Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[frantisek holop]

Ulf Brosziewski, 15 Jun 2016 00:48:
> Your feedback in bugs@ would be appreciated. Can you exclude that
> it's a hardware failure? Some people claim that various Acer models
> are prone to such failures because the touchpads have a bad
> electrical grounding.

i sent a reply to your bugs@ reply the same day,
but the t-mobile server rejected my email after 7 days(!)
so i was planning to resend it in some other way,
but the list should do :]

i also have linux mint on that notebook but i don't use
it that much. when i used it, the touchpad was working
but now i forget in which mode.  i will do a session
of a couple of hours and get back to you.

just a hunch at the moment but there was similar
behaviour on one of my previous netbooks when there was
a "mismatch" in the synaptics protocol...

-f
-- 
for texas and miss lillie!

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[Ulf Brosziewski]

On 06/14/2016 11:58 PM, frantisek holop wrote:
> ropers, 14 Jun 2016 03:37:
>>> the acer travelmate b115-m is an el cheapo netbook
>>> with no moving parts if you stick an ssd in it.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for the addition and dmesg. Do you know if all the Travelmate B115's
>> are fanless or only the M models, not MP or P? What about the B116's and
>> B117's? Actually, are all the Travelmate B's fanless?
> 
> well, it doesn't say on the website, does it? :]
> i think the biggest difference between MP and M was the
> multi-touch-screen...   i _think_ they are all fanless
> because of the CPU models, they are not that high end.
> but 116 and 117 are not bay trail but braswell if i am
> not mistaken, and i don't know the state of braswell on
> openbsd...
> 
>>> it suspends, resumes, most things work;
>>> the clickpad and the wifi being notable exceptions.
>>>
>>
>> Does this mean that despite dmesg recognition, the pms0 device somehow does
>> not work at all (=need external mouse), or does this mean just
>> fancy-schmancy gesturing support won't work (limiting the pad to working
>> like a conventional trackpad)?
> 
> the bios has to clickpad settings: basic/advanced.  i
> could not make it work reliably with either of these
> settings.  it seems to work sometimes but than it goes
> "crazy" and the mouse cursor runs around so fast, it is
> blurred.  so at the moment yes, i have to use an
> external mouse or vim :]
> 
>> Is the apparent absence of separate trackpad buttons (as per pics I
>> googled) an issue? Can the pad's lower parts work like buttons, or is it
>> only tap-to-click (which I seriously hate)?
> 
> unfortunately there are no hw buttons...  i'd also
> prefer that.  some linux users seem to had luck in
> setting up X.org for soft buttons, but i did not try
> as for a while setting the clickpad to emulate double
> click and middle click seemed to work.  then the
> crazyness came again :]
> 
> i have sent a bugreport and we'll see.

Your feedback in bugs@ would be appreciated. Can you exclude that
it's a hardware failure? Some people claim that various Acer models
are prone to such failures because the touchpads have a bad
electrical grounding.

> 
>> I see some models have a touchscreen. Does yours? Do all of them? (I'd
>> rather do without that.)
> 
> M's don't.
> 
>> Is the glossy screen annoying? (I prefer matte.)
> 
> the screen is as the price tag suggests..  not amazing
> but quite usable.
> 
> i am very happy with it because my requirements were:
> cheap, quiet, small, run openbsd w/o uefi (at the time
> there was none in openbsd).
> 
> -f

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[frantisek holop]

ropers, 14 Jun 2016 03:37:
> > the acer travelmate b115-m is an el cheapo netbook
> > with no moving parts if you stick an ssd in it.
> >
> 
> Thanks for the addition and dmesg. Do you know if all the Travelmate B115's
> are fanless or only the M models, not MP or P? What about the B116's and
> B117's? Actually, are all the Travelmate B's fanless?

well, it doesn't say on the website, does it? :]
i think the biggest difference between MP and M was the
multi-touch-screen...   i _think_ they are all fanless
because of the CPU models, they are not that high end.
but 116 and 117 are not bay trail but braswell if i am
not mistaken, and i don't know the state of braswell on
openbsd...

