Re: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-08 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Jordan Brown writes:

 > Alas, no.  I've seen too many messages intended to be private sent to
 > the entire list with that configuration; I would never use it.

Good for you!  I'm sorry that means that the suggestion is useless to
you, though.

Steve
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-07 Thread Jordan Brown 
On 8/6/2017 11:36 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Unfortunately, you can assume that the large freemail services do not
> care what you think.

Yep.

50% :-)
50% :-(

> I'm not sure why they've all gone substantially
> downhill in the last decade, but they have.  Probably they get
> complaints and feel they have to "do something, anything" about them.

Sometimes I think they're trying to drive everybody to Facebook.

> That said, I don't know if it's a useful option for you, but one
> possibility would be to set reply-to to the list as well as using one
> of the munge_from settings.  Because munge_from has the effect of
> hiding the author's address, it also places the author's address in
> the reply-to, even if the list is already there.

Alas, no.  I've seen too many messages intended to be private sent to
the entire list with that configuration; I would never use it.  (I've
boycotted lists simply because they insisted on that configuration.)

Thanks.

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-07 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Jordan Brown writes:

 > What I'm objecting to is the fact that it hunts down *other* instances
 > of the address in From and removes them (or perhaps replaces them with
 > the Reply-To and then eliminates duplicates).  I think Reply-All should
 > take {Reply-To, else From}, To, and CC, and reply to them.

Unfortunately, you can assume that the large freemail services do not
care what you think.  I'm not sure why they've all gone substantially
downhill in the last decade, but they have.  Probably they get
complaints and feel they have to "do something, anything" about them.

That said, I don't know if it's a useful option for you, but one
possibility would be to set reply-to to the list as well as using one
of the munge_from settings.  Because munge_from has the effect of
hiding the author's address, it also places the author's address in
the reply-to, even if the list is already there.

Steve

-- 
Associate Professor  Division of Policy and Planning Science
http://turnbull/sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/ Faculty of Systems and Information
Email: turnb...@sk.tsukuba.ac.jp   University of Tsukuba
Tel: 029-853-5175 Tennodai 1-1-1, Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-04 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 08/04/2017 07:30 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> 
> What I'm objecting to is the fact that it hunts down *other* instances
> of the address in From and removes them (or perhaps replaces them with
> the Reply-To and then eliminates duplicates).  I think Reply-All should
> take {Reply-To, else From}, To, and CC, and reply to them.


I agree that what you think would be reasonable and what people
generally expect, but what RFC 5322 says is

  Note: Some mail applications have automatic reply commands that
  include the destination addresses of the original message in the
  destination addresses of the reply.  How those reply commands
  behave is implementation dependent and is beyond the scope of this
  document.  In particular, whether or not to include the original
  destination addresses when the original message had a "Reply-To:"
  field is not addressed here.

Which basically says that whatever the specific MUA does with reply-all
when there is a Reply-To: is not addressed by the standard and is up to
the implementer, so while you and I may not like the behavior of
outlook/hotmail in this case, we can't say it is non-compliant.

As an aside, you don't want to convince me that this behavior is wrong,
because you'd like me to do something in Mailman to make this reply-all
behavior work as expected, but I'm not interested in kludging Mailman to
accommodate broken MUAs.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-04 Thread Jordan Brown 
On 8/4/2017 2:32 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> My theory is that MS is (wrongly) dropping the "To" copy of list1 from
>> the reply because it's the From, and then (correctly) using the Reply-To
>> instead of the From.
> It looks to me as if your theory is correct, except I wouldn't say
> "wrongly". I think an MUA is arguably doing the right thing by
> overriding the From: address with the Reply-To: address on a reply-all
> even though the From: address is also in To:.

It should certainly override the From with the Reply-To.

What I'm objecting to is the fact that it hunts down *other* instances
of the address in From and removes them (or perhaps replaces them with
the Reply-To and then eliminates duplicates).  I think Reply-All should
take {Reply-To, else From}, To, and CC, and reply to them.

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-04 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 08/04/2017 01:35 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> On 8/4/2017 12:51 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> I'm aware of issues with Microsoft services adding 'spoofing' warnings
>> to messages where the From: address and the To: address are the same.
>> Is this what you were referring to by "Setting it to the list name
>> interacts badly with outloook.com and hotmail.com replies." in your
>> OP. If not that, then what?
> 
> I haven't investigated deeply, but with an original message like:


Thanks for the info.


