Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

HERE, THE "CITY" tore up the parking, installed wavy tubing "bike racks" 
and "planters" where we used to be able to park once i n a while, when a 
space opened up, right across from the big state indoctrination factory 
(university).   Needless to say, nobody uses the "bke racks" and the 
"planters" are expensive to maintain.  Whereas, the parking meters were 
always in usegenerating revinoo!


G Mann via Mercedes wrote:

I'm seeing an excellent example of the urban socialization in action here
with bicycles. The city spent multiple Billion$ of federal money
constructing a light rail system, which destroyed established businesses
along it's entire route, because the rail line down the middle of the
street blocks access to "the other side of the street" businesses. Then, to
encourage users of the "light rail" system to ride and actually get to
their business or work, bicycle stands were placed with rent bikes unlocked
and rented by smart phone. The bikes are yellow or green. After just a few
months, the homeless have found a way to unlock the "smart phone locked
bikes" and steal and strip them, or use them at will. Yellow and Green
bikes are now found in alleys being used as free transportation by the
homeless and addicted. The bike company is part of "public transport" and
now complaining about the upkeep cost and lack of traffic.
The "light rail" company has, after 3 years of operation, failed to make a
profit, and is unable to pay it's electric bill to run the trains. During
the 3 years, trains have hit, on average, one car per month, injuring many
occupants.




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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Oh I came across this. More nuanced than most stuff I have seen.

Homepage 
 
[image: Karl W]
[image: Go to the profile of Brinda A. Thomas, Ph.D.]

Brinda A. Thomas, Ph.D.

Data scientist and policy advocate
May 15
A Closer Inspection of Tesla’s Autopilot Safety Statistics
Source: Tesla, Inc.

The automotive industry is at the beginning of a grand experiment. If
completely successful, humanity could be ushered into a new economy
where
driving is a hobby, only for sunny days along clear roads with a view. The
struggles and tedium of the daily commute could be handled by autonomous
vehicles, traffic accidents could fall to nil, passengers could focus on
working and relaxing in their mobile offices, and the elderly, disabled,
and blind could have considerable mobility and autonomy. If a complete
failure, automobile companies would have invested billions of dollars in
computer vision, sensors, and automated driving systems only to have no
effect on or actually increase the number of traffic accidents and
fatalities by introducing new risks. This would cause a public backlash,
and requiring regulators to impose a slow, costly review process that slows
the pace of innovation so that after an initial roll-out to a few hundred
thousand vehicles, further roll-outs are halted. Then, autonomous vehicle
technology may follow the same path as the U.S. nuclear power industry,
which has stopped building new power plants since the Three Mile Island
accident in 1979. Which scenario or whether something in between unfolds
depends on good design, as well as careful understanding and communication
of the safety of autonomous driving technology and the path from partially
autonomous to fully autonomous vehicles. And understanding the safety of
autonomous vehicles (AV) is a very thorny statistics problem.

Recent fatal and injury-producing crashes involving vehicles with Tesla’s
Autopilot and Uber’s self-driving pilot have led to significant
disagreement among experts, reporters, automakers, and regulators about
safety statistics for partial autonomy technologies[1]. Tesla, in
particular, has made recent headlines after two crashes and 1 fatality with
its Autopilot-equipped partial autonomy vehicles in the past few months.
Tesla claims that its technology is 3.7x safer
 than the
existing U.S. vehicle fleet, stating a fatality rate of 1 death per 86
million miles for conventional vehicles versus 1 death per 320 million
miles for Autopilot-equipped vehicles, but many experts question the
methodology and data behind these statistics. In this article, I’ll review
the data, methods, and the three main criticisms of Tesla’s methodology for
conventional vehicle fatality rates, provide my best estimates, and make
recommendations for regulators and automakers on the safety of autonomous
vehicles. I don’t have access to data to verify the fatality rate for Tesla
Autopilot-equipped vehicles but the company has promised to release public
Autopilot safety data in future quarters.

*1.* *What’s* *an Autopilot mile?*

One informal complaint I’ve heard among analysts is the question of which
miles should be included as an ‘Autopilot mile’ in Tesla’s statistic of 1
fatality per 320 million miles. Some analysts argue that one should only
compare miles driven in a vehicle with Autopilot engaged to manually-driven
vehicle-miles to obtain a fatality rate. Instead, Tesla’s methodology
includes all miles driven with an Autopilot-enabled vehicle, whether or not
the functionality was engaged.

I agree with Tesla’s methodology on Autopilot mileage because the road
conditions under which a partial autonomy system is rated for operation
(highways, clear lane markings, etc) are systematically different from
manually-driven miles. If one only used Autopilot-enabled miles in the
fatality rate calculation, a comparable baseline of miles for a manual
vehicle driven under similar road conditions would be difficult to obtain
and there are already considerable gaps in the vehicle mileage data needed
to compute good partial autonomy safety statistics (more below).

Because the characteristics of manually-driven miles in Autopilot-enabled
vehicles are very different than the miles driven in a manually-driven
vehicle — more curves, poor lane markings, rain or poor-visibility weather,
etc. — it could be possible that crashes are *more*likely to occur when an
Autopilot-enabled vehicle turned over operation to the driver, because road
conditions were worse. If that hypothesis were true, these types of crashes
should be included as an Autopilot crash, as it pertains to the road
coverage of Autopilot and the hand-off 

Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Clay,
The example city in my post is Phoenix, AZ, however, it has become like
every other city of size, a bastion of ignorant leadership and poor civic
planning. The examples you give for Seattle are repeated in every city, by
every "public works department" across the nation.

If you go to any federal park, you will see signs that say, "do not feed
the wild animals".. when you ask "Why not?" the rangers will tell you it
makes the animals dependent on handouts and they won't work for their food.
Cities apparently need to put up some of those signs adapted for humans
and social welfare programs...

