Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites - Oriented vs. Orientated: What’s the Difference?

2016-05-09 Thread Martin Altmann via Meteorite-list
Hi,

my rusty Latin would say: "oriented" stems from the Latin deponent "oriri" and 
its participle "oriens, orientis";
and "orientated" was originally derived from the French "orienter" (18th cent.) 
(which would be in Latin "circumspicere" = to look around).
Therefore, I guess, you have in English both forms for that meaning:
"to orient oneself" --> oriented
"to orientate oneself" --> orientated

Ex oriente lux,

Martin,
a ghost from the past ;-)



-Original Message-
From: Pete Modreski via Meteorite-list 
To: meteorite-list 
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2016 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites - Oriented vs. Orientated: What’s the 
Difference?


I've never thought that "orientated" was a real word--I always just figured it 
was what ignorant people say who didn't get very far in school...


(my apology to any and all who like to use it!)


Pete




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Re: [meteorite-list] grains of sand

2013-11-08 Thread Martin Altmann
Where did this (factoid)
originate...

Hi Paul,

Historically, I suppose, most likely from Friedrich Wilhelm Bessel and
Giovanni Schiaparelli.
Bessel published in 1836 a theory on the physical nature of comets,
postulating that their tails must consist of dust,
expelled from the comet and driven away by a repulsive force by the sun;
and Schiaparelli established in 1867 in his Note e riflessioni intorno alla
teoria astronomica delle stelle cadenti
the connection between four annual meteor streams and four comets, in
demonstrating that they share the same orbits.

Best!
Martin



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Paul
Gessler
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 7. November 2013 04:42
An: meteorite-list
Betreff: [meteorite-list] grains of sand

Was wondering about the statement that shooting stars we see are no bigger
than grains of sand???
I here it used all the time and haven't  really given it any thought. I
don't buy it!
I don't think a grain of sand would be able to generate enough light to be
visible from earth?
Has anyone actually measured these grains of sand? If so how was it done. 
Where did this (factoid)
originate and is there any validity to it?
I could see gravel sized debris producing what we see but not sand and
smaller.

Any one care to comment?

Paul Gessler 

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Re: [meteorite-list] Exploring the Solar System in Antarctica (NWA vs Antarctica)

2013-10-10 Thread Martin Altmann
But Jeff!

This shall be: The Earth:o

And now I hit 36,000 times the space-bar until I reach, almost a football-field 
wide to the right, the inner boarder of the inner asteroid main-belt.

Does it then really matters so much, that an object from out there hits the 
little letter o more on top or more to the side?

Hot desert meteorites do have three strong advances compared to the Antarctic 
finds.
Within all classes they outnumber the Antarctic finds by far, regarding the 
representation of distinct fall events.
On average the individual weights/masses of the hot desert finds are much 
larger than those of the cold desert finds.
The procurement costs for hot desert meteorites are only a small fraction of 
the acquiring costs of the Antarctic finds.

(Ok. The latter perhaps not for the individual scientist/institute who gets 
Antarctic samples granted for free,
but somebody has to pay the infrastructure, equipment, personnel etc. of the 
Antarctic expeditions - in general the tax-payers of those countries taking 
part in the Antarctic searching campaigns).

that the degree of weathering in Antarctic specimens is, overall, much less.

True is, that Antarctic meteorites seem to weather half as fast as desert finds 
(I remember to have read some gross figures), and that they suffer from a 
different form of contamination,
but seen the A-B-C-scheme versus the W0-W5-scheme, I dare to presume to say, 
that also that assertion is outdated today.
The freshness of the hot finds is of course a function of the number of finds 
too.
Don't forget that the very vast majority of the hot desert finds remains 
unclassified and unrecorded.
Reasons are a lack of places for classification and of funds; the low 
scientific gain to be expected by working on ordinary chondrites, thus not 
justifying the necessary amount of funds and qualified manpower to classify them
and finally economical considerations by the producers of the hot desert finds 
(remember those times, when NWA-OCs had cost less than Suisse cheese).

The reasons for this are historical and curatorial.

Only indirectly. At least the reasons aren't scientifical ones at all, but the 
prime reason is politics.

Indeed several research facilities and institutional collections impose 
themselves a complete abdication of hot desert meteorites, though that is 
caused by legal imponderabilia.

As we all know - let it be a lack of knowledge, let it be the self-interest of 
a few -
some countries either perceive the circumstance, that meteorites do land on 
their territory already as a human achievement, and as a special national 
achievement, although the falls of stones are independent from topographic 
factors unlike the other natural precipitations like rain, snowfall, hail, dew
and subsume therefore meteorites under the legislation of cultural goods

or they reckon meteorites among the natural resources, although they aren't 
mined and not so many other goods come to my mind than my beloved mouse-milk (I 
read a pint costs 2k$), which are the same plentiful like meteorites and also I 
heard that using meteorites as a resource is regarded since the end of the 
bronze-age as somewhat optimistic..

or they protect them by law as natural monuments, which make meteorites, if 
they don't have that caliber (huh, uncle Alex, I almost wrote rogue wave) of 
the Hoba whopper or the Cape York masses or if we don't speak about 
crater-related strewnfields,
to the smallest and most invisible monuments in existence.

I don't know any piece of advice, that question the professional meteorite 
scientists have to discuss,
Unfortunately they haven't any other global forum than the MetSoc for that, 
which is by its agenda apolitical.

Well, if I dare to speak for us collectors, who can't have such a scientific or 
academic access to the meteorites, but often a more historical one,

Our hearts are bleeding, whenever we miss in the Grand Collections of Calcutta, 
Vienna, London, Paris, Berlin, Moscow, Washington a second exhibition hall at 
least as large as the main meteorite exhibition or at least a storage in the 
depot facilities as large as that one for the historic ones,
filled with the opulence of the meteorites of OUR times: The hot desert 
meteorites.

I think, also in my senile retrospective, that it was an enormous mistake to 
miss out
in that, which once will be called by our grandchildren The Golden Age of 
Meteorites.


And here ends my annual standard rant ;-)
Which, note!, has lost its anger (since I work on finding a 
Reimer-Tiemann-reaction in the field of meteorites). 

But let us sum up:
The discussion of Good meteorite vs. Bad meteorite is a debate of the late 
1990s/very early 2000s.
Left today is rather: Good meteorite vs. Evil meteorite, isn't it?
(However, they're all aliens).

Slowfinger,
Martin




-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com 
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von 

Re: [meteorite-list] OT NASA websites taken down for Government shutdown

2013-10-03 Thread Martin Altmann
Adam, a silent 12-minute view from outside...

To me, as far as I can judge at all, the causes of your crises over there
started much earlier.
As early as already in the Reagan era, when it started that the middle-class
got bled.
And further, when the real industry was immolated on the altars of the
financial industry.
(Same happened in Europe in UK, under the Thatcherism). Consequently the
investments in the permanent innovation of the production and infrastructure
were neglected and the money was carried to the horse-race and the bookies.
(You know, all the bursting bubbles like new economy etc.). So you have a
structural problem. In former times USA imported raw materials and primary
products and exported products, today it's vice versa.
Additionally you had a second problem, located more on the other end of the
political spectrum, that program every US-citizen in his own house (when did
it start, under Carter?), where to each and every one credits were allowed
for acquiring real estate, without checking whether the people would ever be
able to pay the credit back and that later-on the banks started to trade
with and to bet on these foul credits, resulting in the real estate 
banking crises.
(plus you have the huge gaps in the budget, caused by the last two expensive
wars).
The other model would be for instance Germany, one of the very few
countries, which currently seems to get off still very lightly through the
crises (which is also in Europe the largest economical depression since
WWII) and is even profiting at the moment from the crises (later on we will
have to pay, as Germany guarantees for the national debts of other
EU-countries with a sum higher than its own national budget) because it has
a different structure.
Always ridiculed in times of the Big$$ for its poor financial industry and
the anaemic rate of the economic growth of +/-1% per annum, it lives mainly
from the production, hence from the real industries and the exportation
(#2 behind China). Despite the crises we have a decent growth of the GNP and
even a bisection of the unemployment during the last 10 years - and that all
with the severe problem of a strongly over-aging society, driving the dues
for social insurances like health care or old-age provisions in dizzy
heights.
Interesting is,that that stability is created mainly by mid-sized
enterprises and not so by the industrial giants. The latter run after the
shareholder value and calculate only for the quarterly statements,
abandoning any long-term-strategy.
They didn't create new jobs, but permanently make personnel reductions.
Furthermore they are heftily subsidized with tax money or by tax exemptions,
and often when they are about going bankrupt, they are rescued with
tax-money...

Hence to make it shorter
For an observer from outside, now that blockade and the shutdown has, as
regards content, nothing to do with the healthcare, but is a simple power
struggle. (And we all are wondering, that in that difficult economical times
and for that purpose, your congress hazards the consequences of an avoidable
damage to the real GDP).

Healthcare is another topic.
Rather a question of mentality and history of a country. Huh, I saw Henry
Fonda burying Grampa roadside on the trek to the Promised Land. (k a
communist oeuvre?).

I for my own at least, being ill  unfit for work for 1.5 years now,(snivel)
am pretty glad, that due to my healthcare I only have to dump meteorites but
not house  farm  the shirt off my back for my treatment. (And that I have
a better perspective thus, than to be healthy again, but then to be forced
to wear down a huge mountain of debts until handing over my spoon, as we say
here)

over 50 cents goes to taxes of one sort or another

Don't worry, second-most meteorite-retail-dealers behind the U.S. seem to
work in Germany;
our duestaxes are much higher (and that while having also on average
somewhat higher living costs).
It works too.

I think the price of meteorites will just have to go up.

Nope.
A life without meteorites is possible, but useless.

But when the collectors' wallet gets thinner, the meteorites have to get
CHEAPER.

(And the same way the U.S.-dealers don't care a fig for the taxdues burden
of their Germs-colleagues,
the Russian and Moroccan colleagues won't care for your taxdues yoke.
Decisive for your success was, is and will always be: the collector).

And as always,
I could also go wrong with my views,
nevertheless,
much success to all,
 be confident.

Martin
(disappearing again for the next months...)



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam
Hupe
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. Oktober 2013 02:16
An: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA websites taken down for Government
shutdown

My 10-minute rant since all of this government shutdown business is being
postured about!



__


[meteorite-list] My apology to Mike Farmer

2013-06-09 Thread Martin Altmann
(A.S.: Hi Art, please let it through, it's important for me, but also for
the collectors for not falling for the same scam)


Hello,

After a few days of contemplation (sorry for having been slow, but they were
necessary for me to cool down),
I want to publically and cordially apology to you all, and especially to
Mike Farmer, hoping he will accept it.
I was wrong and my reaction was crude, unjust and inadequate.
All three specimens in question turned out to be fakes.

Mike was right 
and due to his expertise it was avoided that the pseudo-Estherville came in
further circulation,
neither the forged Bondoc nor the faked Murchison were distributed,
so that a direct damage, caused by my fault, to the community was averted.
Therefore we have to thank Mike.

Those fakes must have been built by someone, who has a deeper knowledge
about meteorites,
as it's relatively uncommon, that classical names of semi-rarely meteorites
are used and the fakes equipped with a legend and labels. (So far we can
recall only another case, the forged Dhofar-Moon, which was more easy to
unmask, as the specimens came with a certification of the university
Muenster, which doesn't issue such, and the find was only one stone, so that
the finder himself immediately could identify them as fakes, as no fragments
of that stone did exist).

We tried to investigate the case further, fearing that more of such fakes
will appear to the harm of the collectors.
But the seller seems to be now untraceable. 
His name is:   Jankó Zoltán from Hungary. He claimed to have purchased an
older mineral collection a few years ago, where these specimens were a part
of among other meteorites. And the collector's name, he gave, is: József
Vida from Derecske.

So we ask you all, to be extremely cautious (and to inform us) if persons of
these names contact you.


Well, 33 years I was able to sort out the fakes, wrongs, mislabeled ones,
now I failed.
That shouldn't and that mustn't happen and is in that field unforgivable.
(At least, after having learned the lesson, also to behave better, I hope to
stay fake-free now till 2046).


So I end with the necessary: Mea maxima culpa,
and stay in silent contrition until I'll be allowed
to see the sun again..

Martin Altmann





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Re: [meteorite-list] what is a... OT

2013-06-02 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Paul,

Raspberry Tony (Himbeertoni) is a jesting and cuss word of the
Austro-Bavarian language.
The etymology is absolutely unclear, neither old references are found.
Schmeller's Bavarian dictionary of 1827 doesn't know him yet.

A Raspberry Tony is a person of very limited intellect, that is so
excessively good-natured, that he put up with everything and is easy to
short-change.

There are in my opinion three possibilities of the origin:

Either it's a literary character (of a forgotten piece),

or it's the characterization by profession - somebody who is of such an
imbecility, that he can earn his living only by collecting and selling
raspberries,

or it's a humorous derivation from the Strawberry George (often appearing as
the boon companion of the Raspberry Tony).
The Strawberry George in turn is a mishearing of the archbishop, In German
Erzbischof which sounds similar to Erbeerschorsch.  (Erdbeer(e)
(Groundberry) is the Strawberry, Schorsch is the Bavarian form of
George).


Best!
Martin
  

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Paul
Gessler
Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Juni 2013 06:04
An: meteorite-list
Betreff: [meteorite-list] what is a...

Can someone please tell me what a Raspberry Tony is?

Thanx

Paul Gessler
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Re: [meteorite-list] what is a... OT

2013-06-02 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Adam,

what do you want. The Bondoc and Murchi is here with us and contemporary
suspended from sale,
Farmer brings back the Estherville and will get his refund,
and then we will test it.
Therefore the witch-hunt is paused for 3 weeks+ until after Ensisheim.
(and Art can close that topic until then).

Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam
Hupe
Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Juni 2013 16:48
An: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] what is a... OT

Raspberry Tony sounds like a good definition for an invasive species that
ruins it for honest species trying to eek out a living.  Maybe in this case,
we should call it an evasive species since we are not getting straight
answers.   

It reminds me of an invasive species called a Quagga Mussel (small clams)
living here in Lake Mojave.  They clog up pipes, ruin boat motors and are
just plain bad news.  They feel they are entitled to live in our lakes for
free and cause destruction even though they were not invited. They have even
been known to piggy back off one another: a filthy trait they are well-know
for.  Next these clams will be demanding entitlements, continue to self-pair
and substitute garbage for the real thing; All in the name of making more
clams!.  

Definition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quagga_mussel
 
Pure stupidity and greed.  ... and for some reason, we all put up with it
and what cost? The undermining of collector confidence.

Adam




From: Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com
To: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] what is a...  OT


Amazing long and perfect description of A long forgotten word. 
Sadly you seem not to have the time to answer a couple of simple questions
regarding the non-meteorite you sold me.
I took it to a meteorite club meeting yesterday for many people to enjoy,
100% agree it is not even a meteorite.
Can you use that amazing power of gab you have Martin, and simply let us
know how you decided to make me your Raspberry Toni? You never answered
one question asked you about the fake meteorite, fake labels, fake
Murchison. You only made references to me carrying around baggies of
meteorites in the old days (not sure what that has to do with receipt of a
fake meteorite from you). Sorry, I wasn't born a millionaire and had to work
to make myself one. It took some time.

You make reference to a mistake I made in clearly shipping the wrong
specimen some years ago, again sorted out and quickly corrected without 
character attack on the victim by me, mistake admitted and rectified easily.

You refuse to even acknowledge that sending fake produced plastic label is
FRUAD when your add clearly states that they are real AML pieces. 

I just wanted some answers to these questions, instead got a rambling bunch
of nonsense that does nothing but divert and dilute from the bottom line of
suspect or outright fake meteorite sold to me by you.

If you would simply put all that energy to letting me know how such
imitations were able to pass your very experiences hands, this would already
be forgotten. Instead all I got is how wrong and stupid I am compared to
you, you are of course always right because this came from some old Romanian
collection? Well, since Romania is well known as the Nigeria of Europe for
scams, I guess this could also be a Romanian scam meteorite.
Sorry, this Rapsberry Toni is offended, and angry at receipt of a fake
piece of garbage.
Perhaps I'll send it up to ASU for lab work to see what exactly you sold me.
They have Estherville from Nininger as well.
Michael Farmer

On Jun 2, 2013, at 4:48 AM, Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
wrote:

 Hi Paul,
 
 Raspberry Tony (Himbeertoni) is a jesting and cuss word of the 
 Austro-Bavarian language.
 The etymology is absolutely unclear, neither old references are found.
 Schmeller's Bavarian dictionary of 1827 doesn't know him yet.
 
 A Raspberry Tony is a person of very limited intellect, that is so 
 excessively good-natured, that he put up with everything and is easy 
 to short-change.
 
 There are in my opinion three possibilities of the origin:
 
 Either it's a literary character (of a forgotten piece),
 
 or it's the characterization by profession - somebody who is of such 
 an imbecility, that he can earn his living only by collecting and 
 selling raspberries,
 
 or it's a humorous derivation from the Strawberry George (often 
 appearing as the boon companion of the Raspberry Tony).
 The Strawberry George in turn is a mishearing of the archbishop, In 
 German Erzbischof which sounds similar to Erbeerschorsch. 
(Erdbeer(e)
 (Groundberry) is the Strawberry, Schorsch is the Bavarian form of 
 George).
 
 
 Best!
 Martin
 
 
 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: meteorite

Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites sold from Europe, not as described

2013-06-01 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Mike and all,


it’s really always sad, to experience, what internet did to some, regarding
communication, couth and manners.
As told yesterday to you, as you are obviously not content with the
specimen, we offered you to send in back and to refund you.
Your temper and your readiness to doom and damn each and everyone in public,
as soon as an opportunity shows up, is legendary on that list here,
as the archives tell manifold and that behavior caused so many new
collectors to turn their backs on to their new hobby, when they read your
endless flame wars here on the list, because they had imagined meteorite
collecting more august than to witness brawls on the fish-market.

Here you can observe a difference about Andi’s and my notion of the
meteorite scene, we never took advantage in trying to badmouth you, when you
sold e.g. a “Bensour” of 85g to S.A. which landed with your label at M.V.,
who asked you again and you identified it without doubts as Bensour, but
after he cut it, it turned out to be H and rather a Bassikonou.

To the specimens.
They originally stem from an old private collection from Hungary. A
collection from pre-desert times.
As you might remember even from the times, when you were still peddling with
your little bag with your sales inventory from client to client,
in former times, the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s – the idea of
“pedigree”-collecting wasn’t born yet, the fascination emanating from the
specimens  themselves, the fact that they were meteorites, was for the
collectors overwhelming enough, so that they did not need the little
extra-boost of having a written note, from whom they had acquired them
(because they knew it anyway). Hence they were proud on the specimens as
they were now their specimens, so they wrote their own labels and threw
often the labels of the sellers/source away.
I don’t know how many specimens you acquired from private collections of
these times, but you will agree, that the majority of such specimens comes
without any label or they come with the label of the collector, and we at
least had dozens of cases, where the old original label was preserved, but
where the collector had cut off the part with the name of the dealer or the
museum.
Here with these two specimens of Estherville and Bondoc, it was a luck, that
the labels – why the collector enlarged and laminated once them we don’t
know, maybe for his collection filing box – gave the hint, where the
collector once had acquired them from. 
They were Huss specimens. And Huss at that time wasn’t the glorified
successor of Nininger, he was nothing else than a dealer for his
contemporaries, just like today, a Hupe, a Haiderer or a Cottingham for us.

If you take Bondoc, the specimen numbers are absolutely consistent with all
the numbers of the Huss-Bondocs offered by Geoff Notkin, or at Arnaud in the
Tricottet Collection or on Murray’s fine new collection site or those Peter
Marmet showed us.
Btw. none of these is listed in the both Huss-catalogues, none of these got
a number painted on the surface by Huss. 
(We would have expected you to know that, as U.S.-expert)

As told, we are convinced of the authenticity of the specimens, as well as
those esteemed list members, who had them already in their hands.
And as it is our policy, we offer always a return to our private buyers.
So thank you Anne, Jeff and Mike for your efforts, to keep the “Market”
clean, but we don’t see yet any reason for hysteria.
(Aside from the likeliness, that we after 33 years of meteorite collecting
and 10+ years meteorite dealing, would have nothing better to do,
than to forge Esthervilles and Bondocs and to fake a legend, to sell them at
those cheapest prices we did).

However, and there you most probably will agree,
we see no sense in a written theoretical discussion here on the list, but
like it the sober way.
You’ll bring the Estherville to Ensisheim, we got so many requests for that
very specimen and there are so many experts,
who will identify it as that, what it is, that we won’t be in no way
reluctant or shy to show the specimen to each and everyone,
who wants.
Therefore we will adjourn the further theatre, if you don’t mind, until 3
weeks.


Martin  Andi



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Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites sold from Europe, not as described

2013-06-01 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Jason,

as told, I won't discuss that until perhaps in 3 weeks.
Last year I almost bought the farm, therefore I have no fervor anymore to
take part in such kind of discussions.
I experience once some years ago in Germany a really unbelievable dirty
rumpus against me, which dissolved first in a little cloud of dust and than
in smooth zero. There I still allowed myself to let me a nerves-cancer grow.
But now I learned, it's not worth time and effort. So sorry for the popcorn
seller, I will stay out. Especially from silly dealers' fights.

I swapped as a collector for decades, I sold so many thousands specimens, I
can't remember to have received a single doubt or complaint about
authenticity.

The labels are a nice extra, the persons and the source we acquired the
specimens from have zero to do with contemporary meteorite market. And
anyway, at those prices we offered them, we could have also thrown the
labels in the dustbin before, and they would have sold fast.

Just a request came in from - no offense meant - a veteran collector of
broad experience, in whom I trust more to rate the specimen, than in your
tele-diagnosis-skills, asking whether the Estherville would be free again
now.

So it's quite simple and valid not only for us, but for anyone wanting to
buy a meteoritic specimen:
If you have doubts in the specimen or in the seller:  Just don't buy.

And these were my last cents
in that non-affair.
Martin


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Jason Utas [mailto:meteorite...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 1. Juni 2013 14:23
An: Martin Altmann; Meteorite-list
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites sold from Europe, not as described

If you take Bondoc, the specimen numbers are absolutely consistent with all
the numbers of the Huss-Bondocs offered by Geoff Notkin, or at Arnaud in the
Tricottet Collection or on Murray’s fine new collection site or those Peter
Marmet showed us.

Yes, but the rear (and cut face of it) look like slag compared to other
Bondocs on the market.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0_nkw=bon
doc+meteorite_sacat=0_from=R40

There are a variety of textures, but none so porous, and the knobbly back
and metal distribution look rather like slag.  Such observations are not
conclusive, but...meh.

I'd return or ditch the material.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 5:05 AM, Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
wrote:
 Hi Mike and all,


 it’s really always sad, to experience, what internet did to some, 
 regarding communication, couth and manners.
 As told yesterday to you, as you are obviously not content with the 
 specimen, we offered you to send in back and to refund you.
 Your temper and your readiness to doom and damn each and everyone in 
 public, as soon as an opportunity shows up, is legendary on that list 
 here, as the archives tell manifold and that behavior caused so many 
 new collectors to turn their backs on to their new hobby, when they 
 read your endless flame wars here on the list, because they had 
 imagined meteorite collecting more august than to witness brawls on the
fish-market.

 Here you can observe a difference about Andi’s and my notion of the 
 meteorite scene, we never took advantage in trying to badmouth you, 
 when you sold e.g. a “Bensour” of 85g to S.A. which landed with your 
 label at M.V., who asked you again and you identified it without 
 doubts as Bensour, but after he cut it, it turned out to be H and rather a
Bassikonou.

 To the specimens.
 They originally stem from an old private collection from Hungary. A 
 collection from pre-desert times.
 As you might remember even from the times, when you were still 
 peddling with your little bag with your sales inventory from client to 
 client, in former times, the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s – the idea of 
 “pedigree”-collecting wasn’t born yet, the fascination emanating from 
 the specimens  themselves, the fact that they were meteorites, was for 
 the collectors overwhelming enough, so that they did not need the 
 little extra-boost of having a written note, from whom they had 
 acquired them (because they knew it anyway). Hence they were proud on 
 the specimens as they were now their specimens, so they wrote their 
 own labels and threw often the labels of the sellers/source away.
 I don’t know how many specimens you acquired from private collections 
 of these times, but you will agree, that the majority of such 
 specimens comes without any label or they come with the label of the 
 collector, and we at least had dozens of cases, where the old original 
 label was preserved, but where the collector had cut off the part with 
 the name of the dealer or the museum.
 Here with these two specimens of Estherville and Bondoc, it was a 
 luck, that the labels – why the collector enlarged and laminated once 
 them we don’t know, maybe for his collection filing box – gave the 
 hint, where the collector once had acquired them from

Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites sold from Europe, not as described

2013-06-01 Thread Martin Altmann
Mike, it's enough. I'm not your Raspberry Tony.

I wrote to the list because you wrote ke a very nasty private email

I sent you a single email, yesterday at 11:11 p.m. containing the same content 
about labels ect, just I wrote here today,
plus offering you to send the Estherville back and to refund the purchase price 
and the shipment costs.
That email didn't contain any single harsh word, neither was it nastier than 
the first email we wrote to the list today.
An answer you didn't wrote to us, instead we could read your effusions this 
morning on the list.
So stop that immature clownery or look for somebody else to play with.


Where is my refund? I will be happy when my money is back in my account.

Your email yesterday came in half an hour earlier than our answer to you.
As you might now, booking period of banks is in Germany (and Europe) ending at 
5:00p.m.
And booking takes place only on working days not on weekends.
For accounting and tax purposes we have to withdraw each Paypal-payment onto 
our bank accounts.
So we have first to refill the paypal-account again, which takes 2 working days.
Hence probably Wednesday you'll get your refund,

Which btw. matches the 5 days you had needed to pay the specimen.

Else, much fun still in continuing,
I won't support you in that,
as in past you often enough you talked yourself in a ride or fall on this list,
and anyway I trust enough in the competence of the collectors,
to built their own opinion, what they will think about this.

So see you in Ensisheim,
Until then I won't be at your disposal here.
Have a nice day,
Martin


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com 
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Michael 
Farmer
Gesendet: Samstag, 1. Juni 2013 15:38
An: Martin Altmann
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites sold from Europe, not as described

Martin,
Do you feel a plastic label printed on your home computer qualifies as an 
American Meteorite Laboratory passport as you write in your email? 
I can print such things in seconds, as can anyone. So by using your usually 
very high standards, I can print €500 notes on my computer, as long as I put 
the name of the European bank reserve on the fake, it would make it a real €500 
note? I think I'll try to pass a few around at dealers tables in Ensisheim and 
see how many rocks I can buy.
Sorry but this collector is calling your passport a fake travel document.

You sold this Estherville to me as an extremely rare well documented piece, you 
clearly state that it is with AML labels, but there is no AML label, just a 
plastic modern-made card. You know it is NOT am AML label, and selling it as 
such is a scam. Since there is not label, no number on the stone, absolutely 
nothing to show provenance, clearly the entire email you spent hours writing 
was a sales gimmick.  You know I am a knowledgeable and serious collector, so 
why you would pass off this manufactured piece to me I don't know. Surely 
knowing my temper as you right here, you would know what the response would be? 
The only reason I bought it is because you stated it was AML with label. I 
figured that if it has an AML label then I was safe. I did not consider that I 
would receive a plastic card in substitute for AML documentation. I don't know 
who did it, or what Romanian collection it came from, I can't understand how 
you passed that off as acceptable.

Where is my refund? I will be happy when my money is back in my account.

Why you are defending these fake pieces with a story about a mislabeled 
meteorite I sold years ago I am not sure. The piece was cut and yes, it was in 
the wrong box or bag or whatever.
Mistake yes, fraud of making and selling fake old labels and provenance, no. I 
have made at least one mistake mixing up a piece, but you know what, thankfully 
a collector caught it, I OK'd him to cut and see and once cut we recognized the 
error and removed the piece. The way things should go.

I wrote to the list because you wrote ke a very nasty private email telling me 
how many decades you have been selling and how you could just resell the piece 
angered me. You know they are fake, now the whole list knows, you can compare 
your murchison to real murchisons and see there is no comparison. I don't 
want them resold onto perhaps other less knowledgable collectors. 

Something really really is fishy is going on here.

By the way, you sold me and others these pieces in this forum, so why not clear 
it up in this forum? 
I also do not want to see these things sold and resold for years to come.

What about the obvious fake Murchison? You don't even answer as to why you are 
selling such a piece.

I am really concerned at how this has come to pass.

Michael Farmer


Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 1, 2013, at 5:05 AM, Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de 
wrote:

 Hi Mike and all,
 
 
 it’s really always sad, to experience

[meteorite-list] How sweeet!

2013-05-31 Thread Martin Altmann
Wanna have!!

A japanese chocolatier is making now chocolate meteorites!
From Allende to Yamato!

Dirk, what is the price for the set?

http://www.rihga.co.jp/osaka/leclat/kiseki.html

Best!
Martin

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Re: [meteorite-list] Nickel-iron meteorite used to make 5, 000 year old Egyptian beads

2013-05-30 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Robin,

only short remark,
that the iron beads from the Gerzeh tombs are of meteoritic origin (due to 
their high Ni-content),
was already stated in 1932 by Gerald Wainwright.
Also Buchwald 1975 seems to have them.

Best!
Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com 
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Robin 
Whittle
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. Mai 2013 06:11
An: METEORITE LIST
Betreff: [meteorite-list] Nickel-iron meteorite used to make 5, 000 year old 
Egyptian beads

The article:

http://www.nature.com/news/iron-in-egyptian-relics-came-from-space-1.13091

reports on an article behind a paywall:

  Analysis of a prehistoric Egyptian iron bead with implications for
  the use and perception of meteorite iron in ancient Egypt

Diane Johnson, Joyce Tyldesley, Tristan Lowe, Philip J. Withers,
Monica M. Grady.

Meteoritics  Planetary Science  online: 20 May 2013
DOI: 10./maps.12120

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./maps.12120/abstract


  Abstract:

Tube-shaped beads excavated from grave pits at the prehistoric
Gerzeh cemetery, approximately 3300 BCE, represent the earliest
known use of iron in Egypt. Using a combination of scanning
electron microscopy and micro X-ray microcomputer tomography, we
show that microstructural and chemical analysis of a Gerzeh iron
bead is consistent with a cold-worked iron meteorite. Thin
fragments of parallel bands of taenite within a meteoritic
Widmanstätten pattern are present, with structural distortion
caused by cold-working. The metal fragments retain their original
chemistry of approximately 30 wt% nickel. The bulk of the bead is
highly oxidized, with only approximately 2.4% of the total bead
volume remaining as metal. Our results show that the first known
example of the use of iron in Egypt was produced from a meteorite,
its celestial origin having implications for both the perception of
meteorite iron by ancient Egyptians and the development of
metallurgical knowledge in the Nile Valley.

The Nature write-up includes a quote from a museum creator that during the 
time of the Pharaohs, the gods were believed to have bones made of iron.

  - Robin

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[meteorite-list] ORANGE fresh Chelyabinsk (was: Two special Chelyabinsk individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented!)

2013-05-29 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Steve, Fred, all...

Marvelous!

