Re: [meteorite-list] UPDATED- Kirkwood, South Africa Meteor/ite 25AUG2024 Map v.3
Ayy Dirk, There's no hope for this fine polymict HED. Unfortunately the South African government believes in meteorites being inhabited by evil spirits. Therefore, to protect citizens and state, it is strictly prohibited, not only to hunt for or to own meteorites, but even to pick them up from the ground. See National Heritage Resources Act (Act No. 25 of 1999) section 35(4) What a pity! Martin Von: Meteorite-list im Auftrag von drtanuki via Meteorite-list Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. August 2024 17:54 An: Meteorite-list ; ROBERT HAAG Betreff: [meteorite-list] UPDATED- Kirkwood, South Africa Meteor/ite 25AUG2024 Map v.3 Dear List, The post for the South Africa Fireball and Meteorite has been updated. Kirkwood, South Africa Meteor Entry Video- Meteorite/s Found 25AUG2024 update v.3 https://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2024/08/kirkwood-south-africa-meteor-entry.html Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo PS- If you email me put something in the Subject Line or my system rejects the email. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Meteorite unclassified
"Anybody else?" Well Anne, another Martin, who grew meanwhile as old as the mountains, while yo're elder than them.. To me your attack on Benzaki sounds like an old familiar echo from the past. Those early years of the beginning desert rush, when Sahara finds were disregarded as inferior to the "classic" meteorites and with them, often enough, the Moroccan dealers in a way, which the "woke" societies today would address as racist. Some dealer were afraid to learn something new or afraid of the new looming competition, some collectors saw the elitist character of their collecting-passion endangered... Set aside, that you never had cut open all these thousands of small Gao-Guenies, Grandseigneur Carion had collected, neither the Tatahouines... (I remember, that once I cut a Gao, which turned out to be such a remarkable melt, that I wasn't sure whether it belonged to that fall). That question was hundredfold discussed on this list here. Anne, you know exactly how the NWA-trade works. The Moroccan dealers bundle all finds from the whole Sahara, and of course they have developed an expertise in judging the possible types, cause their own wealth is at stake. And then you have - although I confess, that I haven't much insight anymore, cause I quit meteorites years ago - today it's a confusing mess with all the social media channels - -well, at least at my active times, you had a hinge between the Moroccan dealers and the collector. This hinge were/are the well-known meteorite dealers, Europeans and Americans mostly, and some advanced collectors. They purchase the stones at their very own risk in Morocco or at fairs and take care for a proper classification afterwards. If they go wrong with their guesses - bad luck for them, but that's the game. Of course you have colleagues from Morocco, which let their meteorites classify, for instance the unforgotten Hmani senior, now his sonbut Anne, how should Dr.Chennaoui handle a thousand+ classifications per year? "Harmfull for science" Rhett, Anne - are you kidding us? The IMCA linked the sites of Dr.Irving and Dr.Korotev, who meticously keep track of the Martian and lunar meteorites. How short would be their lists without the hot desert finds? That system works excellently. Within only a few years the NWAs overtrumped even the Antarctic campaigns regarding number of unpaired new material of all classes, the find weights and the diversity of types - and that all without charging a bill to the taxpayer and an with an easy access to the materials for scientists and collectors. The NWA-complex is together with the Antarctic searchs the greatest achievement in the history of meteorites. And Rhett, not the rare type lost because of misrepresentation or lacking classification is the problem, but the rare stone remaining unfound in the desert! You both forget, before Dr.Rubin can craft his thin sections and can insert a sample in his wondrous machines, he needs the very meteorite in his hands. Imagine, all the people.. Imagine, Anne, we would have to play the meteorite market theatre without the desert finds and only with "classic" meteorites? Roughly 3000 locations, whereof only a few hundred would be available at all. Let me take a look at my lists from the year when NWA 001 and NWA 002 hit the stage. CO3s, there was only Kainsaz at 60$/g on average. Anne, not everyone is able to afford your price level. Without the desert finds and the grown numbers of collectors during the internet-age - meteorites would be unaffordable for the most of us. And what the crushing mill of the asteroid belt hadn't accomplished in 4 billion years, would happen in decades. The samples would undergo an atomization, smaller and smaller crumbs. Nowadays everyone can take part in this fascinating occupation - even Moon is available at 50bucks a gram. We owe a lot to the Moroccan meteorite community. And Anne, when you someday will enter the Meteorite Walhalla you'll find there the statues of an allegory of the unknown searcher in the Sahara and another of the Moroccan dealer. Both on higher pedestals than Nininger or Ward or whatever idol you're venerating today. Such a fuss about a forgotten "likely, possible, probably, imho"... ...no offense meant.. That said, I'm creeping back into my crypt. Martin __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites - Oriented vs. Orientated: What’s the Difference?
Hi, my rusty Latin would say: "oriented" stems from the Latin deponent "oriri" and its participle "oriens, orientis"; and "orientated" was originally derived from the French "orienter" (18th cent.) (which would be in Latin "circumspicere" = to look around). Therefore, I guess, you have in English both forms for that meaning: "to orient oneself" --> oriented "to orientate oneself" --> orientated Ex oriente lux, Martin, a ghost from the past ;-) -Original Message- From: Pete Modreski via Meteorite-list To: meteorite-list Sent: Sun, May 8, 2016 1:10 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites - Oriented vs. Orientated: What’s the Difference? I've never thought that "orientated" was a real word--I always just figured it was what ignorant people say who didn't get very far in school... (my apology to any and all who like to use it!) Pete __ Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] grains of sand
>Where did this (factoid) >originate... Hi Paul, Historically, I suppose, most likely from Friedrich Wilhelm Bessel and Giovanni Schiaparelli. Bessel published in 1836 a theory on the physical nature of comets, postulating that their tails must consist of dust, expelled from the comet and driven away by a repulsive force by the sun; and Schiaparelli established in 1867 in his "Note e riflessioni intorno alla teoria astronomica delle stelle cadenti" the connection between four annual meteor streams and four comets, in demonstrating that they share the same orbits. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Paul Gessler Gesendet: Donnerstag, 7. November 2013 04:42 An: meteorite-list Betreff: [meteorite-list] grains of sand Was wondering about the statement that shooting stars we see are no bigger than grains of sand??? I here it used all the time and haven't really given it any thought. I don't buy it! I don't think a grain of sand would be able to generate enough light to be visible from earth? Has anyone actually measured these grains of sand? If so how was it done. Where did this (factoid) originate and is there any validity to it? I could see gravel sized debris producing what we see but not sand and smaller. Any one care to comment? Paul Gessler __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Exploring the Solar System in Antarctica (NWA vs Antarctica)
But Jeff! This shall be: The Earth:o And now I hit 36,000 times the space-bar until I reach, almost a football-field wide to the right, the inner boarder of the inner asteroid main-belt. Does it then really matters so much, that an object from out there hits the little letter "o" more on top or more to the side? Hot desert meteorites do have three strong advances compared to the Antarctic finds. Within all classes they outnumber the Antarctic finds by far, regarding the representation of distinct fall events. On average the individual weights/masses of the hot desert finds are much larger than those of the cold desert finds. The procurement costs for hot desert meteorites are only a small fraction of the acquiring costs of the Antarctic finds. (Ok. The latter perhaps not for the individual scientist/institute who gets Antarctic samples granted for free, but somebody has to pay the infrastructure, equipment, personnel etc. of the Antarctic expeditions - in general the tax-payers of those countries taking part in the Antarctic searching campaigns). "that the degree of weathering in Antarctic specimens is, overall, much less." True is, that Antarctic meteorites seem to weather half as fast as desert finds (I remember to have read some gross figures), and that they suffer from a different form of contamination, but seen the A-B-C-scheme versus the W0-W5-scheme, I dare to presume to say, that also that assertion is outdated today. The freshness of the hot finds is of course a function of the number of finds too. Don't forget that the very vast majority of the hot desert finds remains unclassified and unrecorded. Reasons are a lack of places for classification and of funds; the low scientific gain to be expected by working on ordinary chondrites, thus not justifying the necessary amount of funds and qualified manpower to classify them and finally economical considerations by the producers of the hot desert finds (remember those times, when NWA-OCs had cost less than Suisse cheese). "The reasons for this are historical and curatorial." Only indirectly. At least the reasons aren't scientifical ones at all, but the prime reason is politics. Indeed several research facilities and institutional collections impose themselves a complete abdication of hot desert meteorites, though that is caused by legal imponderabilia. As we all know - let it be a lack of knowledge, let it be the self-interest of a few - some countries either perceive the circumstance, that meteorites do land on their territory already as a human achievement, and as a special national achievement, although the falls of stones are independent from topographic factors unlike the other natural precipitations like rain, snowfall, hail, dew and subsume therefore meteorites under the legislation of cultural goods or they reckon meteorites among the natural resources, although they aren't mined and not so many other goods come to my mind than my beloved mouse-milk (I read a pint costs 2k$), which are the same plentiful like meteorites and also I heard that using meteorites as a resource is regarded since the end of the bronze-age as somewhat optimistic.. or they protect them by law as natural monuments, which make meteorites, if they don't have that caliber (huh, uncle Alex, I almost wrote "rogue wave") of the Hoba whopper or the Cape York masses or if we don't speak about crater-related strewnfields, to the smallest and most invisible monuments in existence. I don't know any piece of advice, that question the professional meteorite scientists have to discuss, Unfortunately they haven't any other global forum than the MetSoc for that, which is by its agenda apolitical. Well, if I dare to speak for us collectors, who can't have such a scientific or academic access to the meteorites, but often a more historical one, Our hearts are bleeding, whenever we miss in the Grand Collections of Calcutta, Vienna, London, Paris, Berlin, Moscow, Washington a second exhibition hall at least as large as the main meteorite exhibition or at least a storage in the depot facilities as large as that one for the historic ones, filled with the opulence of the meteorites of OUR times: The hot desert meteorites. I think, also in my senile retrospective, that it was an enormous mistake to miss out in that, which once will be called by our grandchildren The Golden Age of Meteorites. And here ends my annual standard rant ;-) Which, note!, has lost its anger (since I work on finding a Reimer-Tiemann-reaction in the field of meteorites). But let us sum up: The discussion of "Good meteorite vs. Bad meteorite" is a debate of the late 1990s/very early 2000s. Left today is rather: "Good meteorite vs. Evil meteorite", isn't it? (However, they're all aliens). Slowfinger, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im A
Re: [meteorite-list] OT NASA websites taken down for Government shutdown
Adam, a silent 12-minute view from outside... To me, as far as I can judge at all, the causes of your crises over there started much earlier. As early as already in the Reagan era, when it started that the middle-class got bled. And further, when the real industry was immolated on the altars of the financial industry. (Same happened in Europe in UK, under the Thatcherism). Consequently the investments in the permanent innovation of the production and infrastructure were neglected and the money was carried to the horse-race and the bookies. (You know, all the bursting bubbles like "new economy" etc.). So you have a structural problem. In former times USA imported raw materials and primary products and exported products, today it's vice versa. Additionally you had a second problem, located more on the other end of the political spectrum, that program every US-citizen in his own house (when did it start, under Carter?), where to each and every one credits were allowed for acquiring real estate, without checking whether the people would ever be able to pay the credit back and that later-on the banks started to trade with and to bet on these foul credits, resulting in the real estate & banking crises. (plus you have the huge gaps in the budget, caused by the last two expensive wars). The other model would be for instance Germany, one of the very few countries, which currently seems to get off still very lightly through the crises (which is also in Europe the largest economical depression since WWII) and is even profiting at the moment from the crises (later on we will have to pay, as Germany guarantees for the national debts of other EU-countries with a sum higher than its own national budget) because it has a different structure. Always ridiculed in times of the Big$$ for its poor financial industry and the anaemic rate of the economic growth of +/-1% per annum, it lives mainly from the production, hence from the "real" industries and the exportation (#2 behind China). Despite the crises we have a decent growth of the GNP and even a bisection of the unemployment during the last 10 years - and that all with the severe problem of a strongly over-aging society, driving the dues for social insurances like health care or old-age provisions in dizzy heights. Interesting is,that that stability is created mainly by mid-sized enterprises and not so by the industrial giants. The latter run after the shareholder value and calculate only for the quarterly statements, abandoning any long-term-strategy. They didn't create new jobs, but permanently make personnel reductions. Furthermore they are heftily subsidized with tax money or by tax exemptions, and often when they are about going bankrupt, they are rescued with tax-money... Hence to make it shorter For an observer from outside, now that blockade and the shutdown has, as regards content, nothing to do with the healthcare, but is a simple power struggle. (And we all are wondering, that in that difficult economical times and for that purpose, your congress hazards the consequences of an avoidable damage to the real GDP). Healthcare is another topic. Rather a question of mentality and history of a country. Huh, I saw Henry Fonda burying Grampa roadside on the trek to the Promised Land. (k a communist oeuvre?). I for my own at least, being ill & unfit for work for 1.5 years now,(snivel) am pretty glad, that due to my healthcare I only have to dump meteorites but not house & farm & the shirt off my back for my treatment. (And that I have a better perspective thus, than to be healthy again, but then to be forced to wear down a huge mountain of debts until handing over my spoon, as we say here) "over 50 cents goes to taxes of one sort or another" Don't worry, second-most meteorite-retail-dealers behind the U.S. seem to work in Germany; our dues&taxes are much higher (and that while having also on average somewhat higher living costs). It works too. "I think the price of meteorites will just have to go up." Nope. A life without meteorites is possible, but useless. But when the collectors' wallet gets thinner, the meteorites have to get CHEAPER. (And the same way the U.S.-dealers don't care a fig for the tax&dues burden of their Germs-colleagues, the Russian and Moroccan colleagues won't care for your tax&dues yoke. Decisive for your success was, is and will always be: the collector). And as always, I could also go wrong with my views, nevertheless, much success to all, & be confident. Martin (disappearing again for the next months...) -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. Oktober 2013 02:16 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA websites taken down for Government shutdown My 10-minute rant since all of this government shutdown business is being postured about! _
[meteorite-list] My apology to Mike Farmer
(A.S.: Hi Art, please let it through, it's important for me, but also for the collectors for not falling for the same scam) Hello, After a few days of contemplation (sorry for having been slow, but they were necessary for me to cool down), I want to publically and cordially apology to you all, and especially to Mike Farmer, hoping he will accept it. I was wrong and my reaction was crude, unjust and inadequate. All three specimens in question turned out to be fakes. Mike was right and due to his expertise it was avoided that the pseudo-Estherville came in further circulation, neither the forged Bondoc nor the faked Murchison were distributed, so that a direct damage, caused by my fault, to the community was averted. Therefore we have to thank Mike. Those fakes must have been built by someone, who has a deeper knowledge about meteorites, as it's relatively uncommon, that classical names of semi-rarely meteorites are used and the fakes equipped with a legend and labels. (So far we can recall only another case, the forged Dhofar-Moon, which was more easy to unmask, as the specimens came with a "certification" of the university Muenster, which doesn't issue such, and the find was only one stone, so that the finder himself immediately could identify them as fakes, as no fragments of that stone did exist). We tried to investigate the case further, fearing that more of such fakes will appear to the harm of the collectors. But the seller seems to be now untraceable. His name is: Jankó Zoltán from Hungary. He claimed to have purchased an older mineral collection a few years ago, where these specimens were a part of among other meteorites. And the collector's name, he gave, is: József Vida from Derecske. So we ask you all, to be extremely cautious (and to inform us) if persons of these names contact you. Well, 33 years I was able to sort out the fakes, wrongs, mislabeled ones, now I failed. That shouldn't and that mustn't happen and is in that field unforgivable. (At least, after having learned the lesson, also to behave better, I hope to stay fake-free now till 2046). So I end with the necessary: Mea maxima culpa, and stay in silent contrition until I'll be allowed to see the sun again.. Martin Altmann __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is a... OT
Hi Adam,
what do you want. The Bondoc and Murchi is here with us and contemporary
suspended from sale,
Farmer brings back the Estherville and will get his refund,
and then we will test it.
Therefore the witch-hunt is paused for 3 weeks+ until after Ensisheim.
(and Art can close that topic until then).
Martin
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam
Hupe
Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Juni 2013 16:48
An: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] what is a... OT
Raspberry Tony sounds like a good definition for an invasive species that
ruins it for honest species trying to eek out a living. Maybe in this case,
we should call it an "evasive" species since we are not getting straight
answers.
It reminds me of an invasive species called a Quagga Mussel (small clams)
living here in Lake Mojave. They clog up pipes, ruin boat motors and are
just plain bad news. They feel they are entitled to live in our lakes for
free and cause destruction even though they were not invited. They have even
been known to piggy back off one another: a filthy trait they are well-know
for. Next these clams will be demanding entitlements, continue to self-pair
and substitute garbage for the real thing; All in the name of making more
clams!.
Definition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quagga_mussel
Pure stupidity and greed. ... and for some reason, we all put up with it
and what cost? The undermining of collector confidence.
Adam
From: Michael Farmer
To: Martin Altmann
Cc: ""
Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] what is a... OT
Amazing long and perfect description of A long forgotten word.
Sadly you seem not to have the time to answer a couple of simple questions
regarding the non-meteorite you sold me.
I took it to a meteorite club meeting yesterday for many people to enjoy,
100% agree it is not even a meteorite.
Can you use that amazing power of gab you have Martin, and simply let us
know how you decided to make me your "Raspberry Toni"? You never answered
one question asked you about the fake meteorite, fake labels, fake
Murchison. You only made references to me carrying around baggies of
meteorites in the old days (not sure what that has to do with receipt of a
fake meteorite from you). Sorry, I wasn't born a millionaire and had to work
to make myself one. It took some time.
You make reference to a mistake I made in clearly shipping the wrong
specimen some years ago, again sorted out and quickly corrected without
character attack on the victim by me, mistake admitted and rectified easily.
You refuse to even acknowledge that sending fake produced plastic label is
FRUAD when your add clearly states that they are real AML pieces.
I just wanted some answers to these questions, instead got a rambling bunch
of nonsense that does nothing but divert and dilute from the bottom line of
suspect or outright fake meteorite sold to me by you.
If you would simply put all that energy to letting me know how such
imitations were able to pass your very experiences hands, this would already
be forgotten. Instead all I got is how wrong and stupid I am compared to
you, you are of course always right because this came from some old Romanian
collection? Well, since Romania is well known as the "Nigeria of Europe" for
scams, I guess this could also be a Romanian scam meteorite.
Sorry, this "Rapsberry Toni" is offended, and angry at receipt of a fake
piece of garbage.
Perhaps I'll send it up to ASU for lab work to see what exactly you sold me.
They have Estherville from Nininger as well.
Michael Farmer
On Jun 2, 2013, at 4:48 AM, "Martin Altmann"
wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Raspberry Tony (Himbeertoni) is a jesting and cuss word of the
> Austro-Bavarian language.
> The etymology is absolutely unclear, neither old references are found.
> Schmeller's Bavarian dictionary of 1827 doesn't know him yet.
>
> A Raspberry Tony is a person of very limited intellect, that is so
> excessively good-natured, that he put up with everything and is easy
> to short-change.
>
> There are in my opinion three possibilities of the origin:
>
> Either it's a literary character (of a forgotten piece),
>
> or it's the characterization by profession - somebody who is of such
> an imbecility, that he can earn his living only by collecting and
> selling raspberries,
>
> or it's a humorous derivation from the Strawberry George (often
> appearing as the boon companion of the Raspberry Tony).
> The Strawberry George in turn is a mishearing of the "archbishop", In
> German "Erzbischof" which sounds similar to "Erbeerschorsch".
("Erdbeer(e)"
> ("Ground"berry) is the Strawberry,
Re: [meteorite-list] what is a... OT
Hi Paul,
Raspberry Tony (Himbeertoni) is a jesting and cuss word of the
Austro-Bavarian language.
The etymology is absolutely unclear, neither old references are found.
Schmeller's Bavarian dictionary of 1827 doesn't know him yet.
A Raspberry Tony is a person of very limited intellect, that is so
excessively good-natured, that he put up with everything and is easy to
short-change.
There are in my opinion three possibilities of the origin:
Either it's a literary character (of a forgotten piece),
or it's the characterization by profession - somebody who is of such an
imbecility, that he can earn his living only by collecting and selling
raspberries,
or it's a humorous derivation from the Strawberry George (often appearing as
the boon companion of the Raspberry Tony).
The Strawberry George in turn is a mishearing of the "archbishop", In German
"Erzbischof" which sounds similar to "Erbeerschorsch". ("Erdbeer(e)"
("Ground"berry) is the Strawberry, "Schorsch" is the Bavarian form of
George).
Best!
Martin
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Paul
Gessler
Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Juni 2013 06:04
An: meteorite-list
Betreff: [meteorite-list] what is a...
Can someone please tell me what a "Raspberry Tony" is?
Thanx
Paul Gessler
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Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites sold from Europe, not as described
Mike, it's enough. I'm not your Raspberry Tony. >I wrote to the list because you wrote ke a very nasty private email I sent you a single email, yesterday at 11:11 p.m. containing the same content about labels ect, just I wrote here today, plus offering you to send the Estherville back and to refund the purchase price and the shipment costs. That email didn't contain any single harsh word, neither was it nastier than the first email we wrote to the list today. An answer you didn't wrote to us, instead we could read your effusions this morning on the list. So stop that immature clownery or look for somebody else to play with. >Where is my refund? I will be happy when my money is back in my account. Your email yesterday came in half an hour earlier than our answer to you. As you might now, booking period of banks is in Germany (and Europe) ending at 5:00p.m. And booking takes place only on working days not on weekends. For accounting and tax purposes we have to withdraw each Paypal-payment onto our bank accounts. So we have first to refill the paypal-account again, which takes 2 working days. Hence probably Wednesday you'll get your refund, Which btw. matches the 5 days you had needed to pay the specimen. Else, much fun still in continuing, I won't support you in that, as in past you often enough you talked yourself in a ride or fall on this list, and anyway I trust enough in the competence of the collectors, to built their own opinion, what they will think about this. So see you in Ensisheim, Until then I won't be at your disposal here. Have a nice day, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Farmer Gesendet: Samstag, 1. Juni 2013 15:38 An: Martin Altmann Cc: Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites sold from Europe, not as described Martin, Do you feel a plastic label printed on your home computer qualifies as an "American Meteorite Laboratory" passport as you write in your email? I can print such things in seconds, as can anyone. So by using your "usually" very high standards, I can print €500 notes on my computer, as long as I put the name of the European bank reserve on the fake, it would make it a real €500 note? I think I'll try to pass a few around at dealers tables in Ensisheim and see how many rocks I can buy. Sorry but this collector is calling your "passport" a fake travel document. You sold this Estherville to me as an extremely rare well documented piece, you clearly state that it is with AML labels, but there is no AML label, just a plastic modern-made card. You know it is NOT am AML label, and selling it as such is a scam. Since there is not label, no number on the stone, absolutely nothing to show provenance, clearly the entire email you spent hours writing was a sales gimmick. You know I am a knowledgeable and serious collector, so why you would pass off this manufactured piece to me I don't know. Surely knowing my temper as you right here, you would know what the response would be? The only reason I bought it is because you stated it was AML with label. I figured that if it has an AML label then I was safe. I did not consider that I would receive a plastic card in substitute for AML documentation. I don't know who did it, or what "Romanian" collection it came from, I can't understand how you passed that off as acceptable. Where is my refund? I will be happy when my money is back in my account. Why you are defending these fake pieces with a story about a mislabeled meteorite I sold years ago I am not sure. The piece was cut and yes, it was in the wrong box or bag or whatever. Mistake yes, fraud of making and selling fake old labels and provenance, no. I have made at least one mistake mixing up a piece, but you know what, thankfully a collector caught it, I OK'd him to cut and see and once cut we recognized the error and removed the piece. The way things should go. I wrote to the list because you wrote ke a very nasty private email telling me how many decades you have been selling and how you could just resell the piece angered me. You know they are fake, now the whole list knows, you can compare your "murchison" to real murchisons and see there is no comparison. I don't want them resold onto perhaps other less knowledgable collectors. Something really really is fishy is going on here. By the way, you sold me and others these pieces in this forum, so why not clear it up in this forum? I also do not want to see these things sold and resold for years to come. What about the obvious fake Murchison? You don't even answer as to why you are selling such a piece. I am really concerned at how this has come to pass. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Jun 1, 2013, at 5:05 AM, "
Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites sold from Europe, not as described
Hi Jason, as told, I won't discuss that until perhaps in 3 weeks. Last year I almost bought the farm, therefore I have no fervor anymore to take part in such kind of discussions. I experience once some years ago in Germany a really unbelievable dirty rumpus against me, which dissolved first in a little cloud of dust and than in smooth zero. There I still allowed myself to let me a nerves-cancer grow. But now I learned, it's not worth time and effort. So sorry for the popcorn seller, I will stay out. Especially from silly dealers' fights. I swapped as a collector for decades, I sold so many thousands specimens, I can't remember to have received a single doubt or complaint about authenticity. The labels are a nice extra, the persons and the source we acquired the specimens from have zero to do with contemporary meteorite market. And anyway, at those prices we offered them, we could have also thrown the labels in the dustbin before, and they would have sold fast. Just a request came in from - no offense meant - a veteran collector of broad experience, in whom I trust more to rate the specimen, than in your tele-diagnosis-skills, asking whether the Estherville would be free again now. So it's quite simple and valid not only for us, but for anyone wanting to buy a meteoritic specimen: If you have doubts in the specimen or in the seller: Just don't buy. And these were my last cents in that non-affair. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Jason Utas [mailto:meteorite...@gmail.com] Gesendet: Samstag, 1. Juni 2013 14:23 An: Martin Altmann; Meteorite-list Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites sold from Europe, not as described "If you take Bondoc, the specimen numbers are absolutely consistent with all the numbers of the Huss-Bondocs offered by Geoff Notkin, or at Arnaud in the Tricottet Collection or on Murrays fine new collection site or those Peter Marmet showed us." Yes, but the rear (and cut face of it) look like slag compared to other Bondocs on the market. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=bon doc+meteorite&_sacat=0&_from=R40 There are a variety of textures, but none so porous, and the knobbly back and metal distribution look rather like slag. Such observations are not conclusive, but...meh. I'd return or ditch the material. Regards, Jason www.fallsandfinds.com On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 5:05 AM, Martin Altmann wrote: > Hi Mike and all, > > > its really always sad, to experience, what internet did to some, > regarding communication, couth and manners. > As told yesterday to you, as you are obviously not content with the > specimen, we offered you to send in back and to refund you. > Your temper and your readiness to doom and damn each and everyone in > public, as soon as an opportunity shows up, is legendary on that list > here, as the archives tell manifold and that behavior caused so many > new collectors to turn their backs on to their new hobby, when they > read your endless flame wars here on the list, because they had > imagined meteorite collecting more august than to witness brawls on the fish-market. > > Here you can observe a difference about Andis and my notion of the > meteorite scene, we never took advantage in trying to badmouth you, > when you sold e.g. a Bensour of 85g to S.A. which landed with your > label at M.V., who asked you again and you identified it without > doubts as Bensour, but after he cut it, it turned out to be H and rather a Bassikonou. > > To the specimens. > They originally stem from an old private collection from Hungary. A > collection from pre-desert times. > As you might remember even from the times, when you were still > peddling with your little bag with your sales inventory from client to > client, in former times, the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s the idea of > pedigree-collecting wasnt born yet, the fascination emanating from > the specimens themselves, the fact that they were meteorites, was for > the collectors overwhelming enough, so that they did not need the > little extra-boost of having a written note, from whom they had > acquired them (because they knew it anyway). Hence they were proud on > the specimens as they were now their specimens, so they wrote their > own labels and threw often the labels of the sellers/source away. > I dont know how many specimens you acquired from private collections > of these times, but you will agree, that the majority of such > specimens comes without any label or they come with the label of the > collector, and we at least had dozens of cases, where the old original > label was preserved, but where the collector had cut off the part with > the name of the dealer or the museum. > Here with these two specimens of Estherville and Bondoc, it was a > luck,
Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites sold from Europe, not as described
Hi Mike and all, its really always sad, to experience, what internet did to some, regarding communication, couth and manners. As told yesterday to you, as you are obviously not content with the specimen, we offered you to send in back and to refund you. Your temper and your readiness to doom and damn each and everyone in public, as soon as an opportunity shows up, is legendary on that list here, as the archives tell manifold and that behavior caused so many new collectors to turn their backs on to their new hobby, when they read your endless flame wars here on the list, because they had imagined meteorite collecting more august than to witness brawls on the fish-market. Here you can observe a difference about Andis and my notion of the meteorite scene, we never took advantage in trying to badmouth you, when you sold e.g. a Bensour of 85g to S.A. which landed with your label at M.V., who asked you again and you identified it without doubts as Bensour, but after he cut it, it turned out to be H and rather a Bassikonou. To the specimens. They originally stem from an old private collection from Hungary. A collection from pre-desert times. As you might remember even from the times, when you were still peddling with your little bag with your sales inventory from client to client, in former times, the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s the idea of pedigree-collecting wasnt born yet, the fascination emanating from the specimens themselves, the fact that they were meteorites, was for the collectors overwhelming enough, so that they did not need the little extra-boost of having a written note, from whom they had acquired them (because they knew it anyway). Hence they were proud on the specimens as they were now their specimens, so they wrote their own labels and threw often the labels of the sellers/source away. I dont know how many specimens you acquired from private collections of these times, but you will agree, that the majority of such specimens comes without any label or they come with the label of the collector, and we at least had dozens of cases, where the old original label was preserved, but where the collector had cut off the part with the name of the dealer or the museum. Here with these two specimens of Estherville and Bondoc, it was a luck, that the labels why the collector enlarged and laminated once them we dont know, maybe for his collection filing box gave the hint, where the collector once had acquired them from. They were Huss specimens. And Huss at that time wasnt the glorified successor of Nininger, he was nothing else than a dealer for his contemporaries, just like today, a Hupe, a Haiderer or a Cottingham for us. If you take Bondoc, the specimen numbers are absolutely consistent with all the numbers of the Huss-Bondocs offered by Geoff Notkin, or at Arnaud in the Tricottet Collection or on Murrays fine new collection site or those Peter Marmet showed us. Btw. none of these is listed in the both Huss-catalogues, none of these got a number painted on the surface by Huss. (We would have expected you to know that, as U.S.-expert) As told, we are convinced of the authenticity of the specimens, as well as those esteemed list members, who had them already in their hands. And as it is our policy, we offer always a return to our private buyers. So thank you Anne, Jeff and Mike for your efforts, to keep the Market clean, but we dont see yet any reason for hysteria. (Aside from the likeliness, that we after 33 years of meteorite collecting and 10+ years meteorite dealing, would have nothing better to do, than to forge Esthervilles and Bondocs and to fake a legend, to sell them at those cheapest prices we did). However, and there you most probably will agree, we see no sense in a written theoretical discussion here on the list, but like it the sober way. Youll bring the Estherville to Ensisheim, we got so many requests for that very specimen and there are so many experts, who will identify it as that, what it is, that we wont be in no way reluctant or shy to show the specimen to each and everyone, who wants. Therefore we will adjourn the further theatre, if you dont mind, until 3 weeks. Martin & Andi __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] How sweeet!
