimitri Maziuk]

Hi all,

I'd like to move a mailman install to a failover setup with drbd for
shared storage. The way it works is active host mounts /dev/drbd
filesystem and sets up syminks e.g.
  /var/spool/mailman -> /drbd/var/spool/mailman
  /etc/mailman -> /drbd/etc/mailman

My questions are a) what to do /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py that on my systems
is a symlink to /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py and b) are there any
other special ones like this hiding in there?

With mm_cfg, I guess I'll put it on /drbd and have the script link
/usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py to /drbd/someplace/mm_cfg.py -- does
that sound workable?

Any other gotchas?

(The setup is centos 6 with mailman 2.1.12 with whatever patches RedHat
added without changing the version number.)

TIA
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 12/07/2017 12:25 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> On 12/7/2017 10:21 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
>> This is a religious dispute.
> 
> Yep.

Only FVO religion = "belief that computer can read your mind".

Presumably there exist some lists and/or users out there for which
replying to one or the other (or both) is *always* The Right Thing(tm).
I don't remember ever running into one myself.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Removing archived spam

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 11/13/2017 06:03 PM, eminmn wrote:
> Steve:
> 
> On 11/12/2017 23:37, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>> Dimitri Maziuk writes:
>>
>>   > Heh. You made me look. No, contrary to the popular belief LiGNUx
>> did not
>>   > invent the world,
>>
>> There is no such thing as LiGNUx.  Stallman may have his fingers in a
>> lot of software (to my everlasting annoyance; he wrote, and at last
>> check circa 2013 continues to write, some of the most unmaintainable
>> and uncomposable crap), but he didn't invent the world either (he does
>> seem to have independently invented #AlternativeFacts, though).
> 
> Everybody knows that the correct term is Glunix; Lignux is just one of
> Glunix's lugnuts.

Actually, I was commenting on Stephen's "pretty sure Mailman's was
first" -- some other mail man's might have been, but this GNU Mailman's
wasn't.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Removing archived spam

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2017-11-12 12:06, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:


other unix vendors

^^^

braino. "the only unix vendors left standing".

Dima

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Removing archived spam

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2017-11-11 18:34, Jordan Brown wrote:

arch(1) dates back to at least SunOS 4.0, ca 1987.  I haven't been able 
to find manual pages before that.


The competitor, "uname -m", dates back at least that far, in the System 
V branch of UNIX - it's in the SVID in 1986.


...

So I think the simple answer is that both the Sun/Berkeley fork and the 
AT/SysV fork realized the need for a better answer than the "machid" 
commands, and independently invented different answers.


By the time posix committee got to writing the standard about the only 
other unix vendors left standing were ibm and sun. So they picked the 
big iron way.


Whereas I've never seen an aches box in use in a cs department. It's all 
sparks. My guess is cs students playing with linux were shaping it the 
sunos way simply because of that. And by then a decade's worth of sunos 
shell scripts that called /bin/arch.


(Sun ran a 50% educational discount since I got to write purchase orders 
and until they went amd and lost the profit margin.)


Dima


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Removing archived spam

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2017-11-11 17:19, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 11/11/2017 02:28 PM, Hal via Mailman-Users wrote:

...

The "LISTNAME.mbox/" directory contains a single "LISTNAME.mbox" file
while the "LISTNAME/" directory contains a variety of files and
sub-directories by month. I suppose I have to clean things up in both of
those paths?


The latter is auto-generated from the former by the (bin/|mm)arch.


That depends. The easiest way to do it completely and correctly is to
edit the LISTNAME.mbox/LISTNAME.mbox file and replace the spam bodies
with "spam removed" or some such text and similarly for the Subject:
headers, but leave the edited messages there so messages aren't
renumbered when you do the next step.


Note that this only really matters if you think/know people have 
hyperlinks to archived messages *and* you care about not breaking those 
links. E.g. this link would be broken if the messages get renumbered:



You might review this entire thread beginning at


...

However if Mark said "you might review the entire thread titled 
'Removing archived spam' at 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2017-November/thread.html; 
it wouldn't be a problem.


