I know where there is an almost new complete 615 engine that could be
had reasonably.
Is a 615 engine so difficult to find?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 25, 2011, at 8:12 PM, OK Don okd...@gmail.com wrote:
A 616 should fit, per the '75-'76 240D, but I'm not sure of the oil filter
position.
andrew wrote:
This list is the gift that keeps on giving...
Yeah.
At least it doesn't comprise 33% of the GDP.
The line I heard is that the holiday comprises 33% of GDP - totally sick.
The other aspect of 'recovery' is that the eggheads are failing to
tell us is that consumers are not
racor is the normal add on choice. But if you can find an
escort/tempo dissel in a junkyard, they had a filter/separator/heater
that worked pretty well.
I like the stanadyne see-through as in John Deere (US not japanese)
___
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For
Kwanzaa, what about Kwanzaa???
That is a fake made up holiday Even MSN is saying most people are
wise to the scam, and that is amazing.
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Merry Xmas, Happy New Year, and many thanks for an informative and
entertaining list this past year.
Gerry
From: andrew strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com
This list is the gift that keeps on giving...
On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Russ Williams rawil...@eatel.net
wrote:
And A Merry
So many rust-buckets, so little money, sigh.
Fred Moir
Lynn MA
Diesel preferred
Original Message
Subject: 1974 MERCEDES BENZ DIESEL with UNDER 85000 ORIGINAL MILES -
$900 ( Westport Island, ME)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 09:04:40 -0800 (PST)
From: fred.s...@yahoo.com
To:
Ref: local Transparent Gummit and their ministry of propaganda
Maybe it's time to start calling it the ministry of truth (for those who
have read 1984).
-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Dieselhead
Sent: Monday,
Rich,
Were you the one that had the 126 from Houston you were considering selling?
If not, who was it?
Drop me a note off list, please...
Thanks!
Dan
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I've use Hylomar in the past on my boat engine (Diesel, of course). Hylomar
is a gasket dressing that never gets hard and is easy to disassemble later.
Good for stuff you might need to disassemble later (which is the usual case
with old machines). Also, it's relatively un-messy compared to some
1984 and Animal farm
Ref: local Transparent Gummit and their ministry of propaganda
Maybe it's time to start calling it the ministry of truth (for those who
have read 1984).
-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of
There would be an engine for the red one.
OM 616 and 615 were both used in the 115 chassis. The 615 was
dedicated as the 220D from 68 to 73. The 616.916 came in 74-76 and
was known as the 240D in the 115 chassis as well as the more well
known 123 OM616.912 240D
The OM615 and the 616.916
I know of an even better 617 engine itching to go for another run of 250K
miles.
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:28 AM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:
I know where there is an almost new complete 615 engine that could be had
reasonably.
Is a 615 engine so difficult to find?
Sent from my
Fred Moir wrote:
So many rust-buckets, so little money, sigh.
Engine and transmission both rebuilt on a car that years later has a total of
85,000 miles on it? I call BS, unless it's an aluminum engined Vega with an
abused transmission.
Mitch.
___
That would be double un-good!
Fred Moir
Lynn MA
Diesel preferred
On 12/26/2011 12:29 PM, Scott and Gwen Ritchey wrote:
Ref: local Transparent Gummit and their ministry of propaganda
Maybe it's time to start calling it the ministry of truth (for those who
have read 1984).
andrew wrote:
as I said, he either has a virus, or has been hacked.
On 12/25/2011 12:24 PM, Allan Streib wrote:
From headers are easy to forge and spammers often do; doesn't
necessarily mean his account has been compromised.
Allan
Kaleb C. Striplinka...@striplin.net writes:
Glenn you got a virus or have
Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:
as I said, he either has a virus, or has been hacked.
You're saying the headers trace back to his email server?
Mitch.
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who cares, if he has a virus, its probably sending from his email
service, if he was hacked, they got his address book and could be
sending from somewhere else. In either situation, he has a problem
On 12/26/2011 2:19 PM, Mitch Haley wrote:
Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:
as I said, he either has
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On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 14:38:13 -0500 John Ingram joh...@cloud9.net wrote:
At least I got home. The axle on my 83 240D has failed.
Attached is a ZIP file of the pictures I took while doing the job. I've
sent one directly to you, John, so you don't have to wait for the large
email to be approved.
