Re: [meteorite-list] Heidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates
Hi E.P. After my last mail you started 4 mails mentioning my name. you wrote: Generally, Andi, I have found that the more intelligent people are, the better they like my book. you wrote also: Now moving over to other wastes of band space, perhaps Andi's comments are motivated by something else, and my guess its my scepticism of global warming. and you wrote: There is something else that's eating andi, and I wish to hell he'd say it, and save me the typing. That's funny, who is the one who's eaten by something? Draw your own conclusion. Sterling wrote: if even a tenth of his suggested indications of impact were to prove out under future analysis, it would be a major contribution. So, E.P. this is what I wanted to hear from you. Instead you are arguing with time stretch and soften terms. After that not worked you are biting like a dog with the back at the wall. I have said what I want, you have also , for me the discussion is in a dead end. I wanted to read a book over scientific arguments, not science fiction this is the reason why I still don't like your book, how stupid you call me for this , is in your hands and just shows how you argue For the lovers of science fiction I recommend Douglas Adams. 42 Andi -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von E.P. Grondine Gesendet: Montag, 19. November 2007 19:01 An: Andreas Gren; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Heidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates Hi Andy - Every field of science is under permanent discussion, but it also exist a point of agreement what is actual. If that were so for the fields of physical anthropology and archaeology, it would have been much easier to write my book. Yes, they didn't fall from sky, but its obviously you try to stretch the time how you need it. For the last hundred years both Russia and China have been in chaos, and thus the data recovered from those areas has been limited. And I'm not interesting to spread your ideas about everywhere, anytime an impact, which are built on so thin ice like your Homo heidelbergensis split in two theory. Generally, Andi, I have found that the more intelligent people are, the better they like my book. Draw your own conclusion. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD - Ebay Auctions ending
Good Morning All I have auctions ending tonight, ebay ID catchafallingstar.com. Most started at just at 99 Cents!!! http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZcatchafallingstar.com Highlights include Amgala, Bassikounou, Planetaries and a Beautiful FULL slice of Imilac. We still have some Campo del Cielo. NWA 869, Moon and Mars coins available at: http://www.meteoritecoins.com/ Thanks for looking Jim Strope 421 Fourth Street Glen Dale, WV 26038 http://www.catchafallingstar.com __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Dueling Keyboards ....was Heidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates
Well... Well My take... This looks like a duel So duelly speaking, Andi, it was you who fired the first volley with your scathing attack with what you later renounced as your mistakes. Were this a duel you fired into Ed's back before even throwing down the glove. Ed, you've already been chastised for your blasphemy and offending the creationists. Lucky for you they weren't the kind of zealots that put out the fatwa on Simon Rustie. The only consolation is your stoning would have been with sky rocks. You've exchanged volleys now 5 or 6 times and now you've gone back to the swords since you've run out of ammunition. The only damage you can wreck upon each other is the indignity of insult--Like the rest of us really care other than the entertainment value of watching zingers whiz by our heads and the puffing and huffing after each go-round. OK sure Ed is an author and a critical review of his book is fair--a whiny criticizing of his work over what looks like buyers remorse is not fair. Frankly, it has become a personal attack and the gentleman in you should either kiss and make up or choose other weapons so long as it is taken to the meteorite noise list which is set up to handle duels. Gentlemen, I(We) Thank You for your attention in this matter. Eman __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NO MORE NON METEORITICS
Good morning list.I woke up this morning and I had 10 emails from this list.The only one that had any mention of meteorites was Jim stropes ad for his ebay auctions.Religion,man and his impacts,telling people they are stupid,all non meteorites.Religion is a very private matter and has nothing to do about this list.Like Jason utas said,in a way,ART is like god to us.He runs this list and at his whim he can make people disappear.We really need to stop all this non meteorite stuff.If someone wants to promote a book,do it somewhere else.Not on a list that is meant for meteorites.I enjoy reading about the great posts when they are about our great Hobie.I really wish we could only talk about meteorites and related items.I leave religion for Sundays and other times of the year when need be.I guess we can only preach about this so much.Many times it has been done,but it just seems to keep going on and on and on.Our greatest meteorite show is just around the corner,TUCSON,and I am looking to hear more about what is coming up.Like who is coming,what will be there,what the auctions are doing,etc.And I am sure after seeing great pics of Munich,that everyone there had a great time and some of you will be in Tucson and will like meteorites to be the main and only topic.Not religion.Lets please get stay on the yellow brick road and keep this great forum to what art put it together for.METEORITES!Everyone loves to promote what ever it is they like to promote.Let s promote what we love here.Stones from space.There is a time and place for everything.Here and here only,it is meteorites.When you only have 1 post pertaining to meteorites,and the rest are B. S.,there is a time that something has to be done.This will be the only post I will make on this.I seem to remember making a few more like it in the past.Just seeing all this endless crap everyday just brings me down.Have a great day all. Steve R.Arnold,chicago,Ill,Usa!! The Asteroid Belt! Chicagometeorites.net Collecting Meteorites since 06/19/1999 Ebay I.D. Illinoismeteorites Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Giveaway Prices - Auctions Ending - AD
Dear List Members, Tomorrow I have many excellent eBay auctions ending at giveaway values, many still at just 99 cents, including some angrite and even planetary specimens. I only have 62 auctions currently running so it will be easy to find that special present for yourself. They can all be seen under my seller name, NaturesVault, or by clicking here: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault This is a great chance to pick up a nice rarity for pennies on the dollar!! Best regards and Thank You for bidding and/or looking! Greg P.S. Happy Thanksgiving!! Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
Dear List I have a question which has been vexing me for some years. I was introduced to a method of collection of micrometeorites by Larry Megahan some years ago, which consisted of collecting rainwater and then wrapping a powerful rare Earth magnet in Saran (TM)wrap. Placing the Saran wrap on a glass plate, and examining it under the microscope, one could see many ferromagnetic particles. Some were rounded and ablated and it was a strong guess that these were micrometeorites. I have had some students try this project and indeed some of the particles are microspheroids of ablated iron, similar to so called Brownlee particles colected in the stratosphere. But I have reason to be suspicious, especially if the collection is near a former industrial or mining site. MY QUESTION IS, has this method, widely circulated in presecondary teaching circles, ever been critically evaluated by electron microprobe analysis, X-Ray fluorescence or some such? And at what size level does a meteorite cease to be of interest? It would naively seem, that although a very very very tiny percentage of meteorites are lunars or Martians, if a way to rapidly identify micrometeorites can be done, a lot more information on Mars and the Moon could be obtained, simply because there are so many micrometeorites. This would include collection in the stratosphere as Brownlee did, maybe piggybacked on surveillance aircraft. But one question at a time. Francis Graham Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] FW: Launching Holiday Sales, Auctions Ending Today, 100 Auctions Starting tomorrow! SALES SALES SALES, Over 500 Meteorites to check out, Many New Ones!
