Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Michael Wise via mailop]

I gather that there are technical reasons, and I think I understand them all 
(per country/region partition of mailboxes and such), but am not certain.

Again, it's a hack; I'm not happy with it personally, but that's the way it 
apparently was designed, and that for cause.
Huge mail systems frequently don't work the way we normal mortals would 
intuitively expect them to.

I gather it's now being discussed in some depth if there's not a better way of 
doing this, but it's not my call.

Suffice it to say the complaint has been heard.

Aloha,
Michael.
-- 
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool ?

-Original Message-
From: SM [mailto:s...@elandnews.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 12:39 PM
To: Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com>; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

Hi Michael,
At 12:20 PM 24-01-2018, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:
>Hack: an in-elegant solution that one personally doesn't like, but that 
>appears to work.
>
>As to the retry interval, I feel a bit out of my depth on that one, and 
>I guess it all depends on exactly WHY the 452 was thrown, but ... the 
>implication seems to be that an immediate retry (maybe give it a few 
>seconds?) would be the preferred way to handle it, maybe with some sort 
>of exponential back-off?

The "immediate retry" could be read as "immediate".  From a receiver's 
perspective, that does not sound like a good idea.  Why would the receiver's 
implementation require segmented delivery?

Regards,
-sm 


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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Michael Wise via mailop]

Yes, it's not volume related.
That was the original intent of the code, but.

And later for values of immediately.
I gather that was the original intent of the RFC as well.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?

From: King, Brad [mailto:brad.k...@team.telstra.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 1:46 PM
To: Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com>; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: RE: Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

Thanks for the response Michael.

As I seen this with a message with 3 Hotmail recipients, would it be fair to 
say, that this is not related to volume? That is if we send to 2 recipients 
that happen to be in different regions the second recipient will be rejected 
with 452, to be retried later?

Rgs,

Brad


From: Michael Wise [mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, 25 January 2018 6:33 AM
To: King, Brad <brad.k...@team.telstra.com<mailto:brad.k...@team.telstra.com>>; 
mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: RE: Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses


Much internal discussion, but ...
Apparently ...

" 452 is a special error code (per RFC) that instructs the sending MTA to retry 
the rejected recipients immediately.
" it is designed to split messages with a large number of recipients.

Apparently that's not exactly what we're using it for, but there you go.
In theory, one or more of the recipients would deliver, and the first one to a 
different region would get this response, and then the next try for the 
remaining ... should deliver.
Unless there's more than two other zones, in which case it's now an N-1 
problem, and ... Lather, Rinse, Repeat until Done.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdownload%2Fdetails.aspx%3Fid%3D18275=02%7C01%7CMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7Cbff9ecb9168d4f3e4b4508d56373d717%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636524271560356293=EtDKAldJdG%2Bb86wiVODkVyH5vzmDT%2FSgOXRSDvCr1Hs%3D=0>
 ?

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of King, Brad
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 5:02 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

Hi,

We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error:

452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 
[CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com]

Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail 
recipients.

Rgs,

Brad


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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[King, Brad]

Thanks for the response Michael.

As I seen this with a message with 3 Hotmail recipients, would it be fair to 
say, that this is not related to volume? That is if we send to 2 recipients 
that happen to be in different regions the second recipient will be rejected 
with 452, to be retried later?

Rgs,

Brad


From: Michael Wise [mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, 25 January 2018 6:33 AM
To: King, Brad <brad.k...@team.telstra.com>; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: RE: Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses


Much internal discussion, but ...
Apparently ...

" 452 is a special error code (per RFC) that instructs the sending MTA to retry 
the rejected recipients immediately.
" it is designed to split messages with a large number of recipients.

Apparently that's not exactly what we're using it for, but there you go.
In theory, one or more of the recipients would deliver, and the first one to a 
different region would get this response, and then the next try for the 
remaining ... should deliver.
Unless there's more than two other zones, in which case it's now an N-1 
problem, and ... Lather, Rinse, Repeat until Done.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of King, Brad
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 5:02 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

Hi,

We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error:

452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 
[CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com]

Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail 
recipients.

