Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-18 Thread Allan Streib
Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net writes:

 Tap the new bearing on, install the rubber mount,

This looks like how mine was installed, but this diagram (purportedly,
of a W126 driveshaft) shows the mount going on first, then the bearing.
There is a shoulder on the rubber mount so depending on whether you put
the bearing on first or the mount will change which side of the mount
faces forwards.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=81345d=1276035348

Does really it matter?

Allan

-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-18 Thread Peter Frederick
That I do not remember, it's been a while.  Check to see how the  
carrier fits, it may only fit if put on in one direction.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-18 Thread Allan Streib
It *looks* like the bearing would end up supported in the same place
either way; I installed it the way the old carrier was oriented, since
it was a MB part (had a star) and I presume was original.

The diagram I found that implied it should face the opposite way was for
a W126, so perhaps it was different for that car.

Allan

Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net writes:

 That I do not remember, it's been a while.  Check to see how the
 carrier fits, it may only fit if put on in one direction.

 Peter

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-18 Thread Dieselhead

I think you made the right choice.  I'd say install it the way the old one was.


It *looks* like the bearing would end up supported in the same place
either way; I installed it the way the old carrier was oriented, since
it was a MB part (had a star) and I presume was original.

The diagram I found that implied it should face the opposite way was for
a W126, so perhaps it was different for that car.

Allan


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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-17 Thread Allan Streib
Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net writes:

 Drop the exhaust, remove the bolts from the flex disks front and
 rear, pull back the rubber boot at the clamp ring in front of the u- 
 joint and loosen it enough to pull the front half of the shaft back.
 Loosen the screws holding the center mount, pull the shaft back, and
 drop the whole thing out of the car.

OK I'm having a little trouble matching this to what I'm seeing.

I have the exhaust down, both couplings unbolted, as well as the carrier
bracket.  The bearing is basically loose in the carrier, it's hanging on
by a few strands of rubber.  I don't see a rubber boot.  There is a
hex-sided ring on the driveshaft, is that the clamp ring?  The front
part of the shaft will slide back and forth, though I didn't loosen the
ring.  But I can't get the rear to clear the pin on the differential.

-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-17 Thread Peter Frederick
Should be a hex flat ring and some flats on the shaft, but if it's  
already loose this is not a problem.  Might unscrew a bit to give it  
more travel.


The rubber boot is missing, it pushes over the riing to keep dirt and  
corrosion to a minimum.


I have found that you must get the shaft out of the front fitting  
first, it's difficult to pull the rear forward that much.  Let the  
center mount droop and push the front piece back firmly -- it will  
move back enough to allow you to drop the shaft down at an angle and  
clear the pin in the front mount.


It can be quite a wrestling match if you are up on jack stands  
instead of a lift.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-17 Thread Allan Streib
OK, thanks... got it out.

My main problem was that I had only unbolted the coupling from the
transmission flange, not from the driveshaft.  Once I removed the front
coupling completely the rest was easy.

Allan

Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net writes:

 Should be a hex flat ring and some flats on the shaft, but if it's
 already loose this is not a problem.  Might unscrew a bit to give it
 more travel.

 The rubber boot is missing, it pushes over the riing to keep dirt and
 corrosion to a minimum.

 I have found that you must get the shaft out of the front fitting
 first, it's difficult to pull the rear forward that much.  Let the
 center mount droop and push the front piece back firmly -- it will
 move back enough to allow you to drop the shaft down at an angle and
 clear the pin in the front mount.

 It can be quite a wrestling match if you are up on jack stands
 instead of a lift.

 Peter

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-17 Thread Peter Frederick

Good, i forgot to mention you have to take it ALL apart...

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-17 Thread Allan Streib
So the clamping ring seems to have it's own inner boot... I have a
new boot but it seems that it's designed to fit over the ring.  Are
there different designs?

Allan

Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net writes:

 Good, i forgot to mention you have to take it ALL apart...

 Peter

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-17 Thread Allan Streib
Also, some minor differences between my car (1983 300D) and this
pictorial:

http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/W123DriveShaftSupportBearing

There does not appear to be a circlip on mine.  So I'm assuming I can
just pull the bearing off with the pullers.  Unfortunately my puller is
not long enough to grab the bearing so I'll have to put this on hold
until morning when I can get a bigger one.

Allan

Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu writes:

 So the clamping ring seems to have it's own inner boot... I have a
 new boot but it seems that it's designed to fit over the ring.  Are
 there different designs?

