Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
As Adam predicts, the oxymoron will emerge. Public Land unavialable to the publicalready happening en masse with our forestsgates locked, supposedly to protect public lands from the public. Pogo said is well, "We have met then Enemy, and it is us!" I've been looking for the constitutional authority to do all thisstill looking. -Richard M - Original Message - From: "Adam Hupe" To: "Adam" Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? The problem is we already have self-proclaimed spokespeople working our behalf. You will find them showing off the latest Mohave finds in front of the media or selling them on eBay claiming they are worth an outrageous fortune for full effect. The BLM claims that increased publicity has made them aware of the need to protect this exceedingly valuable treasure from space at all costs. This has hastened the end of a fine and wholesome avocation. I would like to take this opportunity to thank those responsible for the soon-to-come complete closure of public land and the government for doing a fine job of protecting meteorites. For the record, I have never sold any meteorite I have found on public land. I guess the 10.1 pounder will have to be left in the field or buried so somebody else doesn't accidentally find it and be tempted to break the law. Joyful Hunting, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
List, I humbly submit how I would revise the BLM memorandum with a few minor additions/clarifications, and a reversion to the previously established limit of 25-lbs per person per day. I would love to read others' suggestions as to what would constitute an acceptable policy. http://imageshack.us/a/img854/8485/blmrevmpm.jpg Regards, Michael in so. Cal. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Concerned list members, Just remember that there are still places in our US national lands where it is illegal to pick up even rocks (and not just areas you would expect like National Parks); be sure to do your homework! Michael in so. Cal. On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Count Deiro wrote: > > Very cool way of thinking. Love it. > > Guido > > -Original Message- > >From: Chris Spratt > >Sent: Oct 2, 2012 12:39 PM > >To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? > > > >I always thought that a rock was just a rock, until it is classified > >officially as a meteorite. So to me all those "unofficial meteorites" > >out there are just rocks, until proven otherwise by rigorous scientific > >examination and a subsequent meteorite classification. > > > >Chris Spratt > >Victoria, BC > >__ > > > >Visit the Archives at > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >Meteorite-list mailing list > >Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > __ > > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Very cool way of thinking. Love it. Guido -Original Message- >From: Chris Spratt >Sent: Oct 2, 2012 12:39 PM >To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? > >I always thought that a rock was just a rock, until it is classified >officially as a meteorite. So to me all those "unofficial meteorites" >out there are just rocks, until proven otherwise by rigorous scientific >examination and a subsequent meteorite classification. > >Chris Spratt >Victoria, BC >__ > >Visit the Archives at >http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Chris, haven't you heard the news? All BLM field offices now have electron microprobes and planetary geologists to examine finds.. As one friend of mine recently told me off-list - enforcement of these regulations will be next to impossible. In theory, nothing will change because nobody in the BLM is qualified to determine what is a meteorite and what is not. (unless it's a new fall, and even then, it's just a rock until it's formally analyzed). -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 10/2/12, Chris Spratt wrote: > I always thought that a rock was just a rock, until it is classified > officially as a meteorite. So to me all those "unofficial meteorites" > out there are just rocks, until proven otherwise by rigorous scientific > examination and a subsequent meteorite classification. > > Chris Spratt > Victoria, BC > __ > > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
I always thought that a rock was just a rock, until it is classified officially as a meteorite. So to me all those "unofficial meteorites" out there are just rocks, until proven otherwise by rigorous scientific examination and a subsequent meteorite classification. Chris Spratt Victoria, BC __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
I don't know Gregg the question is did you ask for a television if you did that might be totally out of the question! Jim Wooddell - Mobile Greg Hupé wrote: >I always love early morning hikes through the desert looking for my beloved >Beanie Babies, such a fulfilling hobby! I never attempt to capture them or >molest them in any way, photos only using a 600mm zoom lens as to not >interfere with their morning feeding activities. They are extremely rare out >of captivity so when ever I spot one in the wild it is most gratifying!! > >I believe I am going to change my career and hobby path in life. I have >thought about this over the last few weeks and decided that I will apply to >be a BLM officer and approach my new bosses about being the point officer in >charge of identifying suspect meteorites found by the casual hunter, >scientists and the rare professional desert hunter/dealer. Said 'meteorites' >would have to come to me in my cushy air conditioned office and it would be >at my sole discretion to decide if a particular rock is a meteorite or not. >As part of my negotiated pay working for the BLM, I would of course have >been authorized a FREE life-time casual/scientific/commercial permit in >order to take these bogus stones from 'the vacationist' and line my person >garden with them. On my days off I would go hunt for meteorites and maybe >'get lucky' every now and then. With my special new "Casual >Collector/Scientific/Commercial" badge, I could hunt to my hearts desire and >do with any finds as I wish. But remember, this is because I negotiated for >this shiny special badge as part of my monthly paycheck so it would be like >buying said permit(s) anyway!! > >Hope everyone has a fabulous day, and be sure to Rock On!! :) > >Best Regards, >Greg > > >-Original Message- >From: Jim Wooddell >Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 10:29 AM >To: Meteorite List >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? > >Hi Norm and all! > >Here is some clarification info and such > >I do not know anyone who has gone through the permit process to obtain >a permit the priviledge of hunting meteorites on BLM land. Not sure >it has ever been required or any have ever been issued. I do not know >a current dealer / hunter that has permits to hunt meteorites on BLM >land. Can you share some examples? > > >I am not a lawyer and can not offer anything but my own opinion based >on information I have gathered communicating with various BLM >representatives, both local and national level. I am not trying to >share BS here, only sharing information. These new rules do not >affect me as an amateur Meteorite hunter. They do effect me as an >amateur researcher for science. > >I believe the BLM's new rules on meteorites