Re: [Marxism] Syria maps

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

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Problems with "pipeline theories".

1. As the article Louis sent from Porter clearly demonstrates, Qatar's 
vague pipeline idea was blocked by Saudi Arabia (most of the 
conspiracist left don't realise that Qatar and Saudis hate each other). 
A little more on this aspect:


"Qatar has *not even been able to export its gas to neighbouring Bahrain 
and Kuwait* owing to Saudi opposition. What are the chances it could 
have constructed such a pipeline across 1,500 kilometres of Saudi 
territory to Jordan and on to Syria?
Qatar has no problem exporting its gas, in liquefied form, to Europe and 
the Far East, to a diversity of customers, with no dependence on risky 
overland pipelines. But if Doha had wanted that much to build its Syrian 
pipeline, it would have been easier to make the Assads an offer they 
could not refuse, rather than sponsoring an uncertain and ruinous 
uprising.
A quick look at a map demolishes the notion of Syria as a key gas nexus. 
Syria is a dead end: any pipeline to Europe would have to go onwards via 
Turkey. Iran has a border with Turkey and already sends gas there; it 
has no need to go via Syria, nor should US officials have had to devote 
much concern to blocking such a pipeline."


2. That bit from above "if Doha had wanted that much to build its Syrian 
pipeline, it would have been easier to make the Assads an offer they 
could not refuse." Oh, but Qatar is a "Gulf state" and therefore an 
"enemy of the resistance front state led by Assad," I hear you say 
right? Wrong. If the Qatari-Assad fall-out was over some pipeline 
floated in 2009, funny how the Assad and al-Thani families were still 
best mates, and Qatar (like all the rest of the Gulf) came out strongly 
n support of Assad in 2011 (until the level of mass killing just got too 
much for their restive populations to stomach), from 
https://mkaradjis.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/the-gulf-and-islamism-in-syria-myths-and-misconceptions/:


Indeed, the first response of the three regional powers who later emerge 
as the key backers of the Syrian resistance – Saudi Arabia, Qatar and 
Turkey – was to use Assad against the revolution.


For example, on 3 April 2011, Qatari Emir Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani 
sent a letter to Assad declaring Qatar’s support for Syria amid 
“attempts at destabilization” 
(https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/nownews/qatari_emir_voices_qatars_support_for_syria). 
In late March, United Arab Emirates President Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed 
bin Sultan al-Nahayan likewise called Assad to reaffirm that the UAE 
stands by Damascus 
(https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/latestnews/uae_reaffirms_support_for_syria). 
Qatar’s close ally, Erdogan’s AKP regime in Turkey, likewise offered 
Damascus support, only with the mild proviso that Assad carry out some 
of the “reform” that he had promised.


The Saudi Arabian monarchy made similar robust declarations of support 
to the regime; on 28th March 2011, “Al-Assad received a call from Saudi 
King Abdullah, whereby the latter expressed the Kingdom’s support in 
what is targeting us from the conspiracy to hit its security and 
stability” clarifying that “the Saudi Kingdom stands by Syria’s 
leadership and people to put down this conspiracy” 
(http://syria-news.com/readnews.php?sy_seq=130662). Indeed, even as late 
as July, just as Qatar was finally suspending relations with Damascus, 
Saudi Arabia stepped in with a long-term 375 million riyal (US100 
million) loan to Damascus 
(http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MH11Ak02.html), while Kuwait 
threw in another 30 million Dinars 
(http://www.dp-news.com/pages/detail.aspx?articleid=90956); this rivalry 
between Saudi Arabia and Qatar, we will see, played as much a role as 
the later antipathy either felt towards Damascus.


Even when the Gulf Cooperation Council did finally urge an end to 
“bloodshed” in Syria and called for major reforms on August 6, 
expressing their “sorrow” about the situation, they still stressed their 
support for “preserving the security, stability, and unity of Syria” 
(http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/08/06/161072.html).


Notably, this was no different to US policy; responding to questions in 
Congress regarding the different US reaction to events in Libya, where 
NATO was then intervening, and Syria, Hillary Clinton responded: “There 
is a different leader in Syria now [meaning Bashar, as opposed to his 
father]. Many of the members of Congress of both parties who have gone 
to Syria in recent months have said they believe he’s a reformer” 
(http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/FTN_032711.pdf).


3. On the question of Saudi Arabia/ISIS. Discussion above clarified that 
Andrew was not 

Re: [Marxism] Syria maps

[Andrew Stewart via Marxism]

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I'll just write here briefly to apologize for losing my temper in a
previous message. I have my own failings and should not be so thin skinned.

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 11:42 AM,  wrote:

> Louis, if you think readers are so stupid that they can't discern the fact
> I DON'T say that the Saudi government is funding ISIS you are letting New
> York elitism get to your brain. Everyone knows that government policy is
> opposed to al Queda and ISIS while the princes are simultaneously sending
> money to jihadists. The problem is that either you refuse to have any sort
> of nuance about this while libeling people who you have mad delusions about
> or that you are a complete and total nitwit. You make everyone spell it out
> like a grade school teacher in order to avoid your disgusting and
> sanctimonious rants that a speak to the mentality of a stool pigeon.
>
> --I guess so if this is a reference to Russia and Iran intervening in
> Syria to crush that popular uprising.--
>
> And more specifically the US policy that is using their cause to justify
> holding the country hostage until they allow Wall Street to rape their
> economy the way it did Iraq under the de-Baathification policies that
> Clinton and Bush had in the Washington archives for a decade prior to 9/11.
>
>
> On 10/14/16 10:32 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:
>
> Do you understand how politicians can subvert a popular uprising
>
> against a government to serve their geopolitical interests or are you
>
> as stupid as your petty insults?
>
>
> I guess so if this is a reference to Russia and Iran intervening in Syria
> to crush that popular uprising.
>
> But here's the real problem. You write:
>
> "Gee, how ironic that ISIS just so happens to be massed around the areas
> that the Saudis want to gain control of for their fossil fuel cartel.
> Golly, I wonder if any of those maniacal princelings affiliated with the
> House of Saud might be funneling money to ISIS?"
>
> In fact, there are Saudis who are funding ISIS but they do so in defiance
> of the official state policy of opposing ISIS. In fact al-Qaeda and its
> offshoot ISIS are deeply opposed to the royal family.
>
> This confusion is rampant on the Baathist amen corner, which for obvious
> reasons tries to make an amalgam between jihadists and the ordinary Syrian
> rebel who fights not for recreating a caliphate but for the right to live
> in freedom and dignity
>
> Best regards,
> Andrew Stewart
>



