Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 20:49:05 -0400 Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
 wrote:

> I'll probably need another dryer bottle too.

Yes.

From nearly 6 years ago,

==

   From: Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
Subject: [MBZ] Video W123 Sanden, Dual Parallel flow condenser,
   and r134a results
   Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2017 19:57:02 +

Not me, not mine.

How many things can you spot that are incorrect...?‎ (will probably drive
Dan P into a rant).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5lvHxCVxWg=em

Rick

==


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

I'll probably need another dryer bottle too.

On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 7:46 PM Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Nitrogen tests only one thing: does it leak statically.  A test
> refrigerant tests everything.
> After it passes the test, which can last as long as you like, you put R12
> back in.
> That's the official story.
>
> -- Jim
>
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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

Nitrogen tests only one thing: does it leak statically.  A test refrigerant 
tests everything.
After it passes the test, which can last as long as you like, you put R12 back 
in.
That's the official story.

-- Jim

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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Nitrogen is always nice for testing. Has anyone explained to Andrew that “test 
refrigerant” as you’re describing contains propane?

< pause >

Of course, it is approved in other countries for refrigerant applications.

-D

> On Apr 28, 2023, at 4:32 PM, Jim Cathey  wrote:
> 
>> If you do, just understand that without changing the condenser it will not 
>> be very efficient. On hot summer days it may not do the job.
> 
> That is the advantage of the test refrigerant:  For $6, only, you're back 
> running again, good as new.
> 
> -- Jim
> 

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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> If you do, just understand that without changing the condenser it will not be 
> very efficient. On hot summer days it may not do the job.

That is the advantage of the test refrigerant:  For $6, only, you're back 
running again, good as new.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

If you do, just understand that without changing the condenser it will not be 
very efficient. On hot summer days it may not do the job.

-D

On Apr 28, 2023, at 3:10 PM, Andrew Strasfogel 
mailto:astrasfo...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Definitely gonna check for leaks.  I will probably elect to convert to R134.

On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 12:32 PM dan penoff.com via 
Mercedes mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
This may explain why it can’t be found on eBay any more.

No problem buying it in AZ. Tons of the stuff on the shelf.

-D

> On Apr 28, 2023, at 9:16 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
>
> Here in WA you can't even buy R134 over the counter anymore.  The 
> enviro-weenies
> (?) seem to have closed that 'horrendous loophole'.  Only licensed shops can 
> have it.
> Or, for me, drive the short distance to ID and buy all you want.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Definitely gonna check for leaks.  I will probably elect to convert to R134.

On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 12:32 PM dan penoff.com via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> This may explain why it can’t be found on eBay any more.
>
> No problem buying it in AZ. Tons of the stuff on the shelf.
>
> -D
>
> > On Apr 28, 2023, at 9:16 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > Here in WA you can't even buy R134 over the counter anymore.  The
> enviro-weenies
> > (?) seem to have closed that 'horrendous loophole'.  Only licensed shops
> can have it.
> > Or, for me, drive the short distance to ID and buy all you want.
> >
> > -- Jim
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

This may explain why it can’t be found on eBay any more.

No problem buying it in AZ. Tons of the stuff on the shelf.

-D

> On Apr 28, 2023, at 9:16 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Here in WA you can't even buy R134 over the counter anymore.  The 
> enviro-weenies
> (?) seem to have closed that 'horrendous loophole'.  Only licensed shops can 
> have it.
> Or, for me, drive the short distance to ID and buy all you want.
> 
> -- Jim
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> My 300SD W126 has not yet been converted to R134 and the AC does not run
> ICE COLD.  Should I try to hunt down some freon, or convert to R134?  Is
> R12 still available or prohibitively expensive?

I recommend testing the system thoroughly for leaks.  A proper test can
take years.  Costs about $6 (or used to!) to test-fill.  It's also more 
effective
than R12, and is mineral-oil compatible.  In the hottest climes it might not
work so well, or so I've heard.  (Gas thermodynamic details omitted here.)
Vacuum, fill, and enjoy.  Repeat as necessary.

Here in WA you can't even buy R134 over the counter anymore.  The enviro-weenies
(?) seem to have closed that 'horrendous loophole'.  Only licensed shops can 
have it.
Or, for me, drive the short distance to ID and buy all you want.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 21:49:03 -0600 Craig via Mercedes
 wrote:

> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 00:32:38 + "dan penoff.com via Mercedes"
>  wrote:
> 
> > For what it’s worth, it looks like eBay doesn’t allow R134a sales any
> > more. I used to buy it in quantity there and I checked today and
> > couldn’t find any. Weird.
> 
> Yes, it certainly is wierd. If you type "R-134" in the search bar, when
> the results are presented, there are links to different searches under
> the box in which you put the search terms.
> 
> Those different searches are, "30 lb cylinder r-134a refrigerant",
> "r 134a refrigerant", and "a c r-134a refrigerant", none of which bring
> up R-134A refrigerant. The search for the 30 lb cylinder brings up a
> couple of listings Envirosafe refrigerant, but nothing else.

