Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Drew, 2011/5/12 drew d...@baseanswers.com On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0300, luiz wrote: Hi, On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as TDF members/founders. I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. Eliane Domingos is the fourth. //drew Hi Luiz. It was simply that I knew there was at least four members from Brasil - I recalled seeing a blog by Olivier Hallot on the subject. http://olivierhallot.blogspot.com/2011/05/novo-membro-da-document-foundation.html You are going places in your reply however where I have no business going. Best wishes, Drew As far as I can tell, this link is quite clear: http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/ I don't see Eliane Domingos in that list. Best, Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Luiz, 2011/5/12 luiz lcolui...@gmail.com Hi, On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as TDF members/founders. I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. Eliane Domingos is the fourth. //drew I'm very curious to know what the criterion for immediate her acceptance. And the Paulo refused. Most translations of the Brazilian portal (pt-br.libreoffice.org) was that he didand other contributors, but who signed? I answer: Eliane and Gustavo and Olivier... So all this discussion, Luiz, seems to really be about the fact that the Brazilian community has interpersonal problems. And now you are now second-guessing and badmouthing the Membership committee (of which I'm not part). Obviously this may not exactly be the best way to carry your message You know why only Olivier translates LibreOffice (l10n)to Brazilian portuguese? Because he does not let anyone else help. Now, Rogério Luz is trying to help. But I think it is not easy. Perhaps it's because this is the marketing list and you don't feel bound by the reality of development and localization process. Just take a look at the l10n infrastructure and process, and you might realize that your words are not very credible. We've released LibreOffice 3.3, 3.3.1, 3.3.2, and we're now on beta stage of the 3.4. After 7 months you are complaining you 're being bullied by Olivier? Sorry, but I get the feeling that your accusations become more extreme at each email. Best, Charles. Luiz Oliveira -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-marketing] Re: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Charles, You wrote: Drew, 2011/5/12 drew d...@baseanswers.com On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0300, luiz wrote: Hi, On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as TDF members/founders. I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. Eliane Domingos is the fourth. //drew Hi Luiz. It was simply that I knew there was at least four members from Brasil - I recalled seeing a blog by Olivier Hallot on the subject. http://olivierhallot.blogspot.com/2011/05/novo-membro-da-document-foundation.html You are going places in your reply however where I have no business going. Best wishes, Drew As far as I can tell, this link is quite clear: http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/ I don't see Eliane Domingos in that list. So don't comment on what you expect, but read what is written: Paulo did refer to founding members and actual TDF members. Please have a look here: http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/ Regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE : [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Le 12 mai 2011, 10:01 AM, Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at a écrit : Charles, You wrote: Drew, 2011/5/12 drew d...@baseanswers.comOn Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0... So don't comment on what you expect, but read what is written: Paulo did refer to founding members and actual TDF members. Please have a look here: http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/ Regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http:/... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hi all, On 12/05/2011 11:00, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Charles, You wrote: Drew, 2011/5/12 drewd...@baseanswers.com On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0300, luiz wrote: Hi, On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as TDF members/founders. I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. Eliane Domingos is the fourth. //drew Hi Luiz. It was simply that I knew there was at least four members from Brasil - I recalled seeing a blog by Olivier Hallot on the subject. http://olivierhallot.blogspot.com/2011/05/novo-membro-da-document-foundation.html You are going places in your reply however where I have no business going. Best wishes, Drew As far as I can tell, this link is quite clear: http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/ I don't see Eliane Domingos in that list. So don't comment on what you expect, but read what is written: Paulo did refer to founding members and actual TDF members. But as a member of the committee, what I see is that Paulo membership application is in review and have not been refused nor accepted. So this is simply not true that we have favored anybody here, and the review period is necessary for us when we have to check the participation, even more in another language than English. We are just volunteers trying to get the things correctly done too. And if there is an issue with a decision of the committee, feel free to claim for explanation on the steering discuss list. Thanks in advance Kind regards Sophie Please have a look here: http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/ Regards Bernhard -- Founding member of The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE : [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Bernhard, I'm not commenting on what I expect. Paulo's sentence if yesterday was quite clear. There aren't 4 brazilian founders of tdf, and I sure hope there will be more than 4 brazilian members of TDF. But then I find that reasoning on the base of nationality is not the best way to look at our membership... Charles. Le 12 mai 2011, 10:01 AM, Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at a écrit : Charles, You wrote: Drew, 2011/5/12 drew d...@baseanswers.comOn Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0... So don't comment on what you expect, but read what is written: Paulo did refer to founding members and actual TDF members. Please have a look here: http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/ Regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http:/... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hi Bernhard , Unfortunately, Charles sees only what he wants and just says what he wants. Not really concerned about the serious issues we are bringing. Luiz Charles, You wrote: Drew, 2011/5/12 drew d...@baseanswers.com On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0300, luiz wrote: Hi, On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as TDF members/founders. I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. Eliane Domingos is the fourth. //drew Hi Luiz. It was simply that I knew there was at least four members from Brasil - I recalled seeing a blog by Olivier Hallot on the subject. http://olivierhallot.blogspot.com/2011/05/novo-membro-da-document-foundation.html You are going places in your reply however where I have no business going. Best wishes, Drew As far as I can tell, this link is quite clear: http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/ I don't see Eliane Domingos in that list. So don't comment on what you expect, but read what is written: Paulo did refer to founding members and actual TDF members. Please have a look here: http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/ Regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: RE : [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Good morning/afternoon/evening/night for all. First of all: sorry for the top posting. Please, guys I think we can let this issue about membership go, only thinking about some simple facts: 1 - Charles garantee us he is taking objetive criteria for new membership submission. I think it's true. 2 - If this is true, I suppose those criteria are (please correct me if I am mistaken): member's activities on wiki, pootle, silverstripe, ODFAuthors, mailing lists, etc. 3 - A subjetive criteria is being used, that is an opinion of one or more older members. Based on this facts, I must conclude that: 1 - Eliane's activities on Silver Stripe were counted to the score. Eliane has no English skills to translate all those pages from libreoffice.org to pt-br.libreoffice.org, so, in last December/January, she asked me, Rui and Rogério to translate them and send translations to her in PVT e-mails. To shut up our voices, she had included our photos in a separated credits page in pt-br.libreoffice.org. This is well documented in the history of silver stripe and in our mailing lists. So, I suppose that the copy and paste girl used our work to sum scores and become elegible. And this is what I mean when I say they were acting like a proxy between Brazilian Community and TDF. And that behavior was the last drop for us to start a rebelion against those people. 2 - Charles must be asked for Olivier/David/Gustavo's opinion about Eliane Domingues, which should be the best possible, I suppose. Again, Olivier can have been lied to us, because some days ago he told us he was not contacted by anyone about this issue, in one of our mailing lists. Or, possibly, Charles could have forgotten to do that... I don't know. In this case, only the objective criteria should be considered. Based on those evidences, we must ask for your attention to some things: 1 - We have asked for a second admin account to Pootle for Claudio F. Filho. It isn't a confortable situation to have only one admin and this one are not trusted. This request were made some times before and denied. 