date:20091115

Oops, I made 3 posts before bed, but my email got out of plain text...

--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: RE:  WHY HELP A DUMB A$$ N3W8IE?
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, countde...@earthlink.net
 Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 8:35 PM
 One, two, three cookies, ha ha ha
 (I guess the google sesame themes are still in my
 mind...)

 Anyways, good reply Count (regarding
 newbies).  I enjoy the questions from newbies; a
 diverse membership at all levels makes a healthy
 hobby.  And most disagreements/annoying posts usually
 boil down to one solution: the delete key.  Read the
 initial post or two, and then read on or delete the
 remainder.  I haven't followed the Morocco thread
 b/c my interests lie in local hunting rather than becoming a
 dealer/importer.

 Nobody should be expected to reveal trade secrets, but
 it never hurts to shake the trees to see what falls out (on
 or OFF LIST).  Somebody experienced may spark on then
 and take them under their wing.  I have met a lot of
 wonderful friends on this list I'd bend over backwards
 to assist.

 Clear skies and bolide dreams (but preferable
 bolide realities) - to ALL!
 Mark B. (more of a Serf than a Count)  ;-)
 Vail, AZ (magical land of meteorites, minerals and
 headframes!)

 --- On Sat, 11/14/09, countde...@earthlink.net
 countde...@earthlink.net wrote:

 From: countde...@earthlink.net
 countde...@earthlink.net
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fw: RE: WHY HELP A
 DUMB ASS NEWBIE?
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 6:32 PM

 -Forwarded Message-
 From: countde...@earthlink.net
 Sent: Nov 14, 2009 8:30 PM
 To: Howard Steffic bencub...@hotmail.com
 Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB ASS
 NEWBIE?

 Yes. I am Count Guido Roberto Deiro. Perillustrious
 (Lord) of Precorsa and Arya, Knight Grand Cross of Justice
 and Grand Chancellor of the Sovereign Dynastic Hospitaller
 Order of St. John KOM, Knight Grand Cross of Justice of the
 Sovereign Military Order of St. George, Guardia d'Honore
 d'Italia e Nobile de Deiro. All that, and a twenty
 dollar bill, will usually get one a good seating in a fine
 restaurant.

 Seriously, if your interested,
  access www.guidodeiro.com and look under
 contents and marriages for
 information and photos. The site was set up by City
 University of New York and is about my father's career
 and life...but I slid in there too.

 Best regards,

 Count Deiro (newbie) 

 -Original Message-
 From: Howard Steffic bencub...@hotmail.com
 Sent: Nov 14, 2009 5:26 PM
 To: countde...@earthlink.net
 Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB ASS
 NEWBIE?

 Are you a real count?

 Howard
  Steffic

  Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:56:52 -0500
  From: countde...@earthlink.net
  To: carloselgua...@hotmail.com;
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] WHY HELP A DUMB
 ASS NEWBIE?

  Or, what do newbies mean to the
 ongoing collection, classification, sale and display of
 meteorites?

  I'm a newbie. I
  haven't yet found a meteorite and apparently this is
 one of the qualifiers to be a real deal
 meteorite hunter/collector. I don't have a clue what
 other qualifiers are. What I have done, is sell my jet boat
 10 months ago and spend thousands of dollars subscribing to
 magazines, purchasing books and field guides, buying an zoom
 microscope, testing equipment, chemicals, magnifying loupes
 and glasses, hand tools, a work bench, lighting, a locking
 cabinet, neomydium magnets, a metal detector, picks and
 shovels, back packs, desert hiking and camping clothing and
 equipment, maps of strewn fields, a GPS device and I traded
 my Ford sedan for a 4 wheel drive Jeep Cherokee.

  I found out about the LIST six months ago from
 a neighbor, Sonny Clary, (who gave me my first meteorite and
 continues to give me others..) I began reading every posting
 on the LIST. I set about to collect examples of the requiste
 types of meteorites and tektites
  that you real deals write about. After
 obtaining specimens of the three major classifications, I
 began going for the planetary rarities and the low tkw
 stuff. I've collected sixty examples, as of today
 and maintain a list of future have to haves.

  All of the above...I'll say it
 again...All..(except that Jeep)..was bought from individuals
 and companies I found on on the LIST.

  That's why newbies on the
 LIST should be treated respectfully and
 encouraged to ask questions.

  Count Deiro

  -Original Message-
 From: Carl 's 
 Sent: Nov 14, 2009 10:04 AM
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Beating a dead
 horse to Morocco

 Hello Howard, All,

 You are absolutely correct. We newbies
 should not ask knowledgeable veterans such basic questions.
 We must do the legwork

Re: [meteorite-list] (no subject)

At least they don't act like the NOOBS on the list. ;-)

 --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Dennis Miller
 astror...@hotmail.com wrote:

 From: Dennis Miller astror...@hotmail.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] (no subject)
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 8:17 PM

 _Meteorite Bashing Dictionary_

 New-Bie  [Noo-Bee, Nyoo-] -noun

   One who is inexperienced; one who's collection
 is valued
   less that one million dollars; an enthusiast who has
 not
   been published, in the meteorite world; one
 who's name has 
   not made Cambridge Meteorite Encyclopedia; one who
 admits to
   not having all the answers and have to ask the
 Experts'
   seemingly  dumb questions. 

 How else does one escape the dreaded label
 Newbie and enter
 the realm of expert or I can stand alone,
 for I know everything!
 And believe me, years of service to the hobby means
 little.

 Dennis  

 _
 Windows 7:
  I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock
 star.
 http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009
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 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list

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[meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites Competition)

 From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites  Competition)
 To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, Adam Hupe 
 raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 11:16 PM

Dear List,

I think Adam has some great points.  I think people forget how rare these 
things are.  Prices often don't reflect that.

I think people are more likely to give advice when a newbie asks something 
like, I've ruined several slices trying to do such  such, I've tried A and B, 
what else should I do.  it shows that they're paying their dues, but need a 
little advice which they can probably absorb quickly, saving an expert's 
time.  The sad thing is that a few slices/specimens have been ruined (maybe 
from cheap, common NWA material, but very rare, finite material nonetheless).

How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and your business vs. the 
ideal of preserving this wonderful material?  I suppose there are techniques 
which are common in parallel fields like lapidary, which one can assume they'll 
figure it out the hard way (both hard on their time/wallet but also hard on 
meteorites).  I would say one should be somewhat eager to help in that case, 
since keeping quiet won't deter them but only make possible the damage of more 
specimens.  However, offering help takes precious time, busy people lack.

What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting some of these common 
things?  The first person(s) with the ability to write said tome could profit 
from the book sales, and many novices would benefit from the tips.  Sensitive 
trade secrets could be mentioned by name and the disclaimer given that you will 
have to experiment at the peril of your collection and finances - or maybe find 
a willing mentor.  

The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - covering the common things 
which can be found in a lapidary book, but from a meteorite point of view 
(there might be possibility of tips like it's wise to practice this technique 
using sandstone(?)  because it approximates XYZ meteorites very well, and you 
can rest assured that your learning curve isn't busting the bank).  And it 
would also cover the meteorites specific topics like chemicals/oils to avoid, 
etc.  Maybe some explanations of the different textures you will encounter in 
meteorites.  Maybe a section on thin sections, epoxy plugs, and ?

There might be room for general things like an explanation meteorite 
classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for documenting a collection 
of specimens, a list of common vendors, etc.  There are lots of interesting, 
useful things that could be added that I can't imagine.  Of course, you would 
have to have environmental, health and safety concerns highlighted and repeated 
throughout the book!

I know this may sound a little out in left field, but it would help with the 
overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce poor, albeit, harmless results 
(as well as be an opportunity to make some money).  Could it result in 
increased completion?  Probably so, but those rushing head long into the 
wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway.  And those who are inspired by the 
book may take a stab at it, but realize it's expensive, hard work and go back 
to only buying/trading/collecting.  This book may exist, but I don't think so.  
I can think of a few books which explain etching and nickel testing, but I 
can't think of anything which comprehensively covers the preservation and 
preparation of meteorite  specimens.

Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful of dealers held in high 
regard, who have invaluable reputations to protect (or middlemen I trust as 
friends I can trust).  And some field hunters I know.  I've decided to avoid 
attractive specimens of questionable pedigree, unless I'm willing to make the 
often expensive choice to advertise them as believed to be XYZ specimen.   So 
this book would not  cause the big dealers to lose my (rare) business.  When a 
newbie asks a question, you can point them to the Bible.

So what do you guys think?  Crazy?  Brilliant?  (Someone with too much time on 
his hands tonight?)  Is this an issue that's already on the IMCA to-do list?  
Is this not commercially viable?

(Cricket chirping‎?)  ;-)

Clear skies,
Mark

 --- On Sat, 11/14/09, Adam Hupe
 raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites  Competition
 To: Adam
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 1:29 PM

 Dear List,

 I think it is crazy to talk about corporate greed and
 meteorites at the same time. There are much simpler ways of
 earning money than chasing and selling meteorites.  You
 have to have a love for these rocks to engage at this
 level.  The overhead is astonishing while the returns
 are unpredictable in an incredibly thin market.  Risk
 management doesn't exist. 

 I believe more corporate

Re: [meteorite-list] Jim Smaller

2009-11-15 Thread Larry Twink Monrad

It was interesting the way Jim Kriegh and I met Jim Smaller.  We were at the 
Tucson Gem Show many years ago seeing the big weekend show at the Tucson 
Community Center.  Jim was showing me the gold displays, and  he stopped by 
a wonderful display featuring an old gold mine in Colorado.  Jim had lived 
in CO and went to college in Boulder and loved to hunt for gold so this 
display interested him greatly.  As we were looking at and commenting on 
this a large man next to us told us that his father had worked at that mine 
and he was proud to see this at the Show.  Somehow we got around to talking 
about gold hunting in Arizona, which led to meteorite hunting in Arizona, 
and he figured out who Jim Kriegh was right away.  We laughed about that, 
and planned to hunt together someday but unfortunately we never organized a 
trip together.


Twink Monrad 


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Re: [meteorite-list] exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14

2009-11-15 Thread Darren Garrison

On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:39:04 -0700, you wrote:

It is consistent with the ejecta layer from an impact event and

...

ejecta layer is consistent with an impact near the Great Lakes
that deposited terrestrial-like ejecta near the impact site and
unusual, titanium-rich projectile-like ejecta further away.

...

Ni, Co, U, Th and other trace element abundances are inconsistent
with all terrestrial and extraterrestrial (ET) sources except for
KREEP, a lunar igneous rock rich in potassium (K), rare-earth
elements (REE), phosphorus (P), and other incompatible elements
including U and Th.

...

Four holes in the Great Lakes, some deeper than Death Valley,
are proposed as possible craters produced by the airburst
breakup of a loosely aggregated projectile.

...

the Great Lakes or Hudson Bay. The magnetic grains and
spherules have an unusual Fe/Ti composition similar to lunar
Procellarum KREEP Terrane and the organic constituents are
enriched in 14C leading to radiocarbon dates often well into
the future.
These characteristics are inconsistent with known meteorites
and suggest that the impact was by a previous unobserved,
possibly extrasolar body.



Okay, a review-- so far this impactor has been a 500 mile wide snowflake from
the atmosphere of a supernova hitting at hundreds of kilometers per second.  It
has been an airburst over ice leaving no crater.  It has left craters deeper
than Death Valley in the Great Lakes.  It has caused golden showers and a rain
of diamonds that lasted for months.  It shotgun-blasted iron particles into the
tusks of mammoths.  It has been a comet.  It has been a chondrite, and all
meteorites found by or through Nininger have been debris from it, so it was
actually all types of chondrite and everything else Nininger collected.  Now, it
is an extrasolar lunar meteorite from the future.  

So, to sum it up, this 500 mile 10 mile very low-density metal and stone filled
comet-asteroid supernova-produced lunar snowflake that struck at hundreds of
kilometers per second did and didn't produce impact craters and left no marks
except for the Great Lakes and thousands of very shallow overlapping, highly
oblong pits exactly like craters from an impact event except for craters from an
impact event rarely being very shallow, overlapping, highly oblong pits.  It
killed off all the lost Ice Age fauna at once, except for all of the Ice Age
fauna, which went extinct at different times in different locations and spread
out over thousands to tens of thousands of years (in some spots pretty darn well
timed with the establishment of human populations, coincidence or no.)  Oh, and
somehow a supernova is still involved.  

That isn't refining an idea-- that is throwing everything you can think of
against the wall and hoping that some of it sticks.
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[meteorite-list] exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14

2009-11-15 Thread Rich Murray


exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD
reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray
2009.11.14
http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.htm
Saturday, November 14, 2009
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/31
___


http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/mammoth.html Firestone paper links

http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/TunguskaConferenceA4_Firestone.pdf
37 pages
Firestone, R.B.; West, A.; Revay Zs.; Hagstrum J.T.; Belgya T.;
Que Hee S.S.; and Smith, A.R. (2008)
Analysis of the Younger Dryas Impact Layer,
100 years since Tunguska phenomenon: past, present, and future,
June 26-28, Moscow, in press. 54 references

R.B. Firestone 1,
A. West 2,
Zs. Revay 3,
J. T. Hagstrum 4,
T. Belgya 3,
S.S. Que Hee 5,
and A.R. Smith 1
1 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, Ca 94720,
[ #43 Henderson, G.M.; Hall, B.L.; Smith, A.;  Robinson, L.F.
(2006) Chem. Geol. 226, 298-308 ]
2 GeoScience Consulting, Box 1636, Dewey, Arizona 86327,
3 Institute for Isotope and Surface Chemistry,
P.O. Box 77, H-1525 Budapest, Hungary,
4 U.S. Geological Survey, 345 Middlefield Road MS 937,
Menlo Park, CA 94025,
5 University of California, Los Angeles, ICP-MS Facility,
Los Angeles, CA 90095

Abstract

We have uncovered a thin layer of magnetic grains and
microspherules, carbon spherules, and glass-like carbon at
nine sites across North America, a site in Belgium, and
throughout the rims of 16 Carolina Bays.
It is consistent with the ejecta layer from an impact event and
has been dated to 12.9 ka BP coinciding with the onset of
Younger Dryas (YD) cooling and widespread megafaunal
extinctions in North America.
At many locations the impact layer is directly below a black mat
marking the sudden disappearance of the megafauna and Clovis
people.
The distribution pattern of the Younger Dryas boundary (YDB)
ejecta layer is consistent with an impact near the Great Lakes
that deposited terrestrial-like ejecta near the impact site and
unusual, titanium-rich projectile-like ejecta further away.
High water content associated with the ejecta, up to 28 at.%
hydrogen (H), suggests the impact occurred over the Laurentide
Ice Sheet.
YDB microspherules and magnetic grains are highly enriched in
TiO2.
Magnetic grains from several sites are enriched in iridium (Ir), up
to 117 ppb.
The TiO2/FeO, K/Th, TiO2/Zr, Al2O3/FeO+MgO, CaO/Al2O3,
REE/chondrite, FeO/MnO ratios and SiO2, Na2O, K2O, Cr2O3,
Ni, Co, U, Th and other trace element abundances are inconsistent
with all terrestrial and extraterrestrial (ET) sources except for
KREEP, a lunar igneous rock rich in potassium (K), rare-earth
elements (REE), phosphorus (P), and other incompatible elements
including U and Th.
Normal Fe, Ti, and 238U/235U isotopic abundances were found
in the magnetic grains, but 234U was enriched over equilibrium
values by 50% in Murray Springs and by 130% in Belgium.
40K abundance is enriched by up to 100% in YDB sediments and
Clovis chert artifacts.
Highly vesicular carbon spherules containing nanodiamonds,
glass-like carbon, charcoal and soot found in large quantities in
the YDB layer are consistent with an impact followed by intense
burning.
Four holes in the Great Lakes, some deeper than Death Valley,
are proposed as possible craters produced by the airburst
breakup of a loosely aggregated projectile.

from Table 2:

CLOVIS SITES:
Blackwater Draw, NM- 34.27564N 103.32633W
Chobot, AB, CAN- 52.99521N 114.71773W
Gainey, MI- 42.93978N,, 83.72111W
Murray Springs, AZ 31.57103N 110.17814W
Wally's Beach, AB- 49.34183N 113.15440W
Topper, SC -- T-1- 33.00554N,, 81.49001W
Topper, SC -- T-2- 33.00545N,, 81.49056W

CLOVIS-AGE SITES:
Daisy Cave, CA--- 34.04207N 120.32009W
Lake Hind, MB, CAN- 49.43970N 100.69783W
Lommel, BELGIUM--- 51.23580N, 5.26403E
Morley drumlin, AB 51.14853N, 114.93546W

CAROLINA BAYS: (with paleosol beneath)
Blackville, SC -- T13--- 33.36120N 81.30440W
Myrtle Beach, SC -- M31-- 33.83776N 78.69565W
Lk Mattamuskeet -- LM 35.51865N 76.267917W
Howard Bay, NC -- HB 34.81417N 78.84753W
[ http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/PP43A_10.pdf ] poster 1.07 MB

CAROLINA BAYS: (no paleosol reached)
Myrtle Beach, SC -- M33-- 33.81883N 78.74181W
Myrtle Beach, SC -- M24-- 33.83118N 78.72379W
Myrtle Beach, SC -- M32-- 33.84034N 78.70906W
Salters Lake, NC -- B14--- 34.70992N 78.62043W
Lumberton, NC -- L33- 34.75566N 79.10870W
Lumberton, NC -- L28- 34.77766N 79.05008W
Lumberton, NC -- L31- 34.78117N 79.04774W
Lumberton, NC -- L32- 34.79324N 79.01871W
Moore Cty, NC -- MC1--- 35.30104N 78. 84753W
Sewell, NC -- FS3- 34.95800N 78.70280W
Lake Phelps -- LP-- 35.78412N 76.434383W

I looked all these up with Google Earth and Maps.
In many cases, many craters overlap complexly, so it
is not clear which is the one studied.
It is always easy to find many more in each cluster.