Now we saw examples of Bensour, Mauretania, Chelyabinsk and have from old
literature Pultusk and Mocs..

...seems that Captain Blood's Orientata needs a new chapter:
Color-Orientation!

(Fascinating, after such a long time spent with meteorites, we from the
Meteorite House weren't aware of that phenomenon, 
you always can learn something new!).

Though we have to have some discipline and to be cautious, not to establish
a new artificial hype or to create a new fashion, multiplying the prices,
as it had happened, if you remember, first with the hammers, then with the
meteorites with holes and again afterwards with the irons with impact
craters.

At least now the Ensisheim visitor have an additional hint, what to look
for, if they'll rummage the tables of the Russian colleagues, which will sag
from the loads of fantastic Chelyabinsk individuals.

Cheers!
Meteorite House


On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 9:58 PM, Steve Witt stelo...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Martin, Fred and all,

 I just got in some of the new meteorite from Mauritania showing the 
 same thing. No black lipping, but brown crust on the back side of a 
 fresh stone.

 Front:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevewitt/8870872109/

 Back:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevewitt/8870872297/



 Steve Witt
 IMCA #9020
 http://imca.cc/


 
 From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 4:03 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] (House-AD): ORANGE fresh Chelyabinsk (was: 
 Two special Chelyabinsk individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust -
 color-oriented!)


 Hi Fred,

 Exactly and Wow!
 With your Bensour it seems that just the same had happened!
 Has also the black rim!


My guess at the time I got it, was simply a matter of primary fusion 
crust
 (the brownish one) and secondary fusion crust (the darker one). Could 
 it be a matter of altitude where it was formed? Speed  temperature of 
 fusion?...

 There we definitely have to ask our experts of aerodynamics and 
 chemistry here.

 To me it's evident, because the black crust lips over the brown one, 
 that that brown on the back must have been formed before the crust on the
apex.

 There are going things in flight on the back of the stones 
 remember the Tamdakht-Couscous or the 12.5kg-flat heat-shield, which 
 had also such fragments incorporated in the skin..

 Now these color-crusts with Chelyabinsk (and Tissint).

 Here, look, our most shocking example!
 Is something for Jan, Menno or Rob,
 Because half of the stone is almost:ORANGE!

 Has 63.55g

 These sides are normal:
 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_01.JPG

 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_02.JPG

 But look at that!

 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_03.JPG

 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_04.JPG

 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_05.JPG

 Hmm, shall we sell it too?
 O.k

 :-)
 Your Meteorite House



 Von: Meteoriteshow [mailto:meteorites...@free.fr]
 Gesendet: Montag, 27. Mai 2013 17:32
 An: 'Martin Altmann'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Betreff: RE: [meteorite-list] (House-AD): Two special Chelyabinsk 
 individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented!

 Hi All again,

 It seems that my link didn't work; let me try again, actually I have 
 several
 pictures:

 http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/bengu
 erir-7
 9.6g(1).jpg

 http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/bengu
 erir-7
 9.6g(7).jpg

 http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/bengu
 erir-7
 9.6g(6).jpg

 http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/bengu
 erir-7
 9.6g(3).jpg


 Cheers

 Fred
 www.meteoriteshow.com
 IMCA #2491

 -Message d'origine-
 De : meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
 [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] De la part de 
 Martin Altmann Envoyé : lundi 27 mai 2013 14:26 À : 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Objet : [meteorite-list] (House-AD): Two special Chelyabinsk 
 individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented!
 Importance : Haute

 Hello there,

 we have to share with you a pretty exciting observation.
 It was here already on the list, that some of you found on the 
 first-pick Chelyabinskis places with a brownish, nevertheless fresh fusion
crust.
 That
 phenomenon btw. you had sometimes also on a few Tissints, there the 
 brown crust was even translucent (were horribly difficult to sell, 
 because people watching the photos were skeptical, thought, they 
 wouldn't be fresh, but weathered - and that, where no iron is present 
 in Tissint to rust).

 Many of you blossomed during the last 3 months into true 
 Chelyabinsk-experts, so please, pay attention to those two individuals 
 and tell us your
 opinion:

 75.45g

 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_01.JPG

Re: [meteorite-list] Red(dish) Fusion Crust

2013-05-29 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi,

But, then...why don't H chondrites usually form such red fusion crusts?

But they do,
the example on Svend's page is a Buzzard Coulee, and in literature you read
it about Pultusk.

This list seems to have a short memory.

Well, the specialty here, is that a colour variation in the crust, if found
only on one side, can be used as criterion for orientation. Most of the
examples shown here, underline, that stones must have had at least a longer
phase of stable flight, because it is indicated by the lipping around the
edges of these sides. (Which identify the coloured sides as backsides).

Best,
Martin  


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Re: [meteorite-list] Red(dish) Fusion Crust

2013-05-29 Thread Martin Altmann
Hiho,

I'm thrilled, maybe now many readers of the list
rush to their drawers and showcases, to look for more examples of other
falls,
where they thought before, that the lighter colour was due terrestrial
oxidation and the individuals not that fresh.

Let's wait, what they'll find!
Martin


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Jason Utas [mailto:meteorite...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Mai 2013 18:02
An: Martin Altmann
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Red(dish) Fusion Crust

Hola,
Looking at his pagethe Buzzard is red to a much lesser extent.
Good observation, though -- it makes sense that H's would still show at
least some hematite presence, if that is was causes the red coloration.

The first link in my last email goes against what you say above.  Note that
the pictured stone has a black, frothy rear and a reddish shield-shaped
front.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Martin Altmann
altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 Hi,

But, then...why don't H chondrites usually form such red fusion crusts?

 But they do,
 the example on Svend's page is a Buzzard Coulee, and in literature you 
 read it about Pultusk.

This list seems to have a short memory.

 Well, the specialty here, is that a colour variation in the crust, if 
 found only on one side, can be used as criterion for orientation. Most 
 of the examples shown here, underline, that stones must have had at 
 least a longer phase of stable flight, because it is indicated by the 
 lipping around the edges of these sides. (Which identify the coloured
sides as backsides).

 Best,
 Martin


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 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
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[meteorite-list] Color-orientation described by Doell (1887), Tschermak and Rath with Mocs and Pultusk!

2013-05-28 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Fred, Mike, all,

that phenomenon oft he red-brownish fusion crust is already described.
Herb Raab (asteroid 3184) found that interesting article by Eduard Doell:
Two New Criteria for the Orientation of the Meteorites,
in Jahrbuch der k. k. geol. Reichsanatalt, 37. Band, 2. Heft (1887), S.
193-206.

We translate freely his quote:

The [...] features used for orientation are:  1. seams of the rind, 2.
shape of the surface, 3. depressions on the faces,
4. small meteorites assembled on the backside along with filaments of melt
and drops. 5. flowlines 6. diversity of colour and luster of the rind.

[...]

Vom Rath describes on the Pultusk-stones reddish-brown Rinds of an almost
metallic luster, which show no lippings.
'Over that red Melt ran a second, black and shiny one, originating from the
apex. The black melt is a product of a higher or longer lasting heat,
causing a more complete melting of the stone and especially adding a higher
amount of iron to the fusion crust.' Tschermak found on the backsides of the
stones of Mocs a brown up to copper red, lightly shiny rind.


Voilá!
Thank you Herbert!

The Meteorite-House-Team



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[meteorite-list] (House-AD): Two special Chelyabinsk individuals with Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented!

2013-05-27 Thread Martin Altmann
Hello there,

we have to share with you a pretty exciting observation.
It was here already on the list, that some of you found on the first-pick
Chelyabinskis places with a brownish, nevertheless fresh fusion crust. That
phenomenon btw. you had sometimes also on a few Tissints, there the brown
crust was even translucent (were horribly difficult to sell, because people
watching the photos were skeptical, thought, they wouldn't be fresh, but
weathered - and that, where no iron is present in Tissint to rust). 

Many of you blossomed during the last 3 months into true
Chelyabinsk-experts,
so please, pay attention to those two individuals and tell us your opinion:

75.45g

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_02.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_03.JPG


68.37g

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_02.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_03.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_04.JPG


Well, baffling, aren't they?

Both of them have a side, and ONLY one side, which is fully coated by the
brown crust,
while all other sides are black, as usual.

Here:
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_02.JPG

And here:
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_02.JPG


And you see, that the brown-side is framed all around by a lipping, which is
black,
hence most would therefore say, only because of the rollover-lip, that the
stones are flight-oriented.
At least one can say, by means of the circular lipping around the edges,
that the stones had for a longer time a stable position in flight.
And that the brown side is the backside, the lee-side.

And what is striking, is, that the lipping overlaps the brown crust, hence
the brown crust must have formed simultaneously, while the front surface was
melting.

Now one could speculate, what could have caused that different crust - from
the chip missing in one of the stones, we see that the material beneath the
brown crust isn't special (anyway, on the sides the fusion crust for the
same material is black).
Thus maybe the different color could stem from a lack of oxygen, when it
melted, on the lee-side of the stone in flight, where one has a low
pressure/partial vacuum?

We think, one could even speak of a new category of orientation:

COLOR-ORIENTED!


Well, if you like to have them, what shall we do with so special
specimens...
Let's make 20$/g to be among the very cheapest Chelyabinsk-offerers,
+ 50cents for the lipping, where others would scream: oriented, oriented!
+ 1.5$/g for the fantastic color-orientation...

Makes22$/g.


Fascinating, aren't they?

Your Meteorite House Team


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Re: [meteorite-list] (House-AD): ORANGE fresh Chelyabinsk (was: Two special Chelyabinsk individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented!)

2013-05-27 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Fred,

Exactly and Wow!
With your Bensour it seems that just the same had happened!
Has also the black rim!


My guess at the time I got it, was simply a matter of primary fusion crust
(the brownish one) and secondary fusion crust (the darker one). Could it be
a matter of altitude where it was formed? Speed  temperature of fusion?...

There we definitely have to ask our experts of aerodynamics and chemistry
here.

To me it's evident, because the black crust lips over the brown one, that
that brown on the back must have been formed before the crust on the apex.

There are going things in flight on the back of the stones remember the
Tamdakht-Couscous or the 12.5kg-flat heat-shield, which had also such
fragments incorporated in the skin..

Now these color-crusts with Chelyabinsk (and Tissint).

Here, look, our most shocking example!
Is something for Jan, Menno or Rob,
Because half of the stone is almost:ORANGE!

Has 63.55g

These sides are normal:
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_01.JPG

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_02.JPG

But look at that!

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_03.JPG

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_04.JPG

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_05.JPG

Hmm, shall we sell it too?
O.k

:-)
Your Meteorite House



Von: Meteoriteshow [mailto:meteorites...@free.fr] 
Gesendet: Montag, 27. Mai 2013 17:32
An: 'Martin Altmann'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: RE: [meteorite-list] (House-AD): Two special Chelyabinsk
individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented!

Hi All again,

It seems that my link didn't work; let me try again, actually I have several
pictures:

http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/benguerir-7
9.6g(1).jpg

http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/benguerir-7
9.6g(7).jpg

http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/benguerir-7
9.6g(6).jpg

http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/benguerir-7
9.6g(3).jpg


Cheers

Fred
www.meteoriteshow.com
IMCA #2491

-Message d'origine-
De : meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] De la part de Martin
Altmann
Envoyé : lundi 27 mai 2013 14:26
À : meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Objet : [meteorite-list] (House-AD): Two special Chelyabinsk individualswith
Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented!
Importance : Haute

Hello there,

we have to share with you a pretty exciting observation.
It was here already on the list, that some of you found on the first-pick
Chelyabinskis places with a brownish, nevertheless fresh fusion crust. That
phenomenon btw. you had sometimes also on a few Tissints, there the brown
crust was even translucent (were horribly difficult to sell, because people
watching the photos were skeptical, thought, they wouldn't be fresh, but
weathered - and that, where no iron is present in Tissint to rust). 

Many of you blossomed during the last 3 months into true
Chelyabinsk-experts,
so please, pay attention to those two individuals and tell us your opinion:

75.45g

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_02.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_03.JPG


68.37g

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_02.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_03.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_04.JPG


Well, baffling, aren't they?

Both of them have a side, and ONLY one side, which is fully coated by the
brown crust,
while all other sides are black, as usual.

Here:
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_02.JPG

And here:
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_02.JPG


And you see, that the brown-side is framed all around by a lipping, which is
black,
hence most would therefore say, only because of the rollover-lip, that the
stones are flight-oriented.
At least one can say, by means of the circular lipping around the edges,
that the stones had for a longer time a stable position in flight.
And that the brown side is the backside, the lee-side.

And what is striking, is, that the lipping overlaps the brown crust, hence
the brown crust must have formed simultaneously, while the front surface was
melting.

Now one could speculate, what could have caused that different crust - from
the chip missing in one of the stones, we see that the material beneath the
brown crust isn't special (anyway, on the sides the fusion crust for the
same material is black).
Thus maybe the different color could stem from a lack of oxygen, when it
melted, on the lee-side of the stone in flight, where one has a low
pressure/partial vacuum?

We think, one could even speak of a new category of orientation:

COLOR-ORIENTED!


Well, if you like to have them, what

Re: [meteorite-list] Feb 11, 2012, Qinhai province, Fall

2013-05-23 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Mike,

indeed, check the archives, I'm busy.
All that exportation-ban-and-all-belongs-to-the-state-blah-blah was based on
some administrative orders of the 19th century, where the clerks were
advised where to forward meteorites to, if they get hands on,
hence touching the ownership-question in no way.

Today you have it in the Indian constitution, that meteorites don't belong
to the Republic.

The paragraph I gave here on the list.
Which says, that all finds, which before were bestowed upon the King, shall
be property of the Republic.

King:  In the short time between independence and the formation of the new
constitution,
The English King was degraded from an Emperor of India to a King of India.

Hence de facto it's the British Common law adapted to the new Republic.
And as we all know, in England and Scotland, the finds of gold and silver go
to Queen Lizzy,
but the finds of meteorites go to Rob Elliott.

See also the very funny Monty-Python-style debate in the House of Lords
about a bill,
which asked to make all meteorites to a property of the state (the link to
the protocol I gave once here on the list).

Anyway,
Meteorite laws - that is the (self-chosen) job of the IMCA,
so most probably they can answer all your questions of that legal complex in
a more qualified way.

Best!
Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic
Stone  Ironworks
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Mai 2013 04:32
An: Greg Catterton
Cc: Meteorite List; robertbeauf...@rocketmail.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Feb 11, 2012, Qinhai province, Fall

Here we go again with Katol.

Someone show me the law against exporting meteorites from India.

And I don't mean show me a 150-year old British Empire mandate that no
longer applies.

I have spoken to people in India about this and they all say the same thing
- they know of no modern Indian law against meteorite exportation.

Whoever started this rumor is engaging in speculation at best and they have
an agenda at the worst.

AFAIK, Katol is legal to own.  If someone can produce a reliable and
authoritative source who is familiar with Indian law and that person can
state that it is indeed illegal and point to the relevant laws, then I will
change my mind.

Best regards,

MikeG
--
-
Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest -
http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
-



On 5/22/13, Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com wrote:
 thing is, katol is illegal to own or export without permit...

 Greg

 Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android


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[meteorite-list] Was Feb 11, 2012, Qinhai province, Fall - short Argentina question

2013-05-23 Thread Martin Altmann
Addendum.

It's article 296 of the Indian constitution.
Also famous meteoricist Hey reported on the last meeting of the UNESCO
Working Group on Meteorites in 1967,
that according to that article meteorites are regarded in India as bona
vacantia (id est: ownerless objects).

Anyway,
I could find over the years only a very few countries,
where meteorites automatically are property of the state
(now not regarding any landowner-finder questions, but general national laws
- hence where the meteorite is property of the state because it is a
meteorite).

These are:

Some provincial federal states in Australia.
South Africa
Namibia

Countries explicitly mentioning meteorites in their national laws are:

Argentina
Botswana
Canada (have still to read)
Lesotho
New Zealand
The Philippines
Poland
Slovakia
Swaziland


For clarifying, cause these were most often mentioned else, suspected to
have specific restrictions:

China (pers.comm Geological Survey of China)
Once discussed to introduce a meteorite law, but didn't install any.

Brazil, other than once wrongly reported by the former IMCA-president has no
meteorite laws,  neither any export regulations.

Oman has no meteorites in their laws.

Switzerland has no meteorites in their laws.

UNESCO  Unidroit conventions have no meteorites in their suggestion
lists.

India has no meteorites in their laws.

If you know more countries with meteorite laws,
please add them.

But for that purpose, please be sure, that these laws contain the term
meteorites.
Laws containing vague terms like treasure find, resource, antiquity,
artifact, object of scientific interest, natural monument, movable heritage,
object of cultural relevance...and so on are of no interest,
as such terms are subject to interpretation (in case of a court)
and not helpful.

If you want to regulate meteorites, write meteorite in your law.

More I couldn't find yet, regarding national laws. Problem is, I'm not
trained like Douglas Schmitt and not so well paid, that I could visit the
libraries of the world, hunting for meteorite laws. And many countries
haven't their legal codex published yet on internet or not published
English, French, Spanish...


Now to my question.

It's said, that there is now a general ban of exports for meteorites in
Argentina,
though I'm unable to find that very law.
Does anyone has it?

I have only the following laws:

26.306 (2007): which converted meteorites into a moveable heritage in the
sense of and to handle like given in

19.943 (1972): the ratification of the UNESCO 1970 convention
And
25.527 (1995): the implemention of the UNIDROIT convention

(Well and of course the collecting ban in the Chaco-province  exist too.
3.562 (1990))

In none of these laws I can find, that moveable/cultural heritage is
excluded from exportation or not,
neither what to do, if you want to export it legally.


Any help?


Second question is about Algeria,
Nothing to find on web.

So I asked a IMCA-Director to contact and to ask Prof. Djelloul Belhai
(Université des Sciences et de la technologie Houari Boumediene) to supply
us with the wordings of the specific laws, cause in one of his publications
he once mentioned the draconian punishments introduced for
meteorite-plundering.
Has that meanwhile happened?


Thanks in advance,
And don't bash me,
My position is clear:No human is illegal. No Meteorite is illegal.
(and Free Milly!, I confess, I gave up).
Best,
Martin


And disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer, I'm no lawyer, by no means these
informationshall be regarded as da truth or valid or as complete. Ect.ppp.
For reliable information contact your next IMCA-office.

PPS: By far Kuhlest meteorite law on Earth has definitely Swaziland - worthy
for a Harvey-Award!

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Martin
Altmann
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Mai 2013 16:17
An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Feb 11, 2012, Qinhai province, Fall

Hi Mike,

indeed, check the archives, I'm busy.
All that exportation-ban-and-all-belongs-to-the-state-blah-blah was based on
some administrative orders of the 19th century, where the clerks were
advised where to forward meteorites to, if they get hands on, hence touching
the ownership-question in no way.

Today you have it in the Indian constitution, that meteorites don't belong
to the Republic.

The paragraph I gave here on the list.
Which says, that all finds, which before were bestowed upon the King, shall
be property of the Republic.

King:  In the short time between independence and the formation of the new
constitution, The English King was degraded from an Emperor of India to a
King of India.

Hence de facto it's the British Common law adapted to the new Republic.
And as we all know, in England and Scotland, the finds of gold and silver go
to Queen Lizzy, but the finds of meteorites go to Rob Elliott.

See also the very

Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction

2013-05-22 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi boyz,

maybe my old price guide of the season 2000/2001 is helpful?
I compiled it then from 92 offerers from the web and from snail-mail offers.

It's inflation adjusted for the year 2011.

You find it in the German forum (you don't have to be a member or logged in,
to use the Price guide)
http://www.jgr-apolda.eu/index.php?topic=6912.0


The lines read as follows:

Meteorite Name - Type today - average price/g  (lowest-highest) - number of
offerers.
*=fall   (then)


Let me search the Martians


DaG 476   SHER  1733$/g ( 457 - 3712 )13

DaG 489   SHER  1014$/g (550 - 1600)  7

DaG 670   SHER715$/g (512 -1024)   2

DaG 735   SHER   704$/g (704 )   1

Dho 019   SHER  1536$/g ( 512 - 2560) 1

Los Angeles 001  SHER5184$/g(3200 - 7168)   2

Shergotty*   SHER 6400$/g( 6400)1

Zagami*   SHER  1823.44$/g  ( 576 -10666)   12

Nakhla*Nakhlit  3653$/g(1960 - 5760)   4

Lafayette Nakhlit  44965$/g   (29482-64000)   2

Governador Valadares  Nakhlit   46163$/g  (25078-8)  3

Chassigny*   Chassignite 87751$/g (51200-126720)   3



And the Lunars:

Calcalong Creek LUN-M 273485$/g   (98970-448000) 1
   (damals LUN-A)

DaG 262   LUN-A49400$/g(38234-64000)3  

DaG 400   LUN-A24415$/g  (12800-32000) 8


And that was it.


Main reason for the difference there between Martians and Moonies, I assume,
is a relatively simple and unromantic one.

Zagami had a pretty large tkw.
And it took until into the second half of the 1980s until it was fully
established,
that the shergottites most probably stem from planet Mars.

Before, and I still remember it from the annual Munich shows, you could read
on the Zagami-labels
as type:  anomalous Eucrite.

And as eucrite one simply couldn't ask such exorbitant prices.
On the other hand, when the suspicion of the Martian origin became stalwart,
it simply would have been not possible to multiple the former price within
1-3 years with a factor of 500x .

Enjoy using the old Price Guide,
is always nice to see for me,
that the old laborious work from then,
is still sometimes good for something today.

Best!
Martin



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam
Hupe
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Mai 2013 20:55
An: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction

It is very simple.  There were only a couple of lunar meteorites available
at the time while there was several times the weight available in Martian
which has always been the case.  Collectors would be happy with a single
gram of Martian since one piece looked very similar to the next.  Lunar
breccias on the other hand, display many features so each piece was
different enough to create demand for multiple specimens per collection
instead of a single token piece.  The least expensive Lunaites of all time
came from Oman if you adjust the value of the dollar six years ago before it
lost most of its value.   The supply has dwindled on the Omani lunar
meteorites so most have tripled in price.


NWA changed the landscape for both Lunar an Martian meteorites.  During this
depression, lunar material has remained nearly the same and held most of its
value while Martian offerings are still off peak.  A Martian fall for
$300.00/gram is a bargain.  On the other hand, a Lunar fall could run into
the tens of thousands per gram if we were ever lucky enough to witness one.


I have dealt more Martian and Lunar material than most dealers and see that
they both make good investments if purchased properly.  The entire
collectables market sector has been down the last six years and meteorites
have retained most of their long-term value unless emotional buying was in
play.

Ask any Moroccan what excites them more, a new Martian or a Lunar find? They
know they can get way more any lunar meteorite than Martian so the answer
will always be the same.  Lunar is king.


Adam




- Original Message -
From: Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com
To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction

I dont disagree, lunar is my favorite but it makes me question... why has
Lunar meteorite value decreased from $25,000 a gram to $400 a gram or less -
in some cases as low as $200 a gram for one certain lunar meteorite?
Thats a loss in value of $24,600 or more in 14 years on lunar while Martian
has increased.
Perhaps Martian samples are on the way to becoming the new king?


Greg Catterton

Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction

2013-05-22 Thread Martin Altmann
Oops, forgot a shergottite:

Sayh al Uhaymir 005 SHER  930.56$/g  (930.56   )1


Best,
Ma

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Mai 2013 00:39
An: 'meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com'
Betreff: AW: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction

Hi boyz,

maybe my old price guide of the season 2000/2001 is helpful?
I compiled it then from 92 offerers from the web and from snail-mail offers.

It's inflation adjusted for the year 2011.

You find it in the German forum (you don't have to be a member or logged in,
to use the Price guide) http://www.jgr-apolda.eu/index.php?topic=6912.0


The lines read as follows:

Meteorite Name - Type today - average price/g  (lowest-highest) - number of
offerers.
*=fall   (then)


Let me search the Martians


DaG 476   SHER  1733$/g ( 457 - 3712 )13

DaG 489   SHER  1014$/g (550 - 1600)  7

DaG 670   SHER715$/g (512 -1024)   2

DaG 735   SHER   704$/g (704 )   1

Dho 019   SHER  1536$/g ( 512 - 2560) 1

Los Angeles 001  SHER5184$/g(3200 - 7168)   2

Shergotty*   SHER 6400$/g( 6400)1

Zagami*   SHER  1823.44$/g  ( 576 -10666)   12

Nakhla*Nakhlit  3653$/g(1960 - 5760)   4

Lafayette Nakhlit  44965$/g   (29482-64000)   2

Governador Valadares  Nakhlit   46163$/g  (25078-8)  3

Chassigny*   Chassignite 87751$/g (51200-126720)   3



And the Lunars:

Calcalong Creek LUN-M 273485$/g   (98970-448000) 1
   (damals LUN-A)

DaG 262   LUN-A49400$/g(38234-64000)3  

DaG 400   LUN-A24415$/g  (12800-32000) 8


And that was it.


Main reason for the difference there between Martians and Moonies, I assume,
is a relatively simple and unromantic one.

Zagami had a pretty large tkw.
And it took until into the second half of the 1980s until it was fully
established, that the shergottites most probably stem from planet Mars.

Before, and I still remember it from the annual Munich shows, you could read
on the Zagami-labels as type:  anomalous Eucrite.

And as eucrite one simply couldn't ask such exorbitant prices.
On the other hand, when the suspicion of the Martian origin became stalwart,
it simply would have been not possible to multiple the former price within
1-3 years with a factor of 500x .

Enjoy using the old Price Guide,
is always nice to see for me,
that the old laborious work from then,
is still sometimes good for something today.

Best!
Martin



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam
Hupe
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Mai 2013 20:55
An: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction

It is very simple.  There were only a couple of lunar meteorites available
at the time while there was several times the weight available in Martian
which has always been the case.  Collectors would be happy with a single
gram of Martian since one piece looked very similar to the next.  Lunar
breccias on the other hand, display many features so each piece was
different enough to create demand for multiple specimens per collection
instead of a single token piece.  The least expensive Lunaites of all time
came from Oman if you adjust the value of the dollar six years ago before it
lost most of its value.   The supply has dwindled on the Omani lunar
meteorites so most have tripled in price.


NWA changed the landscape for both Lunar an Martian meteorites.  During this
depression, lunar material has remained nearly the same and held most of its
value while Martian offerings are still off peak.  A Martian fall for
$300.00/gram is a bargain.  On the other hand, a Lunar fall could run into
the tens of thousands per gram if we were ever lucky enough to witness one.


I have dealt more Martian and Lunar material than most dealers and see that
they both make good investments if purchased properly.  The entire
collectables market sector has been down the last six years and meteorites
have retained most of their long-term value unless emotional buying was in
play.

Ask any Moroccan what excites them more, a new Martian or a Lunar find? They
know they can get way more any lunar meteorite than Martian so the answer
will always be the same.  Lunar is king.


Adam




- Original Message -
From: Greg Catterton star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com
To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction

I dont disagree, lunar is my favorite

[meteorite-list] House-Pedigree-AD: Large Nininger Bondoc (244g) superb Nininger Estherville Indivdual (111g) with AML-Labels

2013-05-16 Thread Martin Altmann
Dear Collectors,

today we want to accelerate especially the heartbeat of the lovers of
documented historic specimens,
in setting up for sale two of such, which would be without doubt also very
remarkable,
if they wouldn't be accompanied by their passports of provenience, the
labels of the 
American Meteorite Laboratory.

The American Meteorite Laboratory (AML) was founded in 1960 in Westminster,
Colorado by H.H.Nininger's daughter Margaret 
and her husband Glenn Huss, to reestablish and continue the work of her
father with his American Meteorite Museum,
which he had finally to shut down for financial reasons in 1953. 
The AML had such an outreach in the institutional and private meteorite
scene, that it served even as an eponym for the meteorite dealers of the
following generation, like e.g. the Suisse Meteorite Laboratory and the
Bavarian Meteorite Laboratory.

Instead of giving you here the hundredth instant-biography of Nininger or
Huss, we rather like to honor:
The women! Who so undeservedly are standing small and faint behind the
gloriole of their husbands,
who never would have achieved that, they are celebrated for, if there hadn't
been the support by the passion, the patience, the knowledge and the special
abilities of their wives.(see also post scriptum).

Therefore you get here for reading the obit for Margaret Huss, who died in
2007:
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_5878113


Now to the exhibits:

BONDOC.

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Bondoc_244_g_004.JPG

Bondoc was one of the largest coups ever of the Niningers.
The story of the adventurous recovery is told in one of Al Mitterling's
Nininger Moments:
http://kuerzer.de/AlBondy

Unfortunately the large slices cut from the huge main mass turned out to be
everything else than stable
and they crumbled and disintegrated to the harder iron nodules, manifold
abundant in Bondoc, in larger silicate inclusions and crumbs of rust.

The AML-Bondoc offered now is pretty massive and stable, looks like to be an
endcut, 
and belongs to the iron-rich mesosideritic looking specimens, which seems to
be scarcer than the preserved iron nodules and eucritic/silicate-inclusions.

244 gram it has!

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Bondoc_244_g_001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Bondoc_244_g_002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Bondoc_244_g_003.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Bondoc_244_g_004.JPG

As you can see, in the last decades it had developed here and there some
rust on the cut face.
According to your wishes, we can re-polish it.
(We have let it now as it is, because we know that most pedigree-collectors
like their specimens to be as original as possible, also to keep the
accordance of the specimen's weight with the given weight on the label).


The second AMLer is a truly wonderful

ESTHERVILLE

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Estherville_111_g_005.JPG

We guess, that Estherville doesn't need any introduction anymore here on the
list,
as it is the third largest observed fall of the U.S.

Nevertheless it seems pretty difficult to find nowadays still entire
individuals, better than the also hard to get popular nuggets.
Here to your delight we have now a perfectly intact individual, which by all
means would be also without the old label a premium collection-piece for
your cabinet.
Note that it has not only the thinner rougher fusion crust, but also the fat
and bulgy one with bubbles from outgassing where the silicate constituents
had been molten.
 
111 grams it has
(and Nininger/Huss/AMM/AML-fans know, that Esthervilles with AML-Labels are
so much rarer than the Bondocs).

Enjoy!
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Estherville_111_g_001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Estherville_111_g_002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Estherville_111_g_003.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Estherville_111_g_004.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Estherville_111_g_005.JPG


Prices:
Bondoc 244g $1350
Estherville 111g$1387

Both together:   $2580


And for your patience, to have read the advertizing until that point, a
third goodie:

MURCHISON AT BELOW 100$/g

All said about Murchison.
The recent 5 years it got so sought after, that the standard price, even for
larger stones, has established at 150$/g
(and even 200-250$/g for minor amounts here and there and on ebay). Below
you won't get any anymore.

Here now a fragment, naked without crust and grinded on one side,
At $800 with a weight of 8.13grams - which is 98.4$/g.

The label on the back is looking familiar, but we didn't get it, from whom
it could be.
Maybe you can identify it?  The font is outdated today, print looks like to
stem from the time, when the printers still had needles.
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Murchison_8_13_g_004.JPG

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Murchison_8_13_g_001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Murchison_8_13_g_003.JPG


Now time to let the games begin!