> > it suspends, resumes, most things work;
> > the clickpad and the wifi being notable exceptions.
> >
> 
> Does this mean that despite dmesg recognition, the pms0 device somehow does
> not work at all (=need external mouse), or does this mean just
> fancy-schmancy gesturing support won't work (limiting the pad to working
> like a conventional trackpad)?

the bios has to clickpad settings: basic/advanced.  i
could not make it work reliably with either of these
settings.  it seems to work sometimes but than it goes
"crazy" and the mouse cursor runs around so fast, it is
blurred.  so at the moment yes, i have to use an
external mouse or vim :]

> Is the apparent absence of separate trackpad buttons (as per pics I
> googled) an issue? Can the pad's lower parts work like buttons, or is it
> only tap-to-click (which I seriously hate)?

unfortunately there are no hw buttons...  i'd also
prefer that.  some linux users seem to had luck in
setting up X.org for soft buttons, but i did not try
as for a while setting the clickpad to emulate double
click and middle click seemed to work.  then the
crazyness came again :]

i have sent a bugreport and we'll see.

> I see some models have a touchscreen. Does yours? Do all of them? (I'd
> rather do without that.)

M's don't.

> Is the glossy screen annoying? (I prefer matte.)

the screen is as the price tag suggests..  not amazing
but quite usable.

i am very happy with it because my requirements were:
cheap, quiet, small, run openbsd w/o uefi (at the time
there was none in openbsd).

-f
-- 
i'm a tagline.  when i grow up i wanna be a novel.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[frantisek holop]

Erling Westenvik, 14 Jun 2016 09:03:
> With all due respect: This is not the place to ask for detailed specs
> for a whole series of computers. You could easily have found answers to all
> of your questions above if you had done some very basic homework:
> 
> http://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/professional-models/laptops/travelmateb

i disagree with your notion of homework.
it's a nightmare and these pages tell you shit
except the highest level of barely useful information.

first of all acer does region specific models,
so none of these are the models i have seen
in european shops.

without the actual dmesgs it is a minefield.  models
that maybe differ in one letter can have totally
different wifi cards and other components.

-f
-- 
if you live long enough, it will kill you...

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[Erling Westenvik]

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 03:37:01AM +0200, ropers wrote:
> On 14 June 2016 at 00:53, frantisek holop  wrote:
> 
> > the acer travelmate b115-m is an el cheapo netbook
> > with no moving parts if you stick an ssd in it.
> 
> Thanks for the addition and dmesg. Do you know if all the Travelmate B115's
> are fanless or only the M models, not MP or P? What about the B116's and
> B117's? Actually, are all the Travelmate B's fanless?
> 
> > it suspends, resumes, most things work;
> > the clickpad and the wifi being notable exceptions.
> 
> Does this mean that despite dmesg recognition, the pms0 device somehow does
> not work at all (=need external mouse), or does this mean just
> fancy-schmancy gesturing support won't work (limiting the pad to working
> like a conventional trackpad)?
> Is the apparent absence of separate trackpad buttons (as per pics I
> googled) an issue? Can the pad's lower parts work like buttons, or is it
> only tap-to-click (which I seriously hate)?
> 
> I see some models have a touchscreen. Does yours? Do all of them? (I'd
> rather do without that.)
> 
> Is the glossy screen annoying? (I prefer matte.)

With all due respect: This is not the place to ask for detailed specs
for a whole series of computers. You could easily have found answers to all
of your questions above if you had done some very basic homework:

http://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/professional-models/laptops/travelmateb

Good luck, though. :)

Best regards.
Erling

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[ropers]

On 14 June 2016 at 00:53, frantisek holop  wrote:

> the acer travelmate b115-m is an el cheapo netbook
> with no moving parts if you stick an ssd in it.
>

Thanks for the addition and dmesg. Do you know if all the Travelmate B115's
are fanless or only the M models, not MP or P? What about the B116's and
B117's? Actually, are all the Travelmate B's fanless?


> it suspends, resumes, most things work;
> the clickpad and the wifi being notable exceptions.
>

Does this mean that despite dmesg recognition, the pms0 device somehow does
not work at all (=need external mouse), or does this mean just
fancy-schmancy gesturing support won't work (limiting the pad to working
like a conventional trackpad)?
Is the apparent absence of separate trackpad buttons (as per pics I
googled) an issue? Can the pad's lower parts work like buttons, or is it
only tap-to-click (which I seriously hate)?

I see some models have a touchscreen. Does yours? Do all of them? (I'd
rather do without that.)

Is the glossy screen annoying? (I prefer matte.)

Thanks again.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[frantisek holop]

the acer travelmate b115-m is an el cheapo netbook
with no moving parts if you stick an ssd in it.
the sound of silence is very relaxing.

it suspends, resumes, most things work;
the clickpad and the wifi being notable exceptions.
but there is no wifi card blacklist (eat shit lenovo)
so problem solved.

it's not a monster obviously but high end machines
do not come fanless anyway.

the plastic is very cheap, but the design is stylish
and it's much thinner than it looks on pictures.
as a bonus i could buy it without windows and
secureboot can be disabled.  as good as it gets in
notebook world for me...

dmesg:
http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech=146185180505045=2

-f
-- 
equal bytes to women!

