Re: RMS vs TdR (WAS: Re: OLPC)
Shane J Pearson wrote: You find a lot of things obvious for a guy who is so presumptuous. For the record, I respect the intentions of RMS and I highly respect the intentions and practical thinking of Theo, the OpenBSD project, the developers and much of the user base. I've been enjoying OpenBSD since 2.5 and I try to buy OpenBSD items and donate whenever I am financially able. I tried to donate brand new SCSI disks when Theo asked for them for the older machines and I purchased a brand new SCSI card for an Aussie developer and had it sent to him, while I was mostly unemployed with small funds. My intentions are honourable here. I messed up by touching something that could be controversial. But really, I was pro OpenBSD in an OpenBSD list. So shoot me. If you are referring to me (which I think is a safe assumption based on your quoting), then you've read way too much into *my* opinion. I'll be careful in the future to try to avoid accidentally becoming the catalyst to the few overly sensitive folks here. Hmm. Let's see. Jack's original post is listed in its entirety below. I do not see any quotes around the word interesting. If you read it then you may agree that his meaning is obvious, you may not. However, it was followed up by three posters, one of which was you responding to further messages downstream from the original post, where two of the posts make comments which could be considered disparaging, and which could also reasonably be seen as leading towards a greater debate over the merits of the celebrities behind two groups of software licencing thinking. I've seen that more than once on this list and it goes nowhere, and yes, I am sensitive about it because I have never seen a single positive thing come from it.. It is merely a waste of bandwidth and the time of list readers. So yes, I posted an abrasive message to the list in an attempt to curb such discussion from taking place again. Around here, ego bruising tends to get better results than asking nicely. Anyone who sticks around after having made several posts to misc@ is probably someone who is genuinely interested in OpenBSD. :) I would never accuse a poster otherwise unless they were being absolutely crystal clear that they don't support OpenBSD. Where your particular misunderstanding seems to come into play is where you see Jack reference his earlier message, the one posted below, by quoting the word interesting. He was not implying anything. You either missed part of the thread or were fishing for an argument. It seems more likely that you missed part of the thread considering you take sole ownership of my previous negative comments. I would merely offer that you re-read the entire thread and consider that you may have not been the focus of my attention. Jumping into the middle of a thread without understanding the entire context is a recipe for disaster. In any case, you have made your intentions clear. Whether I was referencing you, another poster, all of you, or anyone who was thinking about joining into the thread and fanning the flames, well, I will leave that as an exercise for the reader, should any such reader care to waste any more time on this topic :) Breeno PS - I would avoid bringing up donations as a way of indicating that you are supporting the project. If you dig back in the lists you will find a post I made to another list, ports@ maybe, asking a question with the request that replies be sent to my email as well as the list, as I was not subscribed to that list. I got slammed for not supporting the project by participating in the list. I replied that I participate in misc@ instead because I can actually be useful there (sometimes) and that I donate to the project. I was then accused by several parties of attempting to buy help by bringing up my donations, when I was merely trying to indicate that I *DO* support the project in the ways available to me, as you did above. Just a friendly warning from someone who has already been burnt. It really is amazing just how much drama there are on these lists considering their intended purpose. List: openbsd-misc Subject:Re: OLPC From: Jack J. Woehr jwoehr () absolute-performance ! com Date: 2006-10-10 16:21:45 Message-ID: 1415ECD7-F7E8-4127-8DF3-A04EF94E7F61 () absolute-performance ! com [Download message RAW] On Oct 10, 2006, at 9:38 AM, Theo de Raadt wrote: Some of you may have been following the OLPC discussion. Here is one place you can read more about it: http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/286/ The differences of opinion between Theo and RMS are at least as interesting as the differences between either one and OLPC / the chip vendors! -- Jack J. Woehr Director of Development Absolute Performance, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303-443-7000 ext. 527
Re: RMS vs TdR (WAS: Re: OLPC)
So... RMS vs. TdR in a hot jello grudge match... who comes out on top? Sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself. For the most part, this whole thread seems just that silly.