Wanna have!! A japanese chocolatier is making now chocolate meteorites! >From Allende to Yamato! Dirk, what is the price for the set? http://www.rihga.co.jp/osaka/leclat/kiseki.html Best! Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Nickel-iron meteorite used to make 5, 000 year old Egyptian beads
Hi Robin, only short remark, that the iron beads from the Gerzeh tombs are of meteoritic origin (due to their high Ni-content), was already stated in 1932 by Gerald Wainwright. Also Buchwald 1975 seems to have them. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Robin Whittle Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. Mai 2013 06:11 An: METEORITE LIST Betreff: [meteorite-list] Nickel-iron meteorite used to make 5, 000 year old Egyptian beads The article: http://www.nature.com/news/iron-in-egyptian-relics-came-from-space-1.13091 reports on an article behind a paywall: Analysis of a prehistoric Egyptian iron bead with implications for the use and perception of meteorite iron in ancient Egypt Diane Johnson, Joyce Tyldesley, Tristan Lowe, Philip J. Withers, Monica M. Grady. Meteoritics & Planetary Science online: 20 May 2013 DOI: 10./maps.12120 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./maps.12120/abstract Abstract: Tube-shaped beads excavated from grave pits at the prehistoric Gerzeh cemetery, approximately 3300 BCE, represent the earliest known use of iron in Egypt. Using a combination of scanning electron microscopy and micro X-ray microcomputer tomography, we show that microstructural and chemical analysis of a Gerzeh iron bead is consistent with a cold-worked iron meteorite. Thin fragments of parallel bands of taenite within a meteoritic Widmanstätten pattern are present, with structural distortion caused by cold-working. The metal fragments retain their original chemistry of approximately 30 wt% nickel. The bulk of the bead is highly oxidized, with only approximately 2.4% of the total bead volume remaining as metal. Our results show that the first known example of the use of iron in Egypt was produced from a meteorite, its celestial origin having implications for both the perception of meteorite iron by ancient Egyptians and the development of metallurgical knowledge in the Nile Valley. The Nature write-up includes a quote from a museum creator that "during the time of the Pharaohs, the gods were believed to have bones made of iron". - Robin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Red(dish) Fusion Crust
Hiho, I'm thrilled, maybe now many readers of the list rush to their drawers and showcases, to look for more examples of other falls, where they thought before, that the lighter colour was due terrestrial oxidation and the individuals not that fresh. Let's wait, what they'll find! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Jason Utas [mailto:meteorite...@gmail.com] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Mai 2013 18:02 An: Martin Altmann Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Red(dish) Fusion Crust Hola, Looking at his pagethe Buzzard is red to a much lesser extent. Good observation, though -- it makes sense that H's would still show at least some hematite presence, if that is was causes the red coloration. The first link in my last email goes against what you say above. Note that the pictured stone has a black, frothy rear and a reddish shield-shaped front. Regards, Jason www.fallsandfinds.com On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Martin Altmann wrote: > Hi, > >>But, then...why don't H chondrites usually form such red fusion crusts? > > But they do, > the example on Svend's page is a Buzzard Coulee, and in literature you > read it about Pultusk. > >>This list seems to have a short memory. > > Well, the specialty here, is that a colour variation in the crust, if > found only on one side, can be used as criterion for orientation. Most > of the examples shown here, underline, that stones must have had at > least a longer phase of stable flight, because it is indicated by the > lipping around the edges of these sides. (Which identify the coloured sides as backsides). > > Best, > Martin > > > __ > > Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Red(dish) Fusion Crust
Hi, >But, then...why don't H chondrites usually form such red fusion crusts? But they do, the example on Svend's page is a Buzzard Coulee, and in literature you read it about Pultusk. >This list seems to have a short memory. Well, the specialty here, is that a colour variation in the crust, if found only on one side, can be used as criterion for orientation. Most of the examples shown here, underline, that stones must have had at least a longer phase of stable flight, because it is indicated by the lipping around the edges of these sides. (Which identify the coloured sides as backsides). Best, Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] ORANGE fresh Chelyabinsk (was: Two special Chelyabinsk individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented!)
Hi Steve, Fred, all... Marvelous! Now we saw examples of Bensour, "Mauretania", Chelyabinsk and have from old literature Pultusk and Mocs.. ...seems that Captain Blood's "Orientata" needs a new chapter: "Color-Orientation"! (Fascinating, after such a long time spent with meteorites, we from the Meteorite House weren't aware of that phenomenon, you always can learn something new!). Though we have to have some discipline and to be cautious, not to establish a new artificial hype or to create a new fashion, multiplying the prices, as it had happened, if you remember, first with the "hammers", then with the "meteorites with holes" and again afterwards with the "irons with impact craters". At least now the Ensisheim visitor have an additional hint, what to look for, if they'll rummage the tables of the Russian colleagues, which will sag from the loads of fantastic Chelyabinsk individuals. Cheers! Meteorite House On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 9:58 PM, Steve Witt wrote: > Martin, Fred and all, > > I just got in some of the new meteorite from Mauritania showing the > same thing. No black lipping, but brown crust on the back side of a > fresh stone. > > Front: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevewitt/8870872109/ > > Back: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevewitt/8870872297/ > > > > Steve Witt > IMCA #9020 > http://imca.cc/ > > > > From: Martin Altmann > To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 4:03 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] (House-AD): ORANGE fresh Chelyabinsk (was: > Two special Chelyabinsk individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust - > color-oriented!) > > > Hi Fred, > > Exactly and Wow! > With your Bensour it seems that just the same had happened! > Has also the black rim! > > >>My guess at the time I got it, was simply a matter of primary fusion >>crust > (the brownish one) and secondary fusion crust >(the darker one). Could > it be a matter of altitude where it was formed? Speed & temperature of > fusion?... > > There we definitely have to ask our experts of aerodynamics and > chemistry here. > > To me it's evident, because the black crust lips over the brown one, > that that brown on the back must have been formed before the crust on the apex. > > There are going things in flight on the back of the stones > remember the Tamdakht-Couscous or the 12.5kg-flat heat-shield, which > had also such fragments incorporated in the skin.. > > Now these color-crusts with Chelyabinsk (and Tissint). > > Here, look, our most shocking example! > Is something for Jan, Menno or Rob, > Because half of the stone is almost:ORANGE! > > Has 63.55g > > These sides are normal: > http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_01.JPG > > http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_02.JPG > > But look at that! > > http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_03.JPG > > http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_04.JPG > > http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_05.JPG > > Hmm, shall we sell it too? > O.k > > :-) > Your Meteorite House > > > > Von: Meteoriteshow [mailto:meteorites...@free.fr] > Gesendet: Montag, 27. Mai 2013 17:32 > An: 'Martin Altmann'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: RE: [meteorite-list] (House-AD): Two special Chelyabinsk > individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented! > > Hi All again, > > It seems that my link didn't work; let me try again, actually I have > several > pictures: > > http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/bengu > erir-7 > 9.6g(1).jpg > > http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/bengu > erir-7 > 9.6g(7).jpg > > http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/bengu > erir-7 > 9.6g(6).jpg > > http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/bengu > erir-7 > 9.6g(3).jpg > > > Cheers > > Fred > www.meteoriteshow.com > IMCA #2491 > > -Message d'origine- > De : meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] De la part de > Martin Altmann Envoyé : lundi 27 mai 2013 14:26 À : > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Objet : [meteorite-list] (House-AD): Two special Chelyabinsk > individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented! > Importance : Haute > > Hello there, > > we have to share with you a pretty exciting observation. > It was here already on the list, that some of you found on the > first-pick Chelyabinsk
[meteorite-list] Color-orientation described by Doell (1887), Tschermak and Rath with Mocs and Pultusk!
Hi Fred, Mike, all, that phenomenon oft he red-brownish fusion crust is already described. Herb Raab (asteroid 3184) found that interesting article by Eduard Doell: "Two New Criteria for the Orientation of the Meteorites", in Jahrbuch der k. k. geol. Reichsanatalt, 37. Band, 2. Heft (1887), S. 193-206. We translate freely his quote: "The [...] features used for orientation are: 1. seams of the rind, 2. shape of the surface, 3. depressions on the faces, 4. small meteorites assembled on the backside along with filaments of melt and drops. 5. flowlines 6. diversity of colour and luster of the rind." [...] "Vom Rath describes on the Pultusk-stones reddish-brown Rinds of an almost metallic luster, which show no lippings. 'Over that red Melt ran a second, black and shiny one, originating from the apex. The black melt is a product of a higher or longer lasting heat, causing a more complete melting of the stone and especially adding a higher amount of iron to the fusion crust.' Tschermak found on the backsides of the stones of Mocs a brown up to copper red, lightly shiny rind." Voilá! Thank you Herbert! The Meteorite-House-Team __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] (House-AD): ORANGE fresh Chelyabinsk (was: Two special Chelyabinsk individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented!)
Hi Fred, Exactly and Wow! With your Bensour it seems that just the same had happened! Has also the black rim! >My guess at the time I got it, was simply a matter of primary fusion crust (the brownish one) and secondary fusion crust >(the darker one). Could it be a matter of altitude where it was formed? Speed & temperature of fusion?... There we definitely have to ask our experts of aerodynamics and chemistry here. To me it's evident, because the black crust lips over the brown one, that that brown on the back must have been formed before the crust on the apex. There are going things in flight on the back of the stones remember the Tamdakht-Couscous or the 12.5kg-flat heat-shield, which had also such fragments incorporated in the skin.. Now these color-crusts with Chelyabinsk (and Tissint). Here, look, our most shocking example! Is something for Jan, Menno or Rob, Because half of the stone is almost:ORANGE! Has 63.55g These sides are normal: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_02.JPG But look at that! http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_03.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_04.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_63_55_g_05.JPG Hmm, shall we sell it too? O.k :-) Your Meteorite House Von: Meteoriteshow [mailto:meteorites...@free.fr] Gesendet: Montag, 27. Mai 2013 17:32 An: 'Martin Altmann'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: RE: [meteorite-list] (House-AD): Two special Chelyabinsk individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented! Hi All again, It seems that my link didn't work; let me try again, actually I have several pictures: http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/benguerir-7 9.6g(1).jpg http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/benguerir-7 9.6g(7).jpg http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/benguerir-7 9.6g(6).jpg http://meteoriteshow.free.fr/images/for_sale/July_2007/Benguerir/benguerir-7 9.6g(3).jpg Cheers Fred www.meteoriteshow.com IMCA #2491 -Message d'origine- De : meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] De la part de Martin Altmann Envoyé : lundi 27 mai 2013 14:26 À : meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Objet : [meteorite-list] (House-AD): Two special Chelyabinsk individualswith Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented! Importance : Haute Hello there, we have to share with you a pretty exciting observation. It was here already on the list, that some of you found on the first-pick Chelyabinskis places with a brownish, nevertheless fresh fusion crust. That phenomenon btw. you had sometimes also on a few Tissints, there the brown crust was even translucent (were horribly difficult to sell, because people watching the photos were skeptical, thought, they wouldn't be fresh, but weathered - and that, where no iron is present in Tissint to rust). Many of you blossomed during the last 3 months into true Chelyabinsk-experts, so please, pay attention to those two individuals and tell us your opinion: 75.45g http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_03.JPG 68.37g http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_03.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_04.JPG Well, baffling, aren't they? Both of them have a side, and ONLY one side, which is fully coated by the brown crust, while all other sides are black, as usual. Here: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_02.JPG And here: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_02.JPG And you see, that the brown-side is framed all around by a lipping, which is black, hence most would therefore say, only because of the rollover-lip, that the stones are flight-oriented. At least one can say, by means of the circular lipping around the edges, that the stones had for a longer time a stable position in flight. And that the brown side is the backside, the lee-side. And what is striking, is, that the lipping overlaps the brown crust, hence the brown crust must have formed simultaneously, while the front surface was melting. Now one could speculate, what could have caused that different crust - from the chip missing in one of the stones, we see that the material beneath the brown crust isn't special (anyway, on the sides the fusion crust for the same material is black). Thus maybe the different color could stem from a lack of oxygen, when it melted, on the lee-side of the stone in flight, where one has a low pressure/partial vacuum? We think, one could even speak of a new category of orientation:
[meteorite-list] (House-AD): Two special Chelyabinsk individuals with Brown Lee-side Crust - color-oriented!
Hello there, we have to share with you a pretty exciting observation. It was here already on the list, that some of you found on the first-pick Chelyabinskis places with a brownish, nevertheless fresh fusion crust. That phenomenon btw. you had sometimes also on a few Tissints, there the brown crust was even translucent (were horribly difficult to sell, because people watching the photos were skeptical, thought, they wouldn't be fresh, but weathered - and that, where no iron is present in Tissint to rust). Many of you blossomed during the last 3 months into true Chelyabinsk-experts, so please, pay attention to those two individuals and tell us your opinion: 75.45g http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_03.JPG 68.37g http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_03.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_04.JPG Well, baffling, aren't they? Both of them have a side, and ONLY one side, which is fully coated by the brown crust, while all other sides are black, as usual. Here: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_68_37_g_02.JPG And here: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Chelyabinsk_75_45_g_02.JPG And you see, that the brown-side is framed all around by a lipping, which is black, hence most would therefore say, only because of the rollover-lip, that the stones are flight-oriented. At least one can say, by means of the circular lipping around the edges, that the stones had for a longer time a stable position in flight. And that the brown side is the backside, the lee-side. And what is striking, is, that the lipping overlaps the brown crust, hence the brown crust must have formed simultaneously, while the front surface was melting. Now one could speculate, what could have caused that different crust - from the chip missing in one of the stones, we see that the material beneath the brown crust isn't special (anyway, on the sides the fusion crust for the same material is black). Thus maybe the different color could stem from a lack of oxygen, when it melted, on the lee-side of the stone in flight, where one has a low pressure/partial vacuum? We think, one could even speak of a new category of orientation: COLOR-ORIENTED! Well, if you like to have them, what shall we do with so special specimens... Let's make 20$/g to be among the very cheapest Chelyabinsk-offerers, + 50cents for the lipping, where others would scream: oriented, oriented! + 1.5$/g for the fantastic "color-orientation"... Makes22$/g. Fascinating, aren't they? Your Meteorite House Team __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Was Feb 11, 2012, Qinhai province, Fall - short Argentina question
Addendum. It's article 296 of the Indian constitution. Also famous meteoricist Hey reported on the last meeting of the UNESCO Working Group on Meteorites in 1967, that according to that article meteorites are regarded in India as "bona vacantia" (id est: ownerless objects). Anyway, I could find over the years only a very few countries, where meteorites automatically are property of the state (now not regarding any landowner-finder questions, but general national laws - hence where the meteorite is property of the state because it is a meteorite). These are: Some provincial federal states in Australia. South Africa Namibia Countries explicitly mentioning meteorites in their national laws are: Argentina Botswana Canada (have still to read) Lesotho New Zealand The Philippines Poland Slovakia Swaziland For clarifying, cause these were most often mentioned else, suspected to have specific restrictions: China (pers.comm Geological Survey of China) Once discussed to introduce a meteorite law, but didn't install any. Brazil, other than once wrongly reported by the former IMCA-president has no meteorite laws, neither any export regulations. Oman has no "meteorites" in their laws. Switzerland has no "meteorites" in their laws. UNESCO & Unidroit conventions have no "meteorites" in their suggestion lists. India has no "meteorites" in their laws. If you know more countries with meteorite laws, please add them. But for that purpose, please be sure, that these laws contain the term "meteorites". Laws containing vague terms like "treasure find, resource, antiquity, artifact, object of scientific interest, natural monument, movable heritage, object of cultural relevance"...and so on are of no interest, as such terms are subject to interpretation (in case of a court) and not helpful. If you want to regulate meteorites, write "meteorite" in your law. More I couldn't find yet, regarding national laws. Problem is, I'm not trained like Douglas Schmitt and not so well paid, that I could visit the libraries of the world, hunting for meteorite laws. And many countries haven't their legal codex published yet on internet or not published English, French, Spanish... Now to my question. It's said, that there is now a general ban of exports for meteorites in Argentina, though I'm unable to find that very law. Does anyone has it? I have only the following laws: 26.306 (2007): which converted meteorites into a moveable heritage in the sense of and to handle like given in 19.943 (1972): the ratification of the UNESCO 1970 convention And 25.527 (1995): the implemention of the UNIDROIT convention (Well and of course the collecting ban in the Chaco-province exist too. 3.562 (1990)) In none of these laws I can find, that moveable/cultural heritage is excluded from exportation or not, neither what to do, if you want to export it legally. Any help? Second question is about Algeria, Nothing to find on web. So I asked a IMCA-Director to contact and to ask Prof. Djelloul Belhai (Université des Sciences et de la technologie Houari Boumediene) to supply us with the wordings of the specific laws, cause in one of his publications he once mentioned the "draconian" punishments introduced for meteorite-plundering. Has that meanwhile happened? Thanks in advance, And don't bash me, My position is clear:No human is illegal. No Meteorite is illegal. (and "Free Milly!", I confess, I gave up). Best, Martin And disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer, I'm no lawyer, by no means these informationshall be regarded as da truth or valid or as complete. Ect.ppp. For reliable information contact your next IMCA-office. PPS: By far Kuhlest meteorite law on Earth has definitely Swaziland - worthy for a Harvey-Award! -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Martin Altmann Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Mai 2013 16:17 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Feb 11, 2012, Qinhai province, Fall Hi Mike, indeed, check the archives, I'm busy. All that exportation-ban-and-all-belongs-to-the-state-blah-blah was based on some administrative orders of the 19th century, where the clerks were advised where to forward meteorites to, if they get hands on, hence touching the ownership-question in no way. Today you have it in the Indian constitution, that meteorites don't belong to the Republic. The paragraph I gave here on the list. Which says, that all finds, which before were bestowed upon the King, shall be property of the Republic. King: In the short time between independence and the formation of the new constitution, The English King was degraded from an Emperor of India to a King of India. Hence de facto it's the British Common law ada
Re: [meteorite-list] Feb 11, 2012, Qinhai province, Fall
Hi Mike, indeed, check the archives, I'm busy. All that exportation-ban-and-all-belongs-to-the-state-blah-blah was based on some administrative orders of the 19th century, where the clerks were advised where to forward meteorites to, if they get hands on, hence touching the ownership-question in no way. Today you have it in the Indian constitution, that meteorites don't belong to the Republic. The paragraph I gave here on the list. Which says, that all finds, which before were bestowed upon the King, shall be property of the Republic. King: In the short time between independence and the formation of the new constitution, The English King was degraded from an Emperor of India to a King of India. Hence de facto it's the British Common law adapted to the new Republic. And as we all know, in England and Scotland, the finds of gold and silver go to Queen Lizzy, but the finds of meteorites go to Rob Elliott. See also the very funny Monty-Python-style debate in the House of Lords about a bill, which asked to make all meteorites to a property of the state (the link to the protocol I gave once here on the list). Anyway, Meteorite laws - that is the (self-chosen) job of the IMCA, so most probably they can answer all your questions of that legal complex in a more qualified way. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic Stone & Ironworks Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Mai 2013 04:32 An: Greg Catterton Cc: Meteorite List; robertbeauf...@rocketmail.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Feb 11, 2012, Qinhai province, Fall Here we go again with Katol. Someone show me the law against exporting meteorites from India. And I don't mean show me a 150-year old British Empire mandate that no longer applies. I have spoken to people in India about this and they all say the same thing - they know of no modern Indian law against meteorite exportation. Whoever started this rumor is engaging in speculation at best and they have an agenda at the worst. AFAIK, Katol is legal to own. If someone can produce a reliable and authoritative source who is familiar with Indian law and that person can state that it is indeed illegal and point to the relevant laws, then I will change my mind. Best regards, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 5/22/13, Greg Catterton wrote: > thing is, katol is illegal to own or export without permit... > > Greg > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android > > __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction
Oops, forgot a shergottite: Sayh al Uhaymir 005 SHER 930.56$/g (930.56 )1 Best, Ma -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 23. Mai 2013 00:39 An: 'meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com' Betreff: AW: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction Hi boyz, maybe my old price guide of the season 2000/2001 is helpful? I compiled it then from 92 offerers from the web and from snail-mail offers. It's inflation adjusted for the year 2011. You find it in the German forum (you don't have to be a member or logged in, to use the Price guide) http://www.jgr-apolda.eu/index.php?topic=6912.0 The lines read as follows: Meteorite Name - Type today - average price/g (lowest-highest) - number of offerers. *=fall (then) Let me search the Martians DaG 476 SHER 1733$/g ( 457 - 3712 )13 DaG 489 SHER 1014$/g (550 - 1600) 7 DaG 670 SHER715$/g (512 -1024) 2 DaG 735 SHER 704$/g (704 ) 1 Dho 019 SHER 1536$/g ( 512 - 2560) 1 Los Angeles 001 SHER5184$/g(3200 - 7168) 2 Shergotty* SHER 6400$/g( 6400)1 Zagami* SHER 1823.44$/g ( 576 -10666) 12 Nakhla*Nakhlit 3653$/g(1960 - 5760) 4 Lafayette Nakhlit 44965$/g (29482-64000) 2 Governador Valadares Nakhlit 46163$/g (25078-8) 3 Chassigny* Chassignite 87751$/g (51200-126720) 3 And the Lunars: Calcalong Creek LUN-M 273485$/g (98970-448000) 1 (damals LUN-A) DaG 262 LUN-A49400$/g(38234-64000)3 DaG 400 LUN-A24415$/g (12800-32000) 8 And that was it. Main reason for the difference there between Martians and Moonies, I assume, is a relatively simple and unromantic one. Zagami had a pretty large tkw. And it took until into the second half of the 1980s until it was fully established, that the shergottites most probably stem from planet Mars. Before, and I still remember it from the annual Munich shows, you could read on the Zagami-labels as type: anomalous Eucrite. And as eucrite one simply couldn't ask such exorbitant prices. On the other hand, when the suspicion of the Martian origin became stalwart, it simply would have been not possible to multiple the former price within 1-3 years with a factor of 500x . Enjoy using the old Price Guide, is always nice to see for me, that the old laborious work from then, is still sometimes good for something today. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Mai 2013 20:55 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction It is very simple. There were only a couple of lunar meteorites available at the time while there was several times the weight available in Martian which has always been the case. Collectors would be happy with a single gram of Martian since one piece looked very similar to the next. Lunar breccias on the other hand, display many features so each piece was different enough to create demand for multiple specimens per collection instead of a single token piece. The least expensive Lunaites of all time came from Oman if you adjust the value of the dollar six years ago before it lost most of its value. The supply has dwindled on the Omani lunar meteorites so most have tripled in price. NWA changed the landscape for both Lunar an Martian meteorites. During this depression, lunar material has remained nearly the same and held most of its value while Martian offerings are still off peak. A Martian fall for $300.00/gram is a bargain. On the other hand, a Lunar fall could run into the tens of thousands per gram if we were ever lucky enough to witness one. I have dealt more Martian and Lunar material than most dealers and see that they both make good investments if purchased properly. The entire collectables market sector has been down the last six years and meteorites have retained most of their long-term value unless emotional buying was in play. Ask any Moroccan what excites them more, a new Martian or a Lunar find? They know they can get way more any lunar meteorite than Martian so the answer will always be the same. Lunar is king. Adam - Original Message - From: Greg Catterton To: Adam Hupe Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction I dont disagree, lunar is my favorite but it makes me question... why
Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction
Hi boyz, maybe my old price guide of the season 2000/2001 is helpful? I compiled it then from 92 offerers from the web and from snail-mail offers. It's inflation adjusted for the year 2011. You find it in the German forum (you don't have to be a member or logged in, to use the Price guide) http://www.jgr-apolda.eu/index.php?topic=6912.0 The lines read as follows: Meteorite Name - Type today - average price/g (lowest-highest) - number of offerers. *=fall (then) Let me search the Martians DaG 476 SHER 1733$/g ( 457 - 3712 )13 DaG 489 SHER 1014$/g (550 - 1600) 7 DaG 670 SHER715$/g (512 -1024) 2 DaG 735 SHER 704$/g (704 ) 1 Dho 019 SHER 1536$/g ( 512 - 2560) 1 Los Angeles 001 SHER5184$/g(3200 - 7168) 2 Shergotty* SHER 6400$/g( 6400)1 Zagami* SHER 1823.44$/g ( 576 -10666) 12 Nakhla*Nakhlit 3653$/g(1960 - 5760) 4 Lafayette Nakhlit 44965$/g (29482-64000) 2 Governador Valadares Nakhlit 46163$/g (25078-8) 3 Chassigny* Chassignite 87751$/g (51200-126720) 3 And the Lunars: Calcalong Creek LUN-M 273485$/g (98970-448000) 1 (damals LUN-A) DaG 262 LUN-A49400$/g(38234-64000)3 DaG 400 LUN-A24415$/g (12800-32000) 8 And that was it. Main reason for the difference there between Martians and Moonies, I assume, is a relatively simple and unromantic one. Zagami had a pretty large tkw. And it took until into the second half of the 1980s until it was fully established, that the shergottites most probably stem from planet Mars. Before, and I still remember it from the annual Munich shows, you could read on the Zagami-labels as type: anomalous Eucrite. And as eucrite one simply couldn't ask such exorbitant prices. On the other hand, when the suspicion of the Martian origin became stalwart, it simply would have been not possible to multiple the former price within 1-3 years with a factor of 500x . Enjoy using the old Price Guide, is always nice to see for me, that the old laborious work from then, is still sometimes good for something today. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Mai 2013 20:55 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction It is very simple. There were only a couple of lunar meteorites available at the time while there was several times the weight available in Martian which has always been the case. Collectors would be happy with a single gram of Martian since one piece looked very similar to the next. Lunar breccias on the other hand, display many features so each piece was different enough to create demand for multiple specimens per collection instead of a single token piece. The least expensive Lunaites of all time came from Oman if you adjust the value of the dollar six years ago before it lost most of its value. The supply has dwindled on the Omani lunar meteorites so most have tripled in price. NWA changed the landscape for both Lunar an Martian meteorites. During this depression, lunar material has remained nearly the same and held most of its value while Martian offerings are still off peak. A Martian fall for $300.00/gram is a bargain. On the other hand, a Lunar fall could run into the tens of thousands per gram if we were ever lucky enough to witness one. I have dealt more Martian and Lunar material than most dealers and see that they both make good investments if purchased properly. The entire collectables market sector has been down the last six years and meteorites have retained most of their long-term value unless emotional buying was in play. Ask any Moroccan what excites them more, a new Martian or a Lunar find? They know they can get way more any lunar meteorite than Martian so the answer will always be the same. Lunar is king. Adam - Original Message - From: Greg Catterton To: Adam Hupe Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mars Meteorite May Fetch $160,000 At Auction I dont disagree, lunar is my favorite but it makes me question... why has Lunar meteorite value decreased from $25,000 a gram to $400 a gram or less - in some cases as low as $200 a gram for one certain lunar meteorite? Thats a loss in value of $24,600 or more in 14 years on lunar while Martian has increased. Perhaps Martian samples are on the way to becoming the new king? Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.
