Re: [libreoffice-marketing] MARKETING PLAN: Recap of Discussion and Potential Labels
Op 12-11-2020 om 18:53 schreef Italo Vignoli: On 11/12/20 5:58 PM, Telesto wrote: My task is to put together a marketing plan which works, then the board may decide in a different direction (IMHO, using the "community" label would make the marketing plan uselss and would not allow to reach the objective, which is the sustainability of the project). I not totally following. In which way would they community label hurt they marketing plan? Because "community" would be meaningless outside the open source community, as 99.9% of LibreOffice users - those outside the open source community - would not understand or misunderstand the term, while inside the open source community would represent the feature limited version of an open core product, which does not correspond to reality. This will be a really tough one :-). I'm probably able to shoot down all they options, suggested by myself and others based on various arguments. And they community edition is in some sense crippled. No incremental updates, no LTS support edition. No professional support, hell an inferior product :P I know that Visual Studio Community Edition being crippled, but if you ask me where exactly. And the community terminology is already now to the large audience. Yes, they accents probably different. So certain elements of Community highlighted others suppressed, in different contexts. But should be workable (even though objected initially) And I think they Community Edition must be interpreted in they light of Business Edition. And they Business Edition in light of they Community Edition. LibreOffice Community <-> LibreOffice Business feels pretty natural to me [dropped they Edition here]. There is probably no LibreOffice Business Edition as such; only Collabora Office, LibreOffice powered by CIB (or maybe CIB Office?) And community probably rather easy to translate. And you can even have a LibreOffice Online Community Edition. LibreOffice Online Classic/Desktop/Standard are no-go, IMHO They alternative is going to stick with LibreOffice (by TDF) as TDF representing they community. But that's even harder (read: impossible) to market. I surely think site design of LibreOffice.org being really important. They Business edition must more prominent place. And there needs more explaining how at the Community side how LibreOffice being made possible and say thank you to all they major code sponsors. To get some 'brand' knowledge. I only learned about they importance of CIB and Collabora by being active in they bug tracker for a long term. People can write Contributes to "LibreOffice" be writing 1 or 2 small commits a year. What they tell you is true, but actually means squad. In any case, the discussion is now focused in the right direction, to find a positioning for LibreOffice - released by TDF - which is not the same as that of LibreOffice released by ecosystem companies, and is easy to understand for the users (not the community members). Is indeed important to keep this in mind. However I think it will pass they test. Not sure if there is a way to 'verify' or test they assumption? How they actual public would perceive Community next to say LibreOffice (for) Business? Or is there some existing (public available) research? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Comments to Proposals
Hi Andras, Andreas Mantke wrote on 11/11/2020 17:33: >>> why is a TDF LibreOffice release not useful for business users? >> It doesn't say it's not useful. > > maybe from your point of view, but a visitor will get another impression. Of course that is a sort of the intention. You may have noticed the background of the current discussion, the situation where TDF has to work on a stabel future for development of the software.. ;) > The visitor will read the tag line on the green box in addition and draw > the conclusion that the version linked from the green box is only for > non-business. I agree that somehow it must be clear that there is no forcing involved, that all users are free to chose. Cheers, Cor -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger https://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer https://www.libreoffice.org - Member Board The Document Foundation - marketing @CollaboraOffice - ceo www.nouenoff.nl - initiator www.mijncloudoffice.nl -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Comments to Proposals
Hi Mike, Mike Saunders wrote on 11/11/2020 15:30: > On 11/11/2020 14:19, Cor Nouws wrote: >> >> You may have noticed my suggestion - somewhere past weeks - on a simple >> but a clear change in the download, where every professional/business >> user immediately notices the situation, without putting any limitation >> in the freedom for anyone. > > I made this mock-up for a download page update (of course, the "Edition" > tagline is still open for discussion): > > https://blog.documentfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/download_page_concept.png I like the idea - obviously. The mockUp makes it easier to work on it. > But I think something like that would be good: segment users early on, > pushing businesses towards the ecosystem offerings, while making it > clear that the TDF version only has community support. But still giving > everyone the freedom to do what they choose. > > What do you think? For now, fine. Let's see what the discussion brings wrt tags and naming and so on? Thanks! Cor -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger https://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer https://www.libreoffice.org - Member Board The Document Foundation - marketing @CollaboraOffice - ceo www.nouenoff.nl - initiator www.mijncloudoffice.nl -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] MARKETING PLAN: Recap of Discussion and Potential Labels