I think in terms of teh amount of work involved there is no much 
difference between deleting the entire message from .mbox file vs. 
deleting only the body and updating the subject. So you might as well do 
it right: Mark's way.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Removing archived spam

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2017-11-11 12:22, Phil Stracchino wrote:


Heh, I just looked at that myself.  How did such a useless tool ever
become standard?


My guess is IIRC SunOS was on Solaris 8 by 2001, and it was *the* 
grown-up 64-bit unix: every other unix vendor's keeled over or was about 
to and x86_64 didn't exist. So it was a standard utility on the standard 
unix by the time when posix decided in 2001 The Standard Shall Be That 
Other Thing. Good thing about standards, as we all know, is there's 
plenty to choose from.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Removing archived spam

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2017-11-10 01:06, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Dimitri Maziuk writes:

  > well, given /bin/arch and its importance to packagers and such, you'd
  > have to agree that bin/arch was perhaps not the best choice of name.
  > ;)

Yup, and pretty sure Mailman's was first.  There's a reason why
namespaces were invented.


Heh. You made me look. No, contrary to the popular belief LiGNUx did not 
invent the world, nor did mailman invent "arch". Sunos had it since 
forever, but it appears nobody else did. Somehow it made its way into 
linux and apparently everyone's been trying to get rid of it ever since. 
Including sunos.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Removing archived spam

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 11/08/2017 06:00 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 11/07/2017 10:41 AM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
>>
>> man mmarch
> 
> 
> Which is apparently some packager's version of Mailman's bin/arch

well, given /bin/arch and its importance to packagers and such, you'd
have to agree that bin/arch was perhaps not the best choice of name.
;)
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Removing archived spam

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 11/07/2017 01:29 AM, Hal via Mailman-Users wrote:
> I run a low-volume mailing list (using Mailman 2.1.12) and I see that a
> few spam-messages have gotten through, which also means they're archived.
> I would like to remove them but all the info I can find when searching
> online are along the lines of "hard to do", "shouldn't be attempted",
> "impossible" and so on. Is this correct, or is there a solution?

man mmarch

I haven't done this in forever but IIRC the scary hard to do impossible
part is editing the mbox file without messing it up, not exactly rocket
science.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] cause of bounces

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2017-10-19 01:36, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:


(I don't understand Dimitri's claim about SourceForge ads; all the
mail I get from SourceForge is originated there and AFAIK the DKIM
validates.  If it doesn't, their system is pretty brain-damaged.)


It is, but not DKIM-drain-bramaged. I PGP-sign when sending from my 
linux PCs and SF injects their ads into the signed part. hat>Which is part of the reason why they don't want you to sign your 
messages on the client, before they got their ads in.



That depends on how much mail you get, how much of it is unwanted,
how much you care about the time you spend dealing with unwanted mail,
and how much you care about losing wanted mail.


:) How would I know: it got thrown away, I never knew it existed.

Seriously, though, for me gmail is the only one that doesn't deliver 
wanted mail and sticks it into their "all mail" -- despite the blanket 
.forward I have in there. On my work MTA I pretend DMARC doesn't exist 
and I don't spend any more time on spam now than I did in 2007.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] cause of bounces

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/18/2017 04:26 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On 10/18/2017 02:10 PM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
> 
> Do I understand you correctly to mean to create the signature before
> applying transport encoding?
> 
>> Only, you can't do that on the MX, it has to be done on the client.
> 
> Why can't you do it at the MX?

Because the very first $relayhost may apply transport encoding. You have
to compute the hash before that happens.

>> DKIM is designed to produce false positives. Which means DKIM-based
>> tests will have low specificity
>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_and_specificity).
> 
> My experience ~> opinion, save for mailing lists, differs.  In fact,
> most of the email that I receive passes DKIM.

That does not contradict what I said. Low specificity means low
probability of detection of "bad stuff". I.e. it doesn't mean much that
most of it passes.

> I don't think DKIM (or SPF or DMARC) have /anything/ to do with spam
> detection.  SPF is for envelope sender authorization.  DKIM is for
> message integrity.  DMARC is for policy and reporting.  None of that has
> anything to do with spam detection / filtering.