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 10:07 PM, clay monroe via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Good GOD, you do not live in Seattle, do you?  This sounds just like the
> nightmare scenario I meet every day.  The things the hobos do on those
> bikes makes me cringe when i see the tourist smiling away while pedaling
> along.  
>
> We have light rail, street cars, buses, and more lame excuses for transit
> that get just enough ridership to keep the idiot politicians smiling.  The
> streets are clogged with Uber and Lyft goons who recklessly swerve around
> in traffic causing near or real accidents.  The drivers are not native
> born, I wonder how they even understood the driver test questions.
>
> No need to mention the LEOs who have no desire to Serve or Protect.  When
> I approach them with what should be solidly in their wheelhouse, they
> respond with some version of “not my job”.  Parking enforcement refuses to
> actually enforce.  They park in a manner that obstructs fire plugs, watch
> pedestrians nearly become hood ornaments instead of directing traffic (for
> which they are getting overtime pay), they do “undercover” surveillance in
> marked cars instead of interceding in the hobos stealing electronics,
> dealing drugs and selling underage hookers.
>
> I was watching this whole mess, and came to the conclusion that the
> simplest way to invade this nation would be to come in under cover of being
> homeless.  Set up tents upon sidewalks and streets, parks and freeway
> interchanges, keep the weapons in RVs parked around town.  Gather enough
> soldiers in this manner, which the civilian population and LEOs will
> ignore, then, with a few thousand invisible partisans, you take over the
> city and county.
>
>
> clay
>
> 1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
> 1986 SDL - Polei
> 1982 300 SD - Allen
>
> retired models-
> 2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored crap
> 1976 300D - Blei Vanst - it looks silvery
> 1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran
> 1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV
> POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 1, 2018, at 9:33 AM, G Mann via Mercedes 
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm seeing an excellent example of the urban socialization in action here
> > with bicycles. The city spent multiple Billion$ of federal money
> > constructing a light rail system, which destroyed established businesses
> > along it's entire route, because the rail line down the middle of the
> > street blocks access to "the other side of the street" businesses. Then,
> to
> > encourage users of the "light rail" system to ride and actually get to
> > their business or work, bicycle stands were placed with rent bikes
> unlocked
> > and rented by smart phone. The bikes are yellow or green. After just a
> few
> > months, the homeless have found a way to unlock the "smart phone locked
> > bikes" and steal and strip them, or use them at will. Yellow and Green
> > bikes are now found in alleys being used as free transportation by the
> > homeless and addicted. The bike company is part of "public transport" and
> > now complaining about the upkeep cost and lack of traffic.
> > The "light rail" company has, after 3 years of operation, failed to make
> a
> > profit, and is unable to pay it's electric bill to run the trains. During
> > the 3 years, trains have hit, on average, one car per month, injuring
> many
> > occupants.
> > Someone made the decision to spend Billions for a system that, to date,
> is
> > a business failure.
> > In my considered opinion, self driving cars fall into that same category.
> > America is a country of individual freedom. In action, the "light rail"
> and
> > "self driving cars" both push against that base mind set. Ultimately, the
> > law of UN-intended consequences will bite them both.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 9:01 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Nor maintain flight attitude.
> >>
> >> Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
> >>
> >>>  I'm wondering why there seems to be no focus on self driving trains.
> >>> Seems like thats low hanging fruit, you don't have to steer...
> >>> -Curt
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>
> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> 

Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[clay monroe via Mercedes]

I just read that we have around 3.8% unemployment now.  Best labor market in 18 
years!  It seems almost anybody looking for employment will find something, 
according to the MSM.  I wonder why the 5k hobos occupying SEA are not on the 
labor rolls if there are jobs going begging.

Automating transport and warehouse jobs will have a massive impact on labor.  
There are so many jobs a robot can do much swifter and possibly more reliably 
than a human.  No need for healthcare or pensions either.  What do we do with 
all the redundant people?  Soylent Green?  Can’t turn them into fuel, because 
all the cars are electric.  

clay 

1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
1986 SDL - Polei
1982 300 SD - Allen

retired models-
2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored crap
1976 300D - Blei Vanst - it looks silvery
1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers







> On Jun 1, 2018, at 7:22 PM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Max,
> 
> For now it doesnt seem like anyone is mandating the driverless stuff or
> even collision avoidance. If people feel squeamish enough, the driverless
> taxi/truck will flop despite the labor cost savings. It will be interesting
> to see if it can survive, but I will bet that if it is good enough then
> people will forget their qualms fairly quickly.
> 
> Freedom applies just as equally to people who select autonomous cars as it
> does to people who do not. Reasonable people will differ on this. Several
> years back I read an interview where a google testing engineer said that
> his wife got nervous whenever he would take over the wheel from the
> computer, because she felt safer with the computer.
> 
> For me, the labor implications are probably the biggest issue. What are
> several million taxi drivers, truck drivers, delivery people etc supposed
> to do for work when they are suddenly rendered obsolete by machines? It is
> potentially socially destabilizing technology.
> 
> Anyway how many lives would this technology have to save per year per
> 100,000 people for the benefit to outweigh the downside of reduced
> individual liberty? I would like to be free to use the freeway without
> fearing immature, reckless and distracted drivers killing me. There are
> probably far more of them here than in NC, admittedly, but that is why we
> are a federation of states.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018, 5:21 AM Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> Karl,
>> 
>> I think this comes down to individual liberty (and the responsibility that
>> goes with it) vs. the serfdom of handing over control to the "other".
>> 
>> Just like I don't want the government or the health insco deciding on my
>> healthcare options, I don't want to pay extra for people I've never met and
>> never will meet to completely control my car and my family when riding in
>> that car.  I'd much rather take the risk and control my own life, than hand
>> over control.
>> 
>> A car is an immensely liberating invention.  A car is hugely important for
>> individual financial success.  In my case a dependable car is vitally
>> necessary for hurricane evacuation.
>> 
>> Yes, the bar is EXTREMELY high for an autonomous car to take over the job
>> that I can do just fine, thank you.
>> 
>> -
>> Max
>> Charleston SC
>> 
>> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 1:41 AM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> The bar is set fairly low in terms of human controlled car accident rates
>>> and humans coping with unexpected failures.
>>> 
>>> There seems to be a greater willingness to accept human errors than
>> machine
>>> errors. Not sure this is entirely rational.
>>> 
>>> Humans are really bad drivers. If a machine can do it reliably better
>> then
>>> bring it on. When I am old, I dont think I will be saying I wish I spent
>>> more time driving. The best car is the one you never have to drive, so
>> you
>>> can spend your limited time on earth doing more interesting stuff.
>>> 
>>> Think of all the consciousness wasted by people sitting in stop and go
>>> traffic, concentrating on the bumper ahead. And the negative effects on
>>> stress and mood. What a drain on humanity.
>>> 
>>> Why is a human running a red light and t boning me so much better than a
>>> machine doing it? Or a machine wrecking my car instead of me somehow
>> worse?
>>> What matters is the overall performance across the population vs current
>>> technology.
>>> 
>>> Ultimately the costs and benefits of these things will speak for
>>> themselves. I'm pretty sure the machines are already better. Waymo has
>>> driven millions of miles on public roads now. Fiat just sold them another
>>> 20k minivans to use as driverless taxis. You dont buy 20,000 minivans
>>> unless you are pretty sure about what you are going to do with them.
>>> 


___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To 

Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[clay monroe via Mercedes]

Good GOD, you do not live in Seattle, do you?  This sounds just like the 
nightmare scenario I meet every day.  The things the hobos do on those bikes 
makes me cringe when i see the tourist smiling away while pedaling along.  