Op 12-11-2020 om 16:57 schreef Italo Vignoli: On 11/12/20 4:36 PM, Marc Paré wrote: Sorry for being a "pain" about this, but I believe some of us still have the preference of "Community Edition" or "Community Unsupported". It has been explained several times that the label is not supposed to please community members, but is supposed to communicate to the outside world. So, I have explained why "community" is not a good choice, because inside the open source community is distinctive for a version with less features from an "open core" project (and LibreOffice is not open core) and outside the open source community has a different meaning, which is misleading for non technical users of desktop software. I think we should start listing they whole bunch of options advantages/disadvantages. Community Edition Pro: - Supported by volunteers; - Being an STS edition - In line how it's perceived internally - Slightly lower quality level - They community is lacking few Enterprise features. Like incremental updates and LTS - Doesn't ban commercial entity's using it. - Making it looking less professional Contra - Possibility of TDF having different Edition - Certain risk to be perceived as trimmed down version; but not totally incorrect either ++ LibreOffice Free Edition - Free so likely unsupported Contra - Tautology - Possibly perceived a trimmed down version - Not a obvious distinction with they commercial edition) - Suggest that their is a paid edition (by TDF) +++ LibreOffice Fresh Pro - Position as latest (so possible bugs). - Already common terminology Contra - Not a obvious distinction with they commercial edition +++ LibreOffice TDF edition Pro - Room to explain what it entails - It's a proper description Contra - Suggestion TDF to be kind of vendor/distributor - Suggesting non-TDF LibreOffice editions; which helpful for LibreOffice brand. LibreOffice Rolling Pro - Describes to be latest Contra - No clear cut why to opt for Enterprise/commercial edition - It's more a description what it is instead of real edition - There is a schedule, fixed dates. So not hyper-correct However still opinion that should be somewhere in the description, but putting in they label but to much. Should these not also be part of the list? Or have they been discounted as possible labels? If they have been dropped as possible terms, by what process would they have been dropped and by whom? They message I have just sent to the mailing list explains why many labels have been dropped. Based on the discussion, the focus is now on the concept of a "rolling" release, and "community", "personal", and other labels are not in line with this focus. Should not the final decision go to a membership vote? I am assuming it would be strange for the board to go against a membership decision? My task is to put together a marketing plan which works, then the board may decide in a different direction (IMHO, using the "community" label would make the marketing plan uselss and would not allow to reach the objective, which is the sustainability of the project). I not totally following. In which way would they community label hurt they marketing plan? As I'm not seeing the problem straight way. Regards, Telesto -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-marketing] Free Software and Labels?
Hi, for those who are looking for other free software projects, here a short list of some, which I use myself: - Wordpress: the distribution / release is not labeled with a special tag --> https://wordpress.org/download/ - Plone: no special label for target groups, only legacy, old-stable, stable --> https://plone.org/download - Gimp: no special label for target groups, only current stable version --> https://www.gimp.org/downloads/ - GnuCash: no label --> https://www.gnucash.org/ and what about the software, TDF uses for it's website?: - Silverstripe: no special label --> https://www.silverstripe.org/download/ Regards, Andreas -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Comments to Proposals
Dear Mike, Thank you for the clarification. I was in a perception that we will have to distinguish between the versions which are supporting enterprise and that for normal users. I am wondering how this labeling (tagline) will make people aware if there is no distinguishing factors in offering. Matching customer demand with offering is our aim right? IMHO, probably we need to do a customer segmentation and match the customer with our offering to improve awareness and usability. Please let me know if I am missing something here. (May be I have missed some points in between during very active and long discussion). Sincerely, Sreekanth Sent from ProtonMail mobile Original Message On 12 Nov 2020, 14:41, Mike Saunders wrote: > Hi Sreekanth, > > On 11/11/2020 18:34, Sreekanth V K wrote: >> >> Have a single Installer file of very small size which will download easily. >> Then this installer would allow to user to select standard or premium >> versions > > Just to be clear, there will be no "premium" version from TDF or > anything like that, so there will be nothing to select. LibreOffice > isn't changing in any way -- it stays exactly as it is, with all the > features, and new features in every release. > > So there will be no "versions" to select. This is entirely, 100% about > the tagline, and how to make users aware of LibreOffice-based apps from > the ecosystem, which may be better suited for enterprise users. > > So a comparison table is indeed one idea, but it raises a lot of > questions: which apps from which ecosystem members do we include, which > features do we include etc. IMO it's far simpler to just segment users > quickly: Are you deploying LibreOffice in a large business? Check out > what the ecosystem offers. But you can also get the community-supported > version from TDF. > > Mike > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] MARKETING PLAN: Recap of Discussion and Potential Labels
