Re: [Marxism] Grover Cleveland, Obama's Percursor?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == C'mon, don't compare Obama to Wilson, surely he's not THAT bad. Wilson was a notorious KKK loving racist, back when the KKK was a major stakeholder in the Democratic Party, who had a private screening of Birth of a Nation held for him in the White House in 1915. Even guys like Theodore Roosevelt thought he was beyond the pale in that regard. With the centennial of The Great War coming upon us there will be plenty of opportunity to deconstruct phony liberal icons like Wilson . . . and TR. Back in those days the NAACP actually viewed the Republicans as the lesser evil versus the vulgar racist corrupt populism of The Democracy with its robust history going back to the days of Jackson. On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Matthew Russo russo.matth...@gmail.comwrote: 2) The closer analogy of Obama/Clinton is to Woodrow Wilson, a Southerner transplanted to the Northeast who began his political career as a New York Bourbon Democrat, but who obviously made a certain metamorphosis Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Gandhi
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, and I was shocked to learn during a tete a tete we had with this racist neo-Confederate on the local newspaper blogs that Gandhi espoused racist views against blacks as uncivilized Kafirs when he was in South Africa, something that didn't get touched on in the Hollywood movie. I checked it out and it's true. He opposed segregation: of East Indians, but supported it against blacks since they were inferior to civilized Boer, English . . . and Indian people. Thus the point was made that comparing ML King to Gandhi is inapposite. No wonder he wasn't so incensed by Hitler, aside from the fact that Hitler wasn't occupying India. John O'Brien: I am no fan of Gandhi and that is because I have read his articles, rather than just following the uncritical mythical films and stories made about him. In Young India that he published in the 1920's, Gandhi urged Gays to be killed. Is that the nonviolent prophet we hear about! Gandhi had many faults, from his serving in WWI in the British military to then during WWII urging non-violence neutrality against the nazis. Gandhi believed the brave Resistance fighters in occupied Europe, including the Jews who took part in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising WERE Wrong for using violence against the nazis!! Nelson Mandela was more principled than M. Gandhi. Do not judge peoples politics by what they wear, but what economic, religious power systems they promote. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] After protests, Iran officials threaten death to Green leaders (plus some Egypt stuff)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hey these guys are coming across like a bunch of rabid Nazis. Then again these guys have never been too progressive aside from standing up for their sovereignty against US imperialism. Fuck them. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/16/world/middleeast/16iran.html?hp Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] After protests, Iran officials threaten death to Green leaders (plus some Egypt stuff)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Michael Smith m...@smithbowen.net wrote: On Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:14:39 -0800 Tom Cod tomc...@gmail.com wrote: Hey these guys are coming across like a bunch of rabid Nazis. Then again these guys have never been too progressive aside from standing up for their sovereignty against US imperialism. Which is a mere bagatelle, of course. As long as they don't have a rope around your neck. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-OrWVMPwowNR=1 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] After protests, Iran officials threaten death
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == thanks, I think it does mean, however, particularly in the context of a semi-colonial country, that the another imperialists of US and NATO stay out of it. This is for the Iranian people to sort out, but we should not be apologizing for these thugs either. What a spectacle of this lynch mob in what is supposed to be the dignified forum of the national legislature. Really brought to mind similar rallies of the Nazis in the Reichstag. On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Paula paula_ce...@msn.com wrote: There's nothing progressive about standing up against one imperialist, if you are another. Mussolini did it, Ahmadinejad does it, with similar methods at home. Tom is more correct than he realizes when he says those guys are 'coming across like a bunch of rabid Nazis'. Paula Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dear PSL, WWP, and other Qaddafi defenders
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Isn't this a straw man? You post a WW article from 2009 as evidence of WWP's attitude now. On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 12:55 AM, Andrew Splane andrewspl...@gmail.comwrote: Dear Party for Socialism and Liberation, Workers World Party, and other Qaddafi defenders . . . . Every honest, principled socialist can see that the revolt in Libya is a mass uprising for democracy and economic justice against an insane dictator. . . . . http://www.workers.org/2009/world/libya_0924/index.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The leftists who flocked to Qadhdhafi's Libya
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == So what? What does that have to with Palestine? national liberation fighters have the right to turn to whomever or whatever will materially aid them or wherever the needs of survival mandate. What about Palestinians living in the US? Lenin for one was clear on this as it related to the Irish and Kaiser's Germany. Moreover, let's not forget that thousands of Palestinian fighters were forcibly expelled from Lebanon by Israel and the US in the wake of the Sabra and Shatilla massacres. Where did Trotsky flock to? the Jews of Nazi Germany? whatever safe haven they could find. Should we therefore tag them with the crimes of British colonialism or US Dixiecrat racism? On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 12:01 AM, Lajany Otum lajany_o...@yahoo.co.ukwrote: From the Angry Arab blog: Comrade Fawwaz reminds me that among those leftist leaders who flocked to Qadhdhafi's Libya was none other than George Habash. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Libya
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I think Paula really is confused. semi-colonial countries or countries emerging from that shadow, regardless of what we might think about their regimes are not imperialist, imperialism being as Lenin defined it, the dictatorship of finance capital of the big imperial powers. Libya and Venezuela are not imperialist powers, regardless of whether they are run by bad guys or not. They do not have foreign countries and peoples under their sway; they never had colonies and do not have a global empire they preside over. Quite the opposite. That does not mean we should apologize for the repression of their people by the regimes they do have. On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Paula paula_ce...@msn.com wrote: There's an imperialist attack going on in Libya right now. It's Libyan imperialism attacking its 'own' people. Paula Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Union struggle at Harpers
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == that figures. A good take on the history of Harper's and its rightward drift is former editor Willie Morris' book New York Days. Morris was the editor in the 60s being forced out in 1971 by the owners who shifted the editorial policy in a more conservative direction. Recently a bio of Morris was published as well that focuses on this. http://www.amazon.com/New-York-Days-Willie-Morris/dp/0316583987/ref=sr_1_1?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1298572541sr=1-1 http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=13441 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Workers World Forum 'School' on Middle East
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=184719418237622notif_t=event_invite Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Libyan shame
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == OK, sorry I forgot the clip. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Libyan shame
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I was just reviewing WWP's analysis of Tienanmen in which the term massacre was counterposed to the battle it supposedly was. Yeah it was a battle alright, a battle between unarmed students and soldiers with guns and tanks! I remember seeing the little press conference these generals had thereafter and was reminded not of anything to do with Mao or the Red Guards, but of some reactionary flunky South Vietnamese junta from the mid-sixties trying to explain away their crimes. Talk about denial. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Worst Nuke Disaster Since Chernobyl
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/world/asia/13nuclear.html?_r=1hp Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is this as good as it gets?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == quit the genteel intellectual equivocation. Are you supporting the Euro-American military intervention in Libya or not? That was Luko's issue and it's not bullshit. On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Marv Gandall marvg...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011-03-20, at 4:40 PM, Mark Lause wrote: I do seem to have missed that Marv Gandall and others had been voting the Kaiser war credits in the Reichstag. :-) No, I wouldn't have voted that way, given my politics. And, yes, if forces loyal to the Russian Tsar were endeavouring to crush a mass democratic uprising, and the Kaiser allowed me my safe passage across Germany to participate in the revolutionary process, I would have accepted German imperialist aid on the understanding that you deal with the immediate threat to your survival first and your other enemies later. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is this as good as it gets?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Evidence Gaddafi has committed massacres? Remember all the exaggerated hype about Saddam, how his troops ripped babies out of incubators, WMDs etc. etc. let's get a grip here, c'mon. We know the US backed regimes in Bahrain and Yemen have committed massacres recently. Where's the outrage over that? Let's not be played for fools. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is this as good as it gets?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == to set the historical record straight or to keep it straight, Lenin didn't accept German imperialist aid beyond a train ride back to Petersburg, although the Bolsheviks' political opponents constantly suggested that he did. Actually, he stridently denounced socialists that supported that on some democratic or left wing basis, particularly Karl Kautsky, a very ideologically sophisticated avowed orthodox marxist whom Lenin dismissed, characterizing him as someone who was trying to turn Marx into an ordinary Liberal. On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Marv Gandall marvg...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011-03-20, at 4:40 PM, Mark Lause wrote: I do seem to have missed that Marv Gandall and others had been voting the Kaiser war credits in the Reichstag. :-) No, I wouldn't have voted that way, given my politics. And, yes, if forces loyal to the Russian Tsar were endeavouring to crush a mass democratic uprising, and the Kaiser allowed me my safe passage across Germany to participate in the revolutionary process, I would have accepted German imperialist aid on the understanding that you deal with the immediate threat to your survival first and your other enemies later. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is this as good as it gets?