Rgs,

Brad


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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[SM]

Hi Michael,
At 12:20 PM 24-01-2018, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:
Hack: an in-elegant solution that one personally doesn't like, but 
that appears to work.


As to the retry interval, I feel a bit out of my depth on that one, 
and I guess it all depends on exactly WHY the 452 was thrown, but 
... the implication seems to be that an immediate retry (maybe give 
it a few seconds?) would be the preferred way to handle it, maybe 
with some sort of exponential back-off?


The "immediate retry" could be read as "immediate".  From a 
receiver's perspective, that does not sound like a good idea.  Why 
would the receiver's implementation require segmented delivery?


Regards,
-sm 



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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Anne P. Mitchell Esq.]

 
> 
>  
> And as a follow-up, eyeballs have been successfully attracted.

Michael, you *totally* rock; you are *very* appreciated!

Anne

Anne P. Mitchell, 
Attorney at Law
CEO/President, 
SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification and Inbox Delivery Assistance
http://www.SuretyMail.com/
http://www.SuretyMail.eu/

Attorney at Law / Legislative Consultant
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook
Legal Counsel: The CyberGreen Institute
Legal Counsel: The Earth Law Center
Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
Member, Board of Directors, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
Member, Advisory Board, Cause for Awareness
Member, Elevations Credit Union Member Council
Former Chair, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose

Available for consultations by special arrangement.
amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell


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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Michael Wise via mailop]

And as a follow-up, eyeballs have been successfully attracted.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Wise via 
mailop
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:57 AM
To: Benjamin BILLON <bbil...@splio.com>; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses


Thanks for the kind words.

The below noted errors have been added to the list.
Again, the 452 should be an immediate retry… not so sure about the 451s and 
421s.
By definition, 4xx codes are, “Please Retry” and classically the retry interval 
is MTA specific.

Still … weird. Needs to attract eyeballs.
Working the issues.
Thanks!

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdownload%2Fdetails.aspx%3Fid%3D18275=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C9f8596c18a5e4edb516808d56365b396%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636524210817679661=UZFa%2FHdNxLRxBbxKXRsqiiedrRYHw72Cv0lh3q3rZro%3D=0>
 ?

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin BILLON
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:37 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

Although indeed comical, I think we should all appreciate the level of details 
we have access to. It’s the kind of transparency which can help solve issues 
faster.

--
Benjamin

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Emre Üst 
|euro.message|
Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2018 17:47
To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

Hi Brad,
We are seeing lots of temporary errors ;

the funniest error is;

**  Error: "452 4.3.1 Insufficient system resources 
(UsedVersionBuckets[D:\Queue]) 
[AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FAM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182=WG%2F%2BskHDc0AB298aFpLtsREesRqdqSC1JIIfDq8EYTg%3D=0>]
 
[AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FAM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182=GDu0cGDFd5KXo3Vef2qeNWkOG7G5nVGkHrva4IhPmYQ%3D=0>]"
 while connected from 
eg-c-5-031.euromsg.net<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Feg-c-5-031.euromsg.net=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182=EwXrvJ9ZNKWwhdMsz7dfaqWiX9uYmX3sT6tV7%2FQ96cw%3D=0>
 (185.11.212.31) to 
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182=HLklzMQNX93xlsgUrw%2FVFhmGDZ6w015lnT7g2u82N60%3D=0>
 (104.47.8.33)   *


Error: "451 4.4.0 Message failed to be made redundant due to A shadow copy was 
required but failed to be made with an AckStatus of Retry 
[DB5EUR03HT243.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FDB5EUR03HT243.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182=OpzZCawAM09TuaEe7X2pWfYlwnDkWiKNLrSG6j2SyWw%3D=0>]
 
[DB5EUR03FT029.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FDB5EUR03FT029.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182=SvLPTvr6pWmiGwH0CUvK03FAv4czGGlfGxKdZ4lJOh8%3D=0>]"
 while connected from ) to 
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182=HLklzMQNX93xlsgUrw%2FVFhmGDZ6w015lnT7g2u82N60%3D=0>
 (104.47.10.33)

SMTP service unavailable: "421 4.4.1 Connection timed out. Total session 
duration:

Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Michael Wise via mailop]

Hack: an in-elegant solution that one personally doesn't like, but that appears 
to work.



