Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene
Hi Eric, I can't find anything rude in my post, neither I intended to mock you. I used the raindrop analogy for three reasons. Your idea was, that two meteorites hit ground in almost the same place in a period of 11 years and they are of the same petrologic type. These coincidences seem so strong, that one tends to say, that those were no independent events. It's about unlikelinesses. So. If someone tells you. I'll climb to an altitude of some 1000 feet with a pipette. And there I let fall two single drops. And the drops will splash on exactly the same spot on the ground - then one would tend to say: That's impossible! Secondly I chose the raindrop analogy, because it takes place in the atmosphere. If your idea would be right, then Earth and the second meteorite have to meet geometrically exactly in the same place in space (and space is somewhat large and Earth and meteorid really small) like with the first meteorite, a question of fractions of seconds, as we talk about speeds of many miles per second, and also little Weatherfield or the point of the entry in the atmosphere has to be seen the rotation of the Earth around its axes, just in the same place. Well and there I say, we don't need to think even about orbits of Earth, debris streams, resonances ect. Why? Because alone the factors which influence the atmospheric passage of these both meteorids cause such a scatter, that even if both meteorids entered atmosphere at the very same point, in the very right moment, with the same angle and speed, that they will not fall down so closely to each other. Because the bodies have different flight dynamics, depending on their mass and shape. Air pressures and wind is a factor. The height of a break up, the point of retardation, when it's slowed down and the free fall starts. These are all factors already sufficient, to make it highly unlikely that these two falls belong together. Maybe also for a third reason I used the raindrops, this time in an opposite way. The raindrop hits the other only because there are so many drops falling. I think, or at least I haven't the imagination of an asteroid family or Earth-crosser stream being dense. And I think one can't compare such a stream with e.g. the cometary dust streams, which causes the periodical meteor streams, when Earth crosses them on its annual path around the Earth. ...and even those aren't fairly dense, if you remember, that the best annual meteor streams generate only a few dozens of shooting stars per hour for the observer at their maxima. Also the asteroid belt is btw. quite empty - at least emptier as it is usually shown in the animations on TV, where large lumps are floating through space like a flock of sheep. If you imagine, that on such a huge volume of space, the asteroid belt comprises, a total mass of only 5% of our Moon - (and that half of that mass is contained already in the four largest objects of the asteroid belt. Ceres, Vesta, Pallas, Hygiea) - then I'd say, that even the asteroid belt is quite a void space. Well, and as Captain Blood said - it isn't uncommon, that in a relatively small place different meteorites are found. - all these Name + (a), (b), (c), (d)... designations in the Bulletin. Or think about the places, where Sonny and the Count are hunting meteorites to cause hefty depressions among the other meteorite collectors :-) Or take the DaG-Meteorites and Oman, because they have coordinates. In what for small areas thousands of different original falls were found. Those deserts record a longer fall history; up to 50,000 years is the range of the terrestrial ages there - still a very short period of time, if you remember, that such a meteorite from the day it had been whacked off from his parent body, usually floats several million years around the sun, until it will be caught by Earth. Anyway, there are also other coincidences than geographical ones. Thuathe and Kilabo felt both o 21th of July 2002. (One is H4/5 the other an LL6). And Pribram and Neuschwanstein shared the same orbit. But one is a H5, the other a EL6. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Montag, 8. März 2010 03:04 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene I was going to stay closed mouth since I opened it a few hours ago and got my theory handed back to me very matter-of-factly. However, a rain drop is hardly a meteorite and does not orbit the Sun, unless of course it somehow miraculously escapes the Earth's gravitational field. But then it would freeze in deep space and would no longer be considered rain now would it? I believe frozen water is called ice if I'm correct. but then again wouldn't it melt once it got closer to the sun? I could be wrong here so please point out if I
Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene ANSWER e
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 00:51:38 -0600, you wrote: Humans are better at seeing patterns in the world around them than any other organism on the planet. Frequently, we are too good at it, as when we discover the Face of God in the burnt wrinkles of a tortilla, or accept too much circumstantial evidence of the unlikely. Randomness is clumpy. Take a look at the two illustrations starting with the postscript on this link: http://books.google.com/books?id=etKX2s6JgAkClpg=PA268ots=RavEHOl0OHdq=stephen%20jay%20gould%20randomness%20patternpg=PA265#v=onepageq=f=false __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene
