Has anyone heard of Cognitive Theoretic Model of the Universe, that is,
CTMU? Developed by Chris Langan (according to some, the smartest man in
America with regards to IQ), it features a concept called telic
recursion, which is quite similar to Quality in MOQ. CTMU features the
"supertautology"
Marsha:
He mentioned that, at least the men, the screen writers in Hollywood seem to be of the type who in
high school were the "guys that couldn't get the girl." Strange because they are all so
beautiful. From a different point-of-view I could identify with "guys that didn't get the
girl",
I think "holding someone responsible" is as much an illusion as free
will itself. Free will is not a necessary justification for punishment
of crime. We usually don't want crime, and punishment serves as
deterrent of crime. Also, the current kind of justice system seems to be
fairly accepted am
dmb said:
Yes, there is a big difference. I think that was Sam's point. We build tornado
shelters because tornados do damage, not because we hold them morally
responsible for their actions. Same with brain-diseased psychopaths. We lock
them up because they do damage, not because we hold them
According to MOQ, there's social quality, intellectual quality and other
forms of quality. Is the MOQ itself exclusively intellectual quality?
If yes, we don't know what social quality is. It's not described in SOM.
It has only been described in Pirsig's writing, but these descriptions
cannot
Thanks, Mark!
10.9.2011 20:24, 118 kirjoitti:
Hi T.
I will give this a shot.
MoQ provides the analogy of dividing our reality into different
apparitions of Quality. The intellectual is one of these. Within the
framework of discussion (which is social quality), MoQ is a form of
intellectual q
Marsha, Joseph, all,
Logically, if something is non-existent, it is predicate p(x) whose
extension is empty. Intuitively: it does not refer to anything. The
reference itself exists, but the thing it refers to does not.
DQ is undefinable, but undefinability is definable.
It cannot be proven o
Marsha, Joseph, all,
DQ modifies the structure of SQ, but doesn't RQ modify the content of SQ
without modifying the structure?
-Tuukka
22.12.2011 1:27, Joseph Maurer kirjoitti:
Hi MarshaV,
In mathematical parlance this is certainly true. Metaphysics, describing
levels in evolution, creat
hat is RQ? Fun? Maybe Random Quality follows evolution which is
indefinable? Not-DQ? Names?
On 12/21/11 3:45 PM, "Tuukka Virtaperko" wrote:
Marsha, Joseph, all,
DQ modifies the structure of SQ, but doesn't RQ modify the content of SQ
without modifying the structure?
-Tuukka
Marsha,
I agree. I'd say Pirsig's patterns are descriptive abstractions of
conventional-habitual experience.
I also think that conventional-habitual experience is the same as
romantic quality.
But because Pirsig's patterns are an analogy of conventional-habitual
experience, I think they do
Thank you for your kind words, Matt!
I have tried to send this e-mail twice, but it hasn't gone through, so
now I'm trying to split it into two parts.
Matt:
I think you're beyond me in systematic comprehension. You've made
a large start on a systematic metaphysics that incorporates much of
[continued from part 1]
Part 2 didn't go through before I removed a certain formatting...
Tuukka said earlier:
My first intuition is that stating Quality to be normative can only be
true if it means, that because everything is by definition Quality, the
property of being Quality is normativel
Matt,
I'd like to update you on my work. First of all, yes, I think you
introduced a fourth way of putting Cartesian dualism into recursive
patterns, and that is to make it span subjective quality and normative
quality. It would make some sense.
Secondly, I'm working on the model, in which e
[continued from part 1]
Tuukka said earlier:
My first intuition is that stating Quality to be normative can only be
true if it means, that because everything is by definition Quality, the
property of being Quality is normatively defined. This can be a valid
thing to say. But it can lead to con
Matt,
as a sidenote, at least I'm learning to use Illustrator here. I barely
knew what it was a month or two ago. Better take a little break from
that now, though.
Hmm. Being a "Pirsigian" is, in my opinion, impossible in any highly
coherent sense. Being a Pirsigian may imply some mystical un
Matt,
here's a graphical representation of how recursive patterns looks, when
the existence pattern emerges from the intellect (like you suggested),
and when the inorganic pattern emerges from the practical pattern.
-If two areas share a border, they are isomorphic.
-If they share an arrow-li
Matt,
Actually, I think the diagram has a mistake. Sorry...