do clarify much of what >the meteorite hunting community knew. The question on the use of >metal detectors for example, was in question by many. This issue is >now clarified in favor of all hunters. However, I want to point out >that local policy for any specific area could be different based on >the local Land Use Plan, which I think is the ultimate policy for a >given area. > >They have defined meteorite hunters and operation into three users of the >land. > >The first type of user is the "casual" or hobby collector. They are >individuals or groups of individuals who enjoy getting out and using >the land and find meteorites. They can keep what they find but can >not sell it. There is no permit required for this. >Note it does NOT clarifiy ownership for the casual collector. The >fact they say you can not sell it suggests a finder is NOT the owner. > >The second type of user is the researcher, scientist, or museum >curator who is collecting for their research or exhibit in a museum or >other educational institutions. This DOES require a permit. The >permit will be issued, if approved, under the authority of the >Antiquities Act. The meteorite is still federal property, i.e., the >government is responsible for the care of the specimen because it is >required to be kept in perpetuity by the institution for the public's >benefit and enjoyment. It has the status of a national treasure, to >be cared for with certain requirements to preserve the specimen. >There are no fees for this type of permit because it is benefiting the >public. > > >The third type of user is a commercial collector or dealer. I called >them “professionals.” BLM calls them Commercial. They are out to >make a profit from what they collect from public lands. As with other >commercial commodities that the BLM is responsible for, e.g., sand and >gravel, coal,
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
The problem is we already have self-proclaimed spokespeople working our behalf. You will find them showing off the latest Mohave finds in front of the media or selling them on eBay claiming they are worth an outrageous fortune for full effect. The BLM claims that increased publicity has made them aware of the need to protect this exceedingly valuable treasure from space at all costs. This has hastened the end of a fine and wholesome avocation. I would like to take this opportunity to thank those responsible for the soon-to-come complete closure of public land and the government for doing a fine job of protecting meteorites. For the record, I have never sold any meteorite I have found on public land. I guess the 10.1 pounder will have to be left in the field or buried so somebody else doesn't accidentally find it and be tempted to break the law. Joyful Hunting, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Hi Greg and List, I enjoyed your post, but there is a small nugget of an idea in there that might be worth thinking about. It's obvious that very few (if any) people in the BLM know the first thing about meteorites, meteorite hunting, or the meteorite market. They are making and implementing rules without any input from the meteorite community, to our collective detriment. Wouldn't it be nice (relatively speaking) if someone from the meteorite community "infiltrated" the BLM and provided an inside voice of reason during meteorite discussions? If there was someone, like Greg, who is an experienced meteorite authority, who could confirm finds and advocate on the behalf of the meteorite community, then maybe we could mitigate the foolishness of the BLM. I know it sounds unrealistic, but how hard would it be for someone in the meteorite world to secure a job within the BLM? If we do nothing, or sit outside and gripe, the BLM is going to continue doing what it does best - regulate and ensure that major mining and energy corporations have preferential access to lands, while meteorite hunters are treated like pillagers and thieves. Strip-mining, fracking, and poisoning the land is OK, picking up meteorites is not. Apparently, the problem with meteorite hunting is - we don't have billionaire-funded lobbyists in expensive suits flying around to BLM field office in private jets to advocate for our rights over 5-martini power lunches. The next best thing, would be someone like Greg working inside the agency to temper the regulatory fever. Best regards, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 10/2/12, Greg Hupé wrote: > I always love early morning hikes through the desert looking for my beloved > > Beanie Babies, such a fulfilling hobby! I never attempt to capture them or > molest them in any way, photos only using a 600mm zoom lens as to not > interfere with their morning feeding activities. They are extremely rare out > > of captivity so when ever I spot one in the wild it is most gratifying!! > > I believe I am going to change my career and hobby path in life. I have > thought about this over the last few weeks and decided that I will apply to > > be a BLM officer and approach my new bosses about being the point officer in > > charge of identifying suspect meteorites found by the casual hunter, > scientists and the rare professional desert hunter/dealer. Said 'meteorites' > > would have to come to me in my cushy air conditioned office and it would be > > at my sole discretion to decide if a particular rock is a meteorite or not. > > As part of my negotiated pay working for the BLM, I would of course have > been authorized a FREE life-time casual/scientific/commercial permit in > order to take these bogus stones from 'the vacationist' and line my person > garden with them. On my days off I would go hunt for meteorites and maybe > 'get lucky' every now and then. With my special new "Casual > Collector/Scientific/Commercial" badge, I could hunt to my hearts desire and > > do with any finds as I wish. But remember, this is because I negotiated for > > this shiny special badge as part of my monthly paycheck so it would be like > > buying said permit(s) anyway!! > > Hope everyone has a fabulous day, and be sure to Rock On!! :) > > Best Regards, > Greg > > > -Original Message- > From: Jim Wooddell > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 10:29 AM > To: Meteorite List > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? > > Hi Norm and all! > > Here is some clarification info and such > > I do not know anyone who has gone through the permit process to obtain > a permit the priviledge of hunting meteorites on BLM land. Not sure > it has ever been required or any have ever been issued. I do not know > a current dealer / hunter that has permits to hunt meteorites on BLM > land. Can you share some examples? > > > I am not a lawyer and can not offer anything but my own opinion based > on information I have gathered communicating with various BLM > representatives, both local and national level. I am not trying to > share BS here, only sharing information. These new rules do not > affect me as an amateur Meteorite hunter. They do effect me as an > amateur researcher for science. > > I believe the BLM's new rules on meteorites do clarify much of what > the meteorite hunting community knew. The question on the u
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