[meteorite-list] hoba meteorite wanted please.

2009-11-15 Thread srku

Dear All,

   If you have one, please email me with its information and price.
   Thanks a lot.

Sincerely,
 Roke
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Re: [meteorite-list] exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14

2009-11-15 Thread Ted Bunch

Patience Darren. Listed below are the various scenarios presently considered
to account for the YD impactevent.  When there is an absence of a crater,
research needs to dig deeper, much like the position of the Alvarez group in
the '80s before a crater was found for the K/T event. We know that airbursts
have happened in the past (e. g., Tunguska), the questions are, how big have
they been and how big can they be?

What was presented prior to 2006 has little to do with present
considerations concerning the origin of the YD event based on the efforts of
60 scientists from eight countries. Most of these efforts have focused on
analyzing materials from sites that occur from California to the Caspian
Sea, not speculating on potential origins. However, we do need to work the
data with various impact options in order to see what are good and bad fits:


(1) An extraordinary accretion of micrometeorites (Pinter and Ishman, 2008),
which is inconsistent with YDB carbon spherule compositions and the huge
amount of nanodiamonds found within the YDB carbon spherules.
(2) Oblique impact (s) into the Laurentide Ice Sheet. This model does
account for the absence of a crater and the lack of cratering markers.
Also provides for the shock production of the many cubic and lonsdaleite
(hexagonal) nanodiamonds found in the YDB.
(3) Impact-induced aerial burst (s), e. g, Boslough and Crawford (2007);
Shuvalov (2008). The lack of high shock pressures in an aerial detonation
does not necessary preclude the formation of cubic and hexagonal diamonds.
Maruyama et al., (1993) made hexagonal and cubic diamonds by a CVD process
from a high temperature plasma atmosphere (13,000 °C) under conditions
similar to those in an aerial burst. The Tunguska event is commonly accepted
as the result of a near surface aerial burst and has many similarities with
the YD event, including diamonds.
(4) Comet grazing of the atmosphere (Drobysheski, 2009). Nearly tangent
entry of a comet into the Earth¹s atmosphere with partial detonation and
melting followed by escape of the unexploded nucleus into space. Has the net
effect of an atmosphere-penetrating aerial burst followed by global fallout
of detonation products.

More work and time may give us a better understanding of the YD impact
mechanism. In the meantime, I suggest that you are what needs to be peeled
off the wall. Get a clearer focus on pertinent literature and on-going
research - the upcoming AGU Meeting, with pro and con abstracts on the
subject, is a good place to start.

Ted Bunch




On 11/15/09 8:47 AM, Darren Garrison cyna...@charter.net wrote:

 On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:39:04 -0700, you wrote:
 
 It is consistent with the ejecta layer from an impact event and
 
 ...
 
 ejecta layer is consistent with an impact near the Great Lakes
 that deposited terrestrial-like ejecta near the impact site and
 unusual, titanium-rich projectile-like ejecta further away.
 
 ...
 
 Ni, Co, U, Th and other trace element abundances are inconsistent
 with all terrestrial and extraterrestrial (ET) sources except for
 KREEP, a lunar igneous rock rich in potassium (K), rare-earth
 elements (REE), phosphorus (P), and other incompatible elements
 including U and Th.
 
 ...
 
 Four holes in the Great Lakes, some deeper than Death Valley,
 are proposed as possible craters produced by the airburst
 breakup of a loosely aggregated projectile.
 
 ...
 
 the Great Lakes or Hudson Bay. The magnetic grains and
 spherules have an unusual Fe/Ti composition similar to lunar
 Procellarum KREEP Terrane and the organic constituents are
 enriched in 14C leading to radiocarbon dates often well into
 the future.
 These characteristics are inconsistent with known meteorites
 and suggest that the impact was by a previous unobserved,
 possibly extrasolar body.
 
 
 
 Okay, a review-- so far this impactor has been a 500 mile wide snowflake from
 the atmosphere of a supernova hitting at hundreds of kilometers per second.
 It
 has been an airburst over ice leaving no crater.  It has left craters deeper
 than Death Valley in the Great Lakes.  It has caused golden showers and a rain
 of diamonds that lasted for months.  It shotgun-blasted iron particles into
 the
 tusks of mammoths.  It has been a comet.  It has been a chondrite, and all
 meteorites found by or through Nininger have been debris from it, so it was
 actually all types of chondrite and everything else Nininger collected.  Now,
 it
 is an extrasolar lunar meteorite from the future.
 
 So, to sum it up, this 500 mile 10 mile very low-density metal and stone
 filled
 comet-asteroid supernova-produced lunar snowflake that struck at hundreds of
 kilometers per second did and didn't produce impact craters and left no marks
 except for the Great Lakes and thousands of very shallow overlapping, highly
 oblong pits exactly like craters from an impact event except for craters from
 an
 impact event rarely being very shallow, overlapping, highly oblong pits.  It
 killed off all the lost

Re: [meteorite-list] BEATING A DEAD HORSE - The future and beyond


Wow:
 
All of this is pretty amazing.  First of all, we ALL were newbies at some 
point.  Also, I think newbies buy alot of meteorites from dealers too.  You 
never know, a newbie now may spend 1000’s of $ over the next few years.   Too 
me it's very bad business to treat you customers poorly, or make fun of them.  
That’s one wat to hurt sales.  I joined this list to learn from the experts; if 
their goal is to keep knowledge from me or look down at me, I think that's sad 
and very disappointing.  Then all this list becomes is a marketing site.  Sure, 
info about a new find or cold finds being confidential is understandable.  But 
what is wrong with helping someone with payment options to a Moroccan dealer?  
All I can said is I only buy meteorites from certain dealers, there is a reason 
for that – think about it.
 
Greg S.

 From: bencub...@hotmail.com
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:14:42 -0700
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BEATING A DEAD HORSE - The future and beyond


 Well Greg...

 The way you ended your email pretty much says it all:

 Just my two pennies. From what I understand that is pyou pretty much all you 
 have to spend. So you get deserve two cents worth. Pretty much way down on 
 the food chain in my opinion.

 Business in the USA is a dog eat dog world. That is capitalizm dude. Didn't 
 you learn anything in business school?

 That is what I am talking about, Business.

 Good lOrd get a clue dude.

 Howard Steffic


 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:46:35 -0800
 From: star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BEATING A DEAD HORSE - The future and beyond

 I would have to agree with you Dave.

 I also think that it shows a good deal about someone who is willing to help 
 others, just as it shows a good deal about those that are not willing.

 Howards comments reflect a perfect example of why I have grown to have the 
 impression that meteorites are dog eat dog and question motives and reasons 
 for certain things.

 Should we really look at educating and helping newer collectors and 
 tomorrows hunters/dealers as bad and training the competition or should 
 we look at it as making sure those that will take the reigns of this great 
 hobby have learned from those that know how to do it right?

 Sure to some, meteorites are simply that gold mine or money falling from 
 the sky while to others, meteorites offer a chance to take part in 
 something, to learn about and take part in the study of space and history.

 I guess it all comes down to why people are into meteorites... For money, or 
 for the science of meteoritics. sure the money is good, I wont deny that, 
 but is that all its really about? No.

 We are gifted with some wonderful things from outside this planet that we 
 would never be able to touch, test, learn from or anything else many claim 
 to value and want to preserve. With that in mind, should it not be in all of 
 our best interests to make sure that the future generation has learned from 
 those that know how to properly document, record, preserve and care for the 
 collections we value so much today?

 Sure, some may look at it as training competition, but perhaps they should 
 really look at it as passing on a gift of knowledge to those that will 
 follow in the footsteps of the path they have already traveled...

 just my 2 pennies, hope everyone is having a good day!


 Greg C.
 www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
 IMCA 4682


 --- On Sat, 11/14/09, dave carothers wrote:

 From: dave carothers 
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Best ways to send payments - BEATING A DEAD 
 HORSEIs toMorocco
 To: Howard Steffic , meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 1:20 PM
 Howard,

 Respectfully...

 Reference your comment I laugh at how the newbies expect
 the veterans
 with the battle scars to tell them exacty how to  Hunt
 Meteorites or
 Sell on Ebay or send money overseas. Get off the couch and
 do your own
 legwork.

 Why should it bother YOU that someone should ask for for
 advice or
 assistance? Go back through the history of this list
 and you will see
 literally thousands of instances where dealers and
 professional hunters have
 freely offered advice and assistance to
 newbies. You don't think people
 stay on this list for the ads, do you? You don't
 think people stay on this
 list for the disputes, cyber fist fights, etc, do
 you? I personally stay on
 this list (and I'm sure other do to) so we CAN ask for
 advice and assistance
 from the pros.

 I won't answer as to the motives or rationale of why
 dealers and
 professional hunters freely offer advice and assistance to
 newbies, but
 suffice to say that I (and I know hundreds, maybe thousands
 of others over
 the history of this list) appreciate ALL the assistance
 offered by ANYONE on
 this list.

 Regards,

 Dave


 - Original Message -
 From: Howard

[meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009;; 21.25 cmt

2009-11-15 Thread habibi abdelaziz

hi guys
each time of this year october and november we have a fall, 
it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise time and 
space with a small incertitude of a month,

it fells over rich 20 km north est,

ITS CONFIRMED ?  more news to fallow,

thanks
aziz habibi


 font style=BACKGROUND-COLOR:#40; face=comic sans mshabibi aziz 
box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco 
phone. 21235576145 
fax.21235576170/font 


  
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Re: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009; ; 21.25 cmt

2009-11-15 Thread Gary Fujihara

Mahalo (thank you) Aziz for the updates of the recent fireball over Errachidia, 
Morocco.  Last year around this time was Tamdakht, and I am anxious to hear of 
any recovery of this potential new fall.

gary

On Nov 15, 2009, at 7:22 AM, habibi abdelaziz wrote:

 hi guys
 each time of this year october and november we have a fall, 
 it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise time 
 and space with a small incertitude of a month,
 
 it fells over rich 20 km north est,
 
 ITS CONFIRMED ?  more news to fallow,
 
 thanks
 aziz habibi
 
 
  font style=BACKGROUND-COLOR:#40; face=comic sans mshabibi aziz 
 box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco 
 phone. 21235576145 
 fax.21235576170/font 
 
 
 
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Gary Fujihara
AstroDay Institute
105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720
(808) 640-9161, fuj...@mac.com
http://astroday.net

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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage


I may be late for this:
 
I was flying from DC with some meteorites and I carried them on (I never check 
anything I would not want to lose or need) and the TSA looked at them like the 
were from outer space... heHeHe... and they pulled me aside and asked me 
questions.  I told the I was visiting the Smithsonian.  Now there were about 
three of the looking at my stones handing to one another and looking a me 
oddly.  At this point I was getting worried; a few 100 gram chondrites i found 
and some rare achondrites I have bought - including a mars meteorite.  Well, 
after a bout 5 or 10 minutes they let me go... wow, I was sweating.  I would 
certainly call the airline and check.
 
Greg S.


 From: astror...@hotmail.com
 To: dar...@dof3.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:23:02 -0600
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage


 In mine, the TSA in Cairo considered my samples as Hazardous Projectiles
 and would not allow them as carry-on. Had to check them. That was in
 September. Got home with them O.K. Just fossels, got stopped for my
 meteorite search in Sudan.
 Dennis

 From: dar...@dof3.com
 To: mars...@gmail.com
 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:56:38 -0500
 CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites in your Carry-On Luggage



 in my experience, it's at the discretion of the TSA supervisor on duty.

 good luck. best/ d,




 On Nov 14, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Kevin Kichinka wrote:

 I want to bring two iron meteorites, one a Campo of 10 kgs., the other
 a Gibeon of 4 kgs., to Costa Rica from Miami on American Airlines. I
 would never check them and take a chance they might disappear. I would
 carry them on the plane in a small suitcase.


 Are these prohibited items? How do dealers flying around the planet to
 shows ship their rocks?


 Thanks for any and all that have experience with this and respond.


 Kevin Kichinka
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Re: [meteorite-list] Barred Chondrule Fans JaH 055 incident light micrograph gallery update


Tom:
 
You produce amazing pictures - you're an artist.
You need to publish a book of you work.
 
Greg S.


 From: starsandsco...@aol.com
 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:21:10 -0500
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Barred Chondrule Fans JaH 055 incident light 
 micrograph gallery update

 Hi List, Last week I emailed the list about a SaU 001 chondrule shot that
 I wanted to send in full resolution to anyone who wanted it.

 There were over 40 takers but unfortunately many had Internet provider
 limits on file size so they couldn't get the full size file.

 I had some beautiful high resolution shots of this JaH 055 chondrule that
 you need to se to appreciate. They are not using a thin section and they
 are in true color. Really what they look like way up close. I wanted to
 send a full size file again but the last try didn't work out so well.

 Paul (Meteorite Times and Meteorite Exchange) helped out. He just set up
 a new set of JaH 055 barred chondrule reflected light images on my gallery
 and posted one full size in image of the month. You can down load it off
 the site with out dealing with email size limits!

 Both can be found in my gallery
 http://www.meteorite.com/meteorite-gallery/meteorites-feat_frame.htm
 Select Features on the top tab and the image of the month or barred
 chondrule.

 While you are there, I just put up a set of Al Huqf 007 taken in
 transmitted cross polarized light. These are the colorful thin section Xpol 
 shots.
 Some are quite abstract but beautiful (at least I think so).

 Please check them out. Thanks Tom Phillips

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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Competition

Hi Adam,

I'm curios what you mean by corporate involvement when it concerns
meteorites? With regards to the IMCA I am in partial agreement, and
believe they are a good organization, and needed in this industry. But
some restraint needs to be had with regard to the influence that these
types of groups have. Historically speaking such groups tend to lean
toward their own motives over time. There has been no organization in
the history of man that has not given in, at least partially, to the
temptation such influence.