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == OK, but we're not thousands of miles away from the US government and have a responsibility here to deal with it as American citizens. Thus while the dissidents in Libya may have understandable reasons based on their realpolitik for calling for aid from whomever they can get it and we certainly shouldn't demonize them or judge their political character solely by that, assuming they are a homogenous group that speaks with one voice. It is an entirely different matter, however, for us as Americans of Brits to support that: to support our own government's military adventures; there were South Vietnamese that wanted us in their country as well or Korea, contras in Nicaragua etc etc. so what? The equities may indeed favor the dissidents over Gaddafi, there are conflicts all over the world in this vein, many more compelling: yet they do not and should not result in imperial military intervention. Again, in self serving fashion Yemen and Bahrain are ignored by our rulers and their media. Moreover, what do we really know about what's going on there? What CNN or USA has told us over a few days or weeks. Let's not get stampeded into a knee jerk reaction in support of own government. C'mon, you say this is somehow unique. It isn't to this extent at all: every imperialist war, particularly by the US and Britain has been preceded by sanctimonious horror stories and propaganda about how evil the target is and how humanitarian and ethical imperatives mandate intervention and how we're fighting for freedom and democracy against tyranny, whether in Vietnam, Nicaragua wherever. Let's not give a left cover for that; there are plenty of guys like Christopher Hitchens out there to do that already. There may be true in an extraordinary situation like World War 2 which I don't see that we have here or in Bosnia (my view) after months and years of conflict had revealed certain horrors. Here, both my marxist and ordinary citizen parts tell me that this adventure should be opposed and the Libyan people allowed to sort this out for themselves. We're not the cops of the world. Moreover, we know the whole history of Libya and how the imperialists have been harassing it for decades, how Gaddafi was bombed in 1986 and his own infant daughter killed. On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 3:34 AM, Marv Gandall marvg...@gmail.com wrote: n 2011-03-21, at 2:06 AM, Tom Cod wrote: How about this: HANDS OFF LIBYA! *http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-03-21-Benghazi21_ST_N.htm Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Its the Popular Sovereignty, Stupid
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Now that we're all grown up now and no longer mindless cult followers, but critically minded adults, perhaps we should at least consider the views of those left wing political opponents denounced by Lenin as expressed by them, in particular the works of Voline, the primary anarchist historian of these events (The Unknown Revolution): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voline Both the anarchists and the petty-bourgeois democrats (i.e., the Mensheviks and the Socialist-Revolutionaries, who are the Russian counterparts of that international social type) have talked and are still talking an incredible lot of nonsense about the relation between the bourgeois-democratic revolution and the socialist (that is, proletarian) revolution. The last four years have proved to the hilt that our interpretation of Marxism on this point, and our estimate of the experience of former revolutions were correct. [1921 quote from Lenin] Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Its the Popular Sovereignty, Stupid
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == and also Peter Arshinov, contemporary historian of Makhno's movement in the Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Arshinov Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Liberals March to War
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Libertarian critique of liberal and leftist support of Libyan intervention, including Mother Jones: http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/03/22/liberals-march-to-war/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Cyrenaica
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == My mother brought my attention to this, Eastern Libya as an historically distinct area going back to Roman times and before. She says King Idris was planning on seceding before Qaddafi took over. Another example of the artificial boundaries imposed on the Third World by European colonialism. Ruling class commentators wring their hands over Libya being fractured into a stalemate of sectionalism if their mission is limited to its initial humanitarian purpose. So what? fuck off! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrenaica Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Love me, I'm a Liberal
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == from Phil Ochs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Jeopardy Says Marx Wounded in 1836 Duel
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == According to tonight's correct Final Jeopardy answer in the category Influential 19th Century Thinkers Marx was wounded in 1836 in a duel with an aristocrat while a student at the University of Berlin. One guy had written Marx down, but crossed it out for Nietzsche. I was clueless thinking, Goethe? Hey, a lot of chutzpa for a 17 year old. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dialectics
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah but, since when is dialectics an accepted concept within the scientific community, except maybe among the likes of TD Lysenko? No, rather dialectics, a rule of thumb, (like pragmatism is in its own way except the latter is more consistent with the scientific method), was a concept propounded by sanctimonious German obscurantist philosophers as a schema or approximation of change. They, however, were not scientists, but as to science, laypersons. To me all this is so much hokum that represents the reification of marxism into an obscurantist ideology over workers and oppressed peoples whose class basis is the the petty bourgois intelligentsia and its narrative of itself as high priests, we really see this with post modernism. All this has little to do with political struggle and is after a certain point an obstacle to it. I remember attending a demo in the 70s where this guy, a college professor, responds to my enthusiasm with a the condescending comment, now there's a lot more to it than that. for academics or political struggle? Like what, attending a study group on Hegel? The Science of Logic may not be easy, but the working class standing up for its rights and own interests doesn't require this Rube Goldberg like cloud of obfuscation from bookish, often incredibly naive, philosophes. Thus it's been actually refreshing in reading Edmund Wilson's To the Finland Station, a literary history of the radical movement from the French Revolution to the Bolsheviks, to encounter his dismissive attitude towards this mentality. His explicates the roots of this by juxtasposing the French Revolution to the reactionary semi-feudal environment of Prussia and the German states next door which produced Marx and his progenitors whose patrimony was not the Jacobins but dreary old Kant, Fichte, Hegel etc. It was as if they had grown up next to a volcano and didn't fully appreciate it, fumbling around in the dark wondering whether its really possible for the earth to shake. Thus after breaking out of this stultfying, barely intelligible, dogma Marx exclaims, philosophers have interpreted the world in different ways, the point is to change it!. Yeah, hey, imagine Marat or Gracchus Babeuf, from half a century earlier hearing that. Say what? Really? I can imagine one of them tossing a rock at his garret window exclaiming, Wake Up Idiot! On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 8:54 AM, waistli...@aol.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.scienceofsociety.org/ The Institute for the Study of the Science of Society (ISSS) has the best applied dialectics I have come across on-line. “Dialectics and Complexity” contains pretty good exposition. http://www.scienceofsociety.org/discuss/dialectics/dialectics.html The “World Communist Movement” is a pretty straight forth exposition and general summation of history. http://www.scienceofsociety.org/discuss/wc1.html I agree “studying dialectics as a ‘thing in itself’ is not important,” most certainly if ones desire and passion is to change the world in the image and likeness of the proletariat as a historical/social class. In my opinion, not only does “the labor process and the social conditions of the organization of that labor process diverge and stand in opposition to each other,” but at a certain state of the development of the means of production, qualitatively new means of production enter into antagonism with the old social organization of labor and the property classes “connected to” – interactive, with these old means. “Contradiction and Antagonism The Basis for Two Kinds of Change” is by far the most controversial exposition in these working papers. While this material is somewhat dated and the exposition of antagonism could be further clarified, this is a good read. http://www.scienceofsociety.org/philosophy/philosg.contr.html “Our Philosophical Outlook and the Line of March” (Working Draft) contains a section titled “Quality and Quantity” rather than the classical presentation of “quantitative change leads to qualitative change.” The question is posed: “what is the impact of the “invasion” – emergence - of a new quality into a process and how does this new quality develop quantitatively. Further, this section raises the issue of the dialectic of transition or the “dialectic of the leap.” The leap – transition – excited by the invasion of a new quality contains its unique dialectic of “quantity and quality.” http://www.scienceofsociety.org/discuss/philoline.html The question of the “leap” is presented as “The Leap: The
Re: [Marxism] Dialectics
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == sorry about forgetting to clip Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dialectics
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Now, the biggest philosophy guy in the socialist movement was Gerry Healy who was obsessed with a study of dialectics, hectoring everybody about the need for a turn to philosophy and the dangers of pragmatism. Heck he was so concerned about that heresy that he fingered those bad pragmatic revisionist communists in Iraq (and elsewhere) to Saddam Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Madame Nhu
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == You have to be of a certain age to remember Madame Nhu, a Marie Antoinette like figure, who was a symbol of the decadence of the South Vietnamese regime of her brother, dictator Ngo Dinh Diem who was overthrown and killed in a bloody CIA abetted coup in November 1963 along with his brother, Madame's husband. Previously she had mocked Buddhist monks killing themselves in protest over Diem's repression as barbecues. The night after the fall of Saigon in April 1975 she appeared on Tom Snyder's Tomorrow Show (that followed Johnny Carson on NBC during the 70s) claiming that all this would not have happened if Diem had remained. Well, it wouldn't have ended the way it did for sure, because the way things were going with him the other side would have had it wrapped up before the end of 1964. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/world/asia/27nhu.html?_r=1hpw Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Libyan envoys in Caracas, Chavez says; seeki end to crazy bombing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, I remember an example of this that reach the level of self parody that appeared in the Workers League paper, The Bulletin circa 1971 in which a reviewer stated that the lyrics in Don MacLean's American Pie: The Three Men I admire most The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, Took the last train for the Coast The Day the Music Died So bye-bye Miss American Pie I drove my Chevy to the levy but the levy was dry . . . etc reflected the despair of the middle class in the face of the capitalist crisis. Gee, I thought the song was an elegy to Buddy Holly and a nostalgic paean to 50's rock and old high school days . Moreover, a lot of rockabilly music from this period, including Elvis, had a distinctive working class quality to it. On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 8:07 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: Back in the day, Trotskyists used to throw around the term petty bourgeois impressionism. Like a lot of things, I was never comfortable with that. I may have to rethink this. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Allende