I always love early morning hikes through the desert looking for my beloved Beanie Babies, such a fulfilling hobby! I never attempt to capture them or molest them in any way, photos only using a 600mm zoom lens as to not interfere with their morning feeding activities. They are extremely rare out of captivity so when ever I spot one in the wild it is most gratifying!! I believe I am going to change my career and hobby path in life. I have thought about this over the last few weeks and decided that I will apply to be a BLM officer and approach my new bosses about being the point officer in charge of identifying suspect meteorites found by the casual hunter, scientists and the rare professional desert hunter/dealer. Said 'meteorites' would have to come to me in my cushy air conditioned office and it would be at my sole discretion to decide if a particular rock is a meteorite or not. As part of my negotiated pay working for the BLM, I would of course have been authorized a FREE life-time casual/scientific/commercial permit in order to take these bogus stones from 'the vacationist' and line my person garden with them. On my days off I would go hunt for meteorites and maybe 'get lucky' every now and then. With my special new "Casual Collector/Scientific/Commercial" badge, I could hunt to my hearts desire and do with any finds as I wish. But remember, this is because I negotiated for this shiny special badge as part of my monthly paycheck so it would be like buying said permit(s) anyway!! Hope everyone has a fabulous day, and be sure to Rock On!! :) Best Regards, Greg -Original Message- From: Jim Wooddell Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 10:29 AM To: Meteorite List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? Hi Norm and all! Here is some clarification info and such I do not know anyone who has gone through the permit process to obtain a permit the priviledge of hunting meteorites on BLM land. Not sure it has ever been required or any have ever been issued. I do not know a current dealer / hunter that has permits to hunt meteorites on BLM land. Can you share some examples? I am not a lawyer and can not offer anything but my own opinion based on information I have gathered communicating with various BLM representatives, both local and national level. I am not trying to share BS here, only sharing information. These new rules do not affect me as an amateur Meteorite hunter. They do effect me as an amateur researcher for science. I believe the BLM's new rules on meteorites do clarify much of what the meteorite hunting community knew. The question on the use of metal detectors for example, was in question by many. This issue is now clarified in favor of all hunters. However, I want to point out that local policy for any specific area could be different based on the local Land Use Plan, which I think is the ultimate policy for a given area. They have defined meteorite hunters and operation into three users of the land. The first type of user is the "casual" or hobby collector. They are individuals or groups of individuals who enjoy getting out and using the land and find meteorites. They can keep what they find but can not sell it. There is no permit required for this. Note it does NOT clarifiy ownership for the casual collector. The fact they say you can not sell it suggests a finder is NOT the owner. The second type of user is the researcher, scientist, or museum curator who is collecting for their research or exhibit in a museum or other educational institutions. This DOES require a permit. The permit will be issued, if approved, under the authority of the Antiquities Act. The meteorite is still federal property, i.e., the government is responsible for the care of the specimen because it is required to be kept in perpetuity by the institution for the public's benefit and enjoyment. It has the status of a national treasure, to be cared for with certain requirements to preserve the specimen. There are no fees for this type of permit because it is benefiting the public. The third type of user is a commercial collector or dealer. I called them “professionals.” BLM calls them Commercial. They are out to make a profit from what they collect from public lands. As with other commercial commodities that the BLM is responsible for, e.g., sand and gravel, coal, oil and gas, solar energy, wind energy, etc., they are required by various laws to collect basically a “royalty” that gets returned to the general Treasury’s public funds. This type of activity requires a permit and must be evaluated for environmental impacts under the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) and other various environmental laws. The processing of the permit and the environmental evaluations are part of the fees to process a permit. In addition, there may be a fee associated with monitoring, if it i
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Hi Norm and all! Here is some clarification info and such I do not know anyone who has gone through the permit process to obtain a permit the priviledge of hunting meteorites on BLM land. Not sure it has ever been required or any have ever been issued. I do not know a current dealer / hunter that has permits to hunt meteorites on BLM land. Can you share some examples? I am not a lawyer and can not offer anything but my own opinion based on information I have gathered communicating with various BLM representatives, both local and national level. I am not trying to share BS here, only sharing information. These new rules do not affect me as an amateur Meteorite hunter. They do effect me as an amateur researcher for science. I believe the BLM's new rules on meteorites do clarify much of what the meteorite hunting community knew. The question on the use of metal detectors for example, was in question by many. This issue is now clarified in favor of all hunters. However, I want to point out that local policy for any specific area could be different based on the local Land Use Plan, which I think is the ultimate policy for a given area. They have defined meteorite hunters and operation into three users of the land. The first type of user is the "casual" or hobby collector. They are individuals or groups of individuals who enjoy getting out and using the land and find meteorites. They can keep what they find but can not sell it. There is no permit required for this. Note it does NOT clarifiy ownership for the casual collector. The fact they say you can not sell it suggests a finder is NOT the owner. The second type of user is the researcher, scientist, or museum curator who is collecting for their research or exhibit in a museum or other educational institutions. This DOES require a permit. The permit will be issued, if approved, under the authority of the Antiquities Act. The meteorite is still federal property, i.e., the government is responsible for the care of the specimen because it is required to be kept in perpetuity by the institution for the public's benefit and enjoyment. It has the status of a national treasure, to be cared for with certain requirements to preserve the specimen. There are no fees for this type of permit because it is benefiting the public. The third type of user is a commercial collector or dealer. I called them “professionals.” BLM calls them Commercial. They are out to make a profit from what they collect from public lands. As with other commercial commodities that the BLM is responsible for, e.g., sand and gravel, coal, oil and gas, solar energy, wind energy, etc., they are required by various laws to