If you mean some sort of sponsorship of certain outreach and educational
programs geared toward teaching children and young adults about
astronomy and meteorites then I'm game. But if corporate involvement
means losing the personality and integrity of the meteorite world
through increased tampering by larger groups and politically or profit
motivated companies who might in future times limit the publics access
to meteorites then I'm not for that at all. This is a slippery slope...

My personal beliefs are that people should have free access to the
knowledge and information that meteorites and astronomy provides. The
word corporate to me means restrictive for profit, and an example
would be the corporate mentality of profit before people. I'm not
necessarily referring to monetary profit, but rather to the increased
influence particular groups may have over access to knowledge and
information through the study of meteorites by individuals and the
limited access that some scientific institutions have applied to certain
collections. Collections that in my opinion every human being on the
planet should have access to. Not to fondle and ogle the collection, but
to view, study and learn.

I'm not attacking here, I'm simply voicing a concern and my belief in
the free access to knowledge that needs to be preserved.

Thanks for listening...

Regards,
Eric Wichman
Meteorites USA

Adam Hupe wrote:

Dear List,

I think it is crazy to talk about corporate greed and meteorites at the same time. There are much simpler ways of earning money than chasing and selling meteorites. You have to have a love for these rocks to engage at this level. The overhead is astonishing while the returns are unpredictable in an incredibly thin market. Risk management doesn't exist.

I believe more corporate involvement is needed to push this avocation to the next level. The IMCA is a perfect example of a positive corporate influence on a mostly misunderstood hobby. What lacks the most right now is customer service and value added reselling. Most new dealers do not even polish out the saw marks on slices, let alone polish both sides. Collectors pay for both sides of a complete slice, not just one. It is disrespectful to cut a meteorite and then not complete the job. A good polish is more important for reasons beyond aesthetics. Certification is the most important aspect of collecting and is consistently lacking when dealing with meteorites. One just needs to look at coins, baseball cards and most other collectibles to see they are nearly worthless without it.

In virtually ever other collectibles market, there are standards in place thanks to corporate interest. These days, some uninformed elements treat meteorites like commodities that are renewable. Nothing could be further from the truth. The lack of appreciation for these rarities is really on full display during these hard times. People forget that meteorites are millions of time rarer than gold that currently maintains a price of around $35.00/gram. May I remind you that now only about 1/20th the amount of meteorites by weight is all that is coming out of Moroccan compared to just five years ago according to my calculations. It will not be long before the non-available Antarctic meteorites regain the volume title once again.

I do appreciate the real nomadic meteorite hunters from Morocco and surrounding countries. In my opinion, they are the best in world. It is what happens to meteorites after they leave the finders hands that concerns me.

Standards, proper appreciation and corporate involvement are key to the long-term future. I see a business-like environment helping in all of these regards.Collectors deserve to have their investments protected.

All the best,

Adam
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Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites Competition)

2009-11-15 Thread Impactika

Hello Mark and List,
 
There is already a book that answers a lot of your questions, not all of 
them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of Meteorites by O. Richard Norton. 
I certainly would recommend getting it.
 
Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion about helping new 
meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not see a response on the List 
that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole lot better to email 
that person privately to ask for additional details to narrow down the 
problem, or simply to protect that person from some public embarassement. I 
know I 
probably write 50 private emails for every one posted here. 
 
And then we are not all always glued to our computer (believe it or not!!), 
personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) to translate as 
quickly as possible so it will be available in Tucson.
 
And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of having to answer every 
question that comes in on the IMCA questions email address. Also time 
consuming. 
 
And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!!
Have a nice day.
 
Anne M. Black
_http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) 
_impact...@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) 
Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc.
_http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) 
 
 
 
In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
mina...@yahoo.com writes:
Dear List,

I think Adam has some great points.  I think people forget how rare these 
things are.  Prices often don't reflect that.

I think people are more likely to give advice when a newbie asks 
something like, I've ruined several slices trying to do such  such, I've tried 
A 
and B, what else should I do.  it shows that they're paying their dues, but 
need a little advice which they can probably absorb quickly, saving an 
expert's time.  The sad thing is that a few slices/specimens have been ruined 
(maybe from cheap, common NWA material, but very rare, finite material 
nonetheless).

How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and your business vs. 
the ideal of preserving this wonderful material?  I suppose there are 
techniques which are common in parallel fields like lapidary, which one can 
assume 
they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their time/wallet but also 
hard on meteorites).  I would say one should be somewhat eager to help in 
that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but only make possible the 
damage of more specimens.  However, offering help takes precious time, busy 
people lack.

What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting some of these 
common things?  The first person(s) with the ability to write said tome could 
profit from the book sales, and many novices would benefit from the tips.  
Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and the disclaimer given 
that you will have to experiment at the peril of your collection and finances - 
or maybe find a willing mentor.  

The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - covering the common 
things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from a meteorite point of 
view (there might be possibility of tips like it's wise to practice this 
technique using sandstone(?)  because it approximates XYZ meteorites very well, 
and you can rest assured that your learning curve isn't busting the bank).  
And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics like chemicals/oils 
to avoid, etc.  Maybe some explanations of the different textures you will 
encounter in meteorites.  Maybe a section on thin sections, epoxy plugs, and ?

There might be room for general things like an explanation meteorite 
classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for documenting a collection 
of 
specimens, a list of common vendors, etc.  There are lots of interesting, 
useful things that could be added that I can't imagine.  Of course, you would 
have to have environmental, health and safety concerns highlighted and 
repeated throughout the book!

I know this may sound a little out in left field, but it would help with 
the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce poor, albeit, harmless 
results (as well as be an opportunity to make some money).  Could it result in 
increased completion?  Probably so, but those rushing head long into the 
wilderness probably can't be stopped anyway.  And those who are inspired by the 
book may take a stab at it, but realize it's expensive, hard work and go 
back to only buying/trading/collecting.  This book may exist, but I don't 
think so.  I can think of a few books which explain etching and nickel testing, 
but I can't think of anything which comprehensively covers the preservation 
and preparation of meteorite  specimens.

Personally, I will always choose to buy from a handful of dealers held in 
high regard, who have invaluable reputations to protect (or middlemen I trust 
as friends I can trust).  And some field hunters I know.  I've decided to 
avoid attractive specimens of questionable

Re: [meteorite-list] Beating a dead horse...etc.

2009-11-15 Thread Carl 's


Hi Greg,

Actually, all the dealers have been very helpful. The only one who thinks in 
terms of competition is Howard Steffic who I believe is not a dealer.

Carl


Greg Stanley wrote:
All of this is pretty amazing.  First of all, we ALL were newbies at some
point.  Also, I think newbies buy alot of meteorites from dealers too.  You
never know, a newbie now may spend 1000’s of $ over the next few years.   Too
me it's very bad business to treat you customers poorly, or make fun of them.
That’s one wat to hurt sales.  I joined this list to learn from the experts; if
their goal is to keep knowledge from me or look down at me, I think that's sad
and very disappointing.  Then all this list becomes is a marketing site.  Sure,
info about a new find or cold finds being confidential is understandable.  But
what is wrong with helping someone with payment options to a Moroccan dealer?
All I can said is I only buy meteorites from certain dealers, there is a reason
for that – think about it.

  
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Re: [meteorite-list] Beating a dead horse...etc.

List Dealers:

Please let me apologize to all the dealers who have been helpful to the
newbies.

Greg S.

From: carloselgua...@hotmail.com
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:58:33 -0800
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Beating a dead horse...etc.

Hi Greg,

Actually, all the dealers have been very helpful. The only one who thinks in
terms of competition is Howard Steffic who I believe is not a dealer.

Carl

Greg Stanley wrote:
All of this is pretty amazing. First of all, we ALL were newbies at some
point. Also, I think newbies buy alot of meteorites from dealers too. You
never know, a newbie now may spend 1000’s of $ over the next few years. Too
me it's very bad business to treat you customers poorly, or make fun of them.
That’s one wat to hurt sales. I joined this list to learn from the experts; if
their goal is to keep knowledge from me or look down at me, I think that's sad
and very disappointing. Then all this list becomes is a marketing site. Sure,
info about a new find or cold finds being confidential is understandable. But
what is wrong with helping someone with payment options to a Moroccan dealer?
All I can said is I only buy meteorites from certain dealers, there is a
reason
for that – think about it.

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[meteorite-list] Don't Check My Bag if You Please....

2009-11-15 Thread Kevin Kichinka

.. Mr. Customs Man. - Arlo Guthrie

Coming in from London
From over the pole
Flying in a big airliner
Chickens flying everywhere around the plane
Could we ever feel much finer?

Coming into Los Angeles
Bringing in a couple of keys

***

... of small-scale examples of the ultimate weapons of (planetary)
mass destruction - meteorites.

Thanks to list members, Adam, Darryl, Robert, and two Dave's for
sharing their experiences while hand-carrying mets on-board domestic
and international flights.

After my trips to the Tucson show (last visit- sadly way back in
2002), I'd return to Florida loaded with hand-grenade-size chondrites
and cannon-ball-size Irons in my hand-carried without a worry of
raising threat levels of terrorists tendencies to Code Red. But in
2009, I figured that the times they are a-changing (Dylan).

Since 2003 I've made thirty (30, yes) round trips to my home here in
Tambor de Alajuela, Costa Rica. I know the rules well (subject to
change without notice) even if American Airlines only emails me
frequent-flyer spam offers of Jamaican vacations but can't tell me
when they change a baggage allowance. If I be gellin', it's packed in
a checked bag.

I fly out of FLL (Fort Lauderdale) after driving two hours across
Alligator Alley in a rental car from Fort Myers. There's no easy home
return for disallowed items, i.e. bunker-busting meteorites. As I
learned last June when I tried (and eventually succeeded) in bringing
aboard a new quad-processor PC, even the metal-framed box used to
determine the acceptability of one's carry-on bag varies
airport-to-airport forget what's on the American Airlines website.
And nothing orally represented to you on the phone means anything at
the check-in counter.

The computer in its flimsy box was not a carry-on weight problem, and
three inches less than the 45 cubic allowance, but of the wrong
height dimension. Even if I paid $100 for checking a third bag, it was
impossible to check without the baggage-handlers destroying it. We
worked it out when I gave my day bag to a carry-on-free passenger to
hand to me once we boarded. I carried on the computer. It wasn't my
idea, the American Airlines check-in lady told me to do it that way.
It's not the heat, it's the stupidity.

Based on list members experiences, I don't believe one can routinely
transport meteorites on a plane without the threat of loss or serious
hassle so 'll have to settle for visitation rights back in Florida. Or
I guess I could hire DHL. Thanks for the info.



Meteorite Subject #2

While I would guess that all m-listers read the free, monthly,
Meteorite Times to learn about meteorites and absorb and consider the
worthy insights of its contributors, no one has yet mentioned the
stellar November issue that Paul Harris has just put together. It's
not to be missed.

Martin Horejsi's sensitive and well-researched article on the Sudan
fall New Halfa brings vivid color to this glossy-black, fusion
crusted chondrite.

Gentleman Jim Tobin's cleverly-written photo-essay of his recent
Mojave adventure with best-buddy Paul takes you along as a welcome
guest, ultimately blasting off for space measured in Oreo cookie
kilometers.

Norbert Classen posts a stunning photo of the world's largest Iron,
Hoba, en sitio.

Bob Verish teared me up with his well-written, intimate memoir
enhanced by touching personal photos describing some quality time he
spent with every one's friend, Richard.

John Kashuba, offers this month a photo album of breccias, topped with
NWA 2727, a mind-boggling lunar.

And a tip of the sombrero to Darryl for obtaining the Indonesian
ataxite Lovina. Click on Macovich.com from the Met Times opening ad
page, then Lovina, to view arguably the world's most incredible
Iron. I blinked in disbelief the first time I laid eyes on it. I love
Lovina.

The Meteorite Times they are always a-changin', and if you read all of
the issues you won't need a Weatherman to know which way the winds are
a-blowin' the bolide smoke trail.  Thanks to Paul and all those who
donate their time to produce this wonderful contribution and help keep
our meteoritic fires burning bright.

Oh look, a toucan flying over my house! It's nature's way of telling
me... to quit typing and go mow the lawn.

From Nine Degrees North,

Kevin
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[meteorite-list] Re : new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009; ; 21.25 cmt

2009-11-15 Thread habibi abdelaziz

mahalo gary,
yes its found crusty velvet and magnetic, means chondrite or what else
anyway will keep you and the list updated
aziz habibi
 font style=BACKGROUND-COLOR:#40; face=comic sans mshabibi aziz 
box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco 
phone. 21235576145 
fax.21235576170/font 



- Message d'origine 
De : Gary Fujihara fuj...@mac.com
À : habibi abdelaziz azizhab...@yahoo.com
Cc : meteorite list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Envoyé le : Dim 15 Novembre 2009, 17 h 30 min 23 s
Objet : Re: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009;; 21.25 cmt

Mahalo (thank you) Aziz for the updates of the recent fireball over Errachidia, 
Morocco.  Last year around this time was Tamdakht, and I am anxious to hear of 
any recovery of this potential new fall.

gary

On Nov 15, 2009, at 7:22 AM, habibi abdelaziz wrote:

 hi guys
 each time of this year october and november we have a fall, 
 it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise time 
 and space with a small incertitude of a month,
 
 it fells over rich 20 km north est,
 
 ITS CONFIRMED ?  more news to fallow,
 
 thanks
 aziz habibi
 
 
  font style=BACKGROUND-COLOR:#40; face=comic sans mshabibi aziz 
 box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco 
 phone. 21235576145 
 fax.21235576170/font 
 
 
 
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 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
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Gary Fujihara
AstroDay Institute
105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720
(808) 640-9161, fuj...@mac.com
http://astroday.net


  
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[meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have fallen in the NWA area this year!

2009-11-15 Thread Rob Lenssen


Congratulations with the RICH Fall Aziz!
Looking forward to the news to follow.

That makes it the SECOND meteorite known to have fallen in the area this 
year!


Remember my mail below?
More info on this one will follow, after classification results (including 
gamma spectroscopy dating) will become final.
Although a find (so far), first results point to an arrival at planet 
earth, last summer. It was found at a hundreds of kilometers distance from 
Rich.


Best regards,
Rob Lenssen
http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/314g/314g-NWA.html
http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/91g/91g-NWA.html


From: Rob Lenssen rlens...@planet.nl
To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: looking for classification advice for fresh find



Dear List,

Thank you for all your on- and off-List reactions.
In general your advice is, to have it classified, including terrestrial
dating, and to try to find as much as possible information on the find of
this stone.
I also have some references now, for the isotope terrestrial age
determination.

Thanks!
Rob



- Original Message - 
From: habibi abdelaziz azizhab...@yahoo.com

To: meteorite list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:22 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009;; 21.25 cmt


hi guys
each time of this year october and november we have a fall,
it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise time 
and space with a small incertitude of a month,


it fells over rich 20 km north est,

ITS CONFIRMED ? more news to fallow,

thanks
aziz habibi


font style=BACKGROUND-COLOR:#40; face=comic sans mshabibi aziz
box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco
phone. 21235576145
fax.21235576170/font



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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Competition

2009-11-15 Thread Dave Gheesling

For whatever its worth, I've disagreed with both Adam and Eric on many
occasions, and I'm quite certain both have disagreed with me before as well.
That said, I thought Adam's post was superb, though the semantics
(corporate involvement, to reference just one point) may have been
confusing.

Eric, you wrote: if corporate involvement means losing the personality and
integrity of the meteorite world through increased tampering by larger
groups and politically or profit motivated companies who might in future
times limit the publics access to meteorites then I'm not for that at all.

Not sure who the arbiter is for such matters, but let's assume it's you.
The IMCA would not exist if the integrity of the meteorite world were so
pristine, and there's no use jamming up bandwidth with examples.  And to
think that this arena understands marketing and packaging of these rarest of
rocks on Earth is, well, profoundly off base.