We have light rail, street cars, buses, and more lame excuses for transit that 
get just enough ridership to keep the idiot politicians smiling.  The streets 
are clogged with Uber and Lyft goons who recklessly swerve around in traffic 
causing near or real accidents.  The drivers are not native born, I wonder how 
they even understood the driver test questions.  

No need to mention the LEOs who have no desire to Serve or Protect.  When I 
approach them with what should be solidly in their wheelhouse, they respond 
with some version of “not my job”.  Parking enforcement refuses to actually 
enforce.  They park in a manner that obstructs fire plugs, watch pedestrians 
nearly become hood ornaments instead of directing traffic (for which they are 
getting overtime pay), they do “undercover” surveillance in marked cars instead 
of interceding in the hobos stealing electronics, dealing drugs and selling 
underage hookers.

I was watching this whole mess, and came to the conclusion that the simplest 
way to invade this nation would be to come in under cover of being homeless.  
Set up tents upon sidewalks and streets, parks and freeway interchanges, keep 
the weapons in RVs parked around town.  Gather enough soldiers in this manner, 
which the civilian population and LEOs will ignore, then, with a few thousand 
invisible partisans, you take over the city and county.


clay 

1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
1986 SDL - Polei
1982 300 SD - Allen

retired models-
2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored crap
1976 300D - Blei Vanst - it looks silvery
1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers







> On Jun 1, 2018, at 9:33 AM, G Mann via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> I'm seeing an excellent example of the urban socialization in action here
> with bicycles. The city spent multiple Billion$ of federal money
> constructing a light rail system, which destroyed established businesses
> along it's entire route, because the rail line down the middle of the
> street blocks access to "the other side of the street" businesses. Then, to
> encourage users of the "light rail" system to ride and actually get to
> their business or work, bicycle stands were placed with rent bikes unlocked
> and rented by smart phone. The bikes are yellow or green. After just a few
> months, the homeless have found a way to unlock the "smart phone locked
> bikes" and steal and strip them, or use them at will. Yellow and Green
> bikes are now found in alleys being used as free transportation by the
> homeless and addicted. The bike company is part of "public transport" and
> now complaining about the upkeep cost and lack of traffic.
> The "light rail" company has, after 3 years of operation, failed to make a
> profit, and is unable to pay it's electric bill to run the trains. During
> the 3 years, trains have hit, on average, one car per month, injuring many
> occupants.
> Someone made the decision to spend Billions for a system that, to date, is
> a business failure.
> In my considered opinion, self driving cars fall into that same category.
> America is a country of individual freedom. In action, the "light rail" and
> "self driving cars" both push against that base mind set. Ultimately, the
> law of UN-intended consequences will bite them both.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 9:01 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> Nor maintain flight attitude.
>> 
>> Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
>> 
>>>  I'm wondering why there seems to be no focus on self driving trains.
>>> Seems like thats low hanging fruit, you don't have to steer...
>>> -Curt
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
>> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Cant really disagree with any of that Curt.

I generally time flights into and out of LAX to avoid traffic. The billion
dollar hov lane on the 405 was a complete waste of money. What a
boondoggle.

There is a new tax to support mass transit but the housing development
always seems to happen before the transport infrastructure to support it is
in place. So gridlock will continue for a decade or more I imagine.

Anyway you are always welcome to stop by for a beer as we are pretty close
to that route if you take the 405.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018, 7:33 AM Curt Raymond  wrote:

> On the one hand I can't disagree with you on the safety front, our species
> is singularly bad at accurately judging risk, look at all the people afraid
> to fly but willing to drive for instance.
>
> On the other hand I like driving and some joy would be lost should I not
> be able to. Also how is a self-driving car going to deal with my cabin 3/4
> mile from the road?
>
> As for heavy traffic, our poorly designed cities and lack of public
> transport are largely to blame. When I go to LA I end up driving from LAX
> to Burbank which takes too long in the best of times. I'd love to be able
> to take the train but its so terribly inconvenient its actually easier to
> drive. Someday when the rail extension to the airport is done it might be
> feasible, I look at it each time I'm there and it seems like progress is
> being made but only when measured against the fact that I've been making
> this trip for a decade, the month to month progress seems to be essentially
> zero...
>
> -Curt
>
> On Friday, June 1, 2018, 1:42:04 AM EDT, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>
> The bar is set fairly low in terms of human controlled car accident rates
> and humans coping with unexpected failures.
>
> There seems to be a greater willingness to accept human errors than machine
> errors. Not sure this is entirely rational.
>
> Humans are really bad drivers. If a machine can do it reliably better then
> bring it on. When I am old, I dont think I will be saying I wish I spent
> more time driving. The best car is the one you never have to drive, so you
> can spend your limited time on earth doing more interesting stuff.
>
> Think of all the consciousness wasted by people sitting in stop and go
> traffic, concentrating on the bumper ahead. And the negative effects on
> stress and mood. What a drain on humanity.
>
> Why is a human running a red light and t boning me so much better than a
> machine doing it? Or a machine wrecking my car instead of me somehow worse?
> What matters is the overall performance across the population vs current
> technology.
>
> Ultimately the costs and benefits of these things will speak for
> themselves. I'm pretty sure the machines are already better. Waymo has
> driven millions of miles on public roads now. Fiat just sold them another
> 20k minivans to use as driverless taxis. You dont buy 20,000 minivans
> unless you are pretty sure about what you are going to do with them.
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Hi Max,

For now it doesnt seem like anyone is mandating the driverless stuff or
even collision avoidance. If people feel squeamish enough, the driverless
taxi/truck will flop despite the labor cost savings. It will be interesting
to see if it can survive, but I will bet that if it is good enough then
people will forget their qualms fairly quickly.

Freedom applies just as equally to people who select autonomous cars as it
does to people who do not. Reasonable people will differ on this. Several
years back I read an interview where a google testing engineer said that
his wife got nervous whenever he would take over the wheel from the
computer, because she felt safer with the computer.