> Return-Path: 
> Return-path: 
> Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 19:44:35 + (UTC)
> To: list2 , 
>   list1 
> Subject: [list1] ...
> X-BeenThere: li...@listdomain.org
> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23
> Precedence: list
> List-Id: "list1" 
> List-Unsubscribe: 
> , 
>   
> List-Post: 
> List-Help: 
> List-Subscribe: 
> ,
>   
> From: Jane User via list1 
> Reply-To: Jane User 
> Errors-To: list1-boun...@listdomain.org
> Sender: "list1" 
> 
> Two of my users (on outlook.com and hotmail.com) ended up with
> reply-to-all results that were addressed to Joe User and list2, but not
> to list1 at all.  ...

> My theory is that MS is (wrongly) dropping the "To" copy of list1 from
> the reply because it's the From, and then (correctly) using the Reply-To
> instead of the From.


It looks to me as if your theory is correct, except I wouldn't say
"wrongly". I think an MUA is arguably doing the right thing by
overriding the From: address with the Reply-To: address on a reply-all
even though the From: address is also in To:.

I agree that this is an issue because without From: munging the message
would be From: Jane User  and presumably reply-all
would go to Jane and both lists in To:.

Here's what I say in the code

> # MAS: We need to do some things with the original From: if we've munged
> # it for DMARC mitigation.  We have goals for this process which are
> # not completely compatible, so we do the best we can.  Our goals are:
> # 1) as long as the list is not anonymous, the original From: address
> #should be obviously exposed, i.e. not just in a header that MUAs
> #don't display.
> # 2) the original From: address should not be in a comment or display
> #name in the new From: because it is claimed that multiple domains
> #in any fields in From: are indicative of spamminess.  This means
> #it should be in Reply-To: or Cc:.
> # 3) the behavior of an MUA doing a 'reply' or 'reply all' should be
> #consistent regardless of whether or not the From: is munged.
> # Goal 3) implies sometimes the original From: should be in Reply-To:
> # and sometimes in Cc:, and even so, this goal won't be achieved in
> # all cases with all MUAs.  In cases of conflict, the above ordering of
> # goals is priority order.

Clearly in this case with these MUAs we don't meet Goal 3) and this
falls into "even so, this goal won't be achieved in all cases with all
MUAs."

I think it might be possible to munge the address to
no_re...@example.com instead of listn...@example.com in all cases of
From: munging. I have to consider all the possible consequences of this,
or as many as I can think of, before actually doing it.

One issue that comes to mind immediately is when the original From: goes
in Cc:. This is when the Reply-To: is munged to be the list address and
is done so that "reply" goes only to the list and "reply-all" includes
the original From:. In this case, "reply-all" may (arguably wrongly, but
still ...) include the no_reply address which is bad.

I'm inclined to leave it as is for now, but I'll continue to think about it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-04 Thread Jordan Brown 
On 8/4/2017 12:51 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> I'm aware of issues with Microsoft services adding 'spoofing' warnings
> to messages where the From: address and the To: address are the same.
> Is this what you were referring to by "Setting it to the list name
> interacts badly with outloook.com and hotmail.com replies." in your
> OP. If not that, then what?

I haven't investigated deeply, but with an original message like:

Return-Path: 
Return-path: 
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 19:44:35 + (UTC)
To: list2 , 
list1 
Subject: [list1] ...
X-BeenThere: li...@listdomain.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23
Precedence: list
List-Id: "list1" 
List-Unsubscribe: 
, 

List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: 
,

From: Jane User via list1 
Reply-To: Jane User 
Errors-To: list1-boun...@listdomain.org
Sender: "list1" 

Two of my users (on outlook.com and hotmail.com) ended up with
reply-to-all results that were addressed to Joe User and list2, but not
to list1 at all.  (Note that this reply came to me via list2.)

Return-Path: 
Return-path: 
To: Troop 92 list2 , Jane User

Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 20:27:29 +
Subject: Re: [list2] [list1] ...
X-BeenThere: li...@listdomain.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23
Precedence: list
List-Id: list2 
List-Unsubscribe: 
, 

List-Post: 
List-Help: 
List-Subscribe: 
, 

From: Susan MsUser via list2 
Reply-To: Susan MsUser 
Errors-To: list2-boun...@listdomain.org
Sender: "list2" 

My theory is that MS is (wrongly) dropping the "To" copy of list1 from
the reply because it's the From, and then (correctly) using the Reply-To
instead of the From.
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-04 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 08/04/2017 10:15 AM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> On 8/4/2017 8:24 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> On 08/03/2017 07:15 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
>>> Is there a way to control the From value when it gets munged so we pass
>>> DMARC?
>> There's no configuration for it, but it's a simple patch.
> 
> Thanks.  Alas, I'm a hosting-provider customer, not standalone, and so
> don't have access to make source changes.  Maybe it can go on the wish list?