The we have the horrifying notion of profit.  Profits are derived from
offering products that prospective customers need or want at a price (that
exceeds the costs of providing the product) deemed a value by said
prospective customers.  In other words, they will, on their own volition,
pay the individual or entity for the act of procuring or developing then
providing said product.  Of course there is corporate corruption; yet there
is corruption everywhere...even in the world of meteorites (thank you IMCA
for addressing that).  Anyway, would such undoubtedly evil, profit-motivated
entities not prefer that public (read: customers) access to meteorites, if
anything, be expanded?

Then you wrote: My personal beliefs are that people should have free access
to the knowledge and information that meteorites and astronomy provides.

And...?

Then lastly: The word corporate to me means restrictive for profit...

Wikipedia?

Oh, goodness...

Dave
www.fallingrocks.com

-Original Message-
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Meteorites
USA
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:41 PM
To: Adam Hupe
Cc: Adam
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites  Competition

Hi Adam,

I'm curios what you mean by corporate involvement when it concerns
meteorites? With regards to the IMCA I am in partial agreement, and believe
they are a good organization, and needed in this industry. But some
restraint needs to be had with regard to the influence that these types of
groups have. Historically speaking such groups tend to lean toward their own
motives over time. There has been no organization in the history of man that
has not given in, at least partially, to the temptation such influence.

If you mean some sort of sponsorship of certain outreach and educational
programs geared toward teaching children and young adults about astronomy
and meteorites then I'm game. But if corporate involvement means losing the
personality and integrity of the meteorite world through increased tampering
by larger groups and politically or profit motivated companies who might in
future times limit the publics access to meteorites then I'm not for that at
all. This is a slippery slope...

My personal beliefs are that people should have free access to the knowledge
and information that meteorites and astronomy provides. The word corporate
to me means restrictive for profit, and an example would be the corporate
mentality of profit before people. I'm not necessarily referring to monetary
profit, but rather to the increased influence particular groups may have
over access to knowledge and information through the study of meteorites by
individuals and the limited access that some scientific institutions have
applied to certain collections. Collections that in my opinion every human
being on the planet should have access to. Not to fondle and ogle the
collection, but to view, study and learn.

I'm not attacking here, I'm simply voicing a concern and my belief in the
free access to knowledge that needs to be preserved.

Thanks for listening...

Regards,
Eric Wichman
Meteorites USA


Adam Hupe wrote:
 Dear List,


 I think it is crazy to talk about corporate greed and meteorites at the
same time. There are much simpler ways of earning money than chasing and
selling meteorites.  You have to have a love for these rocks to engage at
this level.  The overhead is astonishing while the returns are unpredictable
in an incredibly thin market.  Risk management doesn't exist. 

 I believe more corporate involvement is needed to push this avocation to
the next level.  The IMCA is a perfect example of a positive corporate
influence on a mostly misunderstood hobby. What lacks the most right now is
customer service and value added reselling. Most new dealers do not even
polish out the saw marks on slices, let alone polish both sides. Collectors
pay for both sides of a complete slice, not just one. It is disrespectful to
cut a meteorite and then not complete the job. A good polish is

Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Competition

2009-11-15 Thread Galactic Stone Ironworks

Well said Eric.  I agree 110%.

You said it much better than I did in my reply.

There are two sides to everything, especially in the realm of
business.  And that is a core issue here - we are not just dealing
with collecting, science, or trading.   There is a marriage of
personal collecting, science, and business for profit at work in the
meteorite world.  Different people are drawn to meteorites for a wide
variety of reasons.  No single group can represent all of those
interests.  Speaking just for myself, the IMCA does not represent me,
but I do appreciate the good work they do to maintain the integrity of
the market.

I don't like the idea of a bunch of suits sitting around a table and
contriving reasons to expand their influence.  Whenever that happens,
the average person is one who ends up losing out.  IMO, the  meteorite
market polices itself very well.  This List is a good example of that
fact - despite some of the complaints about some of the personalities
involved.  If a meteorite is stolen, it is announced quickly on this
List.  If a trader misrepresents a specimen or pulls a scam, this List
will hear about it. If the scammer is an IMCA member, then there is
recourse.  If the scammer uses PayPal, then there is recourse.  If the
scammer uses eBay, then there is recourse as well.  People who are
dishonest in their practices are quickly labelled as such and their
reputations are ruined in this small world of meteorites.   I can
think of at least 2 major meteorite players who have become persona
non grata during my short time of about 2 years on this List.   In
addition to this List, we have at least 2 other meteorite discussion
forums that are active with high traffic - and all of them are
populated by IMCA and MS members (and a bunch of good folks who aren't
members of either group).  The same people who are not welcome on this
List would find themselves unwelcome in those places as well.

I do think the meteorite market needs more consistency and structure,
but we don't need an invitation-only club to make the decisions.

Best regards and clear skies,

MikeG







On 11/15/09, Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote:
 Hi Adam,

 I'm curios what you mean by corporate involvement when it concerns
 meteorites? With regards to the IMCA I am in partial agreement, and
 believe they are a good organization, and needed in this industry. But
 some restraint needs to be had with regard to the influence that these
 types of groups have. Historically speaking such groups tend to lean
 toward their own motives over time. There has been no organization in
 the history of man that has not given in, at least partially, to the
 temptation such influence.

 If you mean some sort of sponsorship of certain outreach and educational
 programs geared toward teaching children and young adults about
 astronomy and meteorites then I'm game. But if corporate involvement
 means losing the personality and integrity of the meteorite world
 through increased tampering by larger groups and politically or profit
 motivated companies who might in future times limit the publics access
 to meteorites then I'm not for that at all. This is a slippery slope...

 My personal beliefs are that people should have free access to the
 knowledge and information that meteorites and astronomy provides. The
 word corporate to me means restrictive for profit, and an example
 would be the corporate mentality of profit before people. I'm not
 necessarily referring to monetary profit, but rather to the increased
 influence particular groups may have over access to knowledge and
 information through the study of meteorites by individuals and the
 limited access that some scientific institutions have applied to certain
 collections. Collections that in my opinion every human being on the
 planet should have access to. Not to fondle and ogle the collection, but
 to view, study and learn.

 I'm not attacking here, I'm simply voicing a concern and my belief in
 the free access to knowledge that needs to be preserved.

 Thanks for listening...

 Regards,
 Eric Wichman
 Meteorites USA


 Adam Hupe wrote:
 Dear List,


 I think it is crazy to talk about corporate greed and meteorites at the
 same time. There are much simpler ways of earning money than chasing and
 selling meteorites.  You have to have a love for these rocks to engage at
 this level.  The overhead is astonishing while the returns are
 unpredictable in an incredibly thin market.  Risk management doesn't
 exist.

 I believe more corporate involvement is needed to push this avocation to
 the next level.  The IMCA is a perfect example of a positive corporate
 influence on a mostly misunderstood hobby. What lacks the most right now
 is customer service and value added reselling. Most new dealers do not
 even polish out the saw marks on slices, let alone polish both sides.
 Collectors pay for both sides of a complete slice, not just one. It is
 disrespectful to cut a meteorite and then not

Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites Competition)

2009-11-15 Thread Dennis Miller


Como esta? Anne and List   Richard's book will always be a standard.
I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen Benedix's
new book Meteorites. These gals Drs put together a great book for
those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic and
very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like Kevin Kichinka's
The Art of Collecting Meteorites.  Now, if you aren't a Newbie you
will love McSween's Meteorites and Their Parent Planets. I use my copy
to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter what some say.
Have A Great Day!   Sorry Anne but, Think Snow!!!
Dennis
 


 From: impact...@aol.com
 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500
 To: mina...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites  
 Competition)

 Hello Mark and List,

 There is already a book that answers a lot of your questions, not all of
 them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of Meteorites by O. Richard Norton.
 I certainly would recommend getting it.

 Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion about helping new
 meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not see a response on the 
 List
 that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole lot better to email
 that person privately to ask for additional details to narrow down the
 problem, or simply to protect that person from some public embarassement. I 
 know I
 probably write 50 private emails for every one posted here.

 And then we are not all always glued to our computer (believe it or not!!),
 personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) to translate as
 quickly as possible so it will be available in Tucson.

 And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of having to answer every
 question that comes in on the IMCA questions email address. Also time
 consuming.

 And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!!
 Have a nice day.

 Anne M. Black
 _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/)
 _impact...@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com)
 Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc.
 _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/)



 In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain Standard Time,
 mina...@yahoo.com writes:
 Dear List,

 I think Adam has some great points. I think people forget how rare these
 things are. Prices often don't reflect that.

 I think people are more likely to give advice when a newbie asks
 something like, I've ruined several slices trying to do such  such, I've 
 tried A
 and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're paying their dues, but
 need a little advice which they can probably absorb quickly, saving an
 expert's time. The sad thing is that a few slices/specimens have been ruined
 (maybe from cheap, common NWA material, but very rare, finite material
 nonetheless).

 How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and your business vs.
 the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I suppose there are
 techniques which are common in parallel fields like lapidary, which one can 
 assume
 they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their time/wallet but also
 hard on meteorites). I would say one should be somewhat eager to help in
 that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but only make possible the
 damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes precious time, busy
 people lack.

 What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting some of these
 common things? The first person(s) with the ability to write said tome could
 profit from the book sales, and many novices would benefit from the tips.
 Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and the disclaimer given
 that you will have to experiment at the peril of your collection and finances 
 -
 or maybe find a willing mentor.

 The book would have to be relatively comprehensive - covering the common
 things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from a meteorite point of
 view (there might be possibility of tips like it's wise to practice this
 technique using sandstone(?) because it approximates XYZ meteorites very well,
 and you can rest assured that your learning curve isn't busting the bank).
 And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics like chemicals/oils
 to avoid, etc. Maybe some explanations of the different textures you will
 encounter in meteorites. Maybe a section on thin sections, epoxy plugs, and ?

 There might be room for general things like an explanation meteorite
 classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for documenting a 
 collection of
 specimens, a list of common vendors, etc. There are lots of interesting,
 useful things that could be added that I can't imagine. Of course, you would
 have to have environmental, health and safety concerns highlighted and
 repeated throughout the book!

 I know this may sound a little out in left field, but it would help with
 the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce poor, albeit,

[meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina Bays

2009-11-15 Thread oxytropidoceras

As I will discuss in a paper that I am preparing, Carolina Bays
are not at all difficult to date in terms of their age relative to the
Younger Dryas as documented in a number of published, peer-
reviewed papers and specific Cultural Resource Management 
reports. There is a huge amount of information available about 
either the age or relative age of the Carolina Bays to be found 
by carefully and persistently digging through the large number 
of publications about them and the geomorphology of the 
Atlantic coastal plain.

1. Radiocarbon dates, which are all minimum dates indicating
when ground water conditions allowed the preservation of
organic material within them. All the basal dates tells a person
is the last time that a bay was permanently filled with water
because of rising groundwater table, which is greatly influenced
by rises and falls in eustatic sea level. Despite the fact that the 
radiocarbon dates are only minimum dates, they clearly 
demonstrate that the Carolina Bays predate the Younger Dryas
event.

2. optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) dating is now
a well established and proven dating method, which gives
credible dates for the age of these landforms. A person might
argued for mxing of older and younger sand, except that
Dr. Ivester, whom I personally discussed this matter with
on the GSA 2008 Meeting sand mantle, biomantle, mima
mound field trip told me that he did not find the anomalies
in the raw data for his dates that such mixing would create.
Also, a person can always use single-grain OSL dating to
unequivocally test for such mixing. Given that Dr. Ivester is
a very experienced Quaternary geologist, the claim he dated
the wrong material, in my opinion is the type of lame excuse
that I hear from Young Earth creationists when the data 
refutes what they want to believe is the truth. If a person is
 going to make this claim, they need to back it up with hard
and well-documented facts for it to be credible in any 
manner at all.

3. the pollen records from several Carolina Bays clearly
go back to the last Glacial Maximum and in one bay,
back to Oxygen Isotope Stage 5a. In many more Carolina 
Bays, the paleoenvironmental records start during full 
glacial conditions, several thousands of years before the
hypothesized Younger Dryas event. Common sense and 
basic stratigraphic principles dictate that the Carolina Bays 
containing these records existed before any hypothesized 
Younger Dryas events as it is physically impossible for 
any sort of exterrestrial event / impact to create craters 
thousands of years before it occurs. It is impossible for
mixing of sediment to have produced these records as
the paleoenvironmental records recovered from Carolina 
Bays correlate precisely in time and nature to palynological 
records from non-Carolina Bay lakes and swamps in the 
same area as a Carolina Bay.

4. Cross-cutting relationships between well dated fluvial
terraces (lacking Carolina Bays) cut and inset into older
terraces and the Carolina Bays they exhibit establish the
minimum age of Carolina Bays. Similarly the superposition
dunes fields, which formed during the Late Glacial
Maximum and lacking Carolina Bays, upon Carolina
Bays that they partial bury, establish the preYounger
Dryas age of the Carolina Bays. Both cross-cutting
relationships and superposition is documented in great
detail by LIDAR DEMs available for large parts of the
Atlantic Coast.

5. Stratified archaeological sites demonstrates how
Carolina Bays have been modified after the Younger
Dryas. Carolina Bays on restricted government
reservations indicate how historic argriculture and
urban development have modified Carolina Bays
during the last few decades by comparison.

6. All the presence of hypothesized impactites filling
the Carolina Bays indicates is that preexisting Carolina
Bays was filled by material from this hypothesized impact. 
The presence of hypothetical impactites within the loose 
soils of coastal plain sands forming the rim of Carolina 
Bays indicate is that bioturbation mixed material falling 
on the surface of into the loose sand forming the rims. 
The churning of surface materials deep into thick sandy 
epipedons is a well documented and well known process.

7. In the northern extent of the distribution of Carolina 
Bays, their orientation varies by over 120 degrees and based
upon cross-cutting relationships and great differences in
the degree of degradation of their rims strong indication
of multiple generations of Carolina Bays having formed at
greatly different time. The claim by Firestone that both the
Carolina Bays and playa and other lakes point at a central
point is based him having overlooked a significant amount
of orientation data that both subtly and grossly contradicts 
and ultimately refutes this claim of his.

8. Although it is still in the realm of speculation, there 
appears to be evidence that indicates that the Carolina Bays
in the Midlothian area are much older than the typical

Re: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009; ; 21.25 cmt

2009-11-15 Thread michael cottingham


That is Great News  Go Get em!

Michael Cottingham
On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:22 AM, habibi abdelaziz wrote:


hi guys
each time of this year october and november we have a fall,
it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a  
precise time and space with a small incertitude of a month,


it fells over rich 20 km north est,

ITS CONFIRMED ?  more news to fallow,

thanks
aziz habibi


 font style=BACKGROUND-COLOR:#40; face=comic sans mshabibi  
aziz

box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco
phone. 21235576145
fax.21235576170/font



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[meteorite-list] AD - Two museum pieces ending today

2009-11-15 Thread Rob Wesel


Hello all

Just two pieces this week 
Don't be afraid to best offer the 2kg Brenham


http://shop.ebay.com/nakhladog/m.html

Rob Wesel
www.nakhladogmeteorites.com
www.facebook.com/nakhladog
--
We are the music makers...
and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
Willy Wonka, 1971


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Re: [meteorite-list] AD - Two museum pieces ending today

2009-11-15 Thread Matthias Bärmann


Hello Rob,

your impact melt slice starry night:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkvLq0TYiwI

and

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/VanGogh-starry_night.jpg

Best,

Matthias B.

