Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Increasing involvement and donations is instrumental for the success of the project. We have an estimated user base of over 100 million unique users, and probably a similar amount of non unique users, but we have less donations than Thunderbird - who shows the donation message at every launch of the program, so even multiple times per day - but I have not seen any similar complaints on Thunderbird support mailing lists. I think that the right approach to this issue - which, by the way, does not seem to be an issue for many users, as I had to show a screenshot to several LibreOffice users to explain what I was referring to (including my wife), as they did not even notice the banner - is to improve the way we are showing it (including, of course, the form and the place) and not asking to get rid of it based on a number of opinions which is not representative of our user base. Thanks to the involvement of volunteers and to donations money we are able to organize events around FOSDEM, the LibreOffice Conference, pay for volunteer travels to events either internationally or locally, have a team who manages the day to day activities of the foundation, and so on. Missing the involvement of volunteers and the donation money, we should probably reduce over time and then stop all activities. I am happy to discuss a contructive way to improve the situation, with the objective of increasing the number of involved volunteers and the amount of donations, but I strongly oppose a simple removal of the banner. On 30/01/2019 06:21, Justin Luth wrote: > Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote: > > “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to > get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software? > How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing, > and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions. > > First, note the user perception of this new “feature”. It is classified > as naggy. It is not seen as a legitimate request for help, but as an > untargeted and intrusive irritant. > > Secondly, it is totally unwanted. This user terms it as obnoxious, and > references the disrespectful and heavy-handed Windows attitude that has > driven so many of us to FOSS in the first place. > > And that all leads to the obvious reaction of “how can I never see this > again.” Seeing it once is already too much, and every 90 days is not an > improvement. > > Do we really want to market LibreOffice as yet another piece of > unprofessional[1] beggarware? Everyone already acknowledges that > “GetInvolved” irritates us, but now imagine the scenario where someone > has donated to LibreOffice and a week later the donate message pops up! > That will feel extremely offensive! > > Having places (like help - get involved/donate/about) where the user can > discover and actively seek out ways to support LibreOffice is fine, but > intentionally irritating the user base is sure to back-fire. Please, let > us remove the infobar advertisements before they cause too much damage. > > Thanks, > > Justin - volunteer developer, promoter, user-support (who is damaged in > each of these capacities by this adware), and self-appointed end-user > advocate. > > [1] It is completely unprofessional. Speaking about the “get involved” > pop-up, Michael Meeks writes that “No vendor (or in-house team) > providing an actually supported version would show this to their users”. -- Italo Vignoli - Marketing & PR email italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - skype italovignoli hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Hi Justin, Thanks for raising this. I just want to offer my perspective: I closely monitor the social media channels for LibreOffice and TDF (Twitter with 23,000 followers, Facebook with 54,000 page likes, Google+ with 16,000 followers), along with Reddit and other sites. I've read many hundreds of feedback messages across those channels since the release of LibreOffice 6.1, and haven't seen a *single* complaint (or even mention) relating to the "Get involved" infobar. (Of course, there's a chance I've missed something, especially over the Christmas break, but I hope you see my point!) Now, that's not to deny that some people may find it a bit naggy. But I just want to add those data points -- that it doesn't seem to be bothering the vast majority of users. Another data point: the infobar in the app brings around 800-900 users every day to the "Get involved" page on our website. Of course, we cannot easily measure how many of those visitors become active contributors in the project, but it's a good start IMO. And now my personal view: I think we are absolutely right to keep it. Even if a few people find it naggy (and again, given that I've seen no mention of it on social media, I don't think it's many), I think it's extremely important that we remind people: this software doesn't just happen by magic. It's the hard work of a community and ecosystem members. If you want it to keep improving, contribute back. One thing I *do* see a lot on social media is a rather entitled attitude of "LibreOffice should do X" or "Why hasn't LibreOffice got Y?". I gently remind those people that changes and improvements only happen if someone steps up to do them :-) So a very occasional reminder in the app is fine by me. People are getting a massively feature-rich office suite for completely free, after all -- they should bear in mind who makes it! Mike On 30/01/2019 06:21, Justin Luth wrote: > Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote: > > “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to > get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software? > How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing, > and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions. > > > First, note the user perception of this new “feature”. It is classified > as naggy. It is not seen as a legitimate request for help, but as an > untargeted and intrusive irritant. > > Secondly, it is totally unwanted. This user terms it as obnoxious, and > references the disrespectful and heavy-handed Windows attitude that has > driven so many of us to FOSS in the first place. > > And that all leads to the obvious reaction of “how can I never see this > again.” Seeing it once is already too much, and every 90 days is not an > improvement. > > > Do we really want to market LibreOffice as yet another piece of > unprofessional[1] beggarware? Everyone already acknowledges that > “GetInvolved” irritates us, but now imagine the scenario where someone > has donated to LibreOffice and a week later the donate message pops up! > That will feel extremely offensive! > > Having places (like help - get involved/donate/about) where the user can > discover and actively seek out ways to support LibreOffice is fine, but > intentionally irritating the user base is sure to back-fire. Please, let > us remove the infobar advertisements before they cause too much damage. > > Thanks, > > Justin - volunteer developer, promoter, user-support (who is damaged in > each of these capacities by this adware), and self-appointed end-user > advocate. > > > [1] It is completely unprofessional. Speaking about the “get involved” > pop-up, Michael Meeks writes that “No vendor (or in-house team) > providing an actually supported version would show this to their users”. > > > P.S. Sorry for not realizing that the ESC decision to remove GetInvolved > from 6.1.5 Stable should have been confirmed by other bodies before > being acted on. > > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Nightly Rush Calc Threading video was: It's Sunday night - lets fiddle with Calc Threading...