 Allan

 Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net writes:

 Good, i forgot to mention you have to take it ALL apart...

 Peter

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-17 Thread Peter Frederick
You may also be able to tap it off with a screwdriver and a light  
hammer, they don't fit all that tight.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-17 Thread Allan Streib
Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net writes:

 You may also be able to tap it off with a screwdriver and a light
 hammer, they don't fit all that tight.

Now don't take away my excuse to buy new tools!

-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-14 Thread harry watkins

Allan

Here is my write up for the 85 TD.

First make sure that's your problem, this is not one of those may as well
deals, too expensive.

I had to remove the whole shaft to find that I did indeed have a bad bearing
on my 85 300TD.

I bought a used one from sa...@silverstarrecyling.com  for $125 plus $50
shipping.  They just taped it to a 2X4 and sent it UPS.

Here is my write up, no pictures:

Subject: Drive shaft removal steps, 85 300TD
 


From: Harry Watkins harryw...@gmail.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Date: Mon, Feb 5, 2007 at 2:50 PM


 Thanks to Peter and others, the job was made easy. While its fresh on
my mind, I'll share the steps I took. Keep in mind that this is an 85 300TD
and I've no experience with other models.

 I have the paper manual and read the procedure before hand, however,
more than one model was covered and I got a little confused. Peter's answers
were not confusing and all went smoothly after his input.

   1.. Remove the exhaust system from the transmission to the bumper.
Two bolts with nuts, ½ socket and ½ box end. Four rubber donuts, all near
the bumper, I left one donut attached to hold up that end while I removed
the flange connection. I used a screwdriver and a wiggle to separate the
pipe. Lowered it to the floor and pushed it clear. The manual spoke of an
exhaust baffle that mine did not have. I pre Kroil everything I work on but
there is very little rust under this car and it probably was not needed..
   2.. I supported the transmission with a large piece of wood and a
small floor jack, then removed the transmission rear support plate and
mount. Four bolts going straight up, 11/16' socket. One nut above the rubber
mount, ¾, I used a flex gear wrench.
   3.. Disconnect the front flex disk. I removed the three bolts (5/8
socket) and nuts (11/16' box end) that left the disk attached to the
transmission. I had to rotate the drive shaft once to gain access to the
third bolt. The rear wheels were on ramps with a large floor jack left under
the differential. I raised the rear just enough to turn the wheels. I ended
up doing this again with the rear disk, so next time I'll remove bolts front
and rear, then rotate the shaft only one time to gain access. I then used a
tire tool to force the shaft to the rear and clear of the transmission.
   4.. Remove the center bearing support bolts (two). ½ short socket
with a 6 wobble extension. Both are straight up, but one side needs a
little wobble to get a good fit.
   5.. Disconnect the parking brake equalizer mechanism. I removed the
spring by inserting the tire tool in the coil as a handle and gained enough
slack to remove it and the V wire anchor. Needle nose pliers were used to
remove a tiny cotter key from a small pin that released the cable coming
from the cab. Now there was enough slack to remove the lever and one of the
brake shoe cables to let everything swing clear.
   6.. There is a welded plate across the shaft tunnel that keeps the
shaft supported up front until you are ready to slide it out to the rear. At
this point, I used bailing wire to secure the two shaft ends together so
there was no chance of separation until I had it out and marked for exact
rematch.
   7.. Remove the rear disk. Same as the front, I left the disk on the
differential. I forced it forward with the tire tool, dropped it down and
slid it to the rear and out.  I should have left it on the shaft for easier
replacement on the bench. (oh well)
  Hopefully there are folks that will chime in to make this easier..

 Harry





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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-14 Thread Jaime Kopchinski
Whats with all the standard size tools?

This job (like all others on Mercedes) should be done with metric tools!

Jaime


 Two bolts with nuts, ½ socket and ½ box end.

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-14 Thread Rolf
Do not tighten the clamp nut on the DS unless the car is on ramps or the 
wheels are supported.


The rear flex disk is not as much as an issue as the front. If time or 
money are an issue, do the front one.


-Rolf

On 09/13/2010 08:57 PM, Peter Frederick wrote:
Flex disks are shot, replace pronto -- it's not fun to have one fall 
apart, believe me!


Drop the exhaust, remove the bolts from the flex disks front and rear, 
pull back the rubber boot at the clamp ring in front of the u-joint 
and loosen it enough to pull the front half of the shaft back.  Loosen 
the screws holding the center mount, pull the shaft back, and drop the 
whole thing out of the car.


