Re: [Marxism] not so fast, Lars!

[Fred Murphy via Marxism]

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Barry, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to lack familiarity with some
basic concepts in Marxist economics, specifically the labor theory of
value. May I suggest this as a starting point -
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/ch02.htm#c6


On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Barry Brooks 
wrote:

> Thanks for the tip Fred. I read George Caffentzis, "Why Machines Cannot
> Create Value...
> https://libcom.org/library/george-caffentzis-letters-blood-fire
>
> What would swell the ranks Marxist revolutionaries?  I'll tell you
> after we get George out of the way.
>
> GC's "defense of the claim that machines do not create value" is a
> failure. His letters repeatedly prove that all human labor can not be
> eliminated. However, that fact does even imply that machines don't
> create any value.  What is this strange "value" that machine output
> does  not have?
>
> Self replication of automation is beside the point except to prove that
> human labor  can never be eliminated totally. OK, but how does the
> fact  that human labor was and will be always be necessary bear on why
> "value" is set by human labor? Self  replicating automation is
> impossible  and productivity  has  various limits, therefore  machines
> can't create value? What a leap of logic! When automation becomes
> self-replicating  will it be able to create value?
>
> "The ratio between workers caloric input and labor output could never
> reach 100%."  What about oil drillers? This false and irrelevant
> conclusion makes it clear that GC is taking sides and resorting to
> lawyer-like facts to win for his side. Damn the truth; just find data.
> Remember "How to Lie With Statistics?"
>
> Yes, machines don't give a "Magical something for nothing." Having
> dismissed magic as a threat to the singular source of value, GC has
> again  tried to divert our attention from the question, "can machines
> create value?"
>
> It all makes sense after one sees what Marx had in mind when he said
> machines can not create value.
>
> It seems that Marx-value is neither use-value nor exchange-value but
> just the wages generated. Since workers are not being paid when
> machines produce things, no value comes from machine production. That
> does not mean that no income is generated or that the output is just
> imaginary.
>
> #
>
> It's not a question of whether machines can do all work or whether AI
> will be smarter than people. The question is will smart machines be
> able to take over so much work from humans that we need to end wage
> dependence? If we believe as an article of faith that machines can't
> create "value" that does not mean that they can't replace workers.
>
> Marxists could insist giving "to each" a share of the non-value output
> produced by machines. That would swell the ranks Marxist
> revolutionaries.
>
> Our strange denial of the impact of machines have on the need for human
> work has rendered most Marxists harmless, and therefore tolerated in
> the academy as representatives of a monopoly radicalism. Capitalists
> also support wage dependence, maximum resource plunder, and the
> delusion that we are creators. All classes of parasites pretend they are
> THE creators. What we have been given and destroyed has no standing in
> the theories of of human pride.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] not so fast, Lars!

[Barry Brooks via Marxism]

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Thanks for the tip Fred. I read George Caffentzis, "Why Machines Cannot
Create Value...
https://libcom.org/library/george-caffentzis-letters-blood-fire

What would swell the ranks Marxist revolutionaries?  I'll tell you
after we get George out of the way.

GC's "defense of the claim that machines do not create value" is a
failure. His letters repeatedly prove that all human labor can not be
eliminated. However, that fact does even imply that machines don't
create any value.  What is this strange "value" that machine output
does  not have?

Self replication of automation is beside the point except to prove that
human labor  can never be eliminated totally. OK, but how does the
fact  that human labor was and will be always be necessary bear on why
"value" is set by human labor? Self  replicating automation is
impossible  and productivity  has  various limits, therefore  machines
can't create value? What a leap of logic! When automation becomes
self-replicating  will it be able to create value?

"The ratio between workers caloric input and labor output could never
reach 100%."  What about oil drillers? This false and irrelevant
conclusion makes it clear that GC is taking sides and resorting to
lawyer-like facts to win for his side. Damn the truth; just find data.
Remember "How to Lie With Statistics?"

Yes, machines don't give a "Magical something for nothing." Having
dismissed magic as a threat to the singular source of value, GC has
again  tried to divert our attention from the question, "can machines
create value?"

It all makes sense after one sees what Marx had in mind when he said
machines can not create value. 

It seems that Marx-value is neither use-value nor exchange-value but
just the wages generated. Since workers are not being paid when
machines produce things, no value comes from machine production. That
does not mean that no income is generated or that the output is just
imaginary. 

#

It's not a question of whether machines can do all work or whether AI 
will be smarter than people. The question is will smart machines be 
able to take over so much work from humans that we need to end wage 
dependence? If we believe as an article of faith that machines can't
create "value" that does not mean that they can't replace workers.

Marxists could insist giving "to each" a share of the non-value output
produced by machines. That would swell the ranks Marxist
revolutionaries. 

Our strange denial of the impact of machines have on the need for human
work has rendered most Marxists harmless, and therefore tolerated in
the academy as representatives of a monopoly radicalism. Capitalists
also support wage dependence, maximum resource plunder, and the
delusion that we are creators. All classes of parasites pretend they are
THE creators. What we have been given and destroyed has no standing in
the theories of of human pride.



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Re: [Marxism] not so fast, Lars!