On 11/12/20 5:58 PM, Telesto wrote: >> My task is to put together a marketing plan which works, then the board >> may decide in a different direction (IMHO, using the "community" label >> would make the marketing plan uselss and would not allow to reach the >> objective, which is the sustainability of the project). > I not totally following. In which way would they community label hurt > they marketing plan? Because "community" would be meaningless outside the open source community, as 99.9% of LibreOffice users - those outside the open source community - would not understand or misunderstand the term, while inside the open source community would represent the feature limited version of an open core product, which does not correspond to reality. In any case, the discussion is now focused in the right direction, to find a positioning for LibreOffice - released by TDF - which is not the same as that of LibreOffice released by ecosystem companies, and is easy to understand for the users (not the community members). -- Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] MARKETING PLAN: Some Proposals
Hi Sophie, On 12/11/2020 15.25, sophi wrote: >> From my personal understanding, "rolling" isn't what I'd use to describe >> the LibreOffice release process (where there is a release schedule in >> advance and features/bugfixes/bugs always enter with a distinct new >> release, not "at any unknown point in time", as can happen for rolling >> releases like OpenSUSE Tumbleweed or Debian unstable where new packages >> can enter at any point in time). >> >> IMHO, "Semi-annual Edition" would match our release model more >> precisely, since we have two new major releases every year, and it would >> make clear that whoever uses these versions should be prepared to >> upgrade to the next version every 6 months (as opposed to LTS versions). >>> CREATIVE: I feel this proposal closer to what I wrote for >>> ROLLING/TUMBLEWEED and indeed, I like it. :) > > I agree with you. But I find the rolling concept interesting too. I wouldn't say I don't find the rolling release concept interesting in general, but switching to a rolling release model would IMHO at least also require a fundamental change to our development process, otherwise I'd really be worried about stability and the overall user experience of TDF releases (assuming rolling release basically means "build from current git master branch every N weeks/months"). >> "Creative" sounds good, but at least from my personal user perspective, >> I'd probably wonder at first whether "Creative Edition" is the right one >> for me, since I don't feel that what I'm usually doing with LibreOffice >> is particularly creative (like writing some official letters from time >> to time or do some calculations in a spreadsheet). :) > > Oh, I've seen official letters made in very creative ways, like > embedding tables in tables in the header, free styles, empty paragraphs > to jump to the next page, etc. ;-) Oh, very true, I've seen very creative documents in my work context as well. My own personal ones are very boring, though. ;) > The label aims to qualify the product more than the way the user will > use it. If you look at the rationale I gave for the word, they are > mostly talking about the project and the product. Only the last one > could be considered as directed to the user, a reference to commons > universally accessible. That makes sense. The above was just what my own first impression as a user would have been; it certainly wouldn't have kept me from using the product. :) Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] MARKETING PLAN: Recap of Discussion and Potential Labels
On 11/12/20 4:36 PM, Marc Paré wrote: > Sorry for being a "pain" about this, but I believe some of us still have > the preference of "Community Edition" or "Community Unsupported". It has been explained several times that the label is not supposed to please community members, but is supposed to communicate to the outside world. So, I have explained why "community" is not a good choice, because inside the open source community is distinctive for a version with less features from an "open core" project (and LibreOffice is not open core) and outside the open source community has a different meaning, which is misleading for non technical users of desktop software. > Should these not also be part of the list? Or have they been discounted > as possible labels? If they have been dropped as possible terms, by what > process would they have been dropped and by whom? They message I have just sent to the mailing list explains why many labels have been dropped. Based on the discussion, the focus is now on the concept of a "rolling" release, and "community", "personal", and other labels are not in line with this focus. > Should not the final decision go to a membership vote? I am assuming it > would be strange for the board to go against a membership decision? My task is to put together a marketing plan which works, then the board may decide in a different direction (IMHO, using the "community" label would make the marketing plan uselss and would not allow to reach the objective, which is the sustainability of the project). -- Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Comments to Proposals