- Original Message - 
From: Rob Wesel r...@nakhladogmeteorites.com

To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:11 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] AD - Two museum pieces ending today



Hello all

Just two pieces this week 
Don't be afraid to best offer the 2kg Brenham


http://shop.ebay.com/nakhladog/m.html

Rob Wesel
www.nakhladogmeteorites.com
www.facebook.com/nakhladog
--
We are the music makers...
and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
Willy Wonka, 1971


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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Competition

2009-11-15 Thread mafer

I liked the comment about suits siting around a board table like is done
with oil and gold. That is such an one sided way of doing commerce (some
old fuddy siting at a table with his country's flag in his hand agreeing to
pay x dollars for a commodity that he makes so much anyway, he could care
less how it affects those at the bottom of the wage scales, where is the
free enterprise, yet men just like this run our lives. Keeping that
mentality out of meteorites goes a long long way, and dealing with the
principles (those who actually find the meteorites) will do more for
keeping the science and hobby alive than most could see. I find it harsh
and wrong to pay a middleman a high price when he has undercut or misled
the finder. By the same token, without some middlemen, we wouldn't have
many finds and they would have been dumped on the ground as a waste of time
and the strewn field forgotten about.

Keeping things real and in perspective are important.

Mark Ferguson



On November 15, 7:03 pm Galactic Stone  Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com 
wrote:

 Well said Eric.  I agree 110%.

 You said it much better than I did in my reply.

 There are two sides to everything, especially in the realm of
 business.  And that is a core issue here - we are not just dealing
 with collecting, science, or trading.   There is a marriage of
 personal collecting, science, and business for profit at work in the
 meteorite world.  Different people are drawn to meteorites for a wide
 variety of reasons.  No single group can represent all of those
 interests.  Speaking just for myself, the IMCA does not represent me,
 but I do appreciate the good work they do to maintain the integrity of
 the market.

 I don't like the idea of a bunch of suits sitting around a table and
 contriving reasons to expand their influence.  Whenever that happens,
 the average person is one who ends up losing out.  IMO, the  meteorite
 market polices itself very well.  This List is a good example of that
 fact - despite some of the complaints about some of the personalities
 involved.  If a meteorite is stolen, it is announced quickly on this
 List.  If a trader misrepresents a specimen or pulls a scam, this List
 will hear about it. If the scammer is an IMCA member, then there is
 recourse.  If the scammer uses PayPal, then there is recourse.  If the
 scammer uses eBay, then there is recourse as well.  People who are
 dishonest in their practices are quickly labelled as such and their
 reputations are ruined in this small world of meteorites.   I can
 think of at least 2 major meteorite players who have become persona
 non grata during my short time of about 2 years on this List.   In
 addition to this List, we have at least 2 other meteorite discussion
 forums that are active with high traffic - and all of them are
 populated by IMCA and MS members (and a bunch of good folks who aren't
 members of either group).  The same people who are not welcome on this
 List would find themselves unwelcome in those places as well.

 I do think the meteorite market needs more consistency and structure,
 but we don't need an invitation-only club to make the decisions.

 Best regards and clear skies,

 MikeG







 On 11/15/09, Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote:
   Hi Adam,
 
   I'm curios what you mean by corporate involvement when it
   concerns meteorites? With regards to the IMCA I am in partial
   agreement, and believe they are a good organization, and needed in
   this industry. But some restraint needs to be had with regard to
   the influence that these types of groups have. Historically
   speaking such groups tend to lean toward their own motives over
   time. There has been no organization in the history of man that
   has not given in, at least partially, to the temptation such
  influence.
   If you mean some sort of sponsorship of certain outreach and
   educational programs geared toward teaching children and young
   adults about astronomy and meteorites then I'm game. But if
   corporate involvement means losing the personality and integrity
   of the meteorite world through increased tampering by larger
   groups and politically or profit motivated companies who might in
   future times limit the publics access to meteorites then I'm not
  for that at all. This is a slippery slope...
   My personal beliefs are that people should have free access to the
   knowledge and information that meteorites and astronomy provides.
   The word corporate to me means restrictive for profit, and an
   example would be the corporate mentality of profit before people.
   I'm not necessarily referring to monetary profit, but rather to
   the increased influence particular groups may have over access to
   knowledge and information through the study of meteorites by
   individuals and the limited access that some scientific
   institutions have applied to certain collections. Collections that
   in my opinion every human being on the planet should have

Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Competition


Hi Dave, List, Adam and all who care,

Let me be absolutely clear in my statement and meaning so as no to 
confuse anyone about my beliefs and views on the IMCA, corporations, 
profit, and the influence that such entities have on the meteorite world 
and access to the knowledge it provides people about our universe.


Profit is not always monetary. In fact profit can be and is power and 
influence based on what the intrinsic cost of input versus what's 
returned, whether that be a trade in time investment, or a tangible 
product. Everything has value, and more importantly that perceived value 
is what makes the world go round.


I support the IMCA and what they stand for and have respect and 
admiration for the people who created it and work hard to build it 
everyday. I have many friends and business colleagues who are members of 
the IMCA and members of the board. I have been invited many times to 
become a member and have politely and respectfully declined to join at 
this time. This is not to say that I will not ever become a member, nor 
does it say that I dislike the IMCA at all or even worse, view them in a 
negative light, which I do not. I am NOT an arbiter for corporate 
sponsorship, or the IMCA, nor do I subscribe to the view that anyone 
should be. The integrity of the meteorite world is based upon the 
integrity of individuals within this community, and NOT any one group.


Your statement Dave:

...'The word corporate to me means restrictive for profit...'... 
Wikipedia? Oh, goodness...


No, that's not Wikipedia at all, that's my view, and just what I said it 
was. ;)


There is nothing horrifying about profit, and if I understand your post 
correctly and if you were simply being facetious, I would agree. The 
issue is not profit, the issue is about at the very least the temptation 
of influencing restrictive rules or guidelines that limits public access 
to knowledge and physical display of specimens.


...Then you wrote: My personal beliefs are that people should have 
free access to the knowledge and information that meteorites and 
astronomy provides.


And...? ...

To answer your simple question, I will give a simple answer. I've 
already said it.


Don't limit or restrict access or use the power and influence of a group 
to control something which should be freely available knowledge.


Let other enjoy the meteorites too... Share.

This has all been hashed out in the past, and I'm not trying to bring 
something up that's already been discussed at length, I'm not attacking 
anyone or any group, I'm simply saying I don't like group power because 
they tend to forget about the little guy, whether it be purposefully or 
by unintentional means.


Respectfully of course...

Regards,
Eric Wichman
Meteorites USA






Dave Gheesling wrote:

For whatever its worth, I've disagreed with both Adam and Eric on many
occasions, and I'm quite certain both have disagreed with me before as well.
That said, I thought Adam's post was superb, though the semantics
(corporate involvement, to reference just one point) may have been
confusing.

Eric, you wrote: if corporate involvement means losing the personality and
integrity of the meteorite world through increased tampering by larger
groups and politically or profit motivated companies who might in future
times limit the publics access to meteorites then I'm not for that at all.

Not sure who the arbiter is for such matters, but let's assume it's you.
The IMCA would not exist if the integrity of the meteorite world were so
pristine, and there's no use jamming up bandwidth with examples.  And to
think that this arena understands marketing and packaging of these rarest of
rocks on Earth is, well, profoundly off base.

The we have the horrifying notion of profit.  Profits are derived from
offering products that prospective customers need or want at a price (that
exceeds the costs of providing the product) deemed a value by said
prospective customers.  In other words, they will, on their own volition,
pay the individual or entity for the act of procuring or developing then
providing said product.  Of course there is corporate corruption; yet there
is corruption everywhere...even in the world of meteorites (thank you IMCA
for addressing that).  Anyway, would such undoubtedly evil, profit-motivated
entities not prefer that public (read: customers) access to meteorites, if
anything, be expanded?

Then you wrote: My personal beliefs are that people should have free access
to the knowledge and information that meteorites and astronomy provides.

And...?

Then lastly: The word corporate to me means restrictive for profit...

Wikipedia?

Oh, goodness...

Dave
www.fallingrocks.com

-Original Message-
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Meteorites
USA
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:41 PM
To: Adam Hupe
Cc: Adam
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites  Competition

Hi Adam,

I'm

Re: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have fallen in the NWA area this year!

2009-11-15 Thread Melanie Matthews


 990ed361d20f4ce58358e25f62e8d...@eigenaarnjeqjy
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0


Very fresh=2C great stuff!=20


---
Melanie
IMCA: 2975
eBay: metmel2775
Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09

Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what=
 you're gonna get!







 From: rlens...@planet.nl
 To: azizhab...@yahoo.com=3b Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sun=2C 15 Nov 2009 20:22:15 +0100
 Subject: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have falle=
n in the NWA area this year!

 Congratulations with the RICH Fall Aziz!
 Looking forward to the news to follow.

 That makes it the SECOND meteorite known to have fallen in the area this
 year!

 Remember my mail below?
 More info on this one will follow=2C after classification results (includ=
ing
 gamma spectroscopy dating) will become final.
 Although a find (so far)=2C first results point to an arrival at planet
 earth=2C last summer. It was found at a hundreds of kilometers distance f=
rom
 Rich.

 Best regards=2C
 Rob Lenssen
 http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/314g/314g-NWA.html
 http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/91g/91g-NWA.html

 -=
---
 From: Rob Lenssen=20
 To:=20
 Sent: Wednesday=2C August 19=2C 2009 8:41 PM
 Subject: Re: looking for classification advice for fresh find


 Dear List=2C

 Thank you for all your on- and off-List reactions.
 In general your advice is=2C to have it classified=2C including terrestr=
ial
 dating=2C and to try to find as much as possible information on the find=
 of
 this stone.
 I also have some references now=2C for the isotope terrestrial age
 determination.

 Thanks!
 Rob
 -=
---

 - Original Message -
 From: habibi abdelaziz=20
 To: meteorite list=20
 Sent: Sunday=2C November 15=2C 2009 6:22 PM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009=3B=3B 21.25 c=
mt


 hi guys
 each time of this year october and november we have a fall=2C
 it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise tim=
e
 and space with a small incertitude of a month=2C

 it fells over rich 20 km north est=2C

 ITS CONFIRMED ? more news to fallow=2C

 thanks
 aziz habibi


 habibi aziz
 box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco
 phone. 21235576145
 fax.21235576170



 __
 http://www.meteoritecentral.com
 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list

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 http://www.meteoritecentral.com
 Meteorite-list mailing list
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Re: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have fallen in the NWA area this year!

does anyone know why this extra text appears in some emails?  (ie Melanie's 
email below)

 From: spacewoman2...@hotmail.com
 To: rlens...@planet.nl; azizhab...@yahoo.com; 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:46:48 -0800
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have 
 fallen in the NWA area this year!

 990ed361d20f4ce58358e25f62e8d...@eigenaarnjeqjy
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 MIME-Version: 1.0

 Very fresh=2C great stuff!=20

 ---
 Melanie
 IMCA: 2975
 eBay: metmel2775
 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09

 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what=
 you're gonna get!

 From: rlens...@planet.nl
 To: azizhab...@yahoo.com=3b Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sun=2C 15 Nov 2009 20:22:15 +0100
 Subject: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have falle=
 n in the NWA area this year!

 Congratulations with the RICH Fall Aziz!
 Looking forward to the news to follow.

 That makes it the SECOND meteorite known to have fallen in the area this
 year!

 Remember my mail below?
 More info on this one will follow=2C after classification results (includ=
 ing
 gamma spectroscopy dating) will become final.
 Although a find (so far)=2C first results point to an arrival at planet
 earth=2C last summer. It was found at a hundreds of kilometers distance f=
 rom
 Rich.

 Best regards=2C
 Rob Lenssen
 http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/314g/314g-NWA.html
 http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/91g/91g-NWA.html

 -=
 ---
 From: Rob Lenssen=20
 To:=20
 Sent: Wednesday=2C August 19=2C 2009 8:41 PM
 Subject: Re: looking for classification advice for fresh find

 Dear List=2C

 Thank you for all your on- and off-List reactions.
 In general your advice is=2C to have it classified=2C including terrestr=
 ial
 dating=2C and to try to find as much as possible information on the find=
 of
 this stone.
 I also have some references now=2C for the isotope terrestrial age
 determination.

 Thanks!
 Rob
 -=
 ---

 - Original Message -
 From: habibi abdelaziz=20
 To: meteorite list=20
 Sent: Sunday=2C November 15=2C 2009 6:22 PM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009=3B=3B 21.25 c=
 mt

 hi guys
 each time of this year october and november we have a fall=2C
 it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise tim=
 e
 and space with a small incertitude of a month=2C

 it fells over rich 20 km north est=2C

 ITS CONFIRMED ? more news to fallow=2C

 thanks
 aziz habibi

 habibi aziz
 box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco
 phone. 21235576145
 fax.21235576170

 __
 http://www.meteoritecentral.com
 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list

 __
 http://www.meteoritecentral.com
 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
 =20
 _
 Eligible CDN College  University students can upgrade to Windows 7 before =
 Jan 3 for only $39.99. Upgrade now!
 http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9691819=
 __
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 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009; ; 21.25 cmt

2009-11-15 Thread mafer

could there be a cloud of objects that Earth's orbit flys through?

On November 15, 5:33 pm michael cottingham mikew...@gilanet.com wrote:
 That is Great News  Go Get em!

 Michael Cottingham
 On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:22 AM, habibi abdelaziz wrote:

   hi guys
   each time of this year october and november we have a fall,
   it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a
   precise time and space with a small incertitude of a month,
 
   it fells over rich 20 km north est,
 
   ITS CONFIRMED ?  more news to fallow,
 
   thanks
   aziz habibi
 
 
font style=BACKGROUND-COLOR:#40; face=comic sans
   mshabibi aziz
   box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco
   phone. 21235576145
   fax.21235576170/font
 
 
 
   __
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   Meteorite-list mailing list
   Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
   http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list

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 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have fallen in the NWA area this year!

2009-11-15 Thread Dennis Miller

Greg,You, Melanie, me, and others are cursed with Hotmail crap.
I find this happens with plain text, rich text, any text. I don't see 
this happening with any other email service.
Dennis

 From: stanleygr...@hotmail.com
 To: spacewoman2...@hotmail.com; rlens...@planet.nl; azizhab...@yahoo.com; 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:50:44 -0800
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have 
 fallen in the NWA area this year!

 does anyone know why this extra text appears in some emails? (ie Melanie's 
 email below)

 From: spacewoman2...@hotmail.com
 To: rlens...@planet.nl; azizhab...@yahoo.com; 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:46:48 -0800
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have 
 fallen in the NWA area this year!

 990ed361d20f4ce58358e25f62e8d...@eigenaarnjeqjy
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 MIME-Version: 1.0

 Very fresh=2C great stuff!=20

 ---
 Melanie
 IMCA: 2975
 eBay: metmel2775
 Known on SkyRock Cafe as SpaceCollector09

 Unclassified meteorites are like a box of chocolates... you never know what=
 you're gonna get!

 From: rlens...@planet.nl
 To: azizhab...@yahoo.com=3b Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sun=2C 15 Nov 2009 20:22:15 +0100
 Subject: [meteorite-list] That makes it two meteorites know to have falle=
 n in the NWA area this year!

 Congratulations with the RICH Fall Aziz!
 Looking forward to the news to follow.

 That makes it the SECOND meteorite known to have fallen in the area this
 year!

 Remember my mail below?
 More info on this one will follow=2C after classification results (includ=
 ing
 gamma spectroscopy dating) will become final.
 Although a find (so far)=2C first results point to an arrival at planet
 earth=2C last summer. It was found at a hundreds of kilometers distance f=
 rom
 Rich.

 Best regards=2C
 Rob Lenssen
 http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/314g/314g-NWA.html
 http://home.planet.nl/~rlenssen/91g/91g-NWA.html

 -=
 ---
 From: Rob Lenssen=20
 To:=20
 Sent: Wednesday=2C August 19=2C 2009 8:41 PM
 Subject: Re: looking for classification advice for fresh find

 Dear List=2C

 Thank you for all your on- and off-List reactions.
 In general your advice is=2C to have it classified=2C including terrestr=
 ial
 dating=2C and to try to find as much as possible information on the find=
 of
 this stone.
 I also have some references now=2C for the isotope terrestrial age
 determination.