The Meteorite House
Hamburg - Munich
A.Gren
M.Kurschat
M.Altmann


P.S. Some 

Re: [meteorite-list] Guesstimate on number of meteorite collectors.

2013-05-14 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Don,

let me share, what I learned (after a couple of years as a fulltime dealer).

To answer your questions:

Number of serious collectors (until they will have repaired the broken
cable under the Atlantic, never got such a poor echo on unbeatable offers..)

is world-wide 12 (twelve).

Number of universities/museums interested in meteorites is: 32.

Number of wannabee and pros as offerer of meteorites is: 237.

I just don't see how anyone can make a full time living Selling meteorites

Be a nerd. Don't expect fulfillment in life.
Nininger never was happy.

become millionaires
Don, learn: regarding meteorites you can be more successful than ANSMET,
PRIC and NASA together - the owner of the pedicure shop on the other side of
your road will always have a better life than you.


That irks me to no end!

Then I tell you: wrong business.
To the South of my town, there is a lake.
It has the highest real estate prices of all Germany.
There is a man, who purchased a villa and a land at 50 millions of $.
You know, he didn't find the Moon rock, mankind never had before, he didn't
managed to bring up that Martian rock, all the billion-$ missions looked on
the red planet for, he never got his hands on all Chelyabinskis found. He
made his fortune with vacuum-devices, giving males the illusion, that for a
short time, their sexual organs seemed to be bigger than they believed, they
could be.

And forget about ebay.
Hardly you can find there an ambitious specimen offered, and even more
seldomly such sold.

And repair the internet-cable under the Atlantic Ocean.
Just mailed to 20 US-collectors with unbeatable offers, got 1 response. 
Hence must be broke or so. Cause so impolite, they never were, not to
answer.

with such a bad global economy
Economy in Germany, second largest pool of collectors, for instance is
currently excellent. Though they tend to buy only the most common of the
common mainstream.

Be brave, Don, wait another 10 years and meteorite collecting will return,
just like it should be and was once before!

Martin



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Don
Merchant
Gesendet: Dienstag, 14. Mai 2013 21:29
An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Cc: Don Merchant
Betreff: [meteorite-list] Guesstimate on number of meteorite collectors.

Hi List. Some thoughts and questions to ponder. To me it seems like there is
an endless number of Meteorite Dealers, Wannabee Meteorite Dealers, Part
Time Sellers, Full time Sellers, One hit wonder Sellers, Mix of meteorite
and Jewelry Sellers etc. All one has to do is just go on eBay to get a
partial idea of this fiasco, let alone the many websites you come across
when searching blindly on the internet involving meteorites. It seems
everyone including my great grandmother is selling meteorites! I also know
that meteorite collecting is confined to a very small group/percentage of
people world wide as compared to other hobbies. Does anyone have any idea of
how many hard core Collectors there are in the world at one time? I am not
talking about the 1 time Buyer of a meteorite either. I see some Dealers
selling the same material every week for years! I mean it sells, but to
who!! The same type specimen every single week for years, I mean every
Collector on Earth should have a piece of it by now, and yet someone buys
another piece the following week! What are Collectors doing, double and
tripling up on the specimens! I don't get it. AnywaysI just don't see
how anyone can make a full time living Selling meteorites with such
completion out there these days and the fraud that takes place. My pet
peeves are those that sell without providing at least an ID Card or some
kind of provenance...at least something to back the specimen. That irks me
to no end! I have solved that issue long, long ago ...I don't buy from you,
period. How the heck can I resell that specimen without some form of
legitimacy. So for those of you who still continue to sell without ID Cards
or Provenance, lets get your crap in order. Another thing I noticed is that
(especially) on eBay that week after week after week specimens like Lunars,
Martians, or historical specimens (well known and famous specimens) that
which have been sold or known for years, still get high prices for the
auction. You mean that after all these years there are still Collectors that
do not have a piece of say NWA 482 or DaG 476! Once it is put up on eBay
somebody buys it. Where on Earth do these people work that they continue to
buy and buy and buy meteorites! I guess I just don't understand who is
always buying these specimens with such a bad global economy and a limited
elite group of Collectors. Where the heck do you get your money from!  Maybe
inheritance? Lottery Money? Can't be from hard earned money! Just sounding
off is all to those who want to listen/read. I mean some people go to these
shows like Ensisheim or Tucson 

Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes

2013-05-07 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Jim, Adam, Jason, Sires..

Danger Mouse can't shut his mouth, whenever he hears over the pond the
whining about taxes.

Maybe you could take the following not as derision, but as a consolation to
calm your worries,
when I now demonstrate, how the taxdues situation is for the various German
meteorite dealers,
here in Europe, the birthland of meteorites and meteorite collecting.
Hence such dealers, who you all esteem since many years for their
assortments, offers and finally their prices.
People like the Karls, Andi Gren, Siggi Haberer, Mirko Graul to mention a
few only, or if you use ebay, Stephan Decker, Tim Gueldenpfennig and so on..

(And can't remain silent, as I'm fighting now for several months with the
German offices, to get my pre-payments of taxesdues back, for the last
year, where due to a disease I nearly wasn't able to work, so that currently
I have to occupy myself with that matter).

First of all, Adam,
I noticed, watchin my niecesnephew, that the U.S.-educational system
attaches importance to impart patriotism.
(To a much higher extend as it would be possible in Germland with its evil
history).

Adam, isn't paying taxes an act of patriotism?


Now, join with me a ride through the tunnel of horror
and learn, what your colleagues from the old world, and they aren't all
communists, are paying as a matter of course from their revenues - and note,
that it is still possible for them to work in that profession,
hence most probably the U.S.-sellers will be able to do so too.

Germany:

Sales tax. 
Yep, we dealers have to collect sales taxes for the state for all sales
within the European Union.
If a European collector purchases a stone from the U.S.-seller, he has to
pay that tax directly to the state.
Hence don't be worried, at least with your overseas sales nothing will
change, as your clients there already pay your price + their domestic sale
tax.
In Germany the sales tax on meteorites as an exception of a mineral
collectible is 7% of the price+shipping.
If you have bad luck and you meet an officer, who is not of the opinion,
that your meteorite sample is an unique mineral collectible, you pay the
general sales tax rate of 19%. (and then you can fight 2 years forth and
back, until you'll get back your 12% excess. Sounds strange, but it's due to
us having, what a fun, approx. 70,000 individual tax regulations, where you
have to know such funny things, that cauliflower is in the opinion of the
Republic no vegetable, but broccoli is).
Small business is exempt from sales taxes.
And is defined as a business which generates less than 23,000$ turnover
(turnover and not profit) per year.
The sales tax is shared between the Republic and the federal states.

Obama-Care:
Comes already now into play. Cause you have to pay a percentage from you
brut profit, hence still before deducting all the taxes. The compulsory
health and long term care insurance costs a little more than 15% of your
brut profit.
But minimum for the self-employed even if he does earn almost nothing:
5,700$ per year.
(And if you want to have the same benefits like employees, you have to pay
more).

Business Tax:
We have to pay of course too, as soon as we have a turnover per year larger
than 32,000$.
It is a local tax, the height is appointed by the city/commune and varies
therefore strongly.
Highest rates you pay in such cities like Munich, where everyone wants to
live. In ugly towns like Berlin it's much cheaper, half of it. In my case a
few thousands per annum.

Church Tax:
A specialty in Germany, a relic from the secularization 200 years ago. If
you're a member of the catholic or protestant church, the state collects
from you for the clergy taxes. It's a federal tax, difficult to calculate, a
couple of hundreds per year.


Retirement arrangements.
If you don't want to work as a meteorite dealer as long as a Nininger did
and until you peg out,
you have to pay an annuity insurance. Currently that is still voluntary,
though government has already plans, to make it mandatory for self-employeds
with a minimum due of around 9,000 - 12,500$ per annum.


Solidarity tax
From that, what still remains, we are charged with that special tax of 5.5%.
Some 20 years ago the federal german republic purchased the german
democratic republic in the East.
After the western government had sold there everything at ballpark prices,
which socialism hadn't destroyed yet,
they found out that the new country was vast and empty and that one had to
rebuilt it, since then we pay that tax
and now the infrastructure and the villages in the East look much better
than in my Bavaria.

Income tax:
Finally, finally we are allowed to pay our income tax!
If the sum of all your incomes of all the sources you have exceeds 11,000$
per year, you have to pay income tax.
Depending of the height of your income the rate starts at 14% and ends at
45% (in autumn is election afterwards 51% are possible).

For meteorite collectors there exist no concept of sales of collecting
stuff.

[meteorite-list] House-AD: A Wonderful Specimen for The Eyes and The Hearts !

2013-04-30 Thread Martin Altmann
Good Morning everybody.


The Meteorite House loves such ads, where it hasn't to write lengthy
explanations:

http://kuerzer.de/Ganplanet1

The Dark Planet is floating through the iron spaces.

Surrounded, as we see here better, by his satellites:

http://kuerzer.de/Ganplanet2


What it is?
A giant troilite in a Gan Gan.

Gan Gan is an Argentine iron of 1984, always flying a little below the radar
since, because it's not superrare and there was almost always here and there
a slice to be found, thus it is of modest availability, congruently with its
for an iron modest tkw of 83kg and that at a comparably very modest price.
A Fine octahedrite it is of a very regular pattern from the IVA-group.
Known also to be not complicated regarding rust-tendencies.

Very comfort it is this time to explain, why the Gan-Gan-Style of the
Meteorite House is so exceptionally gifted,
not only that you're as always invited to compare that very specimen with
the specimens currently offered at our colleagues,
but just take a look to the various slices of the fellow collectors, given
in the EoM and to be quickly found in the Bulletin Database entry:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=10852

See, all the slices there are either free of troilite, or do own only a few
very tiny droplets.
(If we were pushy, we would write: don't hesitate too long, not that one of
these collectors will upgrade his/her Gan-Gan-specimen with our
planet-slice).

This partial slice has on two adjacent edges the natural silhouette and
rind.
It is pre-prohibition, has a perfect preparation as always
and weighs 220grams.


Now it's up to you to decide, whether our slice can be categorized as
High-End
and whether we are too audacious, if we aim with this gorgeous specimen for
the price, which every regular dealer asks on his page for normal Gan
Gans,
which is:4$/g.


Enjoy!

The Meteorite House Crew

A.Gren
M.Kurschat
M.Altmann



P.S. Having experienced, that currently the very most collectors are either
somewhat exhausted from having acquired Chelyabinsk very early,
or still keeping their funds, planning to purchase a Chelyabinsk, when it
will have gotten even more cheap - we can arrange instalments, if necessary.










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[meteorite-list] House-AD: Gan Gan is gan, eh: gone (Consolidation iron?)

2013-04-30 Thread Martin Altmann
Hello again, short update:

Don't be sad - the early bird ate already the Gan Gan.
Many thanks!

Perhaps, to console you, we should remind you on a no less excellent iron
specimen in the same price category, which has missed your attention, cause
it was covered by Ukrainian cosmic debris.

The Whitecourt, 
where one could state similar things like about the Gan Gan,
because wandering around in the EoM/Bulletin Database and on the sales
sites, one hardly finds a similar fine specimen.

Difference to Gan Gan is, that we priced it under-average.

Here it was:

With frayed and folded edges plus also some tear-lines left.
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Whitecourt_131_43_g_02.JPG

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Whitecourt_131_43_g_01.JPG

other side is a smooth bulge:
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Whitecourt_131_43_g_05.JPG

131.43g

6.5$/g instead of the 9$-standard.

Premium-Piece, isn't it?

Such a shrapnel,
As Sikhote you would say: Ugly.
As Gebel Kamil:  well, o.k.
But as Whitecourt:   WOW, stunner !!!  

Enjoy it too!
Meteorite House Crew 


PS: Most recent abstract about:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2013/pdf/2316.pdf




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Re: [meteorite-list] Glenn Huss

2013-04-19 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Peter,

the Huss-numbers starts for the different Wellmen as follows:

Wellman (a)  H12.xx

Wellman (b)  H19.xx

Wellman (c)  H39.xx

Wellman (d)  H52.xx

Wellman (e)  H277.xx


Best!
Martin

(PS:  You have an email with another concern from me in your inbox)

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Peter
Davidson
Gesendet: Freitag, 19. April 2013 11:36
An: Meteorite List (meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com)
Betreff: [meteorite-list] Glenn Huss

Hello Friends

I wonder if anyone on the list can help me with  some information about the
famous collector Glenn Huss. I have been working on the collection recently
and came across a specimen which we have now discovered is linked to the
collection of Glenn Huss by dint of having a Huss Catalogue Number on the
specimen . It is a specimen of the Wellman meteorite and was purchase from
the mineral dealer David New of Montana in 1977 as part of a larger
consignment which also included two other meteorites (Wiluna and Allende) as
well as several mineral specimens. The Catalogue of Meteorites (CoM) lists
five Wellman entries (a,b,c,d and e) I was wondering which one ours could
fit into. It is clearly an H type chondrite but whether it is H4 or H5 I
can't really tell. I wondered if the catalogue of the Huss collection exists
somewhere and wondered if I could match up the Huss number on our specimen
with the register number in the catalogue. I am also keen to add any
additional information into our own database here. All replies will be
gratefully received.

PS Notice I have resisted talking about the death of Margaret Thatcher
(oops!)

Cheers

Peter Davidson
Curator of Minerals

National Museums Collection Centre
242 West Granton Road
Edinburgh
EH5 1JA
00 44 131 247 4283
p.david...@nms.ac.uk


Vikings! Discover their untold story in a new exhibition of treasures.
National Museum of Scotland, 18 January  12 May. Book now
www.nms.ac.uk/vikings 

National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This
communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the
addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the
author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland.
This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of
Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that
may be caused to your systems or data by this message.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!

2013-04-19 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Count,

yep you're right, I'm no diplomat.
(And - viziers and consuls - here in Germany with its baleful history, we have 
a different paradigm about states servants than in the hegemonic proud 
Ex-Ottoman Empire,  German consuls aren't only servants of the state, but also 
servants of the people).

Anyway, the arrests of tourists having picked up a stone from the beach are 
always also a part of a political game.

Partially because of the permanent refusal of the EU to start negotiations with 
Turkey for its admittance to the EU,
and partially because of Turkey's aggressive policy to claim back antiquities 
and cultural heritage from other governments.

From the Rep. of Germany for instance, they want to have back that stuff:
http://www.geo.de/reisen/community/bild/regular/220723/Pergamon-Altar.jpg


(Btw. one important reason for not declaring meteorites to be cultural 
heritage.
That would bring the big historic institutional collections in hard troubles).

Best!
Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Count Deiro [mailto:countde...@earthlink.net] 
Gesendet: Freitag, 19. April 2013 04:55
An: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!

Hallo Martin,

I said meteorite to him and the answer was no. I don't want to call attention 
to myself by asking for a further clarification. My feeling is that he would 
take offense at my having the impudence (Frechheit) to quote his own laws to 
him.

Alles bestes

Guido



-Original Message-
From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
Sent: Apr 18, 2013 12:14 PM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!

Hi Count,

maybe you could ask the consul again, to give you the respective law?

Decisive is the Law No. 2863 of July 21, 1983 on Conservation of 
Cultural and Natural Property (as last amended by Law No. 5835 of 
February 4, 2009 and Law No. 5917 of June 25, 2009)

Here it is in English version:
http://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text.jsp?file_id=249359

It definitely has no meteorites in the catalogue-articles, where all kind of 
object-categories are explicitly named.

Neither cover the definitions of cultural property nor natural 
property, given in Chapter 1, Art. 3a) 1)2) Meteorites in general, but would 
need an interpretation by a court.
E.g. a find of H5 could perhaps not be regarded unique (nor being of beauty, 
if it's W3, hehe). 

And even if covered, if purchased from a dealer with the right license, they 
could be exported like antiquities in such cases too.

On the other side, rocks are per se not o.k. see the definition of natural 
property.


Best,
Martin


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com 
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von 
Count Deiro
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. April 2013 20:31
An: Anne Black; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!

Dear Anne,

In reading the story, the two suspected artifacts are described in the body of 
the article. 

I have contacted the Turkish Cultural and Economic Affairs office in Los 
Angeles, California and His Excellency, Aydın Topcu, Consul General for 
Turkey, informs me that the collection of meteorites for removal from Turkey 
is forbidden under law and that there is no permit process.

So rocks ok...other things not.

Cordially,

Count Deiro
IMCA 3536

-Original Message-
From: Anne Black impact...@aol.com
Sent: Apr 18, 2013 11:09 AM
To: countde...@earthlink.net, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!

Sorry, but this does not add up.
I have been to Turkey twice, beautiful country, very friendly people. 
I have bought minerals, some multi-colored marbles, picked up some 
blue serpentine on the side of the road, and had no problem at all 
bringing them back.
I also visited many archaeological sites, but I certainly would never 
pick up anything there.

I wonder what his stones look like!


Anne M. Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
impact...@aol.com


-Original Message-
From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net
To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 10:48 am
Subject: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!


Hello Listees,

Take a look at how Turkey is handling rock collectors. And this one 
a tourist!


http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/22013551/us-tourist-faces-jail-in-turkey-
f or-collecting-beach-stones#axzz2QpOTN1Sq

It will never be he same.

Count Deiro
IMCA 3536  MetSoc
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Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!

2013-04-18 Thread Martin Altmann
Sorry,

(apart from this adding up at least as much as the meteorite laws Anne
defends),
please don't do it like Anne did.

Turkey is known for more than ten years to have made series of arrests for
the same reasons. Turkey is very popular in Europe for beach holidays and
family vacations (cause cheaper and better service than e.g. Greece).
Never pick up stones from the beach as souvenirs!

The most uproar here in Germany was, when a father was arrested for his
9-years-old sun having picked up an amorphous stone of marble at the beach.
(Where later an expert commission decided (I doubt, they could have proved
it), that it could stem from a base of an antique statue).

Such cases happen a dozen times per year, usually they are solved for
foreign tourists with an imprisonment on remand of up to half a year in a
Turkish jail and a fine of ca. 10,000$.
(Same applies to accidentally picked up fossils).

Martin


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Anne
Black
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. April 2013 20:09
An: countde...@earthlink.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!

Sorry, but this does not add up.
I have been to Turkey twice, beautiful country, very friendly people. I have
bought minerals, some multi-colored marbles, picked up some blue serpentine
on the side of the road, and had no problem at all bringing them back.
I also visited many archaeological sites, but I certainly would never pick
up anything there.

I wonder what his stones look like!


Anne M. Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
impact...@aol.com


-Original Message-
From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net
To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 10:48 am
Subject: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!


Hello Listees,

Take a look at how Turkey is handling rock collectors. And this one a
tourist!


http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/22013551/us-tourist-faces-jail-in-turkey-for-co
llecting-beach-stones#axzz2QpOTN1Sq

It will never be he same.

Count Deiro
IMCA 3536  MetSoc
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Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!

2013-04-18 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Count,

maybe you could ask the consul again, to give you the respective law?

Decisive is the Law No. 2863 of July 21, 1983 on Conservation of Cultural and 
Natural Property (as last amended by Law No. 5835 of February 4, 2009 and Law 
No. 5917 of June 25, 2009)

Here it is in English version:
http://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text.jsp?file_id=249359

It definitely has no meteorites in the catalogue-articles, where all kind of 
object-categories are explicitly named.

Neither cover the definitions of cultural property nor natural property, 
given in Chapter 1, Art. 3a) 1)2)
Meteorites in general, but would need an interpretation by a court.
E.g. a find of H5 could perhaps not be regarded unique (nor being of beauty, 
if it's W3, hehe). 

And even if covered, if purchased from a dealer with the right license, they 
could be exported like antiquities in such cases too.

On the other side, rocks are per se not o.k. see the definition of natural 
property.


Best,
Martin


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com 
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Count Deiro
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. April 2013 20:31
An: Anne Black; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!

Dear Anne,

In reading the story, the two suspected artifacts are described in the body of 
the article. 

I have contacted the Turkish Cultural and Economic Affairs office in Los 
Angeles, California and His Excellency, Aydın Topcu, Consul General for Turkey, 
informs me that the collection of meteorites for removal from Turkey is 
forbidden under law and that there is no permit process.

So rocks ok...other things not.

Cordially,

Count Deiro
IMCA 3536

-Original Message-
From: Anne Black impact...@aol.com
Sent: Apr 18, 2013 11:09 AM
To: countde...@earthlink.net, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!

Sorry, but this does not add up.
I have been to Turkey twice, beautiful country, very friendly people. I 
have bought minerals, some multi-colored marbles, picked up some blue 
serpentine on the side of the road, and had no problem at all bringing 
them back.
I also visited many archaeological sites, but I certainly would never 
pick up anything there.

I wonder what his stones look like!


Anne M. Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
impact...@aol.com


-Original Message-
From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net
To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 10:48 am
Subject: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!


Hello Listees,

Take a look at how Turkey is handling rock collectors. And this one a 
tourist!


http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/22013551/us-tourist-faces-jail-in-turkey-f
or-collecting-beach-stones#axzz2QpOTN1Sq

It will never be he same.

Count Deiro
IMCA 3536  MetSoc
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[meteorite-list] House-AD: In Honor of Vesta - Dreampiece (only AHOW-an) and Dreambits

2013-04-08 Thread Martin Altmann
Dear collectors,

the Meteorite House crew is of the opinion, that in all that
Chelyabinsk-hustle it would be unfair to neglect one of our all favorite
luminary;
Goddess Vesta - now where the Dawn spaceprobe said farewell to her (what a
picture!):
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/685735main_pia15678-43_full.jpg

Dawn, which had made a pass to her in such an unbeseeming manner,
that the wrinkles of the Lady became visible, her pockmarks and the layers
of powder she applied to cover them - and that we got the final missing
evidence, that some of the rocks in our drawers and cabinets are truly of
Vesta's belongings.

Therefore we compiled a little piece, wherein specimens for really everyone
can be found, from the budget collector, who nevertheless doesn't want cut
back in quality
to the toppest notch, who has severe problems to find still something
substantially new for his/her collection.
Four movements we have to play,
but we try to keep it short this time, for not taxing your attention span 
(which is getting shorter and shorter in the FB-ages).

1st) NWA 6475 
Cuuutest pearls and real gems, crusted and fresh individuals of a polymict
eucrite. (All love them. And don't worry, also the highrollers amassing
stones of museums sizes - quite all of them have a feeble for such
miniatures!
And will set 6475 with caution between their Mini-Camel Dongas and
Bilangas).

Btw. also internally NWA 6475 has all, a fine polymict EUC needs, even
larger carbonaceous inclusions, here an example:
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_end_1_59_g_01.JPG

It's our second lot, the first one went so quickly, that nothing was left to
advertize here, sorry. Same price.

Fresh Individuals (the numbers painted on them are Buhl-numbers from the
Meteorite Recon Coll.):

A)  1.24g   $40
A little bit broken, but in the crack by chance you find a large
eucrite-nest.
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_24_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_24_g_02.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_24_g_03.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_24_g_04.JPG

B)  1.77g   $57
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_77_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_77_g_02.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_77_g_03.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_77_g_04.JPG

C)  1.83g   $59
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_83_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_83_g_02.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_83_g_03.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_83_g_04.JPG

D)  1.94g   $63
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_94_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_94_g_02.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_94_g_03.JPG

E)  3.31g   $107
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_3_31_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_3_31_g_02.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_3_31_g_03.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_3_31_g_04.JPG


2nd) Exclusive reference specimens for numbers fetishists.

There we'd have to offer as specialty three different eucrites of newer and
newest NWA-entries. Exclusive they are inasmuch as these numbers are not
available else than through these few references pieces, while the rest of
the masses remained in the private collection of the purchasers + at the
classifying institutes.
Hence stuff and in sizes, which would most probably disproportionally highly
paid,
if thrown into ebay. 
However, they are pretty fresh!

F) NWA 6730

Bulletin entry:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=54599

A monomict one (monomict eucrites are rarer than polymict ones).
Well fresh, note the fusion crust on the edge.
Displays two lithologies, one is leopardialic Millbillillie-style, the other
coarser (to the left, down).

Two grinded slices in a box:
1.97g + 1.21g = 3.18g   $59

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA6730_3_18_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA6730_3_18_g_02.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA6730_3_18_g_03.JPG


G) NWA 7705
A polymict eucrite and a true beauty.
Nice extra - the finder is given in the Bulletin:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=57152

Elegant - we like especially the faint whitish cumuli clouds of the matrix,
giving the view depth and the little black clasts and fragments like a flock
of birds playing high in the air.
It's only weakly shocked.

It's even an idea fresher than the first one, as one can detect by means of
the fusion crust.

Two grinded reference slices
3.81g + 1.43g = 5.24g $124

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7705_5_24_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7705_5_24_g_02.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7705_5_24_g_03.JPG


H) NWA 7706

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=57153

Remarkably stronger shocked is that new polymict eucrite.
Had a typical high-gloss-crust,
but unfortunately and despite its 

[meteorite-list] House-AD: The Meteorite House sells World's Most Beautiful Iron Meteorite

2013-03-27 Thread Martin Altmann
Hello World,

in its unbearable modesty The Meteorite House pushes on the Olympus its throne 
closer to Hephaestus'
in giving you today the great privilege to have access to the last fullslices 
of the fractal iron
NWA 7335.

NWA 7335 IS the most beautiful and most spectacular iron among the 1074 iron 
meteorites, the Bulletin lists.
Full stop.


Happy those, who own already their slice and will freely share with you their 
amazement arising,
whenever they take a look on their specimen, cause that, what they observe, is 
truly unbelievable!:

The kamacite, forming the Widmanstätter pattern has not the usual shape of 
straight bars and bands,
but you'll find it in form of twisted bundles, almost plaited like pigtails!! !!
The baffled geometrician will find to his wondrousness intersection angles of 
60° and even 70°!
The size of the pigtail pattern is about that of a medium octahedrite,
nevertheless - it's getting even better:
The plessite fields between the pattern, they aren't empty,
but full of myriads of tiny spindles, which in some fields repeat the 
Widmanstaetter pattern on a small, down to microscopic scale, while in other 
fields they form own geometrical patterns!!
Absolutely unique and aesthetically a true bomb.
Mysterious and enigmatic must be its genesis.

Enjoy:

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_0_05.JPG

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_0_01.JPG

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_0_02.JPG

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_0_03.JPG

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_0_04.JPG


Find the classification here,
of course the type is unique too:  An ungrouped, plessitic Octahedrite.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=55763


It is evident and easy to foresee, that without an NWA 7335 any serious iron 
meteorite collection will remain incomplete forever.
That iron represents on the iron meteorite sector the quintessence of more than 
30 years of cold and hot desert hunting
and you'll agree that it is apt, to crown and to complete a long and rich life 
of an iron meteorite specialist.
(No worries, also the next 30 years we will be there for you).

In those times of Mercurian prices, of pecuniary valuations of watery Martians, 
of groundshaking LL5s or Indian-Katolic H5s crazinesses, you'll see us to be 
much too old-fashioned in filling out the price tags. Our failure shall be your 
luck.

Hereso are the last fullslices. More material isn't left from the 4.9kg that 
meteorite originally had.
(And one of the slices we need still for the most prominent iron pope, so 
better give us also an alternative choice).

All slices are ennobled on one side by the incredibly contrast-rich Meteorite 
House Finish (MHF),
the other side is rough from the saw (ultrahard it is, that iron).
Only the smallest slice has MHF on both sides.

 
29.05g  (both sides MHF prepared) 726$ 562€
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_29_05_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_29_05_g_02.JPG


147g1896$ 1470€
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_147_g_01.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_147_g_02.JPG


177g2283$1770€
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_177_g_01.JPG


212g2734$2120€  
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_212_g_01.JPG



NWA 7335! -
Who, that hath no eyes to see, no heart to feel, shall never be called a 
serious collector again!

And whoever dares to call this iron nice, won't get any of it.


Now good luck to all!
Obeisances  homages, also those of North Korean style, we'll accept this time 
only publically here on the list,
for people not erroneously thinking, that NWA 7335 would be only an insiders' 
tip
and because of the wave of influenza raging in Germany, the Meteorite House is 
currently not able,
to inflate NWA 7335 to that living legend, it already is and ever will be.

Atchoo!


The Meteorite House
Hamburg - Munich
M.Kurschat
A.Gren
M.Altmann
E.V.

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Re: [meteorite-list] Chelyabinsk at White House today

2013-03-26 Thread Martin Altmann
They are mentioned in the bible:

Acts 19,35: 
(Paul in Ephesus)

And when the town clerk had quieted the crowd, he said, “Men of Ephesus, who
is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper
of the great Artemis, and of the sacred stone that fell from the sky?


Amen
Martin


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Michael
Farmer


Yeah, sort of like congress is not a fan of science and education.
Half of them don't believe in meteorites because it doesn't mention them in
the bible.
Michael Farmer

Sent from my iPhone

O 


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Re: [meteorite-list] A Bunch of Irregular Stones I Found (+How I Think They May Have Originated)

2013-03-23 Thread Martin Altmann
Hmmm Peter,

If you wanted to help, you might have suggested why a folded portion of an
outer layer of stone, revealing an inner layer of a different color, is
common on non-meteorites, such as slag,

O.k. I help you. But vice versa.

1. Meteorites don't have layers.
For layers you need in 1st instance: gravitation.
Meteorites stem from too small bodies, that those would have sufficient
gravitation, that layers can settle.


This has a surface with a bubbly appearance

2. Meteorites don't have bubbles.

So you found and described already by yourself the two strongest and most
absolute criteria for exclusion that an object could be a meteorite.

3. Freud was a lousy geologist.

Best!
Martin 

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Peter
Richards
Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2013 02:17
An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] A Bunch of Irregular Stones I Found (+How I
Think They May Have Originated)

Gary D. Matson said:
In this particular case, your pictures are not at fault. They show enough
that apparently a number of experienced members here are willing to offer
strong opinions (even if not always quantifying
it) that what you have is not meteoritic. [If I were to put a number on my
own certainty, having just looked at your pictures for the first time, I'd
feel safe in pegging it at the 4-sigma level (99.994%)].:
-Gary, I said qualify, not quantify, in case you didn't notice that. It
is a suggestion. It's true that sometimes the risk of failing to qualify an
argument is negligible, or nil, and, in those cases qualifying them may
seem absurd. However, in all likelihood isn't that difficult to write,
even twice, and I think it would be a step in the right direction, in all
scientific pursuits, my own included, if, everyone whether or not a
designated expert, or person of great experience, were more cautious with
their language. The saying goes pride comes before the fall, and you can
realize that easily, even if you haven't in fact been proven wrong, when you
make a realization that you are still able to question your own idea. Maybe
it is taken for granted that these are all theories, shared herein. If
that's the case, what's the harm in re-stating the fact? I think everyone
may be better off, even when one is rather sure, if the risk is not taken,
but to each his own, regarding that.