[meteorite-list] House-Pedigree-AD: Large Nininger Bondoc (244g) & superb Nininger Estherville Indivdual (111g) with AML-Labels
Dear Collectors, today we want to accelerate especially the heartbeat of the lovers of documented historic specimens, in setting up for sale two of such, which would be without doubt also very remarkable, if they wouldn't be accompanied by their passports of provenience, the labels of the American Meteorite Laboratory. The American Meteorite Laboratory (AML) was founded in 1960 in Westminster, Colorado by H.H.Nininger's daughter Margaret and her husband Glenn Huss, to reestablish and continue the work of her father with his American Meteorite Museum, which he had finally to shut down for financial reasons in 1953. The AML had such an outreach in the institutional and private meteorite scene, that it served even as an eponym for the meteorite dealers of the following generation, like e.g. the Suisse Meteorite Laboratory and the Bavarian Meteorite Laboratory. Instead of giving you here the hundredth instant-biography of Nininger or Huss, we rather like to honor: The women! Who so undeservedly are standing small and faint behind the gloriole of their husbands, who never would have achieved that, they are celebrated for, if there hadn't been the support by the passion, the patience, the knowledge and the special abilities of their wives.(see also post scriptum). Therefore you get here for reading the obit for Margaret Huss, who died in 2007: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_5878113 Now to the exhibits: BONDOC. http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Bondoc_244_g_004.JPG Bondoc was one of the largest coups ever of the Niningers. The story of the adventurous recovery is told in one of Al Mitterling's "Nininger Moments": http://kuerzer.de/AlBondy Unfortunately the large slices cut from the huge main mass turned out to be everything else than stable and they crumbled and disintegrated to the harder iron nodules, manifold abundant in Bondoc, in larger silicate inclusions and crumbs of rust. The AML-Bondoc offered now is pretty massive and stable, looks like to be an endcut, and belongs to the iron-rich mesosideritic looking specimens, which seems to be scarcer than the preserved iron nodules and eucritic/silicate-inclusions. 244 gram it has! http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Bondoc_244_g_001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Bondoc_244_g_002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Bondoc_244_g_003.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Bondoc_244_g_004.JPG As you can see, in the last decades it had developed here and there some rust on the cut face. According to your wishes, we can re-polish it. (We have let it now as it is, because we know that most pedigree-collectors like their specimens to be as original as possible, also to keep the accordance of the specimen's weight with the given weight on the label). The second AMLer is a truly wonderful ESTHERVILLE http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Estherville_111_g_005.JPG We guess, that Estherville doesn't need any introduction anymore here on the list, as it is the third largest observed fall of the U.S. Nevertheless it seems pretty difficult to find nowadays still entire individuals, better than the also hard to get popular nuggets. Here to your delight we have now a perfectly intact individual, which by all means would be also without the old label a premium collection-piece for your cabinet. Note that it has not only the thinner rougher fusion crust, but also the fat and bulgy one with bubbles from outgassing where the silicate constituents had been molten. 111 grams it has (and Nininger/Huss/AMM/AML-fans know, that Esthervilles with AML-Labels are so much rarer than the Bondocs). Enjoy! http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Estherville_111_g_001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Estherville_111_g_002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Estherville_111_g_003.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Estherville_111_g_004.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Estherville_111_g_005.JPG Prices: Bondoc 244g $1350 Estherville 111g$1387 Both together: $2580 And for your patience, to have read the advertizing until that point, a third goodie: MURCHISON AT BELOW 100$/g All said about Murchison. The recent 5 years it got so sought after, that the standard price, even for larger stones, has established at 150$/g (and even 200-250$/g for minor amounts here and there and on ebay). Below you won't get any anymore. Here now a fragment, naked without crust and grinded on one side, At $800 with a weight of 8.13grams - which is 98.4$/g. The label on the back is looking familiar, but we didn't get it, from whom it could be. Maybe you can identify it? The font is outdated today, print looks like to stem from the time, when the printers still had needles. http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Murchison_8_13_g_004.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Murchison_8_13_g_001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Murchison_8_13_g_003.JPG Now time to let the games begin! The Meteorite House Hamburg - Munich A.Gren M.Kurschat M.Altmann P.S. Some visual
Re: [meteorite-list] Guesstimate on number of meteorite collectors.
Hi Don, let me share, what I learned (after a couple of years as a fulltime dealer). To answer your questions: Number of "serious" collectors (until they will have repaired the broken cable under the Atlantic, never got such a poor echo on unbeatable offers..) is world-wide 12 (twelve). Number of universities/museums interested in meteorites is: 32. Number of wannabee and pros as offerer of meteorites is: 237. >I just don't see how anyone can make a full time living Selling meteorites Be a nerd. Don't expect fulfillment in life. Nininger never was happy. >become millionaires Don, learn: regarding meteorites you can be more successful than ANSMET, PRIC and NASA together - the owner of the pedicure shop on the other side of your road will always have a better life than you. >That irks me to no end! Then I tell you: wrong business. To the South of my town, there is a lake. It has the highest real estate prices of all Germany. There is a man, who purchased a villa and a land at 50 millions of $. You know, he didn't find the Moon rock, mankind never had before, he didn't managed to bring up that Martian rock, all the billion-$ missions looked on the red planet for, he never got his hands on all Chelyabinskis found. He made his fortune with vacuum-devices, giving males the illusion, that for a short time, their sexual organs seemed to be bigger than they believed, they could be. And forget about ebay. Hardly you can find there an ambitious specimen offered, and even more seldomly such sold. And repair the internet-cable under the Atlantic Ocean. Just mailed to 20 US-collectors with unbeatable offers, got 1 response. Hence must be broke or so. Cause so impolite, they never were, not to answer. >with such a bad global economy Economy in Germany, second largest pool of collectors, for instance is currently excellent. Though they tend to buy only the most common of the common mainstream. Be brave, Don, wait another 10 years and meteorite collecting will return, just like it should be and was once before! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Don Merchant Gesendet: Dienstag, 14. Mai 2013 21:29 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Don Merchant Betreff: [meteorite-list] Guesstimate on number of meteorite collectors. Hi List. Some thoughts and questions to ponder. To me it seems like there is an endless number of Meteorite Dealers, Wannabee Meteorite Dealers, Part Time Sellers, Full time Sellers, One hit wonder Sellers, Mix of meteorite and Jewelry Sellers etc. All one has to do is just go on eBay to get a partial idea of this fiasco, let alone the many websites you come across when searching blindly on the internet involving meteorites. It seems everyone including my great grandmother is selling meteorites! I also know that meteorite collecting is confined to a very small group/percentage of people world wide as compared to other hobbies. Does anyone have any idea of how many hard core Collectors there are in the world at one time? I am not talking about the 1 time Buyer of a meteorite either. I see some Dealers selling the same material every week for years! I mean it sells, but to who!! The same type specimen every single week for years, I mean every Collector on Earth should have a piece of it by now, and yet someone buys another piece the following week! What are Collectors doing, double and tripling up on the specimens! I don't get it. AnywaysI just don't see how anyone can make a full time living Selling meteorites with such completion out there these days and the fraud that takes place. My pet peeves are those that sell without providing at least an ID Card or some kind of provenance...at least something to back the specimen. That irks me to no end! I have solved that issue long, long ago ...I don't buy from you, period. How the heck can I resell that specimen without some form of legitimacy. So for those of you who still continue to sell without ID Cards or Provenance, lets get your crap in order. Another thing I noticed is that (especially) on eBay that week after week after week specimens like Lunars, Martians, or historical specimens (well known and famous specimens) that which have been sold or known for years, still get high prices for the auction. You mean that after all these years there are still Collectors that do not have a piece of say NWA 482 or DaG 476! Once it is put up on eBay somebody buys it. Where on Earth do these people work that they continue to buy and buy and buy meteorites! I guess I just don't understand who is always buying these specimens with such a bad global economy and a limited elite group of Collectors. Where the heck do you get your money from! Maybe inheritance? Lottery Money? Can't be from hard earned money! Just sounding off is all to those who want to listen/read. I mean some people go to these shows like Ensisheim or Tucs
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes
Hi Jim, Adam, Jason, Sires.. Danger Mouse can't shut his mouth, whenever he hears over the pond the whining about taxes. Maybe you could take the following not as derision, but as a consolation to calm your worries, when I now demonstrate, how the tax&dues situation is for the various German meteorite dealers, here in Europe, the birthland of meteorites and meteorite collecting. Hence such dealers, who you all esteem since many years for their assortments, offers and finally their prices. People like the Karls, Andi Gren, Siggi Haberer, Mirko Graul to mention a few only, or if you use ebay, Stephan Decker, Tim Gueldenpfennig and so on.. (And can't remain silent, as I'm fighting now for several months with the German offices, to get my pre-payments of taxes&dues back, for the last year, where due to a disease I nearly wasn't able to work, so that currently I have to occupy myself with that matter). First of all, Adam, I noticed, watchin my nieces&nephew, that the U.S.-educational system attaches importance to impart patriotism. (To a much higher extend as it would be possible in Germland with its evil history). Adam, isn't paying taxes an act of patriotism? Now, join with me a ride through the tunnel of horror and learn, what your colleagues from the old world, and they aren't all communists, are paying as a matter of course from their revenues - and note, that it is still possible for them to work in that profession, hence most probably the U.S.-sellers will be able to do so too. Germany: Sales tax. Yep, we dealers have to collect sales taxes for the state for all sales within the European Union. If a European collector purchases a stone from the U.S.-seller, he has to pay that tax directly to the state. Hence don't be worried, at least with your overseas sales nothing will change, as your clients there already pay your price + their domestic sale tax. In Germany the sales tax on meteorites as an exception of a mineral collectible is 7% of the price+shipping. If you have bad luck and you meet an officer, who is not of the opinion, that your meteorite sample is an unique mineral collectible, you pay the general sales tax rate of 19%. (and then you can fight 2 years forth and back, until you'll get back your 12% excess. Sounds strange, but it's due to us having, what a fun, approx. 70,000 individual tax regulations, where you have to know such funny things, that cauliflower is in the opinion of the Republic no vegetable, but broccoli is). Small business is exempt from sales taxes. And is defined as a business which generates less than 23,000$ turnover (turnover and not profit) per year. The sales tax is shared between the Republic and the federal states. Obama-Care: Comes already now into play. Cause you have to pay a percentage from you brut profit, hence still before deducting all the taxes. The compulsory health and long term care insurance costs a little more than 15% of your brut profit. But minimum for the self-employed even if he does earn almost nothing: 5,700$ per year. (And if you want to have the same benefits like employees, you have to pay more). Business Tax: We have to pay of course too, as soon as we have a turnover per year larger than 32,000$. It is a local tax, the height is appointed by the city/commune and varies therefore strongly. Highest rates you pay in such cities like Munich, where everyone wants to live. In ugly towns like Berlin it's much cheaper, half of it. In my case a few thousands per annum. Church Tax: A specialty in Germany, a relic from the secularization 200 years ago. If you're a member of the catholic or protestant church, the state collects from you for the clergy taxes. It's a federal tax, difficult to calculate, a couple of hundreds per year. Retirement arrangements. If you don't want to work as a meteorite dealer as long as a Nininger did and until you peg out, you have to pay an annuity insurance. Currently that is still voluntary, though government has already plans, to make it mandatory for self-employeds with a minimum due of around 9,000 - 12,500$ per annum. Solidarity tax >From that, what still remains, we are charged with that special tax of 5.5%. Some 20 years ago the federal german republic purchased the german democratic republic in the East. After the western government had sold there everything at ballpark prices, which socialism hadn't destroyed yet, they found out that the new country was vast and empty and that one had to rebuilt it, since then we pay that tax and now the infrastructure and the villages in the East look much better than in my Bavaria. Income tax: Finally, finally we are allowed to pay our income tax! If the sum of all your incomes of all the sources you have exceeds 11,000$ per year, you have to pay income tax. Depending of the height of your income the rate starts at 14% and ends at 45% (in autumn is election afterwards 51% are possible). For meteorite collectors there exist no concept of sales of "collecting" stu
[meteorite-list] House-AD: Gan Gan is gan, eh: gone (Consolidation iron?)
Hello again, short update: Don't be sad - the early bird ate already the Gan Gan. Many thanks! Perhaps, to console you, we should remind you on a no less excellent iron specimen in the same price category, which has missed your attention, cause it was covered by Ukrainian cosmic debris. The Whitecourt, where one could state similar things like about the Gan Gan, because wandering around in the EoM/Bulletin Database and on the sales sites, one hardly finds a similar fine specimen. Difference to Gan Gan is, that we priced it under-average. Here it was: With frayed and folded edges plus also some tear-lines left. http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Whitecourt_131_43_g_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Whitecourt_131_43_g_01.JPG other side is a smooth bulge: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Whitecourt_131_43_g_05.JPG 131.43g 6.5$/g instead of the 9$-standard. Premium-Piece, isn't it? Such a shrapnel, As Sikhote you would say: Ugly. As Gebel Kamil: well, o.k. But as Whitecourt: WOW, stunner !!! Enjoy it too! Meteorite House Crew PS: Most recent abstract about: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2013/pdf/2316.pdf __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] House-AD: A Wonderful Specimen for The Eyes and The Hearts !
Good Morning everybody. The Meteorite House loves such ads, where it hasn't to write lengthy explanations: http://kuerzer.de/Ganplanet1 The Dark Planet is floating through the iron spaces. Surrounded, as we see here better, by his satellites: http://kuerzer.de/Ganplanet2 What it is? A giant troilite in a Gan Gan. Gan Gan is an Argentine iron of 1984, always flying a little below the radar since, because it's not superrare and there was almost always here and there a slice to be found, thus it is of modest availability, congruently with its for an iron modest tkw of 83kg and that at a comparably very modest price. A Fine octahedrite it is of a very regular pattern from the IVA-group. Known also to be not complicated regarding rust-tendencies. Very comfort it is this time to explain, why the Gan-Gan-Style of the Meteorite House is so exceptionally gifted, not only that you're as always invited to compare that very specimen with the specimens currently offered at our colleagues, but just take a look to the various slices of the fellow collectors, given in the EoM and to be quickly found in the Bulletin Database entry: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=10852 See, all the slices there are either free of troilite, or do own only a few very tiny droplets. (If we were pushy, we would write: don't hesitate too long, not that one of these collectors will upgrade his/her Gan-Gan-specimen with our planet-slice). This partial slice has on two adjacent edges the natural silhouette and rind. It is pre-prohibition, has a perfect preparation as always and weighs 220grams. Now it's up to you to decide, whether our slice can be categorized as "High-End" and whether we are too audacious, if we aim with this gorgeous specimen for the price, which every regular dealer asks on his page for "normal" Gan Gans, which is:4$/g. Enjoy! The Meteorite House Crew A.Gren M.Kurschat M.Altmann P.S. Having experienced, that currently the very most collectors are either somewhat exhausted from having acquired Chelyabinsk very early, or still keeping their funds, planning to purchase a Chelyabinsk, when it will have gotten even more cheap - we can arrange instalments, if necessary. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!
Hi Count, yep you're right, I'm no diplomat. (And - viziers and consuls - here in Germany with its baleful history, we have a different paradigm about states servants than in the hegemonic proud Ex-Ottoman Empire, German consuls aren't only servants of the state, but also servants of the people). Anyway, the arrests of tourists having picked up a stone from the beach are always also a part of a political game. Partially because of the permanent refusal of the EU to start negotiations with Turkey for its admittance to the EU, and partially because of Turkey's aggressive policy to claim back antiquities and cultural heritage from other governments. From the Rep. of Germany for instance, they want to have back that stuff: http://www.geo.de/reisen/community/bild/regular/220723/Pergamon-Altar.jpg (Btw. one important reason for not declaring meteorites to be "cultural" heritage. That would bring the big historic institutional collections in hard troubles). Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Count Deiro [mailto:countde...@earthlink.net] Gesendet: Freitag, 19. April 2013 04:55 An: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh! Hallo Martin, I said meteorite to him and the answer was "no". I don't want to call attention to myself by asking for a further clarification. My feeling is that he would take offense at my having the impudence (Frechheit) to quote his own laws to him. Alles bestes Guido -----Original Message- >From: Martin Altmann >Sent: Apr 18, 2013 12:14 PM >To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh! > >Hi Count, > >maybe you could ask the consul again, to give you the respective law? > >Decisive is the Law No. 2863 of July 21, 1983 on Conservation of >Cultural and Natural Property (as last amended by Law No. 5835 of >February 4, 2009 and Law No. 5917 of June 25, 2009) > >Here it is in English version: >http://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text.jsp?file_id=249359 > >It definitely has no meteorites in the catalogue-articles, where all kind of >object-categories are explicitly named. > >Neither cover the definitions of "cultural property" nor "natural >property", given in Chapter 1, Art. 3a) 1)&2) Meteorites in general, but would >need an interpretation by a court. >E.g. a find of H5 could perhaps not be regarded "unique" (nor being of beauty, >if it's W3, hehe). > >And even if covered, if purchased from a dealer with the right license, they >could be exported like antiquities in such cases too. > >On the other side, rocks are per se not "o.k." see the definition of "natural >property". > > >Best, >Martin > > >-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- >Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com >[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von >Count Deiro >Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. April 2013 20:31 >An: Anne Black; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh! > >Dear Anne, > >In reading the story, the two suspected artifacts are described in the body of >the article. > >I have contacted the Turkish Cultural and Economic Affairs office in Los >Angeles, California and His Excellency, Aydın Topcu, Consul General for >Turkey, informs me that the collection of meteorites for removal from Turkey >is forbidden under law and that there is no permit process. > >So "rocks" ok...other things not. > >Cordially, > >Count Deiro >IMCA 3536 > >-Original Message- >>From: Anne Black >>Sent: Apr 18, 2013 11:09 AM >>To: countde...@earthlink.net, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh! >> >>Sorry, but this does not add up. >>I have been to Turkey twice, beautiful country, very friendly people. >>I have bought minerals, some multi-colored marbles, picked up some >>blue serpentine on the side of the road, and had no problem at all >>bringing them back. >>I also visited many archaeological sites, but I certainly would never >>pick up anything there. >> >>I wonder what his "stones" look like! >> >> >>Anne M. Black >>www.IMPACTIKA.com >>impact...@aol.com >> >> >>-Original Message- >>From: Count Deiro >>To: meteorite-list >>Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 10:48 am >>Subject: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh! >> >> >>Hello Listees, >> >>Take a look at how Turkey is handling "rock collectors". And this one >>a tourist! >> >> >>http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/22013551/us-tourist-faces-jai
Re: [meteorite-list] Glenn Huss
Hi Peter, the Huss-numbers starts for the different Wellmen as follows: Wellman (a) H12.xx Wellman (b) H19.xx Wellman (c) H39.xx Wellman (d) H52.xx Wellman (e) H277.xx Best! Martin (PS: You have an email with another concern from me in your inbox) -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Peter Davidson Gesendet: Freitag, 19. April 2013 11:36 An: Meteorite List (meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com) Betreff: [meteorite-list] Glenn Huss Hello Friends I wonder if anyone on the list can help me with some information about the famous collector Glenn Huss. I have been working on the collection recently and came across a specimen which we have now discovered is linked to the collection of Glenn Huss by dint of having a Huss Catalogue Number on the specimen . It is a specimen of the Wellman meteorite and was purchase from the mineral dealer David New of Montana in 1977 as part of a larger consignment which also included two other meteorites (Wiluna and Allende) as well as several mineral specimens. The Catalogue of Meteorites (CoM) lists five Wellman entries (a,b,c,d and e) I was wondering which one ours could fit into. It is clearly an H type chondrite but whether it is H4 or H5 I can't really tell. I wondered if the catalogue of the Huss collection exists somewhere and wondered if I could match up the Huss number on our specimen with the register number in the catalogue. I am also keen to add any additional information into our own database here. All replies will be gratefully received. PS Notice I have resisted talking about the death of Margaret Thatcher (oops!) Cheers Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA 00 44 131 247 4283 p.david...@nms.ac.uk Vikings! Discover their untold story in a new exhibition of treasures. National Museum of Scotland, 18 January 12 May. Book now www.nms.ac.uk/vikings National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!
Hi Count, maybe you could ask the consul again, to give you the respective law? Decisive is the Law No. 2863 of July 21, 1983 on Conservation of Cultural and Natural Property (as last amended by Law No. 5835 of February 4, 2009 and Law No. 5917 of June 25, 2009) Here it is in English version: http://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text.jsp?file_id=249359 It definitely has no meteorites in the catalogue-articles, where all kind of object-categories are explicitly named. Neither cover the definitions of "cultural property" nor "natural property", given in Chapter 1, Art. 3a) 1)&2) Meteorites in general, but would need an interpretation by a court. E.g. a find of H5 could perhaps not be regarded "unique" (nor being of beauty, if it's W3, hehe). And even if covered, if purchased from a dealer with the right license, they could be exported like antiquities in such cases too. On the other side, rocks are per se not "o.k." see the definition of "natural property". Best, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Count Deiro Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. April 2013 20:31 An: Anne Black; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh! Dear Anne, In reading the story, the two suspected artifacts are described in the body of the article. I have contacted the Turkish Cultural and Economic Affairs office in Los Angeles, California and His Excellency, Aydın Topcu, Consul General for Turkey, informs me that the collection of meteorites for removal from Turkey is forbidden under law and that there is no permit process. So "rocks" ok...other things not. Cordially, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- >From: Anne Black >Sent: Apr 18, 2013 11:09 AM >To: countde...@earthlink.net, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh! > >Sorry, but this does not add up. >I have been to Turkey twice, beautiful country, very friendly people. I >have bought minerals, some multi-colored marbles, picked up some blue >serpentine on the side of the road, and had no problem at all bringing >them back. >I also visited many archaeological sites, but I certainly would never >pick up anything there. > >I wonder what his "stones" look like! > > >Anne M. Black >www.IMPACTIKA.com >impact...@aol.com > > >-Original Message- >From: Count Deiro >To: meteorite-list >Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 10:48 am >Subject: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh! > > >Hello Listees, > >Take a look at how Turkey is handling "rock collectors". And this one a >tourist! > > >http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/22013551/us-tourist-faces-jail-in-turkey-f >or-collecting-beach-stones#axzz2QpOTN1Sq > >"It will never be he same." > >Count Deiro >IMCA 3536 MetSoc >__ > >Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh!
Sorry, (apart from this adding up at least as much as the meteorite laws Anne defends), please don't do it like Anne did. Turkey is known for more than ten years to have made series of arrests for the same reasons. Turkey is very popular in Europe for beach holidays and family vacations (cause cheaper and better service than e.g. Greece). Never pick up stones from the beach as souvenirs! The most uproar here in Germany was, when a father was arrested for his 9-years-old sun having picked up an amorphous stone of marble at the beach. (Where later an "expert" commission decided (I doubt, they could have proved it), that it could stem from a base of an antique statue). Such cases happen a dozen times per year, usually they are "solved" for foreign tourists with an imprisonment on remand of up to half a year in a Turkish jail and a fine of ca. 10,000$. (Same applies to accidentally picked up fossils). Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Anne Black Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. April 2013 20:09 An: countde...@earthlink.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh! Sorry, but this does not add up. I have been to Turkey twice, beautiful country, very friendly people. I have bought minerals, some multi-colored marbles, picked up some blue serpentine on the side of the road, and had no problem at all bringing them back. I also visited many archaeological sites, but I certainly would never pick up anything there. I wonder what his "stones" look like! Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com impact...@aol.com -Original Message- From: Count Deiro To: meteorite-list Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 10:48 am Subject: [meteorite-list] Uh! Oh! Hello Listees, Take a look at how Turkey is handling "rock collectors". And this one a tourist! http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/22013551/us-tourist-faces-jail-in-turkey-for-co llecting-beach-stones#axzz2QpOTN1Sq "It will never be he same." Count Deiro IMCA 3536 MetSoc __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] House-AD: In Honor of Vesta - Dreampiece (only AHOW-an) and Dreambits
Dear collectors, the Meteorite House crew is of the opinion, that in all that Chelyabinsk-hustle it would be unfair to neglect one of our all favorite luminary; Goddess Vesta - now where the Dawn spaceprobe said farewell to her (what a picture!): http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/685735main_pia15678-43_full.jpg Dawn, which had made a pass to her in such an unbeseeming manner, that the wrinkles of the Lady became visible, her pockmarks and the layers of powder she applied to cover them - and that we got the final missing evidence, that some of the rocks in our drawers and cabinets are truly of Vesta's belongings. Therefore we compiled a little piece, wherein specimens for really everyone can be found, from the budget collector, who nevertheless doesn't want cut back in quality to the toppest notch, who has severe problems to find still something substantially new for his/her collection. Four movements we have to play, but we try to keep it short this time, for not taxing your attention span (which is getting shorter and shorter in the FB-ages). 1st) NWA 6475 Cuuutest pearls and real gems, crusted and fresh individuals of a polymict eucrite. (All love them. And don't worry, also the highrollers amassing stones of museums sizes - quite all of them have a feeble for such miniatures! And will set 6475 with caution between their Mini-Camel Dongas and Bilangas). Btw. also internally NWA 6475 has all, a fine polymict EUC needs, even larger carbonaceous inclusions, here an example: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_end_1_59_g_01.JPG It's our second lot, the first one went so quickly, that nothing was left to advertize here, sorry. Same price. Fresh Individuals (the numbers painted on them are Buhl-numbers from the Meteorite Recon Coll.): A) 1.24g $40 A little bit broken, but in the crack by chance you find a large eucrite-nest. http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_24_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_24_g_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_24_g_03.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_24_g_04.JPG B) 1.77g $57 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_77_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_77_g_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_77_g_03.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_77_g_04.JPG C) 1.83g $59 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_83_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_83_g_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_83_g_03.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_83_g_04.JPG D) 1.94g $63 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_94_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_94_g_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_1_94_g_03.JPG E) 3.31g $107 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_3_31_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_3_31_g_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_3_31_g_03.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA_6475_3_31_g_04.JPG 2nd) Exclusive reference specimens for numbers fetishists. There we'd have to offer as specialty three different eucrites of newer and newest NWA-entries. Exclusive they are inasmuch as these numbers are not available else than through these few references pieces, while the rest of the masses remained in the private collection of the purchasers + at the classifying institutes. Hence stuff and in sizes, which would most probably disproportionally highly paid, if thrown into ebay. However, they are pretty fresh! F) NWA 6730 Bulletin entry: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=54599 A monomict one (monomict eucrites are rarer than polymict ones). Well fresh, note the fusion crust on the edge. Displays two lithologies, one is leopardialic Millbillillie-style, the other coarser (to the left, down). Two grinded slices in a box: 1.97g + 1.21g = 3.18g $59 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA6730_3_18_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA6730_3_18_g_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA6730_3_18_g_03.JPG G) NWA 7705 A polymict eucrite and a true beauty. Nice extra - the finder is given in the Bulletin: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=57152 Elegant - we like especially the faint whitish cumuli clouds of the matrix, giving the view depth and the little black clasts and fragments like a flock of birds playing high in the air. It's only weakly shocked. It's even an idea fresher than the first one, as one can detect by means of the fusion crust. Two grinded reference slices 3.81g + 1.43g = 5.24g $124 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7705_5_24_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7705_5_24_g_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7705_5_24_g_03.JPG H) NWA 7706 http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=57153 Remarkably stronger shocked is that new polymict eucrite. Had a typical high-gloss-crust, but unfortunately and despite its
[meteorite-list] House-AD: The Meteorite House sells World's Most Beautiful Iron Meteorite
Hello World, in its unbearable modesty The Meteorite House pushes on the Olympus its throne closer to Hephaestus' in giving you today the great privilege to have access to the last fullslices of the fractal iron NWA 7335. NWA 7335 IS the most beautiful and most spectacular iron among the 1074 iron meteorites, the Bulletin lists. Full stop. Happy those, who own already their slice and will freely share with you their amazement arising, whenever they take a look on their specimen, cause that, what they observe, is truly unbelievable!: The kamacite, forming the Widmanstätter pattern has not the usual shape of straight bars and bands, but you'll find it in form of twisted bundles, almost plaited like pigtails!! !! The baffled geometrician will find to his wondrousness intersection angles of 60° and even 70°! The size of the pigtail pattern is about that of a medium octahedrite, nevertheless - it's getting even better: The plessite fields between the pattern, they aren't empty, but full of myriads of tiny spindles, which in some fields repeat the Widmanstaetter pattern on a small, down to microscopic scale, while in other fields they form own geometrical patterns!! Absolutely unique and aesthetically a true bomb. Mysterious and enigmatic must be its genesis. Enjoy: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_0_05.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_0_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_0_02.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_0_03.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_0_04.JPG Find the classification here, of course the type is unique too: An ungrouped, plessitic Octahedrite. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=55763 It is evident and easy to foresee, that without an NWA 7335 any serious iron meteorite collection will remain incomplete forever. That iron represents on the iron meteorite sector the quintessence of more than 30 years of cold and hot desert hunting and you'll agree that it is apt, to crown and to complete a long and rich life of an iron meteorite specialist. (No worries, also the next 30 years we will be there for you). In those times of Mercurian prices, of pecuniary valuations of watery Martians, of groundshaking LL5s or Indian-Katolic H5s crazinesses, you'll see us to be much too old-fashioned in filling out the price tags. Our failure shall be your luck. Hereso are the last fullslices. More material isn't left from the 4.9kg that meteorite originally had. (And one of the slices we need still for the most prominent iron pope, so better give us also an alternative choice). All slices are ennobled on one side by the incredibly contrast-rich Meteorite House Finish (MHF), the other side is rough from the saw (ultrahard it is, that iron). Only the smallest slice has MHF on both sides. 29.05g (both sides MHF prepared) 726$ 562€ http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_29_05_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_29_05_g_02.JPG 147g1896$ 1470€ http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_147_g_01.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_147_g_02.JPG 177g2283$1770€ http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_177_g_01.JPG 212g2734$2120€ http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/NWA7335_212_g_01.JPG NWA 7335! - Who, that hath no eyes to see, no heart to feel, shall never be called a serious collector again! And whoever dares to call this iron "nice", won't get any of it. Now good luck to all! Obeisances & homages, also those of North Korean style, we'll accept this time only publically here on the list, for people not erroneously thinking, that NWA 7335 would be only an insiders' tip and because of the wave of influenza raging in Germany, the Meteorite House is currently not able, to inflate NWA 7335 to that living legend, it already is and ever will be. Atchoo! The Meteorite House Hamburg - Munich M.Kurschat A.Gren M.Altmann E.&V. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Chelyabinsk at White House today
They are mentioned in the bible: Acts 19,35: (Paul in Ephesus) And when the town clerk had quieted the crowd, he said, Men of Ephesus, who is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper of the great Artemis, and of the sacred stone that fell from the sky? Amen Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Farmer Yeah, sort of like congress is not a fan of science and education. Half of them don't believe in meteorites because it doesn't mention them in the bible. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone O __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A Bunch of Irregular Stones I Found (+How I Think They May Have Originated)
Hmmm Peter, >If you wanted to help, you might have suggested why a folded portion of an outer >layer of stone, revealing an inner layer of a different color, is common on non->meteorites, such as "slag", O.k. I help you. But vice versa. 1. Meteorites don't have layers. For layers you need in 1st instance: gravitation. Meteorites stem from too small bodies, that those would have sufficient gravitation, that layers can settle. >This has a surface with a "bubbly" appearance 2. Meteorites don't have bubbles. So you found and described already by yourself the two strongest and most absolute criteria for exclusion that an object could be a meteorite. 3. Freud was a lousy geologist. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Peter Richards Gesendet: Samstag, 23. März 2013 02:17 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] A Bunch of Irregular Stones I Found (+How I Think They May Have Originated) Gary D. Matson said: "In this particular case, your pictures are not at fault. They show enough that apparently a number of experienced members here are willing to offer strong opinions (even if not always quantifying it) that what you have is not meteoritic. [If I were to put a number on my own certainty, having just looked at your pictures for the first time, I'd feel safe in pegging it at the 4-sigma level (99.994%)].: -Gary, I said "qualify," not "quantify," in case you didn't notice that. It is a suggestion. It's true that sometimes the risk of failing to qualify an argument is negligible, or "nil," and, in those cases qualifying them may seem absurd. However, "in all likelihood" isn't that difficult to write, even twice, and I think it would be a step in the right direction, in all scientific pursuits, my own included, if, everyone whether or not a designated expert, or person of great experience, were more cautious with their language. The saying goes "pride comes before the fall," and you can realize that easily, even if you haven't in fact been proven wrong, when you make a realization that you are still able to question your own idea. Maybe it is taken for granted that these are all theories, shared herein. If that's the case, what's the harm in re-stating the fact? I think everyone may be better off, even when one is rather sure, if the risk is not taken, but to each his own, regarding that. Graham Ensor said: "why ask one of most experienced group of meteorite enthusiasts and experts (all of which are passionate about helping others to search for new finds and material) for an opinion based on a visual analysis/photos of your samples if you are certain for yourself and are willing to dismiss a unanimous verdict..."if you are that certain they are meteorites then you should submit samples to an experienced university for scientific analysis -Graham, I shared the material in order to facilitate some discussion about the possibility that meteorites are depicted therein. I am not completely certain "for myself," and, in this case, haven't made the mistake of directly alleging that I am so. I was hoping for a more "scientifically" accurate conversation, as I stated. Perhaps if, for example, you cared to state explicitly that it was your opinion, you would encourage yourself to verbalize those internal processes which led to your conclusion, which, might put off a final consensus, or "unanimous verdict" as you've put it, and call for more effort in ascertaining the "truth," but with the advantage of significantly reduced chances of a reaching a "false positive" stance. For example, you might have responded to my written material as well, or anything specifically. If you wanted to help, you might have suggested why a folded portion of an outer layer of stone, revealing an inner layer of a different color, is common on non-meteorites, such as "slag", or encouraged me to photographically document that feature more attentively by opining that no such fold was clearly visible. After all, as per Doug Schmitt, (I infer) we could, possibly, be responsible for extinction of life on this planet due to a meteorite strike, or response to a meteorite-strike in the form of nuclear warfare, if we fail to appropriately qualify our assertions. Regarding the idea that I should submit samples to a university for analysis: it is a consideration, but if anyone had an "educated" and fully convincing opinion to offer here, maybe I would have been dissuaded from pursuing that, but again, I haven't ascertained that what I've seen here has been especially constructive, so I'll have to 'play it by ear.' Herer is a link to a set better documenting what apparently is a surface that's been peeled back, and which folded: http://www.flickr.com/photos/67498324@N08/8580635967/in/set-7215763306587489 0/ Peter Richards P.S. Thank you anyone who can stand me having to hone my photography skills
[meteorite-list] Happy Birthday Dirk Ross!