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == No, but there were popular councils organizing in the communities, factories and armed forces, that if instead of being discouraged by the Allende regime, had been bolstered and armed, a different outcome could have occurred. Think Spain in 1936 for example. Michel Raptis aka Pablo has a good discussion of this process in his 1974 book Revolution and Counter-Revolution in Chile On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Paul Cockshott william.cocksh...@glasgow.ac.uk wrote: Get real, he did not have a majority in the congress, could not get his budget through and was very limited in what he could do financially, and legislatively. There was no chance of the the working class coming to power by non constitutional means at that point given that they had no armed organisation remotely capable of beating the army. The University of Glasgow, charity number SC004401 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Should we treat Perez Bocerra as though he were already dead
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == What exactly is the political point you are trying to make? The old sectarian screed against the Popular Front? When one is trying to build a defensive coalition, yeah it might be wise to open the barn door or have a big tent approach to obtain as many allies as possible-while watching one's back obviously. Intuition, if not dogma, should make that fairly obvious. On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Shane Mage shm...@pipeline.com wrote: On May 8, 2011, at 2:34 PM, Tom Cod wrote: How about a united front against Pinochet fascism. Is this barndoorism? Shane Mage Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Allende
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == by not relying on those institutions. by building alternative institutions as was done in Catalonia in 1936, Petrograd in 1917, Cuba and haltingly in Venezuela now which doesn't mean copping some sectarian or dogmatic attitude or having foreign state support. Yes, NOT rely on the power structure of the oligarchy's armed forces obviously. These councils (soviet:Russian word for council) Raptis talked about had nothing to do with that, although they would've welcomed dissident officers. That was what the problem was in Indonesia. Overly relying on the Sukarno and then getting massacred when he fell, just like in Chile-only worse-and not being able to even put up a fight. The right wing tried that on Chavez in 2002 with differing results because, as Tariq Ali has explained, he and his followers had learned that lesson. On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Juan Fajardo fajar...@ix.netcom.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == william.cocksh...@glasgow.ac.uk wrote: There was no chance of the the working class coming to power by non constitutional means at that point given that they had no armed organisation remotely capable of beating the army. On 5/8/2011 2:26 PM, Tom Cod wrote: No, but there were popular councils ... that if instead of being discouraged by the Allende regime, had been ... armed, a different outcome could have occurred. And how do you suppose that could have been accomplished while bypassing the military and the Carabineros? Even supportive generals like Pratts would not have gone for such a thing. And how to finance and organize it if UP couldn't get a budget passed in Congress? Arms donations from the USSR or China? Think to Indonesia for a moment, and see how that worked out. - Juan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Allende
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Moreover, the idea that an even more conciliatory attitude would have prevented this as the CP put out thereafter, is naive. It may sound like hyperbole but by the early 70s the main section of the ruling class and the military elites in South America had opted for fascism in very blatant way, being determined to wipe out subversives and the left completely, which meant having no tolerance for liberalism which they saw as its incubus or starting point. Put differently, as the military slogan of the Guatemalan genocide of 60-90s was: to catch the fish, drain the ocean. Jacobo Timmerman, a Jewish Argentine liberal newspaper editor, in his memoir, Prisoner without a name, Cell without a number, describes being tortured in a room that had a framed picture of Adolf Hitler (a country with hundreds of actual German Nazi WW2 veterans younger than Vietnam vets today) in it and what this regime meant to him as an ordinary liberal and in fact in these places the New Left was mostly completely exterminated during the late 1970s, something that hasn't gotten a lot of play in the history books. An acquaintance of mine from Argentina described how when she was 14 in high school circa 1978, one of her classmates was handing out leaflets. An older guy came and took him away and he was never seen or heard from again. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Allende
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Proyect's blog column is pretty dead-on. The Battle of Chile is an excellent, if chilling movie, that I saw in 1978. It clearly shows the depth of the radicalization that was going on: a society careening towards revolution and civil war, the growth of the cords, the Chilean soviets, but where the resolute (and ruthless) leadership with a clear perspective was heavily weighted in the camp of counter-revolution. A socialist I knew at the time talked about what happened in Chile not as merely a coup, but exactly that: a counter-revolution, where due to lack of leadership Pinochet was able to carry out in a short order exactly what Franco had intended in July 1936, but what the masses made him work for over three years. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Allende
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hey, sometimes one has to struggle and not just roll over and die, because inaction, like in Warsaw in WW2 or in Paris in 1871, would have accomplished nothing. In the Claude Lanzman film Shoah, a Polish survivor of one of the Nazi death camps is interviewed-a guy who actually escaped. He talked about the understandable demoralized attitude of many of the inmates, but said the worst ones-the people he developed a certain contempt for, were the political dissidents: the social democrats, liberals and even communists, the ostensible leaders who shuffled around mumbling about how all was lost, with collaboration and building relationships being the only possible option for survival which only further eroded morale and contributing further to the problem. His exhortations to them that it was 'do or die' and the only actual option was to struggle and plan a break or an uprising were brushed aside as the exhortations of a callow and unsophisticated youth. Yeah, but the Nazis got machine guns etc etc. he recited them saying. What happened to those guys he was asked? Oh, like I told them would happen, the Nazi just got rid of em after a certain point. Moreover, as with the Libyan situation, the oppressed people their have every right, nay the duty-the necessity-to pursue their revolution. Your citations to the marxist classics are fine, but as I recall Engels and Lenin-to say nothing of Trotsky (Fascism: What it is and how to fight it)-never preached this type of conciliationist demoralization. One doesn't have to be a high marxist doctor to see that. Moreover, that the Swiss Army or the Israelis would be defenders of the democratic rights of the oppressed in that situation that the workers and peasants should have called on is a pretty novel idea to say the least. I think we should all have properly have a jaundiced view of the Israeli military; the Swiss, however, have their own record-collaborating with the Nazis in world war 2 and the recent obit of one of the top operatives Albert Bachmann, a right wing nut is revealing. Not that Marxist orthodoxy v. seasoned political intuition and toughness required, but I fail to see anything remotely involving the former that in this scenario. Now the role of the Cuban volunteers in Angola would be a different example, we know what side they were on. Events in Cuba and in many places in the Third World show exactly the opposite is possible that revolution can overcome material disadvantages and that it is precisely the conciliatory, vacillating opportunist leaderships that have paved the way to tragic defeats, under the lame excuses of objective limitations, which themselves have their own social bases in the labor bureaucracy and elsewhere. And it was exactly that mentality, more than anything, that contributed to defeat in 1848 where Engels served as a front line soldier: lack of political will and leadership or as a popular saying went at the time regarding the Frankfurt Congress: A 150 Professors, Oh boy, we're sunk! On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 12:29 AM, Paul Cockshott william.cocksh...@glasgow.ac.uk wrote: It is all vert well to speak of strenghtening the cordones, but you are avoiding the issue of how they were to be effectively armed to defend democracy against military dictatorship. Ill trained forces with small arms can not take on an army with tanks artillery and jets. We see this played out today in Syria and Libya. In the latter the rebels can only hold their own where NATO air power is used in their support. If you turn back to the Warsaw uprising you see the same result. As I recall it was Lenin who emphasised that it was the existing states that prepared revolution by arming and training millions and millions of poor peasants and workers. It was Engels in The Prussian Militay Question who emphasised the same point. Only a military system based on general civilian militarisation like those in Israel and Switzerland provides for this in time of peace. That is why I think the only hope Allende would have had would have been to embark on a general militarisation of society with Swiss or Israeli advisors. Paul Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] WHEN LIBERALS CHAMPION IMPERIALISM
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hey, what else is new? Below is a link, Liberals March to War from a libertarian right wing blog by a supporter of Ron Paul on this. Sad commentary when you're attacked from the left, so to speak, by these guys. http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/03/22/liberals-march-to-war/ On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 10:14 AM, Dennis Brasky dmozart1...@gmail.com wrote: * *Look who's applauding the loudest for Osama bin Laden's assassination--liberal figures who talk about peace and respect for national sovereignty. http://socialistworker.org/2011/05/11/liberals-champion-imperialism Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marxian-Dialectical, 'Intra-Dual' Design of Democratic-Communist Constitutions
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Is Professor Irwin Corey part of this outfit? On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 12:22 PM, profit...@aol.com wrote: Marxism ListServ Participants, The Equitist Advocacy group has just published -- circa theMay 5th, 2011 anniversary of the birth of Karl Marx -- a detailed NON-New-Dark-Ages solution to theHell-On-Earth horrors that are now diarrhoeally deluging daily, globally,before our traumatized eyes: thetotalitarian, HUMANOCIDAL self-degeneration of the globalcapitalist system. An interesting aspect of this proposed solutionis that it was apparentlyderived via the Equitist Advocacy group's special solution of theF.E.D. Psycho-Historical Dialectical Equations for the meaning ofthe self-reflexive function of the Capitalist System, and for thenew social relations of production ontology which thatself-reflexion would be expected to irrupt. That is, the Equitists apparently solved for the meaning ofthis self-aufheben self-transcending self-operation of the Capital-relation [Marx]upon itself, in the F.E.D. Model of the Meta-Evolution of the Human-SocialRelations of Human-Social Relations Self-Re-Production, that is, for the Delta-Kterm of its K-squared component, clarified by a simultaneous solution for the probable meaningof the Delta-h term of the h-squared component in the F.E.D.Dialectical Theory of Everything, Dialectic of Nature [asTotality] Equation-Model of the Universe as a whole. For more on this solution of the Psycho-Historical DialecticalEquations, see the fourth of the [RE-]SOURCE links listed below,and -- http://www.dialectics.org/dialectics/Primer_files/4_F.E.D.%20Intro.%20Letter,%20Supplement%20B-1,%20v.2_OCR.pdf Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] How Bernard-Henri Levy fought his way into chronic interventionism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Boy, BHL, DSK, OBL, my head's spinning. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Gil Scott heron, RIP