Graham Ensor said:
why ask one of most experienced group of meteorite enthusiasts and experts
(all of which are passionate about helping others to search for new finds
and material) for an opinion based on a visual analysis/photos of your
samples if you are certain for yourself and are willing to dismiss a
unanimous verdict...if you are that certain they are meteorites then you
should submit samples to an experienced university for scientific analysis

-Graham, I shared the material in order to facilitate some discussion about
the possibility that meteorites are depicted therein. I am not completely
certain for myself, and, in this case, haven't made the mistake of
directly alleging that I am so. I was hoping for a more scientifically
accurate conversation, as I stated. Perhaps if, for example, you cared to
state explicitly that it was your opinion, you would encourage yourself to
verbalize those internal processes which led to your conclusion, which,
might put off a final consensus, or unanimous verdict as you've put it,
and call for more effort in ascertaining the truth, but with the advantage
of significantly reduced chances of a reaching a false positive stance.
For example, you might have responded to my written material as well, or
anything specifically. If you wanted to help, you might have suggested why a
folded portion of an outer layer of stone, revealing an inner layer of a
different color, is common on non-meteorites, such as slag, or encouraged
me to photographically document that feature more attentively by opining
that no such fold was clearly visible. After all, as per Doug Schmitt, (I
infer) we could, possibly, be responsible for extinction of life on this
planet due to a meteorite strike, or response to a meteorite-strike in the
form of nuclear warfare, if we fail to appropriately qualify our assertions.
Regarding the idea that I should submit samples to a university for
analysis: it is a consideration, but if anyone had an educated and fully
convincing opinion to offer here, maybe I would have been dissuaded from
pursuing that, but again, I haven't ascertained that what I've seen here has
been especially constructive, so I'll have to 'play it by ear.' Herer is a
link to a set better documenting what apparently is a surface that's been
peeled back, and which folded:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67498324@N08/8580635967/in/set-7215763306587489
0/
Peter Richards
P.S. Thank you anyone who can stand me having to hone my photography skills
on the fly for this.

[meteorite-list] Happy Birthday Dirk Ross!

2013-03-21 Thread Martin Altmann
Happy Birthday

to our bolide-reporter N°1, Dirk Ross, Tokyo!


Dirk himself...
http://kuerzer.de/DaDirk

...and in his office
http://kuerzer.de/DaDirkhisoffice


Best!
Martin

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Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils inFireballFragments

2013-03-13 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Alan,

If I do remember correctly, stones falling from space was blasphemous

...no, don't believe in movies.
Don't forget, that throughout the whole Middle Age's until into the 1500s in
Europe the collector, keeper, translator, sponsor, communicator and
instructor was the clergy.
(and also remember, how many famous astronomer were also after the
Enlightenment churchmen).
Remember that even the stone of Ensisheim was publically displayed in the
church.
(Or the very precise fall observation and description of the today lost
stones of Schaeftlarn by the Premonstratensians in 1722).

On contrary, but that plays a role more in the folk religion (da cleric
scientists were more sober), falling stones and fiery rains belonged to the
inventory of the bible. (plagues of Egypt, book of relevation, Sodom 
Gomorrah ect.pp).

And one can observe a shift in the interpretation of natural phenomena from
the 1500 to the 1600.
Mainly in the popular prints.
Quite all natural phenomena out-of-band, like yellow and red rains, rains of
frogs, rats, fishes; earthquakes, comets, sun-dogs, halos, aurorae, sudden
mass-occurrences of insects and so on were there in the 1500 still regarded
as a miracles, created and sent by god as a warning,
while then in the 1600 already, most of these phenomena weren't regarded as
miracles anylonger, but natural scientific explained and only the
circumstance that they happened was religiously interpreted.

As far as the meteorites in the scientific world were concerned,
there wasn't so much questioned that they fall, but rather the question was,
whether they are a product of Earth or Aristotelian of the atmosphere (like
it was with the comets, first parallax was taken by Tycho)
and the sometimes ridiculed thing was later the suggestion by Chladni (for
Doug, Jefferson), that they origin in space.

Best!
Martin 

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn
Alan
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. März 2013 02:45
An: Joshua Tree Earth  Space Museum; Meteorite Central;
countde...@earthlink.net; meteoritem...@gmail.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils
inFireballFragments

I would say Mc kays theory is more plausible than Wickramasing. Mckay does
make some good points, but in science, its about proof, and I think for the
next 50 years or longer, science will keep it hush hush and on the lid if
there is really life on Mars, because once that is out in the open, there
goes religion, well some, that are based around the all mighty being. But
at any rate, I do enjoys Mckays theory, his makes since, but other scientist
have argued that the fossil remains can be synthesized in the lab. Well
anything can be synthesized in the lab today :). However, without these
crazy ideas about life in meteorites, or fossils in Martian stones, where
would we be with science in meteoritics. If I do remember correctly, stones
falling from space was blasphemous, you would be shunned in the science
world around the 1700's for even trying to suggest that. It all comes down
to timing, technology and the meteorite that has life :)

Shawn Alan
IMCA 1633
ebay store
http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633ny/m.html
http://meteoritefalls.com/



From: Joshua Tree Earth  Space Museum dori...@embarqmail.com
To: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net; Galactic Stone  Ironworks
meteoritem...@gmail.com
Cc: Mike Groetz mpg4...@gmail.com; Meteorite List
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils
inFireballFragments

Really!? I didn't think anybody believed McKay's thoroughly debunked theory
any more.

http://www.space.com/18414-mars-meteorite-life-arctic-rocks-qanda.html

Phil Whitmer

- Original Message -
From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net
To: Joshua Tree Earth  Space Museum dori...@embarqmail.com; Galactic
Stone  Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com
Cc: Mike Groetz mpg4...@gmail.com; Meteorite List 
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils
inFireballFragments


 Hi Phil,

 I haven't read Wickramasinge. I do hold stock in panspermic theory. In 
 particular, the findings of water, amino acids, etc. in the meteorites 
 I mentioned. The NASA/JPL paper New Evidence of Life Forms in Martian 
 Meteorites descibing and illustrating what seven of their best have 
 concluded are life forms in Nakhla and AH84001 was particularly 
 convincing to me.

 That SUV sized lab that we spent a few hundred million to put on Mars, 
 was sent there for the admitted purpose of solving our disagreement for
us.
 You may have watched and listened to the first report of Curiosity's 
 findings today streamed on the web. The Nasa team was about to pee 
 their pants having the opportunity to confirm that in 

Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils inFireballFragments

2013-03-13 Thread Martin Altmann
Conte! Brother in Faith,

shred much of civilization's core religious theologies..

 billions of our fellow homonids the fear that their belief systems are losing 
 the battle to scientific discovery

I don't know, why so many should believe, that the existence of 
extraterrestrial life would contradict their religions.
Are they theologians?

Let's, Count, (leaving the striking cases of Giordano Bruno and Galilei aside, 
cause they were rehabilitated (neither Columbus discovered the World being 
round) and anyway, also the enlightened laical liberal United States execute 
from time to time an innocent - you can't make an omelette without breaking 
eggs...)

Let's take our both catholic religion, cause it's easier, because it's 
centralistic organized and its theology and dogmae uniformly binding for the 
1.2 billion members - and I have no idea, how aliens would be regarded in the 
various schools of theology of our brethren, the other suns of Abraham, 
إبراهيم, אַבְרָהָם  
the Jewish, the Islamic, the other christian churches, who all basically 
believe in the same, the Buddhists, the Hindu...


I found, that Fra Consolmagno wrote a little booklet about that topic.
(I don't know how well versed he is in theology, but at least he's an 
astronomer and working on meteorites.)

Title is:
Intelligent Life in the Universe? Catholic Belief and the Search for 
Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506301.htm

Where he finds out, that catholic belief doesn't exclude the existence of 
extraterrestrial (and even intelligent) life.

I confess, I haven't bought that book,
because Fra Consolmagno thinks, that three quarters of us collectors and of the 
meteorite scientists have to burn in hell.
Quotation:

“The question of researching meteorites gathered illegally is essentially the 
same (though with lower stakes) than the question of doing biological research 
on stem cells.”


Heu, Frater!!  Lacum aperuit et effodit eum et incidet in foveam quam fecit   
;-)


Best!
Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com 
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Count Deiro
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. März 2013 14:09
An: Mark Ford; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils 
inFireballFragments

Hi List,

Mark has said ...I can't understand this fad for claims... that... we have 
found the building blocks of life 

There is no fad to reveal, however so unscientifically and hysterically by 
some in academia and the media, that we have discovered copious amounts of 
water on planets and moons. It is a scientific discovery that is found exciting 
to some, and disconcerting and threatening to others, as the evidence piles up 
that what was once a theory is now, because of Curiosity's right out of the 
box, successful, directed search, a scientific fact. 

Where once one could only postulate that the building blocks of life might be 
on Mars because of what we discovered in Nakhla, AH84001 and recent NWAs, we 
now we know is a fact. And that information may not be remarkable to an 
educated you, even though you were clueless at one point in your studies, but 
to the masses it is big medicine and conjures up in billions of our fellow 
homonids the fear that their belief systems are losing the battle to scientific 
discovery. And the attitude adjustment ain't going to be pretty..especialy with 
meteorite worshipping Islam. 

Incidentally, I think you've got the chicken before the egg on what came first 
on this orb, building blocks or life. And no, you can't say that every 
shred of evidence we have implies life as we know it started right here 
without defining what you consider life.

Be patient just a few more sols, my friend. We are about to witness discoveries 
that are going to shred much of civilization's core religious theologies and 
of a much lessor importance, resolve our difference in opinion. 

Namaste,

Count Deiro
IMCA 3536   



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Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in FireballFragments

2013-03-12 Thread Martin Altmann
Were you in Kerala?

Fred, NEVER drink from the Red Rain again!

(huh it's so spooky, I think inside my extraterrestrial life form (aka The
Cat) are living terrestrial organisms...)

Purple Rain, purple rain...
Martin


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
h...@meteorhall.com
Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. März 2013 18:44
An: Chris Peterson
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in
FireballFragments

I have a true blue FOSSIL METEORITE WITH ANCIENT FOSSIL LIFE FORMS!
Quick, call the newspapers with this wonderful headline! The meteorite is
4,786 grams and the Niton XRF on a freshly ground surface shows 11.02% Ni,
85.87% Fe, 0.89% Mn and 0.68% Cr, so it is indeed a meteorite. The fossil
life forms MUST be there, as this highly weathered, very FRACTURED stony has
much of the surface covered in a 1mm to 3mm mineral coating. It may have
been on this planet for 20,000 years or more. YES, FOSSIL LIFE FORMS EXIST
IN THIS ANCIENT METEORITE! reads the headline...too bad the fossil life
forms are from earth. But what the heck, it gets one's attention, right?
   So, all improbable, hyperbole meteorite/meteoroid stories are hereby
suspended!
  Fred H


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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

2013-03-08 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Jason,

don't make the old man tired.

Please don't compare my knowledge about meteorites to Jorge's behavior.

I can't compare you with Jorge, because I don't know Jorge at all.
The same way like most people don't know a Jason Utas at all.

And how many people will know a Jason Utas in hundred years?
Have you once thought about that?

And there is the big difference, between your stones and the stones who
got a number.
Still in hundred years, when nobody will know anymore, how and who the
talented Mr.Utas jr. was,
the collectors will have for their collection specimens the reference in the
Bulletin
and a reference mass in the once classifying institute.
And that makes a difference in the collectors', the scientific and the
monetary value.

While your stones will have gone to nirwana, just like they never existed,
cause they remained unanalyzed and unrecorded.

And cause you emphasize science always so strongly.
Very Practically, tell me - those, who made the destructive test with your
material and those who worked on the maskelynites of your other Martians,
what shall they do, if they want to publish papers about their work?

They can't refer to the samples as NWA 7034 or NWA 2975 because it's not
valid and incorrect.
Well and if they'd write in their articles, that their research objects are
said to be paired to 7034 and 2975, pers.comm. J.Utas, who visually compared
them with 7034 and with photos of 2075...
that would take a lot away from the weight of their results.

Anyway,
if you're so convinced of your meteoritic abilities,
then I don't know, why you feel such an overwhelming reluctance instead to
write the specimens are paired to NWA 7034, NWA 2975 in your advertising,
to use the verb to pair transitively and to state:

I paired the stones to NWA 7034, NWA 2975

That would be fair towards the buyers,
cause they can then decide, whether a Jason is a Jorge for them or whether a
Jason is just as good as a Dr.Irving regarding Martians.

However,
Imagine all would act like you.
Everybody being self-convinced to recognize a meteorite.
I take a corner of the curbstone and due to my 30+ years lasting occupation
with meteorites, I decided to be expert enough and decide it to be a
silica-rich ungrouped achondrite, similar to some photos I saw, or a
sedimentary limestone from Neptune, and btw. because it is my birthday date,
I bestow the curbstone with the name: NWA 21370 or I name it Heinz-Kevin.

Want to say,
in acting like you, why should anyone still let a meteorite classify?
The Meteoritical Bulletin and the standards of the Meteoritical Society 
meteoricists of meteorite classification
are then absolutely obsolete.

Thank you for the allowance to bring it to the IMCA.
Maybe tomorrow, have to work now.

Best,
Martin

PS: Bad try. That I quitted IMCA had more than one reason,
none of them you do know.

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jason
Utas
Gesendet: Freitag, 8. März 2013 02:00
An: Meteorite-list
Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fwd: sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

Martin,

Please don't compare my knowledge about meteorites to Jorge's behavior.

Eric nailed this one on the head.

I have a degree in geology insofar as I am currently taking structural
geology to complete the degree.  For all intents and purposes, I am as
qualified as anyone with a relevant degree, having taken mineralogy,
petrology, and field-mapping, the only required courses that involve mineral
and rock identification.  Most scientists who study meteorites, regardless
of their degree, would not be qualified to visually pair any meteorites in
the fashion that Adam described for his NWA 4880 specimens.

I suppose you could try to hold me to the arbitrary you don't have the
degree on your wall yet, but I'll have it in two months.  You're just
attacking me ad nauseam.  I don't get it.

So, what constitutes an expert in such things?  Perhaps someone with
fifteen years' experience with meteorites?  Someone who can look at an
auction like Jorge's, see the texture of the crust, and know that it's not
right?
Perhaps someone who has done that sort of thing several times?  I know there
are other folks around who could discriminate between the relevant
meteorites in those situations, but...I don't know any well-known
'scientists' who could.

I've put photos of one of the NWA 7034-paired fragments on facebook.
Painfully obvious that it's the same stuff.  If you don't think it's enough
proof, by all means take it to the IMCA.  If they ask me to change the
wording of anything, I suppose I'll have to.

Until then, please stop quoting the rules to me.  You were removed due to
ethics violations, remember?  Or did you resign before you could get booted?

I forget.

Jason


On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 11:39 PM, Martin Altmann
altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 Hi Jason,

 Uff, slowly you seem to understand, what others smarter

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

2013-03-07 Thread Martin Altmann
Ach Jason,

you didn't get the point yet.

All you need to do, in my opinion, is to mark your two Martians as
unclassified, to replace NWA 7034 and NWA 2975 in your menu side bar and
in the titles of your descriptions and ads by NWA ,
and you can call them possible Martians (or the subtype of these Martians)
and likely paired with NWA 2975 and NWA 7034.
(And else feel free to write what you want in your descriptions and
advertising).

That's already all.

So they won't be mistaken anymore to be paired by a scientist or classified
by a scientist or being a true part of the single NWA 2975 stone or the very
lot of stones, which received the number NWA 7034.

This is the standard, not I or Adam asks from you, but the IMCA.
And like this such cases were handled by IMCA in past.

If you don't like that or you think, that it is nonsense,
then don't beat me. But then it will be better, that you quit IMCA.


And to avoid, that you think, that it's a witch-hunt,
I invited you, that we both ask IMCA.
(Because I guess, they will tell you quite the same, as I told, if you don't
know the IMCA rules yet.
 - and so you probably will see, that's nothing personal). 

But I'm asking you for that now for the 4th or 5th time.
And still don't know your answer. Although I tried to lure you in, in
bidding a crate of beer for the case they won't share my opinion.

Best!
Martin



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Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

2013-03-05 Thread Martin Altmann
.
That sentence I forgive you, due to your youth.
Don't be silly, I see no reason for attacking you personally, because we
have different opinions, to which extent the terrestrial history and
acquired secondary properties justify, that the find rates drop, cause the
private sector shall be excluded from hunting, trading and collecting.

I know for a fact that
Probably the same way like you knew it for a fact, that all NWA 7034 but
yours was cut with lubrifiants, even in the research labs or that I would
have been removed from IMCA...

Jason, meteorite collecting is an affair, which requires a certain degree of
accuracy.
There it is often not the best way, to transport hear-say as own factual
knowledge.

Cheers!
Martin




-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Jason Utas [mailto:meteorite...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. März 2013 09:29
An: Michael Bross
Cc: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

Hello Michael, Martin, Adam,
On the contrary, in this case, scores of stones have been recovered of each
meteorite, and it is no longer reasonable to donate samples of each.

I know for a fact that the both of you (Martin, Adam) haven't analyzed each
and every stone that you've bought that was paired to NWA 2975, so where is
the line drawn?  If you haven't analyzed every piece, I'm assuming that you
have some way of analytically confirming the authenticity of every fragment
you've offered, given your statements.

Should I give a lab a single fragment to analyze, and assume the rest are
real because the lab has confirmed it?  If that's the case, I would gladly
sell the fragment in the lot I purchased that wasn't paired with NWA 7034 --
as NWA 7034.  After all, the lot of fragments would be paired with NWA 7034
via analysis.

Or did you donate samples from each Tissint that both of you bought?
I know at least Martin sold quite a bit of it, but I have the feeling that
he didn't donate 20% of his acquisitions.  Adam, I assume you bought some.
Since the stones *could* have been similar finds, why didn't you follow the
procedure with that meteorite?

Or is that meteorite so obviously all 'the same' that it wasn't done?
When can someone decide that?

No, I'm sorry, guys.  If it's one or two stones and they could be distinct
meteorites, sure.  NWA 2975 was thousands of small stones, and we can all
recognize the fusion crust, shock veins, and maskelynite grains.  NWA 7034
and pairings have a brecciated texture just as unique.  And since I already
have analytical data confirming the 2975 (and will soon have the data on the
7034 pairing), I get the cheap shots from you dealers, but...eh.  I get it.

You're not even questioning the material, either of you.  You're just saying
that I need to donate the 20% tax despite the fact that the stones are all
obviously paired to their respective rocks.

I both disagree with you two -- and think this is BS because you're
attacking me for things I've said to you in the past.

Jason

On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Michael Bross elemen...@peconic.net
wrote:
 Dear Martin, Jason and List

 First, Martin, I love your highly spirited answer to Jason.
 Jason, as Martin says (and respects you)... you both should smoke the 
 peace pipe...

 I am following this list because I love meteorites, although I am 
 barely buying any... maybe I will in the future.
 (I love pallasites... but sooo expensive...)

 This is a great back and forth exchange which gets to the core of some 
 really technical but real aspect of dealing with classifying, selling 
 etc...

 So... hope you solve your momentary quarrel

 Cheers
 Michael B.  (a meteorite fan from France)


 --
 From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
 Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 6:28 PM
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com

 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 Hiho Jason,

 not at all, I haven't any likely NWA 7034 at hand (nor would I have 
 original NWA 7034 at hand, to compare), neither any leftover of NWA 
 4766 an official NWA 2975 pairing, whereof all stones were looked 
 through by a meteorite scientist.
 (and anyway, how could you think that about me, tststs shame on you.
 Anyway
 I was out of biz for more than a year now, due to a disease and it 
 will take a while until my little star will raise again to sparkle 
 between the stars of the splendid Northern constellation of the FC 
 Meteorite House).

 (I hadn't cost you a customer, it was his free decision.
 He asked in the forum, I told him, that also for me your description 
 is not 100% clear and that he should ask you about the status of your 
 material.
 And as he was a newer collector, I told him the difference between 
 unclassified and classified material in the view of a collector. Told 
 him, when his concern is only about the material itself, he could 
 take advantage of your offer (as I trust

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

2013-03-05 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Jason,

Uff, slowly you seem to understand, what others smarter than we both got
already from the 1st posting on.

I say:

- Your material has a different status than NWA 2975 and NWA 7034,
especially a lower collector's (and therefore monetary)
  value.

- You present your material in a way, which makes a possible buyer believe,
that they are either part of the very stone(s)  
  to which classifiers and the Meteoritical Society designed the numbers NWA
2975 and NWA 7034, or that they were confirmed by a professional meteorite
scientist to be paired to them.

- As long as you don't own a degree in that field and as long they don't
undergo the formal classification and acceptationprocedures of the
Meteoritical Society, you're not allowed to call them formally paired to
these numbers, but you have to make it unmistakably clear, that this is only
your personal guess.

- It is good business practice to use the same conventions, how to label and
name such material, like they are established among your dealers and
collectors colleagues.

- The way you present and describe your material breaks the binding rules of
the International Meteorite Collectors Association, to which you agreed to
abide as a member.
In particular those, quoty quote:

If members wish to sell or trade meteoritic specimens, then those items
must be 'actually and exactly what is claimed.' (Merriam-Webster-Dictionary)
Our members agree to adhere to the highest standards of meteorite
identification and proper labelling practices.

(...)

I agree that it is the sole responsibility of each member to accurately
describe meteoritic material for sale, trade or other related transactions
without providing any misleading or false information. 

and especially (...)

I agree that unclassified 'meteorites' purchased on eBay or other avenues
from unknown sellers might not be meteorites. I will not sell or trade any
meteorites I may have found (or any questionable meteoritic material) unless
I first obtain verification from a meteorite expert.

And especially:

 Verified but unclassified material should be specified as such.
Meteoritical Society guidelines will prevail in the circumstance of
meteorite naming and pairing

(- mean point, therefore the brackets, would be, to remind you, that for you
the way that Mr. Jorge authenticated his pseudo-Chelyabinsk wasn't
sufficient - but nothing else did you with your Martians, i.e. to trust your
source and to inspect them personally. There is the danger for you, to loose
credibility in attacking others..)


And see,
Especially the last point regarding the Code of Ethics of IMCA makes it so
comfort for both of us,
cause we don't have to discuss, whether those procedures are necessary or
meaningful or which properties of your material made you think to be able to
verify it or whether evil Martin doesn't like your nose or whether your
material is authentic ect.pp.
that's all not of interest,

of interest is, if you fulfill the formalities the IMCA set for you (and the
standard of the MetSoc and the standard among collectors, dealers, hunters,
researchers) in appraising your material.

To me it seems not so.
To you all seems alright.

And the comfort thing for us is,
we don't have to decide that, but we can leave it to that organization, to
decide.
So that none of has to be tempted to suppose personal motivations in that
question.

That's why I asked you, whether you'd like to ask IMCA together with me
about that case.

But so far, I got no o.k. neither a no from you :-(

Best,
Martin




  

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jason
Utas
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2013 02:08
An: Martin Altmann; Meteorite-list
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

Martin, All,

Personal jibes aside...

Certainly -- I'll let others decide if this is enough information, and
they're more than welcome to buy a sample to have it tested.  I have no
doubt that everything I'm offering is authentic, but everything I offer is
of course backed by a full money-back guarantee.  One that I will actually
honor.

I find it perhaps most amusing that you're not even saying that the samples
I'm offering aren't paired with NWA 7034 or NWA 2975.  If you are well
familiarized with meteorites, I'm certain that you can tell that they're
paired as well, from the photos alone.

An analysis wouldn't tell you as much, nor would it prove the authenticity
of most of the fragments that I am offering.  Only a visual examination
would do as much, unless you advocated polishing a side of each specimen and
analyzing each one individually -- but such a burden of proof has *never*
before been asked of any meteorite dealer.

NWA 7034 and pairings are not just a breccia, as you describe them.
The general texture of the breccia, as I have said before, is unlike any
other meteorite or rock that I have ever seen

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

2013-03-04 Thread Martin Altmann
 per gram for pieces less than a half
gram or so.  Only pieces in the gram+ range were as little as $10,000 per
gram.

I started my pricing at $10,000 per gram and went down to $5,000 per gram
for larger pieces.  My prices were a fraction of the advertised price for
these stones, and unless other dealers have dropped their prices by ~50% or
more, my prices are still lower.

So, yes, my specimens are priced at a fraction of what other specimens are
(or were) priced at.  I haven't looked around in the past week or so, but I
assume that's still true.  Since I paid just over five times as much per
gram for this material as I have for any other meteorite from NWA, I think
that's fair.

Why donating 20 grams or 20% of the material would enable me to raise prices
by 50% to 300% is beyond my comprehension, though.

I donated a fragment of the NWA 2975 lot to destructive research at UC
Berkeley; it was mechanically destroyed, and the maskelynite crystals were
removed for several Ar dating runs (which did agree with the conclusions
reached by other dating methods for NWA 2975).

Of course, since those stones could also have come from different locations,
in theory, I would need to cut or break each one to confirm it, right?  Even
the ones that weigh 0.1-0.2 grams.

By and large, I try to be reasonable with such things.  Where do you draw
the line between a large find like Taza or NWA 869 and something like NWA
2975?  NWA 801?  Each of these meteorites are now examples of large finds
with hundreds, if not thousands, of individuals on the market.  As such, I
thought NWA 2975 would be a fine name to use.
Everyone knows it, the stones are easily recognizable, and there is already
much of it in labs waiting to be studied.

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/mmc/NWA2975.pdf

I accurately describe TKW's to the best of my knowledge and describe things
as fully as I can on my website so that there is no potential for
misinformation.

The vast majority of our stones are individually analyzed.  The only stones
on the website that have not been analyzed -- yet, that I would be willing
to say have an official number on our website -- are NWA 2975.  It's too
common and easily recognizable to bother.

Regards,
Jason

On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
wrote:

 Hi Jason,

 no offense, but only a remark.
 You're always pretty fast, when it's about blaming sellers to be 
 dishonest or fraudulent.
 In my personal opinion that doesn't fit directly well together with 
 some offerings on your webpage.
 For instance some of the Martians,
 there it is not directly clear for the reader, whether the specimens, 
 which you reckon to be paired to black beauty - NWA
 7034 are parts of the original stones, which were numbered or whether 
 they will be still classified and will receive an own NWA number or 
 whether they were told by a scientist to be paired and remain 
 unnumbered or whether it's your personal opinion based on your experience.

 Same to some extent with the obviously unclassified stones, where you 
 use the number NWA 2975 (which was one single stone) in the menu side bar.

 In my eyes that is problematical.
 It seems to be a classical self-pairing, which should be a no-go for 
 IMCA-members.

 But especially it's somewhat not so fine for the not yet so 
 experienced collectors, as they often are not aware, that such 
 unclassified stones will have later in case they want to swap or trade 
 them once, do have a remarkably lower collector's and trade value - 
 thus a lower monetary value than their officially recognized and 
 numbered comrades.

 Neither the latter is evident for the naïve beginner, if he reads your 
 prices.
 The unclassified ones, which you relate to NWA 7034 cost around 
 10,000$/g on your pages and also the supposed NWA 2975-pairing are not 
 different in price than the specimens sold by more professional 
 collectors and dealers, who took the time and costs to get their share 
 of that meteorite properly classified and numbered.

 I think, it would be more respectable and fair towards the collectors 
 and laypeople (and to your seller colleagues), if you would make more 
 unmistakably clear, that those stones are possibly paired to the 
 numbers you give there, based on your personal opinion as a 
 non-scientist and perhaps to adjust the prices. (for the rookies, 
 unclassified self-guesses have always to be cheaper than official 
 numbers from the Bulletin, because, se above, they do have a lower 
 value in the usances of the meteorite scene and because they have 
 lower costs for the seller, cause for a classification you have to 
 supply the institute with a share of 20% or 20grams of the meteorite 
 for free and sometimes you have to pay a part of the classification 
 costs too).

 And last but not least, that would give more weight to your words, 
 when you doubt the reliability of other sellers in public.
 (Take for instance the case now, where it seems for you

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

2013-03-04 Thread Martin Altmann
 of the rest of my last email.

I'll let you know about the results from the analysis here at school if
you're so curious.  As I said, we already confirmed the NWA 2975
analytically, so forgive me if I don't take the time to respond to your
repetitive points.

Never mind the fact that I probably shouldn't be taking advice on how to
stay in the IMCA from someone who got himself removed as you did.

Jason

On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
wrote:
 Yes, Yep, Yeah Jason!

 You forget always, how old I am..  A more proper answer would have been:
 Thank you for bringing it to my attention, I'll correct it.

 I remember that in my active time in the IMCA-board such cases like 
 yours were the most common complaints filed against members. The 
 solution isn't a big thing, usually the board commended to the 
 indicted to use those simple
 terms:
 An unclassified in a prominent position and  likely and possible.

 You know, you have to give to the potential buyer the proper 
 information as a base for him to make his decision.
 Your stones are unclassified according the guidelines of the 
 Meteoritical Society and the Code of Ethics of the IMCA, Regarding the 
 latter you have to indicate that.

 Whether a collector or buyer concedes to you sufficient experience and 
 competence to identify your samples by your own correctly, you have 
 simply to leave to him.

 I wouldn't have wrote that, if not already a case had happened, 
 showing that your advertizing of the possible 7034 pairing can be
misleading.
 After the fuss in media around NWA 7034 a not yet so experienced 
 German collector found your offerings and was convinced to get a true 
 part of the original NWA 7034 stones.

 You've to put yourself in the position of the various collectors, not 
 all are content with the intrinsic properties of the material itself, 
 to some it adds a lot to such a sample, to print out the articles from 
 the media and to be able to show his specimen to others while pointing 
 on a photo in these articles, being able to say, from this very stone my
sample was taken from.

 Also you will confess, if asked by a collector, which stone he shall
choose:
 That one from an unnumbered group, not listed in the Bulletin, of a 
 likely pairing of NWA 2975 at 500$/g or that one from a grouplet 
 officially classified and with an own number designed at 500$/g, 
 you'll commend him the latter, as you know the techniques and the 
 customs of meteorite collecting.

 So that collector asked in a forum, what the members would think about 
 your offer.
 (I wished, that someone else than me would have given an answer to 
 him, (but the others were inert.) cause now I gave the opportunity to 
 a member there to continue to knit his favourite legend, that the 
 incarnate evil strikes again to annihilate the world's dealership)

 Well and I answered him, that he should ask you again, whether your 
 share will be officially classified or not.
 And told him, that if for him more the material itself is important, 
 he can buy it, as I rely in your abilities to recognize it, though if 
 he cares for later swaps, sales ect. that, what I had written in the last
posting.
 And that's up to him, to decide.
 (Another member added an understandable opinion, that if a meteorite 
 costs 10k$ a gram, the collector could expect, that it had been 
 properly classified).

 Btw. meteorites do not travel only in space, but from collection to 
 collection.
 How easily that NWA-numbers you use in your description can later slip 
 on the label, mislabeling the specimen.

 Anyway,
 if a classification would make your material more expensive, is not of 
 interest for a collector neither whether a material is too common and 
 recognizable for you personally (an argument which that Jorge could 
 have used too) He needs only the proper information about the status 
 of the material to be able to make his decisions.

 And anyway,
 Whether meaningful or not, these are the rules, which you signed to 
 obey, when you joined that club of IMCA.

 Well in that sense, I think, that club would certainly advise you to 
 change your advertizing in the manner I explained to you.

 Best!
 Martin



 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
 [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von 
 Jason Utas
 Gesendet: Samstag, 2. März 2013 21:21
 An: Meteorite-list
 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 Hello Martin, All,

 No, no, no, and no.