Happy Birthday to our bolide-reporter N°1, Dirk Ross, Tokyo! Dirk himself... http://kuerzer.de/DaDirk ...and in his office http://kuerzer.de/DaDirkhisoffice Best! Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils inFireballFragments
Conte! Brother in Faith, >"shred" much of civilization's core religious theologies.. > billions of our fellow homonids the fear that their belief systems are losing > the battle to scientific discovery I don't know, why so many should believe, that the existence of extraterrestrial life would contradict their religions. Are they theologians? Let's, Count, (leaving the striking cases of Giordano Bruno and Galilei aside, cause they were rehabilitated (neither Columbus discovered the World being round) and anyway, also the enlightened laical liberal United States execute from time to time an innocent - you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs...) Let's take our both catholic religion, cause it's easier, because it's centralistic organized and its theology and dogmae uniformly binding for the 1.2 billion members - and I have no idea, how aliens would be regarded in the various schools of theology of our brethren, the other suns of Abraham, إبراهيم, אַבְרָהָם the Jewish, the Islamic, the other christian churches, who all basically believe in the same, the Buddhists, the Hindu... I found, that Fra Consolmagno wrote a little booklet about that topic. (I don't know how well versed he is in theology, but at least he's an astronomer and working on meteorites.) Title is: "Intelligent Life in the Universe? Catholic Belief and the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life" http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506301.htm Where he finds out, that catholic belief doesn't exclude the existence of extraterrestrial (and even intelligent) life. I confess, I haven't bought that book, because Fra Consolmagno thinks, that three quarters of us collectors and of the meteorite scientists have to burn in hell. Quotation: “The question of researching meteorites gathered illegally is essentially the same (though with lower stakes) than the question of doing biological research on stem cells.” Heu, Frater!! Lacum aperuit et effodit eum et incidet in foveam quam fecit ;-) Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Count Deiro Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. März 2013 14:09 An: Mark Ford; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils inFireballFragments Hi List, Mark has said "...I can't understand this fad for claims..." that... "we have found the building blocks of life" There is no "fad" to reveal, however so unscientifically and hysterically by some in academia and the media, that we have discovered copious amounts of water on planets and moons. It is a scientific discovery that is found exciting to some, and disconcerting and threatening to others, as the evidence piles up that what was once a theory is now, because of Curiosity's right out of the box, successful, directed search, a scientific fact. Where once one could only postulate that the "building blocks of life" might be on Mars because of what we "discovered" in Nakhla, AH84001 and recent NWAs, we now we know is a fact. And that information may not be remarkable to an educated you, even though you were clueless at one point in your studies, but to the masses it is big medicine and conjures up in billions of our fellow homonids the fear that their belief systems are losing the battle to scientific discovery. And the attitude adjustment ain't going to be pretty..especialy with meteorite worshipping Islam. Incidentally, I think you've got the chicken before the egg on what came first on this orb, "building blocks" or "life". And no, you can't say that "every shred of evidence we have implies life as we know it started right here" without defining what you consider "life". Be patient just a few more sols, my friend. We are about to witness discoveries that are going to "shred" much of civilization's core religious theologies and of a much lessor importance, resolve our difference in opinion. Namaste, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils inFireballFragments
Hi Alan, >If I do remember correctly, stones falling from space was blasphemous ...no, don't believe in movies. Don't forget, that throughout the whole Middle Age's until into the 1500s in Europe the collector, keeper, translator, sponsor, communicator and instructor was the clergy. (and also remember, how many famous astronomer were also after the Enlightenment churchmen). Remember that even the stone of Ensisheim was publically displayed in the church. (Or the very precise fall observation and description of the today lost stones of Schaeftlarn by the Premonstratensians in 1722). On contrary, but that plays a role more in the folk religion (da cleric scientists were more sober), falling stones and fiery rains belonged to the inventory of the bible. (plagues of Egypt, book of relevation, Sodom & Gomorrah ect.pp). And one can observe a shift in the interpretation of natural phenomena from the 1500 to the 1600. Mainly in the popular prints. Quite all natural phenomena out-of-band, like yellow and red rains, rains of frogs, rats, fishes; earthquakes, comets, sun-dogs, halos, aurorae, sudden mass-occurrences of insects and so on were there in the 1500 still regarded as a miracles, created and sent by god as a warning, while then in the 1600 already, most of these phenomena weren't regarded as miracles anylonger, but natural scientific explained and only the circumstance that they happened was religiously interpreted. As far as the meteorites in the scientific world were concerned, there wasn't so much questioned that they fall, but rather the question was, whether they are a product of Earth or Aristotelian of the atmosphere (like it was with the comets, first parallax was taken by Tycho) and the sometimes ridiculed thing was later the suggestion by Chladni (for Doug, Jefferson), that they origin in space. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. März 2013 02:45 An: Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum; Meteorite Central; countde...@earthlink.net; meteoritem...@gmail.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils inFireballFragments I would say Mc kays theory is more plausible than Wickramasing. Mckay does make some good points, but in science, its about proof, and I think for the next 50 years or longer, science will keep it hush hush and on the lid if there is really life on Mars, because once that is out in the open, there goes religion, well some, that are based around the "all mighty being". But at any rate, I do enjoys Mckays theory, his makes since, but other scientist have argued that the fossil remains can be synthesized in the lab. Well anything can be synthesized in the lab today :). However, without these crazy ideas about life in meteorites, or fossils in Martian stones, where would we be with science in meteoritics. If I do remember correctly, stones falling from space was blasphemous, you would be shunned in the science world around the 1700's for even trying to suggest that. It all comes down to timing, technology and the meteorite that has life :) Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 ebay store http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633ny/m.html http://meteoritefalls.com/ From: Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum To: Count Deiro ; Galactic Stone & Ironworks Cc: Mike Groetz ; Meteorite List Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils inFireballFragments Really!? I didn't think anybody believed McKay's thoroughly debunked theory any more. http://www.space.com/18414-mars-meteorite-life-arctic-rocks-qanda.html Phil Whitmer - Original Message - From: "Count Deiro" To: "Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum" ; "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" Cc: "Mike Groetz" ; "Meteorite List" Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils inFireballFragments > Hi Phil, > > I haven't read Wickramasinge. I do hold stock in panspermic theory. In > particular, the findings of water, amino acids, etc. in the meteorites > I mentioned. The NASA/JPL paper "New Evidence of Life Forms in Martian > Meteorites" descibing and illustrating what seven of their best have > concluded are life forms in Nakhla and AH84001 was particularly > convincing to me. > > That SUV sized lab that we spent a few hundred million to put on Mars, > was sent there for the admitted purpose of solving our disagreement for us. > You may have watched and listened to the first report of Curiosity's > findings today streamed on the web. The Nasa team was about to pee > their pants having the opportunity to confirm that in the first > drilling of a rock on Mars, they have proven an environment existed > that would have beeen amiable to life. > > It will get better > > Regards, > > Guido > > > > -Original Message-
Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in FireballFragments
Were you in Kerala? Fred, NEVER drink from the Red Rain again! (huh it's so spooky, I think inside my extraterrestrial life form (aka "The Cat") are living terrestrial organisms...) Purple Rain, purple rain... Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von h...@meteorhall.com Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. März 2013 18:44 An: Chris Peterson Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in FireballFragments I have a true blue "FOSSIL METEORITE WITH ANCIENT FOSSIL LIFE FORMS"! Quick, call the newspapers with this wonderful headline! The meteorite is 4,786 grams and the Niton XRF on a freshly ground surface shows 11.02% Ni, 85.87% Fe, 0.89% Mn and 0.68% Cr, so it is indeed a meteorite. The fossil life forms MUST be there, as this highly weathered, very FRACTURED stony has much of the surface covered in a 1mm to 3mm mineral coating. It may have been on this planet for 20,000 years or more. YES, FOSSIL LIFE FORMS EXIST IN THIS ANCIENT METEORITE! reads the headline...too bad the fossil life forms are from earth. But what the heck, it gets one's attention, right? So, all improbable, hyperbole meteorite/meteoroid stories are hereby suspended! Fred H __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
Hi Jason, don't make the old man tired. >Please don't compare my knowledge about meteorites to Jorge's behavior. I can't compare you with Jorge, because I don't know Jorge at all. The same way like most people don't know a Jason Utas at all. And how many people will know a Jason Utas in hundred years? Have you once thought about that? And there is the big difference, between your stones and the stones who got a number. Still in hundred years, when nobody will know anymore, how and who the talented Mr.Utas jr. was, the collectors will have for their collection specimens the reference in the Bulletin and a reference mass in the once classifying institute. And that makes a difference in the collectors', the scientific and the monetary value. While your stones will have gone to nirwana, just like they never existed, cause they remained unanalyzed and unrecorded. And cause you emphasize science always so strongly. Very Practically, tell me - those, who made the destructive test with your material and those who worked on the maskelynites of your other Martians, what shall they do, if they want to publish papers about their work? They can't refer to the samples as NWA 7034 or NWA 2975 because it's not valid and incorrect. Well and if they'd write in their articles, that their research objects are said to be paired to 7034 and 2975, pers.comm. J.Utas, who visually compared them with 7034 and with photos of 2075... that would take a lot away from the weight of their results. Anyway, if you're so convinced of your meteoritic abilities, then I don't know, why you feel such an overwhelming reluctance instead to write "the specimens are paired to NWA 7034, NWA 2975" in your advertising, to use the verb "to pair" transitively and to state: "I paired the stones to NWA 7034, NWA 2975...". That would be fair towards the buyers, cause they can then decide, whether a Jason is a Jorge for them or whether a Jason is just as good as a Dr.Irving regarding Martians. However, Imagine all would act like you. Everybody being self-convinced to recognize a meteorite. I take a corner of the curbstone and due to my 30+ years lasting occupation with meteorites, I decided to be expert enough and decide it to be a silica-rich ungrouped achondrite, similar to some photos I saw, or a sedimentary limestone from Neptune, and btw. because it is my birthday date, I bestow the curbstone with the name: NWA 21370 or I name it "Heinz-Kevin". Want to say, in acting like you, why should anyone still let a meteorite classify? The Meteoritical Bulletin and the standards of the Meteoritical Society & meteoricists of meteorite classification are then absolutely obsolete. Thank you for the allowance to bring it to the IMCA. Maybe tomorrow, have to work now. Best, Martin PS: Bad try. That I quitted IMCA had more than one reason, none of them you do know. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jason Utas Gesendet: Freitag, 8. März 2013 02:00 An: Meteorite-list Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fwd: sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite Martin, Please don't compare my knowledge about meteorites to Jorge's behavior. Eric nailed this one on the head. I have a degree in geology insofar as I am currently taking structural geology to complete the degree. For all intents and purposes, I am as qualified as anyone with a relevant degree, having taken mineralogy, petrology, and field-mapping, the only required courses that involve mineral and rock identification. Most scientists who study meteorites, regardless of their degree, would not be qualified to visually pair any meteorites in the fashion that Adam described for his NWA 4880 specimens. I suppose you could try to hold me to the arbitrary "you don't have the degree on your wall yet," but I'll have it in two months. You're just attacking me ad nauseam. I don't get it. So, what constitutes an "expert" in such things? Perhaps someone with fifteen years' experience with meteorites? Someone who can look at an auction like Jorge's, see the texture of the crust, and know that it's not right? Perhaps someone who has done that sort of thing several times? I know there are other folks around who could discriminate between the relevant meteorites in those situations, but...I don't know any well-known 'scientists' who could. I've put photos of one of the NWA 7034-paired fragments on facebook. Painfully obvious that it's the same stuff. If you don't think it's enough proof, by all means take it to the IMCA. If they ask me to change the wording of anything, I suppose I'll have to. Until then, please stop quoting the rules to me. You were removed due to ethics violations, r
Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
Ach Jason, you didn't get the point yet. All you need to do, in my opinion, is to mark your two Martians as "unclassified", to replace NWA 7034 and NWA 2975 in your menu side bar and in the titles of your descriptions and ads by "NWA ", and you can call them "possible" Martians (or the subtype of these Martians) and "likely paired" with NWA 2975 and NWA 7034. (And else feel free to write what you want in your descriptions and advertising). That's already all. So they won't be mistaken anymore to be paired by a scientist or classified by a scientist or being a true part of the single NWA 2975 stone or the very lot of stones, which received the number NWA 7034. This is the standard, not I or Adam asks from you, but the IMCA. And like this such cases were handled by IMCA in past. If you don't like that or you think, that it is nonsense, then don't beat me. But then it will be better, that you quit IMCA. And to avoid, that you think, that it's a witch-hunt, I invited you, that we both ask IMCA. (Because I guess, they will tell you quite the same, as I told, if you don't know the IMCA rules yet. - and so you probably will see, that's nothing personal). But I'm asking you for that now for the 4th or 5th time. And still don't know your answer. Although I tried to lure you in, in bidding a crate of beer for the case they won't share my opinion. Best! Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
Hi Jason, Uff, slowly you seem to understand, what others smarter than we both got already from the 1st posting on. I say: - Your material has a different status than NWA 2975 and NWA 7034, especially a lower collector's (and therefore monetary) value. - You present your material in a way, which makes a possible buyer believe, that they are either part of the very stone(s) to which classifiers and the Meteoritical Society designed the numbers NWA 2975 and NWA 7034, or that they were confirmed by a professional meteorite scientist to be paired to them. - As long as you don't own a degree in that field and as long they don't undergo the formal classification and acceptationprocedures of the Meteoritical Society, you're not allowed to call them formally "paired" to these numbers, but you have to make it unmistakably clear, that this is only your personal guess. - It is good business practice to use the same conventions, how to label and name such material, like they are established among your dealers and collectors colleagues. - The way you present and describe your material breaks the binding rules of the International Meteorite Collectors Association, to which you agreed to abide as a member. In particular those, quoty quote: "If members wish to sell or trade meteoritic specimens, then those items must be 'actually and exactly what is claimed.' (Merriam-Webster-Dictionary) Our members agree to adhere to the highest standards of meteorite identification and proper labelling practices." (...) "I agree that it is the sole responsibility of each member to accurately describe meteoritic material for sale, trade or other related transactions without providing any misleading or false information." and especially (...) "I agree that unclassified 'meteorites' purchased on eBay or other avenues from unknown sellers might not be meteorites. I will not sell or trade any meteorites I may have found (or any questionable meteoritic material) unless I first obtain verification from a meteorite expert." And especially: "Verified but unclassified material should be specified as such. Meteoritical Society guidelines will prevail in the circumstance of meteorite naming and pairing" (- mean point, therefore the brackets, would be, to remind you, that for you the way that Mr. Jorge "authenticated" his pseudo-Chelyabinsk wasn't sufficient - but nothing else did you with your Martians, i.e. to trust your source and to inspect them personally. There is the danger for you, to loose credibility in attacking others..) And see, Especially the last point regarding the Code of Ethics of IMCA makes it so comfort for both of us, cause we don't have to discuss, whether those procedures are necessary or meaningful or which properties of your material made you think to be able to verify it or whether evil Martin doesn't like your nose or whether your material is authentic ect.pp. that's all not of interest, of interest is, if you fulfill the formalities the IMCA set for you (and the standard of the MetSoc and the standard among collectors, dealers, hunters, researchers) in appraising your material. To me it seems not so. To you all seems alright. And the comfort thing for us is, we don't have to decide that, but we can leave it to that organization, to decide. So that none of has to be tempted to suppose personal motivations in that question. That's why I asked you, whether you'd like to ask IMCA together with me about that case. But so far, I got no "o.k." neither a "no" from you :-( Best, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jason Utas Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2013 02:08 An: Martin Altmann; Meteorite-list Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite Martin, All, Personal jibes aside... Certainly -- I'll let others decide if this is enough information, and they're more than welcome to buy a sample to have it tested. I have no doubt that everything I'm offering is authentic, but everything I offer is of course backed by a full money-back guarantee. One that I will actually honor. I find it perhaps most amusing that you're not even saying that the samples I'm offering aren't paired with NWA 7034 or NWA 2975. If you are well familiarized with meteorites, I'm certain that you can tell that they're paired as well, from the photos alone. An analysis wouldn't tell you as much, nor would it prove the authenticity of most of the fragments that I am offering. Only a visual examination would do as much, unless you advocated polishing a side of each specimen and analyzing each one individually -- but such a burden of proof has *never* before been asked of
Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
fied stuff would use expressions similar like: "NWA " likely paired to... or possible Martian... ect. Hopefully now you understood, what my concern is. "and think this is BS because you're attacking me for things I've said to you in the past." That sentence I forgive you, due to your youth. Don't be silly, I see no reason for attacking you personally, because we have different opinions, to which extent the terrestrial history and acquired secondary properties justify, that the find rates drop, cause the private sector shall be excluded from hunting, trading and collecting. "I know for a fact that" Probably the same way like you knew it for a fact, that all NWA 7034 but yours was cut with lubrifiants, even in the research labs or that I would have been removed from IMCA... Jason, meteorite collecting is an affair, which requires a certain degree of accuracy. There it is often not the best way, to transport hear-say as own factual knowledge. Cheers! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Jason Utas [mailto:meteorite...@gmail.com] Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. März 2013 09:29 An: Michael Bross Cc: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite Hello Michael, Martin, Adam, On the contrary, in this case, scores of stones have been recovered of each meteorite, and it is no longer reasonable to donate samples of each. I know for a fact that the both of you (Martin, Adam) haven't analyzed each and every stone that you've bought that was paired to NWA 2975, so where is the line drawn? If you haven't analyzed every piece, I'm assuming that you have some way of analytically confirming the authenticity of every fragment you've offered, given your statements. Should I give a lab a single fragment to analyze, and assume the rest are real because the lab has confirmed it? If that's the case, I would gladly sell the fragment in the lot I purchased that wasn't paired with NWA 7034 -- as NWA 7034. After all, the lot of fragments would be paired with NWA 7034 via analysis. Or did you donate samples from each Tissint that both of you bought? I know at least Martin sold quite a bit of it, but I have the feeling that he didn't donate 20% of his acquisitions. Adam, I assume you bought some. Since the stones *could* have been similar finds, why didn't you follow the procedure with that meteorite? Or is that meteorite so obviously all 'the same' that it wasn't done? When can someone decide that? No, I'm sorry, guys. If it's one or two stones and they could be distinct meteorites, sure. NWA 2975 was thousands of small stones, and we can all recognize the fusion crust, shock veins, and maskelynite grains. NWA 7034 and pairings have a brecciated texture just as unique. And since I already have analytical data confirming the 2975 (and will soon have the data on the 7034 pairing), I get the cheap shots from you dealers, but...eh. I get it. You're not even questioning the material, either of you. You're just saying that I need to donate the 20% tax despite the fact that the stones are all obviously paired to their respective rocks. I both disagree with you two -- and think this is BS because you're attacking me for things I've said to you in the past. Jason On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Michael Bross wrote: > Dear Martin, Jason and List > > First, Martin, I love your highly spirited answer to Jason. > Jason, as Martin says (and respects you)... you both should smoke the > "peace pipe"... > > I am following this list because I love meteorites, although I am > barely buying any... maybe I will in the future. > (I love pallasites... but sooo expensive...) > > This is a great back and forth exchange which gets to the core of some > really technical but real aspect of dealing with classifying, selling > etc... > > So... hope you solve your momentary "quarrel" > > Cheers > Michael B. (a meteorite fan from France) > > > -- > From: "Martin Altmann" > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 6:28 PM > To: > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite > >> Hiho Jason, >> >> not at all, I haven't any likely NWA 7034 at hand (nor would I have >> original NWA 7034 at hand, to compare), neither any leftover of NWA >> 4766 an official NWA 2975 pairing, whereof all stones were looked >> through by a meteorite scientist. >> (and anyway, how could you think that about me, tststs shame on you. >> Anyway >> I was out of biz for more than a year now, due to a disease and it >> will take a while until my little star will raise again to sparkle >> between the sta
Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
at have since been put on the market. It simply doesn't make sense. But, I've already said this. You just ignored it. Same goes for most of the rest of my last email. I'll let you know about the results from the analysis here at school if you're so curious. As I said, we already confirmed the NWA 2975 analytically, so forgive me if I don't take the time to respond to your repetitive points. Never mind the fact that I probably shouldn't be taking advice on how to stay in the IMCA from someone who got himself removed as you did. Jason On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Martin Altmann wrote: > Yes, Yep, Yeah Jason! > > You forget always, how old I am.. A more proper answer would have been: > "Thank you for bringing it to my attention, I'll correct it." > > I remember that in my active time in the IMCA-board such cases like > yours were the most common complaints filed against members. The > solution isn't a big thing, usually the board commended to the > indicted to use those simple > terms: > An "unclassified" in a prominent position and "likely" and "possible". > > You know, you have to give to the potential buyer the proper > information as a base for him to make his decision. > Your stones are unclassified according the guidelines of the > Meteoritical Society and the Code of Ethics of the IMCA, Regarding the > latter you have to indicate that. > > Whether a collector or buyer concedes to you sufficient experience and > competence to identify your samples by your own correctly, you have > simply to leave to him. > > I wouldn't have wrote that, if not already a case had happened, > showing that your advertizing of the possible 7034 pairing can be misleading. > After the fuss in media around NWA 7034 a not yet so experienced > German collector found your offerings and was convinced to get a true > part of the original NWA 7034 stones. > > You've to put yourself in the position of the various collectors, not > all are content with the intrinsic properties of the material itself, > to some it adds a lot to such a sample, to print out the articles from > the media and to be able to show his specimen to others while pointing > on a photo in these articles, being able to say, from this very stone my sample was taken from. > > Also you will confess, if asked by a collector, which stone he shall choose: > That one from an unnumbered group, not listed in the Bulletin, of a > likely pairing of NWA 2975 at 500$/g or that one from a grouplet > officially classified and with an own number designed at 500$/g, > you'll commend him the latter, as you know the techniques and the > customs of meteorite collecting. > > So that collector asked in a forum, what the members would think about > your offer. > (I wished, that someone else than me would have given an answer to > him, (but the others were inert.) cause now I gave the opportunity to > a member there to continue to knit his favourite legend, that the > incarnate evil strikes again to annihilate the world's dealership) > > Well and I answered him, that he should ask you again, whether your > share will be officially classified or not. > And told him, that if for him more the material itself is important, > he can buy it, as I rely in your abilities to recognize it, though if > he cares for later swaps, sales ect. that, what I had written in the last posting. > And that's up to him, to decide. > (Another member added an understandable opinion, that if a meteorite > costs 10k$ a gram, the collector could expect, that it had been > properly classified). > > Btw. meteorites do not travel only in space, but from collection to > collection. > How easily that NWA-numbers you use in your description can later slip > on the label, mislabeling the specimen. > > Anyway, > if a classification would make your material more expensive, is not of > interest for a collector neither whether a material is too common and > recognizable for you personally (an argument which that Jorge could > have used too) He needs only the proper information about the status > of the material to be able to make his decisions. > > And anyway, > Whether meaningful or not, these are the rules, which you signed to > obey, when you joined that club of IMCA. > > Well in that sense, I think, that club would certainly advise you to > change your advertizing in the manner I explained to you. > > Best! > Martin > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von > Jason Utas > Gesendet: Samstag, 2. März
Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
hile you may not examine prices carefully, a few weeks ago, the standard price for NWA 7034 was $20,000-30,000 per gram for pieces less than a half gram or so. Only pieces in the gram+ range were as little as $10,000 per gram. I started my pricing at $10,000 per gram and went down to $5,000 per gram for larger pieces. My prices were a fraction of the advertised price for these stones, and unless other dealers have dropped their prices by ~50% or more, my prices are still lower. So, yes, my specimens are priced at a fraction of what other specimens are (or were) priced at. I haven't looked around in the past week or so, but I assume that's still true. Since I paid just over five times as much per gram for this material as I have for any other meteorite from NWA, I think that's fair. Why donating 20 grams or 20% of the material would enable me to raise prices by 50% to 300% is beyond my comprehension, though. I donated a fragment of the NWA 2975 lot to destructive research at UC Berkeley; it was mechanically destroyed, and the maskelynite crystals were removed for several Ar dating runs (which did agree with the conclusions reached by other dating methods for NWA 2975). Of course, since those stones could also have come from different locations, in theory, I would need to cut or break each one to confirm it, right? Even the ones that weigh 0.1-0.2 grams. By and large, I try to be reasonable with such things. Where do you draw the line between a large find like Taza or NWA 869 and something like NWA 2975? NWA 801? Each of these meteorites are now examples of large finds with hundreds, if not thousands, of individuals on the market. As such, I thought NWA 2975 would be a fine name to use. Everyone knows it, the stones are easily recognizable, and there is already much of it in labs waiting to be studied. http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/antmet/mmc/NWA2975.pdf I accurately describe TKW's to the best of my knowledge and describe things as fully as I can on my website so that there is no potential for misinformation. The vast majority of our stones are individually analyzed. The only stones on the website that have not been analyzed -- yet, that I would be willing to say have an official number on our website -- are NWA 2975. It's too common and easily recognizable to bother. Regards, Jason On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Martin Altmann wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > no offense, but only a remark. > You're always pretty fast, when it's about blaming sellers to be > dishonest or fraudulent. > In my personal opinion that doesn't fit directly well together with > some offerings on your webpage. > For instance some of the Martians, > there it is not directly clear for the reader, whether the specimens, > which you reckon to be paired to "black beauty" - NWA > 7034 are parts of the original stones, which were numbered or whether > they will be still classified and will receive an own NWA number or > whether they were told by a scientist to be paired and remain > unnumbered or whether it's your personal opinion based on your experience. > > Same to some extent with the obviously unclassified stones, where you > use the number NWA 2975 (which was one single stone) in the menu side bar. > > In my eyes that is problematical. > It seems to be a classical "self-pairing", which should be a no-go for > IMCA-members. > > But especially it's somewhat not so fine for the not yet so > experienced collectors, as they often are not aware, that such > unclassified stones will have later in case they want to swap or trade > them once, do have a remarkably lower collector's and trade value - > thus a lower monetary value than their officially recognized and > numbered comrades. > > Neither the latter is evident for the naïve beginner, if he reads your > prices. > The unclassified ones, which you relate to NWA 7034 cost around > 10,000$/g on your pages and also the supposed NWA 2975-pairing are not > different in price than the specimens sold by more professional > collectors and dealers, who took the time and costs to get their share > of that meteorite properly classified and numbered. > > I think, it would be more respectable and fair towards the collectors > and laypeople (and to your seller colleagues), if you would make more > unmistakably clear, that those stones are possibly paired to the > numbers you give there, based on your personal opinion as a > non-scientist and perhaps to adjust the prices. (for the rookies, > unclassified self-guesses have always to be cheaper than official > numbers from the Bulletin, because, se above, they do have a lower > value in the usances of the meteorite scene and because they have > lower costs for the seller, cause for a classification you
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Black Market (Weather Channel)