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Why is that an anti-feminist line, isn't it rather a comment on Madison Avenue spiels for toothpaste and mouthwash etc? On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 5:59 PM, Alan Bradley alanb1...@yahoo.com wrote: The revolution will not give your mouth sex appeal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8 http://www.gilscottheron.com/lyrevol.html Obviously the anti-feminist line is a major flaw in an otherwise awesome song/poem. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] My favorite passage from B. Traven
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah but, who was B Traven? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_Traven Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == like obscurantist medieval philosophy? On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Peggy Dobbins pegdobb...@gmail.com wrote: understood. I used to think that repressed intellectual advances were inevitably re-discovered. Now I'm not so optimistic* * * Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hey, wasn't this guy one of the Soviet regime's ideological Three Card Monte men? The Healyites were into this intellectual psychology as well which is designed to convince people to abandon their common sense for some dimly understood dogma that served as theological window dressing for obeisiance to the august and wise leader. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_card_monte On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:13 AM, Tom Cod tomc...@gmail.com wrote: like obscurantist medieval philosophy? On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Peggy Dobbins pegdobb...@gmail.com wrote: understood. I used to think that repressed intellectual advances were inevitably re-discovered. Now I'm not so optimistic* * * Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Up to a point. The Workers League always said common sense is the lowest form of formal logic, implying they had way surpassed that or were they cult folks who hadn't even reached that level, members of a schizophrenic group? I could never spar with their Rube Goldberg logic, although my canine intuition told me it was bullshit. Common sense says don't drink Kool-Aid with poison in it, even a dog knows that. A Great Leader with a background in philosophy and the radical left and a confirmed opponent of bourgois ideology who talked all kinds of mumbo jumbo about dialectics, Jesus, and the fascists comin' up the road and all kinds of other shit at all hours of the day and night said different, however, with tragic results Leaving that aside, I don't think common sense is the accumulation of error, nor have I ever intuitively agreed with bashing of empiricism and pragmatism which represents a common approach to deconstructing mysticism. Carl Davidson has had some worthwhile ruminations on this subject recently. Tellingly, self avowed Stalinists are those who most loudly have denounced this heresy. The most important thing is for folks to keep their own counsel and be critical minded and skeptical, in that regard the intuitive rules of thumb of pragmatism et al are most important. Hey, this tool doesn't work . . . hmmm, must not be too good. I had an email exchange with a survivor of the Peoples Temple back in 2008 around the 30th anniversary of the Jonestown tragedy, mentioning I had been in a certain leftist cult group she was actually familiar with, being someone who had emerged out of the radical movement in the Bay Area. How could this have happened? You know full well 'how this could have happened' she responded. On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 8:22 AM, David P Á da...@miradoiro.com wrote: Anything that can help people abandon common sense is to be welcome, given how common sense is the accumulation of error. --David. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Edmund Wilson in To the Finland Station does a good job of dismissing dialectics or explaining why it is OK to have that attitude. He sees that as baggage from the whole school of German Philosophy that Marx emerged out of which in turn was rooted in the environment created by counterrevolution and reaction to the Jacobins and the French Revolution and its relatively transparent libertarian ideology, which Germany was in the heartland of then. Thus, even after 1815 the French were never so mired in that stuff, having had huge and recent traditions of revolution to look to. Nonetheless, Wilson was a huge, but not uncritical, admirer of Marx and his ideas, which like most people he came to in his own varied ways, mostly through empirical observation. The idea that he had a schematic playbook where he struggled to connect the shifting dots ideologically is silly, said Wilson. Moreover, to hoist dialecticians on their own petard, he characterizes it as schematic, formalistic and a simple minded shibboleth: thesis, antithesis, synthesis.. . Yeah, OK. Later writers have commented on this stuff as the reification of Marxism, creating a dense theory that can form the ethos and self justification for a layer of intellectuals as high priests needed to interpret this stuff instead of looking to this as a question of the struggle of the working class around its own interests. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == and also touches on the ridiculous attempts of Soviet philosophers to impose this scheme on science which operates through the scientific method not through cherry picking evidence to support some pre-conceived theory, whether dialectics or creationism or anything else. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Atheist? it's not an ideology, its a political movement and not one about genuflecting before some historical demigod, that's the whole point. That's the social psychology of religion. On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Peggy Dobbins pegdobb...@gmail.com wrote: I am curious to see a short hand short list of what a Marxist who dismisses dialectic materialism lists as Marxist? Marx-isms? Marxistic? Marxisticisms? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == wannabes then On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:33 PM, Michael Smith m...@smithbowen.net wrote: On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 18:05:26 -0700 Tom Cod tomc...@gmail.com wrote: the high caste screeds of Old Money neocons like Allan Bloom and Roger Kimball I don't get this at all. The individuals mentioned are complete parvenus. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah OK, ancient slaveowners and aristocrats didn't have credit cards. Many of these characters were in fact in the camp of the propertied classes and against the popular cause, Plato most notably, who said Democritus should have been killed and his works burned which is why ruling class ideologues love him so much. On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 6/2/11 9:05 PM, Tom Cod wrote: Thanks, this one from her site is choice: dialecticians use obscure, non-materialist language invented by ruling-class hacks 2400 years ago to make their theory work Yeah, everybody knows about Anaxagoras and his American Express gold card. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Two books I read as a layperson on Marx that are good and give him his due without being hagiographies: http://www.amazon.com/Karl-Marx-His-Life-Environment/dp/B000O3BL5G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8qid=1307090795sr=8-2 http://www.amazon.com/Finland-Station-Review-Books-Classics/dp/1590170334/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8qid=1307090951sr=8-1 On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 1:05 AM, Vladimiro Giacche' md1...@mclink.it wrote: Just to be clear, like a number of people on here I don't go by Marxist, although I respect the tradition. ...your respect of this tradition appears to be quite selective, just to use an euphemism... Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Bucket Shops
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == CNBC does reruns of 60 Minutes, on which recently they had a segment on derivatives known as credit default swaps, ya know those side bets that helped implode the financial markets back in 2008 (I wonder if that had been dealt with in Das Kapital?). In the course of this program it is mentioned that this stuff actually existed previously in storefronts resembling New York's off track betting parlors that were commonly known as Bucket Shops where you could go in and place bets on the performance of certain stocks without actually owning them. Apparently this had contributed to the 1908 panic and that as a result they had been outlawed by the 1920s as a form of gambling. These were relatively small scale operations compared to CDSs which were specifically exempted by Congress in 2000 from state anti-bucket shop laws. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_shop_(stock_market)#History_in_the_United_States Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Bucket Shops
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == a little different. In an option as I understand it, one must exercise the same to buy at a preset price. This exists elsewhere. I'll give you 100 bucks to keep your car for sale to me for 2000 bucks for a certain period. In this scenario, in particular the CDS, insurance policies were sold against the default of mortgage securities to third parties who held no interest in the same. Like me buying fire insurance in someone's house even though I don't have an insurable interest in the same. Guy defaults on his mortgage, not only does bank lose the principal, but that bank or another institution has to pay out to a third party, who suffered no loss, another similar amount. collapse of realty prices comes along and the whole house of cards comes crashing down, aggravated by clever bears who saw money to be made, particularly out of the subprime stuff that was virtually predestined to fail. Yeah, it does differ from traditional short sales or selling short scams where stocks are borrowed in kind from a seller with a promise to be paid back in the same form and then cashed out with a view to a decline in price; then the paper is rebought at rock bottom prices and tendered back to the lender to settle the debt for big profit. Stories of colorful characters like Jay Gould and Daniel Drew exist who did that to their own companies when they decided they were through with them, stuff that is illegal today and which were glaring examples of what was called even in those days financial piracy showing how often capitalists much less to advance industry and the forces of production as they claimed they did. Drew is the guy from whom the term watering stock comes from. In the 1820s before entering Wall St., he worked as a cattle driver bringing herds down from upstate to the city. He'd stop off around Harlem, then a nearby rural hamlet, and water em up before they hit the scales downtown. His downfall came in a big overreach when he tried to do that to Commodore Vanderbilt-supposedly a big infrastructure guy-circa 1870 who bankrupted him by pumping his entire fortune in keeping his stock prices up. On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 7:13 PM, DW dwalters...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting. The way they are described it sounds like a form of simple stock options which amount to the same thing, betting on the performance of the stock, or the spread between the current price and a future price (up or down). David Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Boston College Fights Subpoena of IRA Interviews