collect basically a “royalty” that gets returned to the general Treasury’s public funds. This type of activity requires a permit and must be evaluated for environmental impacts under the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) and other various environmental laws. The processing of the permit and the environmental evaluations are part of the fees to process a permit. In addition, there may be a fee associated with monitoring, if it is required. Professionals who collect for museums and charge museums a fee are still considered commercial collectors, and require a permit. The BLM is using 43 CFR 2920 in regards to reviewing a permit application, fees, fair market value, etc. The CFR's are fairly clear. A local office in Arizona estimates the the permit process can take up to 185 days, which is the current time it is taking. As per 34 CFR 2920.2-1(a), it is highly recommended that you discuss the proposal as soon as you can with the authorized officer in an area. The authorized officer would be the one to approve the permit based on 2920.2-1(b). There is a possibility that the AO would determine that this could be a minimum impact permit as per 2920.2-2, because recovery of the meteorite material is usually from the surface with very little impacts during surface collection. Two things are imperative.. First, the local authorized officers need to be educated in the collection of meteorites and of critical importance, the need to recover fresh fallen meteorites as soon as possible. Second, based on conversations with BLM representatives, institutions such as those that study and curate meteorites can and should file permit applications that cover an entire state in a pro-active manor so that they or their volunteers can collect freshly fallen meteorites immediately after a fall. Still, this is up to the authorized officer for the state. The bottom line is that no one has any rights to collect meteorites on federal lands for profit or for science without permission from the BLM in the form of a permit. Science and dealer-hunters are those affected the most. It was made apparent the BLM knows who many of them are. Time will tell how this works out. I am only sharing information here. Most all of this can be referenced to communications with
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Yes a simple change in poundage limits... But also, more importantly, the new costs associated with new multiple permits required. Environmental surveys that weren't required before. And new unreasonable delays A greater possibility of getting hassled and/or a ticket. May seem like almost nothing new, but it's a new, significant burden to me. Thanks for playing the Devil's advocate - clear skies! Mark Sent from my iPod Touch - Original Message - From: Norm Lehrman To: Mark Bowling ; Meteorite List Cc: Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 6:13 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? I don't disagree with your thoughts. I am neither a defender nor an apologist for the BLM regs. I am simply stating that there is almost nothing new in the recently announced regs other than the poundage limitation. - Original Message From: Mark Bowling To: Meteorite List Sent: Mon, October 1, 2012 10:49:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? I disagree Norm, I'm not a commercial hunter. All the meteorites I find, I keep. But If I sell someday sell one stone (0.05% of the total I find), I'm considered a commercial hunter. If I trade one stone in a thousand, I'm considered a commercial hunter and I have to spend 5, 10 or 15 hundred dollars for the privilege to selling or trade a common $50 meteorite. If I get sick and have to sell my collection to pay medical bills or save my house, I'm breaking the law. Sure it's not likely they will not come get me, but I am on the slippery path of skirting the rule of law. At least before there wasn't an explicit rule against selling something now and then. I've never needed a permit to collect one decorative boulder on BLM land (maybe I've been breaking the law??). Still I think that me collecting one landscaping boulder every few years is quite different from someone selling hundreds of them to supplement their income. That definitely requires a permit because it's blatant commercial use. They say "casually collecting" meteorites is allowed free, without a permit. But a casual hobby hunter, who may someday TRADE a meteorite (even with a scientific institution), is required to wait an unspecified number of days (almost 200 days according to what Jim has learned) to purchase a commercial permit. The BLM states that an environmental survey will be required before a permit will be granted, and we don't know yet if they will require a new survey when you apply for a renewal (for the same couple days spent walking over the same land). I hunt maybe 10 days a year, and now I will have to pay several hundred dollars to be legal (maybe thousand because they charge you for the hours spent processing the paperwork, plus the time spent for the survey, plus time for enforcement and auditing my activities). And if they want to audit me, does that mean I have to schedule my hunts ahead of time. Is my permit only good for a fixed time period? They don't explain how long the permits are good for or if they are for a calendar year. It makes it very difficult to plan a hobby hunt. Most of my hunts are short notice. It's very difficult to plan 180 + days ahead of time. 10 days a year seems very casually collected to me, certainly not commercial collection. Say I apply for a hunt the summer of 2013, and they finally approve my permit months later - that leaves very little hunting time. And what if my only remaining vacation is Christmas/New Years break (do I need a new permit to complete my hunt?). Most hunters I know visit a site anytime they are able - they don't plan it out. If I want to hunt in Holbrook and then go to Gold Basin and Franconia (which I and many others do), do I need new permits and environmental surveys for each site? If I want to visit Benson, Arizona, Wilcox Playa, Dos Cabezas and then skip over to New Mexico, I'm leaving the State (which requires new permit applications). This is not a commercial activity, like a mine where you schedule activities decades out. The site the BLM directs us to for examples of how applications will be applied, example timelines and how the regulations are applied, is a site that discusses pipeline projects, solar farms, cell towers sites, etc. This is not put in place to govern meteorite collecting; it will be used to deter "commercial" (hobby) hunting and legitimate commercial hunting. 67% of Federal land is closed to mine exploration. I'd say ~50% is closed to metal detecting. Why do they want to restrict even more land available for us to hunt? Worst yet, this will drive meteorites more underground. Important scientific data will be lost to a greater degree. Locations will be faked more than ever before. With the criminalization of U.S. meteorites,
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
