ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
Due to unexpected reaction from the leader of the OpenBSD project (please read below), I am terminating the ComixWall project. I will keep the project server running until the end of this month. I might resurrect the project in the future with another host OS perhaps. I am going to unsubscribe from this list after posting this last message. He apparently prefers reading messages from 'pricks' (to use his terms) rather than release announcements from people trying to help. Good luck, and goodbye... On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 09:04 -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 14:03 +0200, Soner Tari wrote: On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 10:29 +0200, Soner Tari wrote: On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 23:46 -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: Don't you dare post that that to our lists again. I don't understand, what's the problem? If you think that I am making money out of ComixWall, you are completely wrong. I have not made a penny out of it, ever (this is just a homemade project by an OpenBSD enthusiast). In fact, I was doing this to help uninitiated people use OpenBSD, instead of something else. Is it so hard to believe? I can't believe what you just said... If you don't tell me that you were just joking, I have decided to terminate the ComixWall project. Given that my sole purpose was to help promote the use of OpenBSD, I will feel stupid continuing with this project while I am not even allowed to post its release announcements to the OpenBSD mailing lists. Take your advertisements OFF OUR LISTS
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 06:31:05PM +0200, Soner Tari wrote: Due to unexpected reaction from the leader of the OpenBSD project (please read below), I am terminating the ComixWall project. I will keep the project server running until the end of this month. I might resurrect the project in the future with another host OS perhaps. I am going to unsubscribe from this list after posting this last message. He apparently prefers reading messages from 'pricks' (to use his terms) rather than release announcements from people trying to help. I'm not taking sides, but how exactly are you trying to help? The few times I've seen you post to misc@ have been to promote your own fork of OpenBSD, or to ask for help in getting your own stuff running. How exactly does this help the _OpenBSD_project_? -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net/
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Jason Dixon ja...@dixongroup.net wrote: I'm not taking sides, but how exactly are you trying to help? B The few times I've seen you post to misc@ have been to promote your own fork of OpenBSD, or to ask for help in getting your own stuff running. B How exactly does this help the _OpenBSD_project_? COMIXWALL isn't a fork, its just a preinstalled configuration panel for OpenBSD and a collection of nice utilities. And considering (and no offence here) the COMIXWALL developers are enthusiasts not paid professional developers. So where's the harm asking some advice? After all lets face is some of the brightest minds in computer security lurk on this list and code for OpenBSD/OpenSSL. -- Opportunity is most often missed by people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. Thomas Alva Edison Inventor of 1093 patents, including: The light bulb, phonogram and motion pictures.
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
This is a VERY sad day :( Personally I managed to convert quite a few people to using OpenBSD by coaxing an interest via COMIXWALL. A grand pity and unfortunately if I were you I'd probably have done the same :( OpenBSD is possibly the cleanest most delightful OS to work on and most definitely the most secure I have worked on but the attitudes of /some/ the core developers leave much to be desired. That said, will I stop using OpenBSD on my edge devices... HELL NO! There just isn't an alternative :( On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Soner Tari so...@comixwall.org wrote: Due to unexpected reaction from the leader of the OpenBSD project (please read below), I am terminating the ComixWall project. I will keep the project server running until the end of this month. I might resurrect the project in the future with another host OS perhaps. I am going to unsubscribe from this list after posting this last message. He apparently prefers reading messages from 'pricks' (to use his terms) rather than release announcements from people trying to help. Good luck, and goodbye... On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 09:04 -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 14:03 +0200, Soner Tari wrote: On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 10:29 +0200, Soner Tari wrote: On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 23:46 -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: Don't you dare post that that to our lists again. I don't understand, what's the problem? If you think that I am making money out of ComixWall, you are completely wrong. I have not made a penny out of it, ever (this is just a homemade project by an OpenBSD enthusiast). In fact, I was doing this to help uninitiated people use OpenBSD, instead of something else. Is it so hard to believe? I can't believe what you just said... If you don't tell me that you were just joking, I have decided to terminate the ComixWall project. Given that my sole purpose was to help promote the use of OpenBSD, I will feel stupid continuing with this project while I am not even allowed to post its release announcements to the OpenBSD mailing lists. Take your advertisements OFF OUR LISTS -- Opportunity is most often missed by people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. Thomas Alva Edison Inventor of 1093 patents, including: The light bulb, phonogram and motion pictures.