As to the retry interval, I feel a bit out of my depth on that one, and I guess 
it all depends on exactly WHY the 452 was thrown, but ... the implication seems 
to be that an immediate retry (maybe give it a few seconds?) would be the 
preferred way to handle it, maybe with some sort of exponential back-off?

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Steve Atkins
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:49 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses





> On Jan 24, 2018, at 11:32 AM, Michael Wise via mailop 
> <mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:

>

>

> Much internal discussion, but …

> Apparently …

>

> “ 452 is a special error code (per RFC) that instructs the sending MTA to 
> retry the rejected recipients immediately.

> “ it is designed to split messages with a large number of recipients.



https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftools.wordtothewise.com%2Frfc%2F5321%23section-4.5.3.1.9=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C246f18f9638c4425e1c708d56364f4f5%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636524207624695015=bvELqPvQEBM35wzj7XjKoGvFnVR8cDJ5TMAVBc2Syzc%3D=0



Not exactly compliant, but I guess it's a reasonable hack.



>  Apparently that’s not exactly what we’re using it for, but there you go.

> In theory, one or more of the recipients would deliver, and the first one to 
> a different region would get this response, and then the next try for the 
> remaining … should deliver.

> Unless there’s more than two other zones, in which case it’s now an N-1 
> problem, and … Lather, Rinse, Repeat until Done.



Seems like it should work, in that a compliant sending MTA should retry with 
some deliveries potentially delayed.



Should smarthosts be scheduling delivery attempts that get a 452 in response to 
RCPT TO for immediate retry, or is that a bit risky?



Cheers,

  Steve







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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Steve Atkins]

> On Jan 24, 2018, at 11:32 AM, Michael Wise via mailop  
> wrote:
> 
>  
> Much internal discussion, but …
> Apparently …
>  
> “ 452 is a special error code (per RFC) that instructs the sending MTA to 
> retry the rejected recipients immediately.
> “ it is designed to split messages with a large number of recipients.

http://tools.wordtothewise.com/rfc/5321#section-4.5.3.1.9

Not exactly compliant, but I guess it's a reasonable hack.

>  Apparently that’s not exactly what we’re using it for, but there you go.
> In theory, one or more of the recipients would deliver, and the first one to 
> a different region would get this response, and then the next try for the 
> remaining … should deliver.
> Unless there’s more than two other zones, in which case it’s now an N-1 
> problem, and … Lather, Rinse, Repeat until Done.

Seems like it should work, in that a compliant sending MTA should retry with 
some deliveries potentially delayed.

Should smarthosts be scheduling delivery attempts that get a 452 in response to 
RCPT TO for immediate retry, or is that a bit risky?

Cheers,
  Steve



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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Graeme Fowler]

On 24 Jan 2018, at 19:32, Michael Wise via mailop  wrote:
> In theory, one or more of the recipients would deliver, and the first one to 
> a different region would get this response, and then the next try for the 
> remaining … should deliver.

This is functionally identical behaviour to Google’s “mixed domain” deferrals - 
seen when sending to (for example) gmail.com and a hosted GSuite domain in the 
same transaction. Deferred recipients are retried, per protocol, until they’ve 
all delivered.

Graeme
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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Michael Wise via mailop]

Much internal discussion, but ...
Apparently ...

" 452 is a special error code (per RFC) that instructs the sending MTA to retry 
the rejected recipients immediately.
" it is designed to split messages with a large number of recipients.