I don't disagree with your thoughts. I am neither a defender nor an apologist for the BLM regs. I am simply stating that there is almost nothing new in the recently announced regs other than the poundage limitation. - Original Message From: Mark Bowling To: Meteorite List Sent: Mon, October 1, 2012 10:49:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? I disagree Norm, I'm not a commercial hunter. All the meteorites I find, I keep. But If I sell someday sell one stone (0.05% of the total I find), I'm considered a commercial hunter. If I trade one stone in a thousand, I'm considered a commercial hunter and I have to spend 5, 10 or 15 hundred dollars for the privilege to selling or trade a common $50 meteorite. If I get sick and have to sell my collection to pay medical bills or save my house, I'm breaking the law. Sure it's not likely they will not come get me, but I am on the slippery path of skirting the rule of law. At least before there wasn't an explicit rule against selling something now and then. I've never needed a permit to collect one decorative boulder on BLM land (maybe I've been breaking the law??). Still I think that me collecting one landscaping boulder every few years is quite different from someone selling hundreds of them to supplement their income. That definitely requires a permit because it's blatant commercial use. They say "casually collecting" meteorites is allowed free, without a permit. But a casual hobby hunter, who may someday TRADE a meteorite (even with a scientific institution), is required to wait an unspecified number of days (almost 200 days according to what Jim has learned) to purchase a commercial permit. The BLM states that an environmental survey will be required before a permit will be granted, and we don't know yet if they will require a new survey when you apply for a renewal (for the same couple days spent walking over the same land). I hunt maybe 10 days a year, and now I will have to pay several hundred dollars to be legal (maybe thousand because they charge you for the hours spent processing the paperwork, plus the time spent for the survey, plus time for enforcement and auditing my activities). And if they want to audit me, does that mean I have to schedule my hunts ahead of time. Is my permit only good for a fixed time period? They don't explain how long the permits are good for or if they are for a calendar year. It makes it very difficult to plan a hobby hunt. Most of my hunts are short notice. It's very difficult to plan 180 + days ahead of time. 10 days a year seems very casually collected to me, certainly not commercial collection. Say I apply for a hunt the summer of 2013, and they finally approve my permit months later - that leaves very little hunting time. And what if my only remaining vacation is Christmas/New Years break (do I need a new permit to complete my hunt?). Most hunters I know visit a site anytime they are able - they don't plan it out. If I want to hunt in Holbrook and then go to Gold Basin and Franconia (which I and many others do), do I need new permits and environmental surveys for each site? If I want to visit Benson, Arizona, Wilcox Playa, Dos Cabezas and then skip over to New Mexico, I'm leaving the State (which requires new permit applications). This is not a commercial activity, like a mine where you schedule activities decades out. The site the BLM directs us to for examples of how applications will be applied, example timelines and how the regulations are applied, is a site that discusses pipeline projects, solar farms, cell towers sites, etc. This is not put in place to govern meteorite collecting; it will be used to deter "commercial" (hobby) hunting and legitimate commercial hunting. 67% of Federal land is closed to mine exploration. I'd say ~50% is closed to metal detecting. Why do they want to restrict even more land available for us to hunt? Worst yet, this will drive meteorites more underground. Important scientific data will be lost to a greater degree. Locations will be faked more than ever before. With the criminalization of U.S. meteorites, people may be less inclined to trade fresh material for U.S. material. Are pre-2012 meteorites grandfathered, or will all American meteorites be suspect? Even with proper papers from an institution, it can be expensive to prove yourself innocent (as this will be an environmental infraction, GUPI rules apply and good luck winning an EAJA case). This is not like other commercial activities, where I have exclusive use. If I have a lode mining claim, nobody else is allowed to prospect or metal detect. If I have a quarry or boulder business, nobody can collect at my site. If I have grazing rights, nobody else can run cattle. If I have
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Best wishes to you and all readers, Mark From: Norm Lehrman To: Jim Wooddell ; Meteorite List Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? Jim & all, Commercial users always had to have permits. Permits always took their time. This is not new Rockhounders were always prohibited from commercial endeavors. This is not new. Meteorite hunters were lumped in with rockhounders until now. The only real change that I can see is the change in poundage limits---a major change for sure, but how many of us have had years where the 10 pound limit would've been a problem? It can happen, but quite rarely. I have recovered hundreds of meteorite (fragments) in Nevada, but nowhere near 10 pounds per year. Probably the main point of all this is that we are now under scrutiny and attracting explicit personalized regulation where before we were pretty much under the radar. However, the "new" explicit meteorite regulations are mostly not new, but rather, a formal restatement of long-standing policies governing rockhounding on BLM-managed lands. Norm - Original Message ---- From: Jim Wooddell To: Meteorite List Sent: Mon, October 1, 2012 4:38:39 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? Hello Norm, I beleive that was 25 pounds a day, now 10 pounds a year. Science and Commerical users now require permits. Casual hunters not allowed to sell. Hmmm. Permit processes can take 185 days. I'd say that's significant. Jim On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Count Deiro wrote: > Sorry Norm. Your take on the BLM being some kind of begnign overseer who will >look the other way couldn't be farther from the truth. Just wait till the next >highly publicized fall amd someone admits to picking up something significant >from public land. The BLM will be all over him/her like white on a golf ball. >What! No permit? Didn't know this land was restricted? Gimme that! Here! Take >this citation! > > Guido > > -Original Message- >>From: Norm Lehrman >>Sent: Sep 30, 2012 8:17 PM >>To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >>Subject: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? >> >>All, >> >>I have been following this thread with great confusion, and maybe there IS >>something I don't understand. Meteorite collecting has previously fallen under >>the general rules of rockhounding, and the new changes merely formalize a >>specific policy that is no great change from the past rules. I am quite sure I >>will be hugey chastised for my ignorance. Please correct me if I missed >>something. >> >>The previous rules said 25 pounds and/or one rock. Now it's 10 pounds and no >>provision for the big one with respect to meteorites. How often will that >>actually afect us? Almost never. The use of motorized vehicles off marked >>roads is also a general policy, not just for us. Metal detectors are >explicitly >>allowed. Surely a magnet on a stick is also still fine. >> >>Commercial exploitation of BLM ground is subject