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
COMIXWALL isn't a fork, its just a preinstalled configuration panel for OpenBSD and a collection of nice utilities. And considering (and no offence here) the COMIXWALL developers are enthusiasts not paid professional developers. So where's the harm asking some advice? After all lets face is some of the brightest minds in computer security lurk on this list and code for OpenBSD/OpenSSL. So it belongs as a a port then. Not as a distibution - and not sending release announcements to OpenBSD lists. Do we see release announcements here for other new ports? Do we see release announcements on our lists for Firefox? The point is not whether comixwall is a good thing. While I'll debate the wisdom of advertising yourself as a seperate distribtion when really you are a set of configuration tools, the point is simple: * Release Announcements For things that are not OpenBSD do not belong on OpenBSD lists * - We don't tell people who have other ported applications that run on openbsd to spew every release announcement over our lists - why should ComixWall be any different? This should not be difficult to understand.
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
This is just silly. If you make a firewall distribution to promote OpenBSD instead of making a firewall distribution, your source of motivation is wrong. OpenBSD is free software. You are completely free to use it as a basis for your firewall distribution. The project, on the other hand, does not have to distribute your advertisements. Especially not for every release. You can start your own mailing list and post them there. A single post to misc@ might have been OK to inform potentially interested people. If your choice of OS is based on whether you can advertize on their list, the loss is yours. If I were making a firewall distribution I'd certainly choose the OS that suits the project techincally. In any case OpenBSD does not owe anything to you. Had they asked you to promote OpenBSD this way it would be different.
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Bob Beck b...@ualberta.ca wrote: the point is simple: * Release Announcements For things that are not OpenBSD do not belong on OpenBSD lists * In both quoted responses Theo specifically mentioned the lists and for the OP to quit posting ads. I thought the message was quite clear. I'm not sure how the OP missed that.
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 10:37:01 -0700 Bob Beck b...@ualberta.ca wrote: COMIXWALL isn't a fork, its just a preinstalled configuration panel for OpenBSD and a collection of nice utilities. So it belongs as a a port then. Not as a distibution - and not sending release announcements to OpenBSD lists. as you wish. let's call it a port. Do we see release announcements here for other new ports? I'm quite new to OpenBSD, but I already read a few NEW: and UPDATED: announcements on the -ports mailing list. Anyway, comixwall is not a part of the official ports tree. So the release announcements of comixwall should not go into the ports list either. I had a second look at the descriptions of the mailing lists: misc User questions and answers, general questions. This is the most active list. Please, read the FAQ and the installation documents, and see How to report a Problem before posting. advocacy Promoting the use of OpenBSD. Non-technical discussions in misc often get shunted here. So as I read this announcements of projects trying to promote OpenBSD can (and should) go into the advocacy list. misc is only for user questions, general questions. Asking for translators might fit in here. Still as comixwall is trying to promote OpenBSD the request may fit better into the advocacy list. The only problem is the advocacy list is quite dead. So the decision to post the announcement of ComixWall to the misc list does not seem too stupid to me. Do we see release announcements on our lists for Firefox? comixwall is developed to make using OpenBSD easier. It's only project goal is to prove that it is possible to create high quality, free and open source ISG based on OpenBSD (cited from the comixwall homepage). So I would say its relevance for OpenBSD users (the audience of this list) is much higher than firefox releases. * Release Announcements For things that are not OpenBSD do not belong on OpenBSD lists * - We don't tell people who have other ported applications that run on openbsd to spew every release announcement over our lists - why should ComixWall be any different? According to the archives at MARC there were exactly two release announcements of comixwall on this list. One in 2008 and one in 2009. This is not exactly the amount it takes to pollute a mailing list. This stupid thread did already produce enough noise to make up for 7 years of comixwall release announcements. I know I just added some additional noise, still I would be glad to see this issue settled in a non-destructive way. OpenBSD is a great OS and ComixWall enables many people to use it. I don't see any reason why the two projects should not be able to cooperate. Christopher Zimmermann