2 - The system you are using for membership submission isn't the state of art, but it's the one you have. It should be reviewed. I won't ask for you to review Eliane's membership submission. That's your job to decide that based on the evidences and in your will. We have enough evidences even to accuse her of unauthorized use of our work for self benefit. But I think, only the fact we know that is enough. I don't think we could separate what part of that work belongs to each one of us, at this time. So I will not request a revision of her score. I think each one of us has the skills and the will to show up our jobs and sum those scores again. I also think things are cleared, at last. Now, we all must clean this mess and go to work. And there's a lot of work to do!!! I think the requests made by Bernard in the other e-mail are quite fair, and all of them will be done asap. I finish here my contribution to this topic. Thanks a lot for hearing us. My best regards to all of you. 2011/5/12 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org Bernhard, I'm not commenting on what I expect. Paulo's sentence if yesterday was quite clear. There aren't 4 brazilian founders of tdf, and I sure hope there will be more than 4 brazilian members of TDF. But then I find that reasoning on the base of nationality is not the best way to look at our membership... Charles. Le 12 mai 2011, 10:01 AM, Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at a écrit : Charles, You wrote: Drew, 2011/5/12 drew d...@baseanswers.comOn Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0... So don't comment on what you expect, but read what is written: Paulo did refer to founding members and actual TDF members. Please have a look here: http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/ Regards Bernhard -- http://pt-br.libreoffice.org Paulo de Souza Lima Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador http://www.pasl.net.br http://almalivre.wordpress.com Curitiba - PR Linux User #432358 Ubuntu User #28729 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE : Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Luiz, You do make accusations against people who are founders or members of TDF. TDF cannot sort out the issues that have happened outside of itself. Now, if you make accusations on something that happened in this project (not inside your NGO) please address them to the SC with facts. You claimed Olivier didn't accept others' contributions on Pootle. Please, let's check our logs. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? And can we please go back on doing marketing on this list? Thank you, Charles. Le 12 mai 2011, 1:49 PM, luiz lcolui...@gmail.com a écrit : Charles, You escape the central questions raised. I'm not making accusations, I'm bringing facts here in Brazil and TDF should at least find out if what I'm saying is true or not instead of accusing me of lying as you are doing. By the way, you are a Olivier's lawyer? I'm seeing some things very clear after this discussion. Another message stated that it is necessary sponsorship to be a member of TDF. I want to believe that Olivier was godfather Eliane Domingos, which is perfectly normal. But he denies this, as it can be seen here: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/pt-br/usuarios/msg00785.html Then I ask who's lying? Luiz Luiz, 2011/5/12 luiz lcolui...@gmail.com Hi, On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, ... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http:/... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
On 5/12/11 2:09 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima wrote: I think we can let this issue about membership go Membership issues should be addresses to the membership committee. This is a marketing list, and membership issues do not belong to marketing. -- Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com mobile +39.348.5653829 VoIP +39.02.320621813 skype italovignoli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: RE : Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hi! This is probably my first post in the list, but I've followed all the discussion closely Everything that Paulo and Luiz are arguing has basement and I agree with them because I also experienced the many attempts of manipulation. Even say that I had some work literally hijacked, so that it could accelerate the translation of the libreoffice.org portal to pt-br. So what are the reasons for them to do so? I summarize in two words: self-promotion and market reserve. Best regards! Rui Ogawa tenção! Caso haja documentos de escritório anexados neste e-mail, eles poderão estar no formato ODF, um padrão aberto, gratuito e homologado pela ISO e ABNT. Para abrir e editá-los, basta baixar e instalar o LibreOffice.org em http://libreoffice.org/download. Quer a estabilidade do Debian e a facilidade do Mint? Experimente Linux Mint Debian Edition! http://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.phphttp://www.ubuntu-br.org/ 2011/5/12 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org Luiz, You do make accusations against people who are founders or members of TDF. TDF cannot sort out the issues that have happened outside of itself. Now, if you make accusations on something that happened in this project (not inside your NGO) please address them to the SC with facts. You claimed Olivier didn't accept others' contributions on Pootle. Please, let's check our logs. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? And can we please go back on doing marketing on this list? Thank you, Charles. Le 12 mai 2011, 1:49 PM, luiz lcolui...@gmail.com a écrit : Charles, You escape the central questions raised. I'm not making accusations, I'm bringing facts here in Brazil and TDF should at least find out if what I'm saying is true or not instead of accusing me of lying as you are doing. By the way, you are a Olivier's lawyer? I'm seeing some things very clear after this discussion. Another message stated that it is necessary sponsorship to be a member of TDF. I want to believe that Olivier was godfather Eliane Domingos, which is perfectly normal. But he denies this, as it can be seen here: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/pt-br/usuarios/msg00785.html Then I ask who's lying? Luiz Luiz, 2011/5/12 luiz lcolui...@gmail.com Hi, On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, ... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http:/... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hi Em 11-05-2011 09:28, Paulo de Souza Lima escreveu: 2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulzcharles.sch...@documentfoundation.org I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, as another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio is also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't been more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling, perhaps I'm wrong. I am also surprised about the lack of participation of Olivier in this discussion. Claudio has his own personal problems and I can't speak for him. Really i am out by personal problems. But in other hand, i tried to alert in core@ list what happens here some months ago, and at final was a talk with some members of SC, without a conclusive feedback about this. However, going direct to point. * Domains * As Luiz told, i am talking with Florian about the domains. I already request to redirect www.tdf.org.br - www.tdf.org, and this question will be finished soon. The lib.o.br, was a thing that we discussed inside of our lists, because the broffice.org page is a *well know* in Brazil. Other thing is that we has different things inside of our page, like news about ODF/BrO/LibO, migrations, documentation and many other things, but is clear now that for TDF is not (more) interesting the BrOffice and its history. * Migration * As already was explained by Paulo, Luiz and others, we are migrating to wiki and SilverStripe, but is many content. Was only a job of 5 years in marketing that resulted in a installed base around 15M of desktops with Br/LibO in our country. But, ok. We will drop any idea of migration and point all to there and maintain the BrOffice.org yet. A curiosity about this point is that we have all other brazilian domains of each project, like mozilla.org.br and postgresql.org.br, working fine with the international projects, without problems, and with the respectively recognition of international institution or projects, like Mozilla Foundation and PostgreSQL. * Official and not official logos * About the warning in the redirect page in BrOffice.org, we are talking about the product. If you remember, before of 3.3.4 was BrOffice, and now LibreOffice. The brands are correct. About the logo in the main page without The Document Foundation, in the rules[1] say that for non-official use is to use the LibreOffice without the TDF. [1]http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Logo_Policy A strategy that did the difference here and that some neighboring countries are looking our (old!) model maybe is not more interesting. My two cents... Claudio -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Did someone from the Brazilian community ask David to explain this sentence or to have it removed? This information was added later trought the mkt-tdf-team (that I don't make part), just and only for tasks divisions, for supporting the new members access of the Portuguese language in the TDF-list. Every time I received any contact on my direct email, and