From: michael cottingham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:46 AM To: 'michael cottingham' Subject: AD: Launching Holiday Sales, Auctions Ending Today, 100 Auctions Starting tomorrow! SALES SALES SALES, Over 500 Meteorites to check out, Many New Ones! Hello, I have many great meteorite surprises that will be for sale over the next 30 days! AUCTIONS Ending Today- Check out the highlights. Also 100 Auctions starting tomorrow, well worth over $10,000.00, plus big sale over the weekend, keep checking back, I will be listing items all the time. I have nearly 30 new meteorites with classifications coming in daily New Stuff, Cool stuff, and Super Cheap Stuff. See all here: http://stores.ebay.com/Voyage-Botanica-Natural-History or here: http://stores.ebay.com/VOYAGE-BOTANICA-NATURAL-HISTORY_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfti dZ2QQsclZ2QQtZkm Too many too list, but here are some highlights! Auctions Ending Today: Well received and Beautiful LL5, large slice 42.74 gram, still at 0.99 cents! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173741160 Eye enchanting slice of GUJBA, Super Rare Fall! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173741178 A fine specimen of The ESTHERVILLE, Mesosiderite Fall From Iowa, 16.59 grams! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173744851 A 1312 gram Lot of NWA 4300, H5 * Over 1 kilo and still at 0.99 cents, CRAZY DEAL FOR SOMEONE! Worth over $500.00! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173744883 Possibly the best group of Carancas specimens for sale at one time! No worries if it does not sell---I keep! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173744896 Fine, Fine, Fine- Breathtaking Slice of an CV3, Large too! NWA 3118, 16 gram http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173741141 Nice Pallasite specimen NWA 4482, 7.33 gram. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173682469 Super Rare MULGA South, Australia, still at 0.99 cents! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173709153 Rare Achondrite, NWA 2635, 2.25 gram, Getting to my last slices! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173709191 Getting down to my last Cali, Colombia specimens, check this one out! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173741150 Witnessed Fall from JILIN, China, nice 8.41 gram slice http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173741166 A 35 gram slice of Vyatka, Russia, nice brecciation. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173744844 Witnessed Fall from Brazil, Campos Sales, 4.22 gram http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173744863 A beautiful 8 gram slice of a well loved Howardite! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173744872 and many, many more Thanks and Best Wishes Michael Cottingham __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] PLATO PUTORANO like MESOSIDERITE METEORITE
Hi, I've been seeing a lot of this Plato Putorano material being sold on e-bay, some ads listed as actual Meteorite and also as being LIKE Mesosiderite Meteorite. What is this Plato Puturano material anyway. Thanks, Ron __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Dueling Keyboards ....wasHeidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates
First, let me commiserate with Steve #2 if this gets him down. Man and Impact in the Americas is related to meteorites, though, and is competing with Rocks from Space for shelf space, is advertised frequently here, has even been sold in the Inn Suites in Tucson, so a balanced look under the hood on the list isn't unreasonable! Hi Eman, I have three questions for you: OK sure Ed is an author and a critical review of his book is fair-- over what looks like buyers remorse is not fair. (a moral line in the sand) (1) Were you there or are you intimately familiar with what was promised when the book was sold? ...a whiny criticizing of his work... (a negative characterization) (2) Have you read the book from cover to cover, or, are you refering to the late Friday night attack? * it was you who fired the first volley with your scathing attack (an allegation) (3) Could you kindly review if a prior post provoked the first shot or confirm it really materialized from the ether? Comments: For about $25 (?) spent almost a year ago, I disagree with you: NO buyer's remorse at all! Furthermore, I find it hard to characterize an attack as you have. (Scathing - yes, Attack - no). When buying a meteorite, we have a certain set of standards. When reading a peer-reviewed article or book, we have other standards. When buying any monumental self-edited book, we are buying a pig in a poke (This means we are buying blindly and based on recommendations, for those not familiar with the expression, it is a general expression where you might get either a gem or a dud. I am not implying the book is either). We know the reader felt severely defrauded by the book, and we know the reader screwed up in some of the criticism and then was man enough to admit it. And the author screwed up in some parts of the book and tried to come clean, too. I have the book for almost one year, received as a gift from a kind friend. Unfortunately, I still haven't read it. If I do find some time to go through it, I would feel qualified to have a public opinion on the content in this: duel. Your interpretation is strictly a moral argument on who is right and what the reader should do, have you noticed? :-) I suggest we let this one run its course by itself. The reader already moved on and had no wish to kiss the author. Have you ever been to Germany? OK, then you might have seen some fine distinctions between how the the two cultures hock their wares? *Ironic, as you have had berserker responses on ocassion, too, after being fed up by other listees whose posts annoy you. In this case, as scalding as the opinion may seem, nowhere do I see where the reader was not restricting his opinions to the merchandise. Unfortunately, in an emotional lapse of judgement, the author was not so careful. But no moral crusader came forth to explain to the author the meaning of the reader's post. For example, he offered a refund provided the book be donated to a library, yet it was clear to me the first 15 pages (30 sides) had been removed from the book for other uses...and a donation to a library furthermore would be an implicit approval of the book - which clearly was not acceptable to the reader. (Yes: Please donate the Boggy Sogbottom meteorite to the National Museum meteorite collection and then I will refund your money if you give me the donation receipt). We are talking about a library in Hamburg, not an Banana Republic tax write-off. I respect the difference of both duelers. Best wishes, and Good health, Doug - Original Message - From: Mr EMan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Andreas Gren [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'E.P. Grondine' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 6:16 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Dueling Keyboards wasHeidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates Well... Well My take... This looks like a duel So duelly speaking, Andi, it was you who fired the first volley with your scathing attack with what you later renounced as your mistakes. Were this a duel you fired into Ed's back before even throwing down the glove. Ed, you've already been chastised for your blasphemy and offending the creationists. Lucky for you they weren't the kind of zealots that put out the fatwa on Simon Rustie. The only consolation is your stoning would have been with sky rocks. You've exchanged volleys now 5 or 6 times and now you've gone back to the swords since you've run out of ammunition. The only damage you can wreck upon each other is the indignity of insult--Like the rest of us really care other than the entertainment value of watching zingers whiz by our heads and the puffing and huffing after each go-round. OK sure Ed is an author and a critical review of his book is fair--a whiny criticizing of his work over what looks like buyers remorse is not fair. Frankly, it has become a personal attack and the gentleman in you should either kiss
Re: [meteorite-list] Freedom of religion/1968 South Africa Fall (?)
On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:40:09 -0800, you wrote: At which point, our lord and savior Art (I don't wish to mock you, Art; for the purposes of this list, that's effectively what you are, metaphorically speaking) tends to intervene and ban the guilty offender. Hmmm. Our father, who ART in heaven! I think you are on to something! http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=our+father+who+art+in+heaven This list goes up a little higher than I thought. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] PLATO PUTORANO like MESOSIDERITE METEORITE
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:55:41 -0500, you wrote: Hi, I've been seeing a lot of this Plato Putorano material being sold on e-bay, some ads listed as actual Meteorite and also as being LIKE Mesosiderite Meteorite. What is this Plato Puturano material anyway. Looks like the auctions have a long description of them. But here's this, googled up: http://meteorman.org/Best_Mes.htm http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]q=putorano __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] PLATO PUTORANO like MESOSIDERITE METEORITE
Hi Ron, Plato Puturano, is native iron, which is rare on earth. Even the earth crust is 4% Fe, most is associated with other elements in minerals. There are just e few locations known where to find native iron. Putorano / Russia Disko island /Greenland Brühl near Kassel/ Germany Who knows more? Andi -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Ron Gesendet: Dienstag, 20. November 2007 15:56 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] PLATO PUTORANO like MESOSIDERITE METEORITE Hi, I've been seeing a lot of this Plato Putorano material being sold on e-bay, some ads listed as actual Meteorite and also as being LIKE Mesosiderite Meteorite. What is this Plato Puturano material anyway. Thanks, Ron __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] PLATO PUTORANO like MESOSIDERITE METEORITE
(native nickel-iron) also, Awaruite /New Zealand Josephinite/Oregon Best, ken Andreas Gren wrote: Hi Ron, Plato Puturano, is native iron, which is rare on earth. Even the earth crust is 4% Fe, most is associated with other elements in minerals. There are just e few locations known where to find native iron. Putorano / Russia Disko island /Greenland Brühl near Kassel/ Germany Who knows more? Andi -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Ron Gesendet: Dienstag, 20. November 2007 15:56 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] PLATO PUTORANO like MESOSIDERITE METEORITE Hi, I've been seeing a lot of this Plato Putorano material being sold on e-bay, some ads listed as actual Meteorite and also as being LIKE Mesosiderite Meteorite. What is this Plato Puturano material anyway. Thanks, Ron __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD, 60 meteorites ending on ebay in hours. ALL one cent