Hi yo, I wonder, why authors of such articles never mention, that the participants in that black market are extraordinarily simple minded people. Sittin as a hermit retreated in a cell in the Schaeftlarn monastery trying to get my annual tax declaration ready within less than 4 weeks, I asked myself, why so many people are willing to take the stress of working 60-80 hours a week for meteorites, undercover and in highly criminal circles, taking the risk of decades long imprisonment or even death penalty, like if they would deal with heroin or would smuggle plutonium, when there are only a few single splendid examples of that pack, whose revenues constantly exceed the salary (and pension plan) of a middle school teacher? I guess, they must be either really desperate or remarkably stupid. In former times I thought, such stories would originate from curators coming home, telling them to their wives/husbands to impress them what for a exciting and dangerous job they would have, hoping their better halves would tolerate when Indiana Jones or Lara Croft leaves his/her socks on in bed... but now? To me it seems, that in general the U.S. print media have lost a lot of quality and standards, or at least whenever I'm in USA, I'm astonished how poor the newspapers are compared to European ones. Here in Germany, but also in Austria I've read a lot of really excellent pieces about meteorites in the bigger newspapers, and as far as I remember (also in TV) the monetary aspects never was pointed out and of course that illegality-BS neither. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic Stone & Ironworks Gesendet: Samstag, 2. März 2013 21:46 An: Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum Cc: meteorite list Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Black Market (Weather Channel) Someone please tell me where the "Black Market" is. I would love to see it. Is it an unmarked building in the industrial district of Chicago? What is the code word to gain entry through the forbidden Naugahyde Door? If there is a meteorite black market, then it must be the most highly-kept secret in the world, along with the location of Jimmy Hoffa's body and the identity of the second gunman who shot JFK. I hear every second tuesday of the month is "Forbidden Meteorite Day", and all shoppers get a free Berduc stone and a pack of Katol Menthol Light 100's. Best regards, MikeG FWIW - there are MANY more crooked writers than there are meteorite dealers. Look how many writers get outed for plagiarism nowadays, and compare that number to the population of disgraced meteorite dealers - the writers win that dubious distinction with ease. On 3/2/13, Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum wrote: > An article from the Weather Channel entitled: "Meteor Fragments Hot on > the Black Market." > > http://www.weather.com/news/meteor-cleanup-20130218 > > > Phil Whitmer > Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum > > __ > > Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
Hi Jason, no offense, but only a remark. You're always pretty fast, when it's about blaming sellers to be dishonest or fraudulent. In my personal opinion that doesn't fit directly well together with some offerings on your webpage. For instance some of the Martians, there it is not directly clear for the reader, whether the specimens, which you reckon to be paired to "black beauty" - NWA 7034 are parts of the original stones, which were numbered or whether they will be still classified and will receive an own NWA number or whether they were told by a scientist to be paired and remain unnumbered or whether it's your personal opinion based on your experience. Same to some extent with the obviously unclassified stones, where you use the number NWA 2975 (which was one single stone) in the menu side bar. In my eyes that is problematical. It seems to be a classical "self-pairing", which should be a no-go for IMCA-members. But especially it's somewhat not so fine for the not yet so experienced collectors, as they often are not aware, that such unclassified stones will have later in case they want to swap or trade them once, do have a remarkably lower collector's and trade value - thus a lower monetary value than their officially recognized and numbered comrades. Neither the latter is evident for the naïve beginner, if he reads your prices. The unclassified ones, which you relate to NWA 7034 cost around 10,000$/g on your pages and also the supposed NWA 2975-pairing are not different in price than the specimens sold by more professional collectors and dealers, who took the time and costs to get their share of that meteorite properly classified and numbered. I think, it would be more respectable and fair towards the collectors and laypeople (and to your seller colleagues), if you would make more unmistakably clear, that those stones are possibly paired to the numbers you give there, based on your personal opinion as a non-scientist and perhaps to adjust the prices. (for the rookies, unclassified self-guesses have always to be cheaper than official numbers from the Bulletin, because, se above, they do have a lower value in the usances of the meteorite scene and because they have lower costs for the seller, cause for a classification you have to supply the institute with a share of 20% or 20grams of the meteorite for free and sometimes you have to pay a part of the classification costs too). And last but not least, that would give more weight to your words, when you doubt the reliability of other sellers in public. (Take for instance the case now, where it seems for you not enough authentication, when the seller of the probable pseudo-Chelyabinsk told, that his source assured, that they are authentic. - with the 2975 and 7034 you did just the same, didn't you?). As told, no offence intended, only a suggestion for an improvement. (Remark to Uruacu vs. Campo. Uruacu has also much more troilite blobs than Campo). Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von jason utas Gesendet: Freitag, 1. März 2013 05:32 An: Meteorite-list Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite Hello Adam, All, Actually, Uruacu does appear to be distinct from Campo del Cielo. Uruacu appears to be a much older meteorite that has weathered in different conditions, and many individuals show cohenite when cut -- a mineral I have never seen in Campo del Cielo. Generally speaking, Campos run the full range from freshly-fusion crusted to rusty lumps, and everything in-between. But, Campo fell within the past ~5,000 years, so we're talking about rapid weathering in a wet environment (also why it's a ruster). Uruacu fell in a drier area, and most individuals exhibit a much more uniform covering of shale that does not readily flake off due to rusting. They seem to have fallen much longer ago, and are generally more weathered due to the fact that they've been around for longer. Uruacu generally resists rusting better. It would be like comparing Sikhote Alin to Henbury. No Henburies I know of rust, but, by and large, they're not as fresh as most Sikhotes. But some Sikhotes appear to have fallen into swampy areas and look pretty bad -- and rust. It's hard to mix the two up. The trouble is that I've also seen Campos sold as Uruacu, which complicates things. Uruacu is a very old fall. Even some reputable dealers have been selling specimens of "new Campo" (crust, regmaglypts) as Uruacu. Very different. I assume this is due to dishonest suppliers. There's a stunning, fairly large Uruacu for sale at the moment. Not mine, but I wonder if this will bring it out of the woodwork. Regards, Jason > From: Adam Hupe > Date: Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:59 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite > To: Adam > > > > Isn't Baygorria another meteorite with a fake provenan
Re: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites (Guardian data blog)
And Kloster Schäftlarn has wrong coordinates, it lies a little to the South of Munich. - A couple problems. I suppose you mean the Meteoritical Society, not the Meteorological Society, since we are talking about meteorites not weather. Also, there should be a red dot in Alsace, eastern France, where the Ensisheim meteorite fell in 1492. Besides that, this map is a great idea. Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com impact...@aol.com -Original Message- From: Rich Atkinson To: meteorite-list Sent: Fri, Feb 15, 2013 10:23 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] Interactive map of all known meteorites (Guardian data blog) "Every meteorite fall on earth mapped Or at least those we know about. And where are the known meteorite landing places on earth? These impact zones show where scientists have found meteorites, or the impact craters of meteorites, some dating back as far as the year 2,300BC. The data is from the US Meteorological Society and doesn't show those places where meteorites may have fallen but not been discovered" http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2013/feb/15/meteorite-fa ll-map rich __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Doug Schmitt's Talk at TEDxVancouver on 21st October 2012
Hi, maybe it would make more sense to address Mr.Schmitt personally? To ask him, to make his homework first, before he gets up on the golden soap box. It seems to me, that after a full dozen of years, he still hasn't read yet the laws, he "interpreted" in his paper he had published then. The simple mistakes he made there, regarding the laws of Switzerland, New Zealand, India, (probably Denmark too) And especially regarding the 1970 UNESCO convention, were several times here demonstrated on the list by means of the original texts and wordings of the respective laws. But whether it could make sense, I doubt it, because to me it seems, that Mr.Schmitt doesn't know, that he is selling his own (in those above mentioned cases invalid) interpretations of laws and not the real existing laws themselves. Furthermore it will be difficult, as I fear, the basic information in that area are still unknown to Mr.Schmitt (and that after so long time), when I hear him his speech starting in claiming that most meteorites would be found in Antarctica. This is definitely untrue, most meteorites were found in Sahara desert. He doesn't know the concept of pairing (on average 5 of the Antarctic meteorites are paired with each other) and he doesn't know the difference between the Antarctic field numbering system and the NWA, Dho, DaG and so on numbering process. Neither he knows, that the main load of ordinary weathered and equilibrated chondrites recovered in Sahara, doesn't appear in the Bulletins, cause they are of so low scientific use and interest, that they aren't classified and numbered, but exceed by far the finds from Sahara given in the Bulletins. Well and that private collectorship and trade would be harmful, that he should prove by speaking with the curators of the big institutional collections and in studying the annals of these institutes, where in past and today their meteoritic inventory was acquired from. That said, I personally admire Schmitt to be so keen, to hold such public lessons, as in principle he is risking that his reputation as an attorney could be damaged, if some true experts in that area would report the real facts. Not my cup of tea. (IMCA I think, wouldn't be at the moment the right organization to write an answer, as they are still searching for the stand and their binding position towards laws.) Only my private opinion. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mendy Ouzillou Gesendet: Donnerstag, 7. Februar 2013 08:07 An: Yinan Wang Cc: Adam; MEM Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Doug Schmitt's Talk at TEDxVancouver on 21st October 2012 Common sense advice - love it. Will have to do that soon as I'm getting up way to early to catch my flight to Tucson. :-) Mendy Ouzillou __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] WG: AD: Largest Imilchil Selection (New Iron Meteorite)
Hi Mike: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2003.JPG Tons of Neumann Lines, a lot of schreibersite (large crystals down to rhabdites). Thus either hexahedrite, coarsest octahedrite or even IIG is possible. Best. FCM -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Farmer Gesendet: Montag, 4. Februar 2013 07:47 An: Ruben Garcia Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] AD: Largest Imilchil Selection (New Iron Meteorite) Has it been etched? Curious what it looks like inside. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPad On Feb 3, 2013, at 11:36 PM, Ruben Garcia wrote: > Hi List, > > The new Iron meteorite from Morocco, called Imilchil was found in > December 2012 and just made it to Tucson, where I purchased all I > could find and now offer the largest selection of specimens to you. > > The specimens I have feature a natural patina and as far as I know I'm > the only one here with larger (up to a kilo) size specimens. > > Prices start at only $2 per gram! > http://www.mrmeteorite.com/imilchilnewiron.htm > > > -- > Rock On! > > Ruben Garcia > http://www.MrMeteorite.com > __ > > Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] European Meteorite Artifacts
Good day, you haven't always to visit to the American natives, the Inuit or the old Pharaohs for such stuff: http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/2004M%26PSA..39..151K/151.000.h tml Now I know, why never a photo of the bracelets and the axe was available, they were interim lost. Though the fate which happened to the bracelets: OMG: B a r b a r i a n s!!! (Hummhem, the two other objects... sounds doubtful to me). Best! Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: USPS price increase: international = crazy increase!
True Mike! Here you have a view of my office, just before I switched from Sinclair ZX 81 to a Commodore 64. http://kuerzer.de/homeoffice1983 * Btw. do you know also this sudden and strange feeling, when you're watching else excellent thrillers from the 1970s and early eighties, when then it comes unavoidably to a scene playing in the police department? The desks! They are empty! Only a lamp, sometimes a typewriter - some paper.. and such strange wooden sticks...hm so called "pencils", one or two black phones with dial plates. A metal filing cabinet in the corner. A water dispenser. Wastepaper basket. City map on the wall with pins. Coatrack. Uh how could they live and work then? And what shall the children think? I guess for them it's the same feeling, like when we had watched Buster Keaton, Fats Arbuckle, Ben Turpin movies... Gosh are w ld, Mike! And now I'll calculate your bill, Guess with what for an instrument? With a Casio fx-100. What a quality! It works still perfectly after 30 years. That's what I call true sustainability! Best! Martin *huh, nice recovery, look at the model in the centre, Ah now we know, where the architects took the ideas for the Burj Khalifa from!! -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritem...@gmail.com] Gesendet: Montag, 28. Januar 2013 18:35 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] OT: USPS price increase: international = crazy increase! Hi Martin and List, Oh I do remember the good old days. When important people carried beepers and they were still dime payphones on every corner. I could fuel my gashog Camaro at 83 cents a gallon and a pack of Marlboros was $1.75. A movie ticket was $3. Minimum wage was $3.35 an hour at my first job. The internet didn't yet exist and I downloaded software from dial-up BBS's at 300 baud. It would take all night, sometimes 8-10 hours, just to download a game that took up two floppy disks. One hiccup of line noise and the whole thing had to be scrapped and re-downloaded. Rotary phone in the kitchen that had a long coiled cord that could be stretched halfway across the house and through two doorways was usually my "internet connection". The handset would be unplugged and the cord plugged into the modem. How many people remember the old IRC's? International Reply Coupons. These were once standard fare when making small purchases from overseas vendors - typically used when requesting a catalog to be mailed out. An ever-dwindling number of dealers still use snail mail to send out offerings, but it's a practice that is dying out. I still appreciate it though and love receiving them. And yes, yes, and yes - I want one of those Meteorite Super Trump card decks before they are all gone. Send me a PayPal invoice. :) Now, if this was 1986, I'd press "Send" and this email would take about 10 minutes to send, line by line. LOL. And it wasn't called "email" then, it was simply a message. Best regards, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 1/28/13, Martin Altmann wrote: > But, Mike, other things became remarkably cheap. > > Imagine, you'd have to do all your e-mail traffic in form of paper letters, > and if it's urgent to pay a.. a... a "telegram". full stop. > Or to print your assortment lists and to send them by mail out. > Oops sorry, to type them first by typewriter and to "hectograph" them > (cool, > my English dictionary hasn't that word anymore). > Huh, we had then even extra-thin paper for airmail-letters. > > ...like it was common practice still far into the 1990s. > > If I would do so, I easily would pay 15-20k$ a year only for buying stamps! > > Or, hihihi, do you remember the first cellular phones? > These where you had still to carry a suitcase under the other arm? > And where the people and we laughed so much about the cockalorums, when > they > ostentatiously screamed on the street in the handset: I'm just this moment > walking on that and that road.. > > Oops. Have to explain to the kiddies, why that was so funny: > At those times then, the phone was at home. If you called somebody and a > person was not answering, you knew that that person was not at home. And if > he answered, you hadn't to ask, where he is and what he's doing, because > you > knew, that he's home and is speaking on the phone. Hence it was a > zero-information. > And dear childr
Re: [meteorite-list] OT: USPS price increase: international = crazy increase!
But, Mike, other things became remarkably cheap. Imagine, you'd have to do all your e-mail traffic in form of paper letters, and if it's urgent to pay a.. a... a "telegram". full stop. Or to print your assortment lists and to send them by mail out. Oops sorry, to type them first by typewriter and to "hectograph" them (cool, my English dictionary hasn't that word anymore). Huh, we had then even extra-thin paper for airmail-letters. ...like it was common practice still far into the 1990s. If I would do so, I easily would pay 15-20k$ a year only for buying stamps! Or, hihihi, do you remember the first cellular phones? These where you had still to carry a suitcase under the other arm? And where the people and we laughed so much about the cockalorums, when they ostentatiously screamed on the street in the handset: I'm just this moment walking on that and that road.. Oops. Have to explain to the kiddies, why that was so funny: At those times then, the phone was at home. If you called somebody and a person was not answering, you knew that that person was not at home. And if he answered, you hadn't to ask, where he is and what he's doing, because you knew, that he's home and is speaking on the phone. Hence it was a zero-information. And dear children, so it is still today! It makes no sense to call or to send an SMS to ask, where the other would be at the moment or to report where you are. Because if you're waiting for someone, it doesn't help you to know, whether he's in the supermarket, on a baseball field or on the road, Becauuse he comes, when he comes. All other information is irrelevant. Would be interesting to know, with how many billions the private consumption could be risen, if people would stop sending these empty information, where they are at the moment and what they are doing at the moment, wouldn't it? Alas, Children, we survived these old times, without problems. On contrary, it wasn't so stressing and stroboscopic like today. Today we suffered horrible deformations. Look at me, I get already impatient, because I'm waiting for Mike's decision for 12 hours only, although he is at the moment 10,000 miles away from me, and where we would have sent then letters forth and back for the same thing, which would have taken easily 3 weeks. Skol Martin PS: Iiiieeek! German collectors have not only to pay import-VAT on the meteorites sent fom non-EU, but also on the postage! That's mean, cause in Germany buying stamps is VAT-free. Always those communists (PPS: To Adam I say, make money not war, then it works also with the states-budget again ;-) PPS: By the way, I'm sitting at the moment in front of my computer and I'm typing this posting... ;-) -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic Stone & Ironworks Gesendet: Montag, 28. Januar 2013 16:12 An: Adam Hupe Cc: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] OT: USPS price increase: international = crazy increase! My local clerk gave me a heads-up about this hike last week. It still sucks though. Gripe +1. This is just another cost that dealers will have to pass along to collectors. A while back, I stopped using boxes to ship Riker displays. Now I wrap them up in a double-layer of padding and put them into a bubble-mailer. This saves several ounces on weight and a few dollars on postage. There is a higher risk of breakage now, but thankfully none have been broken so far. I'll replace the occasional damaged one when the situation arises, so it's worth it to keep the overall costs down a bit. The international increase is the worst part. I ship a lot of First Class International packages to places like Canada and the UK. Some of these could be shipped for $4 or less. Heck, a small bubble mailer to Canada often cost under $3 and was cheaper than sending the same package to Hawaii or Alaska. I guess that has changed now. It's bad enough the customs short form now requires 10 minutes of standing in line for each package, and now this. Like Adam said - I recall the early days of Flat Rate shipping (not that long ago actually), and while the cost has gone up, the amount or quality of service paid for has not. It's the same as most consumer goods or services over the last decade - less for more. Best regards, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 1/28/13, Adam Hupe wrote: > This is typical of USPS and Government in general. Give absolutely no > warning of impending price or tax increases and make decisions at the last > possible second. There are going to be a lot of shocked taxpayers once they >
Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011
A keen hypothesis if you refer to the Meteorite Men Show, Adam. The introduction of explicit and sometimes restricting meteorite laws, Hence those of Algeria, Argentina, Australia, Botswana, Canada, Denmark, Namibia, New Zealand, Lesotho, (Oman), Poland, The Philippines, Slovakia, Swaziland, South Africa others I don't know (neither yet the wordings of the Algerian...) predate that show. Only the newer U.S.-regulations not. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 17:25 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011 Unfortunately, lawmakers and bureaucrats watch these shows and base decisions upon them as stated by the BLM in their last public writings. Old-time treasure hunters and clubs are up-in-arms over the new cable show called "Diggers". These two idiots are breaking the cardinal rule of keeping quite, undoing all of the hard work treasure hunters have spent decades repairing. It looks like history is repeating itself in my old avocation. I have been asked to rejoin my old club called "Cascade Treasure Hunters" in order to let these rookies know that they are considered outcasts. They took it upon themselves to coin all new terms like "Juice", "Civ", Riv" and "Nector". No real advocate of amateur or professional treasure hunting would be caught dead using this baby-talk in the field. Happy Hunting, Adam - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011 But it was reported also here on the list, that in the Farmer/Ward trial the court decided that the mining decree wasn't violated? Btw. I can't find the decree anymore on web for free. Only for buying at 80$ tststs strange country, where you have to pay first to know, whether you act legally or illegally. And since when does the meteorite world take the press for a reliable source of information? Best, Martin, Who never read the NYT again ;-) -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic Stone & Ironworks Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 16:49 An: Paul H. Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011 In other words - "foreign hunters beware." Nobody wants to see a nation plundered of it's resources - but closing off the strewnfields to the majority of hunters and arbitrarily enforcing the laws is not doing science, collectors, or Oman any good. Best regards and happy huntings, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 1/27/13, Paul H. wrote: > Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011 MENAFN, Muscat > Daily, January 25, 2103 > http://www.menafn.com/menafn/1093602529/--Oman-contributed-16-of-worlds-mete orite-finds-2011?src=RSS > > Note that this article states: > > "''Now, export of any kind of rock is prohibited unless > authorised by the relevant authority,'' he said." > > and > > "Oman's Mining Law, The Mining Law issued by Royal Decree No 27/2003, > prohibits the practice of all rock and mineral and exploratory > activities and trading in the same without obtaining permission from > the Directorate General of Minerals." > > Some other older articles. > > Experts study meteorites, Oman Observer Mon, 17 December 2012 > http://main.omanobserver.om/node/133724 > > Oman is major site for meteor discovery (Country was second only to > Antarctica in meteor finds until 2007) Emirates 24/7, October 19, 2010 > http://www.emirates247.com/news/oman-is-major-site-for-meteor-discovery-2010 -10-19-1.306190 > > Searching for Meteorites in the Deserts of Oman by Simon Mitton, Live > Science, May 18, 2009 > http://www.livescience.com/3613-searching-meteorites-deserts-oman.html > > Related papers are: > > Korotev, R. L., 2012, Lunar meteorites from Oman. > Meteoritics & Planetary Science, vol. 47, no 8, pp. 1365–1402 (August > 2012) > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1945-5100.2012.01393.x/abstract > > H
Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011
>The real question is - what exactly does the Omani law(s) state Hi Mike, Perhaps the IMCA knows? Look: http://www.muscatdaily.com/Archive/Oman/IMCA-seeks-clarity-over-laws-on-mete orite-trade >It's obvious to all how Oman is viewing the meteorite market now. I assume like in any other country too: They're viewing it not at all. I mean, we're speaking about meteorites, don't forget that. And no sane mind except a little handful of collectors and researchers on the globe cares about such stuff. So no reason for hysteria. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic Stone & Ironworks Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 17:13 An: Adam Hupe Cc: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011 I will continue to offer Omani meteorites when the opportunity arises. Ghubara is a good example. The current lawmakers and enforcers in Oman weren't born yet when Ghubara was recovered and distributed. Or, they were still suckling on the teat. That meteorite, and many others, are effectively grandfathered into legal collections. If I was offering such meteorites, I wouldn't be worried. There is no need to lawyer-up just because you have a few Omani meteorites in your collection.yet. Until US authorities decide to openly meddle further into the market, we have not reached a tipping point where we have to worry about arrest for simply collecting rocks (celestial rocks, but rocks nonetheless). It's obvious to all how Oman is viewing the meteorite market now. But that does not legally address past Omani meteorites or recoveries. One cannot arbitrarily enforce a new interpretation of law to make it retroactive for decades and expect every other nation to follow suit. What the Omanis want and what is legal under international and national laws are completely different and confusing things that are not specifically addressed under any law by most nations. Now, what dealers and hunters will do is obvious and expected - they are going to start avoiding Omani meteorites like the plague. Adam is taking a prudent and safe approach, but I think it's too early to start ringing the alarm bells and tossing out the Omani stones from our collections. The real question is - what exactly does the Omani law(s) state and how are they enforced? The recent affair in 2010 was a hot mess that still doesn't make any legal sense. They might be saying on thing to the world, but their own courts apparently don't agree. On 1/27/13, Adam Hupe wrote: > Luckily, all my offerings from Oman predate this royal decree or were > covered under one of three permits issued to the Germans. Once I am > sold out, I will no longer offer meteorites from Oman. We can ad > meteorites from the United States which I will no longer be > restocking. I never thought I would see the day when meteorites like > Gold Basin, Jellen and Franconia would be considered illegal contraband. > > This is a distributing trend that will continue due to the > popularization of meteorites in the press and on cable TV. > > Happy Hunting, > > Adam > __ > > Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011
But it was reported also here on the list, that in the Farmer/Ward trial the court decided that the mining decree wasn't violated? Btw. I can't find the decree anymore on web for free. Only for buying at 80$ tststs strange country, where you have to pay first to know, whether you act legally or illegally. And since when does the meteorite world take the press for a reliable source of information? Best, Martin, Who never read the NYT again ;-) -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic Stone & Ironworks Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013 16:49 An: Paul H. Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011 In other words - "foreign hunters beware." Nobody wants to see a nation plundered of it's resources - but closing off the strewnfields to the majority of hunters and arbitrarily enforcing the laws is not doing science, collectors, or Oman any good. Best regards and happy huntings, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 1/27/13, Paul H. wrote: > Oman contributed 16% of world's meteorite finds in 2011 > MENAFN, Muscat Daily, January 25, 2103 > http://www.menafn.com/menafn/1093602529/--Oman-contributed-16-of-worlds-mete orite-finds-2011?src=RSS > > Note that this article states: > > "''Now, export of any kind of rock is prohibited unless > authorised by the relevant authority,'' he said." > > and > > "Oman's Mining Law, The Mining Law issued by Royal > Decree No 27/2003, prohibits the practice of all rock > and mineral and exploratory activities and trading in > the same without obtaining permission from the > Directorate General of Minerals." > > Some other older articles. > > Experts study meteorites, Oman Observer > Mon, 17 December 2012 > http://main.omanobserver.om/node/133724 > > Oman is major site for meteor discovery (Country > was second only to Antarctica in meteor finds > until 2007) Emirates 24/7, October 19, 2010 > http://www.emirates247.com/news/oman-is-major-site-for-meteor-discovery-2010 -10-19-1.306190 > > Searching for Meteorites in the Deserts of Oman > by Simon Mitton, Live Science, May 18, 2009 > http://www.livescience.com/3613-searching-meteorites-deserts-oman.html > > Related papers are: > > Korotev, R. L., 2012, Lunar meteorites from Oman. > Meteoritics & Planetary Science, vol. 47, no 8, > pp. 13651402 (August 2012) > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1945-5100.2012.01393.x/abstract > > Hofmann, B. A., E. Gnos, A. Al-Kathiri, and A. J. T. Jull, > 2006, Meteorite accumulation surfaces in Oman: Main > results of Omani-Swiss meteorite search campaigns, > 2001-2006. 4th Swiss Geoscience Meeting, Bern 2006. > http://geoscience-meeting.scnatweb.ch/sgm2006/SGM06_abstracts/08_OS_Min_Pet/ Hofmann_Beda_Talk_or_Poster.pdf > > Best wishes, > > Paul H. > __ > > Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 7034
Hmmm then maybe Maghrebinite ? :-) -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Prof. Zelimir Gabelica Université de Haute Alsace ENSCMu, Gesendet: Samstag, 26. Januar 2013 23:48 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 7034 Maroccoite is also close to the mineral Marokite (CaMn2O4) already named to honor the occurrence (Morocco or "Maroc" in French) Berberite carry many favorable arguments however that name is very close to the mineral Berborite (a BERyllium BORate)... But I agree the NWA countries should be honored. Other suggestions ? Zelimir -- Prof. Zelimir Gabelica Université de Haute Alsace ENSCMu, Lab. LPI-GSEC, 3, Rue A. Werner, F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] FCM: AD-add: New Imilchil-iron Budget-Individuals
Hello there, well, in some cultures the new week starts on Saturday (and we will be good boys&girls and will be quiet the necessary following days) but the initial Ad is already sold out and we were asked for more of the new iron recovery. So excuse us, that we post now additional specimens. They get smaller and smaller, hence this time for really every collector something suitable should to be found. For the newer collectors (all others please: ignore.) Of course we do have Paypal. Ordering from Europe is not dangerous (we do that since many, many years and since thousands of meteorite specimens), shipping to U.S. takes usually 7 +/-2 working days. We understand and speak (tolerably at least) English and the Boss of the FC Meteorite House has even an IMCA-number. (#3503) - so all in all it doesn't need much confidence to order. Postage for all sizes/weights/numbers is 4.6$, respectively 7$ (registered). These ones we have to show, although just sold these very minutes, because they were the best ones. Imilchil is externally strongly weathered, so only with a very few specimens the original shapes are preserved. http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_Set_Formensch%C3%B6n_49_37_g_%2001 .JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_Set_Formensch%C3%B6n_49_37_g_%2002 .JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_Set_Formensch%C3%B6n_49_37_g_%2003 .JPG And now, here we go: I) 26.75g$123 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_26_75_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_26_75_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_26_75_g_%2003.JPG K) 24.65g$113 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_24_65_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_24_65_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_24_65_g_%2003.JPG a) 21.86g$98 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_86_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_86_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_86_g_%2003.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_86_g_%2004.JPG b) 21.07g$96 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_07_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_07_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_21_07_g_%2003.JPG c) 20.20g$92 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_20_20_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_20_20_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_20_20_g_%2003.JPG d) 20.17g$92 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_20_17_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_20_17_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_20_17_g_%2003.JPG e) 16.44g$75 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_16_44_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_16_44_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_16_44_g_%2003.JPG f) 16.06g$73 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_16_06_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_16_06_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_16_06_g_%2003.JPG g) 15.18g$69 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_18_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_18_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_18_g_%2003.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_18_g_%2004.JPG h) 15.13g$69 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_13_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_13_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_15_13_g_%2003.JPG i) 14.86g$68 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_14_86_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_14_86_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_14_86_g_%2003.JPG j) 13.78g$63 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_13_78_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_13_78_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_13_78_g_%2003.JPG N) Set of 6 34.03g$156 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_Setof6_34_03_g_%2001.JPG l) Set of 8 29.04g$133 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_Setof8_29_04_g_%2001.JPG m) Set of 8 23.81g$109 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_Setof8_23_81_g_%2001.JPG IF you're in a need for smaller specimens, we have still a lot of such, down to 1 gram. Just give us the amount you'd like to spend, price per gram is 4.6$ and Ironmaster Andi Gren will choose the nicest one for you, meeting your specifications. Best regards! Your FC Meteorite House A.Gren M.Altmann M.Kurschat E.& V. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] FCM: AD: The Brand-New Iron Meteorite Find "Ilmichil" !