 I do not directly refer to the NWA 7034-paired material on my website 
 as NWA 7034.  I merely state that it is paired material.  In the case 
 of 7034, I scrutinized even the smallest fragments and volunteered a 
 fragment for destructive analysis here at school.  One of the 
 fragments I received was not the same material as NWA 7034, and it is 
 set aside.  Admittedly, the sample for work is not 20% of the weight

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

2013-03-02 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Jason,

no offense, but only a remark.
You're always pretty fast, when it's about blaming sellers to be dishonest
or fraudulent.
In my personal opinion that doesn't fit directly well together with some
offerings on your webpage. 
For instance some of the Martians,
there it is not directly clear for the reader,
whether the specimens, which you reckon to be paired to black beauty - NWA
7034 are parts of the original stones, which were numbered or whether they
will be still classified and will receive an own NWA number or whether they
were told by a scientist to be paired and remain unnumbered or whether it's
your personal opinion based on your experience.

Same to some extent with the obviously unclassified stones, where you use
the number NWA 2975 (which was one single stone) in the menu side bar.

In my eyes that is problematical.
It seems to be a classical self-pairing, which should be a no-go for
IMCA-members.

But especially it's somewhat not so fine for the not yet so experienced
collectors,
as they often are not aware, that such unclassified stones will have later
in case they want to swap or trade them once, do have a remarkably lower
collector's and trade value - thus a lower monetary value than their
officially recognized and numbered comrades.

Neither the latter is evident for the naïve beginner, if he reads your
prices.
The unclassified ones, which you relate to NWA 7034 cost around 10,000$/g on
your pages and also the supposed NWA 2975-pairing are not different in price
than the specimens sold by more professional collectors and dealers, who
took the time and costs to get their share of that meteorite properly
classified and numbered.

I think, it would be more respectable and fair towards the collectors and
laypeople (and to your seller colleagues), if you would make more
unmistakably clear, that those stones are possibly paired to the numbers you
give there,
based on your personal opinion as a non-scientist
and perhaps to adjust the prices. (for the rookies, unclassified
self-guesses have always to be cheaper than official numbers from the
Bulletin, because, se above, they do have a lower value in the usances of
the meteorite scene and because they have lower costs for the seller, cause
for a classification you have to supply the institute with a share of 20% or
20grams of the meteorite for free and sometimes you have to pay a part of
the classification costs too).

And last but not least, that would give more weight to your words, when you
doubt the reliability of other sellers in public.
(Take for instance the case now, where it seems for you not enough
authentication,
when the seller of the probable pseudo-Chelyabinsk told, that his source
assured, that they are authentic. - with the 2975 and 7034 you did just the
same, didn't you?).

As told, no offence intended,
only a suggestion for an improvement.

(Remark to Uruacu vs. Campo. Uruacu has also much more troilite blobs than
Campo).

Best!
Martin


  

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von jason
utas
Gesendet: Freitag, 1. März 2013 05:32
An: Meteorite-list
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

Hello Adam, All,

Actually, Uruacu does appear to be distinct from Campo del Cielo.
Uruacu appears to be a much older meteorite that has weathered in different
conditions, and many individuals show cohenite when cut -- a mineral I have
never seen in Campo del Cielo.  Generally speaking, Campos run the full
range from freshly-fusion crusted to rusty lumps, and everything in-between.
But, Campo fell within the past ~5,000 years, so we're talking about rapid
weathering in a wet environment (also why it's a ruster).  Uruacu fell in a
drier area, and most individuals exhibit a much more uniform covering of
shale that does not readily flake off due to rusting.  They seem to have
fallen much longer ago, and are generally more weathered due to the fact
that they've been around for longer.  Uruacu generally resists rusting
better.

It would be like comparing Sikhote Alin to Henbury.  No Henburies I know of
rust, but, by and large, they're not as fresh as most Sikhotes.  But some
Sikhotes appear to have fallen into swampy areas and look pretty bad -- and
rust.  It's hard to mix the two up.

The trouble is that I've also seen Campos sold as Uruacu, which complicates
things.  Uruacu is a very old fall.  Even some reputable dealers have been
selling specimens of new Campo (crust,
regmaglypts) as Uruacu.  Very different.  I assume this is due to dishonest
suppliers.

There's a stunning, fairly large Uruacu for sale at the moment.  Not mine,
but I wonder if this will bring it out of the woodwork.

Regards,
Jason

 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Date: Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:59 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
 To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com



 Isn't 

Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Black Market (Weather Channel)

2013-03-02 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi yo,

I wonder, why authors of such articles never mention, that the participants
in that black market are extraordinarily simple minded people.

Sittin as a hermit retreated in a cell in the Schaeftlarn monastery trying
to get my annual tax declaration ready within less than 4 weeks,

I asked myself, why so many people are willing to take the stress of working
60-80 hours a week for meteorites, undercover and in highly criminal
circles, taking the risk of decades long imprisonment or even death penalty,
like if they would deal with heroin or would smuggle plutonium,
when there are only a few single splendid examples of that pack, whose
revenues constantly exceed the salary (and pension plan) of a middle school
teacher?

I guess, they must be either really desperate or remarkably stupid.

In former times I thought, such stories would originate from curators coming
home,
telling them to their wives/husbands to impress them what for a exciting and
dangerous job they would have, hoping their better halves would tolerate
when Indiana Jones or Lara Croft leaves his/her socks on in bed...

but now?

To me it seems, that in general the U.S. print media have lost a lot of
quality and standards, or at least whenever I'm in USA, I'm astonished how
poor the newspapers are compared to European ones.
Here in Germany, but also in Austria I've read a lot of really excellent
pieces about meteorites in the bigger newspapers,
and as far as I remember (also in TV) the monetary aspects never was pointed
out and of course that illegality-BS neither.

Best!
Martin



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic
Stone  Ironworks
Gesendet: Samstag, 2. März 2013 21:46
An: Joshua Tree Earth  Space Museum
Cc: meteorite list
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Black Market (Weather Channel)

Someone please tell me where the Black Market is.  I would love to see it.
Is it an unmarked building in the industrial district of Chicago?  What is
the code word to gain entry through the forbidden Naugahyde Door?

If there is a meteorite black market, then it must be the most highly-kept
secret in the world, along with the location of Jimmy Hoffa's body and the
identity of the second gunman who shot JFK.

I hear every second tuesday of the month is Forbidden Meteorite Day, and
all shoppers get a free Berduc stone and a pack of Katol Menthol Light
100's.

Best regards,

MikeG

FWIW - there are MANY more crooked writers than there are meteorite dealers.
Look how many writers get outed for plagiarism nowadays, and compare that
number to the population of disgraced meteorite dealers - the writers win
that dubious distinction with ease.




On 3/2/13, Joshua Tree Earth  Space Museum dori...@embarqmail.com wrote:
 An article from the Weather Channel entitled: Meteor Fragments Hot on 
 the Black Market.

 http://www.weather.com/news/meteor-cleanup-20130218


 Phil Whitmer
 Joshua Tree Earth  Space Museum

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Re: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites (Guardian data blog)

2013-02-16 Thread Martin Altmann
And Kloster Schäftlarn has wrong coordinates,
it lies a little to the South of Munich.


-

A couple problems.

I suppose you mean the Meteoritical Society, not the Meteorological Society,
since we are talking about meteorites not weather.
Also, there should be a red dot in Alsace, eastern France, where the
Ensisheim meteorite fell in 1492.

Besides that, this map is a great idea.


Anne M. Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
impact...@aol.com


-Original Message-
From: Rich Atkinson atkins...@gmail.com
To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Fri, Feb 15, 2013 10:23 pm
Subject: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites (Guardian
data blog)


Every meteorite fall on earth mapped

Or at least those we know about. And where are the known meteorite
landing places on earth? These impact zones show where scientists have
found meteorites, or the impact craters of meteorites, some dating
back as far as the year 2,300BC. The data is from the US
Meteorological Society and doesn't show those places where meteorites
may have fallen but not been discovered


http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2013/feb/15/meteorite-fa
ll-map

rich
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Re: [meteorite-list] Doug Schmitt's Talk at TEDxVancouver on 21st October 2012

2013-02-07 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi,

maybe it would make more sense to address Mr.Schmitt personally?
To ask him, to make his homework first, before he gets up on the golden soap 
box.
It seems to me, that after a full dozen of years, he still hasn't read yet the 
laws, he interpreted
in his paper he had published then.
The simple mistakes he made there, regarding the laws of Switzerland, New 
Zealand, India, (probably Denmark too)
And especially regarding the 1970 UNESCO convention,
were several times here demonstrated on the list by means of the original texts 
and wordings of the respective laws.

But whether it could make sense,
I doubt it, because to me it seems, that Mr.Schmitt doesn't know, that he is 
selling his own (in those above mentioned cases invalid) interpretations of 
laws and not the real existing laws themselves.
Furthermore it will be difficult, as I fear, the basic information in that area 
are still unknown to Mr.Schmitt (and that after so long time), when I hear him 
his speech starting in claiming that most meteorites would be found in 
Antarctica.
This is definitely untrue, most meteorites were found in Sahara desert. He 
doesn't know the concept of pairing (on average 5 of the Antarctic meteorites 
are paired with each other) and he doesn't know the difference between the 
Antarctic field numbering system and the NWA, Dho, DaG and so on numbering 
process.
Neither he knows, that the main load of ordinary weathered and equilibrated 
chondrites recovered in Sahara, doesn't appear in the Bulletins, cause they are 
of so low scientific use and interest, that they aren't classified and 
numbered, but exceed by far the finds from Sahara given in the Bulletins.

Well and that private collectorship and trade would be harmful,
that he should prove by speaking with the curators of the big institutional 
collections 
and in studying the annals of these institutes, where in past and today their 
meteoritic inventory was acquired from.


That said, I personally admire Schmitt to be so keen, to hold such public 
lessons,
as in principle he is risking that his reputation as an attorney could be 
damaged, if some true experts in that area would report the real facts.

Not my cup of tea.
(IMCA I think, wouldn't be at the moment the right organization to write an 
answer,
as they are still searching for the stand and their binding position towards 
laws.)


Only my private opinion.

Martin



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com 
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mendy 
Ouzillou
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 7. Februar 2013 08:07
An: Yinan Wang
Cc: Adam; MEM
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Doug Schmitt's Talk at TEDxVancouver on 21st 
October 2012

Common sense advice - love it.

Will have to do that soon as I'm getting up way to early to catch my flight to 
Tucson.

:-)

Mendy Ouzillou



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[meteorite-list] WG: AD: Largest Imilchil Selection (New Iron Meteorite)

2013-02-04 Thread Martin Altmann

Hi Mike:

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2003.JPG



Tons of Neumann Lines, a lot of schreibersite (large crystals down to
rhabdites).

Thus either hexahedrite, coarsest octahedrite or even IIG is possible.

Best.
FCM



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Michael
Farmer
Gesendet: Montag, 4. Februar 2013 07:47
An: Ruben Garcia
Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] AD: Largest Imilchil Selection (New Iron
Meteorite)

Has it been etched? Curious what it looks like inside.



Michael Farmer

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 3, 2013, at 11:36 PM, Ruben Garcia rubengarcia85...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi List,
 
 The new Iron meteorite from Morocco, called Imilchil was found in 
 December 2012 and just made it to Tucson, where I purchased all I 
 could find and now offer the largest selection of specimens to you.
 
 The specimens I have feature a natural patina and as far as I know I'm 
 the only one here with larger (up to a kilo) size specimens.
 
 Prices start at only $2 per gram!
 http://www.mrmeteorite.com/imilchilnewiron.htm
 
 
 --
 Rock On!
 
 Ruben Garcia
 http://www.MrMeteorite.com
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[meteorite-list] European Meteorite Artifacts

2013-02-02 Thread Martin Altmann
Good day,

you haven't always to visit to the American natives, the Inuit or the old
Pharaohs for such stuff:

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/2004M%26PSA..39..151K/151.000.h
tml

Now I know, why never a photo of the bracelets and the axe was available,
they were interim lost.

Though the fate which happened to the bracelets:  OMG: B a r b a r i a n
s!!!

(Hummhem, the two other objects... sounds doubtful to me).

Best!
Martin

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Re: [meteorite-list] OT: USPS price increase: international = crazy increase!

2013-01-28 Thread Martin Altmann
But, Mike, other things became remarkably cheap.

Imagine, you'd have to do all your e-mail traffic in form of paper letters,
and if it's urgent to pay a.. a... a telegram. full stop.
Or to print your assortment lists and to send them by mail out.
Oops sorry, to type them first by typewriter and to hectograph them (cool,
my English dictionary hasn't that word anymore).
Huh, we had then even extra-thin paper for airmail-letters.

...like it was common practice still far into the 1990s.

If I would do so, I easily would pay 15-20k$ a year only for buying stamps!

Or, hihihi, do you remember the first cellular phones?
These where you had still to carry a suitcase under the other arm?
And where the people and we laughed so much about the cockalorums, when they
ostentatiously screamed on the street in the handset: I'm just this moment
walking on that and that road..

Oops. Have to explain to the kiddies, why that was so funny:
At those times then, the phone was at home. If you called somebody and a
person was not answering, you knew that that person was not at home. And if
he answered, you hadn't to ask, where he is and what he's doing, because you
knew, that he's home and is speaking on the phone.   Hence it was a
zero-information.
And dear children, so it is still today! It makes no sense to call or to
send an SMS to ask, where the other would be at the moment or to report
where you are.
Because if you're waiting for someone, it doesn't help you to know, whether
he's in the supermarket, on a baseball field or on the road,
Becauuse he comes, when he comes.  All other information is
irrelevant.

Would be interesting to know, with how many billions the private consumption
could be risen,
if people would stop sending these empty information, where they are at the
moment and what they are doing at the moment, wouldn't it?

Alas,
Children, we survived these old times, without problems.
On contrary, it wasn't so stressing and stroboscopic like today.

Today we suffered horrible deformations.
Look at me, I get already impatient, because I'm waiting for Mike's decision
for 12 hours only, although he is at the moment 10,000 miles away from me,
and where we would have sent then letters forth and back for the same thing,
which would have taken easily 3 weeks.

Skol
Martin

PS: Iiiieeek!  German collectors have not only to pay import-VAT on the
meteorites sent fom non-EU, but also on the postage! That's mean, cause in
Germany buying stamps is VAT-free.
Always those communists

(PPS: To Adam I say, make money not war, then it works also with the
states-budget again ;-)

PPS: By the way, I'm sitting at the moment in front of my computer and I'm
typing this posting...  ;-)



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic
Stone  Ironworks
Gesendet: Montag, 28. Januar 2013 16:12
An: Adam Hupe
Cc: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] OT: USPS price increase: international = crazy
increase!

My local clerk gave me a heads-up about this hike last week.  It still sucks
though.  Gripe +1.

This is just another cost that dealers will have to pass along to
collectors.

A while back, I stopped using boxes to ship Riker displays.  Now I wrap them
up in a double-layer of padding and put them into a bubble-mailer.  This
saves several ounces on weight and a few dollars on postage.  There is a
higher risk of breakage now, but thankfully none have been broken so far.
I'll replace the occasional damaged one when the situation arises, so it's
worth it to keep the overall costs down a bit.

The international increase is the worst part.  I ship a lot of First Class
International packages to places like Canada and the UK.  Some of these
could be shipped for $4 or less.  Heck, a small bubble mailer to Canada
often cost under $3 and was cheaper than sending the same package to Hawaii
or Alaska.  I guess that has changed now.  It's bad enough the customs short
form now requires 10 minutes of standing in line for each package, and now
this.

Like Adam said - I recall the early days of Flat Rate shipping (not that
long ago actually), and while the cost has gone up, the amount or quality of
service paid for has not.  It's the same as most consumer goods or services
over the last decade - less for more.

Best regards,

MikeG

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On 1/28/13, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 This is typical of USPS and Government in general.  Give absolutely no
 warning of impending price or tax increases and make decisions at the last
 possible second.  There are going to be a lot of shocked 

Re: [meteorite-list] OT: USPS price increase: international = crazy increase!

2013-01-28 Thread Martin Altmann
True Mike!

Here you have a view of my office,
just before I switched from Sinclair ZX 81 to a Commodore 64.
http://kuerzer.de/homeoffice1983   *

Btw. do you know also this sudden and strange feeling, when you're watching
else excellent thrillers from the 1970s and early eighties, when then it
comes unavoidably to a scene playing in the police department?   The desks!
They are empty! Only a lamp, sometimes a typewriter - some paper..  and such
strange wooden sticks...hm so called pencils, one or two black phones
with dial plates.  A metal filing cabinet in the corner. A water dispenser.
Wastepaper basket. City map on the wall with pins. Coatrack.

Uh how could they live and work then?

And what shall the children think?
I guess for them it's the same feeling, like when we had watched Buster
Keaton, Fats Arbuckle, Ben Turpin movies...


Gosh are w ld, Mike!

And now I'll calculate your bill,
Guess with what for an instrument?

With a Casio fx-100.
What a quality! It works still perfectly after 30 years.
That's what I call true sustainability!

Best!
Martin

*huh, nice recovery, look at the model in the centre,
Ah now we know, where the architects took the ideas for the Burj Khalifa
from!!


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Galactic Stone  Ironworks [mailto:meteoritem...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Montag, 28. Januar 2013 18:35
An: Martin Altmann
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] OT: USPS price increase: international = crazy
increase!

Hi Martin and List,

Oh I do remember the good old days.  When important people carried beepers
and they were still dime payphones on every corner. I could fuel my gashog
Camaro at 83 cents a gallon and a pack of Marlboros was $1.75.  A movie
ticket was $3.  Minimum wage was $3.35 an hour at my first job.  The
internet didn't yet exist and I downloaded software from dial-up BBS's at
300 baud.  It would take all night, sometimes 8-10 hours, just to download a
game that took up two floppy disks.
One hiccup of line noise and the whole thing had to be scrapped and
re-downloaded.  Rotary phone in the kitchen that had a long coiled cord that
could be stretched halfway across the house and through two doorways was
usually my internet connection.  The handset would be unplugged and the
cord plugged into the modem.

How many people remember the old IRC's?  International Reply Coupons.
These were once standard fare when making small purchases from overseas
vendors - typically used when requesting a catalog to be mailed out.

An ever-dwindling number of dealers still use snail mail to send out
offerings, but it's a practice that is dying out.  I still appreciate it
though and love receiving them.

And yes, yes, and yes - I want one of those Meteorite Super Trump card decks
before they are all gone.  Send me a PayPal invoice.  :)

Now, if this was 1986, I'd press Send and this email would take about 10
minutes to send, line by line.  LOL.  And it wasn't called email then, it
was simply a message.

Best regards,

MikeG

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On 1/28/13, Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 But, Mike, other things became remarkably cheap.

 Imagine, you'd have to do all your e-mail traffic in form of paper
letters,
 and if it's urgent to pay a.. a... a telegram. full stop.
 Or to print your assortment lists and to send them by mail out.
 Oops sorry, to type them first by typewriter and to hectograph them
 (cool,
 my English dictionary hasn't that word anymore).
 Huh, we had then even extra-thin paper for airmail-letters.

 ...like it was common practice still far into the 1990s.

 If I would do so, I easily would pay 15-20k$ a year only for buying
stamps!

 Or, hihihi, do you remember the first cellular phones?
 These where you had still to carry a suitcase under the other arm?
 And where the people and we laughed so much about the cockalorums, when
 they
 ostentatiously screamed on the street in the handset: I'm just this moment
 walking on that and that road..

 Oops. Have to explain to the kiddies, why that was so funny:
 At those times then, the phone was at home. If you called somebody and a
 person was not answering, you knew that that person was not at home. And
if
 he answered, you hadn't to ask, where he is and what he's doing, because
 you
 knew, that he's home and is speaking on the phone.   Hence it was a
 zero-information.
 And dear children, so it is still today! It makes no sense to call or to
 send an SMS to ask, where the other would be at the moment or to report
 where you are.
 Because if you're waiting for someone, it doesn't help you to know,
whether
 he's in the supermarket

Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011

2013-01-27 Thread Martin Altmann
But it was reported also here on the list, that in the Farmer/Ward trial the
court decided that the mining decree wasn't violated?

Btw. I can't find the decree anymore on web for free.
Only for buying at 80$ tststs strange country, where you have to pay
first to know, whether you act legally or illegally. 

And since when does the meteorite world take the press for a reliable source
of information?

Best,
Martin,
Who never read the NYT again ;-)

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic
Stone  Ironworks
Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 16:49
An: Paul H.
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite
finds in 2011

In other words -

foreign hunters beware.

Nobody wants to see a nation plundered of it's resources - but closing off
the strewnfields to the majority of hunters and arbitrarily enforcing the
laws is not doing science, collectors, or Oman any good.

Best regards and happy huntings,

MikeG
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On 1/27/13, Paul H. inselb...@cox.net wrote:
 Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011
 MENAFN, Muscat Daily, January 25, 2103

http://www.menafn.com/menafn/1093602529/--Oman-contributed-16-of-worlds-mete
orite-finds-2011?src=RSS

 Note that this article states:

 ''Now, export of any kind of rock is prohibited unless
  authorised by the relevant authority,'' he said.

 and

 Oman's Mining Law, The Mining Law issued by Royal
 Decree No 27/2003, prohibits the practice of all rock
 and mineral and exploratory activities and trading in
 the same without obtaining permission from the
 Directorate General of Minerals.

 Some other older articles.

 Experts study meteorites, Oman Observer
 Mon, 17 December 2012
 http://main.omanobserver.om/node/133724

 Oman is major site for meteor discovery (Country
 was second only to Antarctica in meteor finds
 until 2007) Emirates 24/7, October 19, 2010

http://www.emirates247.com/news/oman-is-major-site-for-meteor-discovery-2010
-10-19-1.306190

 Searching for Meteorites in the Deserts of Oman
 by Simon Mitton, Live Science, May 18, 2009
 http://www.livescience.com/3613-searching-meteorites-deserts-oman.html

 Related papers are:

 Korotev, R. L., 2012, Lunar meteorites from Oman.
 Meteoritics  Planetary Science, vol. 47, no 8,
 pp. 1365–1402 (August 2012)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1945-5100.2012.01393.x/abstract

 Hofmann, B. A., E. Gnos, A. Al-Kathiri, and A. J. T. Jull,
 2006, Meteorite accumulation surfaces in Oman: Main
 results of Omani-Swiss meteorite search campaigns,
 2001-2006. 4th Swiss Geoscience Meeting, Bern 2006.

http://geoscience-meeting.scnatweb.ch/sgm2006/SGM06_abstracts/08_OS_Min_Pet/
Hofmann_Beda_Talk_or_Poster.pdf

 Best wishes,

 Paul H.
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Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011

2013-01-27 Thread Martin Altmann
The real question is - what exactly does the Omani law(s) state

Hi Mike,

Perhaps the IMCA knows?
Look:
http://www.muscatdaily.com/Archive/Oman/IMCA-seeks-clarity-over-laws-on-mete
orite-trade


It's obvious to all how Oman is viewing the meteorite market now.  

I assume like in any other country too:  They're viewing it not at all.

I mean, we're speaking about meteorites, don't forget that.
And no sane mind except a little handful of collectors and researchers on
the globe cares about such stuff.
So no reason for hysteria.

Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic
Stone  Ironworks
Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 17:13
An: Adam Hupe
Cc: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite
finds in 2011

I will continue to offer Omani meteorites when the opportunity arises.

Ghubara is a good example.  The current lawmakers and enforcers in Oman
weren't born yet when Ghubara was recovered and distributed.  Or, they were
still suckling on the teat.  That meteorite, and many others, are
effectively grandfathered into legal collections.  If I was offering such
meteorites, I wouldn't be worried.

There is no need to lawyer-up just because you have a few Omani meteorites
in your collection.yet.

Until US authorities decide to openly meddle further into the market, we
have not reached a tipping point where we have to worry about arrest for
simply collecting rocks (celestial rocks, but rocks nonetheless).

It's obvious to all how Oman is viewing the meteorite market now.  But that
does not legally address past Omani meteorites or recoveries.
One cannot arbitrarily enforce a new interpretation of law to make it
retroactive for decades and expect every other nation to follow suit.
What the Omanis want and what is legal under international and national laws
are completely different and confusing things that are not specifically
addressed under any law by most nations.

Now, what dealers and hunters will do is obvious and expected - they are
going to start avoiding Omani meteorites like the plague.  Adam is taking a
prudent and safe approach, but I think it's too early to start ringing the
alarm bells and tossing out the Omani stones from our collections.

The real question is - what exactly does the Omani law(s) state and how are
they enforced?  The recent affair in 2010 was a hot mess that still doesn't
make any legal sense.  They might be saying on thing to the world, but their
own courts apparently don't agree.



On 1/27/13, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Luckily, all my offerings from Oman predate this royal decree or were 
 covered under one of three permits issued to the Germans.  Once I am 
 sold out,  I will no longer offer meteorites from Oman.  We can ad 
 meteorites from the United States which I will no longer be 
 restocking.  I never thought I would see the day when meteorites like 
 Gold Basin, Jellen and Franconia would be considered illegal contraband.

 This is a distributing trend that  will continue due to the 
 popularization of meteorites in the press and on cable TV.

 Happy Hunting,

 Adam
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Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011

2013-01-27 Thread Martin Altmann
A keen hypothesis if you refer to the Meteorite Men Show, Adam.

The introduction of explicit and sometimes restricting meteorite laws,
Hence those of Algeria, Argentina, Australia, Botswana, Canada, Denmark, 
Namibia, New Zealand, Lesotho, (Oman), Poland, The Philippines, Slovakia, 
Swaziland, South Africa
others I don't know (neither yet the wordings of the Algerian...)

predate that show. 

Only the newer U.S.-regulations not.

Best!
Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com 
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe
Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 17:25
An: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds 
in 2011

Unfortunately, lawmakers and bureaucrats watch these shows and base decisions 
upon them as stated by the BLM in their last public writings.

Old-time treasure hunters and clubs are up-in-arms over the new cable show 
called Diggers.  These two idiots are breaking the cardinal rule of keeping 
quite, undoing all of the hard work treasure hunters have spent decades 
repairing.  It looks like history is repeating itself in my old avocation.  I 
have been asked to rejoin my old club called Cascade Treasure Hunters in 
order to let these rookies know that they are considered outcasts.  They took 
it upon themselves to coin all new terms like Juice, Civ, Riv and 
Nector.  No real advocate of amateur or professional treasure hunting would 
be caught dead using this baby-talk in the field.

Happy Hunting,

Adam






- Original Message -

From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Cc: 
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds 
in 2011

But it was reported also here on the list, that in the Farmer/Ward trial the 
court decided that the mining decree wasn't violated?

Btw. I can't find the decree anymore on web for free.
Only for buying at 80$ tststs strange country, where you have to pay 
first to know, whether you act legally or illegally. 

And since when does the meteorite world take the press for a reliable source of 
information?

Best,
Martin,
Who never read the NYT again ;-)

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic 
Stone  Ironworks
Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 16:49
An: Paul H.
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds 
in 2011

In other words -

foreign hunters beware.

Nobody wants to see a nation plundered of it's resources - but closing off the 
strewnfields to the majority of hunters and arbitrarily enforcing the laws is 
not doing science, collectors, or Oman any good.

Best regards and happy huntings,

MikeG
--
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Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - 
http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
-



On 1/27/13, Paul H. inselb...@cox.net wrote:
 Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011 MENAFN, Muscat 
 Daily, January 25, 2103

http://www.menafn.com/menafn/1093602529/--Oman-contributed-16-of-worlds-mete
orite-finds-2011?src=RSS

 Note that this article states:

 ''Now, export of any kind of rock is prohibited unless
  authorised by the relevant authority,'' he said.

 and

 Oman's Mining Law, The Mining Law issued by Royal Decree No 27/2003, 
 prohibits the practice of all rock and mineral and exploratory 
 activities and trading in the same without obtaining permission from 
 the Directorate General of Minerals.

 Some other older articles.

 Experts study meteorites, Oman Observer Mon, 17 December 2012
 http://main.omanobserver.om/node/133724

 Oman is major site for meteor discovery (Country was second only to 
 Antarctica in meteor finds until 2007) Emirates 24/7, October 19, 2010

http://www.emirates247.com/news/oman-is-major-site-for-meteor-discovery-2010
-10-19-1.306190

 Searching for Meteorites in the Deserts of Oman by Simon Mitton, Live 
 Science, May 18, 2009 
 http://www.livescience.com/3613-searching-meteorites-deserts-oman.html

 Related papers are:

 Korotev, R. L., 2012, Lunar meteorites from Oman.
 Meteoritics  Planetary Science, vol. 47, no 8, pp. 1365–1402 (August 
 2012)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1945-5100.2012.01393.x/abstract

 Hofmann, B. A., E. Gnos, A. Al-Kathiri, and A. J. T. Jull, 2006, 
 Meteorite accumulation surfaces in Oman: Main results of Omani-Swiss 
 meteorite search campaigns, 2001-2006. 4th Swiss Geoscience Meeting, 
 Bern 2006.

http://geoscience-meeting.scnatweb.ch/sgm2006/SGM06_abstracts

[meteorite-list] FCM: AD-add: New Imilchil-iron Budget-Individuals

2013-01-26 Thread Martin Altmann
Hello there,

well, in some cultures the new week starts on Saturday (and we will be good
boysgirls and will be quiet the necessary following days)

but the initial Ad is already sold out and we were asked for more of the new
iron recovery.

So excuse us,
that we post now additional specimens.
They get smaller and smaller,
hence this time for really every collector something suitable should to be
found.

For the newer collectors (all others please: ignore.)
Of course we do have Paypal.
Ordering from Europe is not dangerous (we do that since many, many years and
since thousands of meteorite specimens),
shipping to U.S. takes usually 7 +/-2 working days.
We understand and speak (tolerably at least) English
and the Boss of the FC Meteorite House has even an IMCA-number.  (#3503)
- so all in all it doesn't need much confidence to order.
Postage for all sizes/weights/numbers is 4.6$, respectively 7$ (registered).


These ones we have to show, although just sold these very minutes,
because they were the best ones.
Imilchil is externally strongly weathered, so only with a very few specimens
the original shapes are preserved.

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_Set_Formensch%C3%B6n_49_37_g_%2001
.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_Set_Formensch%C3%B6n_49_37_g_%2002
.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_Set_Formensch%C3%B6n_49_37_g_%2003
.JPG


And now, here we go:

I) 26.75g$123
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_26_75_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_26_75_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_26_75_g_%2003.JPG

K) 24.65g$113
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_24_65_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_24_65_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_24_65_g_%2003.JPG

a) 21.86g$98
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_86_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_86_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_86_g_%2003.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_86_g_%2004.JPG

b) 21.07g$96
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_07_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_07_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_07_g_%2003.JPG

c) 20.20g$92
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_20_20_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_20_20_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_20_20_g_%2003.JPG

d) 20.17g$92
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_20_17_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_20_17_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_20_17_g_%2003.JPG

e) 16.44g$75
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_16_44_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_16_44_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_16_44_g_%2003.JPG

f) 16.06g$73
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_16_06_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_16_06_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_16_06_g_%2003.JPG

g) 15.18g$69
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_18_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_18_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_18_g_%2003.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_18_g_%2004.JPG

h) 15.13g$69
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_13_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_13_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_13_g_%2003.JPG

i) 14.86g$68
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_14_86_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_14_86_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_14_86_g_%2003.JPG

j) 13.78g$63
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_13_78_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_13_78_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_13_78_g_%2003.JPG

N) Set of 6   34.03g$156
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_Setof6_34_03_g_%2001.JPG

l) Set of 8   29.04g$133
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_Setof8_29_04_g_%2001.JPG

m) Set of 8   23.81g$109
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_Setof8_23_81_g_%2001.JPG



IF you're in a need for smaller specimens,
we have still a lot of such, down to 1 gram.
Just give us the amount you'd like to spend,
price per gram is 4.6$
and Ironmaster Andi Gren will choose the nicest one for you,
meeting your specifications.