Check out these spectacular pieces ending on ebay on tonight, some nice goodies, many still at or near one cent! This sale includes rarities like Lance and Orgueil. Somce examples include these nice pieces, but be sure to see everything. There are more than 60 auctions, the links below are just a taste. See them all and pick up some great deals. Incredible flight-oriented Gao meteorite, with rollover rim and bubbles in the fusion crust. Truly one of a kind piece. http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ140179945526 One of the best oriented Sikhote-Alin buttons I have sold in years, hundreds of flow lines. A true Flying Saucer from space. http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ140179995607 HUGE 555 gram Gao stone. You don't see them this large very often. It is the largest I have for sale! http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ140179947456 Large Chinga slice, you don't see much of this around anymore! http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ170169852840 Mokoia, one of my last pieces. There is no more of this around folks, if you do not have it, you had better bid, the rest of the pieces I have are much smaller. http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ170169844355 See all available items at the links below, there are way too many to list here. http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll? viewUserPageuserid=meteoritehunters http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewUserPageuserid=meteorite-hunter Thanks Michael Farmer Happy Thanksgiving for all the Americans on the list. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
Dear Francis, I was thinking exactly the same angle already posted by Larry, so let me just comment on your question: And at what size level does a meteorite cease to be of interest? by offering the opinion: At the level it ceases to contain any information attributable to meteoroids, meteorites or their parent bodies. Since this will change with time and technology, the question may be time and resource dependent. However, your inquiry about whether any of these particles have been analyzed (or imo, capable of being analyzed at present), stands. It would seem to me, that a very good project for schools would be to organize a collection protocol for educators in the style of the superb International Monarch Butterfly tagging program (or also like SETI on home computers), to collect large amounts of this material, set up a factorial experimental design to test certain hypothesis and bulk sample differences, by appropriately submitting these for testing. I would imagine that this is an experiment that neither the ESA nor NASA have the resources nor mandate to do, yet could lead to profound insight on the nature of cometary particles on Earth and make a very good contribution to science by enthusiastic young scientsits to be. Or I darkly suspect, more likely an application of the scientific method to disprove a popularly held theory theory regarding most of the materials recovered in this way - either way, a great exercise for teaching meteorites and science in general with a problem, methodology, and a participative attitude. Surely there is some work on this out there, but sample size and scope restrictions make this an ideal educator's project looking only for someone like you to organize. Just need a partner in the scientific community willing to lead in the intrumental analyses and sample preparation. Best Wishes and Good Health, Doug - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater Hello Francis: I do not pretend to be an expert on this subject, but the simple answer to at least oneof your questions is that there is no indication that any of the micrometeorites (and thus what you might get in rainwater) is planetary or lunar. The ones collected in the upper atmosphere are either from asteroids or comets. It may be that some very small percentage is planetary/lunar, but these might be so rare as to be lost in the noise. Larry Lebofsky On Tue, November 20, 2007 7:31 am, Francis Graham wrote: Dear List I have a question which has been vexing me for some years. I was introduced to a method of collection of micrometeorites by Larry Megahan some years ago, which consisted of collecting rainwater and then wrapping a powerful rare Earth magnet in Saran (TM)wrap. Placing the Saran wrap on a glass plate, and examining it under the microscope, one could see many ferromagnetic particles. Some were rounded and ablated and it was a strong guess that these were micrometeorites. I have had some students try this project and indeed some of the particles are microspheroids of ablated iron, similar to so called Brownlee particles colected in the stratosphere. But I have reason to be suspicious, especially if the collection is near a former industrial or mining site. MY QUESTION IS, has this method, widely circulated in presecondary teaching circles, ever been critically evaluated by electron microprobe analysis, X-Ray fluorescence or some such? And at what size level does a meteorite cease to be of interest? It would naively seem, that although a very very very tiny percentage of meteorites are lunars or Martians, if a way to rapidly identify micrometeorites can be done, a lot more information on Mars and the Moon could be obtained, simply because there are so many micrometeorites. This would include collection in the stratosphere as Brownlee did, maybe piggybacked on surveillance aircraft. But one question at a time. Francis Graham _ ___ Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
Hi Francis- I've never seen anything that conclusively identified particles recovered in this way as being micrometeorites. It is nearly certain that the vast majority of such particles are not, however. Something I read recently found that microscopic melted iron particles are produced in copious volumes by all sorts of industrial processes, and these particles are wide spread. That said, I think the exercise of collecting and studying such particles remains an excellent science project for high school and middle school students. Undoubtedly there are micrometeorites, even if conclusively identifying them is difficult. We do this in the classroom, and have found a few odd particles over the years. The ones I would be most inclined to think are micrometeorites are, in fact, not magnetic at all. (We collect on filters, not magnets.) Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:31 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater Dear List I have a question which has been vexing me for some years. I was introduced to a method of collection of micrometeorites by Larry Megahan some years ago, which consisted of collecting rainwater and then wrapping a powerful rare Earth magnet in Saran (TM)wrap. Placing the Saran wrap on a glass plate, and examining it under the microscope, one could see many ferromagnetic particles. Some were rounded and ablated and it was a strong guess that these were micrometeorites. I have had some students try this project and indeed some of the particles are microspheroids of ablated iron, similar to so called Brownlee particles colected in the stratosphere. But I have reason to be suspicious, especially if the collection is near a former industrial or mining site. MY QUESTION IS, has this method, widely circulated in presecondary teaching circles, ever been critically evaluated by electron microprobe analysis, X-Ray fluorescence or some such? And at what size level does a meteorite cease to be of interest? It would naively seem, that although a very very very tiny percentage of meteorites are lunars or Martians, if a way to rapidly identify micrometeorites can be done, a lot more information on Mars and the Moon could be obtained, simply because there are so many micrometeorites. This would include collection in the stratosphere as Brownlee did, maybe piggybacked on surveillance aircraft. But one question at a time. Francis Graham __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
Dear Doug, Larry and List, Thanks for the response from you both and from Sr Gallo in Venezuela! Upon further reflection, I am not sure how much information can be gained from micrometeorite lunar dust grains...the problem is that you have only one or two mineral grains...maybe three. But what you lack in macroscopic petrological context, you might gain in microscopic studies involving isotopes, studies of polymorphic forms, and odd minerals (e.g. Hapkeite) etc. But then there is the whole problem of identification of lunar micrometeorites, not an easy one to solve, especially, as Larry says (and I agree) they are likely to be rare. H. I like your suggestion that this would be an interesting project to critically examine, in conjunction with an educational project. Francis Graham --- mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Francis, I was thinking exactly the same angle already posted by Larry, so let me just comment on your question: And at what size level does a meteorite cease to be of interest? by offering the opinion: At the level it ceases to contain any information attributable to meteoroids, meteorites or their parent bodies. Since this will change with time and technology, the question may be time and resource dependent. However, your inquiry about whether any of these particles have been analyzed (or imo, capable of being analyzed at present), stands. It would seem to me, that a very good project for schools would be to organize a collection protocol for educators in the style of the superb International Monarch Butterfly tagging program (or also like SETI on home computers), to collect large amounts of this material, set up a factorial experimental design to test certain hypothesis and bulk sample differences, by appropriately submitting these for testing. I would imagine that this is an experiment that neither the ESA nor NASA have the resources nor mandate to do, yet could lead to profound insight on the nature of cometary particles on Earth and make a very good contribution to science by enthusiastic young scientsits to be. Or I darkly suspect, more likely an application of the scientific method to disprove a popularly held theory theory regarding most of the materials recovered in this way - either way, a great exercise for teaching meteorites and science in general with a problem, methodology, and a participative attitude. Surely there is some work on this out there, but sample size and scope restrictions make this an ideal educator's project looking only for someone like you to organize. Just need a partner in the scientific community willing to lead in the intrumental analyses and sample preparation. Best Wishes and Good Health, Doug - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater Hello Francis: I do not pretend to be an expert on this subject, but the simple answer to at least oneof your questions is that there is no indication that any of the micrometeorites (and thus what you might get in rainwater) is planetary or lunar. The ones collected in the upper atmosphere are either from asteroids or comets. It may be that some very small percentage is planetary/lunar, but these might be so rare as to be lost in the noise. Larry Lebofsky On Tue, November 20, 2007 7:31 am, Francis Graham wrote: Dear List I have a question which has been vexing me for some years. I was introduced to a method of collection of micrometeorites by Larry Megahan some years ago, which consisted of collecting rainwater and then wrapping a powerful rare Earth magnet in Saran (TM)wrap. Placing the Saran wrap on a glass plate, and examining it under the microscope, one could see many ferromagnetic particles. Some were rounded and ablated and it was a strong guess that these were micrometeorites. I have had some students try this project and indeed some of the particles are microspheroids of ablated iron, similar to so called Brownlee particles colected in the stratosphere. But I have reason to be suspicious, especially if the collection is near a former industrial or mining site. MY QUESTION IS, has this method, widely circulated in presecondary teaching circles, ever been critically evaluated by electron microprobe analysis, X-Ray fluorescence or some such? And at what size level does a meteorite cease to be of interest? It would naively seem, that although a very very very tiny percentage of meteorites are lunars or Martians, if a way to rapidly identify micrometeorites can be done, a lot more information on Mars and the Moon could be obtained, simply because there are so many micrometeorites. This would include
Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