Ohkay, so what exactly am I the end user is supposed to need it for?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] cause of bounces

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/18/2017 02:32 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

> I'm referring to the difference between:
> 
>  - ü  - ASCII (?)
>  - =C3=BC - quoted-printable
>  - w7w=   - base 64
>  -  - HTML
> 
> All four representations are for the *same* letter / character / glyph /
> byte(s).

They are different ASCII representations of the same byte, yes. They are
not the same text. Sign the text, re-encode text and signature together,
anyone who cares about it can decode it back to where the signature will
match. Only, you can't do that on the MX, it has to be done on the client.

> DKIM, by design will fail if anything that is signed changes.

DKIM is designed to produce false positives. Which means DKIM-based
tests will have low specificity
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_and_specificity). Which makes
them bad for detecting spam. But that's OK, DMARC in general is for
*fraudulent* e-mail, not *unsolicited* e-mail.

I'm sure once I'm plagued by *fraudulent* e-mail, I'll start caring
about RFC 7489 and the rest of them. When those e-mail are from mailman
I'll start caring about what mailman does with DMARC headers. But at
this point I'd just strip them all off.

(And since I'm tripping down the memory lane:
https://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/23/21#subj9.1)

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Re: [Mailman-Users] cause of bounces

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/18/2017 01:30 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

> The (decimal) number 17 can be encoded multiple ways:
> 
> 10001 = binary  base  2
>    25 = hex base  6
>    21 = octal   base  8
>    17 = decimal base 10
>    11 = hexadecimal base 16
> 
> All five encoded numbers represent the same value (decimal) 17.

17 == 0x11. "17" != "0x11". Which was precisely the point: if your MTA,
say, does unicodedata.normalize( 'NFKD' ... ), and turns u-umlaut into a
regular "u", you may consider it benign. Many won't. Most importantly,
crypto signature will change, and DKIM check will fail.

Benign is in the eye of the beholder. We're inserting this stuff into a
database where a search for "Wutrich" will find neither "Wütrich" nor
"W\u0308trich" so I wouldn't consider it benign at all.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] cause of bounces

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/18/2017 11:37 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

> I believe I remember (but can't point to) something in the DKIM spec
> that referenced the possibility that the DKIM signature could be broken
> by things as benign as an MTA doing a content transfer encoding
> conversion.  -  I have personally seen this.

Like tnеtсоnsulting.nеt being a benign minor encoding change in a couple
of characters?

Just because the authors of the RFC have also chosen to stick the square
peg in the round hole doesn't make the hole any less round, nor the peg
any less square.

Somewhere I've a 10-year old e-mail from Whit Diffie explaining how SSL
was a PR solution to a marketing problem. So this kind of
problem-finding and problem-solving has made to SMTP RFCs now, colour me
shocked.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] cause of bounces

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/17/2017 05:36 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

> /me wonders what color Dimitri's hat is.  ;-)  #knowtheyenemy

I've a "tactical foliage green" kufiah, best five bucks I ever spent on
an article of clothing.

The point was that SPF will flag messages with ineptly spoofed From
addresses, and I don't seem to see any of those anymore.

As for DKIM, say you proved that the message was altered after the
postmaster@yourdomain was done with it. Now what? Depending on how you
look at it, the standard says either
- now pretend you don't know if it was altered (in your interpretation:
"maliciously") or not, or
- (in Mark's version) assume anything not signed is malicious and invalid.
I strongly dislike either alternative.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] cause of bounces

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/17/2017 04:40 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On 10/17/2017 03:22 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> Agreed, but the above imply NOT RFC 5322 compliant.
> 
> Please elaborate, if you're referring to more than From: vs Sent-By:.
> 
>> In other words, an invalid DKIM signature SHOULD be treated no
>> differently from no signature.
> 
> Fair enough. 

Why? If this message doesn't match its signature, then it has been
altered in transit for sure. If were not signed, like when I post from
home (because I can't be arsed to set gpg up on winderz), then there's
no telling if it was or wasn't. One of those things is quite a bit not
like the other.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] cause of bounces

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/17/2017 11:10 AM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:

>  - I *STRONGLY* feel that mailing lists / forwarders / etc are email
> endpoints.  Many of them generate new messages with content based on the
> incoming content.  -  Thus it is perfectly acceptable to do all of the
> above /because/ it is a /new/ and /different/ message.

