Re: [Marxism] Imperialism: a critique of David Harvey
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Patrick Bond wrote: David's just replied to the latest version of the critique by John Smith, published recently in the Review of African Political Economy: http://roape.net/2018/02/05/realities-ground-david-harvey-replies-john-smith/ I’m not convinced. Harvey claims that Smith’s GPS is cockeyed and that is wrong to interpret the reversal of the East-to-West drain as the same as South-to-North. He says that for him the East means the block consisting of Japan, China, South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore. And he says that “wealth has moved from West to East.” It is of course true that this East has grown much wealthier, and has gained relatively in comparison to the rest of the world. But that is not exactly what he said in his commentary that Smith quoted and in previous works – namely, that the "flow of value" had shifted and has largely been reversed, so that the East is now "draining" value from the West. There is a difference between the amount of wealth in a region and which way the wealth flows. Moreover, as to East vs South, in a 2009 article on Socialist Project (and the next year in The Enigma of Capital), Harvey wrote that this unprecedented shift "has reversed the long-standing drain of wealth from East, Southeast and South Asia to Europe and North America that had been occurring since the eighteenth century." Here, with Southeast and South Asia included, it appears that the reverse drain now goes not just to China, Japan and the "Tigers" but also to poorer countries like India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, the Philippines and Indonesia. Harvey supplies no figures, but I think it hard to believe that the new wealth in Harvey's East is derived from draining value from the West. (All the harder to believe this of Cambodia and Bangladesh!) Where, for example, does China's growth and wealth come from? Above all, from the super-exploitation of hundreds of millions of *Chinese* workers, many of them migrants driven economically out of their rural homes to the cities where they live and labor under miserable conditions (remember the Foxconn suicides) with wages one-tenth or less of those in the West. Yes, China and Japan own lots of US debt. But the rate of return they get on it is close to zero, as Larry Summers has gloated. More generally, China's overseas investment income has been in the red for years. It is an extremely dubious proposition that the flows of centuries have reversed direction and that the East in Harvey’s terms is draining value from the West – and even more dubious that, as he implied previously, that the South is draining value from the North. I can believe that the East, like the West, is draining value from the South. But that is not what Harvey’s GPS tells us. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Imperialism: a critique of David Harvey
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2017/09/03 01:00 PM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism wrote: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2017/09/03/imperialism-a-critique-of-david-harvey/ David's just replied to the latest version of the critique by John Smith, published recently in the Review of African Political Economy: http://roape.net/2018/02/05/realities-ground-david-harvey-replies-john-smith/ Realities on the Ground: David Harvey replies to John Smith John Smith is lost in the desert and dying for water. His trusty GPS system tells him there is fresh water ten miles to the East. Since he believes ‘for East to West’ one should ‘read South to North,’ he heads off to the South never to be seen again. This is alas the quality of the argument he makes against me. The East whereof I speak when I comment that wealth has moved from West to East in recent times, is constituted by China, now the second largest economy in the world (if Europe is not considered as one economy) followed by Japan as the third largest economy. Add in South Korea, Taiwan and (with a bit of geographical license) Singapore and you have a power block in the global economy (once referred to as the ‘flying geese’ model of capitalist development) that now accounts for roughly a third of total global GDP (compared to North America that now accounts for just over a quarter). If we look back at the world as it was ordered in, say, 1960, then the astonishing rise of East Asia as a power center of global capital accumulation will be blindingly obvious. The Chinese and the Japanese now own large chunks of a spiraling US government debt. There has also been an interesting sequence of each national economy in East Asia taking its turn in searching out a spatial fix for the massive amounts of surplus capital being accumulated within their borders. Japan began capital export in the late 1960s, South Korea in the late 1970s, Taiwan in the early 1980s. A lot of that investment went to North America and Europe. Now it is China’s turn. A map of Chinese foreign investment in 2000 was almost totally empty. Now a flood of it is passing not only along the ‘One Belt One Road’ through