Friends have owned Macs longer than I have, and I haven't heard of any
major problems with their PPC machines. The newer ones seem to have more
problems, but laptop batteries and SuperDrives are kind of like repairing
tie rod ends in my opinion. Its unfortunate that people are having
graphics
Well, the switch is not stuck, carpet was not interfering with it. The car
only has first and second gear, doesn't get to third.
The interesting part is that it used to leave a black smoke cloud large
enough to obscure the car at and above 4000 rpm. Now it's smokeless, and
seems to accelerate
Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:
who cares, if he has a virus, its probably sending from his email
service, if he was hacked, they got his address book and could be
sending from somewhere else. In either situation, he has a problem
Or they could have gotten his address from your online archive, in
I keep deleting, muting, blocking... and this email keeps getting
resurrected.
Gah, I'm going insane!
Walt, who thinks we should napalm the mail server and be done with it...
On Dec 26, 2011 3:48 PM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote:
Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:
who cares, if he has a virus,
Port-a-power to push it back in place? Sledge Hammer? Drive a 140 into the
pillor from the rear?
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.netwrote:
So I finally got around to start repairing the 99 E430 the woman hit in
the parking lot and the main problem is the
I have seen and heard of port a power but never used one. Push it back
into place by bracing it against the other side of the door?
On 12/26/2011 2:52 PM, OK Don wrote:
Port-a-power to push it back in place? Sledge Hammer? Drive a 140 into the
pillor from the rear?
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at
Doesn't HF sell some knock-off variety of a porta power
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 26, 2011, at 4:00 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.net wrote:
I have seen and heard of port a power but never used one. Push it back into
place by bracing it against the other side of the door?
On
Maybe I need this?
http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/auto-body/4-ton-heavy-duty-portable-hydraulic-equipment-kit-44899.html
Or this?
http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/auto-body/17-piece-heavy-duty-slide-hammer-kit-5223.html
On 12/26/2011 3:00 PM, Kaleb C.
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 15:17:11 -0600 Kaleb C. Striplin
ka...@striplin.net wrote:
Maybe I need this?
http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/auto-body/4-ton-heavy-duty-portable-hydraulic-equipment-kit-44899.html
That's good for pushing.
Or this?
Well I figure I might be able to push it back it place bracing it across
to the other door jam. Or drill a hole and pull it back into place.
Leaning toward trying the pushing first.
On 12/26/2011 3:29 PM, Craig wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 15:17:11 -0600 Kaleb C. Striplin
ka...@striplin.net
How about a come along?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 26, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.net wrote:
Well I figure I might be able to push it back it place bracing it across to the
other door jam. Or drill a hole and pull it back into place. Leaning toward
trying the pushing
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I'm also reasonably sure those are not Maine Antique plates as the suggests
they are. They look like Vermont to me...
-Curt
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 14:07:24 -0500
From: Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fwd: 1974 MERCEDES BENZ
I'd cut a 4x4 or so to fit in the rear door jam and push against it so you
don't move it and the front one equally(hopefully).
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.netwrote:
Well I figure I might be able to push it back it place bracing it across
to the other door
Two words:
Alignment rack.
Take it somewhere and have them straighten it. Might cost you a couple hundred
dollars, but at least it will be right. You hose it up and you have effectively
trashed the whole car.
Sometimes it makes sense to leave things to a professional.
Dan
On Dec 26, 2011,
...His position on the need for water separators, as one example.
You think they are almost a necessity, IIRC. Which one would you
recommend?
Rick..
Racor.
RLE
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Won't fit
I know of an even better 617 engine itching to go for another run of 250K
miles.
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:28 AM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:
I know where there is an almost new complete 615 engine that could be had
reasonably.
Is a 615 engine so difficult to find?
The 1976 300D was a 115 with a 617
clay
On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Dieselhead wrote:
Won't fit
I know of an even better 617 engine itching to go for another run of 250K
miles.
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:28 AM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:
I know where there is an almost
With the radiator support moved forward, and a definate pointy nose
(compared to the earlier W115 chassis). Hood and fenders are different as
well.
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 6:05 PM, clay monroe redgh...@comcast.net wrote:
The 1976 300D was a 115 with a 617
clay
On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:57 PM,
It may have 185k, 285k, 385k, 485K, or more, not just 85k.
Fred Moir wrote:
So many rust-buckets, so little money, sigh.
Engine and transmission both rebuilt on a car that years later has a
total of 85,000 miles on it? I call BS, unless it's an aluminum
engined Vega with an abused
Remember what kind for filter you put in the trans?
Well, the switch is not stuck, carpet was not interfering with it. The car
only has first and second gear, doesn't get to third.