Hello Francis, Chris, Larry and other hip, enthusiastic educators or Listees, Thanks again for the interesting subject, and also to Chris who got a late but great reply in there... Francis' has hit upon a subject on classroom study of the micrometeorite question is really a way to get students close and personal with meteorites in the most delightful way - a memorable educational experience. I know everyone has special needs for their particular science class curriculum, but I wanted to add a P.S. with some links just suggesting you take a look at what has been done by Lepidopterists to stimulate scientific minds in North America in their field. The study of butterflies, skippers and moths is really not a popular subject in schools; Unfortunately, even keeping hard-core scientific groups related to it alive is sometimes a challenge. In a stark contrast, The Monarch Watch Program, between Canada, the U.S., and Mexico has proved to be an engine for young minds and is popular year after year; a very memorable experience for aspiring student biologists. Not to mention the appreciation and culture it leaves all participants for the subject matter. I'm very biased in applying this to your problem (in a scientific sense, of course) since my other love is as an amateur enthusiast of Lepidopterology, and have had personal contact with the leaders, but have no part in organizing, this remarkable success. Scientists alone needed help if they could ever draw any conclusions, and this was needed at a local level. Who would have thought 15 years later the program is stronger than ever, self-funded and still making news even in the local papers in Mexico, with young scientist delighting in the opportunity to be essential contributers to science and develop their scientific curiosity in biology by direct participation and contact with the natural sciences? Two thousand educational organizations are involved and it is estimated that 100,000 students annually have the joy of participation, doing science, and having exciting field expeditions. The thought that bulk analyses could be made of hypothesized meteoritic materials sampled over greatly varying geography but standard protocol seems to put statistics in our favor of separating the noise from the micrometeorites that form a portion of the fallout. OK, sorry for maybe going overboard with a second post - here are some pertinent links you are cordially invited to click: The classic: http://www.monarchwatch.org/tagmig/tag.htm More really interesting stuff IMO: http://www.monarchwatch.org/class/studproj/vector.htm http://www.monarchwatch.org/class/studproj/hiso.htm http://www.monarchwatch.org/class/studproj/mass.htm Best wishes and Great Health, Doug - Original Message - From: Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater Dear Doug, Larry and List, Thanks for the response from you both and from Sr Gallo in Venezuela! Upon further reflection, I am not sure how much information can be gained from micrometeorite lunar dust grains...the problem is that you have only one or two mineral grains...maybe three. But what you lack in macroscopic petrological context, you might gain in microscopic studies involving isotopes, studies of polymorphic forms, and odd minerals (e.g. Hapkeite) etc. But then there is the whole problem of identification of lunar micrometeorites, not an easy one to solve, especially, as Larry says (and I agree) they are likely to be rare. H. I like your suggestion that this would be an interesting project to critically examine, in conjunction with an educational project. Francis Graham --- mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Francis, I was thinking exactly the same angle already posted by Larry, so let me just comment on your question: And at what size level does a meteorite cease to be of interest? by offering the opinion: At the level it ceases to contain any information attributable to meteoroids, meteorites or their parent bodies. Since this will change with time and technology, the question may be time and resource dependent. However, your inquiry about whether any of these particles have been analyzed (or imo, capable of being analyzed at present), stands. It would seem to me, that a very good project for schools would be to organize a collection protocol for educators in the style of the superb International Monarch Butterfly tagging program (or also like SETI on home computers), to collect large amounts of this material, set up a factorial experimental design to test certain hypothesis and bulk sample differences, by appropriately submitting these for testing. I would imagine that this is an experiment that neither the ESA nor NASA have the resources nor mandate to do, yet could lead to profound insight on the nature of cometary particles on
[meteorite-list] AD-Introducing Cosmic Oddity (NWA 4294) and Auctions Ending-Few Hours
Dear List Members, I would like to introduce a cosmic oddity this week called NWA 4294, Although the Total Known Weight is listed at 84.2 grams, less than 36.2 grams will ever be available to private collectors. A 22 gram type sample was donated to science and cutting losses amounted to 26 grams leaving very little behind for private collections. Also, I have several outstanding auctions ending over the next hours. All of the auctions can be seen at this link: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZraremeteorites NWA 4294 Specimens: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=140181366262 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=140181367092 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=140181368263 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=140181368667 Main Mass: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=140181369993 Sold: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=140181367706 And don't forget to check out 108 other great items worth thousands with no reserve at this link: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZraremeteorites Thank you for looking and if you are bidding, good luck. Best Regards, Adam Hupe The Hupe Collection Team LunarRock IMCA 2185 [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
Doug, Francis, Chris and List, Some might remember my post on this subject a year or so ago. I addressed the possibility of actually getting real micrometeorites using similar techniques [magnets] I referred to a leading Astronomy popularizer, Jack Horkhimer. whose PBS late night shows always ended with the phrase and remember Keep Looking Up. At the time I was rudely awakened to reality by the List, and introduced to Noise But Francis, the joy of the experience for me and my school kids was real and has remained vivid today. So the persuit is enough to provide lasting entusiasm and lifelong interest in the subject. I have a question. Would the Noise material contain Ni? If the pollutants are from manufacturing in say China [not much in the USA anymore], would the processing of the material reduce the metal to Fe? If that were the case a simple test for Ni might be a step toward separatng vast amounts of noise from more potentially meteoric stuff. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater Hello Francis, Chris, Larry and other hip, enthusiastic educators or Listees, Thanks again for the interesting subject, and also to Chris who got a late but great reply in there... Francis' has hit upon a subject on classroom study of the micrometeorite question is really a way to get students close and personal with meteorites in the most delightful way - a memorable educational experience. I know everyone has special needs for their particular science class curriculum, but I wanted to add a P.S. with some links just suggesting you take a look at what has been done by Lepidopterists to stimulate scientific minds in North America in their field. The study of butterflies, skippers and moths is really not a popular subject in schools; Unfortunately, even keeping hard-core scientific groups related to it alive is sometimes a challenge. In a stark contrast, The Monarch Watch Program, between Canada, the U.S., and Mexico has proved to be an engine for young minds and is popular year after year; a very memorable experience for aspiring student biologists. Not to mention the appreciation and culture it leaves all participants for the subject matter. I'm very biased in applying this to your problem (in a scientific sense, of course) since my other love is as an amateur enthusiast of Lepidopterology, and have had personal contact with the leaders, but have no part in organizing, this remarkable success. Scientists alone needed help if they could ever draw any conclusions, and this was needed at a local level. Who would have thought 15 years later the program is stronger than ever, self-funded and still making news even in the local papers in Mexico, with young scientist delighting in the opportunity to be essential contributers to science and develop their scientific curiosity in biology by direct participation and contact with the natural sciences? Two thousand educational organizations are involved and it is estimated that 100,000 students annually have the joy of participation, doing science, and having exciting field expeditions. The thought that bulk analyses could be made of hypothesized meteoritic materials sampled over greatly varying geography but standard protocol seems to put statistics in our favor of separating the noise from the micrometeorites that form a portion of the fallout. OK, sorry for maybe going overboard with a second post - here are some pertinent links you are cordially invited to click: The classic: http://www.monarchwatch.org/tagmig/tag.htm More really interesting stuff IMO: http://www.monarchwatch.org/class/studproj/vector.htm http://www.monarchwatch.org/class/studproj/hiso.htm http://www.monarchwatch.org/class/studproj/mass.htm Best wishes and Great Health, Doug - Original Message - From: Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater Dear Doug, Larry and List, Thanks for the response from you both and from Sr Gallo in Venezuela! Upon further reflection, I am not sure how much information can be gained from micrometeorite lunar dust grains...the problem is that you have only one or two mineral grains...maybe three. But what you lack in macroscopic petrological context, you might gain in microscopic studies involving isotopes, studies of polymorphic forms, and odd minerals (e.g. Hapkeite) etc. But then there is the whole problem of identification of lunar micrometeorites, not an easy one to solve, especially, as Larry says (and I agree) they are likely to be rare. H. I like your suggestion that this would be an interesting project to critically examine, in conjunction with an educational
[meteorite-list] Mars Exploration Rover Update - November 19, 2007