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 07:26:39PM +0100, Christopher Zimmermann wrote: I'm quite new to OpenBSD, but I already read a few NEW: and UPDATED: announcements on the -ports mailing list. misc != ports The only problem is the advocacy list is quite dead. So the decision to post the announcement of ComixWall to the misc list does not seem too stupid to me. ComixWall != OpenBSD Do we see release announcements on our lists for Firefox? comixwall is developed to make using OpenBSD easier. It's How does the announcement of new releases for ComixWall help OpenBSD? How does abstraction of arguably the cleanest, easiest to learn UNIX, help OpenBSD? According to the archives at MARC there were exactly two release announcements of comixwall on this list. One in 2008 and one in 2009. This is not exactly the amount it takes to pollute a mailing list. That doesn't make it right. This stupid thread did already produce enough noise to make up for 7 years of comixwall release announcements. Pat yourself on the back. I know I just added some additional noise, still I would be glad to see this issue settled in a non-destructive way. It is settled. You're whining. OpenBSD is a great OS and ComixWall enables many people to use it. I don't see any reason why the two projects should not be able to cooperate. Because they are not cooperative projects. OpenBSD doesn't need ComixWall. OpenBSD is Free, Functional and Secure(*). (*) And easy. -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net/
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Christopher Zimmermann madro...@zakweb.de wrote: Do we see release announcements here for other new ports? I'm quite new to OpenBSD, but I already read a few NEW: and UPDATED: announcements on the -ports mailing list. This is the misc list, not the ports list. They are different. And if you looked at those mails, you would see that they had ports attached, not links to openbsd distributions including the port. Anyway, comixwall is not a part of the official ports tree. So the release announcements of comixwall should not go into the ports list either. If you make a port of something new, you mail it to ports with a subject of NEW. If you update a port, you use a subject of UPDATED. In either case, a port or diff should be attached. If it's not a port and there's no attachment, then you are correct, it doesn't belong on ports either.
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:38:56 -0500 Jason Dixon ja...@dixongroup.net wrote: How does the announcement of new releases for ComixWall help OpenBSD? It helps in promoting OpenBSD. And this is the official purpose of the advocasy mailing list. So I think that announcements of ComixWall releases could go into the advocasy list. Is this a false conclusion? If not Soner Tari could go on with his project and post his announcements to the advocacy list. Anyway, since the advocascy list is dead, the two announcements to misc should not be censured in such a harsh way. How does abstraction of arguably the cleanest, easiest to learn UNIX, help OpenBSD? It helps in promoting OpenBSD. Promoting OpenBSD will make OpenBSD more widely known. This will attract more possible developers. They will write code for OpenBSD. This will help OpenBSD. I know I just added some additional noise, still I would be glad to see this issue settled in a non-destructive way. It is settled. You're whining. If this is true, it's a pity. Then comixwall just died. I still hope this issue can be settled in a NON-DESTRUCTIVE way. And yes. I AM WHINING. It bothers me when people destroy such a huge amount of good work just because of a stupid attack of bad mood. OpenBSD is a great OS and ComixWall enables many people to use it. I don't see any reason why the two projects should not be able to cooperate. Because they are not cooperative projects. OpenBSD doesn't need ComixWall. OpenBSD is Free, Functional and Secure(*). (*) And easy. Right. And the devil may care. Not helping comixwall by bearing one release announcement per year is not lazy, not even selfish, its just PLAIN FUCKING STUPID!
