Re: [MapHist] Query: Arno Peters controversy
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Vladimiro While agreeing with everything you have written I do think we may have missed the point a little. My reply was to point out to / remind Stefan that there was at least one other name connected to this particular projection. I have no axe to grind with the projection per se. Secondly, there are a lot of people out here who are not learned (your bold type). I do classify myself as a lover of maps and an amateur collector and perhaps know a little more about these wonderful works of art than many, but I do not classify myself as learned as I still have much to learn. Thirdly, and most importantly, we have not given poor Stefan many sources which he can refer to which was his original appeal. (Sorry if I have missed any besides Joost's references to his father's work.) Maybe some of the learned community out there can give him some decent references. I do not think anyone wants to start up a pro-contra discussion here as I believe most readers are on your side. Best wishes to all MapHisters Kit This email has been sent to you by: Kit Batten Auerhahnweg 7 70499 Stuttgart Germany kitthe...@aol.com 0049-711-865524 If you are not the intended recipient of this email, I apologise for my error and for any inconvenience caused. Could you please delete it and any attachment from your computer. A short message to the above email address with a subject line only with text - Incorrect Email Address - would be much appreciated. ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Query: Arno Peters controversy
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Thanks to Kit for the call to reply at the bibliographical help which moved Stefan to write to us. May be I had to count up one million before replying. I wanted just to point out, in a vivid manner, that the question from the technical point of view has nothing else to say and I wanted to suggest a new line of research: manipulation of masses, and social psychology. I would very like to know, for instance, whether the UN Organizations like Unicef asked to some learned person (Snyder, Robinson, et al.) what he thought about the new projection before adopting it! And what moved them to choose that projection. Anyway, from the list of interests of Stefan I see he is moving in the socio-political direction. FIne! As fa as to Italy there has been no particular attention from the Academic point of view, neither from the political one. I remember just a paper written in the early 90s in order to defend Mercator's projection against the attack by Peters and the attention paid by persons involved in ONG. I may ask to the Società Geografica Italiana whether it took part to the international debate. vladimiro Il giorno 23/ott/2010, alle ore 08.57, kitthe...@aol.com ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Vladimiro While agreeing with everything you have written I do think we may have missed the point a little. My reply was to point out to / remind Stefan that there was at least one other name connected to this particular projection. I have no axe to grind with the projection per se. Secondly, there are a lot of people out here who are not learned (your bold type). I do classify myself as a lover of maps and an amateur collector and perhaps know a little more about these wonderful works of art than many, but I do not classify myself as learned as I still have much to learn. Thirdly, and most importantly, we have not given poor Stefan many sources which he can refer to which was his original appeal. (Sorry if I have missed any besides Joost's references to his father's work.) Maybe some of the learned community out there can give him some decent references. I do not think anyone wants to start up a pro-contra discussion here as I believe most readers are on your side. Best wishes to all MapHisters Kit This email has been sent to you by: Kit Batten Auerhahnweg 7 70499 Stuttgart Germany kitthe...@aol.com 0049-711-865524 If you are not the intended recipient of this email, I apologise for my error and for any inconvenience caused. Could you please delete it and any attachment from your computer. A short message to the above email address with a subject line only with text - Incorrect Email Address - would be much appreciated. ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Query: Arno Peters controversy
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + On 10/23/2010 5:06 AM, Vladimiro Valerio wrote: I wanted just to point out, in a vivid manner, that the question from the technical point of view has nothing else to say and I wanted to suggest a new line of research: manipulation of masses, and social psychology. As someone who is not all that learned (and not even a map person! ;-) I just wanted to say that I found Vladimiro's passionate post fascinating. Alas, I don't know beans about projection issues, so am happy enough to just follow along with anything that appears to question the colonialist legacy ... or that challenges the establishment visual culture with which I am (again, unthinkingly) most familiar. At any rate, I have a thumbnail of the Peters Projection map posted to http://www.she-philosopher.com/ib/topics/antipodist.html (see the last 3 entries in the right-hand sidebar), with accompanying link to a sales page for it at a favorite (left-leaning) activist group: the Syracuse Cultural Workers, whose organizational motto is: No matter what our attempts to inform, it is our ability to inspire that will turn the tides. FWIW, Syracuse Cultural Workers also sells the Hobo-Dyer Equal Area Map and the Upside Down World Map (for which, see additional links at the bottom of my Web page sidebar). The brief descriptions I give there of the 3 maps all come from the SCW catalog, and reflect the very sociocultural biases Vladimiro admonishes I suppose all this means that I'm going to have to update these sidebar captions one of these days ;( ... But there's no time for psychoanalyzing myself right now! I'm not supposed to be doing anything at the moment other than getting 3 websites ready to launch by the end of this month ... to which tasks I had best return forthwith! bg In haste, Deborah _ Deborah Taylor-Pearce d...@she-philosopher.com ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
RE: [MapHist] Query: Arno Peters controversy
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Stefan Have a look at my father's reaction (from University of Leuven, Belgium) to the Peters projection: - Depuydt, Frans (1982), The equivalent quintuple projection: Paper presented at the 11th International Cartographic Conference, Warsaw, 4 p. - Depuydt, Frans (1983), The equivalent quintuple projection: International Yearbook of Cartography, v. 23, p. 63-74. [Equal-area map of world in five contiguous sections adapted from Bonne and Sinusoidal projections.] Best regards Joost Joost Depuydt | consulent wetenschappelijk werk Stad Antwerpen | FelixArchief Oudeleeuwenrui 29 | 2000 Antwerpen tel + 32 3 338 94 59 | fax +32 3 338 94 10 stadsarch...@stad.antwerpen.be mailto:stadasarch...@stad.antwerpen.be | joost.depu...@stad.antwerpen.be www.antwerpen.be https://webmail.antwerpen.be/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.antwerpen.be/ | www.felixarchief.be https://webmail.antwerpen.be/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.felixarchief.be/ www.facebook.com/felixarchief https://webmail.antwerpen.be/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.facebook.com/felixarchief www.geschiedenisvanantwerpen.be https://webmail.antwerpen.be/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.geschiedenisvanantwerpen.be/ 't Stad is van iedereen. ***Disclaimer*** Dit e-mailbestand, met inbegrip van zijn eventuele bijlagen, is een officieel document van de Stad Antwerpen. Het kan vertrouwelijke of persoonlijke informatie bevatten. Als u deze boodschap per vergissing hebt ontvangen, verzoeken wij u om de afzender daarvan onmiddellijk per e-mail of telefoon op de hoogte te stellen en ze vervolgens van uw computer te verwijderen zonder de inhoud ervan eerst te lezen, te vermenigvuldigen, te verspreiden of op andere wijze openbaar te maken aan derden. De Stad Antwerpen kan op geen enkele manier aansprakelijk worden gesteld voor mogelijke fouten of onnauwkeurigheden in dit bericht, noch voor verlies, ongemak of directe dan wel indirecte schade geleden ten gevolge van het gebruik van in deze e-mail voorkomende incorrecte informatie Van: maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl namens Stefan Müller Verzonden: vr 22/10/2010 9:18 Aan: Discussion group for map history Onderwerp: [MapHist] Query: Arno Peters controversy This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear list, I am going to prepare a research project on the Peters projection controversy. Probably many of you know the story: In 1973 German historian Arno Peters (1916-2002) went to public with his world map projection, that have led for three decades to an intensive controversy on map qualities and on social impact to cartographic self-conception. Though vehement rejection by the cartographic scene his map became something like a track record. You find it on the cover of Willy Brandt's North-South commission report in 1980, in Germany it caused a public debate on maps in TV news (in the End-1970s), the map has been propagated by Christian development organizations like Christian Aid and Oxfam (in Germany it is still distributed by the Evangelical Mission Agency), it has been published by the National Council of Churches (US), and it was distributed by UN organisations UNICEF and UNCTAD. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall-Peters_projection) Now I am looking for academic, political, and public statements on the projection, on Peters, and on the Peters controversy. Beside German cartography I am familiar with the Anglo-American academic discussion (e.g. A. Robinson, M. Monmonier, J. Crampton, P. Vujakovic, J.P. Snyder). Due to the Anglo-American/West-European focus of databases like JSTOR it is quite hard to get into discussions of the Spanish speaking world or the former colonized countries in Africa and Asia. Especially for a historian is it yet complicated to identify the major cartographic/geographic journals in these regions. In particular I am interested in any reference to the Peters map * made by political organizations, initiatives and so on, * made/published in Central and Latin American journals, * made in journals or by organizations of the former colonized countries in Africa and Asia, * potential discussion in Eastern Europe. However, any advice is very welcome. If you are interested in a newly published paper on Peters (History Compass, July 2010, DOI: 10./j.1478-0542.2010.00693.x) contact me. You can email me directly. Later I will give an overview to the list. Best regards, Stefan Müller University of Duisburg-Essen (Germany) Department of History stefan.mueller@uni-due.de ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the