it happens almost every day, I redirected to the pt_br-libreoffice list. However, I always said that everyone could read and write English, I also recommend the en-libreoffice-lists. In this tasks divisions, Olivier is the news TDF-contact in portuguese, I (as a speaker of some languages) was to help with the contact for the lists as above, and to link with other communities, when the Portuguese and English were still obstacles. Just that. Nothing more, nothing less. But if I should not do that anymore, Ok! No problem. MfG., David I think this issue should be submitted to Brazilian Community's mailing lists. That's all. The Community deliberates and decides. But I also think until that, you shall not introduce yourself as a representative, giving an impression that you are the only way for people to get there. I suggest, until things are over, you remove that phrase from your profile. Best regards. -- http://pt-br.libreoffice.org Paulo de Souza Lima Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador http://www.pasl.net.br http://almalivre.wordpress.com Curitiba - PR Linux User #432358 Ubuntu User #28729 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hi :) No. I think the work you all have been doing to migrate to better systems is great and should continue. Using a stepping stone is a clever way to avoid emergencies. It also means you have plenty of time to prepare the goal-website/domain so that it will work much better. A much better result than a hasty ill-considered move! It is becoming clearer and clearer that a lot of thought and planning has gone into this but the first few posts to the English lists made a few of us panic because it sounded too hasty. We know better now and are much happier. It is also good to hear that your old web-sites/domains will continue to exist for quite a while as that allows you to redirect people and gradually get the new names well known in places that have become familiar with the old names. I wish we could have had such an organised migration from OpenOffice to TDF and LibreOffice. Perhaps now that Oracle seem to have decided to drop OOo there might be some chance for us to make a better migration. Anyway, good luck and regards to all from Tom :) From: Claudio F Filho filh...@broffice.org To: marketing@libreoffice.org Sent: Thu, 12 May, 2011 13:55:54 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains Hi Em 11-05-2011 09:28, Paulo de Souza Lima escreveu: 2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulzcharles.sch...@documentfoundation.org I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, as another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio is also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't been more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling, perhaps I'm wrong. I am also surprised about the lack of participation of Olivier in this discussion. Claudio has his own personal problems and I can't speak for him. Really i am out by personal problems. But in other hand, i tried to alert in core@ list what happens here some months ago, and at final was a talk with some members of SC, without a conclusive feedback about this. However, going direct to point. * Domains * As Luiz told, i am talking with Florian about the domains. I already request to redirect www.tdf.org.br - www.tdf.org, and this question will be finished soon. The lib.o.br, was a thing that we discussed inside of our lists, because the broffice.org page is a *well know* in Brazil. Other thing is that we has different things inside of our page, like news about ODF/BrO/LibO, migrations, documentation and many other things, but is clear now that for TDF is not (more) interesting the BrOffice and its history. * Migration * As already was explained by Paulo, Luiz and others, we are migrating to wiki and SilverStripe, but is many content. Was only a job of 5 years in marketing that resulted in a installed base around 15M of desktops with Br/LibO in our country. But, ok. We will drop any idea of migration and point all to there and maintain the BrOffice.org yet. A curiosity about this point is that we have all other brazilian domains of each project, like mozilla.org.br and postgresql.org.br, working fine with the international projects, without problems, and with the respectively recognition of international institution or projects, like Mozilla Foundation and PostgreSQL. * Official and not official logos * About the warning in the redirect page in BrOffice.org, we are talking about the product. If you remember, before of 3.3.4 was BrOffice, and now LibreOffice. The brands are correct. About the logo in the main page without The Document Foundation, in the rules[1] say that for non-official use is to use the LibreOffice without the TDF. [1]http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Logo_Policy A strategy that did the difference here and that some neighboring countries are looking our (old!) model maybe is not more interesting. My two cents... Claudio -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Paulo, David, 2011/5/12 Paulo de Souza Lima paulo.s.l...@gmail.com Did someone from the Brazilian community ask David to explain this sentence or to have it removed? This information was added later trought the mkt-tdf-team (that I don't make part), just and only for tasks divisions, for supporting the new members access of the Portuguese language in the TDF-list. Every time I received any contact on my direct email, and it happens almost every day, I redirected to the pt_br-libreoffice list. However, I always said that everyone could read and write English, I also recommend the en-libreoffice-lists. In this tasks divisions, Olivier is the news TDF-contact in portuguese, I (as a speaker of some languages) was to help with the contact for the lists as above, and to link with other communities, when the Portuguese and English were still obstacles. Just that. Nothing more, nothing less. But if I should not do that anymore, Ok! No problem. MfG., David I think this issue should be submitted to Brazilian Community's mailing lists. That's all. The Community deliberates and decides. But I also think until that, you shall not introduce yourself as a representative, giving an impression that you are the only way for people to get there. I suggest, until things are over, you remove that phrase from your profile. This is a good point Paulo. Let me perhaps clarify one thing. At the TDF, at the moment, we have no representative of NGOs . Which means no one can claim their represent the French community, nor the Brazilian, etc. So I think now things should be very clear with respect to David. David is a founder of TDF, no more, no less. Having had a very nice and productive meeting with the french LibreOffice association I think we will have to work in the near future in a good and effective way to ackowledge and work with NGOs. This becomes necessary, whether in problematical cases or just for normal times. best Charles. Best regards. -- http://pt-br.libreoffice.org Paulo de Souza Lima Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador http://www.pasl.net.br http://almalivre.wordpress.com Curitiba - PR Linux User #432358 Ubuntu User #28729 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hello Claudio, 2011/5/12 Claudio F Filho filh...@broffice.org Hi Em 11-05-2011 09:28, Paulo de Souza Lima escreveu: 2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulzcharles.sch...@documentfoundation.org I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, as another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio is also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't been more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling, perhaps I'm wrong. I am also surprised about the lack of participation of Olivier in this discussion. Claudio has his own personal problems and I can't speak for him. Really i am out by personal problems. I hope you will be able to overcome them... But in other hand, i tried to alert in core@ list what happens here some months ago, and at final was a talk with some members of SC, without a conclusive feedback about this. However, going direct to point. * Domains * As Luiz told, i am talking with Florian about the domains. I already request to redirect www.tdf.org.br - www.tdf.org, and this question will be finished soon. The lib.o.br, was a thing that we discussed inside of our lists, because the broffice.org page is a *well know* in Brazil. Other thing is that we has different things inside of our page, like news about ODF/BrO/LibO, migrations, documentation and many other things, but is clear now that for TDF is not (more) interesting the BrOffice and its history. * Migration * As already was explained by Paulo, Luiz and others, we are migrating to wiki and SilverStripe, but is many content. Was only a job of 5 years in marketing that resulted in a installed base around 15M of desktops with Br/LibO in our country. But, ok. We will drop any idea of migration and point all to there and maintain the BrOffice.org yet. A curiosity about this point is that we have all other brazilian domains of each project, like mozilla.org.br and postgresql.org.br, working fine with the international projects, without problems, and with the respectively recognition of international institution or projects, like Mozilla Foundation and PostgreSQL. Each project has its own culture and needs... I would like to thank you again for working with us on this. * Official and not official logos * About the warning in the redirect page in BrOffice.org, we are talking about the product. If you remember, before of 3.3.4 was BrOffice, and now LibreOffice. The brands are correct. About the logo in the main page without The Document Foundation, in the rules[1] say that for non-official use is to use the LibreOffice without the TDF. [1]http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Logo_Policy A strategy that did the difference here and that some neighboring countries are looking our (old!) model maybe is not more interesting. My two cents... Thank you, Charles. Claudio -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hi :) Ok, i cut the thread down quite a LOT. The message seems to be 1. That the domains and websites are safe according to Paulo, Clovis and Bernhard (details differ but result is that things are safe) 2. The community and individuals are doing a gradual change-over to the new names in a smooth gradual way as laid out in much detail in many posts to this list. 3. Some redirects have gone a bit wrong and there are a few errors that may or may not be deliberate. This is normal and it's normal to be annoyed about it but it 'just' needs fixing. 