For me, the labor implications are probably the biggest issue. What are
several million taxi drivers, truck drivers, delivery people etc supposed
to do for work when they are suddenly rendered obsolete by machines? It is
potentially socially destabilizing technology.

Anyway how many lives would this technology have to save per year per
100,000 people for the benefit to outweigh the downside of reduced
individual liberty? I would like to be free to use the freeway without
fearing immature, reckless and distracted drivers killing me. There are
probably far more of them here than in NC, admittedly, but that is why we
are a federation of states.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018, 5:21 AM Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Karl,
>
> I think this comes down to individual liberty (and the responsibility that
> goes with it) vs. the serfdom of handing over control to the "other".
>
> Just like I don't want the government or the health insco deciding on my
> healthcare options, I don't want to pay extra for people I've never met and
> never will meet to completely control my car and my family when riding in
> that car.  I'd much rather take the risk and control my own life, than hand
> over control.
>
> A car is an immensely liberating invention.  A car is hugely important for
> individual financial success.  In my case a dependable car is vitally
> necessary for hurricane evacuation.
>
> Yes, the bar is EXTREMELY high for an autonomous car to take over the job
> that I can do just fine, thank you.
>
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
>
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 1:41 AM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > The bar is set fairly low in terms of human controlled car accident rates
> > and humans coping with unexpected failures.
> >
> > There seems to be a greater willingness to accept human errors than
> machine
> > errors. Not sure this is entirely rational.
> >
> > Humans are really bad drivers. If a machine can do it reliably better
> then
> > bring it on. When I am old, I dont think I will be saying I wish I spent
> > more time driving. The best car is the one you never have to drive, so
> you
> > can spend your limited time on earth doing more interesting stuff.
> >
> > Think of all the consciousness wasted by people sitting in stop and go
> > traffic, concentrating on the bumper ahead. And the negative effects on
> > stress and mood. What a drain on humanity.
> >
> > Why is a human running a red light and t boning me so much better than a
> > machine doing it? Or a machine wrecking my car instead of me somehow
> worse?
> > What matters is the overall performance across the population vs current
> > technology.
> >
> > Ultimately the costs and benefits of these things will speak for
> > themselves. I'm pretty sure the machines are already better. Waymo has
> > driven millions of miles on public roads now. Fiat just sold them another
> > 20k minivans to use as driverless taxis. You dont buy 20,000 minivans
> > unless you are pretty sure about what you are going to do with them.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

But he's a lot richer than you or I X infinity.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:57 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I called STINK on Musk years ago.   He is all BS.
>
> Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>
>> Tesla in Autopilot mode hits parked police car in Calif.Published:
>> Wednesday, May 30, 2018
>>
>> A Tesla Inc. electric vehicle in Autopilot mode yesterday crashed into a
>> parked police car in Laguna Beach, Calif., authorities said.
>>
>>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

But don't you live far far away in the desert?

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 12:33 PM, G Mann via Mercedes 
wrote:

> I'm seeing an excellent example of the urban socialization in action here
> with bicycles. The city spent multiple Billion$ of federal money
> constructing a light rail system, which destroyed established businesses
> along it's entire route, because the rail line down the middle of the
> street blocks access to "the other side of the street" businesses. Then, to
> encourage users of the "light rail" system to ride and actually get to
> their business or work, bicycle stands were placed with rent bikes unlocked
> and rented by smart phone. The bikes are yellow or green. After just a few
> months, the homeless have found a way to unlock the "smart phone locked
> bikes" and steal and strip them, or use them at will. Yellow and Green
> bikes are now found in alleys being used as free transportation by the
> homeless and addicted. The bike company is part of "public transport" and
> now complaining about the upkeep cost and lack of traffic.
> The "light rail" company has, after 3 years of operation, failed to make a
> profit, and is unable to pay it's electric bill to run the trains. During
> the 3 years, trains have hit, on average, one car per month, injuring many
> occupants.
> Someone made the decision to spend Billions for a system that, to date, is
> a business failure.
> In my considered opinion, self driving cars fall into that same category.
> America is a country of individual freedom. In action, the "light rail" and
> "self driving cars" both push against that base mind set. Ultimately, the
> law of UN-intended consequences will bite them both.
>
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 9:01 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Nor maintain flight attitude.
> >
> > Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
> >
> >>   I'm wondering why there seems to be no focus on self driving trains.
> >> Seems like thats low hanging fruit, you don't have to steer...
> >> -Curt
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[G Mann via Mercedes]

I'm seeing an excellent example of the urban socialization in action here
with bicycles. The city spent multiple Billion$ of federal money
constructing a light rail system, which destroyed established businesses
along it's entire route, because the rail line down the middle of the
street blocks access to "the other side of the street" businesses. Then, to
encourage users of the "light rail" system to ride and actually get to
their business or work, bicycle stands were placed with rent bikes unlocked
and rented by smart phone. The bikes are yellow or green. After just a few
months, the homeless have found a way to unlock the "smart phone locked
bikes" and steal and strip them, or use them at will. Yellow and Green
bikes are now found in alleys being used as free transportation by the
homeless and addicted. The bike company is part of "public transport" and
now complaining about the upkeep cost and lack of traffic.
The "light rail" company has, after 3 years of operation, failed to make a
profit, and is unable to pay it's electric bill to run the trains. During
the 3 years, trains have hit, on average, one car per month, injuring many
occupants.
Someone made the decision to spend Billions for a system that, to date, is
a business failure.
In my considered opinion, self driving cars fall into that same category.
America is a country of individual freedom. In action, the "light rail" and
"self driving cars" both push against that base mind set. Ultimately, the
law of UN-intended consequences will bite them both.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 9:01 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Nor maintain flight attitude.
>
> Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
>
>>   I'm wondering why there seems to be no focus on self driving trains.
>> Seems like thats low hanging fruit, you don't have to steer...
>> -Curt
>>
>
>
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>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Nor maintain flight attitude.

Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

  I'm wondering why there seems to be no focus on self driving trains. Seems 
like thats low hanging fruit, you don't have to steer...
-Curt



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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I called STINK on Musk years ago.   He is all BS.

Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

Tesla in Autopilot mode hits parked police car in Calif.Published:
Wednesday, May 30, 2018

A Tesla Inc. electric vehicle in Autopilot mode yesterday crashed into a
parked police car in Laguna Beach, Calif., authorities said.