Dear community, The FCM is delighted to introduce firstly to this list the most recent iron find; delighted, because the recovery of a reasonably rich iron meteorite, having produced so many specimens that a lot of collectors can be satisfied, is a fairly rare event. As brand-new this meteorite is, as still inconsistent are the information about, a natural occurrence. This iron was found in the region around the town Ilmichil, therefore the "working-name" for the iron of the local specialists is "Ilmichil", though because the location of the strewnfield is known, it is likely that this new find can obtain ir even keep its geographical name and won't need a NWA-number. Some searchers report a crater-like structure in that area, but it is 25 miles away from the strewnfield, so that a connection with that formation can be ruled out. The figures of the recovered weight vary. The highest number we heard, were 80 kgs, whereof 60kgs are allotted in the main mass and we were told, that small specimens like we will offer today are relatively scarce. Meanwhile, when we just were typing out notification of the new sensation to the European meteorite forum, Alex Seidel found already a short report about the searches of the University of Agadir for Ilmichil. Find it here: http://kuerzer.de/Illmichel There the dimensions of the strewnfield are given, as well reported, that 180 kgs were retrieved. Also a guess of the terrestrial age you'll read there: 40,000 years. Now to the specimens! The outer trait of the individuals is inconspicuous, the irons are externally fairly weathered and covered with a rusty-brown patina. Here an example of 129 grams: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_129_18_g_%2001.JPG However, one distinctive feature does exist, with almost all individuals you see here and there some schreibersite shining through the oxide-layer. Of course ironmaster Andi Gren had immediately to reveal the interior secrets that iron kept. Voilá - the result was this etching: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2003.JPG As you observe, Ilmichil seems to explode of Neumann lines. Grouped directing in different directions. Large and small schreibersite-crystals are abundant. However no fields became visible on these limited diameters, therefore we guess it could be a Coarsest Octahedrite, in principle with that features and the richness in schreibersite even a IIG can't be ruled out by the optical inspection. Well. The FC Meteorite House decided not to take advantage from the news value and the first amazement, and priced the now following specimens moderately and depending on size at 4$ - 4.6$ per gram. Bon Appétit! Your FCM Andi Martin Maren E.&V. A) Individual 129.18g $516 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_129_18_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_129_18_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_129_18_g_%2003.JPG B) Individual80.62g $322 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_80_62_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_80_62_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_80_62_g_%2003.JPG C) Individual64.25g $273 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_64_25_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_64_25_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_64_25_g_%2003.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_64_25_g_%2004.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_64_25_g_%2005.JPG D) Individual54.96g $233 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_54_96_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_54_96_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_54_96_g_%2003.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_54_96_g_%2004.JPG E) Individual45.90g $211 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_45_90_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_45_90_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_45_90_g_%2003.JPG F) Endcut, etched30.82g $141 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2003.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2004.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_30_82_g_%2005.JPG G) Individual33.76g $155 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_33_76_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_33_76_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_33_76_g_%2003.JPG H) Individual29.21g $134 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_29_21_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_29_21_g_%2002.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_29_21_g_%2003.JPG I) Individual26.75g $123 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_26_75_g_%2001.JPG http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Imilchil_26_75_g_%2002.JPG http://www.m
[meteorite-list] FCM: AD: 33$-Thin-Section-Supersale - Update & Addendum
Please accept out apologies for posting a second time. But the TSses are going so fast, although many of you are just having their morning coffee (btw. had we ever mentioned here, that we created some cool Henbury-mugs?), that it became necessary to update the offer to avoid complexity and for you easier to choose. Hence. >From the first page ONLY LEFT are currently (from left to the right) : http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Duennschliffe01.jpg Upper Row: Sulagirion Position 3 NWA 7370 Pos.5 Middle Row: Mount Tazerzait Pos.4 Mount Tazerzait Pos.5 Lower Row Palomas Pos.1 Second page STILL AVAILABLE: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Duennschliffe02.jpg Upper Row: Dhofar 631 Pos.1 Middle Row: All Lower Row: Sinawan 001 Pos.1 DaG 650Pos.2 NWA Pos.5 (With the impactites you have still a pretty full choice). NEW! NEW! NEW! Our coach just found in the locker room a last batch, these are really really our last ones. So dry the tears, there is hope! Here again some more: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Duennschliffe03.jpg Some last and ultimate: Camel Donga, Chergach, Sulagiri, Palomas, El Atchane 015-017, Mount Tazerzait, NWA 869, Safsaf Many thanks for your patience! Goool! FCM __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] FCM: AD: Thin Sections Super Special Sale - Meteorites & Impactites 33$ each !! (no matter whether achondrite or chondrite, find or fall!!)
Dear Fans of the FC Meteorite House, and all, who still want to become a fan. We launch today a really respectable special sale of thin sections (TS) at unrivaled, low prices. An offer, which is so fantastic, that we don't have to write many words. We all know, who is the largest supplier of TSses in the collectors' scene. Chondrites starting there at 70-75$, hardly any achondritic TS found below 100$. Our TSses don't have that Mercedes-Benz-High-End-quality (neither btw. do the TSses used for classifications own that), as they don't have the standard thickness of 35µm, but are between 20µm and 30µm. Nevertheless they are very very useable and of course that circumstance is more than compensated in the price. All sections are covered. Here now the center of the AD: 33$ each! No matter whether chondrite or achondrite, no matter whether the surface is small or large, no matter whether find or fall, no matter how rare the locales is. Therefore, we think, not only apt for the specialized collector, but especially also for these, who maybe are interested to try once, whether thin sections could be a field of collection for them too! Let us start with the impactites, because impactite thin sections seem to be even rarer than meteoritic ones. The direct scans are large enough to decipher the labeling. Given is always the kind of rock, the name of the impact structure, its diameter and age. To offer the FCM has: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Impactite_TS_01.jpg -Vredefort -Gardnos -Tenoumer -Söderfjärden -Dhala -Sudbury as well as http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Impactite_TS_02.jpg - Kentland - Ries - Glover Bluff - Dellen - Rochechouart - Ritland And here are coming the meteorite thin sections! For the case, that you can't read the labels so well, let us list them quickly. >From left to the right and from up to down: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Duennschliffe01.jpg Upper Row: Vyatka Russia, 1971, H4 Vyatka Russia, 1971, H4 Sulagiri India, Fall 2008, LL6 NWA 5611 Sahara, 2008, polymict EUC, low weathering NWA 7370 Sahara, 2009, Olivine DIO Camel Donga Australia, 1984, monomict EUC, fresh Camel Donga Australia, 1984, monomict EUC, fresh Camel Donga Australia, 1984, monomict EUC, fresh Middle Row: NWA 5418 Sahara, 2006, LL6, S3/4, W2 Palomas Mexico, 2002, H4 Mount Tazerzait Niger, Fall 1991, anom L5, porous Mount Tazerzait Niger, Fall 1991, anom L5, porous Mount Tazerzait Niger, Fall 1991, anom L5, porous Chergach Mali, Fall 2007, H5, S4 Chergach Mali, Fall 2007, H5, S4 Chergach Mali, Fall 2007, H5, S4 Lower Row: Palomas Mexico, 2002, H4 El Atchane 017 Algeria, 1997, H4/5, W2 El Atchane 016 Algeria, 1998, H5, S1, W0/1 El Atchane 015 Algeria, 1997, H4, W0/1 SaU 464 Oman, 2008, LL5, S1, W1 Safsaf Morocco, 1998, L6, S3, W3 NWA 869 Sahara, 2000, L3-6, S3, W1 NWA 869 Sahara, 2000, L3-6, S3, W1 2nd part: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Duennschliffe02.jpg Upper Row Dhofar 631 Oman, 2001, H5, S3, W4 Dhofar 631 Oman, 2001, H5, S3, W4 NWA 067 Sahara, 2000, L6, S2, W5 SaU 001 Oman, 2000, L4/5, S2, W1 Middle Row SaU 464 Oman, 2008, LL5, S1, W1 NWA 836 Sahara, 2000, L5, S3, W3 Santa Vitoria do Palmar Brazil, 2003, L3, S4, W2 Santa Vitoria do Palmar Brazil, 2003, L3, S4, W2 Lower Row Sinawan 001 Libya, 1991, L6 DaG 650 Libya, 1999, L6, S6, W3 Polujamki Russia, 1971, H4 DaG 650 Libya, 1999, L6, S6, W3 NWA Sahara, 2000, OC And now give us our well-deserved battle cry and then get them, as long they're still hot! Truly yours, FC Meteorite House Hamburg - Munich A.Gren M.Altmann M.Kurschat E.&V. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] "Some Meteorite Realities" and Other Interesting Meteorite Web Pages
Hi, from the practice I'd like to add a most important point to the Meteorite Reality Checklist: 60 If an expert tells you, that your rock is no meteorite, then: Believe him! :-) Martin Some Meteorite Realities http://meteorites.wustl.edu/realities.htm __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
"they are not native to Earth." Ouch, Anne, cat-piano... Does that mean a paradigm shift in the IMCA rules? Really no offense intended, though at least the German collectors are waiting since last August for a definite clarification how to apply the "CoE" in that respect. Would be nice... "Unobserved fall", Please folks, don't make such a bugbear out of that, like it had happened with the so called "hammer falls"! I think, meteorites are already expensive enough "Fallen find" Skol! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Anne Black Gesendet: Samstag, 5. Januar 2013 02:28 An: h...@meteorhall.com; m...@meteoriteguy.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; valpar...@aol.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day Every single meteorite ever found on Earth is necessarily the result of a fall, they are not native to Earth. The only difference is that some falls are seen, witnessed, and some, the vast majoriry, are not. So calling them Observed or Unobserved falls is logical. That is what happened to all of them. That is simple reality. Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com impact...@aol.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] T-shirt (and French Fall)
Oh, Poyet, Poyet That is nothing for Anne & Matthias: It's called: Variations on a catatonic scale. http://kuerzer.de/OjehPoyet Meow Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Martin Altmann Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Januar 2013 03:12 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] T-shirt (and French Fall) Had we these Poyets already? Kool: Fig 1. http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lookandlearn-preview/XM/XM10/XM10012/XM100 12377.jpg > Fig 2. http://imagecache5d.allposters.com/watermarker/17-1738-8CY3D00Z.jpg ??? Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] T-shirt (and French Fall)
Had we these Poyets already? Kool: Fig 1. http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lookandlearn-preview/XM/XM10/XM10012/XM100 12377.jpg > Fig 2. http://imagecache5d.allposters.com/watermarker/17-1738-8CY3D00Z.jpg ??? Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD: FCM: Come, Play with Us! Wonderful Meteorite Jigsaws & Top Trumps !!
Dear Friends, the FC Meteorite House had had such a really sweet idea, which will mellow even the grumpiest cosmic codger and presents to you today for the first time his: Meteorite-Jigsaws! A fun for the young, the young at heart and the old; a fine gift, to transport your passion; also to lead the kids to meteorites; certainly a collectible by its own; a guarantor and a new playful way, to delve for many hours into the details of a meteorite; or to make it shorter: Simply: amorevolous and wonderful! The first jigsaw is Muonionalusta http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Puzzle001.jpg Available either with 200 pieces or - with that motif especially dodgy, promised!, - with 500 pieces! The second jigsaw isn't only artistic, but even philosophical, as it shows the ur-germ, the ultimate ground of all being, therefore especially suitable for the meteorite faddists - a prodigious chondrule from a thin section in cross-polarized light: Chondrule http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Puzzle002.jpg Again we made two degrees of difficulty: 200 and 500 pieces. Topped off the affair gets by the Gardnos-Impactite-Jigsaw, an excellent method, to point to oneself up the nature of brecciation, which isn't however only valid down here on Earth, but on the minor planets, the terrestrial planets and the asteroids - and therefore with the meteorites - too. Gardnos Impactite http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Puzzle003.jpg Of course available with 200 pieces and with 500 pieces too. The prices for these wonderfine jigsaws are: 29.50$ for the 200-pieces-jigsaws 38.50$ for the 500-pieces-jigsaws. postage for 1 jigsaw is ca. 4.50$ and for up to three 9$ (btw. a good opportunity to order with them the meteoritic ballpoint pen set at $16.50 to save shipping costs). Perhaps a remark, Especially if the jigsaws are meant as gifts for kids - 200 pieces sounds in the first instance not so much, but is with these motifs already quite tricky; 500 pieces are rather something for the Jigsaw-Masters (especially in the most prestigious challenge - solving it without using the image on the box - you'll need days!). The second part of our pleasurable advertisement regards the meanwhile famous top trumps: Meteorite Super Trump Long ago already they became true classics in the European meteorite scene. Whoever takes pride in himself as meteorite collector, had grasped one or several of these decks of cards at the Munich or the Ensisheim fair. (remember the photos of those always reporting from these events, where you can find known and unknown faces avidly playing these cards). http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Quartett_3.jpg http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Quartett_4.jpg http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Quartett_5.jpg http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Quartett_7.jpg Unfortunately the Meteorite Super Trump was edited in a very limited number and rapidly sold out. Fortunately the FCM owns still a few remainders, therefore: Who missed out then, is lucky and can still jump on his copy rright now at - a matter of course - the same price like the had cost at that time. The Meteorite Super Trump Was issued in two qualities. - the Player's Edition Printed on professional Las Vegas deck cardboard (the one with opaque barrier sheet, to avoid any kibitzing). Hence so to say, that's the everyday version, which you use, when the crotchety hunters on the backseats start to grouch, when finally will we have arrived in the strewnfield?? That edition is prized at 17$ (currently only 2 left). And the more luxurious - Dealer's Premium edition Printed on a little thicker cardboard with a minimally larger font, it is even more sturdy and therefore used in the dimly lit back rooms of the Kasbahs, where the sinister obscurantists of the World Meteorite Collectors Black Market gamble for real lunars and Martians until the white thread becomes distinct from the black thread, drinking themselves with mint tea into diabetes (says the NYT). .. ... which is also perfect for display, picture framed or as placeholders in the meteorite cabinet, until the FCM will have organized the respective meteorite for you. That nobler edition costs 25$ (19 left in stock). And finally a combo, the Player's edition for the daily use, the Dealer's Premium as an exhibit for the showcase, Is together: 40$ Hence, for these wonderful ideas we ask firstly for your applause and a Mexican wave the whole stadium through, before you secondly bring these lovely games into your homes, where to is now sending cordial greetings The FC Meteorite House Hamburg - Munich A.Gren, M.Altmann, M.Kurschat, E.& V. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] T-shirt (and French Fall)
Hi Bernd, all... Not to slow the enthusiasm, but if you know the iconography of 19th popular astronomy books, it is quite unlikely, that that engraving depicts a real fall, or even an eyewitness impression, as we are used to know from e.g. the Sikhote-Alin, Hraschina or Boguslavka paintings. Take the by far most popular illustrated astronomy book in French of that period, the Astronomie populaire by Camille Flammarion, the Carl Sagan of the 19.th century. Therein you'll find e.g. an engraving, (btw. of a much higher artistic value, than that one) of a known fall in India. Very pittoresque, with frightened Indians with huge turbans jumping away from the incoming fireball, with romantic Taj-Mahal-like temples in the background of the scenery. So, such engravings are often free captions of the artists, a "translation" of reports into images. Well, seen the time, maybe the event inspiring Poyet could have been Alfianello, the stone-fall, which caused the broadest stir in the newspapers at those times. Only a guess. Best, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Bernd V. Pauli Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. Januar 2013 22:26 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] T-shirt (and French Fall) Hello List, I wrote: "St. Caprais-de-Quinsac...Gironde (France) Fell 1883, Jan 28, 14:45 hrs" Sounds good, looks good, ... but: Have a close look at the date of the fall: Jan 28 !!! Now, when you compare this with Mike B.'s remarks: "One will note that there are many farmers about and the horse is saddled with the hay carriage." The only conclusion we can thus draw is that the scene depicts an (imaginary?) event in late summer during the harvest season, probably August. Another possibility might be that Poyet so-to-speak "merged" two incidents: the fall of the St. Caprais-de-Quinsac meteorite and the harvest scene. A case of ... artistic license? Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD: FC Meteorite House presents: The Fabulous Thomson Structure Ballpen Set !
Dear Community, in these magic hours between the years it is the right moment for the FC Meteorite House* to light the newest banger from the freshly opened Club shop: The Fabulous Thomson Structure Ballpen Set! http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Stifte_01.jpg Three ballpens (black paint) decorated with three wonderful designs showing three different forms of Thomson Structures, named after Alois Beckh von Widmanstaetten, of three more or less classic iron meteorites. >From left to right and from finest to coarser: http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Stifte_02.jpg NWA 7335, The "fractal" iron, showing in principle a structure of a medium octahedrite, but inscribed in the fields are plessitic spindles repeating that pattern on a miniature scale. Got the classification of an ungrouped, plessitic octahedrite. Gibeon, Not only for a century THE iron meteorite par excellence, but also the king of all finest octahedrites. Henbury The classical medium octahedrite, here with especially many Neumann lines. The price of the whole set is USD 16.50 (+ lowest available shipping rate). And now we all know, with what for a pen we will in future fill out our collection labels and will sign our greetings, which read today: Happy New Year! from FC Meteorite House. M.Altmann (Head) A.Gren (Head of Head) M.Kurschat (Head of the Heads) *to be explained soon in the new year __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy (Thar she blows!)
Yep, were hard times then, so they were for meteorite hunters. Here Mike you see Tashtego, Starbuck, Captain Ahab and Ishmael hunting the White meteorite. http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1271/995914327_613befae01.jpg Watch out, what will happen! Here, Rob L. found that horrible testimony... be aware, that is really nothing for children-eyes: http://kuerzer.de/ahabmassacre The beast has bitten off Ahab's feet!! Back to legality.. The ownership can lead also to problematic juristic consequences. Liability. With Tunguska we had luck, arriving just a few hours later or earlier... and that was a relatively small impact, like it can happen all the time. Follow me... what would be the consequence, if something like Vredefort will happen today? South Africa would be pretty much swept from the map. Legally the Republic of South Africa is the owner of the impactor. Does the Republic have then to pay for the devastations it made? So not only physically, but also economically and for all times the Rep. of South Africa would be pulverized. Less dramatic: A Peekskill car in Western Australia - do I get a new car from the state? A Lorton house in Denmark, who pays the repair of the roof? My dead Llama on BML land, sniff...? Questions. Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
people aren't likely to be responsible curators of >> meteorites. Having personally seen some prime examples of personal >> *and* institutional mistreatment of meteorites, pointing out >> individual examples doesn't accomplish much more than pointing >> fingers. >> >> I personally don't see why it's a horrible fact that Kalahari 009 >> wasn't studied as much as it could have been *when it was found.* We >> haven't lost any information or scientific capability. Just time. >> Science isn't running out of time. >> >> Conversely, the meteorite could have been cut up and sold, with only >> a small portion of it going to science. Which outcome is "better" is >> entirely a matter of opinion. >> >> -- >> >> Richard brought up the 300 lb Glorietta Mountain siderite as an >> example of a wonderful meteorite that was brought to light by the >> private sector. >> >> I believe it is a perfect example of both sides of the issue. A >> large >> (historic?) meteorite of significant size was found on public land. >> It probably would never have been found without private sector effort. >> >> It was then cut (almost entirely) and sold for profit. The largest >> known mass of a large American meteorite that theoretically belonged >> to the American public and probably should have gone to a museum, was >> instead...well, it's gone. I hope you enjoy the photos. The finder >> wasn't wrong to do that -- it was entirely his prerogative. He owned >> it. But I believe that these new laws may be partly intended to keep >> such things from happening. >> >> Whether you see that as good or bad depends on your values, but I'd >> like to share my own. >> >> Would that meteorite ever have been found without the private sector? >> None of us can say, but it does seem unlikely that it would have >> happened in the near future. But we do know one thing for sure -- >> that monolithic meteorite is *gone,* and you can be certain that it's >> not coming back. Ultimately, the specimen was a source of income for >> a meteorite hunter, and the sum of what we have to show for it now is >> a bunch of slices scattered around the world -- that I can't tell >> apart from Seymchan. >> >> -- >> >> Most of the large American meteorites discovered on public and >> private land in the past few decades (that have surfaced) have been >> cut and no longer exist. They were cut for profit. There's a very long list. >> >> I like to think that there's a reason we really appreciate the >> Smithsonian and AMNH to see large rocks. We enjoy seeing photo >> albums from various museums' collections on Facebook. Big rocks from >> outer space are great for outreach and education. And they're >> intact, so if anyone ever wants to do research on them in any way, >> shape, or form in the future, they're available for that. >> >> We're the reason that so few of these rocks are being preserved, >> despite the fact that we admire them. Isn't it odd? >> >> The only reason that I feel I might oppose these new regulations now >> is because there's the chance that if they're passed, they *could* be >> made more stringent in the future. However, since the current >> wording doesn't affect me, I don't mind it. >> >> All of this adamant nay-saying seems a bit much. >> >> Jason >> >> >>> >>> From: Martin Altmann >>> Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 4:04 PM >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy >>> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >>> >>> >>> Hi Fred, >>> >>> "Artifact" would imply that your legislative authorities do believe >>> in the existence of highly developed aliens somewhere between Mars and Jupiter. >>> Maybe we can make here on the list a little collection to donate >>> some more modern books than those of Percival Lowell to the Library >>> of Congress, that this assumption has turned out to be unlikely. >>> >>> Uh coffee was perhaps a bad example - the prices for gasoline, >>> energy, housing, meat will bring you immediately back! >>> >>> Can I sign too as non-citizen? >>> >>> Good night, >>> (have to take my pills, was too talkative...) Martin >>> >>> >>> >
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
-- Richard brought up the 300 lb Glorietta Mountain siderite as an example of a wonderful meteorite that was brought to light by the private sector. I believe it is a perfect example of both sides of the issue. A large (historic?) meteorite of significant size was found on public land. It probably would never have been found without private sector effort. It was then cut (almost entirely) and sold for profit. The largest known mass of a large American meteorite that theoretically belonged to the American public and probably should have gone to a museum, was instead...well, it's gone. I hope you enjoy the photos. The finder wasn't wrong to do that -- it was entirely his prerogative. He owned it. But I believe that these new laws may be partly intended to keep such things from happening. Whether you see that as good or bad depends on your values, but I'd like to share my own. Would that meteorite ever have been found without the private sector? None of us can say, but it does seem unlikely that it would have happened in the near future. But we do know one thing for sure -- that monolithic meteorite is *gone,* and you can be certain that it's not coming back. Ultimately, the specimen was a source of income for a meteorite hunter, and the sum of what we have to show for it now is a bunch of slices scattered around the world -- that I can't tell apart from Seymchan. -- Most of the large American meteorites discovered on public and private land in the past few decades (that have surfaced) have been cut and no longer exist. They were cut for profit. There's a very long list. I like to think that there's a reason we really appreciate the Smithsonian and AMNH to see large rocks. We enjoy seeing photo albums from various museums' collections on Facebook. Big rocks from outer space are great for outreach and education. And they're intact, so if anyone ever wants to do research on them in any way, shape, or form in the future, they're available for that. We're the reason that so few of these rocks are being preserved, despite the fact that we admire them. Isn't it odd? The only reason that I feel I might oppose these new regulations now is because there's the chance that if they're passed, they *could* be made more stringent in the future. However, since the current wording doesn't affect me, I don't mind it. All of this adamant nay-saying seems a bit much. Jason > > From: Martin Altmann > Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 4:04 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy > To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > > Hi Fred, > > "Artifact" would imply that your legislative authorities do believe in > the existence of highly developed aliens somewhere between Mars and Jupiter. > Maybe we can make here on the list a little collection to donate some > more modern books than those of Percival Lowell to the Library of > Congress, that this assumption has turned out to be unlikely. > > Uh coffee was perhaps a bad example - the prices for gasoline, energy, > housing, meat will bring you immediately back! > > Can I sign too as non-citizen? > > Good night, > (have to take my pills, was too talkative...) Martin > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: h...@meteorhall.com [mailto:h...@meteorhall.com] > Gesendet: Montag, 3. Dezember 2012 00:32 > An: Martin Altmann > Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy > > Martin, is coffee a total cost of $7 per pound or are the taxes $7 per > pound? If it is ONLY $7 per pound total cost, being a coffee drinker, I may > consider moving to Germany, as we pay $9 to $11 per 12 ounces, plus sales > tax, in most States of the USA! > A meteorite should not be considered an "artifact" unless it is found in > a Native American site or early American site. They are rocks, 99%+ never > used by early man. Glorious rocks, but rocks none the less. If you find a > rock on BLM land, other then petrified wood or fossils, you can haul it away > even if it weighs 499 pounds. The petrified wood limit is 250 pounds per > year per person. > As for rocks, no permit is needed on BLM land UNLESS you want to mine for > minerals. Picking up a rock, by hand, on the surface is not mining. > Sign me up to end this new ruling by our lord and master, the BLM. > Fred Hall > > > > __ > > Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi Fred, "Artifact" would imply that your legislative authorities do believe in the existence of highly developed aliens somewhere between Mars and Jupiter. Maybe we can make here on the list a little collection to donate some more modern books than those of Percival Lowell to the Library of Congress, that this assumption has turned out to be unlikely. Uh coffee was perhaps a bad example - the prices for gasoline, energy, housing, meat will bring you immediately back! Can I sign too as non-citizen? Good night, (have to take my pills, was too talkative...) Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: h...@meteorhall.com [mailto:h...@meteorhall.com] Gesendet: Montag, 3. Dezember 2012 00:32 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Martin, is coffee a total cost of $7 per pound or are the taxes $7 per pound? If it is ONLY $7 per pound total cost, being a coffee drinker, I may consider moving to Germany, as we pay $9 to $11 per 12 ounces, plus sales tax, in most States of the USA! A meteorite should not be considered an "artifact" unless it is found in a Native American site or early American site. They are rocks, 99%+ never used by early man. Glorious rocks, but rocks none the less. If you find a rock on BLM land, other then petrified wood or fossils, you can haul it away even if it weighs 499 pounds. The petrified wood limit is 250 pounds per year per person. As for rocks, no permit is needed on BLM land UNLESS you want to mine for minerals. Picking up a rock, by hand, on the surface is not mining. Sign me up to end this new ruling by our lord and master, the BLM. Fred Hall __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