[Fred Murphy via Marxism]

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Barry, check out George Caffentzis, "Why Machines Cannot Create Value:
Marx’s Theory of Machines" from *In Letters of Blood and Fire*. PDF of
entire book available at
https://libcom.org/library/george-caffentzis-letters-blood-fire

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Barry Brooks via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> DW,
>
> Without labor all income would be profit. The limit of productivity is
> full unemployment, and the necessary transformation of the working
> class into owners.
>
> Marx would not be so slow to see the changes we face, but he was not
> a follower.
>
> Barry
>
> > Barry initiated an interesting digression...Barry believes our species to
> > be parasites. How interesting and indeed, anti-Marxist. That the root of
> > the labor theory of Value is that we, humanity, take nature, build tools,
> > and change our environment. Boo hoo. Back to the trees you scallywags
> > There is no hope!!! No, Marx allowed us to analyses capitalism.
> Everything
> > else is about how we use that analysis. There is no profit without labor,
> > regardless of what it is you automate. It just changes where that power
> of
> > the working class lies. I suggest as an intro probably the best peice of
> > Marxist analysis I've read in the last 5 years as a start before you
> start
> > raising he Green flag off that branch you are clearly sitting on.
> >
> > https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/02/logistics-industry-organizing-labor/
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Re: [Marxism] not so fast, Lars!

[Barry Brooks via Marxism]

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DW,

Without labor all income would be profit. The limit of productivity is
full unemployment, and the necessary transformation of the working 
class into owners.

Marx would not be so slow to see the changes we face, but he was not 
a follower.

Barry

> Barry initiated an interesting digression...Barry believes our species to
> be parasites. How interesting and indeed, anti-Marxist. That the root of
> the labor theory of Value is that we, humanity, take nature, build tools,
> and change our environment. Boo hoo. Back to the trees you scallywags
> There is no hope!!! No, Marx allowed us to analyses capitalism. Everything
> else is about how we use that analysis. There is no profit without labor,
> regardless of what it is you automate. It just changes where that power of
> the working class lies. I suggest as an intro probably the best peice of
> Marxist analysis I've read in the last 5 years as a start before you start
> raising he Green flag off that branch you are clearly sitting on.
> 
> https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/02/logistics-industry-organizing-labor/
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Re: [Marxism] not so fast, Lars!

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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David, funny you should mention Joe's great article, because it brings us
full circle to the critique of Lih with which I started this thread.

Corr describes the concrete reasons why Lenin thought moves toward
socialism were possible (which the "Old Bolsheviks" were denying). Such
reasons included:
"Railways, postal and telegraph communications had contributed to
establishing the infrastructure necessary to accomplish the task of
socialising the basic structure of the economy."
I.e., the logistics of the day.

As I've mentioned previously, Lenin in this period was appropriately manic
about accounting, control and cooperation.

All of which of course are immensely more possible with today's logistics.
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Re: [Marxism] not so fast, Lars!

[DW via Marxism]

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Barry initiated an interesting digression...Barry believes our species to
be parasites. How interesting and indeed, anti-Marxist. That the root of
the labor theory of Value is that we, humanity, take nature, build tools,
and change our environment. Boo hoo. Back to the trees you scallywags
There is no hope!!! No, Marx allowed us to analyses capitalism. Everything
else is about how we use that analysis. There is no profit without labor,
regardless of what it is you automate. It just changes where that power of
the working class lies. I suggest as an intro probably the best peice of
Marxist analysis I've read in the last 5 years as a start before you start
raising he Green flag off that branch you are clearly sitting on.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/02/logistics-industry-organizing-labor/

Labor replaceable? Passseee


David
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Re: [Marxism] not so fast, Lars!

[Barry Brooks via Marxism]

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Louis,

While trying to understand why you owe Vivek a punch, I found the
following...
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/03/abcs-socialism-working-class-workers-capitalism-power-vivek-chibber/
Which has the following ...

"The working class is unlike any other social grouping in the
non-capitalist section of modern society. However penurious it is,
however dominated it is, however atomized it is, it is the goose that
lays the golden egg. It is the source of profits, because unless
workers show up to do their work every day and create profits for their
employers, that principle of profit maximization cannot be carried out.
It remains a dead letter."

Singular source? Labor is not exactly irreplacable, anyway we are all
just parasites on the planet. This is an example of how those who
merely follow Marx are like those who hold that Newton is all we need
in physics.

"We have to start thinking of the nucleus, the core, and the foundation
of modern society, and building and establishing power within those
foundations." The core we haven't started thinking about is that those
few fleas who are running the blood pumps are not the singular source
of value.   

I still don't know about the punch you own him, but those I have
received were not from thinkers like you. I suppose you owe him a punch
for some non-animal reason?

Barry

Observer vs participant
Want to learn more? Taking sides doesn't help.



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Re: [Marxism] not so fast, Lars!

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 4/12/17 12:43 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote:


Kevin Corr rebuts claims of Lih (and by extension Blanc) on April Theses:

http://isj.org.uk/lenins-april-theses-and-the-russian-revolution/


Blanc and Lih will be speaking about this stuff in an HM Panel at the 
NYC conference alongside Todd Chretien, who I suppose will say something 
akin to Kevin Corr.


At least Vivek Chibber is not scheduled to speak at any of these panels. 
I owe him a punch in the nose.


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[Marxism] not so fast, Lars!

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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Kevin Corr rebuts claims of Lih (and by extension Blanc) on April Theses:

http://isj.org.uk/lenins-april-theses-and-the-russian-revolution/
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