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/10/us/10irish.html?_r=1hpw Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Some thoughts on Jared Loughner and Henry Cockburn
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == If he's restored to competency, he can still plead not guilty by reason of insanity. If he is not restored, then there will never be any trial. If he's found NGI, which seems likely, he will be sentenced to an indeterminate life term in a state hospital. One can be kept in up to the maximum underlying prison term for the offense, except that extensions for two year periods can be ordered on top of that. NGI is only a safe bet where, as here, the outcome could be death or life in prison, otherwise you'll get out sooner by doing your prison term. For example in my role as a public defender, I've got one client who's going on 17 years on a three year prison beef. Oh sure, they let him out to a half way house every once and awhile, but if he tests dirty or raises his voice to someone, back they yank him. I'm hoping to get him out when his latest two year extension runs out in a few months. In my experience in Northern California, judges routinely order the involuntary administration of anti-psychotic drugs to mentally incompetent defendants when that has been recommended by the psychiatrists. I've never seen a defendant object, but the order is made anyway in case he or she decides not to accept them later on. On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On May 25th the Washington Post reported that Jared Loughner was judged not competent to stand trial: Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Turn in DSK case....(FURTHER reformatted)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ironically, HBO recently ran a documentary Sex Crimes Unit about the Manhattan DA's office where two gangster street thugs were convicted of raping a prostitute. The fact that she was a prostitute and had a criminal record was brought up with the DA commenting so what? that means these guys can get away with raping her? Then again, if the defendants were millionaire jet setting politicos the outcome might have been different. Millions of people are undocumented workers in this country. This logic further demonizes them and forces them into the shadows with this logic also being used by their employers to intimidate them. Act up and you're busted. No, the only credibility issues that should have any weight in this case are those related to the incident itself which has forensic evidence supporting its occurrence. Moreover, if New York law is tune with California's, DSK's history of sexual abuse is also admissible to attack his credibility. Thus many French women are aghast at this latest coup de theatre. Tellingly, according to today's NYT, attorney Lisa Friel, the head of the Manhattan DA sex crimes unit featured in the HBO documentary, recently resigned after Vance took DSK's case from her office, a case whose issues she and her colleagues routinely face, but which the bosses assigned to it would have us believe were blind sided by. The victim's lawyer is entirely correct, Vance is backing down due to political cowardice. On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jeff meis...@xs4all.nl wrote: At 10:10 03/07/11 -0400, Fred Feldman wrote: . If they are using her reported background as a reason for exonerating DSK, that would deal a real blow to the right of women to prosecute rape charges. Wow! I finally agree with Fred on something. Well stated! And while I hate to rub it in.. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] My former student on the front page of the New York Times
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, he's our Congressman here on the North Coast; he's also a Vietnam vet. For what it's worth, local Green Party activist and friend of Peter Camejo, Dan Hamburg held the seat for one term as a Democrat in the 90s. Hamburg was recently elected a Mendocino County Supervisor, an office he previously held in the 80s where he's now embroiled with the budget and its attendant pay cuts and layoffs. My colleagues over in the public defender/DA/county counsel County Attorneys Union (Teamsters) were asked to take a 20% cut in pay and benefits but when they threaten to strike like they did in 2006, they still limped away with a hefty 12% cut in the end. On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 12:05 PM, michael perelman michael.perel...@gmail.com wrote: I understand that Mike is a favorite of Nancy Pelosi.I recall that he identified himself as a blue dog.Our politics are obviously far apart, but I do remember him fondly as an excellent student and a friend, even though I'm not aware of any courageous stands he has taken, with the exception of the trip to Iraq. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] PSL Editorial: Libya and the united front
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Here's a link to two of America's main centrist guys and one social patriot which gives an idea of the breadth of support the SP had at the time. I think I remember hearing Sidney Hook once refer to Morris Hillquit as one of his early heroes and role models. He got over 20% of the vote when he ran for mayor of NYC on an anti war platform in 1917; later he met with Wilson at the White House with Socialist Congressmen Meyer London, the latter being an open social patriot, although he cast the sole vote against the Sedition Act in 1918; The other Socialist Congressman, Victor Berger, didn't because the House refused to seat him because of his anti-war views and in fact he was himself, like Debs, convicted under that Act and imprisoned. I think the main focus of Lenin's centrist complaint had to do not with their line on the war, which was pretty stalwart, but their real or perceived caving in to bourgois public opinion around parroting its critiques of the Bolshevik Revolution. Certainly Kautsky, for all his faults, had been an anti-war socialist. Moreover, in the US these centrists also had their differences with Heywood and the IWW supporters in the party who constituted much of the Left Wing of the party whom they viewed as ultraleft. After November 1917, obviously, the Bolshevik Revolution upstaged much of that as a factional issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Hilquit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meyer_London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Berger On 7/4/11 12:12 PM, Eli Stephens wrote: Writing during World War I, Russian revolutionary leader V.I. Lenin differentiated the socialist movement into three sections: the revolutionary left, the social-imperialists (socialist in name, but openly pro-imperialist), and the “centrists.” He focused most of his polemical writing against the “center” group, represented by German socialist Karl Kautsky, who advocated radical positions in theory, but refused to take actions that would risk isolation from the pro-imperialist left. Lenin argued that regardless of their radical pretenses, the “centrists” were “accomplices” of imperialism. This relates directly to the present situation. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Kate Richards O'Hare
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Here's a link to another SP leader who was imprisoned for her anti-war activism that I had never heard of. Sadly, unlike her comrades in that situation, she was a vulgar and outspoken racist, who unfortunately brings to mind certain left wing socialists who wound up with the Nazis later on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_Richards_O%27Hare Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Sales?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == What about Sales? When I was in law school they had whole courses on this, but in my previous history as an acolyte in the Marxist left the whole focus was on production, the labor theory of value and the capitalist's expropriation of the surplus value with the shop worn theory of supply and demand being completely discounted-although I noted in recently reading Value, Price and Profit, Marx appears to give it its due. So, I mean, isn't a sale needed to realize that surplus value. A sophomoric young high priest on a marxist listserv scoffed in my face when I asserted there is overwhelming evidence that supply and demand and subjective factors in the minds of buyers affect prices and market behavior. leaving aside Marketing 101, why is that wrong? Don't we always hear about what the market is thinking or how the prices of various items are affected by rumors and news (and how corporate con artist exploit that)? For example, say I've got an ounce of medical weed, I'm gonna sell it for what someone tells me the value of the amount of labor involved in producing is? Well, maybe I would, but a less scrupulous guy is gonna sell it for what the market will bear and will do whatever he can to increase that ceiling as getting profit by hook or by crook is that kinda guy's guiding light. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sales?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, and the price of that commodity labor, if not its value, natural mean or not, is also determined by the working class through labor action. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sales?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == That's what I'm talking about. Are you the only person who responded to this topic? I wasn't even talking to you, but actually was directing my generalized comments via another individual, whom I've been acquainted with for decades and who has the maturity to interpret my comments about the tone socialists should adopt in the manner it was intended: not as a personal attack on anyone. Then again, as former party cadres and trade unionists we were both socialized against copping a petty bourgois attitude towards people. Look, when workers organize in unions and go on strike for higher wages, aren't they raising the price and value of labor or trying to? and Friedmanite it certainly isn't. quite the opposite. I'm not based in reality about wages? Dude, I work for a living. That's how you talk down to workers? Exactly the hauteur I was referring to. Yeah, my 40 plus years in the movement going back to high school makes me figure I have the right to questions holy dogmas particularly as they relate to how we organize our political work. I regret that you seem to have little respect for that. No, I didn't learn everything from Lenin in high school, but I did and do appreciate his down to earth approach. Quite frankly, I think you should focus more on explicating your ideas more clearly and less on being patronizing to people, twice your age or not. When I said sophmoric, I mentioned no one by name, but I do recall being talked down to like a child by you previously in an offensive way. Yeah, so let's move on with the issues. Glibly telling me-or anyone-I'm vulgar or bourgois etc doesn't do that, doesn't explain anything, being an in-group ad hominem attack that quite frankly is unbecoming of one who apparently is, or aspires to be, an academic professional. Yeah, so let's move on, my intention was to address the issue, not to initiate or revive some personal flame war. A lot is going in society economics wise with the biggest crisis we've had in decades. To me, those with economic expertise should be demystifying and explaining that in an understandable way as part of their contribution to the movement. Mike Perelman seems to be doing that, and if you are, great. We had a guy in the SWP named Dick Roberts who was our house economist and who was able to interpret his ideas on Marxian political economy in topical articles for the party newspaper very well for many years. On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 1:19 PM, Leonardo Kosloff holmof...@hotmail.com wrote: Now before you get carried away by my scoffing, I’m only trying to keep things clear, do you have anything to say about what I said, are you going to engage the argument or just, very ecumenically, complain about priesthood and leave it at that? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Dick Roberts on America's Financial Empires