On a lighter side. It seems different ages may be related. Just a guess here. http://www.wimp.com/babymoose/ -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote: Hi Eric, I can't find anything rude in my post, neither I intended to mock you. I used the raindrop analogy for three reasons. Your idea was, that two meteorites hit ground in almost the same place in a period of 11 years and they are of the same petrologic type. These coincidences seem so strong, that one tends to say, that those were no independent events. It's about unlikelinesses. So. If someone tells you. I'll climb to an altitude of some 1000 feet with a pipette. And there I let fall two single drops. And the drops will splash on exactly the same spot on the ground - then one would tend to say: That's impossible! Secondly I chose the raindrop analogy, because it takes place in the atmosphere. If your idea would be right, then Earth and the second meteorite have to meet geometrically exactly in the same place in space (and space is somewhat large and Earth and meteorid really small) like with the first meteorite, a question of fractions of seconds, as we talk about speeds of many miles per second, and also little Weatherfield or the point of the entry in the atmosphere has to be seen the rotation of the Earth around its axes, just in the same place. Well and there I say, we don't need to think even about orbits of Earth, debris streams, resonances ect. Why? Because alone the factors which influence the atmospheric passage of these both meteorids cause such a scatter, that even if both meteorids entered atmosphere at the very same point, in the very right moment, with the same angle and speed, that they will not fall down so closely to each other. Because the bodies have different flight dynamics, depending on their mass and shape. Air pressures and wind is a factor. The height of a break up, the point of retardation, when it's slowed down and the free fall starts. These are all factors already sufficient, to make it highly unlikely that these two falls belong together. Maybe also for a third reason I used the raindrops, this time in an opposite way. The raindrop hits the other only because there are so many drops falling. I think, or at least I haven't the imagination of an asteroid family or Earth-crosser stream being dense. And I think one can't compare such a stream with e.g. the cometary dust streams, which causes the periodical meteor streams, when Earth crosses them on its annual path around the Earth. ...and even those aren't fairly dense, if you remember, that the best annual meteor streams generate only a few dozens of shooting stars per hour for the observer at their maxima. Also the asteroid belt is btw. quite empty - at least emptier as it is usually shown in the animations on TV, where large lumps are floating through space like a flock of sheep. If you imagine, that on such a huge volume of space, the asteroid belt comprises, a total mass of only 5% of our Moon - (and that half of that mass is contained already in the four largest objects of the asteroid belt. Ceres, Vesta, Pallas, Hygiea) - then I'd say, that even the asteroid belt is quite a void space. Well, and as Captain Blood said - it isn't uncommon, that in a relatively small place different meteorites are found. - all these Name + (a), (b), (c), (d)... designations in the Bulletin. Or think about the places, where Sonny and the Count are hunting meteorites to cause hefty depressions among the other meteorite collectors :-) Or take the DaG-Meteorites and Oman, because they have coordinates. In what for small areas thousands of different original falls were found. Those deserts record a longer fall history; up to 50,000 years is the range of the terrestrial ages there - still a very short period of time, if you remember, that such a meteorite from the day it had been whacked off from his parent body, usually floats several million years around the sun, until it will be caught by Earth. Anyway, there are also other coincidences than geographical ones. Thuathe and Kilabo felt both o 21th of July 2002. (One is H4/5 the other an LL6). And Pribram and Neuschwanstein shared the same orbit. But one is a H5, the other a EL6. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Montag, 8. März 2010 03:04 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene I was going to stay closed mouth since I opened it a few hours ago and got my theory handed back to me very matter-of-factly. However, a rain drop is hardly a meteorite and does not orbit the Sun, unless of course it somehow
Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene ANSWER e
Randomness is clumpy. Good summary! People tend to believe in quite different and smoother statistical behaviour. Then again it all depends on the different scales involved in the end... Alex Berlin/Germany __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene ANSWER e
On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:16:15 +0100, you wrote: Randomness is clumpy. Good summary! People tend to believe in quite different and smoother statistical behaviour. Then again it all depends on the different scales involved in the end... There is an old joke where a man is driving past a farm and sees the barn is painted with bulls-eyes, each with a tight cluster of bullet-holes in the middle. Curious, he goes to the farmer and asks him What's your secret for being such a great shot? The farmer replies Shoot first, then draw the targets __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene
I know it was slightly off topic...but beautiful video...what a great encounter. Thanks for sharing, Graham E cdtuc...@cox.net wrote: On a lighter side. It seems different ages may be related. Just a guess here. http://www.wimp.com/babymoose/ -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote: Hi Eric, I can't find anything rude in my post, neither I intended to mock you. I used the raindrop analogy for three reasons. Your idea was, that two meteorites hit ground in almost the same place in a period of 11 years and they are of the same petrologic type. These coincidences seem so strong, that one tends to say, that those were no independent events. It's about unlikelinesses. So. If someone tells you. I'll climb to an altitude of some 1000 feet with a pipette. And there I let fall two single drops. And the drops will splash on exactly the same spot on the ground - then one would tend to say: That's impossible! Secondly I chose the raindrop analogy, because it takes place in the atmosphere. If your idea would be right, then Earth and the second meteorite have to meet geometrically exactly in the same place in space (and space is somewhat large and Earth and meteorid really small) like with the first meteorite, a question of fractions of seconds, as we talk about speeds of many miles per second, and also little Weatherfield or the point of the entry in the atmosphere has to be seen the rotation of the Earth around its axes, just in the same place. Well and there I say, we don't need to think even about orbits of Earth, debris streams, resonances ect. Why? Because alone the factors which influence the atmospheric passage of these both meteorids cause such a scatter, that even if both meteorids entered atmosphere at the very same point, in the very right moment, with the same angle and speed, that they will not fall down so closely to each other. Because the bodies have different flight dynamics, depending on their mass and shape. Air pressures and wind is a factor. The height of a break up, the point of retardation, when it's slowed down and the free fall starts. These are all factors already sufficient, to make it highly unlikely that these two falls belong together. Maybe also for a third reason I used the raindrops, this time in an opposite way. The raindrop hits the other only because there are so many drops falling. I think, or at least I haven't the imagination of an asteroid family or Earth-crosser stream being dense. And I think one can't compare such a stream with e.g. the cometary dust streams, which causes the periodical meteor streams, when Earth crosses them on its annual path around the Earth. ...and even those aren't fairly dense, if you remember, that the best annual meteor streams generate only a few dozens of shooting stars per hour for the observer at their maxima. Also the asteroid belt is btw. quite empty - at least emptier as it is usually shown in the animations on TV, where large lumps are floating through space like a flock of sheep. If you imagine, that on such a huge volume of space, the asteroid belt comprises, a total mass of only 5% of our Moon - (and that half of that mass is contained already in the four largest objects of the asteroid belt. Ceres, Vesta, Pallas, Hygiea) - then I'd say, that even the asteroid belt is quite a void space. Well, and as Captain Blood said - it isn't uncommon, that in a relatively small place different meteorites are found. - all these Name + (a), (b), (c), (d)... designations in the Bulletin. Or think about the places, where Sonny and the Count are hunting meteorites to cause hefty depressions among the other meteorite collectors :-) Or take the DaG-Meteorites and Oman, because they have coordinates. In what for small areas thousands of different original falls were found. Those deserts record a longer fall history; up to 50,000 years is the range of the terrestrial ages there - still a very short period of time, if you remember, that such a meteorite from the day it had been whacked off from his parent body, usually floats several million years around the sun, until it will be caught by Earth. Anyway, there are also other coincidences than geographical ones. Thuathe and Kilabo felt both o 21th of July 2002. (One is H4/5 the other an LL6). And Pribram and Neuschwanstein shared the same orbit. But one is a H5, the other a EL6. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Montag, 8. März 2010 03:04 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene I was going to stay closed mouth since I opened it a few hours ago and got my theory handed
Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene
I know it was slightly off topic...but beautiful video...what a great encounter. Thanks for sharing, Graham E cdtuc...@cox.net wrote: On a lighter side. It seems different ages may be related. Just a guess here. http://www.wimp.com/babymoose/ -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote: Hi Eric, I can't find anything rude in my post, neither I intended to mock you. I used the raindrop analogy for three reasons. Your idea was, that two meteorites hit ground in almost the same place in a period of 11 years and they are of the same petrologic type. These coincidences seem so strong, that one tends to say, that those were no independent events. It's about unlikelinesses. So. If someone tells you. I'll climb to an altitude of some 1000 feet with a pipette. And there I let fall two single drops. And the drops will splash on exactly the same spot on the ground - then one would tend to say: That's impossible! Secondly I chose the raindrop analogy, because it takes place in the atmosphere. If your idea would be right, then Earth and the second meteorite have to meet geometrically