to a long standing guideline. >>Find a monster? It is only fair that the land-owner (all Americans) should get >>some benefit. This is no change. If you want to harvest building stones or >>ornamental boulders, you pay a fee. We will too. No real change. >> >>I see no great disaster here. Just a formalization of a specific policy, >thanks >>(?) to our own loud self-promotion in its various forms. Of course they had >to >>get explicit. It is not much more than a clear, specific, restatement of the >>rules we were all subject to before now. Or did no one understand this? Yes, >>they may choose to make their point by prosecuting someone, but I will be >amazed >>if this involves changes in the law. Just enforcement of those already extant. >>At worst with fairly minor changes. >> >>Have at it. I am waiting to be reprimanded for my folly. What am I missing? >> >>Best, >>Norm (http://www.tektitesource.com/) >>__ >> >>Visit the Archives at >http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >>Meteorite-list mailing list >>Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > __ > > Visit the Archives at >http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Jim Wooddell jimwoodd...@gmail.com 928-24
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Jim & all, Commercial users always had to have permits. Permits always took their time. This is not new Rockhounders were always prohibited from commercial endeavors. This is not new. Meteorite hunters were lumped in with rockhounders until now. The only real change that I can see is the change in poundage limits---a major change for sure, but how many of us have had years where the 10 pound limit would've been a problem? It can happen, but quite rarely. I have recovered hundreds of meteorite (fragments) in Nevada, but nowhere near 10 pounds per year. Probably the main point of all this is that we are now under scrutiny and attracting explicit personalized regulation where before we were pretty much under the radar. However, the "new" explicit meteorite regulations are mostly not new, but rather, a formal restatement of long-standing policies governing rockhounding on BLM-managed lands. Norm - Original Message From: Jim Wooddell To: Meteorite List Sent: Mon, October 1, 2012 4:38:39 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? Hello Norm, I beleive that was 25 pounds a day, now 10 pounds a year. Science and Commerical users now require permits. Casual hunters not allowed to sell. Hmmm. Permit processes can take 185 days. I'd say that's significant. Jim On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Count Deiro wrote: > Sorry Norm. Your take on the BLM being some kind of begnign overseer who will >look the other way couldn't be farther from the truth. Just wait till the next >highly publicized fall amd someone admits to picking up something significant >from public land. The BLM will be all over him/her like white on a golf ball. >What! No permit? Didn't know this land was restricted? Gimme that! Here! Take >this citation! > > Guido > > -Original Message- >>From: Norm Lehrman >>Sent: Sep 30, 2012 8:17 PM >>To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >>Subject: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? >> >>All, >> >>I have been following this thread with great confusion, and maybe there IS >>something I don't understand. Meteorite collecting has previously fallen under >>the general rules of rockhounding, and the new changes merely formalize a >>specific policy that is no great change from the past rules. I am quite sure I >>will be hugey chastised for my ignorance. Please correct me if I missed >>something. >> >>The previous rules said 25 pounds and/or one rock. Now it's 10 pounds and no >>provision for the big one with respect to meteorites. How often will that >>actually afect us? Almost never. The use of motorized vehicles off marked >>roads is also a general policy, not just for us. Metal detectors are >explicitly >>allowed. Surely a magnet on a stick is also still fine. >> >>Commercial exploitation of BLM ground is subject to a long standing guideline. >>Find a monster? It is only fair that the land-owner (all Americans) should get >>some benefit. This is no change. If you want to harvest building stones or >>ornamental boulders, you pay a fee. We will too. No real change. >> >>I see no great disaster here. Just a formalization of a specific policy, >thanks >>(?) to our own loud self-promotion in its various forms. Of course they had >to >>get explicit. It is not much more than a clear, specific, restatement of the >>rules we were all subject to before now. Or did no one understand this? Yes, >>they may choose to make their point by prosecuting someone, but I will be >amazed >>if this involves changes in the law. Just enforcement of those already extant. >>At worst with fairly minor changes. >> >>Have at it. I am waiting to be reprimanded for my folly. What am I missing? >> >>Best, >>Norm (www.tektitesource.com) >>__ >> >>Visit the Archives at >http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >>Meteorite-list mailing list >>Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > __ > > Visit the Archives at >http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Jim Wooddell jimwoodd...@gmail.com 928-247-2675 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Hello Norm, I beleive that was 25 pounds a day, now 10 pounds a year. Science and Commerical users now require permits. Casual hunters not allowed to sell. Hmmm. Permit processes can take 185 days. I'd say that's significant. Jim On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Count Deiro wrote: > Sorry Norm. Your take on the BLM being some kind of begnign overseer who will > look the other way couldn't be farther from the truth. Just wait till the > next highly publicized fall amd someone admits to picking up something > significant from public land. The BLM will be all over him/her like white on > a golf ball. What! No permit? Didn't know this land was restricted? Gimme > that! Here! Take this citation! > > Guido > > -Original Message- >>From: Norm Lehrman >>Sent: Sep 30, 2012 8:17 PM >>To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >>Subject: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? >> >>All, >> >>I have been following this thread with great confusion, and maybe there IS >>something I don't understand. Meteorite collecting has previously fallen >>under >>the general rules of rockhounding, and the new changes merely formalize a >>specific policy that is no great change from the past rules. I am quite sure >>I >>will be hugey chastised for my ignorance. Please correct me if I missed >>something. >> >>The previous rules said 25 pounds and/or one rock. Now it's 10 pounds and no >>provision for the big one with respect to meteorites. How often will that >>actually afect us? Almost never. The use of motorized vehicles off marked >>roads is also a general policy, not just for us. Metal detectors are >>explicitly >>allowed. Surely a magnet on a stick is also still fine. >> >>Commercial exploitation of BLM ground is subject to a long standing guideline. >>Find a monster? It is only fair that the land-owner (all Americans) should >>get >>some benefit. This is no change. If you want to harvest building stones or >>ornamental boulders, you pay a fee. We will too. No real change. >> >>I see no great disaster here. Just a formalization of a specific policy, >>thanks >>(?) to our own loud self-promotion in its various forms. Of course they had >>to >>get explicit. It is not much more than a clear, specific, restatement of the >>rules we were all subject to before now. Or did no one understand this? Yes, >>they may choose to make their point by prosecuting someone, but I will be >>amazed >>if this involves changes in the law. Just enforcement of those already >>extant. >>At worst with fairly minor changes. >> >>Have at it. I am waiting to be reprimanded for my folly. What am I missing? >> >>Best, >>Norm (www.tektitesource.com) >>__ >> >>Visit the Archives at >>http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >>Meteorite-list mailing list >>Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > __ > > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Jim Wooddell jimwoodd...