Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 8/22/19 6:12 PM, DW via Marxism wrote:

Scholars that have
sought to blame the USSR usually, as I understand it, come from very strong
anti-communist backgrounds who seek to sow any trouble in Russian history
at the feet of communists.


Yeah, well, that doesn't sound much like Tamara Deutscher:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/dewar/1966/katyn-massacre.htm


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Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny

[DW via Marxism]

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I don't have a dog in this fight but I'm unconvinced by any side in this.
For example the citation in wiki Dayne provided actually is from "Institute
of National Remembrance", the Holocaust denying arm for the
ultra-nationalist Polish state that has been attempting to revise Polish
history to make all Poles look like flaming Unitarian liberals. Note, too,
that the "Beria order" doesn't exist on paper and even this "Institute"
fails to provide a single reference to back this up. Scholars that have
sought to blame the USSR usually, as I understand it, come from very strong
anti-communist backgrounds who seek to sow any trouble in Russian history
at the feet of communists. Not to say they are wrong, of course, but rather
there is real issue with documentation that points to too MANY culprits in
what happened there. So much of this history is blinded by ideological bias
I wouldn't support one side or the other.

David Walters
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Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny

[Dayne Goodwin via Marxism]

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On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:23 PM Glauber Ataide via Marxism
 wrote:
> Katyn forest? A supposed soviet crime discovered by...  the nazis?? Do you
> guys really believe this nazi tale?

Katyn Massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
 "The massacre was prompted by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria's proposal
to execute all captive members of the Polish officer corps, dated 5
March 1940, approved by the Politburo of the Communist Party of the
Soviet Union, including its leader, Joseph Stalin. The number of
victims is estimated at about 22,000. The victims were executed in the
Katyn Forest in Russia, the Kalinin and Kharkiv prisons, and
elsewhere."
 . . .
 "A number of Russian historians and organizations such as "Memorial"
openly admit the Soviet responsibility, pointing out inconsistencies
in the alternative versions - primarily the fact that another major
mass execution site in Mednoye was never under German occupation and
contained remains of victims originating from the same camps as those
killed in Katyn, killed at the same time, and even though it was only
exhumed in 90's it contained well preserved Polish uniforms,
documents, souvenirs as well as Soviet newspapers dated 1940."
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Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 8/22/19 2:23 PM, Glauber Ataide via Marxism wrote:

Katyn forest? A supposed soviet crime discovered by...  the nazis?? Do you
guys really believe this nazi tale?



Symbolic acknowledgment of culpability over Katyn murders in 1940 
signals Russia's willingness to face up to its past

Tom Parfitt in Moscow

In a symbolic admission of guilt, Russia's parliament has declared that 
Joseph Stalin ordered his secret police to execute 22,000 Polish army 
officers and civilians in 1940, in one of the greatest mass murders of 
the 20th century.


Today's acknowledgment of Stalin's personal culpability over the Katyn 
massacre comes amid a cautious thaw between Moscow and Warsaw, whose 
recent relations have been thorny at best. It was also seen as a sign 
that Russia may finally be ready for muted self-scrutiny over its 
totalitarian past.


Mikhail Gorbachev admitted in 1990 that the NKVD was to blame for the 
massacre, after a half-century of the Soviets blaming it on Nazi troops. 
However, there has never been a formal statement which implicates the 
Soviet leadership in such explicit terms.


full: 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/26/russian-parliament-guilt-katyn-massacre

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Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny

[Glauber Ataide via Marxism]

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Katyn forest? A supposed soviet crime discovered by...  the nazis?? Do you
guys really believe this nazi tale?








Am Do., 22. Aug. 2019 um 18:33 Uhr schrieb Michael Meeropol via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>:

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>
> yes -- agreed --- that is not just a detail but a disgusting war crime ---
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Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact

[Ken Hiebert via Marxism]

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https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/08/22/hidden-history-the-nazi-soviet-pact-which-russia-now-tries-t
 

The author says, “...the Soviet Union was on the same side of the war as 
Hitler.” 
I am not convinced that this was case.  No doubt many instances can be cited of 
Stalin’s co-operation with Hitler, eg. allowing a German vessel to reach the 
Pacific by way of the territorial waters of the USSR.  Also the author cites a 
joint parade.  But to me the common sense meaning of being “on the same side” 
of the war means going into combat together.   I am not aware that that 
happened, although I’d have to admit the the division of Poland might qualify 
as that.


Further on the Nazi-Soviet pact, this account by John Riddell.

https://johnriddell.com/2019/08/14/my-encounter-with-the-trotskyist-movement/#more-5479
 

Soon the conversation turned to the 1939 Stalin-Hitler pact that ushered in 
World War 2. I gave the standard defense: the Soviet Union was forced to accept 
the treaty in order to win time and gain a geographical buffer to fend off a 
likely German attack.

Dowson countered by informing me that, after the pact, the official Communist 
movement abruptly cancelled their campaign in Canada and globally to unite 
progressive forces against fascism. Then he voiced an idea that was totally new 
to me and that I immediately found convincing. What the Soviet Union may have 
gained militarily through the pact, Dowson said, counted for little compared to 
the impact of alienation and disorientation caused among its millions of 
supporters worldwide.


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Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny

[Michael Meeropol via Marxism]

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yes -- agreed --- that is not just a detail but a disgusting war crime ---
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Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 8/22/19 12:14 PM, Michael Meeropol wrote:


But I never thought Stalin was "wrong" --- just that the Soviets took 
advantage of the pact to take over territory they had no business 
annexing --- I guess a reason why Putin wants to justify the pact since 
he just goggled up Crimea 


If it was only taking over territory, it would be one thing but it 
became something else when the cream of Polish society was killed in the 
Katyn forest.


https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/06/01/the-secrets-of-katyn/
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Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny

[Michael Meeropol via Marxism]

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Whoever wrote this either willfully ignores or REALLY doesn't know about
the failed efforts of the Soviet Union to get the British and French to
ally with them to stop Hitler's attempt to take over Czechoslovakia --- The
Brits and French were anxious for Hitler to go WEST ---

The Nazi- Soviet pact was horrible for the people the Soviets took over but
it did buy Stalin and the Soviets TIME to build up an industrial machine
 when Hitler turned west after conquering Poland ---

What I never could stomach was the WESTERN Communist parties slavishly
following Soviet foreign policy -- even to the extent of, in 1941 before
June 22, attacking FDR for his warlike policies --- a song by the almanac
singers is particularly galling --- I remember a knock down drag out fight
with my father about the pact when I was in my twenties 

But I never thought Stalin was "wrong" --- just that the Soviets took
advantage of the pact to take over territory they had no business annexing
--- I guess a reason why Putin wants to justify the pact since he just
goggled up Crimea 
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