Best regards!

Your FC Meteorite House
A.Gren
M.Altmann
M.Kurschat
E. V.


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Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 7034

2013-01-26 Thread Martin Altmann
Hmmm then maybe
Maghrebinite ?   :-)

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Prof.
Zelimir Gabelica Université de Haute Alsace ENSCMu,
Gesendet: Samstag, 26. Januar 2013 23:48
An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 7034

Maroccoite is also close to the mineral Marokite (CaMn2O4) already named to
honor the occurrence (Morocco or Maroc in French)

Berberite carry many favorable arguments however that name is very close to
the mineral Berborite (a BERyllium BORate)...

But I agree the NWA countries should be honored.
Other suggestions ?

Zelimir
--
Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
Université de Haute Alsace
ENSCMu, Lab. LPI-GSEC,
3, Rue A. Werner,
F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94



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[meteorite-list] FCM: AD: The Brand-New Iron Meteorite Find Ilmichil !

2013-01-24 Thread Martin Altmann
Dear community,


The FCM is delighted to introduce firstly to this list the most recent iron
find;
delighted, because the recovery of a reasonably rich iron meteorite, having
produced so many specimens that a lot of collectors can be satisfied,
is a fairly rare event.

As brand-new this meteorite is, as still inconsistent are the information
about, a natural occurrence.

This iron was found in the region around the town Ilmichil,
therefore the working-name for the iron of the local specialists is
Ilmichil,
though because the location of the strewnfield is known, it is likely that
this new find can obtain ir even keep its geographical name and won't need a
NWA-number.
Some searchers report a crater-like structure in that area, but it is 25
miles away from the strewnfield, so that a connection with that formation
can be ruled out.

The figures of the recovered weight vary.
The highest number we heard, were 80 kgs, whereof 60kgs are allotted in the
main mass and we were told, that small specimens like we will offer today
are relatively scarce.

Meanwhile, when we just were typing out notification of the new sensation to
the European meteorite forum, Alex Seidel found already a short report about
the searches of the University of Agadir for Ilmichil.
Find it here:

http://kuerzer.de/Illmichel

There the dimensions of the strewnfield are given, as well reported, that
180 kgs were retrieved. Also a guess of the terrestrial age you'll read
there: 40,000 years.


Now to the specimens!

The outer trait of the individuals is inconspicuous,
the irons are externally fairly weathered and covered with a rusty-brown
patina.
Here an example of 129 grams:
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_129_18_g_%2001.JPG

However, one distinctive feature does exist, with almost all individuals you
see here and there some schreibersite shining through the oxide-layer.

Of course ironmaster Andi Gren had immediately to reveal the interior
secrets that iron kept.
Voilá - the result was this etching:

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2001.JPG

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2002.JPG

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2003.JPG

As you observe, Ilmichil seems to explode of Neumann lines.
Grouped directing in different directions.
Large and small schreibersite-crystals are abundant.

However no fields became visible on these limited diameters,
therefore we guess it could be a Coarsest Octahedrite,
in principle with that features and the richness in schreibersite even a IIG
can't be ruled out by the optical inspection.

Well.
The FC Meteorite House decided not to take advantage from the news value and
the first amazement, 
and priced the now following specimens moderately and depending on size
at 4$ - 4.6$ per gram.


Bon Appétit!
Your FCM
Andi
Martin
Maren
E.V.


A) Individual   129.18g $516
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_129_18_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_129_18_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_129_18_g_%2003.JPG

B) Individual80.62g $322
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_80_62_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_80_62_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_80_62_g_%2003.JPG

C) Individual64.25g $273
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_64_25_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_64_25_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_64_25_g_%2003.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_64_25_g_%2004.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_64_25_g_%2005.JPG

D) Individual54.96g $233
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_54_96_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_54_96_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_54_96_g_%2003.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_54_96_g_%2004.JPG

E) Individual45.90g $211
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_45_90_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_45_90_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_45_90_g_%2003.JPG

F) Endcut, etched30.82g $141
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2003.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2004.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2005.JPG

G) Individual33.76g $155
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_33_76_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_33_76_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_33_76_g_%2003.JPG
  
H) Individual29.21g $134
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_29_21_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_29_21_g_%2002.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_29_21_g_%2003.JPG

I) Individual26.75g $123
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_26_75_g_%2001.JPG
http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_26_75_g_%2002.JPG

[meteorite-list] FCM: AD: Thin Sections Super Special Sale - Meteorites Impactites 33$ each !! (no matter whether achondrite or chondrite, find or fall!!)

2013-01-17 Thread Martin Altmann
Dear Fans of the FC Meteorite House,
 and all, who still want to become a fan.


We launch today a really respectable special sale
of thin sections (TS) at unrivaled, low prices.

An offer, which is so fantastic, that we don't have to write many words.

We all know, who is the largest supplier of TSses in the collectors' scene.
Chondrites starting there at 70-75$, hardly any achondritic TS found below
100$.

Our TSses don't have that Mercedes-Benz-High-End-quality (neither btw. do
the TSses used for classifications own that),
as they don't have the standard thickness of 35µm,
but are between 20µm and 30µm.

Nevertheless they are very very useable 
and of course that circumstance is more than compensated in the price.

All sections are covered.

Here now the center of the AD:

33$ each!

No matter whether chondrite or achondrite, no matter whether the surface is
small or large, no matter whether find or fall, no matter how rare the
locales is.

Therefore, we think, not only apt for the specialized collector,
but especially also for these, who maybe are interested to try once,
whether thin sections could be a field of collection for them too!

 
Let us start with the impactites, 
because impactite thin sections seem to be even rarer than meteoritic ones.

The direct scans are large enough to decipher the labeling.
Given is always the kind of rock, the name of the impact structure, its
diameter and age.

To offer the FCM has:

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Impactite_TS_01.jpg

-Vredefort
-Gardnos
-Tenoumer
-Söderfjärden
-Dhala 
-Sudbury

as well as

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Impactite_TS_02.jpg

- Kentland
- Ries
- Glover Bluff
- Dellen
- Rochechouart
- Ritland


And here are coming the meteorite thin sections!

For the case, that you can't read the labels so well,
let us list them quickly.

From left to the right and from up to down:

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Duennschliffe01.jpg

Upper Row:

Vyatka
Russia, 1971, H4

Vyatka
Russia, 1971, H4

Sulagiri
India, Fall 2008, LL6

NWA 5611
Sahara, 2008, polymict EUC, low weathering

NWA 7370
Sahara, 2009, Olivine DIO

Camel Donga
Australia, 1984, monomict EUC, fresh

Camel Donga
Australia, 1984, monomict EUC, fresh

Camel Donga
Australia, 1984, monomict EUC, fresh


Middle Row:

NWA 5418
Sahara, 2006, LL6, S3/4, W2

Palomas
Mexico, 2002, H4

Mount Tazerzait
Niger, Fall 1991, anom L5, porous

Mount Tazerzait
Niger, Fall 1991, anom L5, porous

Mount Tazerzait
Niger, Fall 1991, anom L5, porous

Chergach
Mali, Fall 2007, H5, S4

Chergach
Mali, Fall 2007, H5, S4

Chergach
Mali, Fall 2007, H5, S4


Lower Row:

Palomas
Mexico, 2002, H4

El Atchane 017
Algeria, 1997, H4/5, W2

El Atchane 016
Algeria, 1998, H5, S1, W0/1

El Atchane 015
Algeria, 1997, H4, W0/1

SaU 464
Oman, 2008, LL5, S1, W1

Safsaf
Morocco, 1998, L6, S3, W3

NWA 869
Sahara, 2000, L3-6, S3, W1

NWA 869
Sahara, 2000, L3-6, S3, W1


2nd part:

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Duennschliffe02.jpg


Upper Row

Dhofar 631
Oman, 2001, H5, S3, W4

Dhofar 631
Oman, 2001, H5, S3, W4

NWA 067
Sahara, 2000, L6, S2, W5

SaU 001
Oman, 2000, L4/5, S2, W1


Middle Row

SaU 464
Oman, 2008, LL5, S1, W1

NWA 836
Sahara, 2000, L5, S3, W3

Santa Vitoria do Palmar
Brazil, 2003, L3, S4, W2

Santa Vitoria do Palmar
Brazil, 2003, L3, S4, W2


Lower Row

Sinawan 001
Libya, 1991, L6

DaG 650
Libya, 1999, L6, S6, W3

Polujamki  
Russia, 1971, H4

DaG 650
Libya, 1999, L6, S6, W3

NWA 
Sahara, 2000, OC


And now give us our well-deserved battle cry
and then get them,
as long they're still hot!

Truly yours,
FC Meteorite House
Hamburg - Munich

A.Gren
M.Altmann
M.Kurschat
E.V.

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[meteorite-list] FCM: AD: 33$-Thin-Section-Supersale - Update Addendum

2013-01-17 Thread Martin Altmann
Please accept out apologies
for posting a second time.

But the TSses are going so fast, although many of you are just having their
morning coffee
(btw. had we ever mentioned here, that we created some cool Henbury-mugs?),
that it became necessary to update the offer to avoid complexity
and for you easier to choose.

Hence.

From the first page ONLY LEFT are currently
(from left to the right) :

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Duennschliffe01.jpg

Upper Row:
Sulagirion Position 3
NWA 7370   Pos.5

Middle Row:
Mount Tazerzait  Pos.4
Mount Tazerzait  Pos.5

Lower Row
Palomas  Pos.1


Second page STILL AVAILABLE:

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Duennschliffe02.jpg

Upper Row:
Dhofar 631   Pos.1

Middle Row:
All

Lower Row:
Sinawan 001  Pos.1
DaG 650Pos.2
NWA   Pos.5


(With the impactites you have still a pretty full choice).

NEW! NEW! NEW!

Our coach just found in the locker room a last batch,
these are really really our last ones.
So dry the tears, there is hope!

Here again some more:

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Duennschliffe03.jpg

Some last and ultimate:
Camel Donga, Chergach, Sulagiri, Palomas, El Atchane 015-017, Mount
Tazerzait, NWA 869, Safsaf

Many thanks for your patience!


Goool!
FCM

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Re: [meteorite-list] Some Meteorite Realities and Other Interesting Meteorite Web Pages

2013-01-13 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi,

from the practice I'd like to add a most important point to the Meteorite 
Reality Checklist:

60   If an expert tells you, that your rock is no meteorite, then:
 Believe him!


:-)
Martin



Some Meteorite Realities
http://meteorites.wustl.edu/realities.htm



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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day

2013-01-04 Thread Martin Altmann
they are not native to Earth.

Ouch, Anne, cat-piano...

Does that mean a paradigm shift in the IMCA rules?

Really no offense intended,
though at least the German collectors are waiting since last August for a
definite clarification how to apply the CoE in that respect. Would be
nice...

Unobserved fall,
Please folks, don't make such a bugbear out of that, like it had happened
with the so called hammer falls!
I think, meteorites are already expensive enough

Fallen find

Skol!
Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Anne
Black
Gesendet: Samstag, 5. Januar 2013 02:28
An: h...@meteorhall.com; m...@meteoriteguy.com
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; valpar...@aol.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day

Every single meteorite ever found on Earth is necessarily the result of a
fall, they are not native to Earth. The only difference is that some falls
are seen, witnessed, and some, the vast majoriry, are not.

So calling them Observed or Unobserved falls is logical. That is what
happened to all of them.
That is simple reality.


Anne M. Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
impact...@aol.com



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[meteorite-list] AD: FCM: Come, Play with Us! Wonderful Meteorite Jigsaws Top Trumps !!

2013-01-03 Thread Martin Altmann
Dear Friends,

the FC Meteorite House had had such a really sweet idea, which will mellow
even the grumpiest cosmic codger and presents to you today for the first
time his:

Meteorite-Jigsaws!

A fun for the young, the young at heart and the old;
a fine gift, to transport your passion; also to lead the kids to meteorites;
certainly a collectible by its own;
a guarantor and a new playful way, to delve for many hours into the details
of a meteorite;
or to make it shorter:
Simply:  amorevolous and wonderful!

The first jigsaw is

Muonionalusta

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Puzzle001.jpg

Available either with 200 pieces
or - with that motif especially dodgy, promised!, - with 500 pieces!

The second jigsaw
isn't only artistic, but even philosophical, as it shows the ur-germ, the
ultimate ground of all being, therefore especially suitable for the
meteorite faddists -
a prodigious chondrule from a thin section in cross-polarized light:

Chondrule

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Puzzle002.jpg

Again we made two degrees of difficulty: 200 and 500 pieces.


Topped off the affair gets by the Gardnos-Impactite-Jigsaw,
an excellent method, to point to oneself up the nature of brecciation,
which isn't however only valid down here on Earth, but on the minor planets,
the terrestrial planets and the asteroids - and therefore with the
meteorites - too.

Gardnos Impactite

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Puzzle003.jpg

Of course available with 200 pieces and with 500 pieces too.


The prices for these wonderfine jigsaws are:

29.50$  for the 200-pieces-jigsaws

38.50$  for the 500-pieces-jigsaws.

postage for 1 jigsaw is ca. 4.50$  and for up to three 9$
(btw. a good opportunity to order with them the meteoritic ballpoint pen set
at $16.50 to save shipping costs).

Perhaps a remark,
Especially if the jigsaws are meant as gifts for kids - 200 pieces sounds in
the first instance not so much, but is with these motifs already quite
tricky;
500 pieces are rather something for the Jigsaw-Masters (especially in the
most prestigious challenge - solving it without using the image on the box -
you'll need days!).


The second part of our pleasurable advertisement regards 
the meanwhile famous top trumps:  

Meteorite Super Trump

Long ago already they became true classics in the European meteorite scene.
Whoever takes pride in himself as meteorite collector, had grasped one or
several of these decks of cards at the Munich or the Ensisheim fair.
(remember the photos of those always reporting from these events, where you
can find known and unknown faces avidly playing these cards).

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Quartett_3.jpg

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Quartett_4.jpg

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Quartett_5.jpg

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Quartett_7.jpg


Unfortunately the Meteorite Super Trump was edited in a very limited number
and rapidly sold out.

Fortunately the FCM owns still a few remainders, therefore: Who missed out
then, is lucky and can still jump on his copy rright now
at - a matter of course - the same price like the had cost at that time.

The Meteorite Super Trump

Was issued in two qualities.

- the Player's Edition

Printed on professional Las Vegas deck cardboard 
(the one with opaque barrier sheet, to avoid any kibitzing).
Hence so to say, that's the everyday version, which you use,
when the crotchety hunters on the backseats start to grouch, when finally
will we have arrived in the strewnfield??

That edition is prized at 17$   (currently only 2 left).

And the more luxurious

- Dealer's Premium edition

Printed on a little thicker cardboard with a minimally larger font, it is
even more sturdy 
and therefore used in the dimly lit back rooms of the Kasbahs, where the
sinister obscurantists of the World Meteorite Collectors Black Market gamble
for real lunars and Martians until the white thread becomes distinct from
the black thread, drinking themselves with mint tea into diabetes (says the
NYT). ..
... which is also perfect for display, picture framed or as 
placeholders in the meteorite cabinet, until the FCM will have organized the
respective meteorite for you.

That nobler edition costs 25$   (19 left in stock).


And finally a combo, the Player's edition for the daily use, the Dealer's
Premium as an exhibit for the showcase,
Is together:   40$


Hence,
for these wonderful ideas we ask firstly for your applause 
and a Mexican wave the whole stadium through,

before you secondly bring these lovely games into your homes,

where to is now sending cordial greetings

The FC Meteorite House
Hamburg - Munich
A.Gren, M.Altmann, M.Kurschat, E. V.





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Re: [meteorite-list] T-shirt (and French Fall)

2013-01-03 Thread Martin Altmann
Had we these Poyets already?

Kool:

Fig 1.
http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lookandlearn-preview/XM/XM10/XM10012/XM100
12377.jpg


Fig 2.
http://imagecache5d.allposters.com/watermarker/17-1738-8CY3D00Z.jpg

???
Martin



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Re: [meteorite-list] T-shirt (and French Fall)

2013-01-03 Thread Martin Altmann
Oh, Poyet, Poyet

That is nothing for Anne  Matthias:

It's called:  Variations on a catatonic scale.

http://kuerzer.de/OjehPoyet

Meow
Martin

 

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Martin
Altmann
Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Januar 2013 03:12
An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] T-shirt (and French Fall)

Had we these Poyets already?

Kool:

Fig 1.
http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lookandlearn-preview/XM/XM10/XM10012/XM100
12377.jpg


Fig 2.
http://imagecache5d.allposters.com/watermarker/17-1738-8CY3D00Z.jpg

???
Martin



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Re: [meteorite-list] T-shirt (and French Fall)

2013-01-02 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Bernd, all...

Not to slow the enthusiasm,
but if you know the iconography of 19th popular astronomy books,
it is quite unlikely, that that engraving depicts a real fall, or even an
eyewitness impression, as we are used to know from e.g. the Sikhote-Alin,
Hraschina or Boguslavka paintings.

Take the by far most popular illustrated astronomy book in French of that
period,
the Astronomie populaire by Camille Flammarion, the Carl Sagan of the 19.th
century.

Therein you'll find e.g. an engraving, (btw. of a much higher artistic
value, than that one)
of a known fall in India.
Very pittoresque, with frightened Indians with huge turbans jumping away
from the incoming fireball, with romantic Taj-Mahal-like temples in the
background of the scenery.

So, such engravings are often free captions of the artists, a translation
of reports into images.

Well, seen the time,
maybe the event inspiring Poyet could have been Alfianello,
the stone-fall, which caused the broadest stir in the newspapers at those
times.

Only a guess.
Best,
Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Bernd V.
Pauli
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. Januar 2013 22:26
An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: [meteorite-list] T-shirt (and French Fall)

Hello List,

I wrote:

St. Caprais-de-Quinsac...Gironde (France) Fell 1883, Jan 28, 14:45 hrs

Sounds good, looks good, ... but:

Have a close look at the date of the fall: Jan 28 !!!

Now, when you compare this with Mike B.'s remarks:

One will note that there are many farmers about  and the horse is saddled
with the hay carriage.

The only conclusion we can thus draw is that the scene depicts an
(imaginary?) event in late summer during the harvest season, probably
August.

Another possibility might be that Poyet so-to-speak merged
two incidents: the fall of the St. Caprais-de-Quinsac meteorite and the
harvest scene.

A case of ... artistic license?

Bernd


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[meteorite-list] AD: FC Meteorite House presents: The Fabulous Thomson Structure Ballpen Set !

2012-12-31 Thread Martin Altmann
Dear Community,

in these magic hours between the years it is the right moment for the FC
Meteorite House*
to light the newest banger from the freshly opened Club shop:

The Fabulous Thomson Structure Ballpen Set!

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Stifte_01.jpg

Three ballpens (black paint) decorated with three wonderful designs showing
three different forms of Thomson Structures, named after Alois Beckh von
Widmanstaetten, of three more or less classic iron meteorites.


From left to right and from finest to coarser:

http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Stifte_02.jpg


NWA 7335,
The fractal iron, showing in principle a structure of a medium
octahedrite, but inscribed in the fields are plessitic spindles repeating
that pattern on a miniature scale.
Got the classification of an ungrouped, plessitic octahedrite.

Gibeon,
Not only for a century THE iron meteorite par excellence, but also the king
of all finest octahedrites.

Henbury
The classical medium octahedrite, here with especially many Neumann lines.


The price of the whole set is USD 16.50 (+ lowest available shipping rate).

And now we all know, with what for a pen we will in future fill out our
collection labels 
and will sign our greetings,

which read today:


Happy New Year!

from
FC Meteorite House.

M.Altmann   (Head)
A.Gren  (Head of Head)
M.Kurschat  (Head of the Heads)


*to be explained soon in the new year


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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

2012-12-03 Thread Martin Altmann
 belonged to the
American public and probably should have gone to a museum, was
instead...well, it's gone.  I hope you enjoy the photos.  The finder wasn't
wrong to do that -- it was entirely his prerogative.  He owned it.  But I
believe that these new laws may be partly intended to keep such things from
happening.

Whether you see that as good or bad depends on your values, but I'd like to
share my own.

Would that meteorite ever have been found without the private sector?
None of us can say, but it does seem unlikely that it would have happened in
the near future.  But we do know one thing for sure -- that monolithic
meteorite is *gone,* and you can be certain that it's not coming back.
Ultimately, the specimen was a source of income for a meteorite hunter, and
the sum of what we have to show for it now is a bunch of slices scattered
around the world -- that I can't tell apart from Seymchan.

--

Most of the large American meteorites discovered on public and private land
in the past few decades (that have surfaced) have been cut and no longer
exist.  They were cut for profit.  There's a very long list.

I like to think that there's a reason we really appreciate the Smithsonian
and AMNH to see large rocks.  We enjoy seeing photo albums from various
museums' collections on Facebook.  Big rocks from outer space are great for
outreach and education.  And they're intact, so if anyone ever wants to do
research on them in any way, shape, or form in the future, they're available
for that.

We're the reason that so few of these rocks are being preserved, despite the
fact that we admire them.  Isn't it odd?

The only reason that I feel I might oppose these new regulations now is
because there's the chance that if they're passed, they *could* be made more
stringent in the future.  However, since the current wording doesn't affect
me, I don't mind it.

All of this adamant nay-saying seems a bit much.

Jason



 From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
 Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 4:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Hi Fred,

 Artifact would imply that your legislative authorities do believe in 
 the existence of highly developed aliens somewhere between Mars and
Jupiter.
 Maybe we can make here on the list a little collection to donate some 
 more modern books than those of Percival Lowell to the Library of 
 Congress, that this assumption has turned out to be unlikely.

 Uh coffee was perhaps a bad example - the prices for gasoline, energy, 
 housing, meat will bring you immediately back!

 Can I sign too as non-citizen?

 Good night,
 (have to take my pills, was too talkative...) Martin



 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: h...@meteorhall.com [mailto:h...@meteorhall.com]
 Gesendet: Montag, 3. Dezember 2012 00:32
 An: Martin Altmann
 Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

 Martin, is coffee a total cost of $7 per pound or are the taxes $7 per
 pound? If it is ONLY $7 per pound total cost, being a coffee drinker, I
may
 consider moving to Germany, as we pay $9 to $11 per 12 ounces, plus sales
 tax, in most States of the USA!
 A meteorite should not be considered an artifact unless it is found
in
 a Native American site or early American site. They are rocks, 99%+ never
 used by early man. Glorious rocks, but rocks none the less. If you find a
 rock on BLM land, other then petrified wood or fossils, you can haul it
away
 even if it weighs 499 pounds. The petrified wood limit is 250 pounds per
 year per person.
 As for rocks, no permit is needed on BLM land UNLESS you want to mine for
 minerals. Picking up a rock, by hand, on the surface is not mining.
 Sign me up to end this new ruling by our lord and master, the BLM.
 Fred Hall



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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

2012-12-03 Thread Martin Altmann
 from Seymchan.

 --

 Most of the large American meteorites discovered on public and 
 private land in the past few decades (that have surfaced) have been 
 cut and no longer exist.  They were cut for profit.  There's a very long
list.

 I like to think that there's a reason we really appreciate the 
 Smithsonian and AMNH to see large rocks.  We enjoy seeing photo 
 albums from various museums' collections on Facebook.  Big rocks from 
 outer space are great for outreach and education.  And they're 
 intact, so if anyone ever wants to do research on them in any way, 
 shape, or form in the future, they're available for that.

 We're the reason that so few of these rocks are being preserved, 
 despite the fact that we admire them.  Isn't it odd?

 The only reason that I feel I might oppose these new regulations now 
 is because there's the chance that if they're passed, they *could* be 
 made more stringent in the future.  However, since the current 
 wording doesn't affect me, I don't mind it.

 All of this adamant nay-saying seems a bit much.

 Jason



 From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
 Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 4:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Hi Fred,

 Artifact would imply that your legislative authorities do believe 
 in the existence of highly developed aliens somewhere between Mars and
Jupiter.
 Maybe we can make here on the list a little collection to donate 
 some more modern books than those of Percival Lowell to the Library 
 of Congress, that this assumption has turned out to be unlikely.

 Uh coffee was perhaps a bad example - the prices for gasoline, 
 energy, housing, meat will bring you immediately back!

 Can I sign too as non-citizen?

 Good night,
 (have to take my pills, was too talkative...) Martin



 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: h...@meteorhall.com [mailto:h...@meteorhall.com]
 Gesendet: Montag, 3. Dezember 2012 00:32
 An: Martin Altmann
 Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

 Martin, is coffee a total cost of $7 per pound or are the taxes $7 per
 pound? If it is ONLY $7 per pound total cost, being a coffee drinker, I
may
 consider moving to Germany, as we pay $9 to $11 per 12 ounces, plus
sales
 tax, in most States of the USA!
 A meteorite should not be considered an artifact unless it is
found in
 a Native American site or early American site. They are rocks, 99%+
never
 used by early man. Glorious rocks, but rocks none the less. If you find
a
 rock on BLM land, other then petrified wood or fossils, you can haul it
away
 even if it weighs 499 pounds. The petrified wood limit is 250 pounds per
 year per person.
 As for rocks, no permit is needed on BLM land UNLESS you want to mine
for
 minerals. Picking up a rock, by hand, on the surface is not mining.
 Sign me up to end this new ruling by our lord and master, the BLM.
 Fred Hall



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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy (Thar she blows!)

2012-12-03 Thread Martin Altmann
Yep, were hard times then,
so they were for meteorite hunters.

Here Mike you see Tashtego, Starbuck, Captain Ahab and Ishmael hunting the
White meteorite.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1271/995914327_613befae01.jpg

Watch out, what will happen!
Here, Rob L. found that horrible testimony... be aware, that is really
nothing for children-eyes:

http://kuerzer.de/ahabmassacre

The beast has bitten off Ahab's feet!!


Back to legality..

The ownership can lead also to problematic juristic consequences.

Liability.


With Tunguska we had luck, arriving just a few hours later or earlier... and
that was a relatively small impact, like it can happen all the time.

Follow me... what would be the consequence, if something like Vredefort will
happen today?
South Africa would be pretty much swept from the map.
Legally the Republic of South Africa is the owner of the impactor.
Does the Republic have then to pay for the devastations it made?
So not only physically, but also economically and for all times the Rep. of
South Africa would be pulverized.

Less dramatic:

A Peekskill car in Western Australia - do I get a new car from the state?

A Lorton house in Denmark, who pays the repair of the roof?

My dead Llama on BML land, sniff...?

Questions.
Martin


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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

2012-12-02 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi there Nick,

But note what Schmitt has written on page B6, paragraph 3:
Most Western European countries... have civil codes laying down principles
of law under which meteorites are owned by the landowner as long as they
have acceded to the land.

An astonishing statement.
As much as I investigated laws, in all the years I was able to find so far
only 3 (three) European laws, explicitly giving meteorites in their
wordings.

Denmark (where the museum has to decide, whether it is a Dannekrae - in
that case the finder gets a reward (in practice the museum is buying the
stone from the finder). Else he can keep it. And the question of the
landowner is not mentioned.)

Poland (came later than Schmidt. No ownership questions. Meteorites
(national and international) ones need an export permit).

Slovakia (finder has to announce it to the local environment agency and gets
a title as finder. If he then doesn't hear for (would have to look up again)
more than 3 months nothing again from that office, he is the owner. Else he
gets a reward of 10% of the market value).

As stated here so often, also the piece of information Schmitt gave about
Switzerland and New Zealand is incorrect, and the piece of information about
India doubtful (if you read the Indian constitution still in place and
certainly over-ruling administrative orders from the colonial times).

All in all I came to the conclusion, that Schmitt hasn't read most of the
laws (if he gives the §§) at all, neither he investigated the reports, he
received from third parties (obviously legal laypeople), whether they are
wrong or true.

Meteorites are a too rare and exotic thing, that they would enter written
law in Western Europe countries.
The question mainly is, what for a res a meteorite is legally, in which
drawers you can sort them, the individual laws of each country allow.

If I reckon meteorites among narcotics or to explosives, then certainly
there are certain restrictions.
Nothing else makes Schmitt.
Btw. his far-fetched interpretation of the UN-convention of 1970, if you use
exactly the same method of generous ellipsis in quoting, like Schmitt did,
You'll find, that e.g. bananas are protected moveable cultural heritage.

Additional, thanks god, in all countries here in Western Europe in case a
court has to decide, what for an object a meteorite is in meaning of the
national law, and not Mr.Schmitt.

Well, if I as a complete and brute layman am able to a) find the individual
laws and b) to read and to understand them, then I dare to say, that
Schmitt's work is bs. (pardon me).


What relevance is Schmitt's Canadian opinion

Not Schmitt, but google is the enemy.
Unfortunately the first hits delivered for a query for laws and meteorites
lead directly to Schmitt's bad paper. (Even more unfortunately, that it was
published (and even more and more unfortunately not peer-reviewed) in the
official organ of the meteoritical society, MAPS.)


So whenever a journalist seeks a story around a new fall,
he will read Schmitt's paper.
So unwantedly Schmitt is the reason, that some of my neighbours could look
at me like a member of a drug or weapon dealers cartel, because some lousy
clowns in NYT or BBC, as it happened,
jumped from Schmitt's stuff to the conclusions necessary to make a story,
where no story is.

Perhaps it's time for another scholarly article..

Good idea, but a scientist or even better a meteoricist has to write that.
Hunters, dealers and collectors are not regarded to be part of the academic
world,
their opinion therefore is not interesting and their expertise doubtful.

Best!
Martin


 

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Nicholas
Gessler, Ph.D.
Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 21:01
An: Yinan Wang; Jim Strope
Cc: meteorite central
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Wichtigkeit: Hoch

From my perspective, I think we ought not to go off half-cocked.
Apparently, that is what the BLM has done, and it has gotten no one
anywhere.

But note what Schmitt has written on page B6, paragraph 3:
Most Western European countries... have civil codes laying down principles
of law under which meteorites are owned by the landowner as long as they
have acceded to the land.  A meteorite resting on the surface is,
arguably, owned by the finder taking possession of it, subject to trespass
issues.
Read this carefully!

I think it would be worthwhile to first do a profile on Schmitt.
Solicitors present arguments and opinions, they do not conduct scientific
and sociological investigations of the subject.  Perhaps we need a societal
and cultural perspective on the issue?
Who were his 20 informants?  As an anthropologist, his investigation falls
way short of unbiased research.
What relevance is Schmitt's Canadian opinion to US Law?
Have we learned nothing in ten years?  Since then the public has become
better informed, the public 

Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy (Swaziland)

2012-12-02 Thread Martin Altmann
Btw. by far the best of the coolest meteorite laws I found in Swaziland!

Wait
it's only a little bit complicate, but let me give you a summary:

- Collecting of meteorites in National Parks is forbidden.