4. Some people are not great at working with people but are superb at getting on with tasks they perceive as being vital. Again, that is normal. Hopefully we can fix some possibly wrong moves once the community has decided what needs to be done. If what has already been done is too different then hopefully we can move to what the community has decided. 5. We need to stop panicking and doing knee jerk reactions because (despite all the excitement) things seem to be progressing quite well!! Good luck and regards from Tom :) From: Paulo de Souza Lima paulo.s.l...@gmail.com To: marketing@libreoffice.org Sent: Wed, 11 May, 2011 2:32:57 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains 2011/5/10 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at Hi Paulo, all, Hi. Paulo S. Lima wrote: 2011/5/9 Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk [...] Paulo, is there a danger of losing the Brazilian websites due to Brazilian law? If that danger does exist then is it a problem that needs to be solved urgently? The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not completely undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is competely over, the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an NGO, not a person or a private company). If I understand you right, the domains have to be owned by an NGO, or they don't exist / are not accessible on the web. No.Every domain registration has a time to expire. When expiring is closing, the owner receives a message about it and, if he wants, he pays another fare and maintain that domain for another period of time (from 1 to 3 years, i think). If NGO ends its activities,domain will remain in it's name, until expiration. After that, it will be available for anyone (who has anlegalized brazilian NGO) to register it. And if they exist, Brazilian people know by their extension (.org.br), that they relate to an NGO dedicated to LibreOffice and TDF. When the present NGO is undone, the website will become inactive. No, the correct situation is: when the domain paid period expire. snip ... [lots of important comments that could (mostly) be in separate threads including mention of a redirect] ... /snip That's part of our strategy to switch from BrOffice to Libreoffice trade mark. The passes to slightly switch without chock people were: 1 - Put an advertise redirecting to the old website (but with the new domain). 2 - Move the domain to pt-br.libreoffice.org as soon as the most accessed content were migrated to TDF. 3 - End up the old website moving the remaining content to TDF or deleting stuff we don't need. snip ... [again, lots of important comments that could (mostly) be in separate threads] ... /snip Many thanks for allowing us to tell you our point of view. You are the first to do it. I expect more people begin to dialogue with us, instead of fighting us. We don't want to fight anybody. Brazilians are friendly people who love peace, fun and joy. This situation is very unpleasant. Kind regards http://pt-br.libreoffice.org Paulo de Souza Lima Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador http://www.pasl.net.br http://almalivre.wordpress.com Curitiba - PR Linux User #432358 Ubuntu User #28729 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Sorry, Charles, but it's not just that Claudio was in the shadows. We also have the David and Olivier there. And these two can not ignore what was discussed in open our local listings. Another thing, I think there is some confusion. Alta is a formal institution, from what I see. Colibre,however, is not. It was just a name we wanted to give to the Brazilian community to replaceGubro (BrOffice Users Group), which is a very interesting local project in the dissemination of the product. Regards, Luiz Oliveira Paulo, This is just a comment from my side as you keep asking a question that I feel I had answered before, but you believe I haven't, so let me answer to the question again. It's about your question on the North American LibreOffice DVD team and website and the Brazilian one. Take a look at the two website. The NA LibreOffice DVD team has a website that is focused on a DVD project, that encompasses multiple languages. It is not a traditional native-language team, to use the OOo parlance, and it does not try to even harbour the full TDF / LO colours and logos. The NA DVD team has formed and debated here, on this mailing lists and on others (website and discuss); they did this in the open for everyone to see, the SC knew about (or could not ignore it as it was happening here), and they were generally very delicate about trademarks, using of terms, etc. I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, as another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio is also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't been more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling, perhaps I'm wrong. TDF does not take sides, were it between ALTA and Colibre. Frankly we can't, we shouldn't, we won't. It's not our job. The situation is what it is, it's unfortunate, but we want to deal with the Brazilian community as a whole. It's a very tempting for you or others, to think TDF will take sides, even secretly. What TDF wants is to work and help the community work, that's it. We're not interested in local fightings, and should I need to write it again, the Brazilian community is most welcome here. It is your home. Best, Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Luiz, Possibly, but again we cannot take sides. The bottomline is, Claudio should have talked to us. Anyway, as for Colibre, my point is the same: TDF deals and works with the Brazilian community as a whole, not with one specific church. So, if it's a name, a NGO, anything, we will deal with the Brazilian community as a whole with the same respect and rights, as well as the same duties that are vested unto any other community. Best, Charles. Le Wed, 11 May 2011 08:28:32 -0300, luiz lcolui...@gmail.com a écrit : Sorry, Charles, but it's not just that Claudio was in the shadows. We also have the David and Olivier there. And these two can not ignore what was discussed in open our local listings. Another thing, I think there is some confusion. Alta is a formal institution, from what I see. Colibre,however, is not. It was just a name we wanted to give to the Brazilian community to replaceGubro (BrOffice Users Group), which is a very interesting local project in the dissemination of the product. Regards, Luiz Oliveira Paulo, This is just a comment from my side as you keep asking a question that I feel I had answered before, but you believe I haven't, so let me answer to the question again. It's about your question on the North American LibreOffice DVD team and website and the Brazilian one. Take a look at the two website. The NA LibreOffice DVD team has a website that is focused on a DVD project, that encompasses multiple languages. It is not a traditional native-language team, to use the OOo parlance, and it does not try to even harbour the full TDF / LO colours and logos. The NA DVD team has formed and debated here, on this mailing lists and on others (website and discuss); they did this in the open for everyone to see, the SC knew about (or could not ignore it as it was happening here), and they were generally very delicate about trademarks, using of terms, etc. I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, as another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio is also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't been more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling, perhaps I'm wrong. TDF does not take sides, were it between ALTA and Colibre. Frankly we can't, we shouldn't, we won't. It's not our job. The situation is what it is, it's unfortunate, but we want to deal with the Brazilian community as a whole. It's a very tempting for you or others, to think TDF will take sides, even secretly. What TDF wants is to work and help the community work, that's it. We're not interested in local fightings, and should I need to write it again, the Brazilian community is most welcome here. It is your home. Best, Charles. -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org Paulo, Good morning, Charles, This is just a comment from my side as you keep asking a question that I feel I had answered before, but you believe I haven't, so let me answer to the question again. It's about your question on the North American LibreOffice DVD team and website and the Brazilian one. Take a look at the two website. The NA LibreOffice DVD team has a website that is focused on a DVD project, that encompasses multiple languages. It is not a traditional native-language team, to use the OOo parlance, and it does not try to even harbour the full TDF / LO colours and logos. The NA DVD team has formed and