Mark the shaft halves (or find the factory mark), separate them, pull 
the rubber mount off, and use a gear puller to remove the bearing.  
Tap the new bearing on, install the rubber mount, put the shaft 
together, install the new flex disks on the diff and tranny flanges, 
push the shaft together, put in place, screw in the bolts  for the 
center carrier (the rear half will stay in place on the centering 
bushing), then put the front half in place.  Tighten up bolts of the 
flex disks, rotate shaft a few times to settle it in place, then 
tighten the clamp up and restore the rubber boot to cover the clamp.  
Torque the bearing mount.


Not a bad job, although the nuts on the flex disks are all lockers and 
fairly stiff until almost off.  Be sure to tighten then correctly and 
get them in the proper way, including getting the washers in the right 
place.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-14 Thread Mitch Haley

Rolf wrote:
Do not tighten the clamp nut on the DS unless the car is on ramps or the 
wheels are supported.


The driveshaft changes length with weight on the suspension???

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-14 Thread Dieselhead
Does on a 'merican solid rear axle.  On an MB, the transmission is 
relatively fixed, and the diff is relatively fixed.  Any change in 
driveshaft length is minimal, in the range of a few thousandths, due 
to flex of the rubber mounts for engine, trans and diff.


Vibration can come from bad mounts, especially motor mounts, Bad flex 
disks, bad u-joint, or bad carrier bearing support.  Other times 
vibration comes from the driveshaft being separated and not put back 
in the right spline.   Mark your driveshaft halves for alignment 
while it is still on the car!




Rolf wrote:
Do not tighten the clamp nut on the DS unless the car is on ramps 
or the wheels are supported.


The driveshaft changes length with weight on the suspension???

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-14 Thread Allan Streib
Car is on stands,  wheels are not supported.  I just ordered the parts
from Rusty so if usual shipping times prevail I'll be getting started on
this in a day or two.

Clamping the driveshaft on the ground will be a tight squeeze but I
might manage.  Guess I could stack some boards under each tire and set
it down on those to get a few extra inches.

Allan


Rolf r...@winmutt.com writes:

 Do not tighten the clamp nut on the DS unless the car is on ramps or
 the wheels are supported.

 The rear flex disk is not as much as an issue as the front. If time or
 money are an issue, do the front one.

 -Rolf


-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-14 Thread Allan Streib
Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com writes:

 Vibration can come from bad mounts, especially motor mounts, Bad flex
 disks, bad u-joint, or bad carrier bearing support.

Motor mounts are fairly new.  Flex disks show some small cracks around
the bolts.  Carrier bearing support is shot, that's clear now that I
have the car up on stands and can get a good look at it.

I'm going to replace both disks, the center carrier and bearing, and do
a tranny fluid change while I have it up on the stands; it's due for
one.

Some oil seeping from the pinion seal on the diff but Peter scared me
off of trying that myself.  Might change the diff oil though, what's a
good brand to use for that?

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-14 Thread Rolf
The transmission is relatively fixed. The diff is not, it is mounted to 
the subcarrier which does move. I would not tighten the ds clamp or the 
carrier bracket until its down. The manual says not to do it until after 
the crossmember is bolted in. All I know is that I tightened everything 
on the ground and never had vibrations, others who did not do it on the 
ground did. I have swapped 4? trans now and done it the same way every time.


-Rolf


On 09/14/2010 04:24 PM, Dieselhead wrote:
Does on a 'merican solid rear axle.  On an MB, the transmission is 
relatively fixed, and the diff is relatively fixed.  Any change in 
driveshaft length is minimal, in the range of a few thousandths, due 
to flex of the rubber mounts for engine, trans and diff.


Vibration can come from bad mounts, especially motor mounts, Bad flex 
disks, bad u-joint, or bad carrier bearing support.  Other times 
vibration comes from the driveshaft being separated and not put back 
in the right spline.   Mark your driveshaft halves for alignment while 
it is still on the car!




Rolf wrote:
Do not tighten the clamp nut on the DS unless the car is on ramps or 
the wheels are supported.


The driveshaft changes length with weight on the suspension???

Mitch.

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[MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-13 Thread Allan Streib
How much play should there be in the center driveshaft support?  should
I be able to easily move the driveshaft by hand?

If I replace the support, should I/must I also replace the bearing?

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-13 Thread Rolf

None or almost none. Yes.

Also check you flex discs and shifter bushings before you place your 
order with Rusty.