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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 On the one hand I can't disagree with you on the safety front, our species is 
singularly bad at accurately judging risk, look at all the people afraid to fly 
but willing to drive for instance.
On the other hand I like driving and some joy would be lost should I not be 
able to. Also how is a self-driving car going to deal with my cabin 3/4 mile 
from the road?
As for heavy traffic, our poorly designed cities and lack of public transport 
are largely to blame. When I go to LA I end up driving from LAX to Burbank 
which takes too long in the best of times. I'd love to be able to take the 
train but its so terribly inconvenient its actually easier to drive. Someday 
when the rail extension to the airport is done it might be feasible, I look at 
it each time I'm there and it seems like progress is being made but only when 
measured against the fact that I've been making this trip for a decade, the 
month to month progress seems to be essentially zero...
-Curt

On Friday, June 1, 2018, 1:42:04 AM EDT, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 The bar is set fairly low in terms of human controlled car accident rates
and humans coping with unexpected failures.

There seems to be a greater willingness to accept human errors than machine
errors. Not sure this is entirely rational.

Humans are really bad drivers. If a machine can do it reliably better then
bring it on. When I am old, I dont think I will be saying I wish I spent
more time driving. The best car is the one you never have to drive, so you
can spend your limited time on earth doing more interesting stuff.

Think of all the consciousness wasted by people sitting in stop and go
traffic, concentrating on the bumper ahead. And the negative effects on
stress and mood. What a drain on humanity.

Why is a human running a red light and t boning me so much better than a
machine doing it? Or a machine wrecking my car instead of me somehow worse?
What matters is the overall performance across the population vs current
technology.

Ultimately the costs and benefits of these things will speak for
themselves. I'm pretty sure the machines are already better. Waymo has
driven millions of miles on public roads now. Fiat just sold them another
20k minivans to use as driverless taxis. You dont buy 20,000 minivans
unless you are pretty sure about what you are going to do with them.

  
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Karl,

I think this comes down to individual liberty (and the responsibility that
goes with it) vs. the serfdom of handing over control to the "other".

Just like I don't want the government or the health insco deciding on my
healthcare options, I don't want to pay extra for people I've never met and
never will meet to completely control my car and my family when riding in
that car.  I'd much rather take the risk and control my own life, than hand
over control.

A car is an immensely liberating invention.  A car is hugely important for
individual financial success.  In my case a dependable car is vitally
necessary for hurricane evacuation.

Yes, the bar is EXTREMELY high for an autonomous car to take over the job
that I can do just fine, thank you.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 1:41 AM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> The bar is set fairly low in terms of human controlled car accident rates
> and humans coping with unexpected failures.
>
> There seems to be a greater willingness to accept human errors than machine
> errors. Not sure this is entirely rational.
>
> Humans are really bad drivers. If a machine can do it reliably better then
> bring it on. When I am old, I dont think I will be saying I wish I spent
> more time driving. The best car is the one you never have to drive, so you
> can spend your limited time on earth doing more interesting stuff.
>
> Think of all the consciousness wasted by people sitting in stop and go
> traffic, concentrating on the bumper ahead. And the negative effects on
> stress and mood. What a drain on humanity.
>
> Why is a human running a red light and t boning me so much better than a
> machine doing it? Or a machine wrecking my car instead of me somehow worse?
> What matters is the overall performance across the population vs current
> technology.
>
> Ultimately the costs and benefits of these things will speak for
> themselves. I'm pretty sure the machines are already better. Waymo has
> driven millions of miles on public roads now. Fiat just sold them another
> 20k minivans to use as driverless taxis. You dont buy 20,000 minivans
> unless you are pretty sure about what you are going to do with them.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

The bar is set fairly low in terms of human controlled car accident rates
and humans coping with unexpected failures.

There seems to be a greater willingness to accept human errors than machine
errors. Not sure this is entirely rational.

Humans are really bad drivers. If a machine can do it reliably better then
bring it on. When I am old, I dont think I will be saying I wish I spent
more time driving. The best car is the one you never have to drive, so you
can spend your limited time on earth doing more interesting stuff.

Think of all the consciousness wasted by people sitting in stop and go
traffic, concentrating on the bumper ahead. And the negative effects on
stress and mood. What a drain on humanity.

Why is a human running a red light and t boning me so much better than a
machine doing it? Or a machine wrecking my car instead of me somehow worse?
What matters is the overall performance across the population vs current
technology.

Ultimately the costs and benefits of these things will speak for
themselves. I'm pretty sure the machines are already better. Waymo has
driven millions of miles on public roads now. Fiat just sold them another
20k minivans to use as driverless taxis. You dont buy 20,000 minivans
unless you are pretty sure about what you are going to do with them.



On Thu, May 31, 2018, 2:27 PM G Mann via Mercedes 
wrote:

> I rise in opposition to that line of thinking.
>
> While code writing may indeed, at some future date, become "without flaw",
> it is presently far from that level of perfection.
>
> Then... to truly succeed at this undertaking, you must also build physical
> components that convert electrical signals to mechanical actions and NEVER
> FAIL, or, work in perfect harmony with second and third backup
> mechanical/electrical components that operate and "backup fail safe", with
> ZERO loss of control while shifting from component #1 to #2, to #3, et al.
>
> The code must recognize the need to shed and shift from failed components,
> without fail.
>
> Then, the ultimate backup system needs to tattoo the occupants with their
> Darwin Award, and electronically instantly file for said Darwin Award, just
> prior to deadly failure.
>
> The entire mindset of autonomous cars depends on the lack of ability of
> humans to firmly be in control of their own actions and be held responsible
> for them.
>
> Which is in total conflict with my personal belief system.
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 1:27 PM, OK Don via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> wrote:
>
> > 
> >
> > > Me thinks that autonomous cars are a fool's errand, and the cost will
> be
> > so
> > > stinkin' high for anything that comes close to human performance that
> > very
> > > few people will be able to afford them.
> > >
> >
> > I don't think bar is too high to be exceeded, at least for most of the
> > drivers I observe . . .
> > Once the code is written, it costs almost nothing to replicate in volume.
> >
> > --
> > OK Don
> >
> > *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many
> of
> > our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain
> >
> > "There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few
> who
> > learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
> > for themselves."
> >
> > WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
> > 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> > 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> > 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[G Mann via Mercedes]

I rise in opposition to that line of thinking.

While code writing may indeed, at some future date, become "without flaw",
it is presently far from that level of perfection.