On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 3:18 PM Marc Paré wrote: > Le 2020-11-12 à 09 h 28, Simon Phipps a écrit : > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 2:31 PM Mike Saunders < > > mike.saund...@documentfoundation.org> wrote: > > > >> I made this mock-up for a download page update (of course, the "Edition" > >> tagline is still open for discussion): > >> > >> > >> > https://blog.documentfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/download_page_concept.png > >> > >> But I think something like that would be good: segment users early on, > >> pushing businesses towards the ecosystem offerings, while making it > >> clear that the TDF version only has community support. But still giving > >> everyone the freedom to do what they choose. > >> > >> What do you think? > > > > Lovely work, as ever Mike! Thanks for doing it. > > > > The problem with both the "Community Edition" tag and the whole approach > > becomes much clearer with this illustration though. There is absolutely > no > > reason I and the two people I work with in my business should not use > this > > version, but the wording comes across as quite hostile to us. We are not > > (in this role) technology enthusiasts, early adopters or power users, but > > neither do we fit in the old-fashioned view of a "business user" arising > > from the old days when people worked in offices and had an IT department. > > > > We just want it to deal with the dinosaurs who don't operate purely > online > > like we do! We are never going to pay for a support contract, and as far > as > > I know there is no-one offering case-based paid support anyway. If we > loved > > the product we would probably want to make "gratitude" payments to > > developers occasionally. > > > > The description that would apply to our use is "Unsupported > > official edition", making clear there is absolutely no problem for us to > > use this download and that we can't expect any help beyond Googling it if > > we have problems. > > > > Cheers! > > > > Simon > > > Simon, I am a little concerned that we are starting to mix more and more > our open source project which is a non-profit/charitable entity and > enterprise. In Canada we have strict laws governing charitable entities > where one who has a conflict of interest is usually not able to "profit" > from any discussions at board level. Thus, in many discussion/decisions > at board level, anyone with conflict of interest must recuse themselves > from any discussions/decisions. As well, a charitable entity has to be > careful when getting involved in any kind of "for-profit" actions as > this may cause the revocation of the charitable status of the group. > > I am not sure of any other countries that may have similar laws/rules as > in Canada, but, the TDF and LibreOffice may want to be careful in how it > involves itself in "for-profit" ventures as it may have legal liability > issues for anyone participating or seeking to join the TDF board where > they may find themselves, as per their own native country laws on > charitable board rules. I am not sure, but even if the TDF is regulated > by German laws, that, should any liability issues arise against any TDF > board member from another country, there may arise a case where one > could apply the member's native country's charitable laws. > > There should be a clear separation of charitable from enterprise > involvement of both. > > Perhaps you could tell us if this should be considered before we start > getting the TDF/LibreOffice more involved in preparing any enterprise > marketing plans. We should be careful as to not put any of our board > members role on the board in any kind of jeopardy. > I'm unclear why you are addressing this to me? I am responding to the proposal to segment for business use (by saying much business use is in fact indistinguishable from personal use), not advocating it. We should not be using any terminology that would discourage a new user of the software. That's also why I very much dislike the term "Community Edition" as it is closely associated with the monetisation of software by an "open core" approach, something TDF has no time for. S. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] MARKETING PLAN: Recap of Discussion and Potential Labels
Le 2020-11-12 à 10 h 26, Italo Vignoli a écrit : > Based on the discussion on the marketing mailing list and during the > call, we are now focusing on a different concept: i.e. the LibreOffice > version released by TDF positioned as a "rolling" product, versus a more > stable version optimized for enterprises and released by the ecosystem. > > Just to be clear, nothing would prevent an enterprise to adopt the > "rolling" product, apart from the fact that it will be clear that such a > product is not professionally supported and is not providing a stability > over the long term as often requested by enterprises. > > Of course, the approach has just been outlined, so we will have to work > hard at positioning and messaging - and all collaterals - to transform > it into a viable go to market strategy. > > Because of this approach, we are now focusing on the following labels > for the LibreOffice version released by TDF: > > ROLLING: Rolling is a techie term for OSS advocates, based on several > Linux distros, although not popular amongst users provides a feeling of > something which is not perfectly stable, and as such could be used - but > the deployment should be carefully studied - to provide a message for > enterprises. IMHO sub-optimal but probably acceptable. > > CREATIVE: Has a positive connotation which expresses the creativity of > the community reflected in the product. Creative lets you feel that it's > in progress, will go further by iterations just like when you write a > book, or design a painting. And it's how is our release process compared > to LTS. > > Alternatives to ROLLING and CREATIVE, based on the concept of something > moving forward, could be: ADVANCE, DYNAMIC, EVOLUTION / EVOLVING, LOOP, > NONSTOP, ONGOING, PACE, PROGRESSIVE, STEP / STEPS, STRETCH / STRIDE. I > have made a quick search, so there might be other options. > > Each work has pros and cons, and each one - if selected - will have