Re: RMS vs TdR (WAS: Re: OLPC)
Breen, On 13/10/2006, at 1:20 AM, Breen Ouellette wrote: Hmm. Let's see. Jack's original post is listed in its entirety below. I do not see any quotes around the word interesting. If you read it then you may agree that his meaning is obvious, you may not. I replied to this... http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-miscm=116050963816462w=2 So yes, I posted an abrasive message to the list in an attempt to curb such discussion from taking place again. You posted an abrasive message to prevent a flame war? Nice work. Where your particular misunderstanding seems to come into play is where you see Jack reference his earlier message, the one posted below, by quoting the word interesting. He was not implying anything. He can speak for himself, which is why I asked him. He said 'interesting' a few times, so I was intrigued by that. Even Bob Beck asked 'How so?...'. You either missed part of the thread or were fishing for an argument. Actually, you missed part of the thread. The part I was actually replying to. PS - I would avoid bringing up donations as a way of indicating that you are supporting the project. If you dig back in the lists you will find a post I made to another list, ports@ maybe, asking a question with the request that replies be sent to my email as well as the list, as I was not subscribed to that list. I got slammed for not supporting the project by participating in the list. I replied that I participate in misc@ instead because I can actually be useful there (sometimes) and that I donate to the project. I was then accused by several parties of attempting to buy help by bringing up my donations, when I was merely trying to indicate that I *DO* support the project in the ways available to me, as you did above. Two different situations. I am obviously not trying to buy support. I was merely trying to make my honest intentions known. When I make a donation, it is for real. I don't want or expect anything in return for it. That's why it is a donation. Mentioning that I have donated was just to show that I do actually care about OpenBSD and am most likely therefore not trolling for flames. In fact, for the cost of a $300 (.au) SCSI card, I don't feel that would be payment enough for even a single day for a single developer, for what they do with their skills. I wouldn't dare expect anything in return. I am merely grateful for what I get. I hope this is the end of this ridiculous waste of time. A single, pro-OpenBSD, throw away comment should not have come to this. Shane J Pearson shanejp netspace net au
RMS vs TdR (WAS: Re: OLPC)
Jack J. Woehr wrote: On Oct 10, 2006, at 5:38 PM, Shane J Pearson wrote: By interesting, you mean one is well meaning, but a little kooky and not always in touch with reality and the other is focused and committed to maintaining some sanity in the world of computing? No, I didn't mean that. I meant that both gentlemen are personal friends of mine and that the contrast between these two giants of free and open source software could hardly be more striking. Obviously there are elements trying to start an RMS/GNU versus TdR/BSD holy war. If you don't find it interesting that two men could take a stand for free and open ideals, and yet interpret those ideals so differently, then fine, it isn't interesting to you. Thanks for sharing, I guess. I don't find it very interesting myself yet I don't feel the need to tell the world, but that's just me. Maybe you've got it all worked out as part of your life plan. If you don't like RMS (or TdR for that matter) or his version of free and open ideals, then fine, you have the right to feel that way in most locales. I'm not particularly fond of RMS' views and ideas myself. But when you reply to the original poster's message feigning that you don't understand his point, well, then you come across as stupid. An inquisitive child could understand the difference between these two mens' views, and understand that some people might find it interesting. Really, truly stupid. And willing to share it with the rest of the world on a public mailing list, no less! Brilliant! If you want to start a holy war about the merits of these two positions then start a thread, preferably somewhere else, and howl into the wind. Nobody cares. We've all made up our minds about which side of the fence we are on. You aren't going to change my mind, or anyone else's. You are only making yourselves out to be a bunch of idiots. This sure doesn't help the image of the OpenBSD user base at all. When we aren't taken seriously it is, in part, because of childish melodrama like this thread. Breeno PS - Jack, some friendly advice, you are only encouraging them each time you reply. They obviously don't care about why you find interest in this subject. They only want to find a way to link you to RMS and then trash you.