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == A link to an article by Dick Roberts from 1969. I'm wondering if anyone knows of any similarly pithy articles about the current situation. I remember reading a Time article early on circa 2008 while in a waiting room somewhere when all of sudden I see side bets, meaning derivatives. Huh? mortgage default swaps, sort of like an arsonist buying fire insurance on houses he doesn't own but has plans for. Then again, this type of skullduggery and what was then called financial piracy goes back to the earliest days of Wall Street. The recent bio of Vanderbilt by T.J. Stiles gives a good overview of this with a detour into the early history of US (both Yankee and incipient Confederate) imperialism in Central America during the days of William Walker. http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/isr/vol30/no03/roberts.htm Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] New of the World to Fold in Wake of Hacking Scandal
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The News of the World, at one time the largest circulation newspaper in the world, and a trashy rag by even vulgar American standards, will cease publication after 168 years in the wake of the current hacking scandal involving it. Murdoch really is a gangster in the mold of Hearst or worse. In one case two murder suspects were aided in hacking and surveilling the inspector in charge of investigating them and their crime. In the other high profile case recently exposed, they hacked into the voice mail of a missing 13 year old girl-who was later found raped and murdered-and listened to and deleted her messages. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/08/world/europe/08britain.html?hp Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Andy Coulson arrested
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/former-tabloid-editor-arrested-pm-cameron-promises-full-investigation/2011/07/08/gIQAlujP3H_story.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Belarus Formula
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, several months I spent living in South Florida in the early 80s cured me of too much uncritical Castro worship. Sure, I could have just glibly dismissed all those Cubans as gusanos, but all one million plus of them? coming from me, a Yankee former middle class student well, or not so well, versed in US leftist papers and dogma? History is never so simple, but clearly, lifting the US embargo of Cuba could only aid all Cubans in building a better future. On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Tristan Sloughter kungfoog...@gmail.com wrote: What I hear about Cuba's democracy sounds very much like the claims I get from people about Libya's democracy. But my understanding is it actually exists in some form in Cuba? That is, democracy is very strong at the lower levels of government and the whole population is very active in this. Though they also have huge turnouts for large elections (in the 90%'s?). Basically here democracy is seen as selecting between two candidates you can hardly tell the difference between every 4 years and anyone without that has no democracy. (I'm not saying that is what Dan was implying! I'm just trying to understand more about what Cuban democracy really is.) So while it may not be a complete 'workers democracy' it has some aspects of 'workers' democracy'? Tristan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Rebekah Brooks Arrested in Phone Hacking Scandal
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/18/world/europe/18hacking.html?_r=1hp Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Jonathan Fast Transcripts
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == My spouse recently closed the used bookstore she had operated for 30 years as a result of a developer buying the block and evicting everybody. Among the stuff that was hiding itself therein are several typewritten manuscripts from 1969-70, apparently written for a master's class on SE Asia with a Marxist perspective. The author, Jonathan Fast, appears to be the same individual who wrote a number of books on the Philippines in the 70s and 80s and who had an article published in New Left Review in 1972. I've tried searching for him on the Internet with negative results. If any knows of his whereabouts or those of his heirs if he's passed on, please let me know so that we can return these items to him or his family. Included among this material is a confidential report about a right wing business seminar on investment opportunities in the Philippines he was mistakenly invited to in London in 1973 as an economic expert on the subject. His unflattering and astute 'fly on the wall' description of this event and its participants is amusing, but the author asked that it not be published for security reasons, noting that not even a representative of the UK Philippine Embassy was allowed to attend. 40 years later perhaps those concerns have been vitiated. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Letter to NYT Book Review on Darrow and Defenders
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Today's NYT book review published a letter I wrote to them taking issue with a review of two bios of Clarence Darrow that impugned Darrow's defense of criminal defendants. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/books/review/entitled-to-a-defense.html?_r=1ref=review Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Letter to NYT Book Review on Darrow and Defenders
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Thanks. Louis' point is well taken as well. On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote: Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Vikdun Quisling, Breivik's precursor and mentor
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Like Judas, we all know who Quisling was, what he represented and what his legacy stands for. While Norway abolished the death penalty in 1905, it found Quisling's case an extraordinary one that merited its application to him. The Norwegian people should consider similar action in the case of this guy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidkun_Quisling#Arrest.2C_trial_and_legacy Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Forwarded from Renato Pompeu
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Well, Wikipedia tells me that Norway abolished capital punishment in 1905 but imposed it upon that rat Quisling nonetheless in 1945 as an *emergency measure* in the wake of World War 2. This might not be the place to get into a stock debate about the death penalty which I generally oppose. For example, Israel, which in no means I seek to defend, doesn't have it either, but made an exception in the case of Eichmann. Leaving all that aside, the issue arises that Trotsky alluded to in Fascism: What it is and How to Fight It about social democrats and the Left being pathetic politically correct hang wringing wimps whose impotence only further emboldens the Right, like a predator with the taste of blood in its mouth. In this case, in the manner of Mao, Trotsky was on to a basic Machiavellian political issue: progressives become the victims of pogroms or they fight back in a meaningful and effective way. Are we going to be out thugged like the chumps by these guys have us marked as, making timid equivocations like the Liberals and social democrats in 1933 about how bourgois legality has to be upheld-for the fascists-or are we gonna kick ass which is an aspect vassilating sections of the populace, including the less enlightened sections of the proletariat look to, rightly or wrongly; that liberals as a metonym for the whole Left, are a bunch of contemptible losers whose fate we need not be troubled over. Any way you slice this it, payback time is coming for this guy. The Labor Party youth gets massacred by this CadreKiller and we're gonna make politically correct liberal apologies for him as a lone schizo nut? I don't think so. On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == (Renato, please use plain-text when posting to the list.) Dear Tom, in the case of Quisling, the death penalty existed before the crimes he was convicted for. Nullum crimen, nulla pena, sine lege. If we do not want to be so barbarous as this guy, we cannot invent a penalty after the crime was comitted. Thank you for your attention, Renato Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Alexander Cockburn responds on Lind/Bleivik
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, I became more disappointed with Lind as a supposed non-neocon when I ran into a book he wrote about ten years ago apologizing for the Vietnam War on, you guessed it, Cold War bases which he claims the ossified pundits of the Left and the Right just didn't get. Say what? talk about ossified! Not a new or revisionist theory at all, but rather the same warmed over Kennedy-Johnson liberalism that Halberstam and Sheehan rightly trashed in The Best and the Brightest and Bright Shining Lie, that these guys just didn't get the idea that there was an anti-colonial struggle going on there independent of global superpower politics that was the main aspect of it. On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: * * * * Unfortunately, Alexander does not engage with what I wrote. I specifically said that Lind’s articles were not objectionable except one. I guess he still stands pat on this one unfortunately: 4GW theory warns that we now face a world of cultures in conflict, that we must defend Western culture and that many, perhaps most, other cultures are threats, especially when they flood Western countries with immigrants. Cultural Marxism welcomes immigrants who will not acculturate precisely because they are threats to Western culture. Rather sad, really. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fullerton Cops Beat Homeless Guy to Death
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Five Fullerton cops beat a homeless guy to death the other day. His father aptly described this as a hate crime against the homeless and mentally ill. Much of the incident was captured on video, notwithstanding the cops' confiscation of all the cellphones of folks around they could get there hands on. Brings to mind incidents in New Orleans during Katrina. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/27/police-beat-homeless-full_n_911419.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] NEW BOOK: Zinoviev and Martov: Head to head in Halle
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Weren't Martov and his group part of the Soviet government at one point? BTW, title of the book? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == First of all, the Greek religion was not based on or closely related to this at all. In fact the story of the Maccabees is about a war between them circa 150 BC. The Greeks viewed the Hebrews and the Baalites as mindless uncultured barbarians who ate their children or who would if God told them to, a tradition they viewed as alien to their humanistic ethos which also justified the imperialism of Alexander and his successors during this period which only brought culture to these benighted folk. Yeah hey, I got sent to a church school where we were taught how great all this was, how the Israelites had a contest one time with this other tribe where each sacrificed a bunch of cattle, but God only responded (with lightning?) to the Israelites giving them the signal to wipe out their opponents. Yeah and of course the one good thing that was supposedly superior to those hedonistic pagans and their multiple gods, was the monotheism of the Christians and the Jews, implying one ruler or monarchy-or the Roman emperor, is a better form of existence say than rule by council or Senate of deities. The first time I ever heard the word reactionary was in this religion class in 7th grade circa 1965 which the Anglican priest explained was what those bad communists called good god fearing people. To the extent that he referred to himself as one, he was telling the truth. Brings to mind that scene in Midnight Express, where the prisoners in the Turkish prison are forced to push a mill gear around for no purpose while chanting, Left Bad, Right Good! I was intrigued when I was in the Middle East and actually a temple to Baal from circa 200 BC partially intact, a domed structure in the sophisticated Hellenic style. Hey, from what I learned in school I expected some kind of wretched hovel. Then again the Phoenecians and the Carthaginians were supposedly into this tradition. Crucifixion was one their contributions to Roman culture. When the Romans finally wiped them out in a major act of genocide, they justified this in part on the basis of the child sacrifice they were supposedly into and the Nazis, through the likes of Julius Streicher in Der Sturmer, talked about this as well as it related to the Jews. In our 50s US world in church school, however, Abraham-as depicted by Charlton Heston-was praised for willing to sacrifice his son. Oh sure, God would never have made him do it, but Abraham mindless (call it faith) willingness to obey such a command from a rightful ruler was considered most praiseworthy and part of what the Free World and the American Way were all about. Bakunin has an excellent screed railing against all this: God and the State. On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Tristan Sloughter tristan.slough...