to > go through a SWOT (strengths, weakness, opportunities, threats) and a > PEST (politics, economics, social, technology) process before any > deployment. > > Thanks to all the people who have contributed to the discussion so far, > and will contribute in the next few days. > Sorry for being a "pain" about this, but I believe some of us still have the preference of "Community Edition" or "Community Unsupported". Should these not also be part of the list? Or have they been discounted as possible labels? If they have been dropped as possible terms, by what process would they have been dropped and by whom? Should not the final decision go to a membership vote? I am assuming it would be strange for the board to go against a membership decision? Marc -- Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com https://www.parEntreprise.com parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF) parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org LibreOffice Office Suite - 200 million users and growing! Over 1,000 project developers with impeccable help from its user base. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-marketing] MARKETING PLAN: Recap of Discussion and Potential Labels
Based on the discussion on the marketing mailing list and during the call, we are now focusing on a different concept: i.e. the LibreOffice version released by TDF positioned as a "rolling" product, versus a more stable version optimized for enterprises and released by the ecosystem. Just to be clear, nothing would prevent an enterprise to adopt the "rolling" product, apart from the fact that it will be clear that such a product is not professionally supported and is not providing a stability over the long term as often requested by enterprises. Of course, the approach has just been outlined, so we will have to work hard at positioning and messaging - and all collaterals - to transform it into a viable go to market strategy. Because of this approach, we are now focusing on the following labels for the LibreOffice version released by TDF: ROLLING: Rolling is a techie term for OSS advocates, based on several Linux distros, although not popular amongst users provides a feeling of something which is not perfectly stable, and as such could be used - but the deployment should be carefully studied - to provide a message for enterprises. IMHO sub-optimal but probably acceptable. CREATIVE: Has a positive connotation which expresses the creativity of the community reflected in the product. Creative lets you feel that it's in progress, will go further by iterations just like when you write a book, or design a painting. And it's how is our release process compared to LTS. Alternatives to ROLLING and CREATIVE, based on the concept of something moving forward, could be: ADVANCE, DYNAMIC, EVOLUTION / EVOLVING, LOOP, NONSTOP, ONGOING, PACE, PROGRESSIVE, STEP / STEPS, STRETCH / STRIDE. I have made a quick search, so there might be other options. Each work has pros and cons, and each one - if selected - will have to go through a SWOT (strengths, weakness, opportunities, threats) and a PEST (politics, economics, social, technology) process before any deployment. Thanks to all the people who have contributed to the discussion so far, and will contribute in the next few days. -- Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Comments to Proposals
Le 2020-11-12 à 09 h 28, Simon Phipps a écrit : > On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 2:31 PM Mike Saunders < > mike.saund...@documentfoundation.org> wrote: > >> I made this mock-up for a download page update (of course, the "Edition" >> tagline is still open for discussion): >> >> >> https://blog.documentfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/download_page_concept.png >> >> But I think something like that would be good: segment users early on, >> pushing businesses towards the ecosystem offerings, while making it >> clear that the TDF version only has community support. But still giving >> everyone the freedom to do what they choose. >> >> What do you think? > > Lovely work, as ever Mike! Thanks for doing it. > > The problem with both the "Community Edition" tag and the whole approach > becomes much clearer with this illustration though. There is absolutely no > reason I and the two people I work with in my business should not use this > version, but the wording comes across as quite hostile to us. We are not > (in this role) technology enthusiasts, early adopters or power users, but > neither do we fit in the old-fashioned view of a "business user" arising > from the old days when people worked in offices and had an IT department. > > We just want it to deal with the dinosaurs who don't operate purely online > like we do! We are never going to pay for a support contract, and as far as > I know there is no-one offering case-based paid support anyway. If we loved > the product we would probably want to make "gratitude" payments to > developers occasionally. > > The description that would apply to our use is "Unsupported > official edition", making clear there is absolutely no problem for us to > use this download and that we can't expect any help beyond Googling it if > we have problems. > > Cheers! > > Simon > Simon, I am a little concerned that we are starting to mix more and more our open source project which is a non-profit/charitable entity and enterprise. In Canada we have strict laws governing charitable entities where one who has a conflict of interest is usually not able to "profit" from any discussions at board level. Thus, in many discussion/decisions at board level, anyone with conflict of interest must recuse themselves from any discussions/decisions. As well, a charitable entity has to be careful when getting involved in any kind of "for-profit" actions as this may cause