Then... to truly succeed at this undertaking, you must also build physical
components that convert electrical signals to mechanical actions and NEVER
FAIL, or, work in perfect harmony with second and third backup
mechanical/electrical components that operate and "backup fail safe", with
ZERO loss of control while shifting from component #1 to #2, to #3, et al.

The code must recognize the need to shed and shift from failed components,
without fail.

Then, the ultimate backup system needs to tattoo the occupants with their
Darwin Award, and electronically instantly file for said Darwin Award, just
prior to deadly failure.

The entire mindset of autonomous cars depends on the lack of ability of
humans to firmly be in control of their own actions and be held responsible
for them.

Which is in total conflict with my personal belief system.

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 1:27 PM, OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> 
>
> > Me thinks that autonomous cars are a fool's errand, and the cost will be
> so
> > stinkin' high for anything that comes close to human performance that
> very
> > few people will be able to afford them.
> >
>
> I don't think bar is too high to be exceeded, at least for most of the
> drivers I observe . . .
> Once the code is written, it costs almost nothing to replicate in volume.
>
> --
> OK Don
>
> *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
> our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain
>
> "There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
> learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
> for themselves."
>
> WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[OK Don via Mercedes]

> Me thinks that autonomous cars are a fool's errand, and the cost will be so
> stinkin' high for anything that comes close to human performance that very
> few people will be able to afford them.
>

I don't think bar is too high to be exceeded, at least for most of the
drivers I observe . . .
Once the code is written, it costs almost nothing to replicate in volume.

-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[clay monroe via Mercedes]

I do not trust any “automated” system to function without error.  Things run 
down.  Entropy rules.  Who will remedy situations when things go awry?   Not 
the drivers.  Maybe the fleet owner?  

Coders are no longer artists, but hacks who spew inelegant software that is not 
at all tight or secure.  Dark hats are breaking into banks, movie studios, 
mobile phones, and much more.  How will a car be more secure?  Maybe not by 
having computers onboard?  Go back to mechanical diesels?

clay 

1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
1986 SDL - Polei
1982 300 SD - Allen

retired models-
2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored crap
1976 300D - Blei Vanst - it looks silvery
1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers







> On May 31, 2018, at 9:17 AM, Ed Booher via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> It actually isn't the autonomous software that worries me, they *will*
> perfect that. They *will* get the software to a point that it will *never*
> have a crash, or kill a pedestrian for any reason. *That* is the part that
> worries me.
> 
> I watched a lot of anime in the 90s, I could have sworn it was Ghost in the
> Shell that scared me so bad. However, I haven't been able to re-find the
> scene in question, so it must have been another Japanese animated feature.
> 
> Where in, they had *perfected* autonomous auto driving software, and the
> entire world trusted it because no one drove their own car anymore. Then,
> someone is able to crack the software of a driving car and send it off a
> cliff. What are we going to do when our great-grandchildren inherently
> trust artificial intelligence and think granddad is being stupid for
> keeping the 66 fintail with manual drive in the garage and a virus starts
> killing us because we have given over so much control to our automatons?
> 
> That movie was *terrifying* to me.
> 
> Edd
> 
> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 7:21 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 30/05/2018 4:27 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote:
>> 
>>>Autopilot Does_not_work.
>>> 
>>> I had my yearly physicians appointment today and we were discussing
>>> different things. One thing that came up is a young physician that recently
>>> died in a single car auto accident. He was showing off his new
>>> Infinity with Pro pilot or some such autonomous driving feature to my
>>> doctor. He remarked to my doctor he could probably sleep while it did the
>>> driving.
>>> 
>>> I suspect that sentiment cost him his life.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

That's a good point Rick, how will the AI handle the failure of a component
or system?  A flat tire (even a low-on-pressure tire) can be sensed and
reacted to, but what is that reaction?  What if the tire shop forgets to
tighten up all the lug nuts, and while cruising down the highway they
loosen up and the wheel starts making noise just before it falls off, while
the AI be smart enough to diagnose and properly react?  How about after the
tire leaves the autonomous car, can the AI react properly?

If the muffler falls off (from the Okie Acres version of the autonomous
car) will the AI be smart enough to pull over and tell the passenger to go
retrieve the parts and through them in the trunk?

What about the autonomous car following the car that lost the muffler or
the tire, can they execute an avoidance maneuver without crashing?

Me thinks that autonomous cars are a fool's errand, and the cost will be so
stinkin' high for anything that comes close to human performance that very
few people will be able to afford them.  The vast majority will look at the
cost and decide that a regular old car will be just fine.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 1:31 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I have worked with industrial automation for a little while. Sensors fail,
> input cards fail, output cards fail. I suspect aircraft navigation systems,
> heck all aircraft systems are fairly well inspected on a regular basis. Not
> many of us inspect our cars with such rigor. We are car guys... What does
> that say for the general population?
>
> The one way it *may* work is if autonomous auto ownership is held by the
> government or the manufacturer, and is subject to inspection and regular
> maintenance. Oh, and escort all of the ambulance chasing attorneys to the
> "showers". Present company excepted of course.
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 30/05/2018 10:08 PM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote:

Yes its a union thing. Autonomous trains have been possible for decades now.



And they have cut back so that the engineer is probably the only person 
on the train.


RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

I have worked with industrial automation for a little while. Sensors fail, 
input cards fail, output cards fail. I suspect aircraft navigation systems, 
heck all aircraft systems are fairly well inspected on a regular basis. Not 
many of us inspect our cars with such rigor. We are car guys... What does that 
say for the general population? 

The one way it *may* work is if autonomous auto ownership is held by the 
government or the manufacturer, and is subject to inspection and regular 
maintenance. Oh, and escort all of the ambulance chasing attorneys to the 
"showers". Present company excepted of course. 

Rick


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[OK Don via Mercedes]

I think I've posted this before, but once I answered Microsoft 's customer
satisfaction survey with a rant against buffer overrun defects that they
kept patching like mad then (early 2000's?). I told them that using Windows
was like driving a car that a hacker could remotely access, take control,
and give you a hard left turn while you were driving 70 on the freeway. The
scenario is getting more realistic every day . . .