Apparently that's not exactly what we're using it for, but there you go.
In theory, one or more of the recipients would deliver, and the first one to a 
different region would get this response, and then the next try for the 
remaining ... should deliver.
Unless there's more than two other zones, in which case it's now an N-1 
problem, and ... Lather, Rinse, Repeat until Done.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of King, Brad
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 5:02 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

Hi,

We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error:

452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 
[CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com]

Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail 
recipients.

Rgs,

Brad


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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Luis E. Muñoz via mailop]

On 23 Jan 2018, at 17:02, King, Brad wrote:


Hi,

We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following 
error:


452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 
[CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com]


Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail 
recipients.


Are you seeing this within the same SMTP transaction, such as when the 
first few recipients get a 2xx and then some of the recipients get the 
ATTR38? If so, what happens in the next delivery attempt with the ones 
that got the ATTR38?


Best regards

-lem
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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Benjamin BILLON]

Although indeed comical, I think we should all appreciate the level of details 
we have access to. It’s the kind of transparency which can help solve issues 
faster.

--
Benjamin

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Emre Üst 
|euro.message|
Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2018 17:47
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

Hi Brad,
We are seeing lots of temporary errors ;

the funniest error is;

**  Error: "452 4.3.1 Insufficient system resources 
(UsedVersionBuckets[D:\Queue]) 
[AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]
 
[AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]"
 while connected from eg-c-5-031.euromsg.net<http://eg-c-5-031.euromsg.net> 
(185.11.212.31) to 
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com>
 (104.47.8.33)   *


Error: "451 4.4.0 Message failed to be made redundant due to A shadow copy was 
required but failed to be made with an AckStatus of Retry 
[DB5EUR03HT243.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5EUR03HT243.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]
 
[DB5EUR03FT029.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5EUR03FT029.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]"
 while connected from ) to 
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com>
 (104.47.10.33)

SMTP service unavailable: "421 4.4.1 Connection timed out. Total session 
duration: 00:14:19.6338392 
[DB5EUR03FT041.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5EUR03FT041.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]"
 received from 
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com>
 (104.47.10.33) while connected from eg- to 
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com>
 (104.47.10.33)


Error: "451 4.7.0 Temporary server error. Please try again later. PRX5 NextHop: 
DB5-EUR03b.hub.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5-EUR03b.hub.protection.outlook.com>
 
[DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]"
 while connected from  to 
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com>
 (104.47.10.33)


SMTP service unavailable: "421 4.3.2 The maximum number of concurrent server 
connections has exceeded a limit, closing transmission channel 
(DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>)
 
[DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]"
 received from 
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com>
 (104.47.10.33) while connected from ) to 
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com>
 (104.47.10.33)

SMTP service unavailable: smtp;451 4.7.0 Timeout waiting for client input 
[VE1EUR02FT032.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://VE1EUR02FT032.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com>]

Error: "452 4.3.1 Insufficient system resources 
[AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]
 
[AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]"
 while connected from  to 
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com>
 (104.47.8.33)














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[mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Emre Üst |euro . message|]

Hi Brad,

We are seeing lots of temporary errors ;

the funniest error is;

**  Error: "452 4.3.1 Insufficient system resources
(UsedVersionBuckets[D:\Queue]) [
AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com] [
AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]" while connected from
eg-c-5-031.euromsg.net (185.11.212.31) to
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.8.33)   *


Error: "451 4.4.0 Message failed to be made redundant due to A shadow copy
was required but failed to be made with an AckStatus of Retry [
DB5EUR03HT243.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com] [
DB5EUR03FT029.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]" while connected from
) to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.10.33)

SMTP service unavailable: "421 4.4.1 Connection timed out. Total session
duration: 00:14:19.6338392 [
DB5EUR03FT041.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]" received from
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.10.33) while connected from
eg- to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.10.33)