the revocation of the charitable status of the group. I am not sure of any other countries that may have similar laws/rules as in Canada, but, the TDF and LibreOffice may want to be careful in how it involves itself in "for-profit" ventures as it may have legal liability issues for anyone participating or seeking to join the TDF board where they may find themselves, as per their own native country laws on charitable board rules. I am not sure, but even if the TDF is regulated by German laws, that, should any liability issues arise against any TDF board member from another country, there may arise a case where one could apply the member's native country's charitable laws. There should be a clear separation of charitable from enterprise involvement of both. Perhaps you could tell us if this should be considered before we start getting the TDF/LibreOffice more involved in preparing any enterprise marketing plans. We should be careful as to not put any of our board members role on the board in any kind of jeopardy. Cheers, Marc -- Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com https://www.parEntreprise.com parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF) parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org LibreOffice Office Suite - 200 million users and growing! Over 1,000 project developers with impeccable help from its user base. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Comments to Proposals
Hi Simon, On 12/11/2020 15:28, Simon Phipps wrote: > > Lovely work, as ever Mike! Thanks for doing it. Thanks! The orange "Business users - click here" box seems to be well-accepted so far, so I'll generate the HTML and CSS in preparation. Let's see what other feedback there is, but that's something we could add to help segment users, even before the whole tagling topic is settled. > The description that would apply to our use is "Unsupported > official edition", making clear there is absolutely no problem for us to > use this download and that we can't expect any help beyond Googling it > if we have problems. I've been thinking about this too, but I wonder if some people will confuse "unsupported" with "unmaintained". Like, we wouldn't want end users to come along and think "What, this is no longer supported and just left here for legacy users" etc. Perhaps adding a date to each release would show that it's still maintained (as we do a revision every month), or some combination of "Maintained by TDF, but unsupported / supported by volunteers". Cheers, Mike -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] meeting now?
Le 2020-11-11 à 08 h 59, Uwe Altmann a écrit : > Hi > No one in the meeting at https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/plan ??? I was not able to attend. Could someone report on what was discussed? Did someone either record or take minutes? Marc -- Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com https://www.parEntreprise.com parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF) parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org LibreOffice Office Suite - 200 million users and growing! Over 1,000 project developers with impeccable help from its user base. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Comments to Proposals
On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 2:31 PM Mike Saunders < mike.saund...@documentfoundation.org> wrote: > > I made this mock-up for a download page update (of course, the "Edition" > tagline is still open for discussion): > > > https://blog.documentfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/download_page_concept.png > > But I think something like that would be good: segment users early on, > pushing businesses towards the ecosystem offerings, while making it > clear that the TDF version only has community support. But still giving > everyone the freedom to do what they choose. > > What do you think? Lovely work, as ever Mike! Thanks for doing it. The problem with both the "Community Edition" tag and the whole approach becomes much clearer with this illustration though. There is absolutely no reason I and the two people I work with in my business should not use this version, but the wording comes across as quite hostile to us. We are not (in this role) technology enthusiasts, early adopters or power users, but neither do we fit in the old-fashioned view of a "business user" arising from the old days when people worked in offices and had an IT department. We just want it to deal with the dinosaurs who don't operate purely online like we do! We are never going to pay for a support contract, and as far as I know there is no-one offering case-based paid support anyway. If we loved the product we would probably want to make "gratitude" payments to developers occasionally. The description that would apply to our use is "Unsupported official edition", making clear there is absolutely no problem for us to use this download and that we can't expect any help beyond Googling it if we have problems. Cheers! Simon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] MARKETING PLAN: Some Proposals
Hi Michael,
Le 12/11/2020 à 14:54, Michael Weghorn a écrit :
> Hi Marina, everyone,
>
>
> On 11/11/2020 11.09, Marina Latini wrote:> PERSONAL: always with this
> target-origin approach, I'm missing the
>> origin here. Which tag should be used for example by the Limux project
>> or by SUSE or by all the others that are investing in our project with a
>> contract with one of the ecosystem companies for fixing specific issues
>> without using their LTS branded version? Why we should ask to these
>> contributors to use a personal tag giving the wrong impression to their
>> users that the software is for "for personal use only" and they are the
>> "bad folks" not contributing to our open source project in the proper way?