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Ed Booher via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> It actually isn't the autonomous software that worries me, they *will*
> perfect that. They *will* get the software to a point that it will *never*
> have a crash, or kill a pedestrian for any reason. *That* is the part that
> worries me.
>
> I watched a lot of anime in the 90s, I could have sworn it was Ghost in the
> Shell that scared me so bad. However, I haven't been able to re-find the
> scene in question, so it must have been another Japanese animated feature.
>
> Where in, they had *perfected* autonomous auto driving software, and the
> entire world trusted it because no one drove their own car anymore. Then,
> someone is able to crack the software of a driving car and send it off a
> cliff. What are we going to do when our great-grandchildren inherently
> trust artificial intelligence and think granddad is being stupid for
> keeping the 66 fintail with manual drive in the garage and a virus starts
> killing us because we have given over so much control to our automatons?
>
> That movie was *terrifying* to me.
>
> Edd
>
> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 7:21 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > On 30/05/2018 4:27 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote:
> >
> >> Autopilot Does_not_work.
> >>
> >> I had my yearly physicians appointment today and we were discussing
> >> different things. One thing that came up is a young physician that
> recently
> >> died in a single car auto accident. He was showing off his new
> >> Infinity with Pro pilot or some such autonomous driving feature to my
> >> doctor. He remarked to my doctor he could probably sleep while it did
> the
> >> driving.
> >>
> >> I suspect that sentiment cost him his life.
> >>
> >> http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/coroner-doctor-die
> >> s-in-single-vehicle-crash-on-toll-road/article_bdbe746c-317
> >> 5-5c1a-b4f3-b24bd1b2de98.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com_
> >> campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F_medium=email&
> >> utm_content=F16BB8682923D6A57EF91E25A80E537F60855CBF
> >> Rick
> >> ___
> >>
> >
> > How can a person be smart enough to become an MD but dumb enough to think
> > he could sleep while the car drove him somewhere?
> >
> > RB
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "Das beste oder nichts." - *Gottlieb Daimler*
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-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Ed Booher via Mercedes]

It actually isn't the autonomous software that worries me, they *will*
perfect that. They *will* get the software to a point that it will *never*
have a crash, or kill a pedestrian for any reason. *That* is the part that
worries me.

I watched a lot of anime in the 90s, I could have sworn it was Ghost in the
Shell that scared me so bad. However, I haven't been able to re-find the
scene in question, so it must have been another Japanese animated feature.

Where in, they had *perfected* autonomous auto driving software, and the
entire world trusted it because no one drove their own car anymore. Then,
someone is able to crack the software of a driving car and send it off a
cliff. What are we going to do when our great-grandchildren inherently
trust artificial intelligence and think granddad is being stupid for
keeping the 66 fintail with manual drive in the garage and a virus starts
killing us because we have given over so much control to our automatons?

That movie was *terrifying* to me.

Edd

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 7:21 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> On 30/05/2018 4:27 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote:
>
>> Autopilot Does_not_work.
>>
>> I had my yearly physicians appointment today and we were discussing
>> different things. One thing that came up is a young physician that recently
>> died in a single car auto accident. He was showing off his new
>> Infinity with Pro pilot or some such autonomous driving feature to my
>> doctor. He remarked to my doctor he could probably sleep while it did the
>> driving.
>>
>> I suspect that sentiment cost him his life.
>>
>> http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/coroner-doctor-die
>> s-in-single-vehicle-crash-on-toll-road/article_bdbe746c-317
>> 5-5c1a-b4f3-b24bd1b2de98.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com_
>> campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F_medium=email&
>> utm_content=F16BB8682923D6A57EF91E25A80E537F60855CBF
>> Rick
>> ___
>>
>
> How can a person be smart enough to become an MD but dumb enough to think
> he could sleep while the car drove him somewhere?
>
> RB
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Yes its a union thing. Autonomous trains have been possible for decades now.

Flawed as they may be, and as deceptive as the advertising is, the
collision avoidance stuff is probably saving more lives than it takes, by a
large margin. But I have driven the Tesla and was so unimpressed by the
otto pilot that I went and leased an x5 instead. Unlike the tesla it has a
range following radar. Works pretty well but not perfect either.

Teslas got rid of lidar. Nobody else thinks that is possible.

Waymo is way mo advanced than the rest. They will have driverless minivans
for hire deployed this year or next I think; only company to be even
remotely close to that.

On Wed, May 30, 2018, 7:46 PM fmiser via Mercedes 
wrote:

> > Curt wrote:
>
> >  I'm wondering why there seems to be no focus on self driving
> > trains. Seems like thats low hanging fruit, you don't have to
> > steer...
>
> Maybe you would run afoul of a union?
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> Curt wrote:

>  I'm wondering why there seems to be no focus on self driving
> trains. Seems like thats low hanging fruit, you don't have to
> steer... 

Maybe you would run afoul of a union?

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I'm wondering why there seems to be no focus on self driving trains. Seems 
like thats low hanging fruit, you don't have to steer...
-Curt

On Wednesday, May 30, 2018, 5:44:35 PM EDT, Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Who is going to fund 30-50 years of R to perfect autopilot for cars and
trucks?

I read an article the other day which argued that a more rational approach
would be developing better driver assistance tools, which is the path that
MB (and probably others) has taken.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 5:37 PM, OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> I would add - "yet" to Autopilot Does_not_work. Early Sperry auto-pilots in
> aircraft killed a few people as well - but auto-pilot is just short of
> standard equipment now, and most of your airliner rides are flown by a
> computer. Yes, driving a car is far more complex than keeping an aircraft
> straight and level and following a GPS course, but they'll get the bugs
> worked out in another 30 to 50 years . . .
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 30/05/2018 6:58 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

There are many highly intelligent people out there without a lick of common 
sense.  Common sense would dictate to most of us that it would be foolhardy to 
trust a car’s assistive driving features to pilot it without oversight.

-D




No kidding!

RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

There are many highly intelligent people out there without a lick of common 
sense.  Common sense would dictate to most of us that it would be foolhardy to 
trust a car’s assistive driving features to pilot it without oversight.

-D


> On May 30, 2018, at 7:21 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 30/05/2018 4:27 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote:
>>Autopilot Does_not_work.
>> 
>> I had my yearly physicians appointment today and we were discussing 
>> different things. One thing that came up is a young physician that recently 
>> died in a single car auto accident. He was showing off his new Infinity with 
>> Pro pilot or some such autonomous driving feature to my doctor. He remarked 
>> to my doctor he could probably sleep while it did the driving.
>> 
>> I suspect that sentiment cost him his life.
>> 
>> http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/coroner-doctor-dies-in-single-vehicle-crash-on-toll-road/article_bdbe746c-3175-5c1a-b4f3-b24bd1b2de98.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F_medium=email_content=F16BB8682923D6A57EF91E25A80E537F60855CBF
>> Rick
>> ___
> 
> How can a person be smart enough to become an MD but dumb enough to think he 
> could sleep while the car drove him somewhere?
> 
> RB
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

I assume (maybe without justification) that this death and the Tesla crashes 
with parked emergency vehicles are caused by the pilot getting bored and 
letting his attention drift away from the task at hand, the task that he's not 
doing himself but merely supervising...