exactly in the same place in space (and space is somewhat large and Earth and meteorid really small) like with the first meteorite, a question of fractions of seconds, as we talk about speeds of many miles per second, and also little Weatherfield or the point of the entry in the atmosphere has to be seen the rotation of the Earth around its axes, just in the same place. Well and there I say, we don't need to think even about orbits of Earth, debris streams, resonances ect. Why? Because alone the factors which influence the atmospheric passage of these both meteorids cause such a scatter, that even if both meteorids entered atmosphere at the very same point, in the very right moment, with the same angle and speed, that they will not fall down so closely to each other. Because the bodies have different flight dynamics, depending on their mass and shape. Air pressures and wind is a factor. The height of a break up, the point of retardation, when it's slowed down and the free fall starts. These are all factors already sufficient, to make it highly unlikely that these two falls belong together. Maybe also for a third reason I used the raindrops, this time in an opposite way. The raindrop hits the other only because there are so many drops falling. I think, or at least I haven't the imagination of an asteroid family or Earth-crosser stream being dense. And I think one can't compare such a stream with e.g. the cometary dust streams, which causes the periodical meteor streams, when Earth crosses them on its annual path around the Earth. ...and even those aren't fairly dense, if you remember, that the best annual meteor streams generate only a few dozens of shooting stars per hour for the observer at their maxima. Also the asteroid belt is btw. quite empty - at least emptier as it is usually shown in the animations on TV, where large lumps are floating through space like a flock of sheep. If you imagine, that on such a huge volume of space, the asteroid belt comprises, a total mass of only 5% of our Moon - (and that half of that mass is contained already in the four largest objects of the asteroid belt. Ceres, Vesta, Pallas, Hygiea) - then I'd say, that even the asteroid belt is quite a void space. Well, and as Captain Blood said - it isn't uncommon, that in a relatively small place different meteorites are found. - all these Name + (a), (b), (c), (d)... designations in the Bulletin. Or think about the places, where Sonny and the Count are hunting meteorites to cause hefty depressions among the other meteorite collectors :-) Or take the DaG-Meteorites and Oman, because they have coordinates. In what for small areas thousands of different original falls were found. Those deserts record a longer fall history; up to 50,000 years is the range of the terrestrial ages there - still a very short period of time, if you remember, that such a meteorite from the day it had been whacked off from his parent body, usually floats several million years around the sun, until it will be caught by Earth. Anyway, there are also other coincidences than geographical ones. Thuathe and Kilabo felt both o 21th of July 2002. (One is H4/5 the other an LL6). And Pribram and Neuschwanstein shared the same orbit. But one is a H5, the other a EL6. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Meteorites USA Gesendet: Montag, 8. März 2010 03:04 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene I was going to stay closed mouth since I opened it a few hours ago and got my theory handed
Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene
Yah, and the Earth is rotating. Eric, calculate how far seen from a fix point from space that little town is moving on his latitude circle in a few seconds only... Shht Eric, you have a spot in your garden, of only 1/3 inch diameter. An incredible spot. Because there it happened, that two projectiles of a diameter of only a few mm, falling from an altitude of thousands of feet, hit each other in exactly the same spot on the ground! And that happens several times a year! Check it out. It's called rain and whenever it rains, you will see that the spot is wet... Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Rob Matson Gesendet: Montag, 8. März 2010 01:48 An: Meteorites USA Cc: Meteorite List Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene Hi Eric, Statistically it seems very possible they are related and from the same parent body. In fact the probability of them NOT being related seems remote as it doesn't make sense not to consider the likelihood of a pairing relationship. The only factor about the two Wethersfield falls that suggests a pairing is the L6 classification they share. However, since L6 is one of the most common meteorite classifications, it's hardly compelling evidence for a common immediate precursor body (IPB). Has anyone looked at Google Earth and zoomed out to see how small a spot that actually is? That's like shooting a speeding bullet out of the air with another. The Earth is rotating ~365 times per year, x 11 years that's 4015 rotations of the earth and 11 complete orbits around the Sun. Two small rocks of the same exact type floated around the solar system for millions/billions of years, and crash land within 1.4 miles of each other only 11 years apart and they are not related? Let me counter your theory with one question: Why should a meteorite stream have orbital characteristics that are synchronous with earth's day, or more specifically earth's geography? Think about it: there is no dynamical mechanism to produce such synchronicity. It is far more likely that truly paired meteorites falling in different years would do so in completely different parts of the world. Given the miniscule fraction of falls that are successfully recovered each year, the odds are very long that two falls -- in different years -- will ever be recovered that provably came from the same IPB. --Rob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene
I was going to stay closed mouth since I opened it a few hours ago and got my theory handed back to me very matter-of-factly. However, a rain drop is hardly a meteorite and does not orbit the Sun, unless of course it somehow miraculously escapes the Earth's gravitational field. But then it would freeze in deep space and would no longer be considered rain now would it? I believe frozen water is called ice if I'm correct. but then again wouldn't it melt once it got closer to the sun? I could be wrong here so please point out if I am... I'm sure you will. All the BS aside, I would venture a guess that if someone found two meteorites of the same class 1.4 miles away from one another as cold finds they would assume the area would be a strewnfield until proven otherwise. This without of course taking into account any dating of the stones. Didn't I read a while back about asteroid-quakes? As asteroids near the Earth newer material is brought to the surface. In other words, would an asteroid's surface act as a shield against the cosmic rays to the interior of the asteroid? Would this affect anything at all? Is ALL material in any given asteroid the same age, or is this age determined by the cosmic radiation levels within any given part? Does this take into account other older and younger bodies impacting a parent body and becoming part of that body? Is accretion real or a figment of scientific world's imagination? Am I asking too many questions? ;) I'm being facetious of course. Now, I'm assuming a lot of things here, and call me an ass if you like, but at least I didn't sound like an ass by slamming someone else on-list and insulting them by explaining what rain is. As far as I know a meteorite is made of stone or iron, or a mixture of both and it comes from an asteroid, and these asteroids come from space and all have orbits unless those orbits are perturbed by a larger body, like which I have been apparently. Regards, Eric On 3/7/2010 5:24 PM, Martin Altmann wrote: Yah, and the Earth is rotating. Eric, calculate how far seen from a fix point from space that little town is moving on his latitude circle in a few seconds only... Shht Eric, you have a spot in your garden, of only 1/3 inch diameter. An incredible spot. Because there it happened, that two projectiles of a diameter of only a few mm, falling from an altitude of thousands of feet, hit each other in exactly the same spot on the ground! And that happens several times a year! Check it out. It's called rain and whenever it rains, you will see that the spot is wet... Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Rob Matson Gesendet: Montag, 8. März 2010 01:48 An: Meteorites USA Cc: Meteorite List Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene Hi Eric, Statistically it seems very possible they are related and from the same parent body. In fact the probability of them NOT being related seems remote as it doesn't make sense not to consider the likelihood of a pairing relationship. The only factor about the two Wethersfield falls that suggests a pairing is the L6 classification they share. However, since L6 is one of the most common meteorite classifications, it's hardly compelling evidence for a common immediate precursor body (IPB). Has anyone looked at Google Earth and zoomed out to see how small a spot that actually is? That's like shooting a speeding bullet out of the air with another. The Earth is rotating ~365 times per year, x 11 years that's 4015 rotations of the earth and 11 complete orbits around the Sun. Two small rocks of the same exact type floated around the solar system for millions/billions of years, and crash land within 1.4 miles of each other only 11 years apart and they are not related? Let me counter your theory with one question: Why should a meteorite stream have orbital characteristics that are synchronous with earth's day, or more specifically earth's geography? Think about it: there is no dynamical mechanism to produce such synchronicity. It is far more likely that truly paired meteorites falling in different years would do so in completely different parts of the world. Given the miniscule fraction of falls that are successfully recovered each year, the odds are very long that two falls -- in different years -- will ever be recovered that provably came from the same IPB. --Rob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list
Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene
Matson Gesendet: Montag, 8. März 2010 01:48 An: Meteorites USA Cc: Meteorite List Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene Hi Eric, Statistically it seems very possible they are related and from the same parent body. In fact the probability of them NOT being related seems remote as it doesn't make sense not to consider the likelihood of a pairing relationship. The only factor about the two Wethersfield falls that suggests a pairing is the L6 classification they share. However, since L6 is one of the most common meteorite classifications, it's hardly compelling evidence for a common immediate precursor body (IPB). Has anyone looked at Google Earth and zoomed out to see how small a spot that actually is? That's like shooting a speeding bullet out of the air with another. The Earth is rotating ~365 times per year, x 11 years that's 4015 rotations of the earth and 11 complete orbits around the Sun. Two small rocks of the same exact type floated around the solar system for millions/billions of years, and crash land within 1.4 miles of each other only 11 years apart and they are not related? Let me counter your theory with one question: Why should a meteorite stream have orbital characteristics that are synchronous with earth's day, or more specifically earth's geography? Think about it: there is no dynamical mechanism to produce such synchronicity. It is far more likely that truly paired meteorites falling in different years would do so in completely different parts of the world. Given the miniscule fraction of falls that are successfully recovered each year, the odds are very long that two falls -- in different years -- will ever be recovered that provably came from the same IPB. --Rob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene
...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: I was going to stay closed mouth since I opened it a few hours ago and got my theory handed back to me very matter-of-factly. However, a rain drop is hardly a meteorite and does not orbit the Sun, unless of course it somehow miraculously escapes the Earth's gravitational field. But then it would freeze in deep space and would no longer be considered rain now would it? I believe frozen water is called ice if I'm correct. but then again wouldn't it melt once it got closer to the sun? I could be wrong here so please point out if I am... I'm sure you will. All the BS aside, I would venture a guess that if someone found two meteorites of the same class 1.4 miles away from one another as cold finds they would assume the area would be a strewnfield until proven otherwise. This without of course taking into account any dating of the stones. Didn't I read a while back about asteroid-quakes? As asteroids near the Earth newer material is brought to the surface. In other words, would an asteroid's surface act as a shield against the cosmic rays to the interior of the asteroid? Would this affect anything at all? Is ALL material in any given asteroid the same age, or is this age determined by the cosmic radiation levels within any given part? Does this take into account other older and younger bodies impacting a parent body and becoming part of that body? Is accretion real or a figment of scientific world's imagination? Am I asking too many questions? ;) I'm being facetious of course. Now, I'm assuming a lot of things here, and call me an ass if you like, but at least I didn't sound like an ass by slamming someone else on-list and insulting them by explaining what rain is. As far as I know a meteorite is made of stone or iron, or a mixture of both and it comes from an asteroid, and these asteroids come from space and all have orbits unless those orbits are perturbed by a larger body, like which I have been apparently. Regards, Eric On 3/7/2010 5:24 PM, Martin Altmann wrote: Yah, and the Earth is rotating. Eric, calculate how far seen from a fix point from space that little town is moving on his latitude circle in a few seconds only... Shht Eric, you have a spot in your garden, of only 1/3 inch diameter. An incredible spot. Because there it happened, that two projectiles of a diameter of only a few mm, falling from an altitude of thousands of feet, hit each other in exactly the same spot on the ground! And that happens several times a year! Check it out. It's called rain and whenever it rains, you will see that the spot is wet... Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Rob Matson Gesendet: Montag, 8. März 2010 01:48 An: Meteorites USA Cc: Meteorite List Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene Hi Eric, Statistically it seems very possible they are related and from the same parent body. In fact the probability of them NOT being related seems remote as it doesn't make sense not to consider the likelihood of a pairing relationship. The only factor about the two Wethersfield falls that suggests a pairing is the L6 classification they share. However, since L6 is one of the most common meteorite classifications, it's hardly compelling evidence for a common immediate precursor body (IPB). Has anyone looked at Google Earth and zoomed out to see how small a spot that actually is? That's like shooting a speeding bullet out of the air with another. The Earth is rotating ~365 times per year, x 11 years that's 4015 rotations of the earth and 11 complete orbits around the Sun. Two small rocks of the same exact type floated around the solar system for millions/billions of years, and crash land within 1.4 miles of each other only 11 years apart and they are not related? Let me counter your theory with one question: Why should a meteorite stream have orbital characteristics that are synchronous with earth's day, or more specifically earth's geography? Think about it: there is no dynamical mechanism to produce such synchronicity. It is far more likely that truly paired meteorites falling in different years would do so in completely different parts of the world. Given the miniscule fraction of falls that are successfully recovered each year, the odds are very long that two falls -- in different years -- will ever be recovered that provably came from the same IPB. --Rob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing
Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene
--- On Sun, 3/7/10, Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: Even so, asteroids are predictable. Very predictable in fact... One could be traveling slightly faster than the other but in the exact same elliptical orbit around the Sun. One piece could impact Earth while the other, being further behind misses, and doesn't cross the same space at the same time as Earth for another 11 years. Yes Eric, all this is possible, but VERY unlikely... One very important thing you left out of your original question was not the locations of the classifications, but the dates Wethersfield (1971) fell on April 8th Wethersfield (1982) fell on November 8th 7 (or 5) months apart... Since the Earth was essentially on the other side of the Sun at the time of each fall, that pretty much eliminates any chance the two objects were in the same orbit. -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene ANSWER e
Hi, Shawn, Eric, and all the posters, Living beings evolve to become increasingly sensitive to meaningful patterns. Failure to recognize a pattern of danger can have a high, even fatal, penalty, whereas seeing danger where there is none has only a slight penalty in waste energy and stress. Humans are better at seeing patterns in the world around them than any other organism on the planet. Frequently, we are too good at it, as when we discover the Face of God in the burnt wrinkles of a tortilla, or accept too much circumstantial evidence of the unlikely. Whether one thinks the Wethersfield falls are truly coincidental or not, you notice that the question was thought to be worth answering; we examined them petrologically to find out. And, just to make matters worse, in addition to the two Wethersfield L6's in 1971 and 1982, there's the Stratford, CT L6 in 1974, only 48 miles away from Wethersfield... In addition to 2 meteorites in a two-mile circle in 11 years, it's 3 meteorites in a 50-mile circle in 11 years. Martin compares the coincidence of the 11-year falls of two meteorites within 1.4 miles of each other to the fall of rain drops on the same wet spot. What is the difference between meteorite fall and raindrop fall? Their frequency. Many more raindrops fall than do meteorites, so many more raindrops that the fact that two raindrops fall on the same spot is unremarkable, but the fall of two meteorites near each other in short order is not. The true significance of rare events like the two falls in Wethersfield is as a potential indicator of the overall fall rate of meteorites. There is even a kind of mathematical analysis that deals with the frequencies of rare events: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisson_distribution Unfortunately, it can't be applied with only one sample event like Wethersfield coincidence. This is because we don't know if the Wethersfield's were a 1-in-a-hundred coincidence or a 1-in-a-million coincidence, or as the man in the street says, What are the odds? Is it a pattern, or an accident? Personally, since I don't like to believe in highly unlikely events, I see Wethersfield as an indicator of a higher fall rate, but those who really don't like high fall rates will see Wethersfield as a rarer coincidence than I do because they're more comfortable with rare events than increased normal levels of risk. It all boils down to your personal taste in universes... Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com To: e...@meteoritesusa.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 5:26 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene ANSWER e Hi Eric and Listers, Eric you had said... Two small rocks of the same exact type floated around the solar system for millions/billions of years, and crash land within 1.4 miles of each other only 11 years apart and they are not related? So basically it's a coincidence? ;) Now when you say coincidence your inferring its not a coincidence and the two falls happened for some other reason, like the act of god, or the solar system is trying to tell us something? Meteorites fall alot, its been happening over 4 billion years. Chondrites are the most common meteorite, so it would make since that the probability of two meteorites of the same type and class could happen. But again with probability anything can happen. Tomorrow another meteorite could hit in Wethersfield again and could be a Chondrite. Whats in question is the odds of it happening again. A few months ago Lorton had a visitor and it was a Chondrite and it also had hit a building and landed on the floor in a doctors office. Now for the Wethersfield 1971 and 1982 falls were independent of each other which would make them 2 separate falls canceling out the pairing hypotheses. As for the two meteorites coming from the same parent body, I would have to say no because the petrographic is different between the two. In addition, the cosmic ray exposure age is 3MY for the 1971 fall and 50 MY from the 1982 fall, inferring that the two falls came from different parent bodies. Here is a link to a pdf that explains this in better detail. http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1987Metic..22..358Camp;data_type=PDF_HIGHamp;whole_paper=YESamp;type=PRINTERamp;filetype=.pdf Now I have a question for everyone, I wonder which fall is worth more money. If it wasn't for the second fall, this would have never happened. But again if it wasn't for the first it wouldnt have happen either. But what I can say is that the first fall in 1971 is 7 times smaller then the fall in 1982. Shawn Alan [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart? Both Hammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene Meteorites USA eric at meteoritesusa.com Sun Mar 7