 Thanks!
 Rob
 -=
 ---

 - Original Message -
 From: habibi abdelaziz=20
 To: meteorite list=20
 Sent: Sunday=2C November 15=2C 2009 6:22 PM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] new fall RICH friday 13 / 11/2009=3B=3B 21.25 c=
 mt

 hi guys
 each time of this year october and november we have a fall=2C
 it look it's a cyclique falls with the rotation of earth in a precise tim=
 e
 and space with a small incertitude of a month=2C

 it fells over rich 20 km north est=2C

 ITS CONFIRMED ? more news to fallow=2C

 thanks
 aziz habibi

 habibi aziz
 box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco
 phone. 21235576145
 fax.21235576170

 __
 http://www.meteoritecentral.com
 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list

 __
 http://www.meteoritecentral.com
 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
 =20
 _
 Eligible CDN College  University students can upgrade to Windows 7 before =
 Jan 3 for only $39.99. Upgrade now!
 http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9691819=
 __
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 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina Bays: Paul H: Rich Murray 2009.11.15

2009-11-15 Thread Rich Murray

Re: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina Bays: Paul H: Rich 
Murray 2009.11.15

http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.htm
Sunday, November 15, 2009
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/32

Hello all,

I am very appreciative of Paul's conscientious, careful
contributions, based on civility, reason, and public evidence.

Will there be many confirmations of ET markers in classic
Carolina Bays?  And in similar clusters in many parts of the
world?

Will a single place and time be found for a single or multiple
sources, or multiple sources with multiple places and times?

Are data already available for mineral elements and isotopes
at classic and possible Carolina Bay type craters?

I find cracked,  broken, overturned, and tossed bedrocks
up to 2 m size at many craters near Santa Fe, New Mexico.
Many of these rocks have white, grey, greenish, red-brown,
and black glazes or coatings, from 0.1 to 10 cm thick, even
curled around the edge of bedrock layers for 10 cm,
often with rough surface textures with little wind or water
erosion.

Also ordinary white quartz rocks up to 20 cm, glazed on one
side with what appears as 0.2 to 3 cm melted quartz,
sometimes with a yellow tinge.

And 3 m thick level sandstone layers, exposed roadcuts
about 30 m above the landscape, that have up to 10 cm white
and gray mineral layers that appear to have been plastered on
the vertical surfaces.

I will glad to show visitors my samples, and to give tours of
accessible sites -- many right beside public roads.

I will be happy to search for sites with Google Earth for free
within 80 km of any location, so they can be studied by those
who live near the center coordinates.

Best,  Rich Murray

exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al,
two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3
upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14
http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.htm
Saturday, November 14, 2009
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/31

nanodiamond evidence for 12,900 BP Clovis extinction impact,
Santa Rosa Island, discussion on Scientific American website,
Carolina Bay type craters east of Las Vegas, NM:
Rich Murray 2009.09.15
http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.htm
Friday, July 24, 2009
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/28

widespread Carolina Bay type craters from Clovis comet
12,900 Ya BP? -- 0.7 M long NS crater with fractured
red sandstone on SW rim, CR C 53A, 20 miles E of
Las Vegas, NM: Rich Murray 2009.06.08
http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.htm
Monday, June 8, 2009
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/27
_


- Original Message - 
From: oxytropidoce...@cox.net

To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:46 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina Bays
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As I will discuss in a paper that I am preparing, Carolina Bays
are not at all difficult to date in terms of their age relative to the
Younger Dryas as documented in a number of published, peer-
reviewed papers and specific Cultural Resource Management
reports. There is a huge amount of information available about
either the age or relative age of the Carolina Bays to be found
by carefully and persistently digging through the large number
of publications about them and the geomorphology of the
Atlantic coastal plain.

1. Radiocarbon dates are all minimum dates indicating
when ground water conditions allowed the preservation of
organic material within them. All the basal dates tells a person
is the last time that a bay was permanently filled with water
because of a rising groundwater table, which is greatly influenced
by rises and falls in eustatic sea level. Despite the fact that the
radiocarbon dates are only minimum dates, they clearly
demonstrate that the Carolina Bays predate the Younger Dryas
event.

2. Optically Stimulated Luminescence (OSL) dating is now
a well established and proven dating method, which gives
credible dates for the age of these landforms. A person might
argued for mxing of older and younger sand, except that
Dr. Ivester, whom I personally discussed this matter with
on the GSA 2008 Meeting sand mantle, biomantle, mima
mound field trip told me that he did not find the anomalies
in the raw data for his dates that such mixing would create.
Also, a person can always use single-grain OSL dating to
unequivocally test for such mixing. Given that Dr. Ivester is
a very experienced Quaternary geologist, the claim he dated
the wrong material, in my opinion is the type of lame excuse
that I hear from Young Earth creationists when the data
refutes what they want to believe is the truth. If a person is
going to make this claim, they need to back it up with hard

[meteorite-list] AD: Auctions ending in an hour or so... Gibeon Egg, Sikhote Alin stamp, Henbury, LDG, Moldavite and more...

2009-11-15 Thread Leigh Anne DelRay

Here are some cool auctions, that are ending soon, they are mine, so
buy lots and lots of stuff.


http://shop.ebay.com/callistodesigns/m.html?_trkparms=65%253A10%257C66%253A4%257C39%253A1_ipg=_sticky=1_trksid=p3911.c0.m14_sop=1_sc=1


Here is a beautiful Libyan Desert Glass:
http://cgi.ebay.com/GEM-Libyan-Desert-Glass-Meteorite-Impactite-Tektite-NR_W0QQitemZ250523680579QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a545fff43

Here is Sikhote Alin with a cool commemorative stamp:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sikhote-Alin-Iron-Meteorite-collectible-Russian-Stamp_W0QQitemZ260502367071QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca726ab5f

Here is a nice little Henbury:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Henbury-Iron-Meteorite-Australia-Complete-Individual-NR_W0QQitemZ250525967134QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a5482e31e

Here is a nice little Gibeon Crystal
http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibeon-Iron-Meteorite-Crystal-Complete-Individual-NR_W0QQitemZ250525967628QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a5482e50c

Here is a NICE ETCHED Gibeon Egg:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibeon-Iron-Meteorite-ETCHED-CARVED-EGG-Widmanstatten_W0QQitemZ250525971651QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a5482f4c3




Have a good day meteorite people!
-Leigh Anne
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites Competition - Rebels without a cause??

2009-11-15 Thread Martin Altmann

Hi there,

I feel like so often today somewhat slow in mind,
and would ask you for some help.

I'm reading in that discussion, that here would dealers, individuals, big
players or whoever,
would treat collectors, newbies or whomever so bad, would prevent
information, meteorites or whatever.

And half of the responses is, yes, yes exactly - and the others, yes, but
there are at least a few good guys left.

And that action has to be taken, to improve the situation.

Now I read about ominous groups and the danger that these could have an
influence on restricting the access to, yah to what? And how? (And why?)
And that we need new structures of..of?

Please, can you give me some concrete examples?
Or what you mean at all?
Some beef please?


Because I have difficulties to understand, what this discussion is about.

All which comes to my mind is that once a newbie was unhappy, because the
discoverer of a new strewnfield didn't invite him to hunt with him there.

And else? Maybe that a few individuals among the scientists, who don't know,
how meteorites are recovered, made the wrong laws - or what do you mean?

It's meant seriously, not ironically.

Thanks in advance,
Martin

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[meteorite-list] Nininger The Vatican


An eye on the sky, one on the ground
By Christopher Cokinos
Posted: 11/15/2009 01:00:00 AM MST
http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_13776988

Meteorite expert Harvey Nininger. (Courtesy of the American Meteorite 
Laboratory Photo Collection, Collections Research for Museums, Denver )


The International Year of Astronomy is drawing to a close, and it's been 
marked by some notable passages. We've celebrated the 400th anniversary 
of Galileo's first view through a telescope, and we've looked back 40 
years to the first Apollo moon landing.


This month, another anniversary has taken place, but one quite obscure 
except to some dealers, collectors and researchers of meteorites. 
Eighty-six years ago, on Nov. 9, 1923, a then-unknown, middle-aged 
science professor named Harvey Nininger was walking home from work in 
McPherson, Kan. Suddenly, he saw a huge meteor so vivid that 
eyewitnesses would remember the event for years to come.


The fireball would also change the course of Harvey's life and the 
course of science. Nininger anticipated an insight about life and death 
on our planet decades before it became widely accepted by researchers 
and then became the stuff of Hollywood blockbusters.


When the meteor vanished from his view on that chilly evening, Nininger 
marked the sidewalk where he stood. He knew that if he received enough 
reports from eyewitnesses, he could triangulate their accounts and have 
a rough sense of where meteorites might have fallen. (Meteors are the 
passage of burning objects from space into our atmosphere; meteorites 
are the heavy, usually dark rocks that sometimes fall from them to Earth.)


Nininger's idea was a radical one. No one had attempted to search for 
meteorites where none had been seen to fall, and a leading geologist 
once told Nininger that if he spent the rest of his life looking for 
meteorites he might find one. The geologist was wrong.


Though Nininger didn't find any space rocks from that Nov. 9 fireball, 
in the years ahead he'd find hundreds from other falls. Nininger 
believed that more meteorites could be discovered from unwitnessed or 
forgotten falls by simply scouring the countryside. He was proven right 
on that count as well.


After quitting his $3,000-a-year teaching job at McPherson College 
(during the Great Depression!), Nininger moved his family to Denver, 
where in 1930 he became a part-time curator of meteorites at the 
Colorado Museum of Natural History. The museum paid him just $600 a 
year, so Nininger had to rely on his obsession and his wits to make a 
living at buying, selling, finding, displaying, popularizing and 
researching meteorites. No one had done anything like it before in the 
study of space rocks, which was then a backwater of geology.


With help from Denver truck magnate Dean Gillespie, Nininger 
criss-crossed the continent, from Saskatoon to Chihuahua City, 
discovering newly fallen meteorites and ones that had languished in 
ditches, corn fields, even attics. He proved that iron meteorites were 
not the most common ones to fall, but that they were selected for 
discovery because they look so alien and weigh so much. He recovered 
1,200 pounds of a rare stony-iron meteorite from a Kansas field.


When most people still thought craters on the moon had been formed by 
volcanoes, Nininger and a few others begged to differ, suggesting they 
must have formed by the impacts of meteorites. He was right once more. 
And 40 years before scientists would link the extinction of the 
dinosaurs to an asteroid's collision with the planet, Nininger suggested 
that cosmic impacts could lead to global mass extinctions.


A tireless worker, Nininger did find time during his Denver years to be 
active with the Boy Scouts and take his children to concerts. They 
watched the colored lights of the fountain at City Park, recalls 
Nininger's daughter, Doris Banks. Winter car trips meant that Harvey 
would warm up iron meteorites at home, then wrap them in blankets to 
place on the floorboard, thus keeping everyone toasty.


I suppose not many Denverites today remember the name Harvey Nininger, 
but until World War II he was one of the city's most prominent 
scientific citizens. He was also known nationally from profiles in 
publications like The Saturday Evening Post.


Eventually, he moved his family to Arizona, where he opened the world's 
only museum of meteorites and where his pursuits continued, at times, to 
get him in hot water. For example, Nininger didn't have a Ph.D., but he 
when he was awarded an honorary doctorate he began calling himself Dr. 
Nininger, at least on his letterhead.


His love of meteorites became a family affair. His son-in-law, Glenn 
Huss, took over Nininger's American Meteorite Laboratory in Denver for 
many years. Glenn's son, Gary, has become one of the world's best-known 
researchers of meteorites and the solar system.


Tonight, go outside and watch the sky for a meteor. Look for the Leonid 
meteor shower

Re: [meteorite-list] Tunguska rates

2009-11-15 Thread E.P. Grondine

Bonsoir Arnauld - 

When I stumbled into Clube and Napier's work and others in 1997 was when I 
realized that the NASA rates from asteroid population were too low. Its 
cometary and comet fragment impacts, and the small fragments are damned hard to 
find.

I think Shoemaker's final paper out of Canada had better rates. The ones that I 
came up with were just from historical/myth-historical materials, but with 
archaeological confirmation - i.e. for the YD impacts there's quarry usage data.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, The Tricottet Collection tricottetc...@live.com wrote:

 From: The Tricottet Collection tricottetc...@live.com
 Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Tunguska rates
 To: E.P. Grondine epgrond...@yahoo.com, MeteoriteList 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 3:01 AM
 
 Hi E.P. et al., 
 
 actually, what the journalist of BI wrote is inaccurate.
 You can read in our report that we used 1 per 1000 years as
 our preferred value, following the most up-to-date
 frequency-size distribution [Brown et al, 2002], but we also
 tested 1 per 200 years [Shoemaker, 1983] and noted that the
 rate could be far higher if hypotheses from geomythology and
 related were to be verified.
 
 Best,
 
 ArnaudM
 
 
 
  Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:20:11 -0800
  From: epgrond...@yahoo.com
  To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
  Subject: [meteorite-list] Tunguska rates
  
  Hi Arnauld, all, 
  
  The problem is that Tunguska type blasts have been
 occuring recently (for the last 5,000 years) at a rate of 1
 per 100 years, not 1 per 1,000. Whether this represents a
 short term phenonmenon or the long term rate is not
 currently known.
  
  I used to put together catalogues of known and
 suspected impacts, you may want to google that, and if you
 have not bought a copy of Man and Impact in the Americas
 yet, well, it is the best available recent impact rate data
 for the Americas. 
  
  E.P. Grondine
  Man and Impact in the Americas
  
  
        
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 _
 Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock
 star.
 http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009


  
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[meteorite-list] LCROSS Alien?


Hi List,

LCROSS mission: Aliens are watching...

Alien face in ejecta plume.
http://www.meteoritesusa.com/fun/LCROSS-Alien.jpg

Some Photoshop fun for ya!

Enjoy... ;)

Regards,
Eric Wichman
Meteorites USA
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Re: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina Bays: Paul H: Rich Murray 2009.11.15

2009-11-15 Thread E.P. Grondine

Hi Rich, Paul - 

I think that they're looking at secondary craaters from ice chunks thrown out 
by original imapcts. While the Shawnee remembered multiple comet fragments 
hitting at the YD, my guess is that the bays may be from a different impact 
than the YD. 

There seem to be other oriented tangential impact crater fields.  There were 
other ice ages, and other impacts. Bottom line, there's been more impacts than 
we ever imagined.

We'll see - good luck with your research.  Your white layers sound like impact 
flour, but that wouldn't be from the YD.

The big wait is for the USGS cores from the Carolinas, which should be most 
informative. Gene Shoemaker's accident was truly misfortunate, as in my opinion 
if he were still with us this all would have been cleared up by now.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Rich Murray rmfor...@comcast.net wrote:

 From: Rich Murray rmfor...@comcast.net
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina Bays: Paul H: 
 Rich Murray 2009.11.15
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc: astrod...@yahoogroups.com, oxytropidoce...@cox.net
 Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 4:12 PM
 Re: [meteorite-list] Observations on
 Age of Carolina Bays: Paul H: Rich Murray 2009.11.15
 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.htm
 Sunday, November 15, 2009
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/32
 
 Hello all,
 
 I am very appreciative of Paul's conscientious, careful
 contributions, based on civility, reason, and public
 evidence.
 
 Will there be many confirmations of ET markers in classic
 Carolina Bays?  And in similar clusters in many parts
 of the
 world?
 
 Will a single place and time be found for a single or
 multiple
 sources, or multiple sources with multiple places and
 times?
 