- The removing and exportation of a meteorite needs the permission of the
National Trust Committee.

-Remains the National Trust Committee inactive, then you can address the
Deputy Prime minister for issuing the permit. 

- Refuses the National Trust Committee the permit, then the Deputy Prime
Minister is allowed to issue the permit.

- Refuses the Deputy Prime Minister the permit, then the National Committee
is allowed to give the permit and to commend the Deputy Prime Minister to
issue it.

- Refuses the Deputy Prime Minister and the National Trust Committee as well
the permit, then you can object.

- The Deputy Prime Minister needs for that maneuver the approval of the
Ngwenyama

- The Deputy Prime Minister is entitled to purchase the meteorite, if he
wants.


(Swaziland has 1 meteorite).

;-)
Martin

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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

2012-12-02 Thread Martin Altmann
I think, you're beating the wrong ones.
These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not
so mighty, to create new laws and regulations.

Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with
meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags
were blinking through the headlines,
and no restrictions followed.

Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media,
decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced.

And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in
public?
I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the
Moon... ;-)

If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have
to be concealed,
for the fear, that there could be some administrative dabblers immediately
trying to forbid them,
I guess I, neither you wouldn't want to live in a world like that. 

Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee
(gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the
states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol,
gambling..

And be glad.
Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other
countries
(which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so as harmful
(and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his 12 wives,
he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister for possible
meteorites)
 the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1,
you got off still relatively lightly.


Best!
Martin



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam
Hupe
Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46
An: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for
meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to
attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the
lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade.  Perhaps these
entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the
very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly
attracting the wrong kind of attention.  A lot of people including these BLM
employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and
reality.  It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted
on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item.


Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could
learn something from England's treasure trove laws.  The Government there
has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them.  I think
non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping
themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they
see on TV.  They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves
to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover
Act of 2012.

Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by
thoughtless people.

Adam
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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

2012-12-02 Thread Martin Altmann
:

However, recent media attention
has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the
legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long
established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate.



- Original Message -
From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Cc: 
Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

I think, you're beating the wrong ones.
These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not
so mighty, to create new laws and regulations.

Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with
meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags
were blinking through the headlines, and no restrictions followed.

Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media,
decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced.

And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in
public?
I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the
Moon... ;-)

If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have
to be concealed, for the fear, that there could be some administrative
dabblers immediately trying to forbid them, I guess I, neither you wouldn't
want to live in a world like that. 

Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee
(gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the
states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol,
gambling..

And be glad.
Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other
countries (which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so
as harmful (and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his
12 wives, he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister
for possible
meteorites)
the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1, you got off still
relatively lightly.


Best!
Martin



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam
Hupe
Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46
An: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for
meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to
attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the
lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade.  Perhaps these
entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the
very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly
attracting the wrong kind of attention.  A lot of people including these BLM
employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and
reality.  It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted
on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item.


Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could
learn something from England's treasure trove laws.  The Government there
has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them.  I think
non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping
themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they
see on TV.  They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves
to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover
Act of 2012.

Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by
thoughtless people.

Adam
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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

2012-12-02 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Fred,

Artifact would imply that your legislative authorities do believe in the
existence of highly developed aliens somewhere between Mars and Jupiter. 
Maybe we can make here on the list a little collection to donate some more
modern books than those of Percival Lowell to the Library of Congress, that
this assumption has turned out to be unlikely.

Uh coffee was perhaps a bad example - the prices for gasoline, energy,
housing, meat will bring you immediately back!

Can I sign too as non-citizen?

Good night,
(have to take my pills, was too talkative...)
Martin 



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: h...@meteorhall.com [mailto:h...@meteorhall.com] 
Gesendet: Montag, 3. Dezember 2012 00:32
An: Martin Altmann
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

Martin, is coffee a total cost of $7 per pound or are the taxes $7 per
pound? If it is ONLY $7 per pound total cost, being a coffee drinker, I may
consider moving to Germany, as we pay $9 to $11 per 12 ounces, plus sales
tax, in most States of the USA!
A meteorite should not be considered an artifact unless it is found in
a Native American site or early American site. They are rocks, 99%+ never
used by early man. Glorious rocks, but rocks none the less. If you find a
rock on BLM land, other then petrified wood or fossils, you can haul it away
even if it weighs 499 pounds. The petrified wood limit is 250 pounds per
year per person.
As for rocks, no permit is needed on BLM land UNLESS you want to mine for
minerals. Picking up a rock, by hand, on the surface is not mining.
Sign me up to end this new ruling by our lord and master, the BLM.
Fred Hall



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Re: [meteorite-list] NASA SETI Misappropriation of Tax Payer Funds

2012-11-03 Thread Martin Altmann
Wow, Adam!!!

That sounds like a paradise to me!
Where can I get my green card?

The blimp-fun - it's a relatively cheap promoting affair, so what?

Sincerely yours,
The German income-, VAT- (for my EU-customers), business-, church-,
solidarity-, interest- --TAX-  mandatory social security  other social
receivables  compulsory chamber of commerce membership dues -PAYER

Martin



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam
Hupe
Gesendet: Freitag, 2. November 2012 22:05
An: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA SETI Misappropriation of Tax Payer Funds

Yes, our tax burden is at record levels. 28% collectable capitol gains plus
15% FICA plus multiple fees(taxes) attached to nearly everything including
the water we drink; What an outrage!  Remember this when you bid on
meteorites on eBay. Since they are collectables like gold, silver and
platinum, the seller is being taxed at the highest possible capital gains
tax rate which is expected to go up depending on who is elected. 


Who says the middle class isn't being squeezed harder than ever before?  To
see our hard earned money wasted on frivolous pursuits like blimp rides
under the name of science beyond ridiculous.

Some of my thoughts as unlisted private home and cell phones are ringing off
the hook incessantly with political robocalls trying to get my vote. 


Adam




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[meteorite-list] Library III - Historic Books Articles on special topics

2012-10-23 Thread Martin Altmann
Voilá,

for those afficionados, who're collecting items to combine shipment, not
having to wait so long,
here already the next list of offers. 
Some true benchmark publications among them.
Note btw. that at the modern online-article-services you have to pay often
more for new scientific papers than these historical ones are now offered.

Much success! (Last part will follow in a few hours)
Martin


35a) RAMMELSBERG

C.Rammelsberg:
Die chemische Natur der Meteoriten.
Zweite Abtheilung.
Abhandlungen der Königl. Akademie der Wissenschaften, Berlin 1879

64 pages. Lexicon-octavo.
Condition:  Mint!

Content:

Meteoreisen
Pallasit
Chondrit
Chladnit
Shalkit
Anhang zum Eukrit (Shergotty)
Howardit
Kohlenstoff in Meteoriten
Neue Mineralien der Meteoriten
Uebersicht der isomorphen Mischungen der meteoritischen Olivin- und
Augitsubstanz
Verzeichniß solcher Meteoriten, deren erneute Untersuchung wünschenswerth
ist
Tabelle I. Zusammensetzung der Meteoreisen
Tabelle II. Zusammensetzung des Rückstandes (Schreibersits)
Tabelle III. Zusammensetzung der Chondrite
Tabelle IV. Zusammensetzung der Silikate der Chondrite
Tabelle V. Verhältniß des zersetzbaren Theils A und des unzersetzbaren B
Tabelle VI. Zusammensetzung des zersetzbaren Theils (A) der Silikate
Tabelle VII. Zusammensetzung des unzersetzbaren Theils (B) der Silikate
Nachträge

(Carl Frierich Rammelsberg:
http://kuerzer.de/Rammelsberg )

70$


35b) like 35a)
Condition:  near mint.

60$


36) RINNE

F.Rinne:
Kugelrunde Eiskrystalle und Chondren von Meteoriten.
Separate print from Neue Jahrbuch für Mineralogie, Vol.1, 1897

3 pages. University Greifswald stamp on front.
Condition: fine - good.

(Friedrich Rinne:  http://kuerzer.de/FRinne )

5$


37) TASSIN

W.Tassin:
On Meteoritic Chromits.
From Proceedings of the U.S. National Museum, Vol.34, N°1628, Washington
1908.

6 pages. Good - Very good.

10$


38) WATSON

F.G.Watson:
Reflectivity and Color of Meteorites.
Print from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, Vol.24, N°12,
1938.

Cover. Harvard Reprint 155 stamp on first page.
6 pages. Contains 8 spectral-reflectance curves, 1 diagram.
Condition: good.

15$

39) HENDERSON

E.P.Henderson:
Meteorites and their Metallic Constituents.
Separate Print from the Smithsonian Annual Report, Washington 1943

14 pages + 6 full-page tables, showing views of entire Freda and Tulia,
etched slices of Bennett County, Negrillo, Grand Rapids, El Burro, Sandia
Mountains, Reed City
And micrographs of Tennasilm, Sharps, Shallowater, Nordheim, Hoba, Iquique,
Tlacotepec.

Condition: very good.

25$


40) MASON I.

Brian Mason:
The Classification of Chondritic Meteorites.
American Museum Novitates N°2085, New York 1962.

20 pages. Near mint.

25$


41) MASON II.

Brian Mason:
The Hypersthene Achondrites.
American Museum Novitates N°2155, New York 1963.

15 pages. 1 photomicrograph. Very good.

20$


42) MASON III.

Brian Mason:
The Chemical Composition of Olivine-Bronzite and Olivine-Hypersthene
Chondrites.
American Museum Novitates N°2223, New York 1965.

38 pages. Multnomah library stamp on front. Mint.

40$

ALL 3 MASONS:   75$


43) MOORE

C.B.Moore, C.F.Lewis:
The Distribution of Total Carbon Content in Enstatite Chondrites.
Print from Earth and Planetary Science Letters 1, Amsterdam 1966.

4 pages. Good.

5$


44) ROWE

M.W.Rowe: Xenomalies.
Nininger Meteorite Award Paper
Center for Meteorite Studies, ASU, Publication N°4, Tempe 1967

48 pages, Softcover. Mint.
(It's about Xenon anomalies in meteorites).

43$


45) BUSECK

P.R.Buseck, J.J.Goldstein:
Olivine Compositions and Cooling Rates of Pallasitic Meteorites.
Geological Society of America Bulletin Vol.80, 1969

20 pages. 2 full-page plates: cut surface of OLLAGUE, 2 micrographs of
Imilac.
Very good.

25$


46) MUELLER

R.F.Mueller, E.J.Olsen:
Mineral Assemblages and the Chemical History of Chondritic Meteorites.
Fildiana - Geology Vol.16, N°15, Chicago 1969.

34 pages. Stamp of Rijks Geologisch Dienst Heerlen on front.
Mint.

28$






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Re: [meteorite-list] Library III - Historic Books Articles on special topics

2012-10-23 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Adam,

I had this whole year exactly 2 (two) ads.
In fact I'm since February disabled by a severe disease and unable to work.
Therefore I hadn't now the power yet, to compile the book offers in one
single ad.
I hope, most won't mind - enjoying the offers, as there are many absolutely
unobtainable works offered among them and that at astonishingly low
ballpark prices.
All others I've to ask - for once - for their patience, to forgive a
long-term list-member and to use their finger 3 times more to hit the delete
key.

Many thanks for the understanding.
Martin





What ever happened to the one ad per week rule?  It seems there are a few
who disrespecting those who follow the courtesy rules!






From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 9:58 AM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Library III - Historic Books  Articles on special
topics

Voilá,

for those afficionados, who're collecting items to combine shipment, not
having to wait so long, here already the next list of offers. 
Some true benchmark publications among them.
Note btw. that at the modern online-article-services you have to pay often
more for new scientific papers than these historical ones are now offered.

Much success! (Last part will follow in a few hours) Martin


35a) RAMMELSBERG

C.Rammelsberg:
Die chemische Natur der Meteoriten.
Zweite Abtheilung.
Abhandlungen der Königl. Akademie der Wissenschaften, Berlin 1879

64 pages. Lexicon-octavo.
Condition:  Mint!

Content:

Meteoreisen
Pallasit
Chondrit
Chladnit
Shalkit
Anhang zum Eukrit (Shergotty)
Howardit
Kohlenstoff in Meteoriten
Neue Mineralien der Meteoriten
Uebersicht der isomorphen Mischungen der meteoritischen Olivin- und
Augitsubstanz Verzeichniß solcher Meteoriten, deren erneute Untersuchung
wünschenswerth ist Tabelle I. Zusammensetzung der Meteoreisen Tabelle II.
Zusammensetzung des Rückstandes (Schreibersits) Tabelle III. Zusammensetzung
der Chondrite Tabelle IV. Zusammensetzung der Silikate der Chondrite Tabelle
V. Verhältniß des zersetzbaren Theils A und des unzersetzbaren B Tabelle VI.
Zusammensetzung des zersetzbaren Theils (A) der Silikate Tabelle VII.
Zusammensetzung des unzersetzbaren Theils (B) der Silikate Nachträge

(Carl Frierich Rammelsberg:
http://kuerzer.de/Rammelsberg )

70$


35b) like 35a)
Condition:  near mint.

60$


36) RINNE

F.Rinne:
Kugelrunde Eiskrystalle und Chondren von Meteoriten.
Separate print from Neue Jahrbuch für Mineralogie, Vol.1, 1897

3 pages. University Greifswald stamp on front.
Condition: fine - good.

(Friedrich Rinne:  http://kuerzer.de/FRinne )

5$


37) TASSIN

W.Tassin:
On Meteoritic Chromits.
From Proceedings of the U.S. National Museum, Vol.34, N°1628, 
Washington
1908.

6 pages. Good - Very good.

10$


38) WATSON

F.G.Watson:
Reflectivity and Color of Meteorites.
Print from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, Vol.24, N°12,
1938.

Cover. Harvard Reprint 155 stamp on first page.
6 pages. Contains 8 spectral-reflectance curves, 1 diagram.
Condition: good.

15$

39) HENDERSON

E.P.Henderson:
Meteorites and their Metallic Constituents.
Separate Print from the Smithsonian Annual Report, Washington 1943

14 pages + 6 full-page tables, showing views of entire Freda and Tulia,
etched slices of Bennett County, Negrillo, Grand Rapids, El Burro, Sandia
Mountains, Reed City And micrographs of Tennasilm, Sharps, Shallowater,
Nordheim, Hoba, Iquique, Tlacotepec.

Condition: very good.

25$


40) MASON I.

Brian Mason:
The Classification of Chondritic Meteorites.
American Museum Novitates N°2085, New York 1962.

20 pages. Near mint.

25$


41) MASON II.

Brian Mason:
The Hypersthene Achondrites.
American Museum Novitates N°2155, New York 1963.

15 pages. 1 photomicrograph. Very good.

20$


42) MASON III.

Brian Mason:
The Chemical Composition of Olivine-Bronzite and Olivine-Hypersthene
Chondrites.
American Museum Novitates N°2223, New York 1965.

38 pages. Multnomah library stamp on front. Mint.

40$

ALL 3 MASONS:   75$


43) MOORE

C.B.Moore, C.F.Lewis:
The Distribution of Total Carbon Content in Enstatite Chondrites.
Print from Earth and Planetary Science Letters 1, Amsterdam 1966.

4 pages. Good.

5$


44) ROWE

M.W.Rowe: Xenomalies.
Nininger Meteorite Award Paper
Center for Meteorite Studies, ASU, Publication N°4, Tempe 1967

48 pages, Softcover. Mint.
(It's about Xenon anomalies in meteorites).

43$


45) BUSECK

P.R.Buseck, J.J.Goldstein:
Olivine Compositions and Cooling Rates of Pallasitic Meteorites.
Geological Society of America Bulletin Vol.80, 1969

20 pages. 2 full-page plates: cut surface of OLLAGUE, 2 micrographs of
Imilac.
Very good.

25$


46) MUELLER

R.F.Mueller, E.J.Olsen:
Mineral Assemblages and the Chemical History of Chondritic Meteorites.
Fildiana - Geology Vol.16, N°15, Chicago 1969.

34 pages. Stamp of Rijks Geologisch Dienst Heerlen on front.
Mint.

28

[meteorite-list] AD: Library IV (and last) - Historic Impactica, Bolidica, Meteoritic Miscellana

2012-10-23 Thread Martin Altmann
...and finally the last delivery of the antiquarian sale.

All items will be shipped from Monday on after the Munich Show.

Thank you for participating  patience,

All the Best!
Martin


General:

47) NORDSTROEM

T.Nordstroem:
Om Meteoriter.
Laesning foer Folket N°43, 1871

18 pages. Good.

15$


48) KRECKE

F.W.Krecke:
De Meteoorsteenen.
Print oft he Album der Natuur, 1883

46 pages. 9 engravings (Juvinas, Orgueil, Sierra de Chaco, Caille, Carthago,
Krasnojarsk, Uden, Blauwkapel).
Several stamps of the university Delft. Enclosed library catalogue card.
Few pages a little loose, but a very good copy.

35$


49) SCHWINNER

R.Schwinner:
Meteoriten und Geologie.
Separate print from Gerlands Beiträge zur Geophysik, Vol.16, Leipzig 1927

28 pages. Delft university library stamp on front.
(Lots of formulas to calculate impacts). Inside two contemporary handwritten
sheets in English and Dutch (looks like a student hat to held a lesson about
tektites).
Good.

20$


Collections:

50) ESCHER

B.G.Escher:
Korte Handleiding ten Gebruike bij de Bestudeering der Meteoriten
in der Verzameling Algemeene Geologie van het Geol.-Mineralogisch Museum
der Technische Hoogeschool de Delft.
Delft 1913.

27 pages. 3 figures in text. Delft university stamp on cover.
Mint.

(Remark: it is a guide for visitors of the museum. General explaining
meteorites and the exhibits/meteorites they should parallel look at, are
given on the margin. Nice.)

28$


51) HENDERSON

E.P.Henderson: 
American Meteorites and the National Collection.
Separate print from Annual Report Smithsonian Institution. Washington 1948.

18 pages. 6 full-page plates showing Pima County, Allegan, Exhibit of the
U.S. National Museum (with Drum Mountains, Canyon Diablo, Owens Valley),
Sardis, Bennett County, Aggie Creek, Edmonton, Wiley, Mt.Vernon and
microscopic views of Roy, Elm Creek, Tennasilm, Moore County.

Very good to mint.

19$


Impact structures:


52) MALBAIE

P.B.Robertson:
La Malbaie Structure, Quebec - A Paleozoic Meteorite Impact Site.
Contributions from the Dominion Observatory N°249, Ottawa 1968

24 pages. Many photos and maps. 
Very good.

22$


53) HOLLEFORD

P.Andrieux, J.F.Clark:
Application des méthodes électriques de prospection à l'étude du cratère
d'Holleford.
Contributions from the Dominion Observatory N°252, Ottawa 1969

14 pages. Cover lost. Various photos, maps, diagrams.
Fine.

14$


Meteors  Fireballs:

54) Hoffmeister

C.Hoffmeister:
Über Meteorbachtungen.
16 pages. Some figures in text.
Issue oft he Naturwissenschaftliche Wochenschrift. Naumburg March 3, 1918.
Larger format. (Some nice art nouveau advertizings inside of cover).
Very good.

16$


55) Fireball

F.Watson Jr :
The Detonating Fireball of May 26, 1935.
Print from Popular Astronomy, Vol.44, N°3, Harvard Reprint 120, 1936.

4 pages. 1 sketch in text. Harvard reprint stamp on cover and 1st page.
Very good.

10$



 FINIS







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[meteorite-list] AD: Library II - Monographs on other falls finds.

2012-10-22 Thread Martin Altmann
Dear bookworms,

Here already the next bundle of historic meteorite literature on single
finds and falls.
Again many first publication about the respective meteorite among them.

(From yesterday still available are:

2) ANNAHEIM
3) BEAVER CREEK
4) BLITHFIELD
6b) CULLISON
12b) PERSIMMON CREEK )

Enjoy!
(and my apologies for being sometimes slow - am still ill.)

Martin




Europe:

17) AARHUS

A.V.Nielsen:
The Path and Orbit of the Aarhus Meteorites.
Meddelelser fra Ole Roemer-Observatoriet i Aarhus, N°23, 1953.

No cover, 30 pages. Various diagrams. 5 pictures of smoke trail.
Good condition.

30$


18) AARHUS

Callisen, Pauly:
The Aarhus Meteorites.
Matematisk-fysike Meddelelser, Kongelige Danske Videnskabernes Selskab,
Vol.34, N°1, 1963

36 pages, incl. 4 full-page plates  13 photos in text. Cover.
Very good condition.

35$


19) LUNDSGARD

O.Nordenskjoeld:
Kemisk undersökning af meteoriten fran OEstra Ljungby i Skane.
Seperate print from Geol.Förhandl. N° 138, Vol.5, Stockholm 1891.

8 pages. Stamp of univ. Upsala on cover. Near mint.

22$


20)  MADRID

S.B.Mirat:
Analisis Quimico de una de las Piedras Meteóriticas que cayeron en Madrid
del Bólido del 10 Febrero de 1896.
Separate print from the journal La Naturaleza, Madrid 1869

36 pages, University of Greifswald stamp on cover. 1 image in text.
With handwritten personal dedication of the author to Emil Cohen.
Very good condition.

80$


21) ORGUEIL

K.Bostroem, K.Fredriksson:
Surface Conditions of the Orgueil Parent Body as indicated by Mineral
Composition.
Smithsonian Miscellaneous Collections Vol. 151, N°3. Publication 4467.
Washington 1966

40 pages + Appendix 9 full-pages pictures and 5 pages diagrams.
Stamp geolog. Bureau Heerlen on cover. Pages still unopened.
Very good condition.

40$


22) OVIFAK  (pseudometeorite)

Th.Nordstroem:
Kemisk undersoekning af Meteorjern vran Ovifak pa Groenland.
Öfversigt af Kongl. Vetenskaps-Akademiens Foerhandlingar N°4, Stockholm
1870.
10 pages, loose sheets. No cover. Stamp of the Upsala university on 1st
page. Clean.

(Remark: The natural iron from Disko island was thought to be meteoritic
firstly.)

10$


Australia

23) Suite of articles of A.Liversidge
From the Journal and Proceedings of the Royal Society of New South Wales,
Vol.16. Sydney 1882.

BARRATTA
The Deniliquin or Barratta Meteorite.

BINGERA
On the Bingera Meteorite, New South Wales.

+ 2 mineralogical articles:
On the Chemical Composition of certain Rocks, New South Wales, c.
Rocks from New Britain and New Ireland.

60 pages. Pages loose. Two full-page plates of the Barratta mass. 1
full-page plate of Bingera from all sides (all three to be framed for Jeff's
office..), 2 full-page plate of micro-photos of rocks.

Condition: o.k. But plates are clean.

25$


24) CAROLINE

F.L.Stillwell:
The Caroline Stony Meteorite.
Separate print from Memoires of the National Museum, Melbourne 1941.

10 pages. 1 Full-page table with a view of the mass and 4 microscopic
images.
Light foxing of upper edge.
University of Melbourne stamp:  Separate Publication 236 
and University of Delft (?) stamp
on cover.
Large 4°
Good condition.

20$


South America:

25) BENDEGO

O.A.Derby:
Edtudo sobre o Meteorito de Bendegó.
Separate print from Archivos do Museu Nacional do Rio de Janeiro. Rio de
Janeiro 1896.

Text in Portuguese and English.
Folio(!). 98 pages. 26 images and engravings.
Stamp of univ. Delft(?) 
and handwritten dedication (with a little text loss) of the author
on cover.

Good.

110$


Asia:

26) CHAINPUR

K.Keil, B.Mason, H.B.Wiik:
The Chainpur Meteorite
American Museum Novitates N°2173, New York 1964

28 Pages. 1 photmicrograph, various diagrams.
Multnomah County Library stamp on front.
Very good copy.

18$


27) GOALPARA

N.Teclu:
Chemische Untersuchung des Meteoriten von Goalpara in Assam (Indien).
Sitzungsberichter der kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Vol.62,
Vienna 1870.

3 pages. University Greifswald stamp on front.
Condition: O.k.

5$


28) NGAWI

E.H.v.Baumhauer:
Over den op 3 October 1883 te Ngawi in Midden-Java gevallen Meteorit.
Separate print from Mededeelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van
Wetenschappen, Amsterdam 1884

18 pages + 2 full-pages with views oft he meteorite, cross  thin section.
University Delft(?) stamp on cover.
Enclosed a flyer for a lecture of Baumhauer about the meteorite on 24th
April 1884.
Fine - good condition.

28$


29) NGAMI

Like 28) but in French.
From Archives Neerlandaises, Vol.19, 1884

Larger format than 28), therefore 12 pages text + 2 full-page plates.
University Delft(?) stamp on cover.
Back of cover loose.

Good.

32$


30) TJABE

E.H.v.Baumhauer:
Over den Meteoriet van Tjabé in Nederlandisch Indie.
Separate print from Mededeelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van
Wetenschappen, Amsterdam 1871

20 pages. University Delft(?) stamp on cover.
Very good condition.

25$


The Moon:

31) LUNA 16  20

A.Cimbálníková, K.Jurek:
Metallic Particles from LUNA 16 and LUNA 20 Regolith.
Morphological features and 

Re: [meteorite-list] A silly question about South Korean Meteorites

2012-10-05 Thread Martin Altmann
Korea isn't a white spot on the meteorite-map at all.
Look here:

http://koreamet.kopri.re.kr/

Best!
Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic
Stone  Ironworks
Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Oktober 2012 04:01
An: Meteorite List
Betreff: [meteorite-list] A silly question about South Korean Meteorites

Hi Listees,

Just a curious idle question here.  I've had sales from almost every corner
of the world.  Occasionally I get a sale from a remote place that I am
unfamiliar with and I have to Google it to see where the heck it is.  (Cook
Islands anyone?)

When it comes to Asia, I have customers in Vietnam, Japan, China, Mongolia,
the Philippines, and Taiwan.  But I have never had a sale to South Korea.
This seems odd to me, since I have several dozen Twitter followers in South
Korea, and South Korea seems like a more likely place to generate sales than
Mongolia or Vietnam.

Thinking on this, South Korea seems like a void in a meteorite world.
We hear about meteorite falls in China.  There are meteorite dealers in
Taiwan, Japan, China, and Vietnam.  But I never hear anything about
meteorites, meteorite dealing, or meteorite collecting in South Korea.

So, what's the deal with South Korea?  Is this just an anomaly for me?
 Are other dealers getting sales to South Korea?  Do I need to open a
regional Galactic Stone office in Seoul to spread the word?

Trivia : According to the Met Bulletin, there are 3 official meteorites (all
falls) from South Korea - Duwun (L6, 1943), Gyokukei (OC, 1933), and Unkoku
(OC, 1924).  Apparently there have been no meteorite finds or falls
recovered in South Korea in the last 69 years.

Best regards,

MikeG

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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM Law vs Type Sample

2012-10-02 Thread Martin Altmann
to provoke the intellectual minds..

My intellect is anyway too small for these new rules.

Wasn't it so in your country,
That until now an Irving, a Bunch, a Wasson, a Garvie and so on... and
nobody else,
determined a rock to be a meteorite?

So in any case, when you go on BLM land, in first instance you will be
always collecting rocks there and not meteorites,
Therefore these rules do not apply.

Or do BLM or FED officers in the field exist, who could tell a chondrite
apart from a terrestrial rock or who could identify an achondrite by visual
inspection?

Could be a field of job creation:   Federal Meteorite Ranger!




(Ehm...  the first US lunar will have a weight of 76 kgs. Do I have to smash
the stone in pieces, to harvest year by year the allowed weight limit?
Also it's said, that the permit fees could be calculated as a percentage of
a fair market value - WHEN will I be charged?  Do I have a chance to
organize a loan, or do I have to commit suicide, because I simply won't have
the percentage of the value of the 76kgs US-lunar at hand?
Can I invite laymen to go hunting with me, who don't need a permit, as they
aren't commercial dealers?  They could transfer ownership of the finds to me
in giving the finds as a gift to me, which would be no bartering.)

Seems a little bit callow, the whole affair.

That the permit fee is a kind of an extra-tax,
Phht...it's o.k.
Say I, greeting from a country where the taxdues quote fairly exceeds
50%.

;-)
Martin


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Greg
Hupé
Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. Oktober 2012 20:03
An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: [meteorite-list] BLM Law vs Type Sample

The more I digest all of the new and clear BLM regs concerning meteorites
and their distribution/handling, the more I wonder how that effects those
who get meteorites classified that are found on BLM land. As we know, a
scientific type sample is REQUIRED in order to get any meteorite classified
and approved by the NomCom. In a way, the type sample may be considered
'bartering' in order for the meteorite to be recognized by the meteorite
community. There are many American meteorites that are found on BLM land
that reside in museums, were they donated with a later tax write-off for the
individual finder/donator? Did the museum trade for said meteorite, if so,
that is a no-no!!

These are just a couple of quick thoughts to provoke the intellectual minds
of our scientist and museum curator friends to discuss. Since I serious
doubt any BLM main office is going to give us lowly occasional hunters the
time of day, maybe our community is better served by those professionals who
work with bureaucrats on a daily basis so our thoughts and concerns can be
addressed more clearly and not on an Internet forum such as here!

The American Meteorite Community: Between a Rock and a Hard Place...
Greg

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Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info

2012-07-20 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi,

maybe the gang can ask here, for the actual legislation in place and its
very wording,
to end the speculations?

http://www.portal.gsi.gov.in/gsiDoc/pub/dgco-contact-details.pdf

Best!
Martin



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MikeG
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Juli 2012 17:59
An: JoshuaTreeMuseum
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link
- good info

Hi Gang,

Some thoughts from the peanut gallery :

UNESCO does not apply to meteorites.

The British mandate/order in regards to Indian meteorites is over 120 years
old and India is not longer a territory of the British crown.

The late great O. Richard Norton was not a legal expert.

Laws (and more importantly, their enforcement) vary from nation to nation,
and from state to state within those nations.

Without input from a legal expert fluent in international law, we are
engaging in speculation and conjecture for the purpose of ethical posturing
and mud-slinging.

When one has a question about a law in a given state or nation, a good place
to start inquiring is with a resident of that nation or state.

Are there any members of this List or the IMCA who are residents of India?
If so, let us ask them what the laws are and go from there.

Are copies of the relevant laws or regulations available online?  If so, can
someone provide a link to these online resources?

Meteorites involve a lot of grey areas - legally and ethically.  Solid
authoritative information on these laws is sorely lacking.

Example - most of the Canyon Diablo specimens for sale are illegal.
We know this because the laws here in the USA are easily found online, in
local libraries, or by asking a local resident or official.  The entire CD
strewnfield is on private property or state of Arizona land that is leased
to private owners.  The owners or caretakers of these properties have made
it known that prospecting for CD meteorites is an exercise in trespassing
and theft.  This is easily established.  If people on this List want to
start pointing fingers and making allegations, please start in an area where
the laws (and their interpretation and enforcement) can be clearly
referenced in an objective manner.

Canadian and Australian laws in regards to meteorites are clearly known.
There is no debate there.  Ask a Canadian or Australian citizen.  On the
issue of Indian, Argentine, Algerian, or Omani meteorites, let us follow the
same example - ask a citizen of the nation in question and go from there.