>
> I completely agree with this and pretty much everything you wrote. :)
>
>>
>> ROLLING/TUMBLEWEED: I can be biased here as openSUSE community member
>> but "rolling" is not only something unstable. ;)
>> Look for example at openSUSE Tumbleweed. The distro is a rolling one, in
>> constant evolution, it's true, you can get all the updated software
>> available from upstream projects and the distro has in any case a really
>> extensive quality work done by SUSE, its partners and by the openSUSE
>> community. At the end, this tumbleweed concept is not like using a
>> master version of LibreOffice but is closer to chose fresh instead of
>> still. ;)
>> The concept of rolling is something that I really like. it's a shared
>> effort from all the contributors (volunteers, ecosystem and investors)
>> to deliver something that works as expected without providing a long
>> term support version. With this rolling concept I can't see a negative
>> outcome also for public administrations like Munich or companies like
>> SUSE supporting our project in a different way. I like "tumbleweed" more
>> than rolling to be honest but if this concept will be selected we can
>> try to find a more effective and visual word too.
>
> A tag in that direction ("something that works as expected without
> providing a long term support version") sounds good to me.
>
> From my personal understanding, "rolling" isn't what I'd use to describe
> the LibreOffice release process (where there is a release schedule in
> advance and features/bugfixes/bugs always enter with a distinct new
> release, not "at any unknown point in time", as can happen for rolling
> releases like OpenSUSE Tumbleweed or Debian unstable where new packages
> can enter at any point in time).
>
> IMHO, "Semi-annual Edition" would match our release model more
> precisely, since we have two new major releases every year, and it would
> make clear that whoever uses these versions should be prepared to
> upgrade to the next version every 6 months (as opposed to LTS versions).
>> CREATIVE: I feel this proposal closer to what I wrote for
>> ROLLING/TUMBLEWEED and indeed, I like it. :)
I agree with you. But I find the rolling concept interesting too.
>
> "Creative" sounds good, but at least from my personal user perspective,
> I'd probably wonder at first whether "Creative Edition" is the right one
> for me, since I don't feel that what I'm usually doing with LibreOffice
> is particularly creative (like writing some official letters from time
> to time or do some calculations in a spreadsheet). :)
Oh, I've seen official letters made in very creative ways, like
embedding tables in tables in the header, free styles, empty paragraphs
to jump to the next page, etc. ;-)
The label aims to qualify the product more than the way the user will
use it. If you look at the rationale I gave for the word, they are
mostly talking about the project and the product. Only the last one
could be considered as directed to the user, a reference to commons
universally accessible.
Same for Spring and its different meanings: it's one of the 4 seasons
(like our cycle of releases), it's the source of the water (the origin
of all the editions) and resilience reflecting how united our community is.