Central Asia into Europe, but also throughout East Africa in particular and into Latin America (Ecuador has more than half its foreign direct investment from China). When China invited leaders from around the world to attend a One Belt One Road conference in May of 2017, more than forty world leaders came to listen to President Xi enunciate what many there saw as the initiation of a new world order in which China would be a (if not the) hegemonic power. Does this mean China is the new imperialist power? There are interesting micro-features to this scenario. When we read accounts of awful super-exploitative conditions in manufacturing in the global South it often transpires that it is Taiwanese or South Korean firms that are involved even as the final product finds its way to Europe or the United States. Chinese thirst for minerals and agricultural commodities (soy beans in particular) means that Chinese firms are also at the center of an extractivism that is wrecking the landscape all around the world (look at Latin America). A cursory look at land grabs all across Africa shows Chinese companies and wealth funds are way ahead of everyone else in their acquisitions. The two largest mineral companies operating in Zambia’s copper belt are Indian and Chinese. So, what does the fixed, rigid theory of imperialism to which John Smith appeals have to say about all of this? According to John Smith I failed to take up the question of imperialism in The Limits to Capital. I mentioned it only once, he says. The index records some 24 mentions and the last chapter is entitled “the dialectics of imperialism.” It is perfectly true that I there found the traditional conception of imperialism derived from Lenin (and subsequently set in stone by the likes of John Smith) inadequate to describe the complex spatial, interterritorial and place-specific forms of production, realization and distribution that were going on around the world. In this I was later intrigued to find a fellow spirit in Giovanni Arrighi who in The Geometry of Imperialism (written around the same time) abandons the concept of imperialism (or for that matter the rigid geography of core and periphery set out in world systems theory) in favor of a more open and fluid analysis of shifting hegemonies within the world system. Neither of us deny that value produced in one place ends up being appropriated somewhere else and there is a degree of viciousness in all of this that is a
Re: [Marxism] Imperialism: a critique of David Harvey
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I would be surprised if those discussion China as imperialist have read John Smith's book. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Imperialism: a critique of David Harvey
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * In my opinion China has clearly become an imperialist power in the last decade. Nevertheless, its development has a clear uneven character. For those who are interested in this issue I would like to refer to a number of studies and pamphlets: China‘s transformation into an imperialist power. A study of the economic, political and military aspects of China as a Great Power, http://www.thecommunists.net/publications/revcom-number-4; China’s Emergence as an Imperialist Power, http://newpol.org/content/china%E2%80%99s-emergence-%E2%80%A8imperialist-power Is Lenin’s Theory of Imperialism Incompatible with the Concept of Permanent Revolution? https://www.thecommunists.net/theory/imperialism-theory-and-permanent-revolution/ The China Question and the Marxist Theory of Imperialism, https://www.thecommunists.net/theory/reply-to-csr-pco-on-china/ Lenin’s Theory of Imperialism and the Rise of Russia as a Great Power. On the Understanding and Misunderstanding of Today’s Inter-Imperialist Rivalry in the Light of Lenin’s Theory of Imperialism, http://www.thecommunists.net/theory/imperialism-theory-and-russia/ Russia and China as Great Imperialist Powers. A Summary of the RCIT’s Analysis, http://www.thecommunists.net/theory/imperialist-china-and-russia/ Am 04.09.2017 um 07:26 schrieb mkaradjis . via Marxism: POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * "Chinese corporations are investing in mines in Africa and Latin America, ports in Australia, Greece and Sri Lanka, etc." It is fascinating to think the degree to which Chinese imperialism plays such a dominant role in Greece through control of its main port, yet if we were forced to think through old, established dogmatic categories, we would have to insist that Greece was an imperialist country and China was a semi-colonial (or "oppressed") country. It is a good example of how refusing to see Russia and China as imperialist powers seems to me to be a refusal to simply look today's reality in the face. It is true, as Chris says, that it is complicated, "because China is still a source of cheap labor for US, European and Japanese corporations." That was also true of Tsarist Russia, whose vast countryside was immensely more backward than is today's Chinese countryside, yet Lenin, correctly, saw it as an imperialist country. I believe that is called "the law of uneven and combined