The IMCA (or anyone else) cannot determine if a given meteorite specimen is
legal, unless the history of that specific specimen is documented and the
laws pertaining to that specimen are clearly known.
 An electron microprobe cannot determine *when* a meteorite was recovered.
Was a Canyon Diablo meteorite recovered before it was illegal to do so?  Who
knows?  This is a textbook definition of a grey area, and many other
meteorites from other nations fall into the same category - Campo del Cielo,
NWA 869, and a host of others.  Until such a time when the date of recovery
(and circumstances) can be objectively determined, we can only rely on the
word and reputation of the seller or owner.

What we are seeing in this public debate on legality is a lot of
speculation and posturing, without any substance or authoritative knowledge.
This mud-slinging contest is not doing the meteorite community any good - it
makes us all look like a bunch of petty blowhards.

One last comment - meteorites are a product of the cosmos.  They have
existed for billions of years before man crawled out of the primordial ooze
and they will exist for billions of years after we people turn to dust.  We
are their temporary caretakers for an eye-blink of the galactic time scale.
It is the height of arrogance for any man or nation to think they have
exclusive legal rights over a product of the cosmos.  What is a law?  It was
once legal in the USA to own another human being as a slave.  Just because
it was legal does not mean it was right.  Laws can be wrong.  Human beings
can be wrong.  As a collector or dealer of meteorites, the best thing one
can do is to follow one's conscience.  When holding a meteorite in hand, ask
yourself - is science being harmed by this action?  If not, then enjoy that
meteorite.

Best regards,

MikeG

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Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info

2012-07-19 Thread Martin Altmann
UNESCO-1970 is not a law, but it is a convention to harmonize national laws
of the signing states.

Meteorites can be protected only by national laws.
(Like e.g Namibia, Canada, Australia, South-Africa did).

That is given in the convention's text.


Schmitt's information on Argentina is outdated.

The information on New Zealand is wrong.

The information on India doubtful.

Also Switzerland has a different procedure.

(And also from hearsay - under certain circumstances it seems possible for a
finder to keep his Danekrae).


Hence,
that paper is not a reliable source.

Martin



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Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info

2012-07-19 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi,

I always think, that debates about laws are vain, as long as one has not the 
very wordings of the law at hand.
I don't have the Indian law at hand, neither I found anyone, who could show it 
to me,
even those, who echo the date from the paper 1885 seem not to have it.

I by my own found only the same words here:
Circular No.22-1777, dated 10th of July, 1869, by T.H.Thornton, Secretary to 
Government Punjab,
in continuation of circular No.13-975,  dated 28th of April 1863,
wich is, full quote of the text:
“directing, that all Indian Meteorites shall be in future transmitted to the 
Trustees of the Indian Museum.”

I have no idea, whether that had a status of a law or whether it was only a 
service regulations to the administrative officers.

Both, that one and the quote by Schmitt say nothing about ownership, export, 
compensations ect.

Then -
India became independent in 1947 and in 1950 a republic.

I'm not sure, whether the old laws from the British dominion are still in place.

If they are btw. what does that mean for meteorites from Pakistan?


Furthermore:

Hey reported in 1967 to the UNESCO Working Group on Meteorites,
that meteorites in India would be treated as bona vacantia as given in 
article 296 of the Indian constitution.

Find the article here:
http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/290059/

It says that those ownerless objects found on the territory of India, of that 
kind, which before would be accrued to the King, will be property of the state 
or federal state.

Well, I'm not sure, who is meant be the King from former time.
Was it the English King George, Emperor of India?
And if so, was then British Law in place in the colony?
Because if so, then like still today in U.K. (compare the hilarious debate in 
the House of Lords about the meteorite bill),
finds of gold and silver belong to the crown,
all other you can keep.

Questions and questions...

Answer can give only the law, which is in place today.

But nobody ever saw it :-(
Martin



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: cdtuc...@cox.net [mailto:cdtuc...@cox.net] 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. Juli 2012 19:55
An: Martin Altmann
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - 
good info

Martin,
Welcome back to posting. You have been missed. 
You said;
The information on India doubtful
This law  is spelled out very specifically and includes the words aerolites. 
How much more specific could you ask? . .
In what way do you doubt it? 
As it stands right now. Anybody with India's meteorites in their collection has 
a tainted collection. 
If this info is incorrect there are hundreds of people that would like this 
clarified. 
Please provide proof that this law is doubtful. Site references or something.
Carl
--
Cheers



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Re: [meteorite-list] Sutters Mill - mass and stone count

2012-05-02 Thread Martin Altmann
Yep Count, Sodom  Gomorrah.

No.
Old men say, benchmark won't be that fall, benchmark was already Tagish
Lake.
Had arrived then at a before totally unseen and strange price.
It happened after Tagish, that more and more observed falls were priced in a
way, which nobody believed to be possible. From Neuschwanstein to Soltmany.
Don't forget that it's - still - a regional phenomenon. Hold a Mifflin
against a Buzzard. Mainly afflicting US- and European falls. (O.k. we all
had bad luck, that that hammers-hysteria became a fashion, additionally
driving prices).
Alas, still you get the North African falls at prices, you never got any
observed stone fall throughout the 200 years lasting history of meteoritics
(with perhaps the exceptions of Alfianello, Allende, Gao-Guenie in the years
after their fall).
And old men say,
that the very most meteorites, rarest, rare and common types, - the desert
finds - are still remarkably cheaper than equivalent meteorites were in the
1990s. (Not to mention the 19th an most of the 20th century).

Kommercialization Kitty jumps every 10 years out of the bag.
(Huh, some weeks ago I read the catalogue of Partsch, giving the origins of
the specimens of the early Vienna collection. Quite all was either directly
or indirectly (swaps,donations) purchased from field, finders, dealers).
So does the popularization poodle. When did meteorites get a broader
attention? Started already in the 1980s.
And then to a huge extend in the 1990s with the new media.
Nevertheless what happened

The revolting development happened in the 1st decade of the 2000s.
Large amounts of new meteorites. Remarkable numbers of new rare finds.
Complete price crash.
Now we rather observe (of course with a few excesses) the return to
normality.

Hence no end of collecting.
Il diavolo non è brutto quanto lo si dipinge ;-)

The finds will get sparser, the collection specimens will get smaller.

Nevertheless, believe me, it prepossesses myself with zero grain of
satisfaction,
that the prediction I and others years ago were ridiculed, came so fast
true.

Well, maybe another upside...
Perhaps now meteorites in general won't be taken so much anymore for common
commodities, for home decoration or something like Swiss cheese,
but more appreciated as the rarest matter on Earth and samples of celestial
bodies, inaccessible to mankind.

Ciao,
Martin 

PS: As always I could go wrong too...

 

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Count
Deiro
Gesendet: Dienstag, 1. Mai 2012 18:36
An: Randy Korotev; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Sutters Mill - mass and stone count

Hi Listees,

Well. Now one can see the effect of the popularization of meteorites,
through their exposure in the mass media, on the general public. $4,000 a
gram for an unclassified carbonaceous chondrite! I was asked yesterday to
pay, what computed to be $3,000 a gram, for some Cali driveway crumbs. I
wouldn't legitimize them by calling them frags. And I have news for
youone of our best known johnny on the spot hunter/collectors forked
over $22,000 for a, less than 20 gram, broken piece! 

Yes, friends. You have just seen the end of an era in the collection and
valuation of meteorites. This fall will go down, as Ruben said so
presciently on national TV, as the most important fall in the history of the
United States. Why? Because never again will we be allowed, almost
unfettered access to public and private lands, nor will we be able to
purchase, even fragments, for any sane amount of money. The proverbial cat
is out of the bag. The publik will never let it be put back in again. 

But, there is an upside to this revoltin development (William Bendix - The
Life of Riley- 1952). Just think of how much our collections just increased
in value. :0)

Best to all,

Count Deiro
IMCA 3536   


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Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Updates - 2 NWA's and a Nova, and a Question regarding Nomenclature

2012-04-23 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Jeff,

should Paris then not rather have been named a Nova too than a Paris?

(From the Bulletin Database:

Paris
Unknown location
(..)

History: This sample was in an auction box lot bought by Jean-Jacques Corré
at the Hotel des Ventes in Paris. The box was part of the estate of Jean
Simon Colonna-Cimera, an Ingénieur des Mines, who supervised mines in
foreign countries and in the French Colonies. Corré thought that the stone
might be a meteorite but kept it for 7 years before attempting to have it
identified.


Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jeff
Grossman
Gesendet: Montag, 23. April 2012 13:46
An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Updates - 2 NWA's and a Nova, and
a Question regarding Nomenclature

The way it works is that meteorites are named based on how much certainty we
have about where they come from.  When we think the coordinates are
accurate, we can name them after very local features.  
For things like NWA and Sahara meteorites, we have some confidence that they
come from northwest Africa and the Sahara in general, but not much more than
that.  The hallmark of the Nova series is that we don't have any good
information about where they were found, or, in some of the early ones, we
thought that information was false.

Nova 011 simply turned up in a market in Russia.There is no accompanying
find story.  Perhaps it's from Russia, perhaps it's an NWA, who knows.  
If there was some kind of find story indicating a local origin, we might
have named it differently, perhaps South Russia or something like that.

Jeff



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Re: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteoritefalls title?????? (Stuetz)

2012-04-13 Thread Martin Altmann
Yes he did,
he tried also to find for Chladni the four of the five stones or irons of
Miskolcz, which had fallen in 1559 and which were transported to the Vienna
collection, 
but he was unable to locate them.

Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark
Grossman
Gesendet: Freitag, 13. April 2012 05:43
An: Chladnis Heirs; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteoritefalls
title?? (Stuetz)

Andreas Xavier Stütz changed his views  about meteoritic fairy tales and
lightning before he died.

See my article on the Tabor meteorite in the May 2011 issue of Meteorite
Magazine, which shows the change in his views based on the entries in the
Catalogus Stützianus, Natural History Museum, Vienna.

To my knowledge, my finding was previously unreported in the literature
until it was published in Meteorite Magazine.

Mark

Mark Grossman
Meteorite Manuscripts
www.meteoritemanuscripts.blogspot.com


- Original Message -
From: Chladnis Heirs n...@chladnis-heirs.com
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteoritefalls
title?? (Stuetz)


Hi Shawn,

the paper by Andreas Xaver Stuetz, you're looking for, was published in
Born's  Trebra's Bergbaukunde, second volume, 1790.

You have it here online:
http://kuerzer.de/shawnstuetz

Page 398 - 409.

In fact he reports there from the fall of Eichstädt, mentions the
Pallas-Iron and gives at length a report about the fall of Hraschina - with
eyewitness observations, in translating the report about the fall by
Wolfgang Kukulyewich, vicar of Agram.
Here and there he gives some ironic remarks.

Stuetz is classifying these reports as fairy tales, closing the article with
a lengthy explanation, that these stonesirons were formed by lightning.

Best!
Martin  Stefan



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn
Alan
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 12. April 2012 10:25
An: Meteorite Central
Betreff: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteorite falls
title??

Hello Listers

I am wondering if any of you history meteorite buffs by chance know the name
of Chladni's book he wrote on 18 meteorites falls and if there might be an
English pdf version floating around on the Internet or somewhere else? Also,
I was trying to look for a copy of the paper titled On Some Stones
Allegedly Fallen from the Heaven published in 1790 by Abbe Andreas Xavier
Stutz which Chladni extensively quoted from when he was writing his book.

Shawn Alan
IMCA 1633
ebay Store
http://www.ebay.com/sch/ph0t0phl0w/m.html?
http://www.meteoritefalls.com/
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Re: [meteorite-list] Man Claims Rockhaven Meteorite Find

2012-02-26 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi there,

we shouldn't forget to applaud the Canadians here.

While in former times they applied their laws in the strictest possible
manner, not using the flexibility the laws allow,
they meanwhile have profoundly changed the opus moderandi to a positive and
for the generation of new and old meteoritic finds fruitful and fair way.
Since then we observed a positive development - Buzzard Coulee, Springwater,
Whitecourt...

So I think one can say, that Canada acted exemplary, especially for these
countries still suffering - regarding the decline or stagnation of the
number of new finds or the volume of the tkws of old finds of national
meteorites - under too strict legislation.


Remark:

The Schmitt-paper, at least I wouldn't commend it, as it is tendentious and
contains central pieces of information, which were already at the time, when
it was written, wrong.

Especially the information about these countries are incorrect:

New Zealand.
Other than given there, meteorites are not defined as antiquities in the
1975/1990 acts.
And these acts apply only on meteorites found in New Zealand.
(That discrimination is important, as there exist countries, where
meteorites in general, not only those found in the country, are subject to
regulations and laws).

Switzerland.
There the finds are not owned by the cantons,
but there is the right of preemption by the canton in effect.

Denmark,
there I heard by pers.comm.
that the museum is deciding, whether an object is of unique scientific value
and whether it will take the object, giving the deliverer a
compensation/reward.
If the decision is negative, the finder can keep it and won't need any
permits for exportation neither.

India,
there I have no information,
but here on the list was reported a case, where a meteorite was saif to be
legally exported.


UNESCO 1970,
there the interpretation by Schmitt is legally not tenable.

Using the technique of distorting omissions Schmitt applies in quoting Art
1,
one could manage to give the impression that also farm products like bananas
and corn 
would be defined as moveable cultural heritage too.

But more important UNESCO 1970 is an agreement of harmonizing national
legislation between states and does not apply to individual legal persons.

A ratification of the convention by a country and/or the building of a
national permitting agency does not set meteorites under the protection of
the convention (which by the way are not mentioned at all in the
convention's text).
Only if meteorites are explicitly added to the individual national list of
moveable heritage, which each ratifying country is obligated to set up, then
they become subject to the UNESCO convention.

Only a very few single countries of those, which have ratified the
convention, did so. E.g. Australia and South Africa.

So all in all, Chris, if already half of the essential core information of
the paper had been proven wrong,
I think it is not directly helpful to use it or to refer to it. It had
caused already enough misunderstandings, especially the short form, the
abstract of that paper, which was often referred to in media  press in
past,
when there were news about a new fall or a major find.


Best,
Martin






-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Chris
Spratt
Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Februar 2012 23:15
An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Man Claims Rockhaven Meteorite Find

I've been questioned on my last post. My self and a fellow collector 
(also a Canadian) queried about re-exporting a repatriated
Canadian meteorite and received this from Richard Herd curator of the 
National Meteorite Collection in Ottawa.


Once Canadian meteorites are repatriated, they become as they always 
were: cultural property (any mass even a nanogram) and subject to the 
Cultural Property Export and Import Act (1977); they need a permit to be 
re-exported regardless of their provenance/collection history. There has 
been debate about the so-called 35-year rule.

Chris. Spratt
Victoria, BC
Canada

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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite shipment stopped in Argentine Customs. Probably Campos

2012-02-24 Thread Martin Altmann
We are talking large money here!

Hmmm, Count, rather they talk large money...

Sales value in USA 1.4 - 3.1 million USD.   

2,395kg found...

Would make a Campo-price per kilogram 

of 

585$ - 1295$  ayyy !!!


Mike G, your turn: All sales of Campo

Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Count
Deiro
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 17:35
An: eduardo jawerbaum; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite shipment stopped in Argentine
Customs. Probably Campos


Listees,

Anybody want to guess who set this shipment up? We are talking large money
here! I expected to see a post by one of our resident inquisitors outing the
dealer involved. Is the name too big?? Illegal activity on this scale
doesn't do any of us any good.

Count Deiro
IMCA 3536  



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Re: [meteorite-list] provenance

2012-02-15 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Doug,

it was meant for fun, not for the silly discrimination which meteorites
would be better than others.

Though for an extreme purist of provenance and pedigree, those new finds
could be indeed ideal.

Cause he is then the founder of the pedigree, able to control the growth of
the meteorite's family tree, that what he is missing so often with his
historic specimens and their gaps from the day they once were picked up to
the day he put it in his showcase. 

Do you remember still the times of the Dar al Ganis?
There for the collector it was something new and something extremely
thrilling,
that you could become the owner of a complete find or a main mass and no
matter whether it was an old OC.
And that for the same reasons I tried to mention.

Because in the post-Nininger-, post-Huss-, pre-desert-era with its only 2500
meteorites + Antarctics, that was really a difficult task.

And if you remember those desert finds, they had a special prestige too,
Lucky 13, Calcalong, DaG 400, NWA 032...

That opened a new aspect and new possibilities in meteorite collecting.


Well of course it's the individual habit and taste, which particular
meteorites will make the individual collector happy.
Collecting of, in a manner of speaking - vintage meteorites - sorry for
the flat joke, all they have their 4.5 billion years - has without doubt
also very satisfying and interesting aspects.

Though I find also the idea fascinating and attractive, that - although one
needs certainly some patience - that in 40, 50 years I can say - I lived and
participated in the Golden Age of the Big Harvest, where so many of the
today so prominent (and desirable) meteorites were recovered.
Aura and patina - just some patience and they will come.

Doug, wouldn't you love to jump in the time-machine to be there, when
Shergotty was distributed, or to gather one of the first Krinov-Sikhotes -
or to the year, where the now so popular Murchisons were sent for pennies
around the globe? And I'm convinced, that they in their very beginning were
as boring for the collectors like today for the historics fan a Tamdakht or
a Bassikonou is boring.

Huh funny thought, that then in 50, 100 years they could speak about the
people we have here on the list, and it could be well possible, as we have
an inflation of communication compared to then, that the collectors will
speak about them like today about Foote or Ward and so on.

Meteorites are the oldest matter we can grasp, we are getting old...
If we allow us only a little longer interval on the time bar as a
perspective, instead to pause in the here  now,
then, I tink, these new finds could develop a very thrilling
attractiveness..

Best wishes!
Martin





PS:  That's a new one on me!  

And
 Respectfully, who made that rule?  A meteorite is born, when it is
published in the Bulletin.

The convention :-(

Unpublished meteorites tend to get forgotten with time.
And then they are just like those meteorites, which remained unfound.

Note btw. also with the known meteorites and the tkws,
especially the mass finds, that there in the end and quoted since,
were always the weights, once published and overtaken in the Bulletins
respectively in the first Catalogues.
No matter how much was found later on after the first report in literature.

Or take a more recent fall, like Lampyairie or what his name was.
Hardly anyone remembers it after 10 years, and as it wasn't recorded in the
Bulletin,
I fear in another 20 years that fall will never have existed.







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Re: [meteorite-list] provenance

2012-02-14 Thread Martin Altmann
Hmm Don  Doug,

if you have such concerns about provenance,
you could easily avoid the sorrows.

A meteorite is born, when it is published in the Bulletin.

So be the second link in the chain.

Buy NWAs from the main mass holder given in the Bulletin 
and Oman and new U.S.-desert finds from the finders listed there.
Provenance at its best.

That's the true revolution in pedigree-specimens-collecting.
Not possible to that degree for 200 years.
Be for following generations the seed leaf in the family tree of a
meteorite.

Best,
Martin


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
MexicoDoug
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2012 02:26
An: dmerc...@rochester.rr.com; countde...@earthlink.net;
jasonu...@gmail.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough

Don M wrote:

A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can 
then be brought up on the specimens validity.

Hi Don,

Have you noticed lately we are seeing a number of dealers advertising 
spectacular falls in micro for weekl on the list?  Every time I get 
excited just to see, Oh, another hammer job... not my cup of tea but 
delicious anyway.

I noticed you had some very nice sub-gram material from Rob Elliot in 
your last advertised auctions on the list.  Now, whenever someone buys 
a 3 gram specimen from poor Rob and takes the hammer to it, do we get 
included a free conversation with him that he gave a good deal on it to 
someone who then proceeded to smash it into a hundred pieces and now as 
the piece's grandpa has inherited the responsibility to take everyone 
by the hand, intelligent and not so much, to explain how the material 
was originally acquired from the BM?  In my opinion, certainly not!  
The prime sources for this material can't be responsible for every 
atomic sized piece that falls off the end of a hammer when some buyer 
gets the idea he is going to be a meteorite speck dealer.

I am not inferring you did the hammer maneuver, BTW, but even if you 
did, regardless of what I think about micros, it is a perfectly legal 
way to deal whether I like it or not and I have been tempted to bid on 
your auctions sometimes when they are larger.

There can be a fine line between overdoing provenance as a marketing 
gimmick and using it, in the context of a dozen other factors to make 
an informed purchase.  From your passion and enthusiasm, I suspect 
keeping provenance sacred is of prime importance.

However, unfortunately the authorities to be still aren't issuing 
meteorite birth certificates, although some have come frightfully close 
as of late (frightfully, I say because this new strategy completely 
excludes me as a primary customer due to the price tag attached, all 
the while kilos are stockpiled for someone's self-directed retirement 
account.  [Now, that I respect, but it strikes me as greedy - note to 
Doug: put this statement in the opinion section, you have no right to 
imply this is bad form until you, Doug, are faced with your own private 
Esquel])

I applaud your enthusiasm but do ask you to consider alternate 
situations which don't fit your concept of a meteorite passing from 
hand to hand in a neat little chain, since this is a very complicated 
can of sardines that doesn't lend itself to blanket statements.  As we 
all know a chain is as strong as its weakest link, and if someone is 
dishonest it really becomes an issue for independent scientific 
verification - because then and only then - the stone must speak.  No 
pile of papers unless photo documented in a Dewey decimal system is 
beyond a con artist's talent in this day and you must come to grips 
that sometimes asking to see the pier and stilt foundations of an old 
houseboat isn't going to happen, even while falling in love with the 
updated cabinetry in the kitchen!

The bottom line is, the buyer has the right and obligation to his own 
wallet to make his own valuation and not lose his head in a speculative 
excitement.  A set of provenance tags works in some cases, but in most 
cases it doesn't.

That was intended to be more analytical than opinionated.  Now let me 
give my opinion:

Micros should *never* be purchased for a higher $/g rate than macro 
specimens.  While I always wince when hearing how I must do something 
to guarantee the future of my children, if I could figure a way to do 
this, l would say the same thing.  Maybe that's one of the 
non-scientific reasons I am so in love with the Tatahouine meteorite.  
When you break it - it's worth less, and it is refreshing to know that 
except for a few talented slicer folk out there experimenting with 
sections, most of the large pieces will be conserved for posterity, 
always convincingly recognizable, and this, because the market 
determined value the way *I said*.  Ok, now I apologize, I understand I 
am lucky to be 

Re: [meteorite-list] Tata-Foumzgit Martian Fall. The most significant fall of this century?

2012-01-14 Thread Martin Altmann
Yep,

also the modelling by Gladman, that 5% of the ejecta from Mars will fall on
Earth, but that 50% of the rocks released from Earth/Moon will be collected
by the Earth-Moon-system again,
tells something about probabilities, but not about the absolute frequency,
how often an impact on Moon and Mars releases rocks into space.

Also the notion, that a rock blasted off from Moon will jump more or less
directly on Earth is somewhat incorrect. We have exposure ages for the
lunars, partially, where we weren't sitting in the trees yet - up to more
than a dozen millions of years, where that stuff was orbiting around the
sun.

But, folks.

Chassigny, that was Waterloo, Congress of Vienna and Beethoven still
composing symphonies - Shergotty, there you had just finished the Civil War
and Lewis published Alice in Wonderland - Nakhla, the Mexican Revolution,
Agadir-crisis, and the Titanic is launched - Zagami = the Cuban Missiles
Crises, Algerian independence war,
And the Ford Edsel was skipped!

And you, you know now for 3 weeks from the new Martian fall; after such an
eternity
- though now you're yearning for a lunar fall?

Huh. Enjoy rather the momentousness of that event, grab rather the best
individuals you can, before you have to wait again until 2062, when you'll
have the next opportunity to do so!

:-)
Martin
 


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Re: [meteorite-list] Tata-Foumzgit Martian Fall. (Why no lunar falls? and freshest lunar?)

2012-01-14 Thread Martin Altmann
Hmmm short glance on the older papers on google, tells
that Dhofar 026, NWA 032, NWA 492, and I guess also SaU 169 do have
terrestrial ages of 10 000years and less.



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Galactic Stone  Ironworks [mailto:meteoritem...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 14. Januar 2012 19:11
An: Martin Altmann
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Tata-Foumzgit Martian Fall. (Why no lunar
falls? and freshest lunar?)

Hi Doug, Martin, and List,

I know nothing of the mathematics and modeling of meteoroid impact
rates, but it strikes me as anomalous (statistically) that we don't
have any lunar falls yet.  It seems likely that there have been lunar
falls, but they were never recovered or recognized.

I agree with Martin when he says we should savor the energy that this
new fall brings, because it shouldn't happen again (statistically) for
another ~50 years.   It felt very special to hold a sample from this
fall only months after it fell to Earth.  To hold the freshest Martian
is far more exciting than to hold the freshest ordinary chondrite.
And I would think many collectors would agree, that to experience that
same thrill with a fresh lunar would be a great sequel to this Martian
event.  :)

On a related note, a question - what is the freshest lunar on record?
In terms of terrestrial age, what lunaite has the most recent fall?

Best regards,

MikeG
-- 
*

Galactic Stone  Ironworks - Meteorites  Amber (Michael Gilmer)

Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook -  http://tinyurl.com/42h79my
News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone

***


On 1/14/12, Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 Yep,

 also the modelling by Gladman, that 5% of the ejecta from Mars will fall
on
 Earth, but that 50% of the rocks released from Earth/Moon will be
collected
 by the Earth-Moon-system again,
 tells something about probabilities, but not about the absolute frequency,
 how often an impact on Moon and Mars releases rocks into space.

 Also the notion, that a rock blasted off from Moon will jump more or less
 directly on Earth is somewhat incorrect. We have exposure ages for the
 lunars, partially, where we weren't sitting in the trees yet - up to more
 than a dozen millions of years, where that stuff was orbiting around the
 sun.

 But, folks.

 Chassigny, that was Waterloo, Congress of Vienna and Beethoven still
 composing symphonies - Shergotty, there you had just finished the Civil
War
 and Lewis published Alice in Wonderland - Nakhla, the Mexican Revolution,
 Agadir-crisis, and the Titanic is launched - Zagami = the Cuban Missiles
 Crises, Algerian independence war,
 And the Ford Edsel was skipped!

 And you, you know now for 3 weeks from the new Martian fall; after such an
 eternity
 - though now you're yearning for a lunar fall?

 Huh. Enjoy rather the momentousness of that event, grab rather the best
 individuals you can, before you have to wait again until 2062, when you'll
 have the next opportunity to do so!

 :-)
 Martin



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[meteorite-list] What's going on in the background?

2012-01-09 Thread Martin Altmann
Oops!

http://www.wga.hu/art/r/raphael/5roma/1/07folig1.jpg


☺
Martin

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Re: [meteorite-list] Some interesting meteorite falls of the last two centuries

2011-11-24 Thread Martin Altmann
Hi Doug,

As far as I know, the couch was auctioned off - brought only a couple of
hundred dollars (cause da Captain was sleeping).

Btw. if talking about export laws we have urgently to clarify those of New
Zealand,
as in past I saw that even IMCA board members had commended the
SchmittMcEwans paper (The law of ownership and control of meteorites,
2001) as authoritative here on the list.

The information given there for New Zealand is (like for so many other
countries there) incorrect.

OTHER than there falsely claimed, meteorites are NOT classified in the
Antiquities Act of 1975 (and 1990) as antiquity.

EXPLICITELY the act gives, that meteorites belong into the category of
natural objects and not to the antiques.

And more important, other than you have it in that Schmitt/McEwans paper,
not all meteorites in general need an export permit, but only those, so it's
given in the 1975/1990-Act - those related to New Zealand.
(i.e. New Zealand falls and finds).

I thought that to be important to mention,
not that collectors are worried, that those meteorites Dean was shipping out
of New Zealand would have needed a permit or that he would have acted
illegally.


The Schmitt/McEwans paper contains so many mistakes and wrong information -
the disadvantage of non-peer-reviewed publications - that it can't be used
in scientific publications,
and I would ask therefore the list members not to refer to it any longer,
neither to quote it
- but rather in case, to look up the laws in case by themselves.

Best!
Martin
 


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
MexicoDoug
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. November 2011 03:30
An: impact...@aol.com; joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com;
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Some interesting meteorite falls of the last
two centuries

And what happened of the one that fell in New Zealand?


Perhaps no export permit was applied for or approved given so it may 
still be pending classification.  Who classifies meteorites in NZ, 
didn't Dean have a service arrangement with a local University?

Kindest wishes
Doug



-Original Message-
From: Impactika impact...@aol.com
To: joshuatreemuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com; meteorite-list 
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2011 8:39 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Some interesting meteorite falls of the 
last two centuries


Thank you Phil for this list.
And thank you to all of you who told me about typos and other errors, 
and
I'll fix those ASAP. But now I have a question:
Phil's list includes this Fall:  Ellerslie, June 6 2004 in Auckland, 
New
Zealand, and I remember Joel Schiff writing about it. However in the 
Met.
Bulletin, Ellerslie is listed as an L5 found in Queensland, Australia, 
in 1905.
And the only Fall listed for New Zealand is Mokoia.
So... an error???
2 Ellerslie?
And what happened of the one that fell in New Zealand?
Anyone knows
Thanks.

Anne M. Black
_http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/)
_IMPACTIKA@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com)
Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc.
_http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/)


In a message dated 11/22/2011 10:10:42 PM Mountain Standard Time,
joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com writes:
2004 06 12Ellerslie, suburban1.3-kg (2.8-lb) 7-cm x 13-cm
[19]
Auckland, N.Z. meteorite broke through roof of
house and bounced off sofa


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Re: [meteorite-list] Some interesting meteorite falls of the last two centuries

2011-11-24 Thread Martin Altmann
Little addendum,

And what happened of the one that fell in New Zealand?
Anyone knows

the Ellerslie stone was purchased by the Auckland War Memorial Museum
at then approx. 30,000USD.

http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/55/recent-acquisitions

And there it still is,
so maybe someone could ask the curator of the Nat.Hist.Section there,
why Ellerslie hasn't made it yet into the Bulletin.

Best!
Martin


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Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer???

2011-11-23 Thread Martin Altmann

Of course, Andi.

And if that happens there:
http://www.holger-melms.de/Ha06Uenden.jpg

they will celebrate a ..?

Martin

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Andreas
Gren

If a torpedo hits a hammerhead shark, is it a hammer again?


Andi


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Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer hammers!

2011-11-23 Thread Martin Altmann
The history of hammers?

Hits for hammer used for meteorites as,well, as hammers, per year of this
list:

2001   zero
20022 (Captain B. commercial)
2003   24 (mainly Park Forest  dealers)
20044 (Worden article)
2005   10 (mainly jokes about the hammers concept)
2006  103 (eeek, it went out of control!)
2007  116
2008 iiih it's too horrible to continue!


Walter, Walter, what have you done???!!!

Kids, I declare the year 2006, to be that year, when the hammer was
invented.

...and since then, we have to pay suddenly 3-10 times more for the good ol
falls afflicted
and each and every falls-addicted prays, whenever the news of a possible
fall or shower goes round, that no crumb hasn't hit anything else but the
ground, for him being able still to afford a little piece.

It started as a harmless fun and was turned into a very successful marketing
campaign.
Respect!

And we're singing: Hit the Road, Jack!

;-)
Martin

PS: The holes hysteria wasn't so everlasting.
Maybe we could combine them..
Hammers with holes, which hit holes...

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