Re: [Marxism] Question on Brenner Thesis

2014-12-10 Thread Ed George via Marxism

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Mark Lause:

‘I've raised this question myself several times and also felt like I 
must be missing something.


‘I've never actually gotten an answer that persuaded me that anything 
was at stake other than conflicting ideas of how to define capitalism.’




The debate on the transition from feudalism to capitalism is important 
in itself in that it rests of the ability (or otherwise) of historical 
materialism to explain actual historical events and processes.


In addition to this, insofar as it does address ‘what capitalism is’, 
how it comes into being, how it operates, how it might be superseded, 
the debate and the issues it raises are of practical importance now for 
Marxists (and for people who might not think of themselves as Marxists) 
but who are engaged in the struggle for a better – non/post-capitalist – 
world.



@edwardbgeorge

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Re: [Marxism] Question on Brenner Thesis

2014-12-10 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism

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On 12/10/14 3:41 AM, Ed George via Marxism wrote:


In addition to this, insofar as it does address ‘what capitalism is’,
how it comes into being, how it operates, how it might be superseded,
the debate and the issues it raises are of practical importance now for
Marxists (and for people who might not think of themselves as Marxists)
but who are engaged in the struggle for a better – non/post-capitalist –
world.


I think the most forceful explanation of the political ramifications 
came from Brenner himself in a NLR article )even if it is totally 
wrongheaded), unfortunately behind a paywall. The final two paragraphs 
state:


	Most directly, of course, the notion of the ‘development of 
underdevelopment’ opens the way to third-worldist ideology. From the 
conclusion that development occurred only in the absence of links with 
accumulating capitalism in the metropolis, it can be only a short step 
to the strategy of semi-autarkic socialist development. Then the utopia 
of socialism in one country replaces that of the bourgeois 
revolution—one moreover, which is buttressed by the assertion that the 
revolution against capitalism can come only from the periphery, since 
the proletariat of the core has been largely bought off as a consequence 
of the transfer of surplus from the periphery to the core. Such a 
perspective must tend to minimize the degree to which any significant 
national development of the productive forces depends today upon a close 
connection with the international division of labour (although such 
economic advance is not, of course, determined by such a connection). It 
must, consequently, tend to overlook the pressures to external political 
compromise and internal political degeneration bound up with that 
involvement in—and dependence upon—the capitalist world market which is 
necessary for development. Such pressures are indeed present from the 
start, due to the requirement to extract surpluses for development, in 
the absence of advanced means of production, through the methods of 
increasing absolute surplus labour.


	On the other hand, this perspective must also minimize the extent to 
which capitalism’s post-war success in developing the productive forces 
specific to the metropolis provided the material basis for (though it 
did not determine) the decline of radical working-class movements and 
consciousness in the post-war period. It must consequently minimize the 
potentialities opened up by the current economic impasse of capitalism 
for working-class political action in the advanced industrial countries. 
Most crucially, perhaps, this perspective must tend to play down the 
degree to which the concrete inter-relationships, however tenuous and 
partial, recently forged by the rising revolutionary movements of the 
working class and oppressed peoples in Portugal and Southern Africa may 
be taken to mark a break—to foreshadow the rebirth of international 
solidarity. The necessary interdependence between the revolutionary 
movements at the ‘weakest link’ and in the metropolitan heartlands of 
capitalism was a central postulate in the strategic thinking of Lenin, 
Trotsky and the other leading revolutionaries in the last great period 
of international socialist revolution. With regard to this basic 
proposition, nothing has changed to this day.


---

In other words, Brenner's article was an attack on the Monthly Review 
and everything it stood for. The article is filled with arrogant 
dismissals of Paul Sweezy and all the people who contributed to a third 
worldist orientation over the years, including Andre Gunder Frank who 
despite whatever theoretical differences I had with him was a 
revolutionary to the marrow of his bones.


Meanwhile, Brenner--despite his fire-breathing radical rhetoric--urged a 
vote for Kerry in 2004. (http://www.solidarity-us.org/node/379)


For those who have been on Marxmail for a while and the list that 
preceded it, you are probably aware that I became motivated to examine 
these issues after running into Jim Blaut, a former subscriber who died 
in 2000.


Blaut devoted a chapter to Brenner in 8 Eurocentric Historians, the 
second in planned trilogy that was cut short by his death. The last 
installment was to be a proposal on how to do history that was not 
Eurocentric.


Fortunately, that chapter can be read online here: 
http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/Blaut/brenner.htm. These are the 
opening paragraphs:


	Robert Brenner is a Marxist, a follower of one tradition in Marxism 
that is as diffusionist, as Eurocentric, as most conservative positions. 
I cannot here offer an explanation for this curious phenomenon: a 

Re: [Marxism] Question on Brenner Thesis

2014-12-09 Thread Ed George via Marxism

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Although it's old, for political context this by Louis Proyect is very 
useful: 
http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/origins/brenner_thesis.htm. 
Louis' archived material related to Brenner is here: 
http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/origins.htm and here: 
http://louisproyect.org/category/transition-debate/. There's enough 
material here (whether you agree with it or not) to orientate yourself 
in relation to the political import of the debate.



@edwardbgeorge

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Re: [Marxism] Question on Brenner Thesis

2014-12-09 Thread Mark Lause via Marxism
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I've raised this question myself several times and also felt like I must be
missing something.

I've never actually gotten an answer that persuaded me that anything was at
stake other than conflicting ideas of how to define capitalism.

ML
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Re: [Marxism] Question on Brenner Thesis

2014-12-09 Thread Charlie via Marxism

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It is a way to debate the historical materialist thesis that capitalism 
runs into a barrier of its own making - with obvious political 
implications - in such a way as to avoid emphasis on those implications.


The situation is clearer, and more fruitful in theoretical results, if 
you go back to round one of this controversy, Maurice Dobbs versus Paul 
Sweezy.


Mark L wrote:


I've never actually gotten an answer that persuaded me that anything was 
at stake other than conflicting ideas of how to define capitalism.



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[Marxism] Question on Brenner Thesis

2014-12-08 Thread Gregory Adler via Marxism
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At the risk of being seen as a philistine can someone on the list either
explain or point to something which concisely explains what is at stake in
this dispute  i.e. what does ones position vis a vis the thesis mean if
anything for ones political positions on the viability or otherwise of
capitalism , reform or revolution , forms of organization to enhance
political struggle etc, etc
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