+1

> Sure, /someone's/ server sent a message to Mike, possibly claiming to be
> from me.  But it was *NOT* /from/ me or my server.  Thus, the message is
> bogus and /should/ be treated as such.

If these actually exist, my spamassassin has been delivering to
/dev/null for quite some time now. My impression is they largely died
off, possibly thanks to adoption of SPF.

Now it is much easier and cheaper to send spam from botnets of perfectly
legitimate pwn3d peecees. Or to anonymously register a perfectly valid
domain (e.g. tnеtсоnsulting.net -- there's 3 "language-specific script"
chars in there), add all the DMARC embellishments, and send perfectly
compliant spam as gtaylor from there.

For bonus points, pay with stolen credit card number and have your spam
campaign all done by the time visa fraud department calls you domain
registar.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] cause of bounces

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2017-10-16 23:27, mailbox.org wrote:

Thank you Steve!

Now I understand it is not all bad. Just the way that AOIL and YAHOO went about 
it (or something like that).


It's not bad, only it's mostly useless for human people like you and I. 
What good it does is mostly for google-person and yahoo-person and their 
kind.


Dima
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Re: [Mailman-Users] cause of bounces

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/10/2017 05:10 PM, p...@tokyoprogressive.org wrote:

>> Can you give me your opinion. Is it Yahoo that is breaking mailing lists, or 
>> is it Yahoo, Gmail and Hotmail?

All of the above.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Django

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/03/2017 10:56 AM, Keith Seyffarth wrote:
>>> One thing to be said for Django is that at least it doesn't pull in PHP.
>>
>> You have to admit though, php scripts from 10 years ago still work.
> 
> Well, not all of them... Some things have been deprecated, and some odd
> work-arounds for shortcomings no longer behave the way they did because
> bugs have been corrected or loopholes closed.

Oh, come on. It was just a snark.

RedHat in particular is notorious for patching their RPMs without
bumping major version numbers. That's how they provide their "stable API
platform". As a result your PHP may report it's at version X, but the
actual bugfixes and security features are from version Z.a.svn13378337.
Go figure out which fine manual you need to read to figure out what
incompatible improvements you couldn't live without all these years your
PHP installation has today.

Film at 11.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Django

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2017-10-03 10:01, Phil Stracchino wrote:


One thing to be said for Django is that at least it doesn't pull in PHP.


You have to admit though, php scripts from 10 years ago still work.

Dima

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/02/2017 02:54 PM, tlhackque via Mailman-Users wrote:
...
> From your comments on this thread, Mailman V3 will not (yet) meet your
> expectations.

Mailman 3 doesn't seem to be available from my distro vendor.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/02/2017 02:50 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 10/02/2017 12:22 PM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
...
>>> Sep 25 15:53:57 2017 (7782) <mailman.0.1506372716.29657.XXX@XXX> smtp to 
>>> XXX for 1 recips, completed in 0.081 seconds
>> ...
>>> Sep 25 15:59:06 2017 (7782) <mailman.2.1506373144.7778.XXX@XXX> smtp to XXX 
>>> for 1 recips, completed in 0.061 seconds
> 
> OK. So the bulk of the mail was delivered to Postfix in a bit over 5
> minutes. That seem quite reasonable. I clearly misunderstood what you
> ment when you said mail was still going out after days.

Mea culpa, but that's why I had to ask here. Before you guys clued me in
on which mailman logs meant what, my best bet was looking at postfix
log. In there, however, you would see the messages deferred and being
retried by postfix. There's message to at least one of these addresses
still being retried (or was, back when I said "mail's still going out"),
but I couldn't tell when it came out of mailman without much backtracking.

> Some of these may be retries of temp fails from Postfix (anything in
> smtp-failure?) and some may be unrelated.

One failure logged in that time, to one of these addresses, and that's
only an invalid address that got past the regexp I used to clean up the
list.

> Yes, it is 'academic' but a deeper understanding of the processes
> involved can't hurt. I'm compulsive (often too much so) about answering
> every outstanding question, even if they are only my own questions.

:) I find I often don't wanna know.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/02/2017 01:16 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

> (My car is a great car
> but won't carry 500kg of cargo, so I don't ask it to.)