@gmail.com wrote: I was starting to look around for books on the creation of the Abraham myth and the religions based on it -- like how the Greek and Canaanite religions influenced the myths and how the Torah was pieced together by the various authors. As well as on the Eastern religion creations, since those I know the least about. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Palymra, in eastern Syria. On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 5:00 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 2:38 AM, Tom Cod tomc...@gmail.com wrote: I was intrigued when I was in the Middle East and actually a temple to Baal from circa 200 BC partially intact, a domed structure in the sophisticated Hellenic style. Very interesting. Where was that? I recently visited the Philistine temple of Dagon supposedly demolished by Sampson in Gaza. (Today it's the Great Mosque, of course.) In our 50s US world in church school, however, Abraham-as depicted by Charlton Heston-was praised for willing to sacrifice his son. Oh sure, God would never have made him do it, but Abraham mindless (call it faith) willingness to obey such a command from a rightful ruler was considered most praiseworthy and part of what the Free World and the American Way were all about. I imagine Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling may be a more intelligent (which is not necessarily to say valid) defense of Abraham. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Are you serious? What Hellenic god(s) had a similar story to Jesus. Prometheus? he was human and it was the gods that tormented him, not earthly authorities. On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Tristan Sloughter tristan.slough...@gmail.com wrote: Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] 1493 reviewed
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Sure like when the Aztec Navy took over Europe as part of their effort to find an Eastern Route to China. I mean it. That human's exploratory urges were a function of class society (any class society) AND intrinsic curiosity about what was over the next hill, makes it highly likely, Columbus' (and the Spanish monarchy) motives notwithstanding, the introduction of Euro-germs/infections was inevitable. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Henry Ford as Fascist Kingpin
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I'm currently reading Henry Ford and the Jews: The Mass Production of Hate about Ford's anti-semitism. I had heard vague intimations of this, but hadn't realized that he had politically organized around these sentiments to the extent he had. Now, to those wags who would split hairs saying he wasn't really fascist or a Nazi, Ford would agree, being an individual who was sui generis and who would have (and did in this period) sought to have himself and his ideas recognized as top dog in this area as Fordism. Needless to say, there was absolutely no place for unions in this schema. Ford published a newspaper called The Dearborn Independent starting in 1920 which became a national and international vehicle for the most vicious anti-semitic venom. In fact, it was this publication that first gave the first wide circulation to the notorious Protocols of the Elders of Zion which were brought to Ford's attention circa 1919 by a White Russian emigre named Boris Brasol who convinced Ford that this was also some kind of Bolshevik screed as well and it was from this source supposedly that the Nazis-the ones in Germany-obtained it. These articles were published in a pamphlet The International Jew which Ford widely promoted and which the Nazis carried German translations of on their lit tables. The book says that for many years Hitler had a portrait of Ford in his Nazi Party office. This is linked to the development of Ford's regime of corporate gangsterism that he instituted along with cronies like Harry Bennett of the Service Department, not just within his plants, but more generally in society in Dearborn and the Detroit area. There is some irony in the fact that Brasol was Russian with Russia having been an Allied power. Thus according to certain Allied propaganda, it was the jews who were behind the Kaiser and in fact there was probably at that time less anti-semitism in Germany than in Russia or even France, land of the Dreyfus Affair. It was for that reason that Jacob Schiff refused to back the Allied war loans before April 1917. So much for Wilsonian Ideals of freedom and democracy that The Allies supposedly stood for. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Comment on Sylvia Nasser's Grand Pursuit
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == [This individual, who wrote A Beautiful Mind now breezily takes us down a journey through the history of political economy. The following is a comment I posted on Amazon about her] Yes, I've got to say I watched Ms. Nasar being interviewed on CSPN2's Book-TV on 9/17/11 in which she gave an atrocious presentation worthy of a Saturday Night Live caricature. It seemed every fourth word was ya know; all she needed was to be chewing gum to flesh out the role. Turns out she's considered a serious intellectual, but unfortunately didn't have any critique of Karl Marx's ideas besides glibly tossing out shopworn personal attacks against him. Yes, as Ms. Nasar stated, Isaiah Berlin's biography is an excellent and fair overview of Marx's life and work, but one that will set one straight from notions bandied about by Ms. Nasar that Marx was a rich idler. In reality, he lived in difficult circumstances most of his life, struggling hard to make ends meet, having been evicted from numerous rentals along with his family and with more than one of his children dying because he couldn't afford to provide them necessary medical care. Edmund Wilson's review of Marx in To the Finland Station gives a similar take on Marx's life and work with more inquiry into his personal life and foibles and the conditions of economic hardship he struggled with; for sure not as tough as those of the workers in the industrial slums of Manchester, but by no means a bourgois life of ease and comfort either. Thus, both authors would find preposterous Ms. Nasar's assertion that Marx, as opposed possibly to Engels who was the scion of a prosperous Anglo-German capitalist family, had income within the top 5% of British households. Moreover, the idea that Marx as an economist, intellectual and activist had his work subsidized by others is unremarkable. It is also incontestable that he produced, in addition to collaborative projects with Engels and others, a massive body of work on his own, most notably his magnum opus Das Kapital. What person in that situation is not subsidized by grants, donations or a salary unless he or she is independently wealthy? Ms. Nasar at Columbia? How often did Alfred Marshall step out of a library? who knows? what does it matter? Why substitute petty gossip for confronting the ideas of these thinkers? I will defer judgment until I peruse her written work but at this point Ms. Nasar comes across like a superficial media pundit and a political hack and not as a serious academic. It needs noting that according to Wikipedia, Ms.Nasar's family background is with the CIA. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Love and Capital: Karl and Jenny Marx and the Birth of a Revolution
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The problem with this treacly presentation is that it responds to petty character assassinations of Marx by bourgois apologists with a hagiographic paen. Look, Marx wasn't Jesus and his ideas weren't about him or Marx's Ideas as the salvation of humanity. Rather Marx should be understood in the historical context of the development of revolutionary struggle in the wake of the French Revolution and the emergence of industrial society and the industrial working class. It was in that context, as an activist in the incipient labor movement that the ideas of Marx and others emerged from the struggle of these masses and the ideas of precursors like Saint Simon, Owen, Fourier, Feuerbach, Babeuf and others and revolutionary activists he knew like Moses Hess and Wm. Weitling. Edmund Wilson in To the Finland Station gives an excellent overview of this period. One scene that captures the spirit of these times is a scene Wilson describes of a Communist League meeting in the mid 1840s, where a young Karl Marx slams his fist down on the table, berating proletarian militant Wilhelm Weitling regarding his continued affinity for Jacobin phraseology like Liberte! Egalite! Fratenity! as outmoded pablum that didn't give the working class the right program of scientific socialism. Previously Marx had questioned Weitling about his obsessive habit of rubbing his ankles. Where did that come from? FROM THE TIME I SPENT IN PRISON WITH SHACKLES ON MY ANKLES!, Weitling basically responded. Yeah right, I'm a dumkopf, Weitling is going poised to kick Marx's punk ass as the meeting breaks up in an uproar with Engels trying to calm things down and prevent a brawl. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Obama Silent on Troy Davis
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/therootdc/post/obama-silent-on-troy-davis/2011/09/21/gIQAH9tIlK_blog.html?hpid=z2 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Class Trumps Race as Social Issue in D.C., Post Says
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == some raw meat for traditional marxists: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-residents-see-class-not-race-as-citys-great-divider/2011/06/17/AGZdU9bH_story.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Red Forty-Eighters
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah but this Soviet era job leaves a lot of people out like Bakunin. On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Rustbelt Radical rustbeltradi...@hotmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == New Post: Red Forty-Eighters http://rustbeltradical.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/red-forty-eighters/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Breaking-Light-Speed l?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Say, I saw on Wikipedia that as of the late 80s the technology existed to produce a vehicle that could move at 5% of the speed of light: an incredible speed, for example that means going the distance from the Earth to the Moon in 30 seconds-to the sun in less than 3 hours. At that rate an object could be sent to the nearest star system, Alpha Centauri, 4 light years away, on a trip that would last 80 years. Once there it would be less isolated, with data back taking only four years to arrive. With advances in microcomputers, the brain and sentient parts of the package could be fairly small reducing the size of the requisite power plant. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Breaking-Light-Speed l?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == obviously it would take time to get up to speed and I was talking about sending a small unmanned probe, maybe the size of a cellphone. Here's the link to Project Longshot, a study conducted by the Naval Academy in conjunction with NASA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Longshot Yes, no, not likely. The problem is that you don't start out at 5%, or 9200 miles per second. N. You'd be custard in a second as you'd be squished all mushy-like at the back of the space ship. It would take a long time to reach that speed and, as important, slow down again. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Breaking-Light-Speed l?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 5:00 AM, Les Schaffer schaf...@optonline.net wrote: This thread reminds of that 5 minute radio show that was on NPR in the 80s called Ask Dr. Science. Dr. Science, can you explain the difference between Organism, Orgasm and Oregonian one listener asked to which he received an authoritative answer, these are kindergarten questions and there ARE kindergarten answer books out there that will at least get you into the discussion on an interesting level. i mean kindergarten as in a level where, with some interesting graphics and cartoons, you can get a reasonable non-mathematical sense of what the theory is about. Geez, No Child Left Behind really has been more of a success than we thought if kindergarden kids are conversant in this obscure stuff. if arrive has any meaning in a physical sense, then we'll have a lot of explaining to do since much physical effects we know about are electromagnetic effects which travel at light speed. what else is there to a thing? a god-like presence that propagates at any speed it wishes? who is the spiritualist now? Uh, its material mass, it's matter. Ya know, like a rock, the physical part, gotta be something to it besides electromagnetic effects. Les Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Red Forty-Eighters