Error: "451 4.7.0 Temporary server error. Please try again later. PRX5
NextHop: DB5-EUR03b.hub.protection.outlook.com [
DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]" while connected from
to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.10.33)


SMTP service unavailable: "421 4.3.2 The maximum number of concurrent
server connections has exceeded a limit, closing transmission channel (
DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com) [
DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]" received from
hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.10.33) while connected from
) to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.10.33)

SMTP service unavailable: smtp;451 4.7.0 Timeout waiting for client input [
VE1EUR02FT032.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com]

Error: "452 4.3.1 Insufficient system resources [
AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com] [
AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]" while connected from
to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.8.33)
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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[David Hofstee]

Something else is going on. Because separate regions is not a problem if
you would store the email "per recipient". Just replicate it and store it
in more than one region. Somehow this is not allowed.

So it also means that they only want to store the email just once. That can
be a functional requirement (once per tenant) or for their anti-spam system
(which probably does not like multi-tenant systems since it would result in
inconsistent results).

Yours,


David

On 24 January 2018 at 05:29, Benjamin BILLON <bbil...@splio.com> wrote:

> Some thingS are, but solely complaining here is not going to help them
> solve their (various) issues.
>
> > 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 [
> CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com]
> Given the reply, I'd say it's related to the fact they have distinct nodes
> / regions, and that's a big oopsie.
> For O365, although not convenient, I understand the principle of having
> multiple tenants. (Who wants to use a single, integrated collaborative
> system for all worldwide offices, anyway? Yes, it is said in a sarcastic
> way)
> For Hotmail, which is by essence a "global" service, it would lead to this
> kind of issues indeed
>
> --
> Benjamin
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Charles
> McKean
> Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2018 11:39
> To: mailop@mailop.org
> Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
>
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Joe Hamelin <j...@nethead.com> wrote:
> > It means they should have stuck to BSD and sendmail. ;)
>
> Now somebody else will pop up and tell them to submit a ticket and they
> will reply that they have submitted 6 tickets and Microsoft isn't
> responding to them.
>
> SOMETHING IS BADLY BROKEN OVER AT MICROSOFT, FOLKS.
>
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>



-- 
--
My opinion is mine.
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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Benjamin BILLON]

Some thingS are, but solely complaining here is not going to help them solve 
their (various) issues.

> 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 
> [CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com]
Given the reply, I'd say it's related to the fact they have distinct nodes / 
regions, and that's a big oopsie. 
For O365, although not convenient, I understand the principle of having 
multiple tenants. (Who wants to use a single, integrated collaborative system 
for all worldwide offices, anyway? Yes, it is said in a sarcastic way)
For Hotmail, which is by essence a "global" service, it would lead to this kind 
of issues indeed 

--
Benjamin

-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Charles McKean
Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2018 11:39
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Joe Hamelin <j...@nethead.com> wrote:
> It means they should have stuck to BSD and sendmail. ;)

Now somebody else will pop up and tell them to submit a ticket and they will 
reply that they have submitted 6 tickets and Microsoft isn't responding to them.

SOMETHING IS BADLY BROKEN OVER AT MICROSOFT, FOLKS.

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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Charles McKean]

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Joe Hamelin  wrote:
> It means they should have stuck to BSD and sendmail. ;)

Now somebody else will pop up and tell them to submit a ticket and
they will reply that they have submitted 6 tickets and Microsoft isn't
responding to them.

SOMETHING IS BADLY BROKEN OVER AT MICROSOFT, FOLKS.

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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Joe Hamelin]

It means they should have stuck to BSD and sendmail. ;)

--
Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, +1 (360) 474-7474

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 5:02 PM, King, Brad 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error:
>
>
> 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 [
> CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com]
>
>
>
> Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail
> recipients.
>
>
>
> Rgs,
>
>
>
> Brad
>
>
>
>
>
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[mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[King, Brad]

Hi,

We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error:

452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 
[CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com]

Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail 
recipients.

Rgs,

Brad


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