Re: RMS vs TdR (WAS: Re: OLPC)
On Oct 11, 2006, at 10:58 AM, Breen Ouellette wrote: PS - Jack, some friendly advice, you are only encouraging them each time you reply. They obviously don't care about why you find interest in this subject. They only want to find a way to link you to RMS and then trash you. Thanks, Breen. Have been a brash and testosterone-dizzy young engineer myself a quarter of a century ago, I don't mind being part of the humanities education of today's young engineers, as long as it doesn't take too much time out of my current engineering workday :-) -- Jack J. Woehr Director of Development Absolute Performance, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303-443-7000 ext. 527
Re: RMS vs TdR (WAS: Re: OLPC)
Breen, Quoting Breen Ouellette [EMAIL PROTECTED]: PS - Jack, some friendly advice, you are only encouraging them each time you reply. They obviously don't care about why you find interest in this subject. They only want to find a way to link you to RMS and then trash you. I wasn't trying to start a holy war. I asked the question because interesting was placed in quotes, as if it had some greater unspoken meaning... I find the contrast between them ... um ... interesting. RMS being a bit out of touch sometimes is just my opinion. I'm not trying to link RMS to anyone or trash Jack. Shane This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au
Re: RMS vs TdR (WAS: Re: OLPC)
Breen, I am replying to this in full because I want my intentions known. I'll leave it at this. On 12/10/2006, at 2:58 AM, Breen Ouellette wrote: Jack J. Woehr wrote: On Oct 10, 2006, at 5:38 PM, Shane J Pearson wrote: By interesting, you mean one is well meaning, but a little kooky and not always in touch with reality and the other is focused and committed to maintaining some sanity in the world of computing? No, I didn't mean that. I meant that both gentlemen are personal friends of mine and that the contrast between these two giants of free and open source software could hardly be more striking. Obviously there are elements trying to start an RMS/GNU versus TdR/ BSD holy war. If you are referring to me, you are right off the mark. I never mentioned GNU or BSD and had no intention of starting anything. It was just a throw-away comment in support of the OpenBSD leadership. If you don't find it interesting that two men could take a stand for free and open ideals, and yet interpret those ideals so differently, then fine, it isn't interesting to you. I never said it was not interesting. If you don't like RMS (or TdR for that matter) or his version of free and open ideals, then fine, you have the right to feel that way in most locales. I'm not particularly fond of RMS' views and ideas myself. I very much respect both, but lean towards Theo's ideals and line of practical thinking, which is always very thought provoking for me. But that is just me. I wouldn't waste time trying to start a flame war, because this is just my opinion and I don't want to waste misc@ users time. I do now see that I probably just should have kept my opinion to myself, because it could be misinterpreted and was probably not worth mentioning. But when you reply to the original poster's message feigning that you don't understand his point, well, then you come across as stupid. An inquisitive child could understand the difference between these two mens' views, and understand that some people might find it interesting. Who are you referring to with this? Am I the stupid person for finding a vague comment to be vague? If I don't ask, then I can only make assumptions with something like: '...um... interesting' And my comment was mostly meant in jest. Really, truly stupid. And willing to share it with the rest of the world on a public mailing list, no less! Brilliant! I, when confronted with a vague comment, ask a question for clarification. Which admittedly was meant more of a humorous, rhetorical question. Whereas you, confronted with something also vague (to a lesser extent), choose to read a LOT into it and then go on the attack, publicly with a tirade against a bunch of incorrect assumptions. So which is more stupid? If you want to start a holy war about the merits of these two positions then start a thread, preferably somewhere else, and howl into the wind. Nobody cares. We've all made up our minds about which side of the fence we are on. You aren't going to change my mind, or anyone else's. You are only making yourselves out to be a bunch of idiots. I think you have rather made quite the arse of yourself, Breen. I can now see the danger of a holy war erupting from my oversight, but mostly due to presumptuous people like you, who shoot first then ask questions later. This sure doesn't help the image of the OpenBSD user base at all. When we aren't taken seriously it is, in part, because of childish melodrama like this thread. Frankly, I don't much worry about the perception of the OpenBSD user base, because I think any negative perceptions towards it as a whole would be unfounded. There are idiots in every user camp. However this user camp makes up for them and then some, with some really helpful decent people on the list. I just temporarily put them on my twit list. But in the past 7 years or so, I've only put ONE person from misc@ in my twit list and I've since taken them off, now that they've become more reasonable. PS - Jack, some friendly advice, you are only encouraging them each time you reply. They obviously don't care about why you find interest in this subject. They only want to find a way to link you to RMS and then trash you. You find a lot of things obvious for a guy who is so presumptuous. For the record, I respect the intentions of RMS and I highly respect the intentions and practical thinking of Theo, the OpenBSD project, the developers and much of the user base. I've been enjoying OpenBSD since 2.5 and I try to buy OpenBSD items and donate whenever I am financially able. I tried to donate brand new SCSI disks when Theo asked for them for the older machines and I purchased a brand new SCSI card for an Aussie developer and had it sent to him, while I was mostly unemployed with small funds. My intentions are honourable here. I messed up by touching