 Are data already available for mineral elements and
 isotopes
 at classic and possible Carolina Bay type craters?
 
 I find cracked,  broken, overturned, and tossed
 bedrocks
 up to 2 m size at many craters near Santa Fe, New Mexico.
 Many of these rocks have white, grey, greenish, red-brown,
 and black glazes or coatings, from 0.1 to 10 cm thick,
 even
 curled around the edge of bedrock layers for 10 cm,
 often with rough surface textures with little wind or
 water
 erosion.
 
 Also ordinary white quartz rocks up to 20 cm, glazed on
 one
 side with what appears as 0.2 to 3 cm melted quartz,
 sometimes with a yellow tinge.
 
 And 3 m thick level sandstone layers, exposed roadcuts
 about 30 m above the landscape, that have up to 10 cm
 white
 and gray mineral layers that appear to have been plastered
 on
 the vertical surfaces.
 
 I will glad to show visitors my samples, and to give tours
 of
 accessible sites -- many right beside public roads.
 
 I will be happy to search for sites with Google Earth for
 free
 within 80 km of any location, so they can be studied by
 those
 who live near the center coordinates.
 
 Best,  Rich Murray
 
 exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West,
 et al,
 two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3
 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14
 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.htm
 Saturday, November 14, 2009
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/31
 
 nanodiamond evidence for 12,900 BP Clovis extinction
 impact,
 Santa Rosa Island, discussion on Scientific American
 website,
 Carolina Bay type craters east of Las Vegas, NM:
 Rich Murray 2009.09.15
 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.htm
 Friday, July 24, 2009
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/28
 
 widespread Carolina Bay type craters from Clovis comet
 12,900 Ya BP? -- 0.7 M long NS crater with fractured
 red sandstone on SW rim, CR C 53A, 20 miles E of
 Las Vegas, NM: Rich Murray 2009.06.08
 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_06_01_archive.htm
 Monday, June 8, 2009
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AstroDeep/27
 _
 
 
 - Original Message - From: oxytropidoce...@cox.net
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:46 PM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Observations on Age of Carolina
 Bays
 __
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 Meteorite-list mailing listis
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
 
 As I will discuss in a paper that I am preparing, Carolina
 Bays
 are not at all difficult to date in terms of their age
 relative to the
 Younger Dryas as documented in a number of published,
 peer-
 reviewed papers and specific Cultural Resource Management
 reports. There is a huge amount of information available
 about
 either the age or relative age of the Carolina Bays to be
 found
 by carefully and persistently digging through the large
 number
 of publications about them and the geomorphology of the
 Atlantic coastal plain.
 
 1. Radiocarbon dates are all minimum dates indicating
 when ground water conditions

Re: [meteorite-list] LCROSS Alien?

2009-11-15 Thread Erik Fisler

looks like the Grinch with a white beard

[Erik]

 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:41:59 -0800
 From: e...@meteoritesusa.com
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] LCROSS Alien?

 Hi List,

 LCROSS mission: Aliens are watching...

 Alien face in ejecta plume.
 http://www.meteoritesusa.com/fun/LCROSS-Alien.jpg

 Some Photoshop fun for ya!

 Enjoy... ;)

 Regards,
 Eric Wichman
 Meteorites USA
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 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list

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Re: [meteorite-list] Nininger The Vatican

2009-11-15 Thread al mitt


Greetings,

Having read Eric's post on Nininger I thought I would remind people on the 
list (seasoned and newbies)
that you can read more about Harvey Nininger at this link: 
http://www.meteorite.com/nininger/  at the meteorite.com area. Best!


--AL Mitterling
Mitterling Meteorites


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Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites Competition)

2009-11-15 Thread Impactika

Sorry Dennis, I have no intention to think snow. In fact I can't wait to 
be in nice warm sunny Tucson!
And if You want to think snow, come on over, and bring a shovel!
 
And thank you to those of you who corrected my error. Yes the title of the 
book is indeed Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites by O. Richard Norton. 
Certainly a great book by someone who left us way too soon.
 
Have a nice evening!
 
Anne M. Black
_http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) 
_impact...@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) 
Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc.
_http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) 
 
 
In a message dated 11/15/2009 12:41:52 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
astror...@hotmail.com writes:
Como esta? Anne and List   Richard's book will always be a standard.
I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen Benedix's
new book Meteorites. These gals Drs put together a great book for
those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic and
very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like Kevin Kichinka's
The Art of Collecting Meteorites.  Now, if you aren't a Newbie you
will love McSween's Meteorites and Their Parent Planets. I use my copy
to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter what some say.
Have A Great Day!   Sorry Anne but, Think Snow!!!
Dennis



 From: impact...@aol.com
 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500
 To: mina...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites  
Competition)

 Hello Mark and List,

 There is already a book that answers a lot of your questions, not all of
 them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of Meteorites by O. Richard 
Norton.
 I certainly would recommend getting it.

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[meteorite-list] Reed Family Project

2009-11-15 Thread David Deyarmin


I hope it is okay to post this.

Below is the story of young police officer that needs our help.

If you are so inclined to send a small donation I will accept them via my 
PayPal account at bobad...@ec.rr.com


If you send a donation please put  Reed Family Project in the subject line


I tried to set up a separate account with Paypal but there is so much red 
tape that it would be very difficult and time consuming.  I will withdraw 
and deposit all money received into a bank account that was set up for the 
this project. Mitchell Village Wachovia in Morehead City is the Bank that 
has the account. I will provide full financial accounting updates to this 
thread


Thank you.


Here is a copy of the email explain officer Reeds situation.




The Morehead City police department, along with help from the community, is 
in the process of helping one of their own officers.  This young officer is 
in desperate need of our help.  In the past two years he has not only lost 
his father but his brother, grandmother, uncle, mother and a new born baby, 
which passed away in his arms.  As losing those loved ones weren't enough he 
has yet more to deal with.  This young man has a four month old son that 
suffers from a severe medical condition.  The baby suffers from a stomach 
issue that prevents him from eating.  He has to have special formula that is 
administered thru a feeding tube in the babies' nose.  Even with this 
formula the baby weighs less then 9 lbs and must be seen by a doctor in 
Greenville several times a week.  While attempting to deal with the passing 
of family members and the caring of loved ones he has had to put some things 
on the back burner. One of the things that have been neglected is his home. 
He currently lives in a small mobile home with no heat and very little room. 
The family has to do their cooking on a hot plate because they have no 
stove.  His five year old son sleeps in a closet with room enough for a 
small bed.  When the wind blows one can feel the air pass thru the walls. 
On top of the many problems with the living conditions, the family has no 
furniture. In fact to put it bluntly the family has nothing.   This is where 
the police department is trying to help.  We have found a newer trailer, 
which still needs a small amount of work but is more suitable for the 
families needs.   But like anything else there are still hurdles that must 
be cleared. The biggest of these is money.  This is why we are calling on 
Gods community to help us meet this need along with the families needs.  We 
are accepting donations of both monetary and prayer in this effort.  We 
understand times are tough for everyone but if God lays it on your heart 
please help us in this mission.



Larry Stoneroad 252 241-3818
lstoner...@embarqmail.com

Nick Stoneroad 252 241-5788

Thank You and God Bless
Larry Stoneroad 


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Re: [meteorite-list] exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 2009.11.14

2009-11-15 Thread E.P. Grondine

Hi Rich - 

Perhaps they should be looking for multiple Kitscoty type impact structures. 
I.l. - 3 to 4 miles of ice blown off, land rises in perfectly circular pattern.

Another possibility for the KREEP is actually primary impact with the Moon and 
secondary impacts from ejecta.  When I get my computer up I'll send you a jpg 
of the cast of the Trempealeau Petroglyph.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Rich Murray rmfor...@comcast.net wrote:

 From: Rich Murray rmfor...@comcast.net
 Subject: exact Carolina Bay crater locations, RB Firestone, A West, et al, 
 two YD reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts: Rich Murray 
 2009.11.14
 To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc: Rich Murray rmfor...@comcast.net, richmurray.rmfor...@gmail.com
 Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:39 AM
 exact Carolina Bay crater locations,
 RB Firestone, A West, et al, two YD
 reviews, 2008 June, 2009 Nov, also 3 upcoming abstracts:
 Rich Murray
 2009.11.14
 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.htm
 Saturday, November 14, 2009
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/astrodeep/message/31
 ___
 
 
 http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/mammoth.html
 Firestone paper links
 
 http://ie.lbl.gov/mammoth/TunguskaConferenceA4_Firestone.pdf
 37 pages
 Firestone, R.B.; West, A.; Revay Zs.; Hagstrum J.T.; Belgya
 T.;
 Que Hee S.S.; and Smith, A.R. (2008)
 Analysis of the Younger Dryas Impact Layer,
 100 years since Tunguska phenomenon: past, present, and
 future,
 June 26-28, Moscow, in press. 54 references
 
 R.B. Firestone 1,
 A. West 2,
 Zs. Revay 3,
 J. T. Hagstrum 4,
 T. Belgya 3,
 S.S. Que Hee 5,
 and A.R. Smith 1
 1 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, Ca
 94720,
 [ #43 Henderson, G.M.; Hall, B.L.; Smith, A.; 
 Robinson, L.F.
 (2006) Chem. Geol. 226, 298-308 ]
 2 GeoScience Consulting, Box 1636, Dewey, Arizona 86327,
 3 Institute for Isotope and Surface Chemistry,
 P.O. Box 77, H-1525 Budapest, Hungary,
 4 U.S. Geological Survey, 345 Middlefield Road MS 937,
 Menlo Park, CA 94025,
 5 University of California, Los Angeles, ICP-MS Facility,
 Los Angeles, CA 90095
 
 Abstract
 
 We have uncovered a thin layer of magnetic grains and
 microspherules, carbon spherules, and glass-like carbon at
 nine sites across North America, a site in Belgium, and
 throughout the rims of 16 Carolina Bays.
 It is consistent with the ejecta layer from an impact event
 and
 has been dated to 12.9 ka BP coinciding with the onset of
 Younger Dryas (YD) cooling and widespread megafaunal
 extinctions in North America.
 At many locations the impact layer is directly below a
 black mat
 marking the sudden disappearance of the megafauna and
 Clovis
 people.
 The distribution pattern of the Younger Dryas boundary
 (YDB)
 ejecta layer is consistent with an impact near the Great
 Lakes
 that deposited terrestrial-like ejecta near the impact site
 and
 unusual, titanium-rich projectile-like ejecta further
 away.
 High water content associated with the ejecta, up to 28
 at.%
 hydrogen (H), suggests the impact occurred over the
 Laurentide
 Ice Sheet.
 YDB microspherules and magnetic grains are highly enriched
 in
 TiO2.
 Magnetic grains from several sites are enriched in iridium
 (Ir), up
 to 117 ppb.
 The TiO2/FeO, K/Th, TiO2/Zr, Al2O3/FeO+MgO, CaO/Al2O3,
 REE/chondrite, FeO/MnO ratios and SiO2, Na2O, K2O, Cr2O3,
 Ni, Co, U, Th and other trace element abundances are
 inconsistent
 with all terrestrial and extraterrestrial (ET) sources
 except for
 KREEP, a lunar igneous rock rich in potassium (K),
 rare-earth
 elements (REE), phosphorus (P), and other incompatible
 elements
 including U and Th.
 Normal Fe, Ti, and 238U/235U isotopic abundances were
 found
 in the magnetic grains, but 234U was enriched over
 equilibrium
 values by 50% in Murray Springs and by 130% in Belgium.
 40K abundance is enriched by up to 100% in YDB sediments
 and
 Clovis chert artifacts.
 Highly vesicular carbon spherules containing nanodiamonds,
 glass-like carbon, charcoal and soot found in large
 quantities in
 the YDB layer are consistent with an impact followed by
 intense
 burning.
 Four holes in the Great Lakes, some deeper than Death
 Valley,
 are proposed as possible craters produced by the airburst
 breakup of a loosely aggregated projectile.
 
 from Table 2:
 
 CLOVIS SITES:
 Blackwater Draw, NM- 34.27564N 103.32633W
 Chobot, AB, CAN- 52.99521N 114.71773W
 Gainey, MI- 42.93978N,, 83.72111W
 Murray Springs, AZ 31.57103N 110.17814W
 Wally's Beach, AB- 49.34183N 113.15440W
 Topper, SC -- T-1- 33.00554N,, 81.49001W
 Topper, SC -- T-2- 33.00545N,, 81.49056W
 
 CLOVIS-AGE SITES:
 Daisy Cave, CA--- 34.04207N 120.32009W
 Lake Hind, MB, CAN- 49.43970N 100.69783W
 Lommel, BELGIUM--- 51.23580N, 5.26403E
 Morley drumlin, AB 51.14853N, 114.93546W
 
 CAROLINA BAYS: (with paleosol beneath)
 Blackville, SC --

Re: [meteorite-list] Nininger The Vatican

2009-11-15 Thread michael cottingham


Who's Nininger?


On Nov 15, 2009, at 3:52 PM, Meteorites USA wrote:


An eye on the sky, one on the ground
By Christopher Cokinos
Posted: 11/15/2009 01:00:00 AM MST
http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_13776988

Meteorite expert Harvey Nininger. (Courtesy of the American  
Meteorite Laboratory Photo Collection, Collections Research for  
Museums, Denver )


The International Year of Astronomy is drawing to a close, and it's  
been marked by some notable passages. We've celebrated the 400th  
anniversary of Galileo's first view through a telescope, and we've  
looked back 40 years to the first Apollo moon landing.


This month, another anniversary has taken place, but one quite  
obscure except to some dealers, collectors and researchers of  
meteorites. Eighty-six years ago, on Nov. 9, 1923, a then-unknown,  
middle-aged science professor named Harvey Nininger was walking home  
from work in McPherson, Kan. Suddenly, he saw a huge meteor so vivid  
that eyewitnesses would remember the event for years to come.


The fireball would also change the course of Harvey's life and the  
course of science. Nininger anticipated an insight about life and  
death on our planet decades before it became widely accepted by  
researchers and then became the stuff of Hollywood blockbusters.


When the meteor vanished from his view on that chilly evening,  
Nininger marked the sidewalk where he stood. He knew that if he  
received enough reports from eyewitnesses, he could triangulate  
their accounts and have a rough sense of where meteorites might have  
fallen. (Meteors are the passage of burning objects from space into  
our atmosphere; meteorites are the heavy, usually dark rocks that  
sometimes fall from them to Earth.)


Nininger's idea was a radical one. No one had attempted to search  
for meteorites where none had been seen to fall, and a leading  
geologist once told Nininger that if he spent the rest of his life  
looking for meteorites he might find one. The geologist was wrong.


Though Nininger didn't find any space rocks from that Nov. 9  
fireball, in the years ahead he'd find hundreds from other falls.  
Nininger believed that more meteorites could be discovered from  
unwitnessed or forgotten falls by simply scouring the countryside.  
He was proven right on that count as well.


After quitting his $3,000-a-year teaching job at McPherson College  
(during the Great Depression!), Nininger moved his family to Denver,  
where in 1930 he became a part-time curator of meteorites at the  
Colorado Museum of Natural History. The museum paid him just $600 a  
year, so Nininger had to rely on his obsession and his wits to make  
a living at buying, selling, finding, displaying, popularizing and  
researching meteorites. No one had done anything like it before in  
the study of space rocks, which was then a backwater of geology.


With help from Denver truck magnate Dean Gillespie, Nininger criss- 
crossed the continent, from Saskatoon to Chihuahua City, discovering  
newly fallen meteorites and ones that had languished in ditches,  
corn fields, even attics. He proved that iron meteorites were not  
the most common ones to fall, but that they were selected for  
discovery because they look so alien and weigh so much. He recovered  
1,200 pounds of a rare stony-iron meteorite from a Kansas field.