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wednesday 09 December 2009 5:01:05 pm Christopher Zimmermann wrote: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:38:56 -0500 Jason Dixon ja...@dixongroup.net wrote: How does the announcement of new releases for ComixWall help OpenBSD? It helps in promoting OpenBSD. And this is the official purpose of the advocasy mailing list. So I think that announcements of ComixWall releases could go into the advocasy list. Is this a false conclusion? If not Soner Tari could go on with his project and post his announcements to the advocacy list. Anyway, since the advocascy list is dead, the two announcements to misc should not be censured in such a harsh way. +1 How does abstraction of arguably the cleanest, easiest to learn UNIX, help OpenBSD? It helps in promoting OpenBSD. Promoting OpenBSD will make OpenBSD more widely known. This will attract more possible developers. They will write code for OpenBSD. This will help OpenBSD. +1 I know I just added some additional noise, still I would be glad to see this issue settled in a non-destructive way. It is settled. You're whining. If this is true, it's a pity. Then comixwall just died. I still hope this issue can be settled in a NON-DESTRUCTIVE way. +1 And yes. I AM WHINING. It bothers me when people destroy such a huge amount of good work just because of a stupid attack of bad mood. OpenBSD is a great OS and ComixWall enables many people to use it. I don't see any reason why the two projects should not be able to cooperate. Because they are not cooperative projects. OpenBSD doesn't need ComixWall. OpenBSD is Free, Functional and Secure(*). (*) And easy. Right. And the devil may care. Not helping comixwall by bearing one release announcement per year is not lazy, not even selfish, its just PLAIN FUCKING STUPID! And I have to agree with that one too ... Best Regards Gonzalo Nemmi
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On 20:01, Wed 09 Dec 09, Christopher Zimmermann wrote: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:38:56 -0500 Jason Dixon ja...@dixongroup.net wrote: It helps in promoting OpenBSD. Promoting OpenBSD will make OpenBSD more widely known. This will attract more possible developers. They will write code for OpenBSD. This will help OpenBSD. No. It helps promoting ComixWall and it will attract people to ComixWall and those people will contribute to ComixWall. While rereading that I see 'ComixWall' three times, and OpenBSD 0 times. I know I just added some additional noise, still I would be glad to see this issue settled in a non-destructive way. It is settled. You're whining. If this is true, it's a pity. Then comixwall just died. I still hope this issue can be settled in a NON-DESTRUCTIVE way. And yes. I AM WHINING. It bothers me when people destroy such a huge amount of good work just because of a stupid attack of bad mood. OpenBSD is a great OS and ComixWall enables many people to use it. I don't see any reason why the two projects should not be able to cooperate. Because they are not cooperative projects. OpenBSD doesn't need ComixWall. OpenBSD is Free, Functional and Secure(*). (*) And easy. Right. And the devil may care. Not helping comixwall by bearing one release announcement per year is not lazy, not even selfish, its just PLAIN FUCKING STUPID! Telling us that ComixWall makes it possible to use OpenBSD is stupid. Now quit wasting your time and download a insert major linux distro that comes with a shitload of 'user friendly' wizards iso. -- Michiel van Baak mich...@vanbaak.eu http://michiel.vanbaak.eu GnuPG key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x71C946BD Why is it drug addicts and computer aficionados are both called users?
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Christopher Zimmermann madro...@zakweb.de wrote: It helps in promoting OpenBSD. Promoting OpenBSD will make OpenBSD more widely known. This will attract more possible developers. They will write code for OpenBSD. This will help OpenBSD. If OpenBSD is hard to use, people should work to make it easier to use. That way everybody benefits, not just the lucky few who get to use the easy distro. Imagine if instead of people contributing device drivers to OpenBSD, they made a unique distro that was OpenBSD + a driver.
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Christopher Zimmermann madro...@zakweb.dewrote: If this is true, it's a pity. Then comixwall just died. Theo told Soner to cease. Soner came back with if you don't tell me you were just joking, I'm going to terminate the Comixwall project. It was Soner's choice. He threw his ass like a 5 year old. Comixwall just died because Soner couldn't take being told to do things differently, not because of the attitude of Theo and the OpenBSD devs. If you're looking for something to point at and call stupid, I'd say Soner's decision is a good starting place.
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
2009/12/9 Christopher Zimmermann madro...@zakweb.de: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:38:56 -0500 Jason Dixon ja...@dixongroup.net wrote: How does the announcement of new releases for ComixWall help OpenBSD? It helps in promoting OpenBSD. And this is the official purpose of the advocasy mailing list. I seriously doubt that Theo sells any cd more because of ComixWall. And sale of cds is what ultimately counts as promoting OpenBSD. I can't find Tari's name on http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html, nor can I find a link to there from http://comixwall.org While I applaud him for his effort and think this is a great thing, he hides OpenBSD quite well. Anyway, since the advocascy list is dead, the two announcements to misc should not be censured in such a harsh way. Indeed. I applaud Theo for implementing a zero-tolerance-for-spam policy on the mailing lists. :-) I still hope this issue can be settled in a NON-DESTRUCTIVE way. Same here. The efforts of Comixwall should be folded into OpenBSD. (*) And easy. :-))) Best Martin
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
So .. in the end, the fact that ComixWall uses OpenBSD as it's fundation, _does_ help promote OpenBSD use and expand it's user base Bullshit. Please get this off our lists.