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[lists]

> :It is not a good idea to mix topics, stay focused and think before send.
> :
> :Attitude is formed based on intelligence of email postings.  We all know
> :highly educated people can disagree without negative feelings.  Grow up.
> :
> :I encourage you to keep posting until you meet the quality expectations.
> :
> 
> Wrant: Your actions are offensive to the community in general, and
> specifically to those you respond to.
> 
> Stop replying to mails on this list.

To this thread I agree not to reply any more unless provoked directly.
There is at least one future reader I have not managed to offend yet..

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[Peter Hessler]

On 2016 Jun 13 (Mon) at 05:25:17 +0300 (+0300), li...@wrant.com wrote:
:It is not a good idea to mix topics, stay focused and think before send.
:
:Attitude is formed based on intelligence of email postings.  We all know
:highly educated people can disagree without negative feelings.  Grow up.
:
:I encourage you to keep posting until you meet the quality expectations.
:

Wrant: Your actions are offensive to the community in general, and
specifically to those you respond to.

Stop replying to mails on this list.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[bytevolcano]

I'll see what I can get for you, ropers. In the mean while, I can say
that most of the devices on my CF-30 and CF-31 function well, as
indicated by the dmesg. Then again, they only have basic options on
those laptops.

On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 09:25:29 +0200
ropers  wrote:
> 
> Also, while dmesg requests aren't a bad idea (bytevolcano? pretty plz?
> joekiser? when available?), ...

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[lists]

> On 13 June 2016 at 05:29,  wrote:
> > ignore this entire mediocre thread, search the archive instead.

Mon, 13 Jun 2016 09:25:29 +0200 ropers 
> I did.

This is a lie.  You created the thread on purpose with wrong definitions.
This is towards future readers, based on the fact that the value is zero.

> The real reason why you responded to me as you did was because I had
> thanked a person you had insulted earlier.

The low rating of the thread is because you did not review the archives,
did not do your home work before posting & the after work was marketing.

You thanked people for helping you fulfil your job of spamming the list.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[lists]

Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:07:14 +1000 
> Irony mode ACTIVATE.

Exactly: ignore this entire mediocre thread, search the archive instead.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[bytevolcano]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 05:25:17 +0300
li...@wrant.com wrote:

> ... until you meet the quality expectations.

Irony mode ACTIVATE.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[lists]

> > Sun, 12 Jun 2016 23:48:33 +0200 ropers   
> > > Compiled for myself and the archives:  
> >
> > For you only, the archives deserve much better: higher quality threads.
> >  
> > > < Fanless OpenBSD-capable (probably) laptops >  
> >
> > You're in for a LOT of disappointment if you follow marketing material
> > without dmesg and live field use reports.  This is the OpenBSD "misc@"
> > mailing list, and it is expected people consult these archives for real
> > useful correct quality information.  Or at least minimum attempts at it.
> >
> > From a future visitor perspective this thread should be ignored.  It
> > would not make a happy future OpenBSD developer, not even a BSD user.
> >
> > This is mostly incomplete self oriented desktop companion media centre
> > laptop incompetence all around.  Pretty lame.  Skip it, ask for dmesgs
> > on actively usable for development or alternatively a "communications"
> > devices from actual OpenBSD people, and not sales pitching affiliates.

Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:23:56 -0700 noah pugsley 
> Your attitude is offensive  to all of us who work on this project.

It is not a good idea to mix topics, stay focused and think before send.

Attitude is formed based on intelligence of email postings.  We all know
highly educated people can disagree without negative feelings.  Grow up.

I encourage you to keep posting until you meet the quality expectations.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[bytevolcano]

If you can't read the question properly, please remain silent.

