On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 04:32:20AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> - Original Message -
> > On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 03:25:05AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> > > How should you brought this? You should have assumed that we have
> > > our reasons
> > > -- after all we've been living under the fru
- Original Message -
> On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 03:25:05AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> > How should you brought this? You should have assumed that we have
> > our reasons
> > -- after all we've been living under the frustration of these
> > patents,
> > walking on a mine field, for a decade
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:46:00AM +0200, Philipp Klaus Krause wrote:
> Am 10.08.2011 08:50, schrieb Marek Olšák:
> > The problem is there is no adoption of S2TC in the industry. The
> > current state is that Unigine products don't run without full S3TC.
> > Neither does the id Tech 4 engine. Most,
Am 10.08.2011 11:46, schrieb Rudolf Polzer:
> Speaking of BPTC - what is its patent situation? From a quick glance at the
> extension spec, it does seem to use S3TC's interpolation method, so it likely
> is not safe from S3's patents. But I may be wrong there, as BPTC is quite
> messy
> and convol
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:42:11AM +0200, Philipp Klaus Krause wrote:
> Am 10.08.2011 11:34, schrieb Rudolf Polzer:
>
> >
> >> The OpenGL ARB cannot incorporate S3TC into a core spec anyway.
> >
> > But it already is core part of OpenGL 3.0.
>
> No.
>
> Making S3TC part of OpenGL was discussed
Am 10.08.2011 08:50, schrieb Marek Olšák:
>
> The problem is there is no adoption of S2TC in the industry. The
> current state is that Unigine products don't run without full S3TC.
> Neither does the id Tech 4 engine. Most, if not all, D3D games
> consider S3TC a standard. In order to succeed, S2
Am 10.08.2011 11:34, schrieb Rudolf Polzer:
>
>> The OpenGL ARB cannot incorporate S3TC into a core spec anyway.
>
> But it already is core part of OpenGL 3.0.
No.
Making S3TC part of OpenGL was discussed, but rejected. OpenGL only
requires RGTC (since OpenGL 3.0) and BPTC (since OpenGL 4.2).
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 08:50:38AM +0200, Marek Olšák wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 7:11 AM, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
> > To exaggerate again: what if we upload null bytes into that decompressor
> > circuit? The decoding algorithms would still run on the hardware, but all we
> > would get out of it
On Wed, 2011-08-10 at 08:50 +0200, Marek Olšák wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 7:11 AM, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 11:45:23PM +0200, Marek Olšák wrote:
> >> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> >> > I don't have time for a longer reply now, but I do think
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 7:11 AM, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 11:45:23PM +0200, Marek Olšák wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Jose Fonseca wrote:
>> > I don't have time for a longer reply now, but I do think your S2TC work is
>> > interesting, and that you've successfu
On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 11:45:23PM +0200, Marek Olšák wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> > I don't have time for a longer reply now, but I do think your S2TC work is
> > interesting, and that you've successfully contoured the patent claims, at
> > least for the decom
On 10.8.2011 0:13, Ian Romanick wrote:
Two words: contributory infringement. The Mesa code would be doing
something that enables something else to infringe. No distro will ship
it because it makes them liable. Don't look for logic or reason or
sense in the legal system. You won't find it.
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On 08/09/2011 04:10 AM, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
> As for compression: the compressed format is basically "each 4x4 block is a
> 2-color optimum palette image". Similar schemes have existed way before S3TC
> (e.g. in some video codecs used by DOS games - s
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On 08/09/2011 02:29 AM, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 02:01:44AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
>> - Original Message -
>>> On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 05:49:09AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
- Original Message -
> The s
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On 08/07/2011 03:44 PM, Petr Sebor wrote:
> On 4.8.2011 12:19, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 12:47:47PM -0700, Ian Romanick wrote:
>>> On 08/03/2011 12:11 PM, Bryan Cain wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but why do hardware drivers nee
On 9 August 2011 23:45, Marek Olšák wrote:
> texture, so we'd be noncompliant. Noncompliant is probably better than
> not working at all. So what do you guys think?
>
In the general case, no. A missing extension is something applications
can deal with if they care to, a broken extension isn't.
___
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> I don't have time for a longer reply now, but I do think your S2TC work is
> interesting, and that you've successfully contoured the patent claims, at
> least for the decompression, as I didn't look at the compression bits.