I was mistaken. There is ONE listing

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325634595166
6ea 12oz cans of R-134a for $125.00


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 00:32:38 + "dan penoff.com via Mercedes"
 wrote:

> For what it’s worth, it looks like eBay doesn’t allow R134a sales any
> more. I used to buy it in quantity there and I checked today and
> couldn’t find any. Weird.

Yes, it certainly is wierd. If you type "R-134" in the search bar, when
the results are presented, there are links to different searches under
the box in which you put the search terms.

Those different searches are, "30 lb cylinder r-134a refrigerant",
"r 134a refrigerant", and "a c r-134a refrigerant", none of which bring up
R-134A refrigerant. The search for the 30 lb cylinder brings up a couple
of listings Envirosafe refrigerant, but nothing else.

Yes, wierd.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 23:48:47 + "dan penoff.com via Mercedes"
 wrote:

> To clarify, a parallel flow condenser allows you to use R134a and get
> comparable performance with the prior R12 system.

To clarify a little more, R-134A is not as efficient in its heat transfer
in the condenser and needs either a larger condenser or one which gets
rid of heat better. A parallel-flow condenser gets rid of heat better.

My 1980 300SD was converted to R134. I don't know what was done or who
did it (out in California). I don't know if it has a parallel-flow
condenser.

I guess I will see how it cools -- maybe a little trip to Las Cruces in
July or August would show how good it is.

Thank you for the links, Dan. If my car's A/C is lacking, I will be
making use of them


Craig


> > On Apr 27, 2023, at 4:45 PM, dan penoff.com  wrote:
> > 
> > You have two choices:
> > 
> > 1.) Find a shop that will do R12; or,
> > 
> > 2.) Replace your current condenser with a parallel flow condenser.
> > There is a company that makes them for W123 and W126 chassis cars. I
> > put one in my 350SDL and it was a “portal to the Arctic” when I was
> > done.
> > 
> > If you’re planning on owning the car for a while, I would seriously
> > consider going with a parallel flow condenser. R12 is getting harder
> > and harder to find, not to mention more expensive.
> > 
> >  > > Parallel Flow Condenser Upgrade Kit W126 – Klima Design
> > > Works > > >
> > klimakit.com > > [klimafavicon.ico.ico]

Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Thanks for suggesting the alternative, Allan! I had forgotten about that - I’ve 
used it successfully in the past as an R12 alternative and it work well. That 
said, if the hoses haven’t been changed to barrier style hoses, you have to 
evacuate and recharge from time to time because some of the gas molecules in 
the blend will escape through the hoses, the ratio of gasses gets wonky and it 
stops working or works poorly.

For what it’s worth, it looks like eBay doesn’t allow R134a sales any more. I 
used to buy it in quantity there and I checked today and couldn’t find any. 
Weird.

-D

> On Apr 27, 2023, at 3:57 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> R12 is probably expensive if you can get it and of possibly questionable 
> quality.
> 
> If it's not leaking, I'd try a R12 substitute. Maybe Freeze12, Autofrost, or 
> Jim Cathey's test blend.
> 
> If it's leaking, the blended substitutes are not ideal. Because of the 
> different partial pressures of the gasses, they leak at different rates. To 
> recharge and re-establish the proper blend you'll need to fully evacuate the 
> system (ideally fixing the leaks before you do).
> 
> You can convert to R134a but it's getting expensive too and on the way out. 
> If you do that be sure it's done properly, the old oil flushed out and proper 
> compatible oil used.
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2023, at 16:59, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>> My 300SD W126 has not yet been converted to R134 and the AC does not run
>> ICE COLD.  Should I try to hunt down some freon, or convert to R134?  Is
>> R12 still available or prohibitively expensive?
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 1985 300SD
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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

To clarify, a parallel flow condenser allows you to use R134a and get 
comparable performance with the prior R12 system.