The interesting part is that it used to leave a black smoke cloud large
enough to obscure the car at and above
Yeah same thought i had, Only I was going to say frame shop same
thing, just different terms.
Otherwise, won't even be a $500 POS.
Two words:
Alignment rack.
Take it somewhere and have them straighten it. Might cost you a
couple hundred dollars, but at least it will be right. You hose
Yes, it was. It (617.916) is a different subtype than the 617 in the
123 (617.912). Different blocks.
Still won't fit without major modifications.
The 1976 300D was a 115 with a 617
clay
On Dec 26, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Dieselhead wrote:
Won't fit
I know of an even better 617 engine
Why racor you can't see into over a Stanadyne see through separator??
I know Racor is the default for the convert a pickup/Nova crowd.
Never made sense to me. The old guy that ran the injectionshop I
used to go to always said roosamaster (later Stanadyne) Because you
could see it you
Maybe you could use a stud welder to pull it out?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 26, 2011, at 7:10 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:
Yeah same thought i had, Only I was going to say frame shop same thing, just
different terms.
Otherwise, won't even be a $500 POS.
Two words:
Alignment
Speaking of that, i looked at a 72 220D today that had some pretty bad
rust, but a rebuilt engine (from adsit co) a few years ago. It ran very
nicely and had nearly no blowby on startup... something you don't see very
often on these 4 cylinder diesels.
And it was a one family car from new, daily
like this one
http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/auto-body/stud-welder-dent-repair-kit-98357.html
On 12/26/2011 6:32 PM, Dimitri Seretakis wrote:
Maybe you could use a stud welder to pull it out?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 26, 2011, at 7:10 PM, Dieselhead126die...@gmail.com
The 1976 300D was a 115 with a 617
clay
Different chassis subtype too.
W115 240D
74-76
115.117
616.916
W115 300D
75-76
115.114
617.916
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$1500? They are on crack. I bought one just like it except not nearly
that much rust with either a rebuilt or very great original with no
blowby engine for $300.
On 12/26/2011 6:34 PM, Jaime Kopchinski wrote:
Speaking of that, i looked at a 72 220D today that had some pretty bad
rust, but a
The one from Rusty - otherwise, no. Could be time for another change?
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:
Remember what kind for filter you put in the trans?
Well, the switch is not stuck, carpet was not interfering with it. The car
only has first and
IIRC, which I might not, the tranny mounting ring and flywheel are the only
differences between the standard and automatic OM615 engines. I helped my
father replace the OM615 stndard engine with bad blow-by and hard to start
with an engine from an auto 220D, and that's all that I can remember
There is no such thing as a car that cheap around here.
Except for this:
http://newjersey.craigslist.org/cto/2758251980.html
The guys been trying to sell it for a while. I'd guess its pretty horrible
to not sell at that price. If I had a place to hide junk, I'd buy it and
part it out.
Jaime
Yep, I think you're right. With some engines, there was a difference in
the injection pumps, but I think this might be gasoline engines only.
Jaime
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, OK Don okd...@gmail.com wrote:
IIRC, which I might not, the tranny mounting ring and flywheel are the only
I have a racor that has a see-through bowl, I'll have to find it and
grab the number...
Walt
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 7:22 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:
Why racor you can't see into over a Stanadyne see through separator??
I know Racor is the default for the convert a pickup/Nova
Dieselhead wrote:
racor is the normal add on choice.
I have a clear-bowl racor here someplace. Somehow my impression is
that for small automobile diesel engines, racor is a bit overkill? Ya
think it is useful for 240D with clutch?
mao
___
Curt wrote:
And don't forget Festivus.
Isn't Mithra impotent in this mix?
mao
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Whauw! there is someone else on the list from Houston.
With a 126 for sale?
No! Mine is not for sale.
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Dan Penoff lwb...@yahoo.com wrote:
Rich,
Were you the one that had the 126 from Houston you were considering
selling?
If not, who was it?
Drop me a
Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.net writes:
who cares, if he has a virus, its probably sending from his email
service, if he was hacked, they got his address book and could be
sending from somewhere else. In either situation, he has a problem
Someone who has him in their address book could
A body shop will have diagrams of the exact measuring points and
dimensions to be sure everything is back where it should be. They also
have the frame bending equipment to do the job right. This is one where
I'd farm out at least that part of the job. You at least need to get
those diagrams.