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wednesday 09 December 2009 5:25:59 pm Michiel van Baak wrote: On 20:01, Wed 09 Dec 09, Christopher Zimmermann wrote: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:38:56 -0500 Jason Dixon ja...@dixongroup.net wrote: It helps in promoting OpenBSD. Promoting OpenBSD will make OpenBSD more widely known. This will attract more possible developers. They will write code for OpenBSD. This will help OpenBSD. No. It helps promoting ComixWall and it will attract people to ComixWall and those people will contribute to ComixWall. See there Michiel .. beauty lies in the eye of the beholder .. that's you opinion ... and by no means it's authoritative .. nor anything close to it. Whether it helps promoting ComixWall or not is debatable .. but that OpenBSD is the underlying OS said software is a fact. Now, regardless of the ComixWall promoting benefits of a couple of mails sent the (maybe, maybe not) the wrong list, the fact is that ComixWall users .. are actually OpenBSD users .. just as much as FreeNAS or PC-BSD users, are actually FreeBSD users ... So .. in the end, the fact that ComixWall uses OpenBSD as it's fundation, _does_ help promote OpenBSD use and expand it's user base ... just as BSDAnywhere _does_ help promote OpenBSD use and expand it's user base ... just as liveusb-openbsd _does_ help promote OpenBSD use and expand it's user base, and so on .. While rereading that I see 'ComixWall' three times, and OpenBSD 0 times. Well then .. read the paragraph I just wrote for you .. it says OpenBSD a lot of times :) I know I just added some additional noise, still I would be glad to see this issue settled in a non-destructive way. It is settled. You're whining. If this is true, it's a pity. Then comixwall just died. I still hope this issue can be settled in a NON-DESTRUCTIVE way. And yes. I AM WHINING. It bothers me when people destroy such a huge amount of good work just because of a stupid attack of bad mood. OpenBSD is a great OS and ComixWall enables many people to use it. I don't see any reason why the two projects should not be able to cooperate. Because they are not cooperative projects. OpenBSD doesn't need ComixWall. OpenBSD is Free, Functional and Secure(*). (*) And easy. Right. And the devil may care. Not helping comixwall by bearing one release announcement per year is not lazy, not even selfish, its just PLAIN FUCKING STUPID! Telling us that ComixWall makes it possible to use OpenBSD is stupid. Uhm .. nobody ever said that .. you must have read it wrong ... or you are just .. well .. you know .. Now quit wasting your time and download a insert major linux distro that comes with a shitload of 'user friendly' wizards iso. Why would anybody want to do that? Aren't we all UNIX users? There's PC-BSD for that matter .. or FreeBSD if you feel so inclined .. no need to resort to Linux .. which is a whole different thing Michiel ... that was quite a lousy shot there .. Best Regards Gonzalo Nemmi
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 20:43:59 +0100 Martin Schr__der mar...@oneiros.de wrote: 2009/12/9 Christopher Zimmermann madro...@zakweb.de: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:38:56 -0500 Jason Dixon ja...@dixongroup.net wrote: How does the announcement of new releases for ComixWall help OpenBSD? It helps in promoting OpenBSD. And this is the official purpose of the advocasy mailing list. I seriously doubt that Theo sells any cd more because of ComixWall. And sale of cds is what ultimately counts as promoting OpenBSD. I can't find Tari's name on http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html, nor can I find a link to there from http://comixwall.org While I applaud him for his effort and think this is a great thing, he hides OpenBSD quite well. He links several times to openbsd. Try clicking on the OpenBSD 4.6 cover displayed on the main page. Since Soner Tari does not sell his project he could easily link to the donations page if asked. I still hope this issue can be settled in a NON-DESTRUCTIVE way. Same here. The efforts of Comixwall should be folded into OpenBSD. Now that would be great of course. Do you think it would be possible to distribute comixwall as several ports in the ports tree? Only installation would become a bit more difficult. But this should not be a big deal. It's just a pity that the constructive proposals come only after people already gave up
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 08:01:05PM +0100, Christopher Zimmermann wrote: How does abstraction of arguably the cleanest, easiest to learn UNIX, help OpenBSD? It helps in promoting OpenBSD. Promoting OpenBSD will make OpenBSD more widely known. This will attract more possible developers. They will write code for OpenBSD. This will help OpenBSD. This is ridiculous.