-- 
Best regards,

Andrew Stewart
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Re: [Marxism] Syria maps

[Thomas via Marxism]

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As for "maniacal princelings affiliated with the House of Saud funneling money 
to ISIS," that horror would be of world class dimensions:

"There are 15,000 members of the royal family in Saudi Arabia, all 
princes/princesses or better. 

"Part of this is just due to the fact that Saudi Arabia has practiced, and 
still practices, polygamy. The founder of modern Saudi Arabia had at roughly 
100 children, 45 of them sons. His youngest was born 52 years after his 
firstborn."

https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3pp8py/eli5_why_are_there_so_many_saudi_princes_and_how/

T



-Original Message-
>From: Louis Proyect via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
>Sent: Oct 14, 2016 11:04 AM
>To: Thomas F Barton <thomasfbar...@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria maps
>
>On 10/14/16 10:32 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:
>> Do you understand how politicians can subvert a popular uprising
>> against a government to serve their geopolitical interests or are you
>> as stupid as your petty insults?
>
>But here's the real problem. You write:
>
>"Gee, how ironic that ISIS just so happens to be massed around the areas 
>that the Saudis want to gain control of for their fossil fuel cartel. 
>
Golly, I wonder if any of those maniacal princelings affiliated with the 
>House of Saud might be funneling money to ISIS?"
>

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Re: [Marxism] Syria maps

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/14/16 11:42 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:

Everyone knows that government policy is opposed to al Queda and ISIS while the 
princes are simultaneously sending money to jihadists.


Then you need to learn to write more clearly.

"Gee, how ironic that ISIS just so happens to be massed around the areas 
that the Saudis want to gain control of for their fossil fuel cartel. 
Golly, I wonder if any of those maniacal princelings affiliated with the 
House of Saud might be funneling money to ISIS?"


When you say that the princelings are *affiliated* with the House of 
Saud, readers can only conclude that they have the approval of the 
state. Which as you now seem to admit was not what you believe.

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Re: [Marxism] Syria maps

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/14/16 10:32 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:

Do you understand how politicians can subvert a popular uprising
against a government to serve their geopolitical interests or are you
as stupid as your petty insults?


I guess so if this is a reference to Russia and Iran intervening in 
Syria to crush that popular uprising.


But here's the real problem. You write:

"Gee, how ironic that ISIS just so happens to be massed around the areas 
that the Saudis want to gain control of for their fossil fuel cartel. 
Golly, I wonder if any of those maniacal princelings affiliated with the 
House of Saud might be funneling money to ISIS?"


In fact, there are Saudis who are funding ISIS but they do so in 
defiance of the official state policy of opposing ISIS. In fact al-Qaeda 
and its offshoot ISIS are deeply opposed to the royal family.


This confusion is rampant on the Baathist amen corner, which for obvious 
reasons tries to make an amalgam between jihadists and the ordinary 
Syrian rebel who fights not for recreating a caliphate but for the right 
to live in freedom and dignity.


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Re: [Marxism] Syria maps

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/13/16 2:16 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:

Actually Louis that is not Marxism at all, it is geology and a basic
diagnosis of the geopolitical tensions. Whatever ideas you have about
the events in Syria and people who you disagree with has absolutely
nothing to do with this one.



The problem is that you describe the pipeline as helping the public 
understand "the bigger picture behind the fighting" when it fact it does 
no such thing.


The fighting in Syria is not over pipelines but over whether a family 
dynasty based on oligarchic rule and mafioso violence should continue.


In fact, I posted a link to an article by Gareth Porter that refutes 
such nonsense:


http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/37685-the-war-against-the-assad-regime-is-not-a-pipeline-war

I would have hoped that you would have taken the trouble to comment on 
Porter's article. Perhaps the fact that both of you are Assadists might 
have made such a task more difficult.


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Re: [Marxism] Syria maps

[Andrew Stewart via Marxism]

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Actually Louis that is not Marxism at all, it is geology and a basic diagnosis 
of the geopolitical tensions. Whatever ideas you have about the events in Syria 
and people who you disagree with has absolutely nothing to do with this one. 

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 14:27:52 -0400
From: Louis Proyect <l...@panix.com>
To: marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria maps
Message-ID: <6d0b8a00-385b-b27a-a3b3-b4d1b2ef3...@panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

> On 10/12/16 2:24 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:
> http://washingtonbabylon.com/where-oil-fire-eastern-mediterranean/

Vulgar Marxism.

Best regards,
Andrew Stewart 
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Re: [Marxism] Syria maps

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/12/16 2:24 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:

http://washingtonbabylon.com/where-oil-fire-eastern-mediterranean/



Vulgar Marxism.
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