Brian Toscano brian.tosc...@gmail.com writes:
Friends have owned Macs longer than I have, and I haven't heard of any
major problems with their PPC machines.
The liquid cooled G5 machines were prone to trouble, from what I've heard.
Allan
--
1983 300D
1979 300SD
Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com writes:
I have a clear-bowl racor here someplace. Somehow my impression is
that for small automobile diesel engines, racor is a bit overkill? Ya
think it is useful for 240D with clutch?
The spin-on filter will trap water.
Allan
--
1983 300D
1979 300SD
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 15:31:37 -0600 Kaleb C. Striplin
ka...@striplin.net wrote:
Well I figure I might be able to push it back it place bracing it
across to the other door jam. Or drill a hole and pull it back into
place. Leaning toward trying the pushing first.
That would be my preference, as
That one must be really horrible for that price... If the trans was the only
thing wrong with it thats a great deal. 116 are such nice driving cars...
I bought my '83 240D in Mount Laurel, NJ. Thats maybe 1/2 hour out of the city
(I forget, its been 8 years (sheesh how time flies)). It was just
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 20:19:51 -0500 Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu
wrote:
A body shop will have diagrams of the exact measuring points and
dimensions to be sure everything is back where it should be. They also
have the frame bending equipment to do the job right. This is one where
I'd
Yeah, what exactly is the issue here?
We've had mercedes diesels in the family since the early 80s and never had
water/fuel related issues, and always used factory filtration.
Is fuel quality that bad in some parts of the country?
Jaime
On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 6:21 PM, relng...@aol.com wrote:
andrew wrote:
There's a whole lot of vetting going on right now for those who would
replace him, and it isn't a pretty picture.
And that is exactly what will give him clear sailing into being re-elected.
He can sit back, save the $1bn campaign fund, speak nothing and be re-elected.
That is my
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 20:35:47 -0500 Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com
wrote:
Yeah, what exactly is the issue here?
We've had mercedes diesels in the family since the early 80s and never
had water/fuel related issues, and always used factory filtration.
Is fuel quality that bad in some
I agree with Jaime.
This is another, If the engineers at MB thought it was warranted, they would
have fitted one to the cars.
Dan
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 26, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com wrote:
Yeah, what exactly is the issue here?
We've had mercedes diesels
Q sells at least 2. For a 124, you need to ask for the Mann. Those
come in a yellow box, and you need to order the gasket separately.
If you got the kit that was shrink wrapped to the card with gasket
and filter, that could be your problem.
There is something different about the 124
The liquid cooled PPC G5 machines were the last of their kind, thank goodness,
and the liquid cooling was an approach to try and get the max out of these
processors without changing the form factor of the machine, I believe.
And yes, they were troublesome.
As someone mentioned earlier in the
If you get a load of bad fuel, it can pay for itself quickly. If
your fuel is always good, you don't need it. How's that for a
political answer?
I ran the roosaMaster Filter on my 200D. I have not added one to
later diesels. At the time, the Master Filter took out smaller
particles than
A load of bad fuel is rare. I have a bad load of fuel maybe once in
10 years. One was a major truckstop. one was an elevator pump your
own, which is generally safe. Adding an additional filter is
perhaps overkill, but a good water separator can save you a lot of
hassle. Bad fuel comes in
Sort of like the Mercedes saying, if doesn't leak, it will :-)
My buddy has a G5 and a 30 and they're both chugging along fine.
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Dan Penoff lwb...@yahoo.com wrote:
The liquid cooled PPC G5 machines were the last of their kind, thank
goodness, and the liquid
A restricted fuel filter can also cause shifting problems, but you'd
probably notice having to push down farther on the accelerator more than
before as well.
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:
Q sells at least 2. For a 124, you need to ask for the Mann.
I agree with Jaime.
This is another, If the engineers at MB thought it was warranted,
they would have fitted one to the cars.
Dan
One other thought about this: Fuel in Germany is always good.
Electricity in Germany is always stable at 50 HZ and 240 or whatever
the voltage is. This is
Ja, but in that case it will shift into 3 and 4. It winds out
further before it shifts because the cable position is wrong for
normal. It will shift unexpectedly from 4 to 3. Often won't get
into 4th unless you back off the throttle.
A restricted fuel filter can also cause shifting
Why racor you can't see into over a Stanadyne see through separator??
I know Racor is the default for the convert a pickup/Nova crowd.
Never made sense to me...
Another insulting comment from a guy who doesn't know nearly as much as
he hopes we think he does.