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status.html#opportunity OPPORTUNITY UPDATE: Opportunity Peers Beneath Surface of Bathtub Ring - sol 1349-1354, Nov 19, 2007: Opportunity remains parked at the rock layer known as Smith -- part of the bathtub ring of rock layers beneath the edge of Victoria Crater -- at Duck Bay, the alcove where the rover entered the crater. During a test of the wire brush on the rock abrasion tool in a new mode of operation developed to work around recent encoder failures, Opportunity was mistakenly commanded to rotate the brush in the wrong direction. As a result, the brush appears to have been bent outward, perpendicular to the plane of rotation. The engineering team is currently testing strategies for mitigating the bent brush. The science team's top priority is to grind deeper into Smith and collect compositional data about the rock using the alpha-particle X-ray spectrometer. Opportunity is otherwise healthy, with solar array energy levels around 660 watt-hours and atmospheric dust measurements, known as Tau, at 0.9 (100 watt-hours is the amount of energy needed to light a 100-watt bulb for one hour). Sol-by-sol summary: In addition to morning uplinks directly from Earth via the rover's high-gain antenna, evening downlinks to Earth via the Odyssey orbiter at UHF frequencies, and standard panoramic-camera measurements of atmospheric opacity caused by dust, Opportunity completed the following activities: Sol 1349 (Nov. 9, 2007): Opportunity acquired a mosaic of images of Cape Verde from below and a mosaic of images of Smith using the panoramic camera. The rover relayed data to Odyssey during an overnight pass of the orbiter. Sol 1350: Opportunity completed diagnostic tests of the rock abrasion tool, measured argon in the Martian atmosphere using the alpha-particle X-ray spectrometer, and acquired full-color images, using all 13 filters of the panoramic camera, of the freshly brushed surface of Smith. Sol 1351: Opportunity acquired an image mosaic of Smith with the panoramic camera and relayed data to the Odyssey orbiter overnight. Sol 1352: Opportunity took images of Cabo Frio with the panoramic camera and ran diagnostic tests of the rock abrasion tool. The rover acquired images of the rock abrasion tool with the panoramic camera and placed the Moessbauer spectrometer on Smith in preparation for measuring the abundance and composition of iron-bearing minerals. Opportunity then acquired data using the Moessbauer spectrometer. The rover took additional images of Cabo Frio and Cape Verde -- both promontories of the scalloped rim of Victoria Crater -- with the panoramic camera. Opportunity also acquired a mosaic of images of the rock layer known as Lyell using the panoramic camera. Sol 1353: Opportunity continued to collect data from Smith with the Moessbauer spectrometer. Opportunity took panoramic-camera images of Cape Verde and Cabo Frio at different times of day and took spot images of the sky. Sol 1354 (Nov. 15, 2007): Opportunity completed diagnostic tests of the rock abrasion tool with the panoramic camera and placed the alpha-particle X-ray spectrometer on the external capture magnet. The rover tested UHF communications with the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter in preparation for next year's arrival of the Phoenix lander. Opportunity took panoramic-camera images of Cape Verde, acquired compositional data about dust particles on the capture magnet using the alpha-particle X-ray spectrometer, and took thumbnail images of the sky with the panoramic camera. Odometry: As of sol 1354 (Nov. 15, 2007), Opportunity's total odometry remained at 11,584.32 meters (7.2 miles). __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Predicting Apophis' Earth Encounters in 2029 and 2036
http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/apophis Predicting Apophis' Earth Encounters in 2029 and 2036 SUMMARY Researchers at NASA/JPL, Caltech, and Arecibo Observatory have released the results of radar observations of the potentially hazardous asteroid 99942 Apophis, along with an in-depth analysis of its motion. The research will affect how and when scientists measure, predict, or consider modifying the asteroid's motion. The paper http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/apophis/Apophis_CORRECTED_PREPRINT.pdf has been accepted for publication in the science journal Icarus http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.icarus.2007.09.012 and was presented at the AAS/DPS conference in Orlando, Florida in October of 2007. The Apophis study was led by Jon Giorgini, a senior analyst in JPL's Solar System Dynamics group and member of the radar team that observed Apophis. The analysis of Apophis previews situations likely to be encountered with NEAs yet to be discovered: a close approach that is not dangerous (like Apophis in 2029) nonetheless close enough to obscure the proximity and the danger of a later approach (like Apophis in 2036) by amplifying trajectory prediction uncertainties caused by difficult-to-observe physical characteristics interacting with solar radiation as well as other factors. BACKGROUND Upon its discovery in 2004, Apophis was briefly estimated to have a 2.7% chance of impacting the Earth in 2029. Additional measurements later showed there was no impact risk at that time from the 210-330 meter (690-1080 foot) diameter object, identified spectroscopically as an Sq type similar to LL chondritic meteorites. However, there will be a historically close approach to the Earth, estimated to be a 1 in 800 year event. [Arecibo Radar Image of Apophis] [Apophis Position Uncertainty] The Arecibo planetary radar telescope subsequently detected the asteroid at distances of 27-40 million km (17-25 million miles; 0.192-0.268 AU) in 2005 and 2006. Polarization ratios indicate Apophis appears to be smoother than most NEAs at 13-cm scales. Including the high precision radar measurements in a new orbit solution reduced the uncertainty in Apophis' predicted location in 2029 by 98%. While trajectory knowledge was substantially corrected by the Arecibo data, a small estimated chance of impact (less than 1 in 45,000 using standard dynamical models) remained for April 13, 2036. With Apophis probably too close to the Sun to be measured by optical telescopes until 2011, and too distant for useful radar measurement until 2013, the underlying physics of Apophis' motion were considered to better understand the hazard. RESULTS OF THE STUDY (1) Extending the Standard Dynamical Model Trajectory predictions for asteroids are normally based on a standard model of the solar system that includes the gravity of the Sun, Moon, other planets, and the three largest asteroids. However, additional factors can influence the predicted motion in ways that depend on rarely known details, such as the spin of the asteroid, its mass, the way it reflects and absorbs sun-light, radiates heat, and the gravitational pull of other asteroids passing nearby. These were examined, along with the effect of Earth's non-uniform gravity field during encounters, and limitations of the computer hardware performing the calculations. One would normally look for the influence of such factors as they gradually alter the trajectory over years. But, for Apophis, the changes remain small until amplified by passage through Earth's gravity field during the historically close approach in 2029. For example, the team found solar energy can cause between 20 and 740 km (12 and 460 miles) of position change over the next 22 years leading into the 2029 Earth encounter. But, only 7 years later, the effect on Apophis' predicted position can grow to between 520,000 and 30 million km (323,000 and 18.6 million miles; 0.0035-0.2 AU). This range makes it difficult to predict if Apophis will even have a close encounter with Earth in 2036 when the orbital paths intersect. [Present era through 2029] [Small factors 2029-2036] It was found that small uncertainties in the masses and positions of the planets and Sun can cause up to 23 Earth radii of prediction error for Apophis by 2036. The standard model of the Earth as a point mass can introduce up to 2.9 Earth radii of prediction error by 2036; at least the Earth's oblateness must be considered to predict an impact. The gravity of other asteroids can cause up to 2.3 Earth radii of prediction uncertainty for Apophis. By considering the range of Apophis' physical characteristics and these error sources, it was determined what observations prior to 2029 will most effectively reduce prediction uncertainties. Observing criteria were developed that, if satisfied, could permit eliminating the 2036 impact possibility without further physical characterization of Apophis. Such observations could reduce the need for a visit by an expensive spacecraft and reduce the
[meteorite-list] Fourth-grader Finds Meteorite in Florida?
http://www.ocala.com/article/20071118/NEWS/211180344/1368/googlesitemapnews Fourth-grader finds meteorite in yard BY KAREN VOYLES THE GAINESVILLE SUN (Florida) November 18, 2007 CEDAR KEY - A fourth-grader got a personal, hands-on lesson in meteorites earlier this week. Jeremiah Barnes, 10, was the featured speaker in science classes at Cedar Key School Friday, where he explained how he saw the meteorite fall into his yard at the beginning of the week. After seeing an object streak into the yard, Jeremiah told high school classes he initially thought one of his cousins had thrown something over the fence. After running over to the object and touching it, Jeremiah said he knew it was something extraordinary. It burned my finger so I ran in the house and got my sister, Jeremiah said. After seeing a blister rise on her brother's index finger, Angel Neese, a 14-year-old ninth-grader, doused the object with water from the garden house. Brother and sister watched in fascination as the water being poured into the shoebox-sized hole made by the object instantly began boiling. It kind of looked like lava from a volcano, but then I remembered what we learned in [eighth-grade] science class. And I kind of thought it would be a meteorite, Angel said. After the object cooled, Angel pointed out the metals in it to her little brother and explained what she remembered about objects superheating when they entered the Earth's atmosphere. Jeremiah presented the molten lump to high school science teacher Richard Whitman, who confirmed it was a meteorite and called the astronomy department at the University of Florida to try to figure out the odds of a fourth-grader in the state's smallest public school actually seeing a meteorite hit the ground. Not a real likely event, Whitman said. For anyone. Jeremiah said he plans to keep the meteorite and is cautious about who gets to handle his new treasure. After telling his story to the high school science students, Jeremiah answered questions, then walked from desk to desk allowing the teenagers to look and touch, but being careful to make sure it remained over a desk to reduce the risk of an accidental drop. I want to make sure I have it always, and it doesn't ever get broken, Jeremiah said. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Astronomers Say Moons Like Ours Are Uncommon
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2007-132 Astronomers Say Moons Like Ours Are Uncommon Jet Propulsion Laboraboty November 20, 2007 The next time you take a moonlit stroll, or admire a full, bright-white moon looming in the night sky, you might count yourself lucky. New observations from NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope suggest that moons like Earth's - that formed out of tremendous collisions - are uncommon in the universe, arising at most in only 5 to 10 percent of planetary systems. When a moon forms from a violent collision, dust should be blasted everywhere, said Nadya Gorlova of the University of Florida, Gainesville, lead author of a new study appearing Nov. 20 in the Astrophysical Journal. If there were lots of moons forming, we would have seen dust around lots of stars - but we didn't. It's hard to imagine Earth without a moon. Our familiar white orb has long been the subject of art, myth and poetry. Wolves howl at it, and humans have left footprints in its soil. Life itself might have evolved from the ocean to land thanks to tides induced by the moon's gravity. Scientists believe the moon arose about 30 to 50 million years after our sun was born, and after our rocky planets had begun to take shape. A body as big as Mars is thought to have smacked into our infant Earth, breaking off a piece of its mantle. Some of the resulting debris fell into orbit around Earth, eventually coalescing into the moon we see today. The other moons in our solar system either formed simultaneously with their planet or were captured by their planet's gravity. Gorlova and her colleagues looked for the dusty signs of similar smash-ups around 400 stars that are all about 30 million years old - roughly the age of our sun when Earth's moon formed. They found that only 1 out of the 400 stars is immersed in the telltale dust. Taking into consideration the amount of time the dust should stick around, and the age range at which moon-forming collisions can occur, the scientists then calculated the probability of a solar system making a moon like Earth's to be at most 5 to 10 percent. We don't know that the collision we witnessed around the one star is definitely going to produce a moon, so moon-forming events could be much less frequent than our calculation suggests, said George Rieke of the University of Arizona, Tucson, a co-author of the study. In addition, the observations tell astronomers that the planet-building process itself winds down by 30 million years after a star is born. Like our moon, rocky planets are built up through messy collisions that spray dust all around. Current thinking holds that this process lasts from about 10 to 50 million years after a star forms. The fact that Gorlova and her team found only 1 star out of 400 with collision-generated dust indicates that the 30-million-year-old stars in the study have, for the most part, finished making their planets. Astronomers have observed young stars with dust swirling around them for more than 20 years now, said Gorlova. But those stars are usually so young that their dust could be left over from the planet-formation process. The star we have found is older, at the same age our sun was when it had finished making planets and the Earth-moon system had just formed in a collision. For moon lovers, the news isn't all bad. For one thing, moons can form in different ways. And, even though the majority of rocky planets in the universe might not have moons like Earth's, astronomers believe there are billions of rocky planets out there. Five to 10 percent of billions is still a lot of moons. Other authors of the paper include: Zoltan Balog, James Muzerolle, Kate Y. L. Su and Erick T. Young of the University of Arizona, and Valentin D. Ivanov of the European Southern Observatory, Chile. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., manages the Spitzer Space Telescope mission for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. Science operations are conducted at the Spitzer Science Center at the California Institute of Technology, also in Pasadena. Caltech manages JPL for NASA. For more information about Spitzer, visit http://www.nasa.gov/spitzer and http://www.spitzer.caltech.edu/spitzer . Media contact: Whitney Clavin 818-354-4673 Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. 2007-132 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Hello Everyone
I was admitted to the hospital on November 9 for scheduled (this time) abdominal surgery. I had some complications which still have not resolved completely but I was discharged earlier today. Just wanted to check to make sure the list was still up and running. WOW, between my astronomy and meteorite interests I have 1228 new emails. Nice to see everyone again. Time to sleep -Walter Branch __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] 77 kilos chondrite , a monster
hello list members, this is a fantastic huge meteorite,77 kilos complete crusted and a little orionted , a killer is this fall on any house my god , i just can't move it from the floor. enjoy , http://www.flickr.com/photos/azizhabibi/sets/ all the best aziz habibi aziz box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco phone. 21235576145 fax.21235576170 _ Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Ad: 9 gram Glorieta pallasite ending now! My last one
Hi all, My very last Glorieta Pallasite is about to sell on Ebay. It is currently about $7 per gram. Take a look http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=220173478649ssPageName=STRK:MESE:ITih=012 Ruben Garcia Phoenix, Arizona http://www.mr-meteorite.com Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NO MORE NON METEORITICS
Steve, Your SPAM (see below) to the list is more offensive than just about any other posts I've seen on our List lately. If you're genuinely concerned about cleaning up the list and not wasting anyones time...quit posting your preaching messages. John Gwilliam At 06:10 AM 11/20/2007, steve arnold wrote: Good morning list.I woke up this morning and I had 10 emails from this list.The only one that had any mention of meteorites was Jim stropes ad for his ebay auctions.Religion,man and his impacts,telling people they are stupid,all non meteorites.Religion is a very private matter and has nothing to do about this list.Like Jason utas said,in a way,ART is like god to us.He runs this list and at his whim he can make people disappear.We really need to stop all this non meteorite stuff.If someone wants to promote a book,do it somewhere else.Not on a list that is meant for meteorites.I enjoy reading about the great posts when they are about our great Hobie.I really wish we could only talk about meteorites and related items.I leave religion for Sundays and other times of the year when need be.I guess we can only preach about this so much.Many times it has been done,but it just seems to keep going on and on and on.Our greatest meteorite show is just around the corner,TUCSON,and I am looking to hear more about what is coming up.Like who is coming,what will be there,what the auctions are doing,etc.And I am sure after seeing great pics of Munich,that everyone there had a great time and some of you will be in Tucson and will like meteorites to be the main and only topic.Not religion.Lets please get stay on the yellow brick road and keep this great forum to what art put it together for.METEORITES!Everyone loves to promote what ever it is they like to promote.Let s promote what we love here.Stones from space.There is a time and place for everything.Here and here only,it is meteorites.When you only have 1 post pertaining to meteorites,and the rest are B. S.,there is a time that something has to be done.This will be the only post I will make on this.I seem to remember making a few more like it in the past.Just seeing all this endless crap everyday just brings me down.Have a great day all. Steve R.Arnold,chicago,Ill,Usa!! The Asteroid Belt! Chicagometeorites.net Collecting Meteorites since 06/19/1999 Ebay I.D. Illinoismeteorites Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] I think someone owes me another apology
Hi all - Altogether I've been pretty restrained in my responses: http://www.uiowa.edu/~bioanth/homo.html Now perhaps someone here would prefer to write these folks, and tell them he is using their papers to wipe his arse, and tell them their work is science fiction? If that does not satisfy him, their are others he could write to. and yes, Christ, I am tired, and I'm sorry if that offends anyone E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
Jerry wrote: Would the Noise material contain Ni? If that were the case a simple test for Ni might be a step toward separatng vast amounts of noise from more potentially meteoric stuff. Hi Jerry, Maybe theoretically. Keeping in mind that Bessey specs would be reasonably bigger than most of these - I think you have an assumption built into your question: That micrometeorites are similar compositionally to most of the meteorites we get our hands on. I am not sure that this is the case, or even for that matter that a magnet is picking up the authentic micrometeorites. From what I've read, which is very, very minimal, many analyzed micrometeorites are most similar to carbonaceous chondrites and most specifically CI or CM chondrites (and this builds part of the case to link them to comets). The nickel content in these tiny particles would be around 1% or even less. If anything, then, I would think the best bet would be to run a refrigerator magnet over gutter recovered material and throw out anything that actually stuck to it. Then, use a super neodymium magnet and see which specs stick to it (and, unfortunately magnetizing what little metal is in it), and keep those as candidates and throw the rest away including the particles from the Moon. On the other hand, maybe some metal particles are concentrated residue from ablation, but those would be so altered, that a trace of Iridium might be there...I'd be interested in looking for traces of amino acids, too, for example. How you would sort the tiny sub-mg particle containing a not-uniformly distributed 3 micrograms of nickel without being an ace microprobeist going nuts on a beachful of grains, sounds difficult to me. And what I suggest, too, also relies on assumptions of composition which is circular logic. The stuff collected from blocks of old ice or other natural traps is pristine, though, and could serve as somewhat of a control. The trouble with it though, is that it is hard to know if it is representative of what is accumulating today. I am not sure an ocassional event like Tunguska, for example, wouldn't provide most of the particles, or say the year following Sikhote, when looking at these reserviors. On the other hand, there is no reason the majority of micrometeorites would be the same as meteorites in our collections, because as Larry hazarded a guess, they are probably cometary in origin, perhaps like some of the sparks seen at the end of the Leonids' trails, and there is no warranty that we have anything exactly like them in our collections. (Or, to Francis' line of thinking, reflect major events of Lunar dust kicked up at some point from a major cratering event there like the one reputed to have happened in the 1100's.) Everything seems to have problems, so this sounds to me like it is a good case for a lot of grunt work and a very huge experimental design covering sampling techniques, with special interest toward developing data in say, the week following major meteor showers. Maybe NASA and collaborating reseachers have this covered from planes and balloons, but I bet even their sampling techniques bias the results knowingly and in ways not even recognized by them? Whoever is analyzing the Stardust samples (Would that happen to be Brownlee? :-) ), and what instruments and techniques are being used, would probably laugh at this, but those're the thoughts from the peanut gallery. Best wishes and Great Health, Doug - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater Doug, Francis, Chris and List, Some might remember my post on this subject a year or so ago. I addressed the possibility of actually getting real micrometeorites using similar techniques [magnets] I referred to a leading Astronomy popularizer, Jack Horkhimer. whose PBS late night shows always ended with the phrase and remember Keep Looking Up. At the time I was rudely awakened to reality by the List, and introduced to Noise But Francis, the joy of the experience for me and my school kids was real and has remained vivid today. So the persuit is enough to provide lasting entusiasm and lifelong interest in the subject. I have a question. Would the Noise material contain Ni? If the pollutants are from manufacturing in say China [not much in the USA anymore], would the processing of the material reduce the metal to Fe? If that were the case a simple test for Ni might be a step toward separatng vast amounts of noise from more potentially meteoric stuff. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
[meteorite-list] AD: AUCTIONS ENDING IN A FEW MINUTES