-D

> On Apr 27, 2023, at 4:45 PM, dan penoff.com  wrote:
> 
> You have two choices:
> 
> 1.) Find a shop that will do R12; or,
> 
> 2.) Replace your current condenser with a parallel flow condenser. There is a 
> company that makes them for W123 and W126 chassis cars. I put one in my 
> 350SDL and it was a “portal to the Arctic” when I was done.
> 
> If you’re planning on owning the car for a while, I would seriously consider 
> going with a parallel flow condenser. R12 is getting harder and harder to 
> find, not to mention more expensive.
> 
> 
> Parallel Flow Condenser Upgrade Kit W126 – Klima Design 
> Works
> klimakit.com
> [klimafavicon.ico.ico]
> 
> -D
> 
> On Apr 27, 2023, at 3:57 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> R12 is probably expensive if you can get it and of possibly questionable 
> quality.
> 
> If it's not leaking, I'd try a R12 substitute. Maybe Freeze12, Autofrost, or 
> Jim Cathey's test blend.
> 
> If it's leaking, the blended substitutes are not ideal. Because of the 
> different partial pressures of the gasses, they leak at different rates. To 
> recharge and re-establish the proper blend you'll need to fully evacuate the 
> system (ideally fixing the leaks before you do).
> 
> You can convert to R134a but it's getting expensive too and on the way out. 
> If you do that be sure it's done properly, the old oil flushed out and proper 
> compatible oil used.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 27, 2023, at 16:59, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> My 300SD W126 has not yet been converted to R134 and the AC does not run
> ICE COLD.  Should I try to hunt down some freon, or convert to R134?  Is
> R12 still available or prohibitively expensive?
> 
> Andrew
> 1985 300SD
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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

You have two choices:

1.) Find a shop that will do R12; or,

2.) Replace your current condenser with a parallel flow condenser. There is a 
company that makes them for W123 and W126 chassis cars. I put one in my 350SDL 
and it was a “portal to the Arctic” when I was done.

If you’re planning on owning the car for a while, I would seriously consider 
going with a parallel flow condenser. R12 is getting harder and harder to find, 
not to mention more expensive.


Parallel Flow Condenser Upgrade Kit W126 – Klima Design 
Works
klimakit.com
[klimafavicon.ico.ico]

-D

On Apr 27, 2023, at 3:57 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes  
wrote:

R12 is probably expensive if you can get it and of possibly questionable 
quality.

If it's not leaking, I'd try a R12 substitute. Maybe Freeze12, Autofrost, or 
Jim Cathey's test blend.

If it's leaking, the blended substitutes are not ideal. Because of the 
different partial pressures of the gasses, they leak at different rates. To 
recharge and re-establish the proper blend you'll need to fully evacuate the 
system (ideally fixing the leaks before you do).

You can convert to R134a but it's getting expensive too and on the way out. If 
you do that be sure it's done properly, the old oil flushed out and proper 
compatible oil used.


On Thu, Apr 27, 2023, at 16:59, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
My 300SD W126 has not yet been converted to R134 and the AC does not run
ICE COLD.  Should I try to hunt down some freon, or convert to R134?  Is
R12 still available or prohibitively expensive?

Andrew
1985 300SD
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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

R12 is probably expensive if you can get it and of possibly questionable 
quality.

If it's not leaking, I'd try a R12 substitute. Maybe Freeze12, Autofrost, or 
Jim Cathey's test blend.

If it's leaking, the blended substitutes are not ideal. Because of the 
different partial pressures of the gasses, they leak at different rates. To 
recharge and re-establish the proper blend you'll need to fully evacuate the 
system (ideally fixing the leaks before you do).

You can convert to R134a but it's getting expensive too and on the way out. If 
you do that be sure it's done properly, the old oil flushed out and proper 
compatible oil used.


On Thu, Apr 27, 2023, at 16:59, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
> My 300SD W126 has not yet been converted to R134 and the AC does not run
> ICE COLD.  Should I try to hunt down some freon, or convert to R134?  Is
> R12 still available or prohibitively expensive?
>
> Andrew
> 1985 300SD
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Re: [MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

The purists will tell you that you should look for R12.
The real question is what else should you do apart from adding freon to 
try to ensure that you are not wasting your money on something that will 
soon leak out.


Randy


On 27/04/2023 4:59 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

My 300SD W126 has not yet been converted to R134 and the AC does not run
ICE COLD.  Should I try to hunt down some freon, or convert to R134?  Is
R12 still available or prohibitively expensive?

Andrew
1985 300SD
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[MBZ] R12 vs. R134

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

My 300SD W126 has not yet been converted to R134 and the AC does not run
ICE COLD.  Should I try to hunt down some freon, or convert to R134?  Is
R12 still available or prohibitively expensive?

Andrew
1985 300SD
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