development." On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote: POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * While I disagree with some of David Harvey's formulations, I think we do have to recognise that the rise of China is a significant change. Chinese corporations are investing in mines in Africa and Latin America, ports in Australia, Greece and Sri Lanka, etc. Does this make China an imperialist power? The situation is complicated, because China is still a source of cheap labor for US, European and Japanese corporations. Chris Slee From: Marxism on behalf of Philip Ferguson via Marxism Sent: Sunday, 3 September 2017 9:00:26 PM To: Chris Slee Subject: [Marxism] Imperialism: a critique of David Harvey POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * https://rdln.wordpress.com/2017/09/03/imperialism-a-critique-of-david-harvey/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/chris_w_slee%40hotmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mkaradjis%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lis
Re: [Marxism] Imperialism: a critique of David Harvey
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * "Chinese corporations are investing in mines in Africa and Latin America, ports in Australia, Greece and Sri Lanka, etc." It is fascinating to think the degree to which Chinese imperialism plays such a dominant role in Greece through control of its main port, yet if we were forced to think through old, established dogmatic categories, we would have to insist that Greece was an imperialist country and China was a semi-colonial (or "oppressed") country. It is a good example of how refusing to see Russia and China as imperialist powers seems to me to be a refusal to simply look today's reality in the face. It is true, as Chris says, that it is complicated, "because China is still a source of cheap labor for US, European and Japanese corporations." That was also true of Tsarist Russia, whose vast countryside was immensely more backward than is today's Chinese countryside, yet Lenin, correctly, saw it as an imperialist country. I believe that is called "the law of uneven and combined development." On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > While I disagree with some of David Harvey's formulations, I think we do have > to recognise that the rise of China is a significant change. > > Chinese corporations are investing in mines in Africa and Latin America, > ports in Australia, Greece and Sri Lanka, etc. > > Does this make China an imperialist power? > > The situation is complicated, because China is still a source of cheap labor > for US, European and Japanese corporations. > > Chris Slee > > From: Marxism on behalf of Philip > Ferguson via Marxism > Sent: Sunday, 3 September 2017 9:00:26 PM > To: Chris Slee > Subject: [Marxism] Imperialism: a critique of David Harvey > > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > https://rdln.wordpress.com/2017/09/03/imperialism-a-critique-of-david-harvey/ > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/chris_w_slee%40hotmail.com > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mkaradjis%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Imperialism: a critique of David Harvey
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Yes, rise of China is very important. And exactly what category it fits in is complex for the reasons you identify. Phil On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Chris Slee wrote: > While I disagree with some of David Harvey's formulations, I think we do > have to recognise that the rise of China is a significant change. > > Chinese corporations are investing in mines in Africa and Latin America, > ports in Australia, Greece and Sri Lanka, etc. > > Does this make China an imperialist power? > > The situation is complicated, because China is still a source of cheap > labor for US, European and Japanese corporations. > > Chris Slee > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Imperialism: a critique of David Harvey
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * > Chinese corporations are investing in mines in Africa and Latin America And military bases in Africa and the Middle East. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Imperialism: a critique of David Harvey
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * While I disagree with some of David Harvey's formulations, I think we do have to recognise that the rise of China is a significant change. Chinese corporations are investing in mines in Africa and Latin America, ports in Australia, Greece and Sri Lanka, etc. Does this make China an imperialist power? The situation is complicated, because China is still a source of cheap labor for US, European and Japanese corporations. Chris Slee From: Marxism on behalf of Philip Ferguson via Marxism Sent: Sunday, 3 September 2017 9:00:26 PM To: Chris Slee Subject: [Marxism] Imperialism: a critique of David Harvey POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * https://rdln.wordpress.com/2017/09/03/imperialism-a-critique-of-david-harvey/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/chris_w_slee%40hotmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com