Re: ComixWall terminated [WAS: ComixWall 4.6 released, December 8, 2009]
Am 9 Dec 2009 um 19:01 schrieb Christopher Zimmermann: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:38:56 -0500 Jason Dixon ja...@dixongroup.net wrote: How does the announcement of new releases for ComixWall help OpenBSD? It helps in promoting OpenBSD. And this is the official purpose of the advocasy mailing list. So I think that announcements of ComixWall releases could go into the advocasy list. Is this a false conclusion? If not Soner Tari could go on with his project and post his announcements to the advocacy list. Anyway, since the advocascy list is dead, the two announcements to misc should not be censured in such a harsh way. The premise that this is advocacy may be entirely mistaken, as it does not strike me as a strong argument in favour of OpenBSD to say that it needs to be redistributed with an alternate installer, a web GUI, and some additional software builds to be *really* useful than as released by the core development community. Might it not be the case that the existing packages and ports system already makes OpenBSD a fully FOSS and freely available UTM firewall or that improving support for what's bundled with ComixWall to make more components available as packages and/or ports would be offer greater flexibility in how people decide to acquire and deploy the product, more effectively supporting and growing the community? This creates a problem of due recognition and attribution, which is what's feeding all the moments of dispute and misunderstanding that follow. How does abstraction of arguably the cleanest, easiest to learn UNIX, help OpenBSD? It helps in promoting OpenBSD. Promoting OpenBSD will make OpenBSD more widely known. This will attract more possible developers. They will write code for OpenBSD. This will help OpenBSD. These conclusions are tenuous leaps, amounting to a secret sauce argument: OpenBSD tastes good, but with the secret sauce it would be able attract all kinds of smart people it somehow can't attract with its current recipe. This logic of supplementarity rather makes the supplement the essential thing rather than the essential thing that it's supposed to promote, and that seems to sell what OpenBSD already is and its ability to continue to evolve as a technology, a development process, and a series of communities short. Not even prospectively can the proposition that there is no ComixWall without OpenBSD be not made reversible in the way you seem to suggest, any more than supporting a redistribution on premises overstated with respect to the OpenBSD core will amount to support in various forms getting back to OpenBSD per se. You say grafting, I say grifting. I know I just added some additional noise, still I would be glad to see this issue settled in a non-destructive way. It is settled. You're whining. If this is true, it's a pity. Then comixwall just died. I still hope this issue can be settled in a NON-DESTRUCTIVE way. And yes. I AM WHINING. It bothers me when people destroy such a huge amount of good work just because of a stupid attack of bad mood. Sorry if I'm repeating myself for a moment here, but isn't imagining ComixWall as a (or the) vital supplement to OpenBSD in the way you're suggesting selling a huge amount of very far good work short? I find myself able to reach that conclusion without being seized by a fit of pique, but I can imagine having good reason to be angry at the suggestion, the more so if I was one of the people with a sustained record of contribution to the project. If there's an attack that's happened, it may be a stupid, but that's as far as the agreed facts go. I'm sure you mean well, but I for one don't follow your account of what's destruction and what's supportive here. If the question is how to do better, the prospects for improvement are substantially reduced if one fails to grasp what has succeeded thus far. OpenBSD is a great OS and ComixWall enables many people to use it. I don't see any reason why the two projects should not be able to cooperate. Because they are not cooperative projects. OpenBSD doesn't need ComixWall. OpenBSD is Free, Functional and Secure(*). (*) And easy. Right. And the devil may care. Not helping comixwall by bearing one release announcement per year is not lazy, not even selfish, its just PLAIN FUCKING STUPID! As for the devil, aren't those the details the difference between Faust I lines 4611 and 4612? OpenBSD doesn't face Gretchen's problems, and overstating self-deprecation in the name of self-promotion seems more rather than less stupid, even if these indulgences are limited to a few annual episodes. Oh, the sauce! If the complaint here is that there's something overwrought, it seems ironic in not quite the right way to be so overwrought in response. If I've poked you with a stick here it's aimed at ticklish spots so that we might now take a moment to have a chuckle and then get back on track.