debated here, on this mailing lists and on others (website and discuss); they did this in the open for everyone to see, the SC knew about (or could not ignore it as it was happening here), and they were generally very delicate about trademarks, using of terms, etc. Ok. I understand that, BUT, in my point of view, this issue was about the domain itself and not about the content in it. There are two different situations here, but the problem is the same: the use of TDF brand in the domains name outside TDF structure. I won't insist in this matter anymore, ok? Look: I don't want to fight anymore, we shall solve this matter right now, or I quit. I am wasting much time here, and TDF nor Libreoffice pay my bills. I should remind you I am a *volunteer* here, trying to show you that we are doing our job, and you are questioning our behavior based on partial evidences. And, yes, I think someone must have told you about that behind the scenes, because your claims began to arrise a few days after we have done some changes in directions up here. Those are the same people who could question us about that decision, or remind us to talk to you before we do that, but they prefered to do things in another way, puting you and us into a battle. I think you were involved into a fight you could solve in a different way. I think with a little piece of good will from both of us, this unpleasant situation can be reverted, BUT, I will not admit we were doing something extremely wrong. Maybe we had made some decisions that were mistaken because of the lack of contributors in some areas, including those who could question the decision of using libreoffice brand in the domain name. But again: you could question us in a different manner, and we would be happy to fix our mistakes, as we have already done. You have to notice that we are abruptly switching many of our contents and mailing lists right now, harming a lot of contributors and users, because of YOUR requests. This harm is much more deeper for us than the harm for TDF of waiting a little more time to request the ownership and the redirection of that domains. But it is being done because of your urgency and your distrust on us. You could also have requested us a schedule for this to be done, but you prefered to force us into a extreme situation. That's OK. It doesn't matter anymore. It's done. I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, as another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio is also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't been more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling, perhaps I'm wrong. TDF does not take sides, were it between ALTA and Colibre. Frankly we can't, we shouldn't, we won't. It's not our job. The situation is what it is, it's unfortunate, but we want to deal with the Brazilian community as a whole. It's a very tempting for you or others, to think TDF will take sides, even secretly. What TDF wants is to work and help the community work, that's it. We're not interested in local fightings, and should I need to write it again, the Brazilian community is most welcome here. It is your home. I am also surprised about the lack of participation of Olivier in this discussion. Claudio has his own personal problems and I can't speak for him. And, in fact, it seems there's only me in here, trying to show you what was happening and I am NOT a TDF member. Even other Brazilian TDF members aren't here. There are you, TDF founders, and me, an ordinary contributor. I say again: I am just a *volunteer* who loves to contribute to Libreoffice. I am NOT looking for a job or a good political position in the core team, or in my community. In fact, as I have stated before, I am wasting much more time here than I have to dedicate to LibreOffice. From now on I will rethink my personal priorities. What you have requested is taking place, I suppose you will be satisfied, won't you? I tryied to access libreoffice.org.br and it is still pointing to our old website. I will request Claudio to switch it to pt-br.libreoffice.org and that's my final contribution on this matter. I don't have the ownership nor admin control on it, so I will not reply any other question about that. Please refer to
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hi, Possibly, but again we cannot take sides. The bottomline is, Claudio should have talked to us. Sorry, but this is not what is seems. You only to knowCláudio, only attacks and cites Cláudio,why? It seems you have a speech ready, at least is the impression I got. Anyway, as for Colibre, my point is the same: TDF deals and works with the Brazilian community as a whole, not with one specific church. And who is asking this? So, if it's a name, a NGO, anything, we will deal with the Brazilian community as a whole with the same respect and rights, as well as the same duties that are vested unto any other community. Ok, Charles.We are not here asking for exclusivity. Understand, Colibre (LibreOffice Community) is a simple name. A step by to replace BrOffice for LibreOffice on the projects that already existing in Brazil. You are proposing to kill anything that existed before? I hope not. I'm doing the best I can to resolve the main issue here. Cláudio already spoke with Florian (in PVT). The domains will be redirected to the TDF structure. Since yesterday we began to use the list discus...@pt-br.libreoffice.org to replace @gubro-br (BrOffice structure). I am awaiting a Florian position in relation to my request on a mailing list for the Journal and then the migration is complete (at least for the mailing lists). After that, we will not have any external list in action here in Brazil. About domains,I think we can close this issue. I propose that the SC make a meeting with former members of the NGO BrOffice (not only Cláudio) and decide what to do. Regards, Luiz Oliveira -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hello Paulo, Le Wed, 11 May 2011 09:28:58 -0300, Paulo de Souza Lima paulo.s.l...@gmail.com a écrit : 2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org Paulo, Good morning, Charles, This is just a comment from my side as you keep asking a question that I feel I had answered before, but you believe I haven't, so let me answer to the question again. It's about your question on the North American LibreOffice DVD team and website and the Brazilian one. Take a look at the two website. The NA LibreOffice DVD team has a website that is focused on a DVD project, that encompasses multiple languages. It is not a traditional native-language team, to use the OOo parlance, and it does not try to even harbour the full TDF / LO colours and logos. The NA DVD team has formed and debated here, on this mailing lists and on others (website and discuss); they did this in the open for everyone to see, the SC knew about (or could not ignore it as it was happening here), and they were generally very delicate about trademarks, using of terms, etc. Ok. I understand that, BUT, in my point of view, this issue was about the domain itself and not about the content in it. It was not just the domain. There are two different situations here, but the problem is the same: the use of TDF brand in the domains name outside TDF structure. I won't insist in this matter anymore, ok? Okay. Look: I don't want to fight anymore, we shall solve this matter right now, or I quit. I am wasting much time here, and TDF nor Libreoffice pay my bills. I should remind you I am a *volunteer* here, trying to show you that we are doing our job, and you are questioning our behavior based on partial evidences. I'm a volunteer too, Paulo, most of us are. And, yes, I think someone must have told you about that behind the scenes, because your claims began to arrise a few days after we have done some changes in directions up here. That was not intended. I reacted after Luiz pointed to libreoffice.org.br... Those are the same people who could question us about that decision, or remind us to talk to you before we do that, but they prefered to do things in another way, puting you and us into a battle. I think you were involved into a fight you could solve in a different way. I think with a little piece of good will from both of us, this unpleasant situation can be reverted, BUT, I will not admit we were doing something extremely wrong. Oh I don't think you were doing something extremely wrong, that's not what I would call it, but it was still wrong in several respects and we feel it could have led to other wrong things. Maybe we had made some decisions that were mistaken because of the lack of contributors in some areas, including those who could question the decision of using libreoffice brand in the domain name. But again: you could question us in a different manner, and we would be happy to fix our mistakes, as we have already done. You have to notice that we are abruptly switching many of our contents and mailing lists right now, harming a lot of contributors and users, because of YOUR requests. This harm is much more deeper for us than the harm for TDF of waiting a little more time to request the ownership and the redirection of that domains. But it is being done because of your urgency and your distrust on us. You could also have requested us a schedule for this to be done, but you prefered to force us into a extreme situation. That's OK. It doesn't matter anymore. It's done. thank you. I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, as another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio is also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't been more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling, perhaps I'm wrong. TDF does not take sides, were it between ALTA and Colibre. Frankly we can't, we shouldn't, we won't. It's not our job. The situation is what it is, it's unfortunate, but we want to deal with the Brazilian community as a whole. It's a very tempting for you or others, to think TDF will take sides, even secretly. What TDF wants is to work and help the community work, that's it. We're not interested in local fightings, and should I need to write it again, the Brazilian community is most welcome here. It is your home. I am also surprised about the lack of participation of Olivier in this discussion. Claudio has his own personal problems and I can't speak for him. And, in fact, it seems there's only me in here, trying to show you what was happening and I am NOT a TDF member. Even other Brazilian TDF members aren't here. There are you, TDF founders, and me, an ordinary contributor. I say again: I am just a *volunteer* who loves to contribute to Libreoffice. So again, we're volunteers here. I am NOT looking for a job or a good