ecovery policy that "recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion" Here is the exact context: "However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate." - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy I think, you're beating the wrong ones. These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not so mighty, to create new laws and regulations. Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags were blinking through the headlines, and no restrictions followed. Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media, decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced. And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in public? I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the Moon... ;-) If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have to be concealed, for the fear, that there could be some administrative dabblers immediately trying to forbid them, I guess I, neither you wouldn't want to live in a world like that. Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee (gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol, gambling.. And be glad. Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other countries (which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so as harmful (and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his 12 wives, he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister for possible meteorites) the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1, you got off still relatively lightly. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade. Perhaps these entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly attracting the wrong kind of attention. A lot of people including these BLM employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and reality. It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item. Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could learn something from England's treasure trove laws. The Government there has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them. I think non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they see on TV. They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover Act of 2012. Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by thoughtless people. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
I think, you're beating the wrong ones. These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not so mighty, to create new laws and regulations. Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags were blinking through the headlines, and no restrictions followed. Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media, decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced. And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in public? I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the Moon... ;-) If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have to be concealed, for the fear, that there could be some administrative dabblers immediately trying to forbid them, I guess I, neither you wouldn't want to live in a world like that. Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee (gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol, gambling.. And be glad. Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other countries (which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so as harmful (and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his 12 wives, he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister for possible meteorites) the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1, you got off still relatively lightly. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade. Perhaps these entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly attracting the wrong kind of attention. A lot of people including these BLM employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and reality. It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item. Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could learn something from England's treasure trove laws. The Government there has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them. I think non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they see on TV. They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover Act of 2012. Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by thoughtless people. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy (Swaziland)
Btw. by far the best of the coolest meteorite laws I found in Swaziland! Wait it's only a little bit complicate, but let me give you a summary: - Collecting of meteorites in National Parks is forbidden. - The removing and exportation of a meteorite needs the permission of the National Trust Committee. -Remains the National Trust Committee inactive, then you can address the Deputy Prime minister for issuing the permit. - Refuses the National Trust Committee the permit, then the Deputy Prime Minister is allowed to issue the permit. - Refuses the Deputy Prime Minister the permit, then the National Committee is allowed to give the permit and to commend the Deputy Prime Minister to issue it. - Refuses the Deputy Prime Minister and the National Trust Committee as well the permit, then you can object. - The Deputy Prime Minister needs for that maneuver the approval of the Ngwenyama - The Deputy Prime Minister is entitled to purchase the meteorite, if he wants. (Swaziland has 1 meteorite). ;-) Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi there Nick, >But note what Schmitt has written on page B6, paragraph 3: >"Most Western European countries... have civil codes laying down principles of law under >which meteorites are owned by the landowner as long as they have "acceded" to the land. An astonishing statement. As much as I investigated laws, in all the years I was able to find so far only 3 (three) European laws, explicitly giving "meteorites" in their wordings. Denmark (where the museum has to decide, whether it is a "Dannekrae" - in that case the finder gets a reward (in practice the museum is buying the stone from the finder). Else he can keep it. And the question of the landowner is not mentioned.) Poland (came later than Schmidt. No ownership questions. Meteorites (national and international) ones need an export permit). Slovakia (finder has to announce it to the local environment agency and gets a title as finder. If he then doesn't hear for (would have to look up again) more than 3 months nothing again from that office, he is the owner. Else he gets a reward of 10% of the market value). As stated here so often, also the piece of information Schmitt gave about Switzerland and New Zealand is incorrect, and the piece of information about India doubtful (if you read the Indian constitution still in place and certainly over-ruling administrative orders from the colonial times). All in all I came to the conclusion, that Schmitt hasn't read most of the laws (if he gives the §§) at all, neither he investigated the reports, he received from third parties (obviously legal laypeople), whether they are wrong or true. Meteorites are a too rare and exotic thing, that they would enter written law in Western Europe countries. The question mainly is, what for a "res" a meteorite is legally, in which drawers you can sort them, the individual laws of each country allow. If I reckon meteorites among narcotics or to explosives, then certainly there are certain restrictions. Nothing else makes Schmitt. Btw. his far-fetched interpretation of the UN-convention of 1970, if you use exactly the same method of generous ellipsis in quoting, like Schmitt did, You'll find, that e.g. bananas are protected moveable cultural heritage. Additional, thanks god, in all countries here in Western Europe in case a court has to decide, what for an object a meteorite is in meaning of the national law, and not Mr.Schmitt. Well, if I as a complete and brute layman am able to a) find the individual laws and b) to read and to understand them, then I dare to say, that Schmitt's work is bs. (pardon me). >What relevance is Schmitt's Canadian opinion Not Schmitt, but google is the enemy. Unfortunately the first hits delivered for a query for laws and meteorites lead directly to Schmitt's bad paper. (Even more unfortunately, that it was published (and even more and more unfortunately not peer-reviewed) in the official organ of the meteoritical society, MAPS.) So whenever a journalist seeks a story around a new fall, he will read Schmitt's paper. So unwantedly Schmitt is the reason, that some of my neighbours could look at me like a member of a drug or weapon dealers cartel, because some lousy clowns in NYT or BBC, as it happened, jumped from Schmitt's stuff to the conclusions necessary to make a story, where no story is. >Perhaps it's time for another scholarly article.. Good idea, but a scientist or even better a meteoricist has to write that. Hunters, dealers and collectors are not regarded to be part of the academic world, their opinion therefore is not interesting and their expertise doubtful. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 21:01 An: Yinan Wang; Jim Strope Cc: meteorite central Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Wichtigkeit: Hoch >From my perspective, I think we ought not to go off half-cocked. Apparently, that is what the BLM has done, and it has gotten no one anywhere. But note what Schmitt has written on page B6, paragraph 3: "Most Western European countries... have civil codes laying down principles of law under which meteorites are owned by the landowner as long as they have "acceded" to the land. A meteorite resting on the surface is, arguably, owned by the finder taking possession of it, subject to trespass issues." Read this carefully! I think it would be worthwhile to first do a profile on Schmitt. Solicitors present arguments and opinions, they do not conduct scientific and sociological investigations of the subject. Perhaps we need a societal and cultural perspective on the issue? Who were his 20 informants? As an anthropologist, his investigation falls way short of unbiased research. What relevance is Schmitt's Canadian opinion to US Law? Have we learned nothing in ten years? Since then the public has become better in
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA SETI Misappropriation of Tax Payer Funds
Wow, Adam!!! That sounds like a paradise to me! Where can I get my green card? The blimp-fun - it's a relatively cheap promoting affair, so what? Sincerely yours, The German income-, VAT- (for my EU-customers), business-, church-, solidarity-, interest- --TAX- & mandatory social security & other social receivables & compulsory chamber of commerce membership dues -PAYER Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Freitag, 2. November 2012 22:05 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA SETI Misappropriation of Tax Payer Funds Yes, our tax burden is at record levels. 28% collectable capitol gains plus 15% FICA plus multiple fees(taxes) attached to nearly everything including the water we drink; What an outrage! Remember this when you bid on meteorites on eBay. Since they are collectables like gold, silver and platinum, the seller is being taxed at the highest possible capital gains tax rate which is expected to go up depending on who is elected. Who says the middle class isn't being squeezed harder than ever before? To see our hard earned money wasted on frivolous pursuits like blimp rides under the name of science beyond ridiculous. Some of my thoughts as unlisted private home and cell phones are ringing off the hook incessantly with political robocalls trying to get my vote. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD: Library IV (and last) - Historic Impactica, Bolidica, Meteoritic Miscellana
...and finally the last delivery of the antiquarian sale. All items will be shipped from Monday on after the Munich Show. Thank you for participating & patience, All the Best! Martin General: 47) NORDSTROEM T.Nordstroem: Om Meteoriter. Laesning foer Folket N°43, 1871 18 pages. Good. 15$ 48) KRECKE F.W.Krecke: De Meteoorsteenen. Print oft he Album der Natuur, 1883 46 pages. 9 engravings (Juvinas, Orgueil, Sierra de Chaco, Caille, Carthago, Krasnojarsk, Uden, Blauwkapel). Several stamps of the university Delft. Enclosed library catalogue card. Few pages a little loose, but a very good copy. 35$ 49) SCHWINNER R.Schwinner: Meteoriten und Geologie. Separate print from Gerlands Beiträge zur Geophysik, Vol.16, Leipzig 1927 28 pages. Delft university library stamp on front. (Lots of formulas to calculate impacts). Inside two contemporary handwritten sheets in English and Dutch (looks like a student hat to held a lesson about tektites). Good. 20$ Collections: 50) ESCHER B.G.Escher: Korte Handleiding ten Gebruike bij de Bestudeering der Meteoriten in der Verzameling Algemeene Geologie van het Geol.-Mineralogisch Museum der Technische Hoogeschool de Delft. Delft 1913. 27 pages. 3 figures in text. Delft university stamp on cover. Mint. (Remark: it is a guide for visitors of the museum. General explaining meteorites and the exhibits/meteorites they should parallel look at, are given on the margin. Nice.) 28$ 51) HENDERSON E.P.Henderson: American Meteorites and the National Collection. Separate print from Annual Report Smithsonian Institution. Washington 1948. 18 pages. 6 full-page plates showing Pima County, Allegan, Exhibit of the U.S. National Museum (with Drum Mountains, Canyon Diablo, Owens Valley), Sardis, Bennett County, Aggie Creek, Edmonton, Wiley, Mt.Vernon and microscopic views of Roy, Elm Creek, Tennasilm, Moore County. Very good to mint. 19$ Impact structures: 52) MALBAIE P.B.Robertson: La Malbaie Structure, Quebec - A Paleozoic Meteorite Impact Site. Contributions from the Dominion Observatory N°249, Ottawa 1968 24 pages. Many photos and maps. Very good. 22$ 53) HOLLEFORD P.Andrieux, J.F.Clark: Application des méthodes électriques de prospection à l'étude du cratère d'Holleford. Contributions from the Dominion Observatory N°252, Ottawa 1969 14 pages. Cover lost. Various photos, maps, diagrams. Fine. 14$ Meteors & Fireballs: 54) Hoffmeister C.Hoffmeister: Über Meteorbachtungen. 16 pages. Some figures in text. Issue oft he Naturwissenschaftliche Wochenschrift. Naumburg March 3, 1918. Larger format. (Some nice art nouveau advertizings inside of cover). Very good. 16$ 55) Fireball F.Watson Jr : The Detonating Fireball of May 26, 1935. Print from Popular Astronomy, Vol.44, N°3, Harvard Reprint 120, 1936. 4 pages. 1 sketch in text. Harvard reprint stamp on cover and 1st page. Very good. 10$ FINIS __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Library III - Historic Books & Articles on special topics
Hi Adam, I had this whole year exactly 2 (two) ads. In fact I'm since February disabled by a severe disease and unable to work. Therefore I hadn't now the power yet, to compile the book offers in one single ad. I hope, most won't mind - enjoying the offers, as there are many absolutely unobtainable works offered among them and that at astonishingly low "ballpark" prices. All others I've to ask - for once - for their patience, to forgive a long-term list-member and to use their finger 3 times more to hit the delete key. Many thanks for the understanding. Martin What ever happened to the one ad per week rule? It seems there are a few who disrespecting those who follow the courtesy rules! ________ From: Martin Altmann To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 9:58 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Library III - Historic Books & Articles on special topics Voilá, for those afficionados, who're collecting items to combine shipment, not having to wait so long, here already the next list of offers. Some true benchmark publications among them. Note btw. that at the modern online-article-services you have to pay often more for new scientific papers than these historical ones are now offered. Much success! (Last part will follow in a few hours) Martin 35a) RAMMELSBERG C.Rammelsberg: Die chemische Natur der Meteoriten. Zweite Abtheilung. Abhandlungen der Königl. Akademie der Wissenschaften, Berlin 1879 64 pages. Lexicon-octavo. Condition: Mint! Content: Meteoreisen Pallasit Chondrit Chladnit Shalkit Anhang zum Eukrit (Shergotty) Howardit Kohlenstoff in Meteoriten Neue Mineralien der Meteoriten Uebersicht der isomorphen Mischungen der meteoritischen Olivin- und Augitsubstanz Verzeichniß solcher Meteoriten, deren erneute Untersuchung wünschenswerth ist Tabelle I. Zusammensetzung der Meteoreisen Tabelle II. Zusammensetzung des Rückstandes (Schreibersits) Tabelle III. Zusammensetzung der Chondrite Tabelle IV. Zusammensetzung der Silikate der Chondrite Tabelle V. Verhältniß des zersetzbaren Theils A und des unzersetzbaren B Tabelle VI. Zusammensetzung des zersetzbaren Theils (A) der Silikate Tabelle VII. Zusammensetzung des unzersetzbaren Theils (B) der Silikate Nachträge (Carl Frierich Rammelsberg: http://kuerzer.de/Rammelsberg ) 70$ 35b) like 35a) Condition: near mint. 60$ 36) RINNE F.Rinne: Kugelrunde Eiskrystalle und Chondren von Meteoriten. Separate print from Neue Jahrbuch für Mineralogie, Vol.1, 1897 3 pages. University Greifswald stamp on front. Condition: fine - good. (Friedrich Rinne: http://kuerzer.de/FRinne ) 5$ 37) TASSIN W.Tassin: On Meteoritic Chromits. >From Proceedings of the U.S. National Museum, Vol.34, N°1628, >Washington 1908. 6 pages. Good - Very good. 10$ 38) WATSON F.G.Watson: Reflectivity and Color of Meteorites. Print from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, Vol.24, N°12, 1938. Cover. "Harvard Reprint 155" stamp on first page. 6 pages. Contains 8 spectral-reflectance curves, 1 diagram. Condition: good. 15$ 39) HENDERSON E.P.Henderson: Meteorites and their Metallic Constituents. Separate Print from the Smithsonian Annual Report, Washington 1943 14 pages + 6 full-page tables, showing views of entire Freda and Tulia, etched slices of Bennett County, Negrillo, Grand Rapids, El Burro, Sandia Mountains, Reed City And micrographs of Tennasilm, Sharps, Shallowater, Nordheim, Hoba, Iquique, Tlacotepec. Condition: very good. 25$ 40) MASON I. Brian Mason: The Classification of Chondritic Meteorites. American Museum Novitates N°2085, New York 1962. 20 pages. Near mint. 25$ 41) MASON II. Brian Mason: The Hypersthene Achondrites. American Museum Novitates N°2155, New York 1963. 15 pages. 1 photomicrograph. Very good. 20$ 42) MASON III. Brian Mason: The Chemical Composition of Olivine-Bronzite and Olivine-Hypersthene Chondrites. American Museum Novitates N°2223, New York 1965. 38 pages. Multnomah library stamp on front. Mint. 40$ ALL 3 MASONS: 75$ 43) MOORE C.B.Moore, C.F.Lewis: The Distribution of Total Carbon Content in Enstatite Chondrites. Print from Earth and Planetary Science Letters 1, Amsterdam 1966. 4 pages. Good. 5$ 44) ROWE M.W.Rowe: Xenomalies. Nininger Meteorite Award Paper Center for Meteorite Studies, ASU, Publication N°4, Tempe 1967 48 pages, Softcover. Mint. (It's about Xenon anomalies in meteorites). 43$ 45) BUSECK P.R.Buseck, J.J.Goldstein: Olivine Compositions and Cooling Rates of Pallasitic Meteorites. Geological Society of America Bulletin Vol.80, 1969 20 pages. 2 full-page plates: cut surface of OLLAGUE, 2 micrographs of Imilac. Very good. 25$ 46) MUELLER R.F.Mueller, E.J.Olsen: Mineral Assemblages and the Chemical History of Chondritic Meteorites. Fildiana - Geology Vol.16, N°15, Chicago 1969. 34 pages. Stamp of Rijks Geologisch Dienst Heerlen on front. Mint. 28$
[meteorite-list] Library III - Historic Books & Articles on special topics
Voilá, for those afficionados, who're collecting items to combine shipment, not having to wait so long, here already the next list of offers. Some true benchmark publications among them. Note btw. that at the modern online-article-services you have to pay often more for new scientific papers than these historical ones are now offered. Much success! (Last part will follow in a few hours) Martin 35a) RAMMELSBERG C.Rammelsberg: Die chemische Natur der Meteoriten. Zweite Abtheilung. Abhandlungen der Königl. Akademie der Wissenschaften, Berlin 1879 64 pages. Lexicon-octavo. Condition: Mint! Content: Meteoreisen Pallasit Chondrit Chladnit Shalkit Anhang zum Eukrit (Shergotty) Howardit Kohlenstoff in Meteoriten Neue Mineralien der Meteoriten Uebersicht der isomorphen Mischungen der meteoritischen Olivin- und Augitsubstanz Verzeichniß solcher Meteoriten, deren erneute Untersuchung wünschenswerth ist Tabelle I. Zusammensetzung der Meteoreisen Tabelle II. Zusammensetzung des Rückstandes (Schreibersits) Tabelle III. Zusammensetzung der Chondrite Tabelle IV. Zusammensetzung der Silikate der Chondrite Tabelle V. Verhältniß des zersetzbaren Theils A und des unzersetzbaren B Tabelle VI. Zusammensetzung des zersetzbaren Theils (A) der Silikate Tabelle VII. Zusammensetzung des unzersetzbaren Theils (B) der Silikate Nachträge (Carl Frierich Rammelsberg: http://kuerzer.de/Rammelsberg ) 70$ 35b) like 35a) Condition: near mint. 60$ 36) RINNE F.Rinne: Kugelrunde Eiskrystalle und Chondren von Meteoriten. Separate print from Neue Jahrbuch für Mineralogie, Vol.1, 1897 3 pages. University Greifswald stamp on front. Condition: fine - good. (Friedrich Rinne: http://kuerzer.de/FRinne ) 5$ 37) TASSIN W.Tassin: On Meteoritic Chromits. >From Proceedings of the U.S. National Museum, Vol.34, N°1628, Washington 1908. 6 pages. Good - Very good. 10$ 38) WATSON F.G.Watson: Reflectivity and Color of Meteorites. Print from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, Vol.24, N°12, 1938. Cover. "Harvard Reprint 155" stamp on first page. 6 pages. Contains 8 spectral-reflectance curves, 1 diagram. Condition: good. 15$ 39) HENDERSON E.P.Henderson: Meteorites and their Metallic Constituents. Separate Print from the Smithsonian Annual Report, Washington 1943 14 pages + 6 full-page tables, showing views of entire Freda and Tulia, etched slices of Bennett County, Negrillo, Grand Rapids, El Burro, Sandia Mountains, Reed City And micrographs of Tennasilm, Sharps, Shallowater, Nordheim, Hoba, Iquique, Tlacotepec. Condition: very good. 25$ 40) MASON I. Brian Mason: The Classification of Chondritic Meteorites. American Museum Novitates N°2085, New York 1962. 20 pages. Near mint. 25$ 41) MASON II. Brian Mason: The Hypersthene Achondrites. American Museum Novitates N°2155, New York 1963. 15 pages. 1 photomicrograph. Very good. 20$ 42) MASON III. Brian Mason: The Chemical Composition of Olivine-Bronzite and Olivine-Hypersthene Chondrites. American Museum Novitates N°2223, New York 1965. 38 pages. Multnomah library stamp on front. Mint. 40$ ALL 3 MASONS: 75$ 43) MOORE C.B.Moore, C.F.Lewis: The Distribution of Total Carbon Content in Enstatite Chondrites. Print from Earth and Planetary Science Letters 1, Amsterdam 1966. 4 pages. Good. 5$ 44) ROWE M.W.Rowe: Xenomalies. Nininger Meteorite Award Paper Center for Meteorite Studies, ASU, Publication N°4, Tempe 1967 48 pages, Softcover. Mint. (It's about Xenon anomalies in meteorites). 43$ 45) BUSECK P.R.Buseck, J.J.Goldstein: Olivine Compositions and Cooling Rates of Pallasitic Meteorites. Geological Society of America Bulletin Vol.80, 1969 20 pages. 2 full-page plates: cut surface of OLLAGUE, 2 micrographs of Imilac. Very good. 25$ 46) MUELLER R.F.Mueller, E.J.Olsen: Mineral Assemblages and the Chemical History of Chondritic Meteorites. Fildiana - Geology Vol.16, N°15, Chicago 1969. 34 pages. Stamp of Rijks Geologisch Dienst Heerlen on front. Mint. 28$ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD: Library II - Monographs on other falls & finds.
Dear bookworms, Here already the next bundle of historic meteorite literature on single finds and falls. Again many first publication about the respective meteorite among them. (From yesterday still available are: 2) ANNAHEIM 3) BEAVER CREEK 4) BLITHFIELD 6b) CULLISON 12b) PERSIMMON CREEK ) Enjoy! (and my apologies for being sometimes slow - am still ill.) Martin Europe: 17) AARHUS A.V.Nielsen: The Path and Orbit of the Aarhus Meteorites. Meddelelser fra Ole Roemer-Observatoriet i Aarhus, N°23, 1953. No cover, 30 pages. Various diagrams. 5 pictures of smoke trail. Good condition. 30$ 18) AARHUS Callisen, Pauly: The Aarhus Meteorites. Matematisk-fysike Meddelelser, Kongelige Danske Videnskabernes Selskab, Vol.34, N°1, 1963 36 pages, incl. 4 full-page plates & 13 photos in text. Cover. Very good condition. 35$ 19) LUNDSGARD O.Nordenskjoeld: Kemisk undersökning af meteoriten fran OEstra Ljungby i Skane. Seperate print from Geol.Förhandl. N° 138, Vol.5, Stockholm 1891. 8 pages. Stamp of univ. Upsala on cover. Near mint. 22$ 20) MADRID S.B.Mirat: Analisis Quimico de una de las Piedras Meteóriticas que cayeron en Madrid del Bólido del 10 Febrero de 1896. Separate print from the journal "La Naturaleza", Madrid 1869 36 pages, University of Greifswald stamp on cover. 1 image in text. With handwritten personal dedication of the author to Emil Cohen. Very good condition. 80$ 21) ORGUEIL K.Bostroem, K.Fredriksson: Surface Conditions of the Orgueil Parent Body as indicated by Mineral Composition. Smithsonian Miscellaneous Collections Vol. 151, N°3. Publication 4467. Washington 1966 40 pages + Appendix 9 full-pages pictures and 5 pages diagrams. Stamp geolog. Bureau Heerlen on cover. Pages still unopened. Very good condition. 40$ 22) OVIFAK (pseudometeorite) Th.Nordstroem: Kemisk undersoekning af Meteorjern vran Ovifak pa Groenland. Öfversigt af Kongl. Vetenskaps-Akademiens Foerhandlingar N°4, Stockholm 1870. 10 pages, loose sheets. No cover. Stamp of the Upsala university on 1st page. Clean. (Remark: The natural iron from Disko island was thought to be meteoritic firstly.) 10$ Australia 23) Suite of articles of A.Liversidge >From the Journal and Proceedings of the Royal Society of New South Wales, Vol.16. Sydney 1882. BARRATTA The Deniliquin or Barratta Meteorite. BINGERA On the Bingera Meteorite, New South Wales. + 2 mineralogical articles: On the Chemical Composition of certain Rocks, New South Wales, &c. Rocks from New Britain and New Ireland. 60 pages. Pages loose. Two full-page plates of the Barratta mass. 1 full-page plate of Bingera from all sides (all three to be framed for Jeff's office..), 2 full-page plate of micro-photos of rocks. Condition: o.k. But plates are clean. 25$ 24) CAROLINE F.L.Stillwell: The Caroline Stony Meteorite. Separate print from Memoires of the National Museum, Melbourne 1941. 10 pages. 1 Full-page table with a view of the mass and 4 microscopic images. Light foxing of upper edge. University of Melbourne stamp: Separate Publication 236 and University of Delft (?) stamp on cover. Large 4° Good condition. 20$ South America: 25) BENDEGO O.A.Derby: Edtudo sobre o Meteorito de Bendegó. Separate print from Archivos do Museu Nacional do Rio de Janeiro. Rio de Janeiro 1896. Text in Portuguese and English. Folio(!). 98 pages. 26 images and engravings. Stamp of univ. Delft(?) and handwritten dedication (with a little text loss) of the author on cover. Good. 110$ Asia: 26) CHAINPUR K.Keil, B.Mason, H.B.Wiik: The Chainpur Meteorite American Museum Novitates N°2173, New York 1964 28 Pages. 1 photmicrograph, various diagrams. Multnomah County Library stamp on front. Very good copy. 18$ 27) GOALPARA N.Teclu: Chemische Untersuchung des Meteoriten von Goalpara in Assam (Indien). Sitzungsberichter der kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Vol.62, Vienna 1870. 3 pages. University Greifswald stamp on front. Condition: O.k. 5$ 28) NGAWI E.H.v.Baumhauer: Over den op 3 October 1883 te Ngawi in Midden-Java gevallen Meteorit. Separate print from Mededeelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen, Amsterdam 1884 18 pages + 2 full-pages with views oft he meteorite, cross & thin section. University Delft(?) stamp on cover. Enclosed a flyer for a lecture of Baumhauer about the meteorite on 24th April 1884. Fine - good condition. 28$ 29) NGAMI Like 28) but in French. >From Archives Neerlandaises, Vol.19, 1884 Larger format than 28), therefore 12 pages text + 2 full-page plates. University Delft(?) stamp on cover. Back of cover loose. Good. 32$ 30) TJABE E.H.v.Baumhauer: Over den Meteoriet van Tjabé in Nederlandisch Indie. Separate print from Mededeelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen, Amsterdam 1871 20 pages. University Delft(?) stamp on cover. Very good condition. 25$ The Moon: 31) LUNA 16 & 20 A.Cimbálníková, K.Jurek: Metallic Particles from LUNA 16 and LUNA 20 Regolith. Morphological features and
[meteorite-list] AD: Library I - Monographs on U.S.- & Canadian falls.