From: michael cottingham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:46 AM To: 'michael cottingham' Subject: AD: Launching Holiday Sales, Auctions Ending Today, 100 Auctions Starting tomorrow! SALES SALES SALES, Over 500 Meteorites to check out, Many New Ones! Hello, I have many great meteorite surprises that will be for sale over the next 30 days! AUCTIONS Ending Today- Check out the highlights. Also 100 Auctions starting tomorrow, well worth over $10,000.00, plus big sale over the weekend, keep checking back, I will be listing items all the time. I have nearly 30 new meteorites with classifications coming in daily New Stuff, Cool stuff, and Super Cheap Stuff. See all here: http://stores.ebay.com/Voyage-Botanica-Natural-History or here: http://stores.ebay.com/VOYAGE-BOTANICA-NATURAL-HISTORY_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfti dZ2QQsclZ2QQtZkm Too many too list, but here are some highlights! Auctions Ending Today: Well received and Beautiful LL5, large slice 42.74 gram, still at 0.99 cents! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173741160 Eye enchanting slice of GUJBA, Super Rare Fall! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173741178 A fine specimen of The ESTHERVILLE, Mesosiderite Fall From Iowa, 16.59 grams! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173744851 A 1312 gram Lot of NWA 4300, H5 * Over 1 kilo and still at 0.99 cents, CRAZY DEAL FOR SOMEONE! Worth over $500.00! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173744883 Possibly the best group of Carancas specimens for sale at one time! No worries if it does not sell---I keep! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173744896 Fine, Fine, Fine- Breathtaking Slice of an CV3, Large too! NWA 3118, 16 gram http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173741141 Nice Pallasite specimen NWA 4482, 7.33 gram. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173682469 Super Rare MULGA South, Australia, still at 0.99 cents! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173709153 Rare Achondrite, NWA 2635, 2.25 gram, Getting to my last slices! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173709191 Getting down to my last Cali, Colombia specimens, check this one out! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173741150 Witnessed Fall from JILIN, China, nice 8.41 gram slice http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173741166 A 35 gram slice of Vyatka, Russia, nice brecciation. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173744844 Witnessed Fall from Brazil, Campos Sales, 4.22 gram http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173744863 A beautiful 8 gram slice of a well loved Howardite! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemrd=1item=200173744872 and many, many more Thanks and Best Wishes Michael Cottingham __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Dueling Keyboards....wasHeidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates
Dear Doug, and Keyboard Krowd, I have to tell you, Doug, that I find your very well- reasoned and logical defense that a reader who doesn't like or does not agree with a book is morally and legally entitled to represent himself to the author and demand the return of his purchase price to be... a really scary idea! I have this vision of a distraught William Shakespeare in the front room of his house in Stratford-upon-Avon, surrounded by boxes and boxes... He's complaining, The basement is full; the attic is full; all the spare rooms... I got no place to put'em! He waves at the mess, It's mostly King Lear; nobody likes that ending. But I get all kinds of complaints. You wouldn't believe what they complain about; I had one jerk return Romeo and Juliet because the print was too small! Romeo and Juliet... Dejectedly, he pours another shot of Bristol Rum, And I'm going broke. Hey! I didn't make the full price of any book! What? You think the printer worked for nothing? The binder? You think that good linen paper is free? I tell ya... They're driving me ing crazy! Yeah, that authorship is a Risky Business. The notion of approval or agreement as a requisite for actually paying for a book is slippery. Just how much do you have to like or agree with it for it to be worth the full price? If you think it's pretty good but you have a few quibbles, can you write the author and ask for 50 cents back? A quarter? Does it stop with books? If you disagree with your newspaper's editorial, can you withhold that day's cost from the subscription? Did you ever stop at the box office after a stinker of a movie and demand your money back? Maybe there's a reason they give broadcast TV away... I am also curious as to whether Andi has gone through ALL the books in his house and re-assured himself that he agrees absolutely, up to the value of the full purchase price, with each and every one, agrees enough to have not have any money coming back from their authors, or if he's only made that evaluation about this one book? 100% approval, 100% satisfaction with all the other books he's ever bought? Or, maybe he's sent many other books back to their authors with a demand for a refund? If so, what were the results? I'm thinking that they way out of this dilemma is to have a page-long universal product disclaimer to be included in every book. You know the kind that are usually found on every other product we buy except books! Something like (but longer than) this: No warranty, express nor implied, is provided with this book. Batteries not included. Some assembly is required. Not all items provided are necessarily identical to those pictured; style, color, and content may vary. Some settling may occur. Discoloration is normal. If book is defective, do not return to point of purchase. All rights reserved. Made in China. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mr EMan [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Andreas Gren [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'E.P. Grondine' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Dueling KeyboardswasHeidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates First, let me commiserate with Steve #2 if this gets him down. Man and Impact in the Americas is related to meteorites, though, and is competing with Rocks from Space for shelf space, is advertised frequently here, has even been sold in the Inn Suites in Tucson, so a balanced look under the hood on the list isn't unreasonable! Hi Eman, I have three questions for you: OK sure Ed is an author and a critical review of his book is fair-- over what looks like buyers remorse is not fair. (a moral line in the sand) (1) Were you there or are you intimately familiar with what was promised when the book was sold? ...a whiny criticizing of his work... (a negative characterization) (2) Have you read the book from cover to cover, or, are you refering to the late Friday night attack? * it was you who fired the first volley with your scathing attack (an allegation) (3) Could you kindly review if a prior post provoked the first shot or confirm it really materialized from the ether? Comments: For about $25 (?) spent almost a year ago, I disagree with you: NO buyer's remorse at all! Furthermore, I find it hard to characterize an attack as you have. (Scathing - yes, Attack - no). When buying a meteorite, we have a certain set of standards. When reading a peer-reviewed article or book, we have other standards. When buying any monumental self-edited book, we are buying a pig in a poke (This means we are buying blindly and based on recommendations, for those not familiar with the expression, it is a general expression where you might get either a gem or a dud. I am not implying the book is either). We know the reader felt severely defrauded by the book, and we know
Re: [meteorite-list] Leonids (was Holmes Swallows...)
last look at Holmes, look up in its direction and whisper, Encore! Encore! Hi Sterling, Yes, an encore would be nice! I'm waving a lit cigarette lighter (or is it a cell phone screen nowadays for concert go-ers today)! Also, did I mention that your quoting of Dylan Thomas was quite moving, though II see his works with infinite longing and magnetism, instead of through his bottles of liquor, like you... As you say it is a big universe out there... (even though, sometimes in [my own] ignorance, it doesn't seem quite big enough). Really sorry to hear about the clouds in your skies, and thanks for being kind in your comments on my Leonid post which I hope may have been something of a consolation. It is expensive and difficult to make those trips so far away from light contamination, and clear skies unfortunately are anything but a given. Speaking of my own ignorance, let me get defensive saying I was tired when I was writing that post, and made these three errors which you kindly did not draw to the list's attention in the spirit of lively discussion, though I think I should correct them here, whether we are catching up one rainy day at the Gloucester Coffee House, or preparing a manuscript for inclusion in Nature... (1) I mentioned Comet SWIFT-Tuttle was the parent body of the Leonids, that comet is the parent of the Perseids. Leonids are TEMPEL-Tuttle. Strike 1. (2) I mentioned the leading edge of the coma being rounded and the trailing edge of the coma (Mirphak side) irregular and vaporously and wispily disappearing. I think I got that backwards, but I'm still to tired to check. It was a morning observation closer to comet set, and my other observations were evening close to comet rises. Strike 2. (3) I used the word fireball liberally, when in fact, only four meteors were bona-fide fireballs, according to AMS convention: near equal or greater than Venus' brightness. And sometime way back, I believe Chris and maybe even I also mentioned that the arbitrary definition of fireball needs to be yea big. In my defense on this one, with a sky in which I could see better than +6.8 magnitude things with normal glasses, a brilliant -1 magnitude meteor was brighter than the way I see Venus normally. The eye, once dark adapted, doesn't really relate to absolute magnitudes, but rather relative magnitudes. Can you imagine Venus washing out half of the sky and causing the casting of shadows - that was the situation. So while I have been very unscientific in that sense, if you had seen them, especially with the frequent splitting at the ends of visible flight like sparklers (Bengala lights), you might be tempted call that comment safe and let it slide. Ball 1. Best wishes and Great health, Doug - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED]; dmouat [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Leonids (was Holmes Swallows...) Hi, Doug, Great description of the Leonids... As always, I saw clouds. See it over the next couple of days... if you can. In another week it won't be visible Holmes was very dim tonight despite a clear-ish sky. During its discovery outburst (which was the only outburst until this year's spectacular), Holmes faded away, then 60 days later blazed out again as brightly as at first, so after your last look at Holmes, look up in its direction and whisper, Encore! Encore! Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: dmouat [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 7:07 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Leonids (was Holmes Swallows...) Dear Listees, Three weeks ago I posted our observational results for the viewing of Comet Holmes (currently the largest member of the Solar System), and the Leonids meteor shower peak November 17/18 gave motivation to hike back to the same site and view the comet with the same binoculars: A 25X100mm astronomy pair and a16X50mm pair typical of Walmart bought for US $60. So, let me make a few comments of potential interest to meteorite people on what we saw in the Leonids, and then give a few impressions of the comet and how much longer this will be spectacular for most observers. Leonids: The night began with a half-Moon, but one wouldn't have known, as upon arrival the entire region was blanketed with various degrees from disasterous to unthinkable swarths of angry clouds. Every minute, the desert and sky would become brilliantly illuminated by multiple meteoric flashes - however, they were just amazing lightening bolts that cast all kinds of eerie shadows and blinded ones night vision in the pitch darkness. Hurredly we went to sleep in the tent within the tent, a construction for just such ocassions
Re: [meteorite-list] Dueling Keyboards....wasHeidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates
a reader who doesn't like or does not agree with a book is morally and legally entitled to represent himself to the author and demand the return of his purchase price to be... a really scary idea Hey Sterling, Why not? We live in a very litigious society... It's a free world! Everyone has the right to complain. Happens every day on the list. Every movie has a critic who says get your money back, don't see it. I don't know of producers responding, ok, if you donate our movie to the Hollywood Hall of Fame and send me a receipt...nothing moral or immoral about it, because it ain't binding, and the axe is double bladed... Nothing personal here, either. My objection was simply that the offer of refund appeared as a genuine offer, but in fact was impossible and a request that was odd considering the opinion expressed. More effective might have been, Go to heck. In this case I suspect that the problem is that the original message just wasn't understood well and someone should have helped the author out rather than wait until the situation went out of control. On reflection, I think the author did not offer the impossible refund in bad faith, it is too complicated to ferret out what happened. Chapter closed? Best wishes, and great Health, Doug - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mr EMan [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Andreas Gren [EMAIL PROTECTED]; E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Dueling KeyboardswasHeidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates Dear Doug, and Keyboard Krowd, I have to tell you, Doug, that I find your very well- reasoned and logical defense that a reader who doesn't like or does not agree with a book is morally and legally entitled to represent himself to the author and demand the return of his purchase price to be... a really scary idea! I have this vision of a distraught William Shakespeare in the front room of his house in Stratford-upon-Avon, surrounded by boxes and boxes... He's complaining, The basement is full; the attic is full; all the spare rooms... I got no place to put'em! He waves at the mess, It's mostly King Lear; nobody likes that ending. But I get all kinds of complaints. You wouldn't believe what they complain about; I had one jerk return Romeo and Juliet because the print was too small! Romeo and Juliet... Dejectedly, he pours another shot of Bristol Rum, And I'm going broke. Hey! I didn't make the full price of any book! What? You think the printer worked for nothing? The binder? You think that good linen paper is free? I tell ya... They're driving me ing crazy! Yeah, that authorship is a Risky Business. The notion of approval or agreement as a requisite for actually paying for a book is slippery. Just how much do you have to like or agree with it for it to be worth the full price? If you think it's pretty good but you have a few quibbles, can you write the author and ask for 50 cents back? A quarter? Does it stop with books? If you disagree with your newspaper's editorial, can you withhold that day's cost from the subscription? Did you ever stop at the box office after a stinker of a movie and demand your money back? Maybe there's a reason they give broadcast TV away... I am also curious as to whether Andi has gone through ALL the books in his house and re-assured himself that he agrees absolutely, up to the value of the full purchase price, with each and every one, agrees enough to have not have any money coming back from their authors, or if he's only made that evaluation about this one book? 100% approval, 100% satisfaction with all the other books he's ever bought? Or, maybe he's sent many other books back to their authors with a demand for a refund? If so, what were the results? I'm thinking that they way out of this dilemma is to have a page-long universal product disclaimer to be included in every book. You know the kind that are usually found on every other product we buy except books! Something like (but longer than) this: No warranty, express nor implied, is provided with this book. Batteries not included. Some assembly is required. Not all items provided are necessarily identical to those pictured; style, color, and content may vary. Some settling may occur. Discoloration is normal. If book is defective, do not return to point of purchase. All rights reserved. Made in China. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mr EMan [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Andreas Gren [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'E.P. Grondine' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Dueling KeyboardswasHeidelbergensis-Zhamanshin dates First, let me commiserate with Steve
Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
Thanks Doug, I think I may tinker around with those ideas and some of mine. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater Jerry wrote: Would the Noise material contain Ni? If that were the case a simple test for Ni might be a step toward separatng vast amounts of noise from more potentially meteoric stuff. Hi Jerry, Maybe theoretically. Keeping in mind that Bessey specs would be reasonably bigger than most of these - I think you have an assumption built into your question: That micrometeorites are similar compositionally to most of the meteorites we get our hands on. I am not sure that this is the case, or even for that matter that a magnet is picking up the authentic micrometeorites. From what I've read, which is very, very minimal, many analyzed micrometeorites are most similar to carbonaceous chondrites and most specifically CI or CM chondrites (and this builds part of the case to link them to comets). The nickel content in these tiny particles would be around 1% or even less. If anything, then, I would think the best bet would be to run a refrigerator magnet over gutter recovered material and throw out anything that actually stuck to it. Then, use a super neodymium magnet and see which specs stick to it (and, unfortunately magnetizing what little metal is in it), and keep those as candidates and throw the rest away including the particles from the Moon. On the other hand, maybe some metal particles are concentrated residue from ablation, but those would be so altered, that a trace of Iridium might be there...I'd be interested in looking for traces of amino acids, too, for example. How you would sort the tiny sub-mg particle containing a not-uniformly distributed 3 micrograms of nickel without being an ace microprobeist going nuts on a beachful of grains, sounds difficult to me. And what I suggest, too, also relies on assumptions of composition which is circular logic. The stuff collected from blocks of old ice or other natural traps is pristine, though, and could serve as somewhat of a control. The trouble with it though, is that it is hard to know if it is representative of what is accumulating today. I am not sure an ocassional event like Tunguska, for example, wouldn't provide most of the particles, or say the year following Sikhote, when looking at these reserviors. On the other hand, there is no reason the majority of micrometeorites would be the same as meteorites in our collections, because as Larry hazarded a guess, they are probably cometary in origin, perhaps like some of the sparks seen at the end of the Leonids' trails, and there is no warranty that we have anything exactly like them in our collections. (Or, to Francis' line of thinking, reflect major events of Lunar dust kicked up at some point from a major cratering event there like the one reputed to have happened in the 1100's.) Everything seems to have problems, so this sounds to me like it is a good case for a lot of grunt work and a very huge experimental design covering sampling techniques, with special interest toward developing data in say, the week following major meteor showers. Maybe NASA and collaborating reseachers have this covered from planes and balloons, but I bet even their sampling techniques bias the results knowingly and in ways not even recognized by them? Whoever is analyzing the Stardust samples (Would that happen to be Brownlee? :-) ), and what instruments and techniques are being used, would probably laugh at this, but those're the thoughts from the peanut gallery. Best wishes and Great Health, Doug - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Francis Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater Doug, Francis, Chris and List, Some might remember my post on this subject a year or so ago. I addressed the possibility of actually getting real micrometeorites using similar techniques [magnets] I referred to a leading Astronomy popularizer, Jack Horkhimer. whose PBS late night shows always ended with the phrase and remember Keep Looking Up. At the time I was rudely awakened to reality by the List, and introduced to Noise But Francis, the joy of the experience for me and my school kids was real and has remained vivid today. So the persuit is enough to provide lasting entusiasm and lifelong interest in the subject. I have a question. Would the Noise material contain Ni? If the pollutants are from manufacturing in say China [not much in the USA anymore], would the processing of the material reduce the metal to Fe? If that were the case a simple test for Ni might be a step toward
Re: [meteorite-list] PLATO PUTORANO like MESOSIDERITE METEORITE
Thank you to Don Edwards, Andi, Darren, and Ken for their information on Plato Puturano. I was surprised to learn it can also be found in Oregon. Another question. I have several Campo Meteorite slices, that when I bought them were coated with a resin, but raised rust lines have been appearing. I guess the slices were coated trapping in some moisture. How do I remove the resin, get rid of the rust lines, and prevent this from reoccurring? Thanks. Ron Terrestrial basalt with iron. Definitely NOT meteoritic. Several labs and Met Society have confirmed this. Shirokovsky and Krasnojarsk B are similar - non meteoritic. Don Edwards IMCA #6527 --- Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I've been seeing a lot of this Plato Putorano material being sold on e-bay, some ads listed as actual Meteorite and also as being LIKE Mesosiderite Meteorite. What is this Plato Puturano material anyway. Thanks, Ron __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Another Possible crater?
Jerry wrote: This is copied from the article that you supplied herein: We will defiantly let you know the outcome of the research, they said. Seems there's been quite of few of those threats on the List this year. Maybe things will calm down to normal next year and folks will get back to just nicely reporting the facts.” http://www.havredailynews.com/articles/2007/06/11/local_headlines/local.txt The origin of these features was discussed back in June. There are some really nice geological maps, which show this feature to be a domal uplift, which is only one of a number of laccoliths and other igneous intrusions. It is just one of several circular features of igneous origin that occur locally. Go look at http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2007-June/035664.html There I stated: Using information given in the article, I used Google Earth to find the the location of the structure, which it discusses. The latitude and longitude of this structure is: 108.6729941879148 W 47.82294379843308 N It is on the edge of hills known as The Little Rocky Mountains. There a number of circular structure within the region associated with laccolithic intrusions. There is a discussion of this in Geology and Physiography of Fort Belknap at: http://serc.carleton.edu/research_education/nativelands/ftbelknap/geology.html http://serc.carleton.edu/images/research_education/nativelands/ftbelknap/crosssection.gif The Geologic Map of the Zortman 30' x 60' Quadrangle, Central Montana can be downloaded from: http://www.mbmg.mtech.edu/stmap.htm and http://www.mbmg.mtech.edu/pdf_100k/zortman.pdf Two publications on the geology of the area are: Knechtel, M.M., 1944, Oil and gas possibilities of the plains adjacent to the Little Rocky Mountains, Montana: U.S. Geological Survey, Oil and Gas Investigations Map OM-4, scale 1:48000. Knechtel, M.M., 1959, Stratigraphy of the Little Rocky Mountains and encircling foothills, Montana: U.S. Geological Survey, Bulletin 1072-N, scale 1:48000.” Best Regards, Paul Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