Re: [MapHist] Query: Arno Peters controversy
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear all, I took some while before replying to the message of Stefan, as it is important to get quiet and count up to ten thousand before enter into the debate of the so called Arno Peters Projection. Any learned person (learned in the field of geographical projection, I mean, here and onward!) is irritated and offended by the success of that projection, for at least two reason. First, it is not an invention of Mr. Arno Peters but it is only a variant of a rectangular (or cylindrical) equivalent (or equal area) projection. Any of us may invent one projection of that kind just modifying the dimension of the degree of longitude. We may decide that equator has its proper length (unless the scale) and than the distance between the parallels is computed in order to have the rectangles formed by parallels and meridians equivalent (in dimension, I mean, unless the scale) to the spherical surface limited by the same meridians and parallels. Peters decide to choose, as I well remember, 45° of latitude. Secondly, there are an infinity of equivalent (equal area) projections. The sinusoidal is one of them, but it is almost useless to name all of them. Thus we really didn't need to wait for Arno Peter's to discover an equal area projection! The fight against the Mercators projection is an invention by Peters. No learned person may imagine that Greenland if wider in extension than Africa, as any learned person knows the distortion any projection produces in the image of the earth, and any learned person knows that we use a peculiar projection in function of our, or requested, needs: projection useful for sailing purposes (Mercator or ay conformal projection), for air navigation (gnomonic or any other which transforms great circle in straight lines), for cadastral purposes (modified Cassini, or Bonne or any equal area projections) and so on at the infinity! Peters used the great scientific ignorance in the field of cartographical projections and used the complex of the colonial powers and white people (generally speaking) for what they did in exploiting the actual third world, to impose a projection that would give, at last according to him, the due importance and dimension at the third world areas, ranging between the tropics. His claim of England as big as Madagascar or Greenland wider than Africa, are absolutely stupid arguments, valid only within a not learned community. The problem of Peters' projection is grounded much more in the social psychology (it is a Psychoanalytic problem) than in the field of science. How is it possible that a charlatan (from Oxford Dictionary: a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill) reached so great reputation only due to general human ignorance? That's the true question, no more! And I live in a country where ignorance has led us to the actual Prime Minister and I (and a great deal of italians) know exactly on my/our skin what ignorance may mean and where may lead! We need a psychologist not a scientist to study the matter posed by Stefan. I do hope to have express clearly my point of view. vladimiro Il giorno 22/ott/2010, alle ore 09.18, Stefan Müller ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear list, I am going to prepare a research project on the Peters projection controversy. Probably many of you know the story: In 1973 German historian Arno Peters (1916-2002) went to public with his world map projection, that have led for three decades to an intensive controversy on map qualities and on social impact to cartographic self-conception. Though vehement rejection by the cartographic scene his map became something like a “track record”. You find it on the cover of Willy Brandt’s North-South commission report in 1980, in Germany it caused a public debate on maps in TV news (in the End-1970s), the map has been propagated by Christian development organizations like Christian Aid and Oxfam (in Germany it is still distributed by the Evangelical Mission Agency), it has been published by the National Council of Churches (US), and it was distributed by UN organisations UNICEF and UNCTAD. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall-Peters_projection) Now I am looking for academic, political, and public statements on the projection, on Peters, and on the Peters controversy. Beside German cartography I am familiar with the Anglo-American academic discussion (e.g. A. Robinson, M. Monmonier, J. Crampton, P. Vujakovic, J.P. Snyder). Due to the Anglo-American/West-European focus of databases like JSTOR it is quite hard to get into discussions of the Spanish speaking world or the former colonized