>
> But, there wa
On Tue, 2011-08-09 at 19:49 +0200, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 10:46:12AM -0700, Corbin Simpson wrote:
> > I should point out something not immediately obvious about S3TC: It's
> > believed that the patents cover any complete pipeline which
> > decompresses S3TC textures accordin
On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 10:46:12AM -0700, Corbin Simpson wrote:
> I should point out something not immediately obvious about S3TC: It's
> believed that the patents cover any complete pipeline which
> decompresses S3TC textures according to the S3TC algorithm. It's
> stupidly broad that way.
Sure i
I should point out something not immediately obvious about S3TC: It's
believed that the patents cover any complete pipeline which
decompresses S3TC textures according to the S3TC algorithm. It's
stupidly broad that way.
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Alan Coopersmith
wrote:
> On 08/09/11 02:29,
On 08/09/11 02:29, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
> Is US patent law really that retarded?
US patent law shares a common feature with most other patent systems:
No matter how carefully you word the patent or read the patent, the
only way to really find out whether something is a patent violation
is to go to
On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 03:16:34PM +0200, Philipp Klaus Krause wrote:
> Am 09.08.2011 13:10, schrieb Rudolf Polzer:
> > As for compression: the compressed format is basically "each 4x4 block is a
> > 2-color optimum palette image". Similar schemes have existed way before S3TC
> > […]
>
> See Beers
Am 09.08.2011 13:10, schrieb Rudolf Polzer:
> As for compression: the compressed format is basically "each 4x4 block is a
> 2-color optimum palette image". Similar schemes have existed way before S3TC
> […]
See Beers et al., "Rendering from compressed textures" in the SIGGRAPH
'96 proceedings for
On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 03:25:05AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> - Original Message -
> > I was trying to help the Linux communtiy, but apparently I failed.
> >
> > Looks like all this work I did was for nothing. Nothing is
> > appreciated, all is
> > "Not Invented Here".
> >
> > How else s
- Original Message -
> On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 02:01:44AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> > - Original Message -
> > > On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 05:49:09AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> > > > - Original Message -
> > > > > The suggestion however is to include a S2TC-like method wi
On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 02:01:44AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> - Original Message -
> > On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 05:49:09AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> > > - Original Message -
> > > > The suggestion however is to include a S2TC-like method with
> > > > Mesa, to
> > > > basically
>
- Original Message -
> On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 05:49:09AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> > - Original Message -
> > > The suggestion however is to include a S2TC-like method with
> > > Mesa, to
> > > basically
> > > make sure that in the long run NO distro has no support for S3TC
> >
On Die, 2011-08-09 at 06:42 +0200, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 02:03:59PM -0700, Corbin Simpson wrote:
> > Unless I missed something, we (the Mesa developers) do not endorse using
> > S3TC at all, anywhere in the stack, as long as it is patented.
>
> Here, you reference the "fu
On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 02:03:59PM -0700, Corbin Simpson wrote:
> Unless I missed something, we (the Mesa developers) do not endorse using
> S3TC at all, anywhere in the stack, as long as it is patented.
Here, you reference the "full" S3TC implementation:
http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/S3TC
All
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
> Without that, it'll be hard for me to get distros interested in it.
I'll make sure it's available in Gentoo very soon.
Matt
___
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mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org
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Unless I missed something, we (the Mesa developers) do not endorse using
S3TC at all, anywhere in the stack, as long as it is patented.
Have you actually talked to any distros?
This is my last post; we aren't getting anywhere.
Sending from a mobile, pardon my terseness. ~ C.
On Aug 8, 2011 1:02
On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 12:52:14PM -0700, Corbin Simpson wrote:
[force_s3tc_enable]
> It is not transparent if applications must opt into using it.
Applications must also opt into using the regular S3TC extension, by using the
appropriate texture format constant. No difference there, just a differ
It is not transparent if applications must opt into using it.
Please go ask distributions to pick this up; we aren't going to do it
without the legal issues being cleared up.
Sending from a mobile, pardon my terseness. ~ C.
On Aug 8, 2011 6:12 AM, "Rudolf Polzer" wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at
Sending from a mobile, pardon my terseness. ~ C.
On Aug 8, 2011 6:12 AM, "Rudolf Polzer" wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 05:49:09AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
>> - Original Message -
>> > The suggestion however is to include a S2TC-like method with Mesa, to
>> > basically
>> > make sure t
On 08/08/11 00:58, Egon Ashrafinia wrote:
> I mean, the main problem is that this is a Software Patent, correct? Always
> as I
> know, only in the United States of America, correct?