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hi Charles, Paulo, all, I don't know you, Paulo, very well, but reading your postings shows me that you care for both, the Brazilian and the international LibreOffice community. I know Charles much better - he works hard to support the LibreOffice community, he has experienced quite negative effects of words and actions in the past, first for OpenOffice.org, now for LibreOffice, and he wants to avoid such effects wherever he finds signs that might lead in this direction. And - he tries to be quite clear in his wording, leading to the impression that he doesn't care about the perception and feelings of the people he talks to. But what I wanted to add here in the thread is something different: Charles-H. Schulz schrieb: Paulo, Le Wed, 11 May 2011 11:42:02 -0300, Paulo de Souza Limapaulo.s.l...@gmail.com a écrit : 2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulzcharles.sch...@documentfoundation.org Hello Paulo, Hello. TDF will be satisfied when the whole community will be healthy and able to contribute to LibreOffice. I'm not sure what you mean with healthy and able to contribute to LibreOffice. I am telling you, since the begining of this mess, we ARE healthy, contributing and doing our job. I really still don't understand why you refuse to agree with that. The proof is in TDF wiki and websites, but I won't insist in this matter anymore, also. If you have a web browser and Google Translate, you can easily see it by yourself. Do it! Paulo: calm down. :-) don't take each of my sentences as an attack. What I mean by a healthy community is a community that does not have open quarrels and arguments such as... the brazilian community. You tell me the community is healthy, but it's not so clear to me. (and there again I have to stop commenting because it quickly stops being TDF's business). That's not true in my eyes. TDF as the international LibreOffice community *is* interested in every regional team working to further LibreOffice as product and as community. If there are issues, where the international community can help, we want to be involved. We've been telling this several times privately and on the mailing lists (e.g. after the announcement of dropping the BrOffice.org name and switching to LibreOffice). But our help is limited. Interpersonal issues should be able to be solved among the people involved. Decisions inside a local team or community about the tools they use and the way they work together should not involve the international community, unless they lead to problems in the relationship to the international community or restrictions to work with the international tools. This has been my concern with the wrong mailing list (Gubros) and the wrong domain (.org.br). It was not clear to me (and others looking from the outside) that both are interim solutions on your way from an mostly independent BrOffice community to the Brazilian part of the international LibreOffice community. Reading that there are people in Brazil trying to keep up their independent community without seeing the positive aspects of being part of the international community leads to sad feelings: LibreOffice *is* international, and even if everybody is free to decide how to work and discuss, we experienced something similar in the past: Single persons or groups tried to draw interested newcomers or community members away from this international team, towards a working area with different focus. They used our infrastructure, pointed to their mailing lists instead of the official ones and so on. Everybody should have the chance to contribute to LibreOffice directly - neither filtered by an NGO (as BrOffice times are over, I don't need any prove or denial in this area), nor redirected to different websites or mailing lists. That's the reason why I want to see a clear statement on the website and in the wiki describing the .org.br website as interim solution until the content has been moved to the pt-br website. If the website would contain a heading like we're moving the content of this site to our new home http://pt-br.libreoffice.org; and the broffice.org site would lead to this page too, I'm sure the Steering Committee would allow to use the external page for the time needed. Of course you can link to resources on the interim site from each pt-br webpage (like For more content ., please have a look at our old website, until the migration has been finished). I think a prominent link from the main page to libreoffice.org.br might help your users not to feel lost in the transition, and this should not be a problem if the goal would be mentioned here too. For the mailing list (Luiz told us, that you are already moving) I hope transistion is easier. I don't mind at all, if the well known list is still active. But everybody should know that the people interested in LibreOffice and being part of the international community use the other list - like you already
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as TDF members/founders. I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. Eliane Domingos is the fourth. //drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hi, On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as TDF members/founders. I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. Eliane Domingos is the fourth. //drew I'm very curious to know what the criterion for immediate her acceptance. And the Paulo refused. Most translations of the Brazilian portal (pt-br.libreoffice.org) was that he didand other contributors, but who signed? I answer: Eliane and Gustavo and Olivier... You know why only Olivier translates LibreOffice (l10n)to Brazilian portuguese? Because he does not let anyone else help. Now, Rogério Luz is trying to help. But I think it is not easy. Luiz Oliveira -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hi :) I think we need those 4 people to act as the Named Contacts for Paulo and others. Note that when the form asked for 2 contact people to confirm it need those 2 people to already be members. So, a lot of people are going to have to try re-applying a few times until we can get everyone in. It will become easier as more people become properly registered but it's a bit of a pain trying to fulfil German Company Law. Note that there are probably other official members that could be your named contacts but people inside your community might be better placed to help so ask around. I think that is 1 reason why there has been a request for a list on the website = so that it's easier to find someone that might be keen willing to act as yur named person. I'm not a member yet either :( Regards from Tom :) From: luiz lcolui...@gmail.com To: marketing@libreoffice.org Sent: Thu, 12 May, 2011 2:25:59 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains Hi, On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as TDF members/founders. I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. Eliane Domingos is the fourth. //drew I'm very curious to know what the criterion for immediate her acceptance. And the Paulo refused. Most translations of the Brazilian portal (pt-br.libreoffice.org) was that he didand other contributors, but who signed? I answer: Eliane and Gustavo and Olivier... You know why only Olivier translates LibreOffice (l10n)to Brazilian portuguese? Because he does not let anyone else help. Now, Rogério Luz is trying to help. But I think it is not easy. Luiz Oliveira -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0300, luiz wrote: Hi, On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as TDF members/founders. I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. Eliane Domingos is the fourth. //drew Hi Luiz. It was simply that I knew there was at least four members from Brasil - I recalled seeing a blog by Olivier Hallot on the subject. http://olivierhallot.blogspot.com/2011/05/novo-membro-da-document-foundation.html You are going places in your reply however where I have no business going. Best wishes, Drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hello, Florian Effenberger wrote on 2011-05-10 11.36: as said, I talked to our ISP, and they offer a trustee service for Brazilian domains, so we can transfer the domain to someone holding it for TDF. I will verify again with them based on the information you gave me (NGO needed), but in case that's indeed possible, wouldn't it be the best solution, to have the domain names independent from one entity? Paulo is right - we indeed need a local representative for .org.br, our ISP can only offer trustee service for the other Brazilian TLDs. However, as said, I am happy to work out a trustee contract with any of the Brazilian NGOs and show it in public. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