Well I bet your car comes with a manual that says what its max cargo
capacity is. Could you point me at The Fine Manual for mailman where it
says how many addresses I can subscribe through the web interface?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/02/2017 02:19 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> And "abort the running op because my browser timed out" is not Mailman's
> doing. That's your web server and its CGI interface.

Oh, I agree: mailman worked exactly as designed. Whoever designed that
particular assumed it'll take zero time to process an uploaded list of
an unknown size, and that did precisely what ass-u-me always does. No
surprises there, unfortunately.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/02/2017 01:10 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> You need to look in Mailman's 'smtp' log to see how much time is being
> taken to deliver to postfix. 

Close to .1 s, with an occasional .12 on the date in question.

> One big killer in delivery from Mailman to
> Postfix is recipient address validation at smtpd time. I.e., you don't
> want reject_unknown_recipient_domain in smtpd_recipient_restrictions.

:) Well I do actually, this being our mail gateway, but I get the point.
The more reason to outsource this to out university's IT instead of
running it locally.

> Also, you don't need spamd scanning of Mailman's outbound mail as list
> posts will have been scanned on input.
> 
> Whatever the reason, you won't be able to run a viable list if it takes
> days to deliver 3500 messages. Even an hour would be excessive.

Of course it's not scanning outbound mail, but it is scanning the
incoming on delivery, using up cycles and i/o.

/var/log/mailman/smtp is interesting, actually:

> Sep 25 15:53:57 2017 (7782) <mailman.0.1506372716.29657.XXX@XXX> smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.081 seconds
...
> Sep 25 15:59:06 2017 (7782) <mailman.2.1506373144.7778.XXX@XXX> smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.061 seconds
> Sep 25 16:48:39 2017 (7782) <mailman.2.1506376117.7779.XXX@XXX> smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.065 seconds
> Sep 25 19:03:16 2017 (7782) <mailman.3.1506384195.7778.XXX@XXX> smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.079 seconds
> Sep 25 19:33:19 2017 (7782) <mailman.4.1506385998.7778.XXX@XXX> smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.069 seconds
> Sep 26 01:14:46 2017 (7782) <mailman.0.1506406484.11544.XXX@XXX> smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.062 seconds
> Sep 26 12:12:45 2017 (7782) <mailman.3.1506445964.7779.XXX@XXX> smtp to XXX 
> for 1 recips, completed in 0.060 seconds

There's 3200 of these lines total, so at .1s/address it should've ran in
320 seconds. Instead it ran for 6 minutes, then hours later a message or
two for a while, and nothing after Sep 26 12:12:45.

/var/log/mailman/subscribe goes

> Sep 25 15:51:56 2017 (29657) XXX: new aaa@ADDR, admin mass sub

to

> Sep 25 15:53:56 2017 (29657) XXX: new jjj@ADDR, admin mass sub

and ends there. To my uneducated eye it looks like smtp transactions
haven't even started until the subscription's gone about halfway through
and presumably aborted.

Anyway, this is getting academic. What I wanted to know was is it dead
or is it still doing something behind the scenes, and I got the answer.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2017-10-01 17:50, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On October 1, 2017 3:34:29 PM PDT, Dimitri Maziuk <dmaz...@bmrb.wisc.edu> wrote:



So I don't get it, are you saying that is *was* aborted after the CGI
timed out?


Yes.


OK, thanks. Now I get to draft 3,500 apologies and then resubscribe 
everyone except the couple of people who replied with "please stop".


PS there is nothing except postfix, spamd, mailman, and apache serving 
mailman's interface running on this server. It' running at load avg of 
0.0 on 24 cores in 128GB of RAM. AFAICT the only reason for the software 
to croak on the list that size is its own coding.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2017-10-01 22:23, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

On 9/29/2017 11:34 AM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:

(mailman 2.1.12 on centos 6.9)


I don't think that Mark mentioned it, but 2.1.12 is -painfully- old (as 
is centos 6.9) and centos packages often lag way behind the 
corresponding source versions.


If you need to stick with 6.9, I would consider ditching the centos 
package and installing the current mailman from source. Otherwise, can 
you move to a more modern Linux and more recent mailman?