Dear meteorite friends, this week and the weeks to follow shall here be offered some antiquarian meteorite literature. Today we start with monographs on single falls/finds from USA & Canada. Often these are bare articles without covers (if not noted else), like they parallel were issued to the scientific journals, where the were included. As you easily can see on the years, many of the following offers were the 1st publication on the respective meteorite at all. Prices without shipping (combined shipping available). Enjoy, Martin 1) ALLEGAN & MART George P.Merrill, H.N.Stokes: A New Stony Meteorite from Allegan, Michigan, and a new Iron Meteorite from Mart, Texas. Proceedings of Washington Academy of Science, Vol.II, pp. 41-68, Washington 1900 Large 4°, outer cover slightly lacerated, else very good condition (partially pages not yet cut open). 6 full-page plates with pictures of the meteorites and microscopic images. 40$ 2) ANNAHEIM R.A.A.Johnston, H.V.Ellsworth: The Annaheim Meteorite Transactions of the Royal Society of Canada Vol.15, Section IV, pp.69-120, 1921 14 full-page plates (Meteorite & microscopic images), 1 map & 2 drawings in text. Clean and good condition. 30$ 3) BEAVER CREEK E.E.Howell: Beaver Creek Meteorite, >From the American Journal of Science, Vol.47, 1894 6 pages, with a scetch of the stone in text, library stamp (Upsala) on front page and a loose card, reading: "With compliments of W.F.Hillebrand - U.S. Geological Survey - Washington D.C." 14$ 4) BLITHFIELD R.A.A.Johnston, M.F.Connor: The Blithfield Meteorite. Transactions of the Royal Society of Canada, Vol.16, Section IV, 1922 12 pages, 2 full-page plates (meteorite & thin section). Very good condition. 20$ 5) BRUDERHEIM A Suite of Articles from the Journal of Geophysical Research Vol.60, N°10, 1961 Honda, Umemoto, Arnold: Radioactive Species Produced by Cosmic Rays in Bruderheim and Other Stone Meteorites. Fireman, DeFelice: Tritium, Argon 37, and Argon 39 in the Bruderheim Meteorite. Rowe, Van Dilla: On the Radioactivity of the Bruderheim Meteorite. Duke, Maynes, Brown: The Petrography and Chemical Composition of the Bruderheim Meteorite. Baadsgaard, Campbell, Folinsbee: The Bruderheim Meteorite. Clarke, Thode: Xenon in the Bruderheim Meteorite. Shima, Thode: The Sulfur Isotope Abundances in Abee and Bruderheim Meteorites. Ehmann, Amiruddin, Rushbrook, Hurst: Some Trace Element Abundances in the Bruderheim Meteorite Plus Jeffrey, Reynolds: Excess of Xenon129 in Stone Meteorites. Stauffer, Honda: Cosmic-Ray-Produced V50 in the Iron Meteorite Aroos. 45 pages, good condition. 1 photo, 1 strewn-ellipse-map. 25$ 6a) CULLISON P.Merill: A Newly Found Meteorite from Near Cullison, Pratt County, Kansas. Proceedings U.S. National Museum, Vol. 44, 1913 10 pages, 2 full-page plates (views of the meteorite & cross sections). Near mint condition. 22$ 6b) Like 6a) but condition: good. 16$ 7) CUMBERLAND FALLS George P.Merril: The Cumberland Falls, Whitley County, Kentucky, Meteorite. Proceedings U.S. National Museum, Vol. 57, 1920 14 pages. 5 pages with various views of the meteorites, 1 figure in text. Binding somewhat loose, else good condition. 20$ 8) GLORIETA MOUNTAIN G.F.Kunz: On Three Masses of Meteoritic Iron from Glorieta Mountain, near Canoncito, Santa Fe County, New Mexico. American Journal of Science Vol.30, 1885 Cover. 12 pages. 4 full-page plates with scetches from the masses and a direct print from an etched slice. Very good condition. 30$ 9) HENDERSONVILLE George P.Merril, Wirt Tassin: Notes on the Composition and Structure of the Hendersonville, North Carolina, Meteorite. Proceedings U.S. National Museum, Vol. 32, 1907 8 pages. 1 page views of the meteorite, 1 page microscopic images, 1 picture of a section in text.. Very good condition. 16$ 10) JOHNSTOWN E.O.Hovey: A New Meteoritic Stone from Johnstown, Weld County, Colorado. American Museum Novitates N°203, New York 1925 14 pages. 1 full-page map, 1 full-page plate with meteorite, 4 microscopic figures in text. Good - very good condition 20$ 11a) MOUNT VERNON W.Tassin: The Mount Vernon Meteorite. Proceedings U.S. National Museum, Vol. 28, 1905 5 pages text + 2 full-page plates (Meteorite entire & large cross-section). Good - very good condition. 15$ 11b) MOUNT VERNON (like 11a) ) 15$ 12a) PERSIMMON CREEK W.Tassin: The Persimmon Creek Meteorite. Smithsonian Inst, U.S. Nat. Museum, Washington 1904. Cover, with stamp of the Royal University Greifswald (where E.Cohen worked). 14 pages, 2 full-page plates (meteorite & cross sections), 1 figure (Thin Section) in text. Some foxings, condition: fine. 25$ 12b) PERSIMMON CREEK Same like 12a) but without cover and from Proceedings U.S. National Museum, Vol. 27, 1904 Good condition 18$ 13) ROSE CITY E.O.Hovey: Aerolite from Rose City, Michigan. American Museum Novitates N°52, New York 1922 Cover. 8 Pages. Three full-page pictures of the stone. Ver
Re: [meteorite-list] A silly question about South Korean Meteorites
Korea isn't a white spot on the meteorite-map at all. Look here: http://koreamet.kopri.re.kr/ Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic Stone & Ironworks Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Oktober 2012 04:01 An: Meteorite List Betreff: [meteorite-list] A silly question about South Korean Meteorites Hi Listees, Just a curious idle question here. I've had sales from almost every corner of the world. Occasionally I get a sale from a remote place that I am unfamiliar with and I have to Google it to see where the heck it is. (Cook Islands anyone?) When it comes to Asia, I have customers in Vietnam, Japan, China, Mongolia, the Philippines, and Taiwan. But I have never had a sale to South Korea. This seems odd to me, since I have several dozen Twitter followers in South Korea, and South Korea seems like a more likely place to generate sales than Mongolia or Vietnam. Thinking on this, South Korea seems like a void in a meteorite world. We hear about meteorite falls in China. There are meteorite dealers in Taiwan, Japan, China, and Vietnam. But I never hear anything about meteorites, meteorite dealing, or meteorite collecting in South Korea. So, what's the deal with South Korea? Is this just an anomaly for me? Are other dealers getting sales to South Korea? Do I need to open a regional Galactic Stone office in Seoul to spread the word? Trivia : According to the Met Bulletin, there are 3 official meteorites (all falls) from South Korea - Duwun (L6, 1943), Gyokukei (OC, 1933), and Unkoku (OC, 1924). Apparently there have been no meteorite finds or falls recovered in South Korea in the last 69 years. Best regards, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM Law vs Type Sample
"to provoke the intellectual minds.." My intellect is anyway too small for these new rules. Wasn't it so in your country, That until now an Irving, a Bunch, a Wasson, a Garvie and so on... and nobody else, determined a rock to be a meteorite? So in any case, when you go on BLM land, in first instance you will be always collecting rocks there and not meteorites, Therefore these rules do not apply. Or do BLM or FED officers in the field exist, who could tell a chondrite apart from a terrestrial rock or who could identify an achondrite by visual inspection? Could be a field of job creation: Federal Meteorite Ranger! (Ehm... the first US lunar will have a weight of 76 kgs. Do I have to smash the stone in pieces, to harvest year by year the allowed weight limit? Also it's said, that the permit fees could be calculated as a percentage of a fair market value - WHEN will I be charged? Do I have a chance to organize a loan, or do I have to commit suicide, because I simply won't have the percentage of the value of the 76kgs US-lunar at hand? Can I invite laymen to go hunting with me, who don't need a permit, as they aren't commercial dealers? They could transfer ownership of the finds to me in giving the finds as a gift to me, which would be no bartering.) Seems a little bit callow, the whole affair. That the permit fee is a kind of an extra-tax, Phht...it's o.k. Say I, greeting from a country where the tax&dues quote fairly exceeds >>50%. ;-) Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Greg Hupé Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. Oktober 2012 20:03 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] BLM Law vs Type Sample The more I digest all of the new and clear BLM regs concerning meteorites and their distribution/handling, the more I wonder how that effects those who get meteorites classified that are found on BLM land. As we know, a scientific type sample is REQUIRED in order to get any meteorite classified and approved by the NomCom. In a way, the type sample may be considered 'bartering' in order for the meteorite to be recognized by the meteorite community. There are many American meteorites that are found on BLM land that reside in museums, were they donated with a later tax write-off for the individual finder/donator? Did the museum trade for said meteorite, if so, that is a no-no!! These are just a couple of quick thoughts to provoke the intellectual minds of our scientist and museum curator friends to discuss. Since I serious doubt any BLM main office is going to give us lowly occasional hunters the time of day, maybe our community is better served by those professionals who work with bureaucrats on a daily basis so our thoughts and concerns can be addressed more clearly and not on an Internet forum such as here! The American Meteorite Community: Between a Rock and a Hard Place... Greg __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
Hi, maybe the gang can ask here, for the actual legislation in place and its very wording, to end the speculations? http://www.portal.gsi.gov.in/gsiDoc/pub/dgco-contact-details.pdf Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MikeG Gesendet: Freitag, 20. Juli 2012 17:59 An: JoshuaTreeMuseum Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info Hi Gang, Some thoughts from the peanut gallery : UNESCO does not apply to meteorites. The British mandate/order in regards to Indian meteorites is over 120 years old and India is not longer a territory of the British crown. The late great O. Richard Norton was not a legal expert. Laws (and more importantly, their enforcement) vary from nation to nation, and from state to state within those nations. Without input from a legal expert fluent in international law, we are engaging in speculation and conjecture for the purpose of ethical posturing and mud-slinging. When one has a question about a law in a given state or nation, a good place to start inquiring is with a resident of that nation or state. Are there any members of this List or the IMCA who are residents of India? If so, let us ask them what the laws are and go from there. Are copies of the relevant laws or regulations available online? If so, can someone provide a link to these online resources? Meteorites involve a lot of grey areas - legally and ethically. Solid authoritative information on these laws is sorely lacking. Example - most of the Canyon Diablo specimens for sale are illegal. We know this because the laws here in the USA are easily found online, in local libraries, or by asking a local resident or official. The entire CD strewnfield is on private property or state of Arizona land that is leased to private owners. The owners or caretakers of these properties have made it known that prospecting for CD meteorites is an exercise in trespassing and theft. This is easily established. If people on this List want to start pointing fingers and making allegations, please start in an area where the laws (and their interpretation and enforcement) can be clearly referenced in an objective manner. Canadian and Australian laws in regards to meteorites are clearly known. There is no debate there. Ask a Canadian or Australian citizen. On the issue of Indian, Argentine, Algerian, or Omani meteorites, let us follow the same example - ask a citizen of the nation in question and go from there. The IMCA (or anyone else) cannot determine if a given meteorite specimen is legal, unless the history of that specific specimen is documented and the laws pertaining to that specimen are clearly known. An electron microprobe cannot determine *when* a meteorite was recovered. Was a Canyon Diablo meteorite recovered before it was illegal to do so? Who knows? This is a textbook definition of a grey area, and many other meteorites from other nations fall into the same category - Campo del Cielo, NWA 869, and a host of others. Until such a time when the date of recovery (and circumstances) can be objectively determined, we can only rely on the word and reputation of the seller or owner. What we are seeing in this public "debate" on legality is a lot of speculation and posturing, without any substance or authoritative knowledge. This mud-slinging contest is not doing the meteorite community any good - it makes us all look like a bunch of petty blowhards. One last comment - meteorites are a product of the cosmos. They have existed for billions of years before man crawled out of the primordial ooze and they will exist for billions of years after we people turn to dust. We are their temporary caretakers for an eye-blink of the galactic time scale. It is the height of arrogance for any man or nation to think they have exclusive legal rights over a product of the cosmos. What is a law? It was once legal in the USA to own another human being as a slave. Just because it was legal does not mean it was right. Laws can be wrong. Human beings can be wrong. As a collector or dealer of meteorites, the best thing one can do is to follow one's conscience. When holding a meteorite in hand, ask yourself - is science being harmed by this action? If not, then enjoy that meteorite. Best regards, MikeG -- --- Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo
Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
Hi, I always think, that debates about laws are vain, as long as one has not the very wordings of the law at hand. I don't have the Indian law at hand, neither I found anyone, who could show it to me, even those, who echo the date from the paper "1885" seem not to have it. I by my own found only the same words here: Circular No.22-1777, dated 10th of July, 1869, by T.H.Thornton, Secretary to Government Punjab, in continuation of circular No.13-975, dated 28th of April 1863, wich is, full quote of the text: “directing, that all Indian Meteorites shall be in future transmitted to the Trustees of the Indian Museum.” I have no idea, whether that had a status of a law or whether it was only a service regulations to the administrative officers. Both, that one and the quote by Schmitt say nothing about ownership, export, compensations ect. Then - India became independent in 1947 and in 1950 a republic. I'm not sure, whether the old laws from the British dominion are still in place. If they are btw. what does that mean for meteorites from Pakistan? Furthermore: Hey reported in 1967 to the UNESCO Working Group on Meteorites, that meteorites in India would be treated as "bona vacantia" as given in article 296 of the Indian constitution. Find the article here: http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/290059/ It says that those ownerless objects found on the territory of India, of that kind, which before would be accrued to the King, will be property of the state or federal state. Well, I'm not sure, who is meant be the "King" from former time. Was it the English King George, Emperor of India? And if so, was then British Law in place in the colony? Because if so, then like still today in U.K. (compare the hilarious debate in the House of Lords about the "meteorite bill"), finds of gold and silver belong to the crown, all other you can keep. Questions and questions... Answer can give only the law, which is in place today. But nobody ever saw it :-( Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: cdtuc...@cox.net [mailto:cdtuc...@cox.net] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. Juli 2012 19:55 An: Martin Altmann Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info Martin, Welcome back to posting. You have been missed. You said; "The information on India doubtful" This law is spelled out very specifically and includes the words aerolites. How much more specific could you ask? . . In what way do you doubt it? As it stands right now. Anybody with India's meteorites in their collection has a tainted collection. If this info is incorrect there are hundreds of people that would like this clarified. Please provide proof that this law is doubtful. Site references or something. Carl -- Cheers __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info
UNESCO-1970 is not a law, but it is a convention to harmonize national laws of the signing states. Meteorites can be protected only by national laws. (Like e.g Namibia, Canada, Australia, South-Africa did). That is given in the convention's text. Schmitt's information on Argentina is outdated. The information on New Zealand is wrong. The information on India doubtful. Also Switzerland has a different procedure. (And also from hearsay - under certain circumstances it seems possible for a finder to keep his Danekrae). Hence, that paper is not a reliable source. Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Sutters Mill - mass and stone count
Yep Count, Sodom & Gomorrah. No. Old men say, benchmark won't be that fall, benchmark was already Tagish Lake. Had arrived then at a before totally unseen and strange price. It happened after Tagish, that more and more observed falls were priced in a way, which nobody believed to be possible. From Neuschwanstein to Soltmany. Don't forget that it's - still - a regional phenomenon. Hold a Mifflin against a Buzzard. Mainly afflicting US- and European falls. (O.k. we all had bad luck, that that hammers-hysteria became a fashion, additionally driving prices). Alas, still you get the North African falls at prices, you never got any observed stone fall throughout the 200 years lasting history of meteoritics (with perhaps the exceptions of Alfianello, Allende, Gao-Guenie in the years after their fall). And old men say, that the very most meteorites, rarest, rare and common types, - the desert finds - are still remarkably cheaper than equivalent meteorites were in the 1990s. (Not to mention the 19th an most of the 20th century). Kommercialization Kitty jumps every 10 years out of the bag. (Huh, some weeks ago I read the catalogue of Partsch, giving the origins of the specimens of the early Vienna collection. Quite all was either directly or indirectly (swaps,donations) purchased from field, finders, dealers). So does the popularization poodle. When did meteorites get a broader attention? Started already in the 1980s. And then to a huge extend in the 1990s with the new media. Nevertheless what happened The revolting development happened in the 1st decade of the 2000s. Large amounts of new meteorites. Remarkable numbers of new rare finds. Complete price crash. Now we rather observe (of course with a few excesses) the return to normality. Hence no end of collecting. Il diavolo non è brutto quanto lo si dipinge ;-) The finds will get sparser, the collection specimens will get smaller. Nevertheless, believe me, it prepossesses myself with zero grain of satisfaction, that the prediction I and others years ago were ridiculed, came so fast true. Well, maybe another upside... Perhaps now meteorites in general won't be taken so much anymore for common commodities, for home decoration or something like Swiss cheese, but more appreciated as the rarest matter on Earth and samples of celestial bodies, inaccessible to mankind. Ciao, Martin PS: As always I could go wrong too... -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Count Deiro Gesendet: Dienstag, 1. Mai 2012 18:36 An: Randy Korotev; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Sutters Mill - mass and stone count Hi Listees, Well. Now one can see the effect of the popularization of meteorites, through their exposure in the mass media, on the general public. $4,000 a gram for an unclassified carbonaceous chondrite! I was asked yesterday to pay, what computed to be $3,000 a gram, for some Cali driveway crumbs. I wouldn't legitimize them by calling them "frags". And I have news for youone of our best known "johnny on the spot" hunter/collectors forked over $22,000 for a, less than 20 gram, broken piece! Yes, friends. You have just seen the end of an era in the collection and valuation of meteorites. This fall will go down, as Ruben said so presciently on national TV, as the most important fall in the history of the United States. Why? Because never again will we be allowed, almost unfettered access to public and private lands, nor will we be able to purchase, even fragments, for any sane amount of money. The proverbial cat is out of the bag. The "publik" will never let it be put back in again. But, there is an upside to this "revoltin development" (William Bendix - The Life of Riley- 1952). Just think of how much our collections just increased in value. :0) Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Updates - 2 NWA's and a Nova, and a Question regarding Nomenclature
Hi Jeff, should Paris then not rather have been named a "Nova" too than a "Paris"? (From the Bulletin Database: "Paris Unknown location" (..) "History: This sample was in an auction box lot bought by Jean-Jacques Corré at the Hotel des Ventes in Paris. The box was part of the estate of Jean Simon Colonna-Cimera, an "Ingénieur des Mines," who supervised mines in foreign countries and in the French Colonies. Corré thought that the stone might be a meteorite but kept it for 7 years before attempting to have it identified." Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jeff Grossman Gesendet: Montag, 23. April 2012 13:46 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Updates - 2 NWA's and a Nova, and a Question regarding Nomenclature The way it works is that meteorites are named based on how much certainty we have about where they come from. When we think the coordinates are accurate, we can name them after very local features. For things like NWA and Sahara meteorites, we have some confidence that they come from northwest Africa and the Sahara in general, but not much more than that. The hallmark of the Nova series is that we don't have any good information about where they were found, or, in some of the early ones, we thought that information was false. Nova 011 simply turned up in a market in Russia.There is no accompanying find story. Perhaps it's from Russia, perhaps it's an NWA, who knows. If there was some kind of find story indicating a local origin, we might have named it differently, perhaps South Russia or something like that. Jeff __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteoritefalls title?????? (Stuetz)
Yes he did, he tried also to find for Chladni the four of the five stones or irons of Miskolcz, which had fallen in 1559 and which were transported to the Vienna collection, but he was unable to locate them. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark Grossman Gesendet: Freitag, 13. April 2012 05:43 An: Chladnis Heirs; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteoritefalls title?? (Stuetz) Andreas Xavier Stütz changed his views about meteoritic fairy tales and lightning before he died. See my article on the Tabor meteorite in the May 2011 issue of Meteorite Magazine, which shows the change in his views based on the entries in the Catalogus Stützianus, Natural History Museum, Vienna. To my knowledge, my finding was previously unreported in the literature until it was published in Meteorite Magazine. Mark Mark Grossman Meteorite Manuscripts www.meteoritemanuscripts.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: "Chladnis Heirs" To: Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteoritefalls title?? (Stuetz) Hi Shawn, the paper by Andreas Xaver Stuetz, you're looking for, was published in Born's & Trebra's "Bergbaukunde", second volume, 1790. You have it here online: http://kuerzer.de/shawnstuetz Page 398 - 409. In fact he reports there from the fall of Eichstädt, mentions the Pallas-Iron and gives at length a report about the fall of Hraschina - with eyewitness observations, in translating the report about the fall by Wolfgang Kukulyewich, vicar of Agram. Here and there he gives some ironic remarks. Stuetz is classifying these reports as fairy tales, closing the article with a lengthy explanation, that these stones&irons were formed by lightning. Best! Martin & Stefan -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Donnerstag, 12. April 2012 10:25 An: Meteorite Central Betreff: [meteorite-list] What is Chladni's book on 18 meteorite falls title?? Hello Listers I am wondering if any of you history meteorite buffs by chance know the name of Chladni's book he wrote on 18 meteorites falls and if there might be an English pdf version floating around on the Internet or somewhere else? Also, I was trying to look for a copy of the paper titled "On Some Stones Allegedly Fallen from the Heaven" published in 1790 by Abbe Andreas Xavier Stutz which Chladni extensively quoted from when he was writing his book. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 ebay Store http://www.ebay.com/sch/ph0t0phl0w/m.html? http://www.meteoritefalls.com/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Man Claims Rockhaven Meteorite Find
Hi there, we shouldn't forget to applaud the Canadians here. While in former times they applied their laws in the strictest possible manner, not using the flexibility the laws allow, they meanwhile have profoundly changed the opus moderandi to a positive and for the generation of new and old meteoritic finds fruitful and fair way. Since then we observed a positive development - Buzzard Coulee, Springwater, Whitecourt... So I think one can say, that Canada acted exemplary, especially for these countries still suffering - regarding the decline or stagnation of the number of new finds or the volume of the tkws of old finds of national meteorites - under too strict legislation. Remark: The Schmitt-paper, at least I wouldn't commend it, as it is tendentious and contains central pieces of information, which were already at the time, when it was written, wrong. Especially the information about these countries are incorrect: New Zealand. Other than given there, meteorites are not defined as antiquities in the 1975/1990 acts. And these acts apply only on meteorites found in New Zealand. (That discrimination is important, as there exist countries, where meteorites in general, not only those found in the country, are subject to regulations and laws). Switzerland. There the finds are not owned by the cantons, but there is the right of preemption by the canton in effect. Denmark, there I heard by pers.comm. that the museum is deciding, whether an object is of unique scientific value and whether it will take the object, giving the deliverer a compensation/reward. If the decision is negative, the finder can keep it and won't need any permits for exportation neither. India, there I have no information, but here on the list was reported a case, where a meteorite was saif to be legally exported. UNESCO 1970, there the interpretation by Schmitt is legally not tenable. Using the technique of distorting omissions Schmitt applies in quoting Art 1, one could manage to give the impression that also farm products like bananas and corn would be defined as moveable cultural heritage too. But more important UNESCO 1970 is an agreement of harmonizing national legislation between states and does not apply to individual legal persons. A ratification of the convention by a country and/or the building of a national permitting agency does not set meteorites under the protection of the convention (which by the way are not mentioned at all in the convention's text). Only if meteorites are explicitly added to the individual national list of moveable heritage, which each ratifying country is obligated to set up, then they become subject to the UNESCO convention. Only a very few single countries of those, which have ratified the convention, did so. E.g. Australia and South Africa. So all in all, Chris, if already half of the essential core information of the paper had been proven wrong, I think it is not directly helpful to use it or to refer to it. It had caused already enough misunderstandings, especially the short form, the abstract of that paper, which was often referred to in media & press in past, when there were news about a new fall or a major find. Best, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Chris Spratt Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Februar 2012 23:15 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Man Claims Rockhaven Meteorite Find I've been questioned on my last post. My self and a fellow collector (also a Canadian) queried about re-exporting a repatriated Canadian meteorite and received this from Richard Herd curator of the National Meteorite Collection in Ottawa. "Once Canadian meteorites are repatriated, they become as they always were: cultural property (any mass even a nanogram) and subject to the Cultural Property Export and Import Act (1977); they need a permit to be re-exported regardless of their provenance/collection history. There has been debate about the so-called 35-year rule." Chris. Spratt Victoria, BC Canada __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite shipment stopped in Argentine Customs. Probably Campos
>We are talking large money here! Hmmm, Count, rather "they" talk large money... Sales value in USA 1.4 - 3.1 million USD. 2,395kg found... Would make a Campo-price per kilogram of 585$ - 1295$ ayyy !!! Mike G, your turn: All sales of Campo Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Count Deiro Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 17:35 An: eduardo jawerbaum; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite shipment stopped in Argentine Customs. Probably Campos Listees, Anybody want to guess who set this shipment up? We are talking large money here! I expected to see a post by one of our resident inquisitors outing the dealer involved. Is the name too big?? Illegal activity on this scale doesn't do any of us any good. Count Deiro IMCA 3536 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
Hi Doug, it was meant for fun, not for the silly discrimination which meteorites would be better than others. Though for an extreme purist of provenance and pedigree, those new finds could be indeed ideal. Cause he is then the founder of the pedigree, able to control the growth of the meteorite's family tree, that what he is missing so often with his historic specimens and their gaps from the day they once were picked up to the day he put it in his showcase. Do you remember still the times of the Dar al Ganis? There for the collector it was something new and something extremely thrilling, that you could become the owner of a complete find or a main mass and no matter whether it was an old OC. And that for the same reasons I tried to mention. Because in the post-Nininger-, post-Huss-, pre-desert-era with its only 2500 meteorites + Antarctics, that was really a difficult task. And if you remember those desert finds, they had a special prestige too, Lucky 13, Calcalong, DaG 400, NWA 032... That opened a new aspect and new possibilities in meteorite collecting. Well of course it's the individual habit and taste, which particular meteorites will make the individual collector happy. Collecting of, in a manner of speaking - "vintage" meteorites - sorry for the flat joke, all they have their 4.5 billion years - has without doubt also very satisfying and interesting aspects. Though I find also the idea fascinating and attractive, that - although one needs certainly some patience - that in 40, 50 years I can say - I lived and participated in the Golden Age of the Big Harvest, where so many of the today so prominent (and desirable) meteorites were recovered. Aura and patina - just some patience and they will come. Doug, wouldn't you love to jump in the time-machine to be there, when Shergotty was distributed, or to gather one of the first Krinov-Sikhotes - or to the year, where the now so popular Murchisons were sent for pennies around the globe? And I'm convinced, that they in their very beginning were as boring for the collectors like today for the historics fan a Tamdakht or a Bassikonou is boring. Huh funny thought, that then in 50, 100 years they could speak about the people we have here on the list, and it could be well possible, as we have an inflation of communication compared to then, that the collectors will speak about them like today about Foote or Ward and so on. Meteorites are the oldest matter we can grasp, we are getting old... If we allow us only a little longer interval on the time bar as a perspective, instead to pause in the here & now, then, I tink, these new finds could develop a very thrilling attractiveness.. Best wishes! Martin PS: >That's a new one on me! And > Respectfully, who made that rule? "A meteorite is born, when it is published in the Bulletin." The convention :-( Unpublished meteorites tend to get forgotten with time. And then they are just like those meteorites, which remained unfound. Note btw. also with the known meteorites and the tkws, especially the mass finds, that there in the end and quoted since, were always the weights, once published and overtaken in the Bulletins respectively in the first Catalogues. No matter how much was found later on after the first report in literature. Or take a more recent fall, like Lampyairie or what his name was. Hardly anyone remembers it after 10 years, and as it wasn't recorded in the Bulletin, I fear in another 20 years that fall will never have existed. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
Hmm Don & Doug, if you have such concerns about provenance, you could easily avoid the sorrows. A meteorite is born, when it is published in the Bulletin. So be the second link in the chain. Buy NWAs from the main mass holder given in the Bulletin and Oman and new U.S.-desert finds from the finders listed there. Provenance at its best. That's the true revolution in pedigree-specimens-collecting. Not possible to that degree for 200 years. Be for following generations the seed leaf in the family tree of a meteorite. Best, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MexicoDoug Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2012 02:26 An: dmerc...@rochester.rr.com; countde...@earthlink.net; jasonu...@gmail.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough Don M wrote: "A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can then be brought up on the specimens validity." Hi Don, Have you noticed lately we are seeing a number of dealers advertising spectacular falls in micro for weekl on the list? Every time I get excited just to see, Oh, another hammer job... not my cup of tea but delicious anyway. I noticed you had some very nice sub-gram material from Rob Elliot in your last advertised auctions on the list. Now, whenever someone buys a 3 gram specimen from poor Rob and takes the hammer to it, do we get included a free conversation with him that he gave a good deal on it to someone who then proceeded to smash it into a hundred pieces and now as the piece's grandpa has inherited the responsibility to take everyone by the hand, intelligent and "not so much", to explain how the material was originally acquired from the BM? In my opinion, certainly not! The prime sources for this material can't be responsible for every atomic sized piece that falls off the end of a hammer when some buyer gets the idea he is going to be a meteorite speck dealer. I am not inferring you did the hammer maneuver, BTW, but even if you did, regardless of what I think about micros, it is a perfectly legal way to deal whether I like it or not and I have been tempted to bid on your auctions sometimes when they are larger. There can be a fine line between overdoing provenance as a marketing gimmick and using it, in the context of a dozen other factors to make an informed purchase. From your passion and enthusiasm, I suspect keeping provenance sacred is of prime importance. However, unfortunately the authorities to be still aren't issuing meteorite birth certificates, although some have come frightfully close as of late (frightfully, I say because this new strategy completely excludes me as a primary customer due to the price tag attached, all the while kilos are stockpiled for someone's self-directed retirement account. [Now, that I respect, but it strikes me as greedy - note to Doug: put this statement in the opinion section, you have no right to imply this is bad form until you, Doug, are faced with your own private Esquel]) I applaud your enthusiasm but do ask you to consider alternate situations which don't fit your concept of a meteorite passing from hand to hand in a neat little chain, since this is a very complicated can of sardines that doesn't lend itself to blanket statements. As we all know a chain is as strong as its weakest link, and if someone is dishonest it really becomes an issue for independent scientific verification - because then and only then - the stone must speak. No pile of papers unless photo documented in a Dewey decimal system is beyond a con artist's talent in this day and you must come to grips that sometimes asking to see the pier and stilt foundations of an old houseboat isn't going to happen, even while falling in love with the updated cabinetry in the kitchen! The bottom line is, the buyer has the right and obligation to his own wallet to make his own valuation and not lose his head in a speculative excitement. A set of provenance tags works in some cases, but in most cases it doesn't. That was intended to be more analytical than opinionated. Now let me give my opinion: Micros should *never* be purchased for a higher $/g rate than macro specimens. While I always wince when hearing how I must do something to guarantee the future of my children, if I could figure a way to do this, l would say the same thing. Maybe that's one of the non-scientific reasons I am so in love with the Tatahouine meteorite. When you break it - it's worth less, and it is refreshing to know that except for a few talented slicer folk out there experimenting with sections, most of the large pieces will be conserved for posterity, always convincingly recognizable, and this, because the market determined value the way *I said*. Ok, now I apologize, I understand I am lucky to be particip
Re: [meteorite-list] Tata-Foumzgit Martian Fall. (Why no lunar falls? and freshest lunar?)
Hmmm short glance on the older papers on google, tells that Dhofar 026, NWA 032, NWA 492, and I guess also SaU 169 do have terrestrial ages of 10 000years and less. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Galactic Stone & Ironworks [mailto:meteoritem...@gmail.com] Gesendet: Samstag, 14. Januar 2012 19:11 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Tata-Foumzgit Martian Fall. (Why no lunar falls? and freshest lunar?) Hi Doug, Martin, and List, I know nothing of the mathematics and modeling of meteoroid impact rates, but it strikes me as anomalous (statistically) that we don't have any lunar falls yet. It seems likely that there have been lunar falls, but they were never recovered or recognized. I agree with Martin when he says we should savor the energy that this new fall brings, because it shouldn't happen again (statistically) for another ~50 years. It felt very special to hold a sample from this fall only months after it fell to Earth. To hold the freshest Martian is far more exciting than to hold the freshest ordinary chondrite. And I would think many collectors would agree, that to experience that same thrill with a fresh lunar would be a great sequel to this Martian event. :) On a related note, a question - what is the freshest lunar on record? In terms of terrestrial age, what lunaite has the most recent fall? Best regards, MikeG -- * Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone *** On 1/14/12, Martin Altmann wrote: > Yep, > > also the modelling by Gladman, that 5% of the ejecta from Mars will fall on > Earth, but that 50% of the rocks released from Earth/Moon will be collected > by the Earth-Moon-system again, > tells something about probabilities, but not about the absolute frequency, > how often an impact on Moon and Mars releases rocks into space. > > Also the notion, that a rock blasted off from Moon will jump more or less > directly on Earth is somewhat incorrect. We have exposure ages for the > lunars, partially, where we weren't sitting in the trees yet - up to more > than a dozen millions of years, where that stuff was orbiting around the > sun. > > But, folks. > > Chassigny, that was Waterloo, Congress of Vienna and Beethoven still > composing symphonies - Shergotty, there you had just finished the Civil War > and Lewis published Alice in Wonderland - Nakhla, the Mexican Revolution, > Agadir-crisis, and the Titanic is launched - Zagami = the Cuban Missiles > Crises, Algerian independence war, > And the Ford Edsel was skipped! > > And you, you know now for 3 weeks from the new Martian fall; after such an > eternity > - though now you're yearning for a lunar fall? > > Huh. Enjoy rather the momentousness of that event, grab rather the best > individuals you can, before you have to wait again until 2062, when you'll > have the next opportunity to do so! > > :-) > Martin > > > > __ > HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Tata-Foumzgit Martian Fall. The most significant fall of this century?
Yep, also the modelling by Gladman, that 5% of the ejecta from Mars will fall on Earth, but that 50% of the rocks released from Earth/Moon will be collected by the Earth-Moon-system again, tells something about probabilities, but not about the absolute frequency, how often an impact on Moon and Mars releases rocks into space. Also the notion, that a rock blasted off from Moon will jump more or less directly on Earth is somewhat incorrect. We have exposure ages for the lunars, partially, where we weren't sitting in the trees yet - up to more than a dozen millions of years, where that stuff was orbiting around the sun. But, folks. Chassigny, that was Waterloo, Congress of Vienna and Beethoven still composing symphonies - Shergotty, there you had just finished the Civil War and Lewis published Alice in Wonderland - Nakhla, the Mexican Revolution, Agadir-crisis, and the Titanic is launched - Zagami = the Cuban Missiles Crises, Algerian independence war, And the Ford Edsel was skipped! And you, you know now for 3 weeks from the new Martian fall; after such an eternity - though now you're yearning for a lunar fall? Huh. Enjoy rather the momentousness of that event, grab rather the best individuals you can, before you have to wait again until 2062, when you'll have the next opportunity to do so! :-) Martin __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] What's going on in the background?
Oops! http://www.wga.hu/art/r/raphael/5roma/1/07folig1.jpg ☺ Martin __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Some interesting meteorite falls of the last two centuries
Little addendum, >And what happened of the one that fell in New Zealand? >Anyone knows the Ellerslie stone was purchased by the Auckland War Memorial Museum at then approx. 30,000USD. http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/55/recent-acquisitions And there it still is, so maybe someone could ask the curator of the Nat.Hist.Section there, why Ellerslie hasn't made it yet into the Bulletin. Best! Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