2011/5/10 Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Hello Paulo, Paulo de Souza Lima wrote on 2011-05-10 03.21: The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not completely undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is competely over, the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an NGO, as said, I talked to our ISP, and they offer a trustee service for Brazilian domains, so we can transfer the domain to someone holding it for TDF. I will verify again with them based on the information you gave me (NGO needed), but in case that's indeed possible, wouldn't it be the best solution, to have the domain names independent from one entity? Hi Florian. As I said before, that domain belongs to the NGO BrOffice.org. Our Community doesn't have any control on it. If you want to negotiate the transfer of the domain, you should talk to the owners, not with us. I suppose Claudio could help you in this issue more than me. But I will say it again: The Community is deliberating on it, in public mailing lists (you can follow it if you wish). I have a strong feeling, that the decision will be giving up of any use of libreoffice.org.br domain. not a person or a private company). I suppose that ALTA could kindly offer to do that, but if you decide it it will be a proof that TDF members are not reliable for Brazilian Community. Sorry for these words, but it's the crude truth. I am happy to make a trustee contact with one of the Brazilian non-profit organizations, in case our provider does not offer a trustee service for . org.br domain names. I am also happy to show that trustee contract to the public then -- so there should be no risk for anyone, whether it's ALTA or another entity. That's your opinion. Do what you want. I don't care anymore. migration to TDF websites. As I stated before, personally, I really don't care who will own libreoffice.org.br domain name. And I think people in the community doesn't care at all. But as I said before: giving the I heard something different about that. I heard that the libreoffice.org.br domain cannot be given to us or put under TDF control, and I even read that some people are to hand out e-mail addresses @ libreoffice.org.br. So, I am glad that you don't care who will own that domain name, but it seems not everyone shares that. Well, if you heard that, I would like to know your sources. If there are some people handling libreoffice.org.br emails, that's not of our business, as we cannot control this domain. You have to understand that one thing is the Brazilian Community, another different thing is the NGO. I am talking about the Brazilian Community, I don't speak for the NGO or their owners. ownership to the people who are threatening us will be a shame and an insult. Does the German association, that at the moment legally represents TDF until it is a legal entity by itself, threat you? If not, I guess you have no objections to us having a trustee contract with our provider to host the domain names, or if that is not possible, with any of the Brazilian NGOs. As said, I am happy to show that trustee contact in public then. Are there any objections to that? For me, that's OK. And I think this is a real demonstration of good will. But, yet, my first question is not answered: Why North American Community can use the brand in their domain name and Brazilian Community can't? This is a real strage behavior. I'll reply to that in your other mail soon. Thanks. And I have another question: Will we be allowed to use that brand in our magazine, once it's a real contribution to Libreoffice marketing? We have a trademark policy in place that has been discussed and agreed upon in public, with everyone being able to contribute: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TradeMark_Policy So, legally spoken, you need permission to do so, but in general, I personally have no objection. If the project is introduced to the list, with everyone from the Community being able to join, so it's not a closed group, and it follows our open, transparent and meritocratic principles: Of course. You should formally ask as described in the Trademark Policy, but I have a feeling you might get a positive reply. :-) That's another demonstration of good will. Thanks for that. In fact, we are trying to follow the trademark policy line by line. And if anyone find something wrong in our job, he/she is invited to call us and explain what is happening. We will be happy in fix our fault. It is not about keeping all legal assets just for us. Us is the Community, we decide together on how to use these, in the - you get it - open, transparent and meritocratic process. That decision is independent from individuals, and that's exactly why TDF has been set-up. We want to be independent, and be able to host all assets for the Community. Ok. Florian -- Florian
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hi all, People who should be here is still uttered quietly in the shadows. Sorry! I'll try to be practical again. Like Paulo, I don't care about domains. I'm not the owner of any domain, was not associated with the NGO BrOffice, therefore do not know what was agreed between the people who decided to kill it. The Brazilian Community of LibreOffice, all users regardless of formal institution, has nothing about it. I talked to Claudio yesterday by email and he agreed to redirect all domains .org.br to TDF's infra. But, personally, I don't agree to pass the domains to any Brazilian entity, only for the TDF. It's safer!! Another thing, the question of parallel universes is a great nonsense or a terrible misunderstanding. The only filter that we haveis the language. Many can't communicate in English. I do it badly and badly. I can assure you the general feeling here is we belong to a worldwide community called The Document Foundation that develops a great product, LibreOfficewhich we are most proud.Everything we do here is to promote these brands (TDF and LibreOffice), nothing more than that. I hope to end this discussion as soon as possible because we have much to do yet. About the magazine:Florian, just give us a mailing list within the TDF structure and we migrated immediately. My suggestion: revi...@pt-br.libreoffice.org Thank's a lot, Luiz Oliveira Hello Paulo, Paulo de Souza Lima wrote on 2011-05-10 03.21: The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not completely undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is competely over, the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an NGO, as said, I talked to our ISP, and they offer a trustee service for Brazilian domains, so we can transfer the domain to someone holding it for TDF. I will verify again with them based on the information you gave me (NGO needed), but in case that's indeed possible, wouldn't it be the best solution, to have the domain names independent from one entity? not a person or a private company). I suppose that ALTA could kindly offer to do that, but if you decide it it will be a proof that TDF members are not reliable for Brazilian Community. Sorry for these words, but it's the crude truth. I am happy to make a trustee contact with one of the Brazilian non-profit organizations, in case our provider does not offer a trustee service for .org.br domain names. I am also happy to show that trustee contract to the public then -- so there should be no risk for anyone, whether it's ALTA or another entity. migration to TDF websites. As I stated before, personally, I really don't care who will own libreoffice.org.br domain name. And I think people in the community doesn't care at all. But as I said before: giving the I heard something different about that. I heard that the libreoffice.org.br domain cannot be given to us or put under TDF control, and I even read that some people are to hand out e-mail addresses @libreoffice.org.br. So, I am glad that you don't care who will own that domain name, but it seems not everyone shares that. ownership to the people who are threatening us will be a shame and an insult. Does the German association, that at the moment legally represents TDF until it is a legal entity by itself, threat you? If not, I guess you have no objections to us having a trustee contract with our provider to host the domain names, or if that is not possible, with any of the Brazilian NGOs. As said, I am happy to show that trustee contact in public then. Are there any objections to that? But, yet, my first question is not answered: Why North American Community can use the brand in their domain name and Brazilian Community can't? This is a real strage behavior. I'll reply to that in your other mail soon. And I have another question: Will we be allowed to use that brand in our magazine, once it's a real contribution to Libreoffice marketing? We have a trademark policy in place that has been discussed and agreed upon in public, with everyone being able to contribute: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TradeMark_Policy So, legally spoken, you need permission to do so, but in general, I personally have no objection. If the project is introduced to the list, with everyone from the Community being able to join, so it's not a closed group, and it follows our open, transparent and meritocratic principles: Of course. You should formally ask as described in the Trademark Policy, but I have a feeling you might get a positive reply. :-) It is not about keeping all legal assets just for us. Us is the Community, we decide together on how to use these, in the - you get it - open, transparent and meritocratic process. That decision is independent from individuals, and that's exactly why TDF has been set-up. We want to be independent, and be able to host all assets for the Community. Florian -- Unsubscribe
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