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 7:08 AM, Rustbelt Radical rustbeltradi...@hotmail.com wrote: Tom, yes the Stalinist pictorial leaves out plenty of stuff, is full of caricature paintings of Engels as 'teacher of the proletariat', etc. Thou I am not sure where your 'but' comes in. Jesus, that's an American slang expression for demurring from something someone says. Yeah but, Yeah well. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Breaking-Light-Speed l?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == OK, I'll see if there's some in English translation. Back in 1966 when I was in 8th grade, my science teacher threatened to kick me out of class for questioning these theories which obviously he didn't understand either. Then again, this was a religious school where we were supposed to accept dogmas as revealed truth. We had similar experiences with the priest in religion class. On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Les Schaffer schaf...@optonline.net wrote: the Soviet high school textbooks were excellent on this stuff. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine was on Bill Maher last night sporting an IWW hat talking up the Wall St. protests along with Michael Moore. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Militant report on Eva Chertov memorial meeting
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, and I'd have to really question the veracity of the horror story about fraction minutes. Sadly, this outfit has a long history of lying personal attacks and contrived accusations against opponents within the movement, only slightly less odious than that of the Healyites. I don't have a lot of experience with SA, but I do know that Jeff Mackler and SA in the Bay Area has been playing a leading role in the mass movement, unlike the SWP. For example, when Geronimo Pratt, a Black Panther who served decades in prison as a result of a police-FBI frame up was released, a monster meeting of a couple thousand people was held at Mission High School that I attended which was chaired by Jeff Mackler of Socialist Action. I don't remember seeing the sectarian SWP there, although I'm sure they had a couple people selling their paper there. That its designated spokesperson here would talk about their sub drive for their paper-whose results are entirely unremarkable-as evidence of their political vibrancy in relation to the rest of the Left is another telling sign of that once promising group's sectarian ossification. Yes, maybe too much time is spent whining by people on that ex-member list, as ex-cultists are wont to do and I and others have sometimes chided some of them about that. For what it's worth, however, everyone I know over there, cult victim recovery group or gossip shop or whatever, is involved in political activity with brighter prospects than this isolated and embittered cult. So let's hear Socialist Action's response to this slander. On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 5:14 AM, Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 1:22 AM, jay rothermel jayrother...@gmail.comwrote: Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Militant report on Eva Chertov memorial meeting
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == it's worse than that, now they're resorting to Stalinist like slanders calling other Trotskyists scabs and finks. On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 6:19 PM, DW dwalters...@gmail.com wrote: == Jay, seriously...when all the group does in push subs (all year) and sell books, this hardly constitutes 'opportunties for working class politics'. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Militant report on Eva Chertov memorial meeting
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == OK, that's fine, but an attack like this by them on a group that was founded by people who had been central leaders of the SWP for decades is not only outrageous and despicable but a further sign of their political degeneration. On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: Personally, I'm rooting for 'em not to bother. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Israeli Arab Mosque Torched by Zionists
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == A mosque in an Arab community in Israel known as allies of the Zionists gets its reward: burned down by Zionist ultra rightists. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/world/middleeast/mosque-burning-frays-ties-between-israel-and-arab-allies.html?src=recg Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Mormon economics and Hutterites
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Before we get too weepy-eyed about this let's not forget the reactionary attitude towards women embodied in particular by the Utah Mormons led by Young. On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Dan d.koech...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Then, after the so-called Mormon Wars, Utah became a State. Young and the other leaders decided to integrate into the US instead of creating a separate State of Deseret (which was their original intention) while retaining complete control of the legislature and judiciary through the LDS. Well then, the pioneering spirit became a glorification of Mormon achievements, but the need for a command economy disappeared as Utah was now an integral part of the US and shared its economic destiny. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Mormon Commutarianism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == . . . type patriarchy . . . On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 9:00 PM, Charles Nuckolls charles_nucko...@byu.edu wrote: What you refer to is the United Order, the largest scale experiment in cooperative economics ever undertaken in the United States. Engels, in fact, considered it interesting enough to send a personal representative to Utah to find out more. Utah was once communist -- a fact that would surprise many, including many contemporary Mormons. For more, check out the book, Building the City of God, by Leonard Arrington and Dean May. Then, for fun, compare the United Order to the Paris Commune. Best wishes, Charles Nuckolls Brigham Young University Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Yemeni Women Burn Veils in Protest
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/yemeni-women-burn-traditional-face-body-veils-to-protest-government-crackdown-on-protesters/2011/10/26/gIQAllQQIM_story.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Video of Oakland PD attack on Occupy Oakland last night
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.facebook.com/pages/OccupyMARINES/246310432083819?sk=info Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Video of Oakland PD attack on Occupy Oakland last night
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Back in 1970 some of us on the Left referred to that time in the wake of Cambodia and Kent and Jackson State as the 1905 of the Student Movement What's happening today brings to mind 1905 in a broader social sense. It seems like the OWS could be beginning to take on the character of the early councils or soviet movement in Russia in 1905 or what happened along those lines in Argentina a few years ago. On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 5:42 PM, Tom Cod tomc...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.facebook.com/pages/OccupyMARINES/246310432083819?sk=info Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hedge's Marx Bashing
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yes, and its interesting to see how this attitude played out in Russia up to a point. There the Bolsheviks were one trend of the revolutionary movement where the main tendency for many years, nay decades, were the Social Revolutionaries, descended from the more amorphous Peoples' Will or Populists, the altar upon which Lenin's own brother was sacrificed in 1887. And in fact the SRs, actually the largest political party in Russia at the time, played a major role in the revolution that opened up in 1917, particularly in the countryside and were part of the Soviet Government at one point. The Soviet decree on land was adopted verbatim from their program. It seems I recall Edmund Wilson talking about seeing grim old populists, veterans of the movement (ya know, the way people in the 60s talked about the radical movement) with their sense of satisfaction that they had lived to see the day of the demise of the detested old order and their determination, like the revolutionaries in France 125 years earlier, to carry it through to the end, no matter what. On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Being a historian, I don't want to disparage historical questions, but I'm pleased to see my old friends generally keeping it in perspective. Setting aside the entire careers of Marx and Bakunin, the problem is that anarchist and socialist mean different things, depending on who's using the term. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ?Black Bloc Anarchists?: A Section of the Lumpenproletariat
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Nah, they're brattish petty-bourgois like the Weathermen were. On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Tristan Sloughter tristan.slough...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I have to disagree. Maybe my conception of the lumpen is incorrect but my understand is its those outside of aristocracy, bourgeoisie, proletariats and peasants. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Occupy 4 Jobs
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == No, it's not an attempt to disparage, split from or otherwise belittle OWS. Quite the contrary, as the plain language of the article says it's an attempt at an initiative, Inspired by Occupy Wall St. within which it is vital for activists to remain. Generally, the approach of WWP and PSL has been not to counterpose themselves to the mass movement like so many sects do, but rather to build activities that are juxtaposed and part of that struggle as All Peoples Congress was in the 80s. APC may not have gone anywhere but it was not counterposed to the movement nor was it used as a shibboleth that WWPers used to abstain from the struggle which they were involved in like CISPES and so forth. On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 9:40 PM, sobuadha...@hushmail.com wrote: I can certainly sympathize with WWP cadre suffering through those endless GA gatherings, but am I right in reading this as an explicit criticism of OWS and an attempt to initiate an organizational rival along the familiar lines of the All People's Congress? There are plenty of left groups unhappy with the Occupy Movement but has anyone else initiated their own groups appropriating the Occupy label? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
