Re: Adding a prompt on the installer before overwriting the partition table
Just tried the installer to see what the deafult option was. It was the OpenBSD partition and can't remember what the deafult option is without a OpenBSD partition. If that defaults to Whole you would have a better point. (thinking of the keyboard buffer when impaciant) Otherwise pressing W(hole) is a yes. I always do a install instead of upgrades. I can make the same mistake with disklabel on a machine which has a different layout from my most used layout. I can really understand your opinion. But when your using OpenBSD it is expected that you are know what your dealing with. It is not a "populair" OS which hold your hand. This year is I use it for 20 years and the installer is just simple and straight forward. One of the reasons I find OBSD more easy to use then other OSes. Van: owner-m...@openbsd.org namens Parodper Verzonden: maandag 28 juni 2021 18:21 Aan: misc@openbsd.org CC: dera...@openbsd.org Onderwerp: Re: Adding a prompt on the installer before overwriting the partition table O 28/06/21 ás 16:53, Theo de Raadt escribiu: > Parodper wrote: > >> I think there should be a prompt in the installer before >> overwriting the partition tables. The current behavior is, when >> selecting the whole disk, to overwrite the partition table >> directly. > > Isn't it kind of obvious that selecting the whole disk requires > overwriting the partition table? That assumes that people don't make mistakes, like I did. Having the default option be «delete everything **without asking**» seems to me as good place to make mistakes. At least the edit option requires more than just one key press to delete your data > The installer has acted this way for more than 20 years. It is well > documented. Haven't heard a complaint in a decade. Did you read the > installation docs? There have been multiple complains: https://marc.info/?t=14720374222=1=2 https://marc.info/?t=13311235202=1=2 https://marc.info/?t=9437909741=1=2 I decided to start a new thread because those old threads usually end with a «diff please» or centering too much on how the first user wrote the mail. > I doubt other major operating system installers ask you again if you > are sure you want this hidden but obvious step, so why should our > installer? Off the top of my head I couldn't tell you how other OS do it, but the Debian installer puts the template into the partitioning program, and the program asks no matter the option chosen. I would have suggested something like that, but I preferred to start with something more simple. > Meanwhile, your change probably breaks including auto and templated > installs -- because a newly introduced question which isn't answered > will receive \n, and without y\n it fails. That is a good complain. I have no experience with automated installs, so I don't know how they do it. But if the defaults have to be explicit then, instead of changing the fdisk option, I propose changing the default to the «(E)dit» option. On the other hand, if you don't want to change the installer interface in any way there is nothing more to discuss. > Furthermore I think the whole concept of installing multiple > operating systems on one disk and multiple-booting is increasingly > complex to the point of being a waste of time. Multiple partitions are not only used for having multiple operating systems. I usually have a data partition on my machines. > Major operating systems don't make it trivial. Depending on your definition of «trivial», yes they do. > Why should the smaller systems be held to the standard of making it > easy? I am not suggesting that OpenBSD should change the install process for a tablet-based interface. It is a small change for which I have suggested a diff. > Sorry to break the news, but as a rule the most fragile > configurations of any software are the ones unused by the developers. > This is definitely one. None of us use multiboot. True, but this is only tangentially related to multiboot.
Re: Adding a prompt on the installer before overwriting the partition table
Parodper wrote: > O 28/06/21 ás 16:53, Theo de Raadt escribiu: > > Parodper wrote: > > > >> I think there should be a prompt in the installer before > >> overwriting the partition tables. The current behavior is, when > >> selecting the whole disk, to overwrite the partition table > >> directly. > > Isn't it kind of obvious that selecting the whole disk requires > > overwriting the partition table? > > That assumes that people don't make mistakes, like I did. You did not make a mistake. It asked if you wanted to use the whole disk, and you said yes. The install script will not ask the same question in a different way.
Re: Adding a prompt on the installer before overwriting the partition table
O 28/06/21 ás 16:53, Theo de Raadt escribiu: Parodper wrote: I think there should be a prompt in the installer before overwriting the partition tables. The current behavior is, when selecting the whole disk, to overwrite the partition table directly. Isn't it kind of obvious that selecting the whole disk requires overwriting the partition table? That assumes that people don't make mistakes, like I did. Having the default option be «delete everything **without asking**» seems to me as good place to make mistakes. At least the edit option requires more than just one key press to delete your data The installer has acted this way for more than 20 years. It is well documented. Haven't heard a complaint in a decade. Did you read the installation docs? There have been multiple complains: https://marc.info/?t=14720374222=1=2 https://marc.info/?t=13311235202=1=2 https://marc.info/?t=9437909741=1=2 I decided to start a new thread because those old threads usually end with a «diff please» or centering too much on how the first user wrote the mail. I doubt other major operating system installers ask you again if you are sure you want this hidden but obvious step, so why should our installer? Off the top of my head I couldn't tell you how other OS do it, but the Debian installer puts the template into the partitioning program, and the program asks no matter the option chosen. I would have suggested something like that, but I preferred to start with something more simple. Meanwhile, your change probably breaks including auto and templated installs -- because a newly introduced question which isn't answered will receive \n, and without y\n it fails. That is a good complain. I have no experience with automated installs, so I don't know how they do it. But if the defaults have to be explicit then, instead of changing the fdisk option, I propose changing the default to the «(E)dit» option. On the other hand, if you don't want to change the installer interface in any way there is nothing more to discuss. Furthermore I think the whole concept of installing multiple operating systems on one disk and multiple-booting is increasingly complex to the point of being a waste of time. Multiple partitions are not only used for having multiple operating systems. I usually have a data partition on my machines. Major operating systems don't make it trivial. Depending on your definition of «trivial», yes they do. Why should the smaller systems be held to the standard of making it easy? I am not suggesting that OpenBSD should change the install process for a tablet-based interface. It is a small change for which I have suggested a diff. Sorry to break the news, but as a rule the most fragile configurations of any software are the ones unused by the developers. This is definitely one. None of us use multiboot. True, but this is only tangentially related to multiboot.