You could submit a request at
 or for Mailman 3, at
, but It's unlikely that
anything will be done, at least for 2.1.

For Mailman 2.1, I see two ways to do this. The easy way is to create an
mm_cfg.py setting with which one could specify 'xxx' to be added to the
address as in listname-...@example.com.  This wouldn't help you and
other hosting provider customers however as the hosts would almost
certainly not change the default.

The alternative of making it a list setting is more work as it affects
the web admin UI and the translations thereof.

Also, with either method, forward porting to MM 3 is an additional
consideration.

I'm aware of issues with Microsoft services adding 'spoofing' warnings
to messages where the From: address and the To: address are the same. Is
this what you were referring to by "Setting it to the list name
interacts badly with outloook.com and hotmail.com replies." in your OP.
If not that, then what?

In any case, if these issues become more problematic, we'll probably
have to do something, but what, I don't know.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-04 Thread Jordan Brown 
On 8/4/2017 8:24 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 08/03/2017 07:15 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
>> Is there a way to control the From value when it gets munged so we pass
>> DMARC?
> There's no configuration for it, but it's a simple patch.

Thanks.  Alas, I'm a hosting-provider customer, not standalone, and so
don't have access to make source changes.  Maybe it can go on the wish list?

> I suspect that this would cause other issues. In spite of the fact that
> there will always be a Reply-To: header with some value, there will be
> some user's MUAs that will include the From: address in a 'reply' or
> 'reply-all'. This may or may not be a problem depending on the exact
> content of the reply, the setting of DISCARD_MESSAGE_WITH_NO_COMMAND
> (defaults to Yes), and whether the MUA addresses the reply to the
> desired addresses in addition to From:.

It seems like that could be controlled through the choice of the address
used.  Although the -request address seems obvious, one could also use
the -owner address, or an address that bounces or leads into a black
hole.  Let the admin specify the address to use.

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-04 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 08/04/2017 07:52 AM, Adam Goldberg wrote:
> General Options, select "Munge From".
> 
> [cid:image001.png@01D30D0F.C2588CD0]


Your screen shot was removed by content filtering, however a few comments:

It is usually preferable to use the more selective Privacy options... ->
Sender filters -> dmarc_moderation_action setting rather than the
General Options -> from_is_list setting.

The OP was not asking how to enable From: munging. He was asking how to
change the address in the munged From: to something other than the list
posting address.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-04 Thread Adam Goldberg 
General Options, select "Munge From".

[cid:image001.png@01D30D0F.C2588CD0]





Adam Goldberg

AGP, LLC

+1-202-507-9900





-Original Message-
From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+adam=agp-llc@python.org] 
On Behalf Of Jordan Brown
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2017 10:15 PM
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?



Is there a way to control the From value when it gets munged so we pass DMARC?



Setting it to the list name interacts badly with outloook.com and hotmail.com 
replies.  Since the From address really isn't used (because there's a 
Reply-To), it seems like it could be anything that's at the host domain - the 
request address, for instance.



Thanks.





--

Mailman-Users mailing list 
Mailman-Users@python.org<mailto:Mailman-Users@python.org> 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users

Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: 
http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/

Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/adam%40agp-llc.com
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-04 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 08/03/2017 07:15 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> Is there a way to control the From value when it gets munged so we pass
> DMARC?


There's no configuration for it, but it's a simple patch. The exact
patch depends on what version you have. In Mailman 2.1.18, the code is
around line 133 and is

> change_header('From',
>   formataddr(('%s via %s' % (realname, mlist.real_name),
>  mlist.GetListEmail())),
>   mlist, msg, msgdata)

In 2.1.24 it is around line 187 and is

> change_header('From',
>   formataddr((dn, mlist.GetListEmail())),
>   mlist, msg, msgdata)


To make the address be the list-request address for example, you'd
change mlist.GetListEmail() to mlist.getListAddress('request').

I suspect that this would cause other issues. In spite of the fact that
there will always be a Reply-To: header with some value, there will be
some user's MUAs that will include the From: address in a 'reply' or
'reply-all'. This may or may not be a problem depending on the exact
content of the reply, the setting of DISCARD_MESSAGE_WITH_NO_COMMAND
(defaults to Yes), and whether the MUA addresses the reply to the
desired addresses in addition to From:.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

[Mailman-Users] Customize "From" when munging it for DMARC?

2017-08-04 Thread Jordan Brown 
Is there a way to control the From value when it gets munged so we pass
DMARC?

Setting it to the list name interacts badly with outloook.com and
hotmail.com replies.  Since the From address really isn't used (because
there's a Reply-To), it seems like it could be anything that's at the
host domain - the request address, for instance.

Thanks.


--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org