Cheers
Sophie
--
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GSM: +33683901545
IRC: sophi
Foundation coordinator
The Document Foundation
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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] MARKETING PLAN: Some Proposals
Hi Marina, everyone,
On 11/11/2020 11.09, Marina Latini wrote:> PERSONAL: always with this
target-origin approach, I'm missing the
> origin here. Which tag should be used for example by the Limux project
> or by SUSE or by all the others that are investing in our project with a
> contract with one of the ecosystem companies for fixing specific issues
> without using their LTS branded version? Why we should ask to these
> contributors to use a personal tag giving the wrong impression to their
> users that the software is for "for personal use only" and they are the
> "bad folks" not contributing to our open source project in the proper way?
I completely agree with this and pretty much everything you wrote. :)
>
> ROLLING/TUMBLEWEED: I can be biased here as openSUSE community member
> but "rolling" is not only something unstable. ;)
> Look for example at openSUSE Tumbleweed. The distro is a rolling one, in
> constant evolution, it's true, you can get all the updated software
> available from upstream projects and the distro has in any case a really
> extensive quality work done by SUSE, its partners and by the openSUSE
> community. At the end, this tumbleweed concept is not like using a
> master version of LibreOffice but is closer to chose fresh instead of
> still. ;)
> The concept of rolling is something that I really like. it's a shared
> effort from all the contributors (volunteers, ecosystem and investors)
> to deliver something that works as expected without providing a long
> term support version. With this rolling concept I can't see a negative
> outcome also for public administrations like Munich or companies like
> SUSE supporting our project in a different way. I like "tumbleweed" more
> than rolling to be honest but if this concept will be selected we can
> try to find a more effective and visual word too.
A tag in that direction ("something that works as expected without
providing a long term support version") sounds good to me.
From my personal understanding, "rolling" isn't what I'd use to describe
the LibreOffice release process (where there is a release schedule in
advance and features/bugfixes/bugs always enter with a distinct new
release, not "at any unknown point in time", as can happen for rolling
releases like OpenSUSE Tumbleweed or Debian unstable where new packages
can enter at any point in time).
IMHO, "Semi-annual Edition" would match our release model more
precisely, since we have two new major releases every year, and it would
make clear that whoever uses these versions should be prepared to
upgrade to the next version every 6 months (as opposed to LTS versions).
> CREATIVE: I feel this proposal closer to what I wrote for
> ROLLING/TUMBLEWEED and indeed, I like it. :)
"Creative" sounds good, but at least from my personal user perspective,
I'd probably wonder at first whether "Creative Edition" is the right one
for me, since I don't feel that what I'm usually doing with LibreOffice
is particularly creative (like writing some official letters from time
to time or do some calculations in a spreadsheet). :)
Michael
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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Comments to Proposals
Hi Mike, everyone, On 11/11/2020 15.30, Mike Saunders wrote: >> You may have noticed my suggestion - somewhere past weeks - on a simple >> but a clear change in the download, where every professional/business >> user immediately notices the situation, without putting any limitation >> in the freedom for anyone. > > I made this mock-up for a download page update (of course, the "Edition" > tagline is still open for discussion): > > https://blog.documentfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/download_page_concept.png I generally like the mockup - thanks for that. I second what Justin said regarding the descriptions (the new one can be misleading, and the existing one for "still" even explicitly says "For business deployments, we strongly recommend support from certified partners which also offer long-term support versions of LibreOffice.", so the point should be rather clear). > But I think something like that would be good: segment users early on, > pushing businesses towards the ecosystem offerings, while making it > clear that the TDF version only has community support. But still giving > everyone the freedom to do what they choose. > > What do you think? I fully agree, and think that the download page is and ideal place to "educate" potential users about it. Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Comments to Proposals
Hi Sreekanth, On 11/11/2020 18:34, Sreekanth V K wrote: > > Have a single Installer file of very small size which will download easily. > Then this installer would allow to user to select standard or premium versions Just to be clear, there will be no "premium" version from TDF or anything like that, so there will be nothing to select. LibreOffice isn't changing in any way -- it stays exactly as it is, with all the features, and new features in every release. So there will be no "versions" to select. This is entirely, 100% about the tagline, and how to make users aware of LibreOffice-based apps from the ecosystem, which may be better suited for enterprise users. So a comparison table is indeed one idea, but it raises a lot of questions: which apps from which ecosystem members do we include, which features do we include etc. IMO it's far simpler to just segment users quickly: Are you deploying LibreOffice in a large business? Check out what the ecosystem offers. But you can also get the community-supported version from TDF. Mike -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