Hi Drew, On 21/01/2019 17:35, Drew Jensen wrote: > Collabora and AMD are both on the TDF Advisory Board, I believe, so perhaps Hmm; I forget if AMD is still there. > Multi-core threading support in the LibreOffice calculation engine is the > result of engineering work lead by a core team at TDF Advisory Board > members Collabora Ltd., Tor Lillqvist, Luboš Luňák & Dennis Francis, and > Applied Micro Devices (AMD). > --- Collabora Productivity Limited - if we want a proper name - I'd just use 'Collabora' for the group. > I assume it would be acceptable to use the Logos from Collabora and AMD for > the graphic element of that screen? Fine by me for Collabora's Sorry for the ultra-slow reply; I really value a CC but TDF's lists do reply-to-mangling and drop that (sadly) which means I have to poll the marketing list from time to time & remember threads to look for replies. Thanks for the great work here, ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, GM Collabora Productivity Hangout: mejme...@gmail.com, Skype: mmeeks (M) +44 7795 666 147 - timezone usually UK / Europe -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
On 30/01/2019 16:58, Justin Luth wrote: > I have used Thunderbird on a daily basis for over 10 years and also > frequently set it up for all of our office users (about 50 computers). > I never see advertising in Thunderbird (60.2.1 64bit on Ubuntu) and I > can't recall ever having seen it - let alone having it pop up and > request a response to dismiss it. So quite honestly I have no idea what > you are talking about - I am completely unaware of any Thunderbird > advertising. However, I couldn't help immediately noticing and disliking > the advertisement as soon as it started in LibreOffice 6.1. I have used Thunderbird for the same time, and I have seen the request for donations every time I have started the software (since the project become independent from Mozilla). The image of my Thunderbird startup screen, which is identical on my Mac and on my Ubuntu PC, is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ykhivv6611u06qx/Screenshot%202019-01-30%20at%2017.11.13.png?dl=0. The fact that you do not see the request for donations from Thunderbird confirms what I have written in my previous message: only a tiny number of users looks at what is on the screen and is positively or negatively impacted based on his experience/background. Sorry, but you are one out of millions of users, and even 1000 complaints - which we do not have - would be enough to get rid of the request for involvement/donations. Of course, this does not mean that the current solution is the best one and therefore there is space for improvement (which is not getting rid of the request, as that would not be an improvement at all). -- Italo Vignoli - Marketing & PR email italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - skype italovignoli hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Mike, I share what Justin has rightly stated: most users will *not* participate *any* software in any way. They are being using software because they want their job done. Point. Le 30/01/2019 à 10:16, Mike Saunders a écrit : Thanks for raising this. I just want to offer my perspective: I closely monitor the social media channels for LibreOffice and TDF (Twitter with 23,000 followers, Facebook with 54,000 page likes, Google+ with 16,000 followers), along with Reddit and other sites. I'm managing ca. 1000 civil servant users which I encourage to install at home the very software they're using at work (namely LibreOffice). Most of them ignore what a social media is (well, they have heard about it in the news, usually for bad). So, as thorough it might be, your social media monitoring is biased: (libre software) social media are not for John Doe, but for geeks only. And, you're right, some geeks might help. I've read many hundreds of feedback messages across those channels since the release of LibreOffice 6.1, and haven't seen a *single* complaint (or even mention) relating to the "Get involved" infobar. (Of course, there's a chance I've missed something, especially over the Christmas break, but I hope you see my point!) John Doe won't complain. He'll mumble and won't understand why this $&§@ message is bothering him (Justin original message is clear about this). Now, that's not to deny that some people may find it a bit naggy. But I just want to add those data points -- that it doesn't seem to be bothering the vast majority of users. Not "some people". Most ot the ones I'm dealing with on a daily basis and who -- again -- will *never ever* go complaining anywhere. Again, your view is biased. As stated : FOSS is targetting at geeks, not at the general public. So a (not so) side question might be: who's the LibreOffice /typical/ user you're refferring to? Who are the ones you want to attract or retain? Another data point: the infobar in the app brings around 800-900 users every day to the "Get involved" page on our website. Of course, we cannot easily measure how many of those visitors become active contributors in the project, but it's a good start IMO. It is highly probable that these people are geeks. And now my personal view: I think we are absolutely right to keep it. Even if a few people find it naggy (and again, given that I've seen no mention of it on social media, I don't think it's many), I think it's extremely important that we remind people: this software doesn't just happen by magic. It's the hard work of a community and ecosystem members. If you want it to keep improving, contribute back. Sending this message is right. But... John Doe is *not* the target and might react as Justin stated. Best, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