2011/5/10 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at Hi Paulo, all, Hi. sorry for stepping in here so late, but I don't understand what you mean - so I'd rather like to ask instead of rely on possibly wrong assumptions... Paulo S. Lima wrote: 2011/5/9 Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk [...] Paulo, is there a danger of losing the Brazilian websites due to Brazilian law? If that danger does exist then is it a problem that needs to be solved urgently? The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not completely undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is competely over, the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an NGO, not a person or a private company). If I understand you right, the domains have to be owned by an NGO, or they don't exist / are not accessible on the web. No. Every domain registration has a time to expire. When expiring is closing, the owner receives a message about it and, if he wants, he pays another fare and maintain that domain for another period of time (from 1 to 3 years, i think). If NGO ends its activities, domain will remain in tis name, until expiration. After that, it will be available for anyone (who has an legalized brazilian NGO) to register it. And if they exist, Brazilian people know by their extension (.org.br), that they relate to an NGO dedicated to LibreOffice and TDF. When the present NGO is undone, the website will become inactive. No, the correct situation is: when the domain payed period expire. I don't know if this is a real issue to the Brazilian community and their users, as I strongly hope that until this time the move towards the br-pt.LibO pages has been finished. After all this mess, We're gonna move what we can move right away, and place the rest somewhere. That's not the best choice, but is the one we can do. But this question should be left to the LibO/TDF community in Brazil, as they are the ones to know their users best. That's what I'm saying since the begining, but some people pretend not to understand and prefer coertion instead negotiation. The idea of securing the website for later times comes to my mind, but our trademark policy states clearly that nobody is allowed to use such a website without agreement by the trademark owner, so we can hinder every evil player from using the site. Ok. But I ask you again: Why are there two different treatments to North-american community and brazilian community? And this is an issue that affects a lot of things, including TDF claims to be a transparent and meritocratic foundation. But I will not begin a new discussion on this matter. I suppose that ALTA could kindly offer to do that, but if you decide it it will be a proof that TDF members are not reliable for Brazilian Community. Sorry for these words, but it's the crude truth. And here I am a bit lost: I don't know ALTA, but the way you propose to use them as NGO for the website sounds to me, that they don't have the trust of the Brazilian community. Well, let me draw it for you: Olivier and David are founder members of TDF. They were part of the BrOffice.org NGO who were doing things that Brazilian Community don't agree. Those things include asking for Claudio's dismissing to TDF, disregard many of BrOffice.org bylaws (such support our community's annual meeting, act like a proxy between the community and TDF, filter who was able to became Broffice.org member, and so on). That's because BrOffice.org was disassembled: By Brazilian laws, when an Association like that loose their goals, it can be ended up if some of their members ask for that in justice. That's because the community disregard Olivier, David, Gustavo Pacheco, Eliane Domingos and other people. That's not me who is telling that. This is well documented in the internet, in Mailing lists, blogs and in an petition we made which has almost 1000 signatures. There are many people, great names of FOSS and ODF in Brazil who are eye witness of what has done. When BrOffice.org ended up, they founded ALTA as an Association (an NGO). And we know they've done that in order to redo there, what they were doing in the NGO BrOffice.org. Our concern is they begin to claim to be the representatives of TDF in Brazil, including the official brazilian community representatives, just like they tried to do before. If this is true, I think Charles and Florian misunderstood your posting. So please assure my interpretation: The Brazilian community *doesn't* want ALTA to be the community's NGO. Is this right or wrong? That's right. More precisely: if they want to make money with libreoffice, or act as a corporation, that's not of community's business. What we don't want is they becoming an official representative of TDF and Libreoffice in Brazil, with an implicit authority to give orders or coerce our community. We want clear rules on it. ALTA is
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains
Hi, I agree with Paul. Peace and love, let's use all this energy to the promotion LibreOffice the world. Cheers, Clóvis On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 10:32 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima paulo.s.l...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/5/10 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at Hi Paulo, all, Hi. sorry for stepping in here so late, but I don't understand what you mean - so I'd rather like to ask instead of rely on possibly wrong assumptions... Paulo S. Lima wrote: 2011/5/9 Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk [...] Paulo, is there a danger of losing the Brazilian websites due to Brazilian law? If that danger does exist then is it a problem that needs to be solved urgently? The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not completely undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is competely over, the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an NGO, not a person or a private company). If I understand you right, the domains have to be owned by an NGO, or they don't exist / are not accessible on the web. No. Every domain registration has a time to expire. When expiring is closing, the owner receives a message about it and, if he wants, he pays another fare and maintain that domain for another period of time (from 1 to 3 years, i think). If NGO ends its activities, domain will remain in tis name, until expiration. After that, it will be available for anyone (who has an legalized brazilian NGO) to register it. And if they exist, Brazilian people know by their extension (.org.br), that they relate to an NGO dedicated to LibreOffice and TDF. When the present NGO is undone, the website will become inactive. No, the correct situation is: when the domain payed period expire. I don't know if this is a real issue to the Brazilian community and their users, as I strongly hope that until this time the move towards the br-pt.LibO pages has been finished. After all this mess, We're gonna move what we can move right away, and place the rest somewhere. That's not the best choice, but is the one we can do. But this question should be left to the LibO/TDF community in Brazil, as they are the ones to know their users best. That's what I'm saying since the begining, but some people pretend not to understand and prefer coertion instead negotiation. The idea of securing the website for later times comes to my mind, but our trademark policy states clearly that nobody is allowed to use such a website without agreement by the trademark owner, so we can hinder every evil player from using the site. Ok. But I ask you again: Why are there two different treatments to North-american community and brazilian community? And this is an issue that affects a lot of things, including TDF claims to be a transparent and meritocratic foundation. But I will not begin a new discussion on this matter. I suppose that ALTA could kindly offer to do that, but if you decide it it will be a proof that TDF members are not reliable for Brazilian Community. Sorry for these words, but it's the crude truth. And here I am a bit lost: I don't know ALTA, but the way you propose to use them as NGO for the website sounds to me, that they don't have the trust of the Brazilian community. Well, let me draw it for you: Olivier and David are founder members of TDF. They were part of the BrOffice.org NGO who were doing things that Brazilian Community don't agree. Those things include asking for Claudio's dismissing to TDF, disregard many of BrOffice.org bylaws (such support our community's annual meeting, act like a proxy between the community and TDF, filter who was able to became Broffice.org member, and so on). That's because BrOffice.org was disassembled: By Brazilian laws, when an Association like that loose their goals, it can be ended up if some of their members ask for that in justice. That's because the community disregard Olivier, David, Gustavo Pacheco, Eliane Domingos and other people. That's not me who is telling that. This is well documented in the internet, in Mailing lists, blogs and in an petition we made which has almost 1000 signatures. There are many people, great names of FOSS and ODF in Brazil who are eye witness of what has done. When BrOffice.org ended up, they founded ALTA as an Association (an NGO). And we know they've done that in order to redo there, what they were doing in the NGO BrOffice.org. Our concern is they begin to claim to be the representatives of TDF in Brazil, including the official brazilian community representatives, just like they tried to do before. If this is true, I think Charles and Florian misunderstood your posting. So please assure my interpretation: The Brazilian community *doesn't* want ALTA to be the community's NGO. Is this right or wrong?