My Racor unit had a
yo fool! just an honest question. I thought for a while you had
reformed, but your true condescending self shines through.
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In the 50s, I'd agree with you. But by the 60s, the amount of testing that
was occurring outside of germany was already significant. The cars that
most of us drive, even W114/5 cars, were designed for lots of markets, and
tested in them. And US market cars were adapted as necessary (by MBNA, or
And how! Its not if one will leak its when.
The early single processor G5s were also garbage. AFAIK the others were pretty
good.
-Curt
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 20:21:31 -0500
From: Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: MacPro
The first long drive I took with my '83 240D (the ride home actually) took me
on the Taconic Parkway south of Albany, NY. I stopped at a little gas station
in the middle of the night (I was MASSIVELY lost) and got a gallon of water
with my fill-up. The engine got noisier and lost power. Of
Guys,
I checked the brake lights and they're working fine, so I guess the next thing
to check is the speed sensor on the back of the instrument cluster. Can
someone inform me as to how to check this? TIA.
G. M. Brown
Brevard, NC
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 20:36:44 -0600 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:
In the RTW, the fuel is not always good.
RTW?
Craig
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Craig diese...@pisquared.net writes:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 20:36:44 -0600 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:
In the RTW, the fuel is not always good.
RTW?
Rest of the world, I'm guessing.
Though MB was/is quite aware that they sell cars worldwide, not just in
Germany and not just in
Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com writes:
Q sells at least 2. For a 124, you need to ask for the Mann. Those
come in a yellow box, and you need to order the gasket separately. If
you got the kit that was shrink wrapped to the card with gasket and
filter, that could be your problem.
...yo fool! just an honest question. I thought for a while you had
reformed, but your true condescending self shines through...
Why racor you can't see into over a Stanadyne see through separator???
I know Racor is the default for the convert a pickup/Nova crowd. Never made
sense to
'Got some bad (water) fuel from Texaco leaving Charlotte, NC, early on a
10-degree Sunday morning in my 80 240D about 1985. About 10 miles later, I
couldn't get over 40 mph on I-85N; by coupla hours later, I was occasionally
down to 20 mph on the shoulder of I-40E; after 20 minutes or so at
In the 50s, I'd agree with you. But by the 60s, the amount of testing that
was occurring outside of germany was already significant. The cars that
most of us drive, even W114/5 cars, were designed for lots of markets, and
tested in them. And US market cars were adapted as necessary (by MBNA,
RTW= rest of the world.In this usage, outside Germany
Usually it means outside the US, where you have lots of choices of
diesel vehicles, and choices of MBs and MB options (or lack thereof)
that MBUSA says we can't have. Most of my choices would be delete
On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 20:36:44
Still no logical reason for a racor over the stanadyne. In most of
the country, you are never too far from a Napa, a FLAPS, a John Deere
Dealer, or a farm with a spare Stanadyne filter if you need one.
Conversely in high population regions, this may not be true. But for
the majority of miles
Yep, I have used the elring kits on everything else, and will
continue to do so.
Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com writes:
Q sells at least 2. For a 124, you need to ask for the Mann. Those
come in a yellow box, and you need to order the gasket separately. If
you got the kit that was
http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/cto/2700436427.html
Probably a money pit but I always stop and think when I see ads like
this
--
1983 300D
1979 300SD
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On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 01:05:20 -0500 Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu
wrote:
http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/cto/2700436427.html
Probably a money pit but I always stop and think when I see ads like
this
Yeah, something about the look of a Ponton
Craig
Come on kids, you played so nice before Christmas and now it's back to
bitching. Spose you reckon Santa has gone on holidays and is not writing
up his naughty list.
Hendrik
who is always, well mostly, well sometimes nice
Dieselhead wrote:
yo fool! just an honest question. I thought for a
Yes we are in the driest state on the driest continent, so water is an
issue, during the last big dry, the state gobberment decided to build a
desalination plant, which, surprise suprise, went way over budget and
way behind time. Problem is we rely on one river for our water and the
states
I am pretty sure that you are supposed to drain the fuel tank every now
and then to get rid of any water sitting in the bottom of the tank.
Hendrik
who has water traps but they never have any water in them
Dan Penoff wrote:
I agree with Jaime.
This is another, If the engineers at MB thought
Yes. I have the original Magna something that HF knocked off. It has worked
nicely for me but when you have a high crowed crease or ridge it might have
some difficulty.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 26, 2011, at 7:38 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.net wrote:
like this one
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