Re: Adding a prompt on the installer before overwriting the partition table
Most PC's have a BIOS boot menu which make it easy to use multiple OSes on seperate disks. Disks are cheap. Not worth the trouble of bootmanagers. Van: owner-m...@openbsd.org namens Theo de Raadt Verzonden: maandag 28 juni 2021 16:53 Aan: Parodper CC: misc@openbsd.org Onderwerp: Re: Adding a prompt on the installer before overwriting the partition table Parodper wrote: > I think there should be a prompt in the installer before overwriting the > partition tables. The current behavior is, when selecting the whole > disk, to overwrite the partition table directly. Isn't it kind of obvious that selecting the whole disk requires overwriting the partition table? The installer has acted this way for more than 20 years. It is well documented. Haven't heard a complaint in a decade. Did you read the installation docs? I doubt other major operating system installers ask you again if you are sure you want this hidden but obvious step, so why should our installer? Meanwhile, your change probably breaks including auto and templated installs -- because a newly introduced question which isn't answered will receive \n, and without y\n it fails. Furthermore I think the whole concept of installing multiple operating systems on one disk and multiple-booting is increasingly complex to the point of being a waste of time. Major operating systems don't make it trivial. Why should the smaller systems be held to the standard of making it easy? It is easy to get another machine, or use a virtual machine. Sorry to break the news, but as a rule the most fragile configurations of any software are the ones unused by the developers. This is definately one. None of us use multiboot.
Re: Adding a prompt on the installer before overwriting the partition table
On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 10:55 AM Theo de Raadt wrote: > > Parodper wrote: > > > I think there should be a prompt in the installer before overwriting the > > partition tables. The current behavior is, when selecting the whole > > disk, to overwrite the partition table directly. > > Isn't it kind of obvious that selecting the whole disk requires > overwriting the partition table? > > The installer has acted this way for more than 20 years. It is well > documented. Haven't heard a complaint in a decade. Did you read the > installation docs? > > I doubt other major operating system installers ask you again if you are > sure you want this hidden but obvious step, so why should our installer? > Meanwhile, your change probably breaks including auto and templated > installs -- because a newly introduced question which isn't answered > will receive \n, and without y\n it fails. > > Furthermore I think the whole concept of installing multiple operating > systems on one disk and multiple-booting is increasingly complex to the > point of being a waste of time. Major operating systems don't make it > trivial. Why should the smaller systems be held to the standard of > making it easy? It is easy to get another machine, or use a virtual > machine. Sorry to break the news, but as a rule the most fragile > configurations of any software are the ones unused by the developers. > This is definately one. None of us use multiboot. > my 2 cents here, I multi booted in 1999 , it's mostly useless this days, as stated above, if i were in a hurry i would have a usb key with openBSD boolader and MAYBE a boot.conf so i ask the BIOS to go boot that ( with f8 or f12 or whatever the bios provides ) This key can also be used as an emergency tool in case of hard drive failures. (W)hole disk is quite clear I wonder if anyone is using XEN this days to have multiple OS -- -- - Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do
Re: Adding a prompt on the installer before overwriting the partition table
Parodper wrote: > I think there should be a prompt in the installer before overwriting the > partition tables. The current behavior is, when selecting the whole > disk, to overwrite the partition table directly. Isn't it kind of obvious that selecting the whole disk requires overwriting the partition table? The installer has acted this way for more than 20 years. It is well documented. Haven't heard a complaint in a decade. Did you read the installation docs? I doubt other major operating system installers ask you again if you are sure you want this hidden but obvious step, so why should our installer? Meanwhile, your change probably breaks including auto and templated installs -- because a newly introduced question which isn't answered will receive \n, and without y\n it fails. Furthermore I think the whole concept of installing multiple operating systems on one disk and multiple-booting is increasingly complex to the point of being a waste of time. Major operating systems don't make it trivial. Why should the smaller systems be held to the standard of making it easy? It is easy to get another machine, or use a virtual machine. Sorry to break the news, but as a rule the most fragile configurations of any software are the ones unused by the developers. This is definately one. None of us use multiboot.
Adding a prompt on the installer before overwriting the partition table
I think there should be a prompt in the installer before overwriting the partition tables. The current behavior is, when selecting the whole disk, to overwrite the partition table directly. I am suggesting this because I once by mistake double pressed enter at the «Partitioning Disks» stage, selecting my main drive but also selecting the default partitioning option. I quickly canceled the operation, but it had already deleted my GPT table. I was able to recover it, but it should have asked, like it does on the «(E)dit» option. I would suggest modifying install.md like this (example from the amd64 version): --- install.md2021-06-28 15:07:22.28218 +0200 +++ install.md.ask2021-06-28 15:08:44.776914131 +0200 @@ -71,7 +71,7 @@ case $resp in [wW]*) echo -n "Setting OpenBSD MBR partition to whole $_disk..." -fdisk -iy $_disk >/dev/null +fdisk -i $_disk echo "done." return ;; [gG]*) @@ -81,7 +81,7 @@ fi echo -n "Setting OpenBSD GPT partition to whole $_disk..." -fdisk -iy -g -b 960 $_disk >/dev/null +fdisk -i -g -b 960 $_disk echo "done." return ;; [eE]*)