@gmail.com 928-247-2675 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Sorry Norm. Your take on the BLM being some kind of begnign overseer who will look the other way couldn't be farther from the truth. Just wait till the next highly publicized fall amd someone admits to picking up something significant from public land. The BLM will be all over him/her like white on a golf ball. What! No permit? Didn't know this land was restricted? Gimme that! Here! Take this citation! Guido -Original Message- >From: Norm Lehrman >Sent: Sep 30, 2012 8:17 PM >To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >Subject: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? > >All, > >I have been following this thread with great confusion, and maybe there IS >something I don't understand. Meteorite collecting has previously fallen >under >the general rules of rockhounding, and the new changes merely formalize a >specific policy that is no great change from the past rules. I am quite sure >I >will be hugey chastised for my ignorance. Please correct me if I missed >something. > >The previous rules said 25 pounds and/or one rock. Now it's 10 pounds and no >provision for the big one with respect to meteorites. How often will that >actually afect us? Almost never. The use of motorized vehicles off marked >roads is also a general policy, not just for us. Metal detectors are >explicitly >allowed. Surely a magnet on a stick is also still fine. > >Commercial exploitation of BLM ground is subject to a long standing >guideline. >Find a monster? It is only fair that the land-owner (all Americans) should >get >some benefit. This is no change. If you want to harvest building stones or >ornamental boulders, you pay a fee. We will too. No real change. > >I see no great disaster here. Just a formalization of a specific policy, >thanks >(?) to our own loud self-promotion in its various forms. Of course they had >to >get explicit. It is not much more than a clear, specific, restatement of the >rules we were all subject to before now. Or did no one understand this? Yes, >they may choose to make their point by prosecuting someone, but I will be >amazed >if this involves changes in the law. Just enforcement of those already >extant. >At worst with fairly minor changes. > >Have at it. I am waiting to be reprimanded for my folly. What am I missing? > >Best, >Norm (www.tektitesource.com) >__ > >Visit the Archives at >http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Guido, Please read it again. All I said is that the new regs make minimal changes on past law. I don't doubt that the BLM will be looking for opportunities to make their point. But the policy states virtually nothing new other than the more restrictive poundage limitation. Everything else restates old policy. Norm - Original Message From: Count Deiro To: Norm Lehrman ; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sun, September 30, 2012 10:17:23 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? Sorry Norm. Your take on the BLM being some kind of begnign overseer who will look the other way couldn't be farther from the truth. Just wait till the next highly publicized fall amd someone admits to picking up something significant from public land. The BLM will be all over him/her like white on a golf ball. What! No permit? Didn't know this land was restricted? Gimme that! Here! Take this citation! Guido -Original Message- >From: Norm Lehrman >Sent: Sep 30, 2012 8:17 PM >To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >Subject: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? > >All, > >I have been following this thread with great confusion, and maybe there IS >something I don't understand. Meteorite collecting has previously fallen >under >the general rules of rockhounding, and the new changes merely formalize a >specific policy that is no great change from the past rules. I am quite sure >I >will be hugey chastised for my ignorance. Please correct me if I missed >something. > >The previous rules said 25 pounds and/or one rock. Now it's 10 pounds and no >provision for the big one with respect to meteorites. How often will that >actually afect us? Almost never. The use of motorized vehicles off marked >roads is also a general policy, not just for us. Metal detectors are >explicitly > >allowed. Surely a magnet on a stick is also still fine. > >Commercial exploitation of BLM ground is subject to a long standing >guideline. >Find a monster? It is only fair that the land-owner (all Americans) should >get >some benefit. This is no change. If you want to harvest building stones or >ornamental boulders, you pay a fee. We will too. No real change. > >I see no great disaster here. Just a formalization of a specific policy, >thanks > >(?) to our own loud self-promotion in its various forms. Of course they had >to > >get explicit. It is not much more than a clear, specific, restatement of the >rules we were all subject to before now. Or did no one understand this? Yes, >they may choose to make their point by prosecuting someone, but I will be >amazed > >if this involves changes in the law. Just enforcement of those already >extant. > >At worst with fairly minor changes. > >Have at it. I am waiting to be reprimanded for my folly. What am I missing? > >Best, >Norm (www.tektitesource.com) >__ > >Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >Meteorite-list mailing list >Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Pat you asked, Pat > > > Are finds made before the 'new' rule exempt of the selling/bartering > requirement? >From what I read on the blm sites in the past and told by one blm officer that >was in effect before this memo was sent. It just that the rules were so vague >that almost all the offices had their own rules this new one spells it out >clear which is in some ways good but they keep tightening the noose. Bryan Couch Wildomar Ca Dare to fail On Sep 30, 2012, at 8:48 PM, Pat Brown wrote: > > Hi Norm and the List, > > Norm, I agree with you that for those of us who are not interested in selling > the > meteorites that we find on BLM land the 'new' rules are not a problem. In > fact the > new rules explicitly grant ownership (with some limits about selling or > bartering) > of the first 9.999 pounds of meteorites to the finder. > > The general rule stating that 'the meteorite belongs to the land owner' could > easily be > interpreted as all meteorites found on all federal lands belong to the US > government. > This 'new' rule says that with some limitations the meteorite belongs to the > finder. > > For the professional hunters who want to profit from their finds, there is a > clear route to > be able to be able to do so. I hate bigger government and more rules in > general. However, > if I were to sell, I would want to know that I could do so without a > governmental claim of > ownership. Yes, there is some paperwork and delay. > > Just my 2 cents worth. > > Best Regards, >Pat > > Are finds made before the 'new' rule exempt of the selling/bartering > requirement? > > ---------------------------- >> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 20:17:21 -0700 >> From: nlehr...