-Rolf

On 09/13/2010 06:45 PM, Allan Streib wrote:

How much play should there be in the center driveshaft support?  should
I be able to easily move the driveshaft by hand?

If I replace the support, should I/must I also replace the bearing?

Allan
   



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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-13 Thread Rolf

PS dont forget to use loctite on the flex disc bolts!

On 09/13/2010 06:45 PM, Allan Streib wrote:

How much play should there be in the center driveshaft support?  should
I be able to easily move the driveshaft by hand?

If I replace the support, should I/must I also replace the bearing?

Allan
   



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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-13 Thread Allan Streib
Rolf r...@winmutt.com writes:

 None or almost none. Yes.

 Also check you flex discs and shifter bushings before you place your
 order with Rusty.

There are some small cracks visible in the flex discs, right around the
bolts, they follow the curve of the bolt holes and do not extend into
the body of the disc.  I guess any cracking is grounds for replacement
though?

Anyone know of a how-to on the center support bearing replacement?
Looks like I might have to drop the exhaust?

The exhaust is getting fairly rusty too, I have noticed a bit more noise
lately and I spotted a few pinholes.  Is a quick-service muffler shop
going to be able to do a decent job here?  Thinking about just welding
on some patches for now...

Allan

-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-13 Thread Peter Frederick
Flex disks are shot, replace pronto -- it's not fun to have one fall  
apart, believe me!


Drop the exhaust, remove the bolts from the flex disks front and  
rear, pull back the rubber boot at the clamp ring in front of the u- 
joint and loosen it enough to pull the front half of the shaft back.   
Loosen the screws holding the center mount, pull the shaft back, and  
drop the whole thing out of the car.


Mark the shaft halves (or find the factory mark), separate them, pull  
the rubber mount off, and use a gear puller to remove the bearing.   
Tap the new bearing on, install the rubber mount, put the shaft  
together, install the new flex disks on the diff and tranny flanges,  
push the shaft together, put in place, screw in the bolts  for the  
center carrier (the rear half will stay in place on the centering  
bushing), then put the front half in place.  Tighten up bolts of the  
flex disks, rotate shaft a few times to settle it in place, then  
tighten the clamp up and restore the rubber boot to cover the clamp.   
Torque the bearing mount.


Not a bad job, although the nuts on the flex disks are all lockers  
and fairly stiff until almost off.  Be sure to tighten then correctly  
and get them in the proper way, including getting the washers in the  
right place.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-13 Thread Allan Streib
Thanks... doesn't sound too bad.

Are there particular torque values for the flex disc bolts, or just be
sure they are tight?

I am also seeing some oil at the differential input, is that a seal that
can be replaced easily?

Allan

Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net writes:

 Flex disks are shot, replace pronto -- it's not fun to have one fall
 apart, believe me!

 Drop the exhaust, remove the bolts from the flex disks front and
 rear, pull back the rubber boot at the clamp ring in front of the u- 
 joint and loosen it enough to pull the front half of the shaft back.
 Loosen the screws holding the center mount, pull the shaft back, and
 drop the whole thing out of the car.

 Mark the shaft halves (or find the factory mark), separate them, pull
 the rubber mount off, and use a gear puller to remove the bearing.
 Tap the new bearing on, install the rubber mount, put the shaft
 together, install the new flex disks on the diff and tranny flanges,
 push the shaft together, put in place, screw in the bolts  for the
 center carrier (the rear half will stay in place on the centering
 bushing), then put the front half in place.  Tighten up bolts of the
 flex disks, rotate shaft a few times to settle it in place, then
 tighten the clamp up and restore the rubber boot to cover the clamp.
 Torque the bearing mount.

 Not a bad job, although the nuts on the flex disks are all lockers
 and fairly stiff until almost off.  Be sure to tighten then correctly
 and get them in the proper way, including getting the washers in the
 right place.

 Peter

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1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-13 Thread Peter Frederick
Replacing the pinion seal is a real pain, as you must slowly crush  
the hollow washer to get the correct clearance on the pinion gear.   
I'd not try it myself, although my brother, who has rebuilt a number  
of differentials and works in a gear shop, might.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] diagnosing driveshaft vibration

2010-09-13 Thread Jim Cathey
Replacing the pinion seal is a real pain, as you must slowly crush the 
hollow washer to get the correct clearance on the pinion gear.


It can be done DIY, but it's not the easiest job.  You need
a special socket to remove the yoke on the pinion.  Castle
earlier, 12-point later.  I did it once.

-- Jim



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