On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 02:21:48 +0300
li...@wrant.com wrote:

> For you only, the archives deserve much better: higher quality
> threads.
...
> You're in for a LOT of disappointment if you follow marketing material
> without dmesg and live field use reports.  This is the OpenBSD "misc@"
> mailing list, and it is expected people consult these archives for
> real useful correct quality information.  Or at least minimum
> attempts at it.
> 
> From a future visitor perspective this thread should be ignored.  It
> would not make a happy future OpenBSD developer, not even a BSD user.
> 
> This is mostly incomplete self oriented desktop companion media centre
> laptop incompetence all around.  Pretty lame.  Skip it, ask for dmesgs
> on actively usable for development or alternatively a "communications"
> devices from actual OpenBSD people, and not sales pitching affiliates.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[noah pugsley]

On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 4:21 PM,  wrote:

> Sun, 12 Jun 2016 23:48:33 +0200 ropers 
> > Compiled for myself and the archives:
>
> For you only, the archives deserve much better: higher quality threads.
>
> > < Fanless OpenBSD-capable (probably) laptops >
>
> You're in for a LOT of disappointment if you follow marketing material
> without dmesg and live field use reports.  This is the OpenBSD "misc@"
> mailing list, and it is expected people consult these archives for real
> useful correct quality information.  Or at least minimum attempts at it.
>
> From a future visitor perspective this thread should be ignored.  It
> would not make a happy future OpenBSD developer, not even a BSD user.
>
> This is mostly incomplete self oriented desktop companion media centre
> laptop incompetence all around.  Pretty lame.  Skip it, ask for dmesgs
> on actively usable for development or alternatively a "communications"
> devices from actual OpenBSD people, and not sales pitching affiliates.
>
>
I don't speak for this list, but for some reason you seem to think you do.

I wonder what someone with some authority here might say?

Oh wait, we have an example from less than a year ago:

"Wrant.. Go away. If you had any experience as a real developer on
anything you would understand the message to wait until the API is
stable, otherwise we're just wasting people's time and effort.

Your attitude is offensive  to all of us who work on this project.

Please take your ungratefulness and sense of entitlement to another project.
I'm sure there are Linux distributions you would get more out of.

Get off our mailing lists, or shut the fuck up. Your choice.

-Bob"

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech=143750853704661=2

NOBODY WANTS YOU OR YOUR SHITTY ATTITUDE HERE.

Fuck off, be silent or be ignored.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[lists]

Sun, 12 Jun 2016 23:48:33 +0200 ropers 
> Compiled for myself and the archives:

For you only, the archives deserve much better: higher quality threads.

> < Fanless OpenBSD-capable (probably) laptops >

You're in for a LOT of disappointment if you follow marketing material
without dmesg and live field use reports.  This is the OpenBSD "misc@"
mailing list, and it is expected people consult these archives for real
useful correct quality information.  Or at least minimum attempts at it.

>From a future visitor perspective this thread should be ignored.  It
would not make a happy future OpenBSD developer, not even a BSD user.

This is mostly incomplete self oriented desktop companion media centre
laptop incompetence all around.  Pretty lame.  Skip it, ask for dmesgs
on actively usable for development or alternatively a "communications"
devices from actual OpenBSD people, and not sales pitching affiliates.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[ropers]

Compiled for myself and the archives:

< Fanless OpenBSD-capable (probably) laptops >

Some of these specs/prices highly uncertain/unreliable/subject to change.
Interface abundance decreases from top to bottom.
Toughbooks don't seem to have built-in mics, which may be a plus for the
practical paranoid.
Some CF-30s have higher, some CF-19s have lower specs and prices -- very
variable.
Not sure if OpenBSD is installable on MacBook in particular.

Special thanks to bytovolcano and joekiser.

* Panasonic Toughbook CF-30: Core(2) Duo 1.6GHz, 1GB RAM, 80GB HDD, 13.3"
(1,024 x 768) 96 ppi :: used $180+
* Panasonic Toughbook CF-19: Core i5 2.7GHz, 4GB RAM 500GB HDD, 10.1" (1024
x 768) 127 ppi :: used $180-500?
* HP Stream: Celeron 2.16GHz, 2GB RAM, 32GB eMMC, 11.6" (1366 x 768) 135
ppi :: ~£179
* Asus ZenBook UX305F: Core M 800 MHz, 8GB RAM, 128GB SDD, 13.3" (1920 x
1080) 166 ppi :: ~£650
* Apple MacBook: Core m3-m5 1.1-1.2GHz, 8GB RAM, 256-512GB SDD, 12" (2304 x
1440) 226 ppi :: £1,049-£1,299

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[Jorge Castillo]

> Wrant. Really appreciate it.

Just ignore it, you can't let an isolated response taint your view of the
mailing list! I wish I could help you, but I don't know an answer to your
question.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[bytevolcano]

Thanks for all the private personal attacks and abusive messages such
as this one, Wrant. Really appreciate it.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 13:46:47 +0300
li...@wrant.com wrote:

> Shithead.  Get lost.  You're on auto-delete.  You don't exist.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[bytevolcano]

Allow me to explain that complex thought.