Mailman's been been trouble- and maintenance-free for us since we 
switched from whatever-that-perl-thing-was-called all those years ago, 
and it never occurred to me it'd something as silly as abort the running 
op because my browser timed out. Now that I know, I'll consider 
"upgrading" -- to the university-run lyris: I might as well outsource 
the whole thing.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 10/01/2017 04:55 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> The log entries were written as Mailman did the subscribes and sent the
> welcomes, but those subscriptions were lost when the process aborted
> before finishing. No more subscriptions are currently being done.

So I don't get it, are you saying that is *was* aborted after the CGI
timed out?

Or are you following on my "if something happens to interrupt it"? -- it
was a hypothetical question about checkpointing and keeping state during
long long-running tasks.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 09/30/2017 05:19 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 09/30/2017 02:31 PM, Dimitri Maziuk wrote:
..
> It's in progress as far as you're concerned, but not as far as Mailman
> is concerned. As far as Mailman is concerned, some users were sent
> welcome messages, but no one has been subscribed. End of story.
...
>> I assume it does save state internally and the process will be resumed
>> if interrupted?
...
> Wrong. You have to start over. Nothing is saved from the first attempt.
> The process died and the state was restored to the last known good state
> which is before anyone was subscribed.

So anything goes wrong, everybody got the welcome spam but nobody got
subscribed. People who get the welcome messages (up to "j" now) and
click on the unsubscribe link get an error. For another week or so,
judging by what I can work out from the postfix logs -- because there's
no other place to look. I wish I found any of it surprising. Sadly I've
been dealing with software (including my own) for too long for that.
Situation normal, moving along.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 09/30/2017 11:47 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
>> Question: what is mailman actually doing?g?
> 
> Look in /usr/local/mailman/logs/* /var/spool/mqueue/
> or whatever your local equivalent paths are

It's /var/log/mailman/subscribe in this case, thank you, but it shows
 "new mail@addr, admin mass sub"
for addrs from a to j up to Sep 25. (I sorted the list before upload and
it goes all the way to z.) Postfix log shows welcome e-mails still going
out as of an hour ago.

So it looks like mailman updates its logs only a little more often then
it updates its configs.

Going through postfix log trying to spot an address that looks like it
may be from the list is rather inconvenient.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Dimitri Maziuk]

On 2017-09-30 13:15, Mark Sapiro wrote:


The process is
subscribing the members one at a time. This will send a welcome as each
user is subscribed, but the updated list configuration is not saved
until the process is complete. Thus, if it's interrupted prior to
completion, the list is not actually updated and no one is subscribed.


But the welcome messages have been sent so interrupting it and 
re-running with smaller address chunks will have some people receive the 
welcome message twice. I'd like to avoid that.



It's done. Nothing is "in progress".


I am not asking about the web interface. I am assuming that 
bin/add_members will also "subscribe the members one at a time" and my 
definition of "in progress" is they are not all subscribed yet. AFAICT 
nothing is done until they are -- this is the point. If mailman was 
updating the membership list one subscriber at a time, I wouldn't have 
asked. BTW bin/list_members isn't showing anything as "done" yet, by my 
definition of "done", either.


That said, the part about subscribing them one at a time but not 
updating list configuration until all is done is what I wanted to 
confirm, thank you.


I assume it does save state internally and the process will be resumed 
if interrupted? (E.g. disk crash, power loss, PFY decides to update the 
kernel and reboot because they didn't get the memo?)


Thanks again,
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[Mailman-Users] bulk subscribe 7K users

[Dimitri Maziuk]

Hi all,

a few days ago I made a mistake (?) of uploading a list of ~7000
addresses into the "bulk subscribe" box. None of them made it into the
subscriber list, but at least some of the welcome e-mails went out.

Question: what is mailman actually doing? Is it waiting for all the
retries and bounces before it updates the subscriber list? Or has it
failed and I need to re-do the whole thing?

I see some of those addresses in the logs so it looks like it's the
former. If it is, is there any way to monitor mailman's progress?

(mailman 2.1.12 on centos 6.9)

Thanks in advance,
-- 
Dimitri Maziuk
Programmer/sysadmin
BioMagResBank, UW-Madison -- http://www.bmrb.wisc.edu



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