@nvbell.net >> To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> Subject: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? >> >> All, >> >> I have been following this thread with great confusion, and maybe there IS >> something I don't understand. Meteorite collecting has previously fallen >> under >> the general rules of rockhounding, and the new changes merely formalize a >> specific policy that is no great change from the past rules. I am quite sure >> I >> will be hugey chastised for my ignorance. Please correct me if I missed >> something. >> >> The previous rules said 25 pounds and/or one rock. Now it's 10 pounds and no >> provision for the big one with respect to meteorites. How often will that >> actually afect us? Almost never. The use of motorized vehicles off marked >> roads is also a general policy, not just for us. Metal detectors are >> explicitly >> allowed. Surely a magnet on a stick is also still fine. >> >> Commercial exploitation of BLM ground is subject to a long standing >> guideline. >> Find a monster? It is only fair that the land-owner (all Americans) should >> get >> some benefit. This is no change. If you want to harvest building stones or >> ornamental boulders, you pay a fee. We will too. No real change. >> >> I see no great disaster here. Just a formalization of a specific policy, >> thanks >> (?) to our own loud self-promotion in its various forms. Of course they had >> to >> get explicit. It is not much more than a clear, specific, restatement of the >> rules we were all subject to before now. Or did no one understand this? Yes, >> they may choose to make their point by prosecuting someone, but I will be >> amazed >> if this involves changes in the law. Just enforcement of those already >> extant. >> At worst with fairly minor changes. >> >> Have at it. I am waiting to be reprimanded for my folly. What am I missing? >> >> Best, >> Norm (www.tektitesource.com) >> __ >> >> Visit the Archives at >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > __ > > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
Hi Norm and the List, Norm, I agree with you that for those of us who are not interested in selling the meteorites that we find on BLM land the 'new' rules are not a problem. In fact the new rules explicitly grant ownership (with some limits about selling or bartering) of the first 9.999 pounds of meteorites to the finder. The general rule stating that 'the meteorite belongs to the land owner' could easily be interpreted as all meteorites found on all federal lands belong to the US government. This 'new' rule says that with some limitations the meteorite belongs to the finder. For the professional hunters who want to profit from their finds, there is a clear route to be able to be able to do so. I hate bigger government and more rules in general. However, if I were to sell, I would want to know that I could do so without a governmental claim of ownership. Yes, there is some paperwork and delay. Just my 2 cents worth. Best Regards, Pat Are finds made before the 'new' rule exempt of the selling/bartering requirement? > Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 20:17:21 -0700 > From: nlehr...@nvbell.net > To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup? > > All, > > I have been following this thread with great confusion, and maybe there IS > something I don't understand. Meteorite collecting has previously fallen under > the general rules of rockhounding, and the new changes merely formalize a > specific policy that is no great change from the past rules. I am quite sure I > will be hugey chastised for my ignorance. Please correct me if I missed > something. > > The previous rules said 25 pounds and/or one rock. Now it's 10 pounds and no > provision for the big one with respect to meteorites. How often will that > actually afect us? Almost never. The use of motorized vehicles off marked > roads is also a general policy, not just for us. Metal detectors are > explicitly > allowed. Surely a magnet on a stick is also still fine. > > Commercial exploitation of BLM ground is subject to a long standing guideline. > Find a monster? It is only fair that the land-owner (all Americans) should get > some benefit. This is no change. If you want to harvest building stones or > ornamental boulders, you pay a fee. We will too. No real change. > > I see no great disaster here. Just a formalization of a specific policy, > thanks > (?) to our own loud self-promotion in its various forms. Of course they had to > get explicit. It is not much more than a clear, specific, restatement of the > rules we were all subject to before now. Or did no one understand this? Yes, > they may choose to make their point by prosecuting someone, but I will be > amazed > if this involves changes in the law. Just enforcement of those already extant. > At worst with fairly minor changes. > > Have at it. I am waiting to be reprimanded for my folly. What am I missing? > > Best, > Norm (www.tektitesource.com) > __ > > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] New BLM regs: Tempest in a teacup?
All, I have been following this thread with great confusion, and maybe there IS something I don't understand. Meteorite collecting has previously fallen under the general rules of rockhounding, and the new changes merely formalize a specific policy that is no great change from the past rules. I am quite sure I will be hugey chastised for my ignorance. Please correct me if I missed something. The previous rules said 25 pounds and/or one rock. Now it's 10 pounds and no provision for the big one with respect to meteorites. How often will that actually afect us? Almost never. The use of motorized vehicles off marked roads is also a general policy, not just for us. Metal detectors are explicitly allowed. Surely a magnet on a stick is also still fine. Commercial exploitation of BLM ground is subject to a long standing guideline. Find a monster? It is only fair that the land-owner (all Americans) should get some benefit. This is no change. If you want to harvest building stones or ornamental boulders, you pay a fee. We will too. No real change. I see no great disaster here. Just a formalization of a specific policy, thanks (?) to our own loud self-promotion in its various forms. Of course they had to get explicit. It is not much more than a clear, specific, restatement of the rules we were all subject to before now. Or did no one understand this? Yes, they may choose to make their point by prosecuting someone, but I will be amazed if this involves changes in the law. Just enforcement of those already extant. At worst with fairly minor changes. Have at it. I am waiting to be reprimanded for my folly. What am I missing? Best, Norm (www.tektitesource.com) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