When I first saw this issue this morning, my initial reaction was to agree that perhaps a request for donations appearing within the application is inappropriate but, on reconsideration, I've changed my mind. Whenever I have been promoting the use of LO, the advantages of its open source heritage are usually acknowledged but the fact that it can be downloaded and installed without any financial outlay is almost always the deciding factor. Once the "sale" is made, it is likely that many users don't really consider how LO is developed while continuing to enjoy its benefits. There is a big difference between displaying an unsolicited 3rd party ad in an application, such as is common with phone apps, and a tasteful reminder of how LO is funded and developed. In fact I would not even consider the latter to be an ad at all. The difference between an "informative reminder" and a "nagging ad" is probably a combination of appropriate, considered wording and the way in which the reminder appears - frequency, what part of LO usage, etc. I have to admit I was staggered to learn that Thunderbird gets more funding than LO. Perhaps looking closely as Thunderbird's funding methods could be informative. Nige From: Mike Saunders Sent: 30 January 2019 09:16 To: marketing@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice Hi Justin, Thanks for raising this. I just want to offer my perspective: I closely monitor the social media channels for LibreOffice and TDF (Twitter with 23,000 followers, Facebook with 54,000 page likes, Google+ with 16,000 followers), along with Reddit and other sites. I've read many hundreds of feedback messages across those channels since the release of LibreOffice 6.1, and haven't seen a *single* complaint (or even mention) relating to the "Get involved" infobar. (Of course, there's a chance I've missed something, especially over the Christmas break, but I hope you see my point!) Now, that's not to deny that some people may find it a bit naggy. But I just want to add those data points -- that it doesn't seem to be bothering the vast majority of users. Another data point: the infobar in the app brings around 800-900 users every day to the "Get involved" page on our website. Of course, we cannot easily measure how many of those visitors become active contributors in the project, but it's a good start IMO. And now my personal view: I think we are absolutely right to keep it. Even if a few people find it naggy (and again, given that I've seen no mention of it on social media, I don't think it's many), I think it's extremely important that we remind people: this software doesn't just happen by magic. It's the hard work of a community and ecosystem members. If you want it to keep improving, contribute back. One thing I *do* see a lot on social media is a rather entitled attitude of "LibreOffice should do X" or "Why hasn't LibreOffice got Y?". I gently remind those people that changes and improvements only happen if someone steps up to do them :-) So a very occasional reminder in the app is fine by me. People are getting a massively feature-rich office suite for completely free, after all -- they should bear in mind who makes it! Mike On 30/01/2019 06:21, Justin Luth wrote: > Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote: > > “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to > get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software? > How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing, > and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions. > > > First, note the user perception of this new “feature”. It is classified > as naggy. It is not seen as a legitimate request for help, but as an > untargeted and intrusive irritant. > > Secondly, it is totally unwanted. This user terms it as obnoxious, and > references the disrespectful and heavy-handed Windows attitude that has > driven so many of us to FOSS in the first place. > > And that all leads to the obvious reaction of “how can I never see this > again.” Seeing it once is already too much, and every 90 days is not an > improvement. > > > Do we really want to market LibreOffice as yet another piece of > unprofessional[1] beggarware? Everyone already acknowledges that > “GetInvolved” irritates us, but now imagine the scenario where someone > has donated to LibreOffice and a week later the donate message pops up! > That will feel extremely offensive! > > Having places (like help - get involved/donate/about) where the user can > discover and actively seek out ways to support LibreOffice is fine, but > intentionally irritating the user base is sure to back-fire. Please, let > us remove the infobar advertisements before they cause too much damage. > > Thanks, > > Justin - volunteer developer, promoter, user-support (who is damaged in > each of these capacities by this adware), and