Mitch. 


> On May 30, 2018 at 7:21 PM Randy Bennell via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> How can a person be smart enough to become an MD but dumb enough to 
> think he could sleep while the car drove him somewhere?
>

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 30/05/2018 4:27 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote:
  
  Autopilot Does_not_work.


I had my yearly physicians appointment today and we were discussing different 
things. One thing that came up is a young physician that recently died in a 
single car auto accident. He was showing off his new Infinity with Pro pilot or 
some such autonomous driving feature to my doctor. He remarked to my doctor he 
could probably sleep while it did the driving.

I suspect that sentiment cost him his life.

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/coroner-doctor-dies-in-single-vehicle-crash-on-toll-road/article_bdbe746c-3175-5c1a-b4f3-b24bd1b2de98.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F_medium=email_content=F16BB8682923D6A57EF91E25A80E537F60855CBF
Rick
___


How can a person be smart enough to become an MD but dumb enough to 
think he could sleep while the car drove him somewhere?


RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Absolutely - they are trained and kept current to the standards of their
country, or company in some cases. I really like the pilots who fly GA
aircraft in their spare time for fun - they know how to hand fly an
airplane. that having been said, I don't think Sully flew GA - just had
good training and kept his cool.

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 4:54 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> > On May 30, 2018 at 5:37 PM OK Don via Mercedes 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I would add - "yet" to Autopilot Does_not_work. Early Sperry auto-pilots
> in
> > aircraft killed a few people as well - but auto-pilot is just short of
> > standard equipment now, and most of your airliner rides are flown by a
> > computer.
>
> ...resulting, in some cases, in high hour "pilots" who don't know how to
> fly when they have to take over from the robopilot...
> https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/2014_Asiana_BMG-Abstract.aspx
>
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>


-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On May 30, 2018 at 5:37 PM OK Don via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> 
> I would add - "yet" to Autopilot Does_not_work. Early Sperry auto-pilots in
> aircraft killed a few people as well - but auto-pilot is just short of
> standard equipment now, and most of your airliner rides are flown by a
> computer.

...resulting, in some cases, in high hour "pilots" who don't know how to fly 
when they have to take over from the robopilot...
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/2014_Asiana_BMG-Abstract.aspx

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Who is going to fund 30-50 years of R to perfect autopilot for cars and
trucks?

I read an article the other day which argued that a more rational approach
would be developing better driver assistance tools, which is the path that
MB (and probably others) has taken.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 5:37 PM, OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> I would add - "yet" to Autopilot Does_not_work. Early Sperry auto-pilots in
> aircraft killed a few people as well - but auto-pilot is just short of
> standard equipment now, and most of your airliner rides are flown by a
> computer. Yes, driving a car is far more complex than keeping an aircraft
> straight and level and following a GPS course, but they'll get the bugs
> worked out in another 30 to 50 years . . .
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[OK Don via Mercedes]

I would add - "yet" to Autopilot Does_not_work. Early Sperry auto-pilots in
aircraft killed a few people as well - but auto-pilot is just short of
standard equipment now, and most of your airliner rides are flown by a
computer. Yes, driving a car is far more complex than keeping an aircraft
straight and level and following a GPS course, but they'll get the bugs
worked out in another 30 to 50 years . . .

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
>  Autopilot Does_not_work.
>
> I had my yearly physicians appointment today and we were discussing
> different things. One thing that came up is a young physician that recently
> died in a single car auto accident. He was showing off his new
> Infinity with Pro pilot or some such autonomous driving feature to my
> doctor. He remarked to my doctor he could probably sleep while it did the
> driving.
>
> I suspect that sentiment cost him his life.
>
> http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/coroner-doctor-
> dies-in-single-vehicle-crash-on-toll-road/article_bdbe746c-
> 3175-5c1a-b4f3-b24bd1b2de98.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com&
> utm_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F_medium=email_content=
> F16BB8682923D6A57EF91E25A80E537F60855CBF
> Rick
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>


-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

 
 Autopilot Does_not_work. 

I had my yearly physicians appointment today and we were discussing different 
things. One thing that came up is a young physician that recently died in a 
single car auto accident. He was showing off his new Infinity with Pro pilot or 
some such autonomous driving feature to my doctor. He remarked to my doctor he 
could probably sleep while it did the driving. 

I suspect that sentiment cost him his life. 

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/coroner-doctor-dies-in-single-vehicle-crash-on-toll-road/article_bdbe746c-3175-5c1a-b4f3-b24bd1b2de98.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F_medium=email_content=F16BB8682923D6A57EF91E25A80E537F60855CBF
  
Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

In 50+ years of driving I have only rearended one car - but it was an Acura
so no big deal.

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> So far in 2018, these rare and expensive cars have "assisted" their owners
> into hitting TWO firetrucks and now a police SUV. Just imagine what would
> happen if there were a lot of these things on the road.
>
> And Uber managed to kill a pedestrian.
>
> Mitch.
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

So far in 2018, these rare and expensive cars have "assisted" their owners into 
hitting TWO firetrucks and now a police SUV. Just imagine what would happen if 
there were a lot of these things on the road. 

And Uber managed to kill a pedestrian. 

Mitch.

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[MBZ] OT: Elon Musk's very awkward moment...

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Tesla in Autopilot mode hits parked police car in Calif.Published:
Wednesday, May 30, 2018

A Tesla Inc. electric vehicle in Autopilot mode yesterday crashed into a
parked police car in Laguna Beach, Calif., authorities said.

The driver of the Tesla sedan suffered minor injuries, said police Sgt. Jim
Cota.

There was no one behind the wheel of the police car, which ended up with
two wheels on the sidewalk, Cota said.

The incident places even further scrutiny on Tesla's semiautonomous
Autopilot feature.

Earlier this month, a Tesla Model S on Autopilot sped up just before
crashing into a fire truck in Utah.

Consumer groups have asked federal regulators to probe what they call the
company's "deceptive advertising" for the feature (*Greenwire*
, May 23; Associated Press
, May 29)
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