I didn't say that all machines are useless, nor did I say that any
machine is useless. One machine that is useful for Purpose #1 is
useless for Purpose #2; likewise, the machine that works well for
Purpose #2 is quite possibly useless for Purpose #1.

There may be a good replacement for a machine that can do Purpose #1,
but not one that can work for both #1 and #2.

What I was trying to say was that the term "desktop" in this context is
a very broad term; one person's idea of a desktop replacement is
going to be very different to another person's idea of a desktop
replacement.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:46:00 +0300
li...@wrant.com wrote:

> Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:07:24 +1000 
> > On the other hand, those types of machines are useless for high-end
> > video editing, which may be what a "desktop" is to you.  
> 
> That's one very complex thought, hold it, keep still, don't move an
> inch. No machine is useless, it's the operator that makes use of it,
> go figure.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[lists]

Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:07:24 +1000 
> On the other hand, those types of machines are useless for high-end
> video editing, which may be what a "desktop" is to you.

That's one very complex thought, hold it, keep still, don't move an inch.
No machine is useless, it's the operator that makes use of it, go figure.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[joekiser]

On Sat, Jun 11, 2016, at 13:03, ropers wrote:
> Does anybody here have a fanless laptop they run OpenBSD on?
> (Possibly even as their primary computer? How poor of a desktop
> replacement
> is it?)
> 
> If not, is there anything that comes close (and how much can I not afford
> it)?
> 

For desktop fanless, one can purchase a Broadwell Intel NUC and place it
in an aftermarket Akasa case. These are laptop-class processors in a
small desktop form factor. For more performance, there is the CompuLab
AirTop which I run exclusively with -stable, which is passively cooled
with a true desktop-class Haswell processor. Everything works, and the
machine is cool to the touch.

For fanless laptops, I have ordered a used HP Stream laptop for travel
which is completely fanless. I have not received it yet to try with
OpenBSD, but am working under the assumption that I would need a Wifi
dongle at the very least. The most powerful in the fanless laptop
category is probably the ASUS Zenbook UX305 or the new MacBook.

- joekiser

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[bytevolcano]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 03:21:40 +0300
li...@wrant.com wrote:

> Sat, 11 Jun 2016 20:03:37 +0200 ropers 
> > Does anybody here have a fanless laptop they run OpenBSD on?
> > (Possibly even as their primary computer? How poor of a desktop
> > replacement is it?)  
> 
> For a true no moving parts passive cooling system, you're out of luck
> with the desktop replacement idea.  Unless your desktop is running in
> the wireless network you connect to.  Basically, you're asking in the
> 10-20W form factor machine, which can function on convection with low
> CPU frequency even when it blocks due to failed maintenance: atom CPU.
> 

In a lot of ways though, that depends on what a "desktop" really is to
you. For instance, you can have a "desktop" in which all you do is
email, a bit of web browsing here and there, and office work. That
doesn't need much power, so those 10-20W machines are perfect for this.

On the other hand, those types of machines are useless for high-end
video editing, which may be what a "desktop" is to you.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[lists]

Sat, 11 Jun 2016 20:03:37 +0200 ropers 
> Does anybody here have a fanless laptop they run OpenBSD on?
> (Possibly even as their primary computer? How poor of a desktop replacement
> is it?)

For a true no moving parts passive cooling system, you're out of luck
with the desktop replacement idea.  Unless your desktop is running in
the wireless network you connect to.  Basically, you're asking in the
10-20W form factor machine, which can function on convection with low
CPU frequency even when it blocks due to failed maintenance: atom CPU.

Re: Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[bytevolcano]

I do have a Panasonic Toughbook CF-30 which doesn't have a fan, I have
successfully run -current on it.
If you want something more modern, but a bit smaller, the CF-19 may be
a good choice. It is a bit small though.

On Sat, 11 Jun 2016 20:03:37 +0200
ropers  wrote:

> Does anybody here have a fanless laptop they run OpenBSD on?
> (Possibly even as their primary computer? How poor of a desktop
> replacement is it?)
> 
> If not, is there anything that comes close (and how much can I not
> afford it)?

Is there such a thing as a fanless OpenBSD-capable laptop?

[ropers]

Does anybody here have a fanless laptop they run OpenBSD on?
(Possibly even as their primary computer? How poor of a desktop replacement
is it?)

If not, is there anything that comes close (and how much can I not afford
it)?