When most people still thought craters on the moon had been formed  
by volcanoes, Nininger and a few others begged to differ, suggesting  
they must have formed by the impacts of meteorites. He was right  
once more. And 40 years before scientists would link the extinction  
of the dinosaurs to an asteroid's collision with the planet,  
Nininger suggested that cosmic impacts could lead to global mass  
extinctions.


A tireless worker, Nininger did find time during his Denver years to  
be active with the Boy Scouts and take his children to concerts.  
They watched the colored lights of the fountain at City Park,  
recalls Nininger's daughter, Doris Banks. Winter car trips meant  
that Harvey would warm up iron meteorites at home, then wrap them in  
blankets to place on the floorboard, thus keeping everyone toasty.


I suppose not many Denverites today remember the name Harvey  
Nininger, but until World War II he was one of the city's most  
prominent scientific citizens. He was also known nationally from  
profiles in publications like The Saturday Evening Post.


Eventually, he moved his family to Arizona, where he opened the  
world's only museum of meteorites and where his pursuits continued,  
at times, to get him in hot water. For example, Nininger didn't have  
a Ph.D., but he when he was awarded an honorary doctorate he began  
calling himself Dr. Nininger, at least on his letterhead.


His love of meteorites became a family affair. His son-in-law, Glenn  
Huss, took over Nininger's American Meteorite Laboratory in Denver  
for many years. Glenn's son, Gary, has become one of the world's  
best-known

[meteorite-list] Mars Odyssey THEMIS Images: November 9-13, 2009

2009-11-15 Thread Ron Baalke


MARS ODYSSEY THEMIS IMAGES
November 9-13, 2009

o Windstreaks (09 November 2009)
  http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091109a

o Arkhangelsky Crater (10 November 2009)
  http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091110a

o Russell Crater Dunes (11 November 2009)
  http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-2009a

o Russell Crater Dunes (12 November 2009)
  http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091112a

o Kaiser Crater Dunes (13 November 2009)
  http://themis.asu.edu/zoom-20091113a


All of the THEMIS images are archived here:

http://themis.asu.edu/latest.html

NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory manages the 2001 Mars Odyssey mission 
for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. The Thermal Emission 
Imaging System (THEMIS) was developed by Arizona State University,
Tempe, in co.oration with Raytheon Santa Barbara Remote Sensing. 
The THEMIS investigation is led by Dr. Philip Christensen at Arizona State 
University. Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, is the prime contractor 
for the Odyssey project, and developed and built the orbiter. Mission 
operations are conducted jointly from Lockheed Martin and from JPL, a 
division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. 



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Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites Competition)

Hi Anne and all,

I haven't seen that title.  Do you mean Field Guide to Meteors and 
Meteorites?  What I have in mind is a book similar to The Complete 
Metalsmith.  I haven't seen a book of similar style covering meteorite prep  
preservation.  Maybe a lot of that material is spread throughout the internet, 
but so is the stuff covering metalsmithing.  I think it would be nice to have 
it in one handbook.

Best regards,
Mark

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, impact...@aol.com impact...@aol.com wrote:

 From: impact...@aol.com impact...@aol.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites  
 Competition)
 To: mina...@yahoo.com, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 11:45 AM
 Hello Mark and List,
  
 There is already a book that answers a lot of your
 questions, not all of 
 them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of Meteorites by
 O. Richard Norton. 
 I certainly would recommend getting it.
  
 Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion about
 helping new 
 meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not see a
 response on the List 
 that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole lot
 better to email 
 that person privately to ask for additional details to
 narrow down the 
 problem, or simply to protect that person from some public
 embarassement. I know I 
 probably write 50 private emails for every one posted here.
 
  
 And then we are not all always glued to our computer
 (believe it or not!!), 
 personally I have a book (about meteorites of course) to
 translate as 
 quickly as possible so it will be available in Tucson.
  
 And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of having
 to answer every 
 question that comes in on the IMCA questions email address.
 Also time 
 consuming. 
  
 And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!!
 Have a nice day.
  
 Anne M. Black
 _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) 
 _impact...@aol.com_
 (mailto:impact...@aol.com)
 
 Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc.
 _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) 
  
  
  
 In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain Standard
 Time, 
 mina...@yahoo.com
 writes:
 Dear List,
 
 I think Adam has some great points.  I think people
 forget how rare these 
 things are.  Prices often don't reflect that.
 
 I think people are more likely to give advice when a
 newbie asks 
 something like, I've ruined several slices trying to do
 such  such, I've tried A 
 and B, what else should I do.  it shows that they're
 paying their dues, but 
 need a little advice which they can probably absorb
 quickly, saving an 
 expert's time.  The sad thing is that a few
 slices/specimens have been ruined 
 (maybe from cheap, common NWA material, but very rare,
 finite material 
 nonetheless).
 
 How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and your
 business vs. 
 the ideal of preserving this wonderful material?  I
 suppose there are 
 techniques which are common in parallel fields like
 lapidary, which one can assume 
 they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their
 time/wallet but also 
 hard on meteorites).  I would say one should be
 somewhat eager to help in 
 that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but only
 make possible the 
 damage of more specimens.  However, offering help
 takes precious time, busy 
 people lack.
 
 What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting some
 of these 
 common things?  The first person(s) with the ability
 to write said tome could 
 profit from the book sales, and many novices would benefit
 from the tips.  
 Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and the
 disclaimer given 
 that you will have to experiment at the peril of your
 collection and finances - 
 or maybe find a willing mentor.  
 
 The book would have to be relatively comprehensive -
 covering the common 
 things which can be found in a lapidary book, but from a
 meteorite point of 
 view (there might be possibility of tips like it's wise to
 practice this 
 technique using sandstone(?)  because it approximates
 XYZ meteorites very well, 
 and you can rest assured that your learning curve isn't
 busting the bank).  
 And it would also cover the meteorites specific topics like
 chemicals/oils 
 to avoid, etc.  Maybe some explanations of the
 different textures you will 
 encounter in meteorites.  Maybe a section on thin
 sections, epoxy plugs, and ?
 
 There might be room for general things like an explanation
 meteorite 
 classifications, collecting strategies, strategies for
 documenting a collection of 
 specimens, a list of common vendors, etc.  There are
 lots of interesting, 
 useful things that could be added that I can't
 imagine.  Of course, you would 
 have to have environmental, health and safety concerns
 highlighted and 
 repeated throughout the book!
 
 I know this may sound a little out in left field, but it
 would help with 
 the overall conservation of specimens and/or reduce poor,
 albeit, harmless

[meteorite-list] 49 Gram Ghubara Slice

2009-11-15 Thread David Deyarmin


I have a nice slice of Ghubara available

It is 42mm x 110mm  x 5mm and weighs 49 grams

I am asking $49 plus shipping

If you are interested please contact me off list at bobadebt at ec.rr.com


Thanks

Here are some images of it


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/BobaDebt/Meteorites/Ghubara/49grSlice1.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p298/BobaDebt/Meteorites/Ghubara/49grSlice2.jpg 


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[meteorite-list] Two Days Hunting for Meteorites - Learning is free!

2009-11-15 Thread Ruben Garcia

Hi all,

I just spent two days in the desert - in a neighboring state - hoping
to find another rare achondrite. An elusive U.S. Lunar or Martian
meteorite is always on my mind. Unfortunately, this time I came back
with a handful of ordinary chondrites. Nothing rare but still had a
good time! Here are the pictures of the six stones I found. Strangely,
the first two seem to be the same type and the last four -weathered
chondrites - are different.

http://www.mr-meteorite.net/twodaysworth.htm

P.S.  Learning is encouraged and FREE at my website and videos!

--
Rock On!

Ruben Garcia

Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net
Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u
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[meteorite-list] AD: Meteorites For Sale


Hi All,

I've added some nice etched and polished meteorite slices to the site.
http://www.meteoritesusa.com/meteorites-for-sale.htm

Brenham Pallasite
Muonionalusta
Canyon Diablo
Nantan

First come first served. Sorry, no holds. Will ship tomorrow. Free 
shipping inside USA on orders over $50.


Enjoy...

Regards,
Eric Wichman
Meteorites USA
www.meteoritesusa.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites Competition)

Hi Dennis and List,

I would like to check out that new book (published by the gals?).  I'm sure 
I'll get the chance at this years show.

The other books I am familiar with (except maybe the one Anne mentioned).  But 
none of these focus on the lapidary side of meteorites, the practical steps 
involved.

I hope I wasn't clear about that when I mentioned possible filler material 
for the book (like cataloging, classifications, etc.).  Such material is 
probably not appropriate for an illustrated guidebook for cutting, polishing, 
protecting (etc., etc.) the various types of meteorites.  But I was just trying 
to throw out additional ideas.

Best regards,
Mark

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Dennis Miller astror...@hotmail.com wrote:

 From: Dennis Miller astror...@hotmail.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites  
 Competition)
 To: impact...@aol.com, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:40 PM
 
 Como esta? Anne and List   Richard's book
 will always be a standard.
 I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen
 Benedix's
 new book Meteorites. These gals Drs put together a
 great book for
 those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic
 and
 very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like
 Kevin Kichinka's
 The Art of Collecting Meteorites.  Now, if you
 aren't a Newbie you
 will love McSween's Meteorites and Their Parent Planets.
 I use my copy
 to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter
 what some say.
 Have A Great Day!   Sorry Anne but, Think
 Snow!!!
 Dennis
  
 
 
  From: impact...@aol.com
  Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500
  To: mina...@yahoo.com;
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was
 Meteorites  Competition)
 
  Hello Mark and List,
 
  There is already a book that answers a lot of your
 questions, not all of
  them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of
 Meteorites by O. Richard Norton.
  I certainly would recommend getting it.
 
  Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion
 about helping new
  meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not
 see a response on the List
  that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole
 lot better to email
  that person privately to ask for additional details to
 narrow down the
  problem, or simply to protect that person from some
 public embarassement. I know I
  probably write 50 private emails for every one posted
 here.
 
  And then we are not all always glued to our computer
 (believe it or not!!),
  personally I have a book (about meteorites of course)
 to translate as
  quickly as possible so it will be available in
 Tucson.
 
  And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of
 having to answer every
  question that comes in on the IMCA questions email
 address. Also time
  consuming.
 
  And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!!
  Have a nice day.
 
  Anne M. Black
  _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/)
  _impact...@aol.com_
 (mailto:impact...@aol.com)
  Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc.
  _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/)
 
 
 
  In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain
 Standard Time,
  mina...@yahoo.com
 writes:
  Dear List,
 
  I think Adam has some great points. I think people
 forget how rare these
  things are. Prices often don't reflect that.
 
  I think people are more likely to give advice when a
 newbie asks
  something like, I've ruined several slices trying to
 do such  such, I've tried A
  and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're
 paying their dues, but
  need a little advice which they can probably absorb
 quickly, saving an
  expert's time. The sad thing is that a few
 slices/specimens have been ruined
  (maybe from cheap, common NWA material, but very
 rare, finite material
  nonetheless).
 
  How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and
 your business vs.
  the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I
 suppose there are
  techniques which are common in parallel fields like
 lapidary, which one can assume
  they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their
 time/wallet but also
  hard on meteorites). I would say one should be
 somewhat eager to help in
  that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but
 only make possible the
  damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes
 precious time, busy
  people lack.
 
  What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting
 some of these
  common things? The first person(s) with the ability
 to write said tome could
  profit from the book sales, and many novices would
 benefit from the tips.
  Sensitive trade secrets could be mentioned by name and
 the disclaimer given
  that you will have to experiment at the peril of your
 collection and finances -
  or maybe find a willing mentor.
 
  The book would have to be relatively comprehensive -
 covering the common
  things which can

Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites Competition)

2009-11-15 Thread Galactic Stone Ironworks

Hi Mark and List,

Such a book sounds like a great idea.  A bunch of that info is located
in the online Meteorite Times archives.  There are several old
articles by Jim Tobin that cover some of these lapidary type topics.

But having all of those, and more like them, in one book would be nice.

Best regards,

MikeG

On 11/15/09, Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Hi Dennis and List,

 I would like to check out that new book (published by the gals?).  I'm
 sure I'll get the chance at this years show.

 The other books I am familiar with (except maybe the one Anne mentioned).
 But none of these focus on the lapidary side of meteorites, the practical
 steps involved.

 I hope I wasn't clear about that when I mentioned possible filler material
 for the book (like cataloging, classifications, etc.).  Such material is
 probably not appropriate for an illustrated guidebook for cutting,
 polishing, protecting (etc., etc.) the various types of meteorites.  But I
 was just trying to throw out additional ideas.

 Best regards,
 Mark

 --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Dennis Miller astror...@hotmail.com wrote:

 From: Dennis Miller astror...@hotmail.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites 
 Competition)
 To: impact...@aol.com, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 12:40 PM

 Como esta? Anne and List   Richard's book
 will always be a standard.
 I recently bought Caroline Smith, Sara Russell and Gretchen
 Benedix's
 new book Meteorites. These gals Drs put together a
 great book for
 those with the slightest interest in meteorites. It's basic
 and
 very easy to read. Loads of great pictures too. I also like
 Kevin Kichinka's
 The Art of Collecting Meteorites.  Now, if you
 aren't a Newbie you
 will love McSween's Meteorites and Their Parent Planets.
 I use my copy
 to fill up the shelf! But, what a Great Hobby, no matter
 what some say.
 Have A Great Day!   Sorry Anne but, Think
 Snow!!!
 Dennis


 
  From: impact...@aol.com
  Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:45:39 -0500
  To: mina...@yahoo.com;
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was
 Meteorites  Competition)
 
  Hello Mark and List,
 
  There is already a book that answers a lot of your
 questions, not all of
  them, but quite a few. It is the Handbook of
 Meteorites by O. Richard Norton.
  I certainly would recommend getting it.
 
  Also I would like to add one thing to the discussion
 about helping new
  meteorite enthusiasts; It is not because you did not
 see a response on the List
  that no help of response was sent. It is often a whole
 lot better to email
  that person privately to ask for additional details to
 narrow down the
  problem, or simply to protect that person from some
 public embarassement. I know I
  probably write 50 private emails for every one posted
 here.
 
  And then we are not all always glued to our computer
 (believe it or not!!),
  personally I have a book (about meteorites of course)
 to translate as
  quickly as possible so it will be available in
 Tucson.
 
  And Norbert Classen and I have the dubious honor of
 having to answer every
  question that comes in on the IMCA questions email
 address. Also time
  consuming.
 
  And right now I have a whole lot of snow to shovel!!!
  Have a nice day.
 
  Anne M. Black
  _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/)
  _impact...@aol.com_
 (mailto:impact...@aol.com)
  Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc.
  _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/)
 
 
 
  In a message dated 11/15/2009 8:30:51 AM Mountain
 Standard Time,
  mina...@yahoo.com
 writes:
  Dear List,
 
  I think Adam has some great points. I think people
 forget how rare these
  things are. Prices often don't reflect that.
 
  I think people are more likely to give advice when a
 newbie asks
  something like, I've ruined several slices trying to
 do such  such, I've tried A
  and B, what else should I do. it shows that they're
 paying their dues, but
  need a little advice which they can probably absorb
 quickly, saving an
  expert's time. The sad thing is that a few
 slices/specimens have been ruined
  (maybe from cheap, common NWA material, but very
 rare, finite material
  nonetheless).
 
  How do you balance the protection of trade secrets and
 your business vs.
  the ideal of preserving this wonderful material? I
 suppose there are
  techniques which are common in parallel fields like
 lapidary, which one can assume
  they'll figure it out the hard way (both hard on their
 time/wallet but also
  hard on meteorites). I would say one should be
 somewhat eager to help in
  that case, since keeping quiet won't deter them but
 only make possible the
  damage of more specimens. However, offering help takes
 precious time, busy
  people lack.
 
  What about the possibility of a guidebook highlighting
 some of these
  common things? The first person(s) with the ability
 to write said tome could

Re: [meteorite-list] Guide to Newbies (was Meteorites Competition)