Incorrect. There's also quite a few other countries which allow software
patents directly, such as Japan, South K
On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 05:49:09AM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
> - Original Message -
> > The suggestion however is to include a S2TC-like method with Mesa, to
> > basically
> > make sure that in the long run NO distro has no support for S3TC
> > uploading,
> > without requiring an extra dec
- Original Message -
> On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 01:01:14AM -0700, Corbin Simpson wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Egon Ashrafinia
> > wrote:
> > > As I said in IRC ~ 2 Weeks ago, it is very Important that we
> > > support S3TC!
> > >
> > > I mean, the main problem is that this is
On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 01:01:14AM -0700, Corbin Simpson wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Egon Ashrafinia
> wrote:
> > As I said in IRC ~ 2 Weeks ago, it is very Important that we support S3TC!
> >
> > I mean, the main problem is that this is a Software Patent, correct? Always
> > as I kn
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Egon Ashrafinia
wrote:
> As I said in IRC ~ 2 Weeks ago, it is very Important that we support S3TC!
>
> I mean, the main problem is that this is a Software Patent, correct? Always
> as I know, only in the United States of America, correct?
>
> If so, in my opinoin
As I said in IRC ~ 2 Weeks ago, it is very Important that we support S3TC!
I mean, the main problem is that this is a Software Patent, correct? Always
as I know, only in the United States of America, correct?
If so, in my opinoin the solution is simple. Let's do it the same as we did
with --textu
On Sun, Aug 07, 2011 at 06:48:39PM -0700, Jose Fonseca wrote:
>
>
> - Original Message -
> > On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 12:47:47PM -0700, Ian Romanick wrote:
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > On 08/03/2011 12:11 PM, Bryan Cain wrote:
> > > > On 08/03/2011
- Original Message -
> On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 12:47:47PM -0700, Ian Romanick wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On 08/03/2011 12:11 PM, Bryan Cain wrote:
> > > On 08/03/2011 01:58 PM, Ian Romanick wrote:
> > >> I think this solves the issue for the comp
On 4.8.2011 12:19, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 12:47:47PM -0700, Ian Romanick wrote:
On 08/03/2011 12:11 PM, Bryan Cain wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but why do hardware drivers need a decompressor?
To quote the EXT_texture_compression_s3tc spec:
WARNING: Vendors able to
On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 12:47:47PM -0700, Ian Romanick wrote:
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>
> On 08/03/2011 12:11 PM, Bryan Cain wrote:
> > On 08/03/2011 01:58 PM, Ian Romanick wrote:
> >> I think this solves the issue for the compressor and for the software
> >> decompressor
On 08/03/2011 12:47 PM, Ian Romanick wrote:
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On 08/03/2011 12:11 PM, Bryan Cain wrote:
On 08/03/2011 01:58 PM, Ian Romanick wrote:
I think this solves the issue for the compressor and for the software
decompressor. I don't think this solves the pro
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On 08/03/2011 12:11 PM, Bryan Cain wrote:
> On 08/03/2011 01:58 PM, Ian Romanick wrote:
>> I think this solves the issue for the compressor and for the software
>> decompressor. I don't think this solves the problem for the
>> decompressor for hardwar
On 08/03/2011 01:58 PM, Ian Romanick wrote:
> On 08/03/2011 08:04 AM, Brian Paul wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Rudolf Polzer
> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I developed, together with Maik Merten, a replacement for S3TC with the
> >> following properties:
> >>
> >> - does not use any "in
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On 08/03/2011 08:04 AM, Brian Paul wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I developed, together with Maik Merten, a replacement for S3TC with the
>> following properties:
>>
>> - does not use any "interesting" algo
On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Rudolf Polzer wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I developed, together with Maik Merten, a replacement for S3TC with the
> following properties:
>
> - does not use any "interesting" algorithms (no color ramps, each 4x4 block is
> just a 2 colors palette - basically, this is Color C
Hi,
I developed, together with Maik Merten, a replacement for S3TC with the
following properties:
- does not use any "interesting" algorithms (no color ramps, each 4x4 block is
just a 2 colors palette - basically, this is Color Cell Compression from
August 1986)
- is perfectly decodable by an
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