-Tuukka
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Matt,
Matt said:
You're inundating me with material, so I should make you aware that
I'm under severe time and energy constraints. I'm a grad student in
a program that is not philosophy, so I can't spend very much time on
philosophical inquiry. I say this in order to set the context for my
ina
Hi Ian! Glad to see you participate.
Ian said:
Two questions, whilst you refine it ...
(1) What does the "D" signify ?
Tuukka:
The D signifies "descriptive". That is, any category with D in the name
is a descriptive abstraction of romantic quality. Romantic quality
therefore does not have
Matt, Ian
here is the diagram like it was meant to be done.
http://moq.fi/CM-2.png
-Tuukka
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Hello 188,
nice to meet you.
4.1.2012 2:58, 118 kirjoitti:
Is existence inherent? Hmmm... What the Buddhist would say is: NO!
They would treat everything like a rainbow. A rainbow does not exist
inherently because it requires causes. Therefore, there is nothing
one could point to as the actu
Sorry, I misspelled your name, 118. I hope that was not important.
-Tuukka
4.1.2012 5:11, Tuukka Virtaperko kirjoitti:
Hello 188,
nice to meet you.
4.1.2012 2:58, 118 kirjoitti:
Is existence inherent? Hmmm... What the Buddhist would say is: NO!
They would treat everything like a rainbow
All,
Let's suppose no philosophy besides the MOQ ever existed. What, then,
would it mean to state that everything is Quality?
If "being Quality" is the property of any thing, the following question
will arise: which one is more fundamental - that thing or its property
of being Quality?
Yet
ty theory because that would beg the question.
Thanks for your response!
-Tuukka
PS. If you want to read about my theory, see: http://www.moq.fi/?p=120
and http://www.moq.fi/?p=166 .
On 1/5/12, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
All,
Let's suppose no philosophy besides the MOQ ever existed. W
, Indefinable! Yes, No! DQ, SQ! 0,1! Tall, Short! Infinite,
Finite! Etc.!
It looks like division is well and prosperous!
On 1/5/12 1:55 AM, "Tuukka Virtaperko" wrote:
Let's suppose no philosophy besides the MOQ ever existed. What, then,
would it mean to state that everyt
Mark,
sorry,
turtles all the way is not a logical fallacy. It's just a computational
problem akin to being stuck to an endless loop, which repeats the same
procedure over and over again. But maybe if static quality is a
recursive structure, it isn't exactly a "qualities all the way down"
argum
Joseph,
I take it this is not biological evolution but evolution of everythingness.
-Tuukka
5.1.2012 23:39, Joseph Maurer kirjoitti:
Hi Tuukq and all,
Evolution!
On 1/5/12 1:25 PM, "Tuukka Virtaperko" wrote:
Joseph,
are you claiming that stating everything to be Quality
Mark,
Hi Tuukka,
Some little comments below to keep it lively.
On 1/5/12, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
Mark,
Mark said:
One way to approach Quality is through a structural paradigm as you
present. That is, Quality is an essence which comprises all in a
building block scenario. There are
rum. Evil Math!
The way in which MoQ is presented in Lila is a systems approach. I
would say that you can include DQ, you just have to figure out how.
Everything can be expressed with logical ideas, we just have to make
them up. We have only just started as the human race. There is
n
Matt,
FYI, I gave you credit at http://www.moq.fi/?p=120 for giving the
initial insight for cyclical morality.
-Tuukka
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Matt,
bottom line is - and I think everyone could as well realize it - is that
if the MOQ community never "fights" each other and only fights the rest
of the world, it apparently has no content besides that of opposing the
rest of the world. That's what I think of these past disagreements.
-T
Ian,
Ian said:
Don't know much of your background before MoQ.fi - so just a question ...
Your recursive loops - you are aware of Doug Hofstadter and "Strange
Loops" - level-shifting recursive loops ? (This is part of the reason
I liked where you are going ...) - the ability of recursion to crea
Marsha,
Marsha said:
Static patterns of value are processes, conditionally co-dependent, impermanent,
ever-changing and conceptualized, that pragmatically tend to persist and change within a
stable, predictable pattern. Within the MoQ, these patterns are categorized into a
four-level, evolut
exact, static quality (definable things) is relative to
undefinable things (including DQ but maybe something else, too). But if
other things than DQ are undefinable, it doesn't have any practical
implications for system building, because they can't be defined.
-Tuukka
6.1.201
Ian,
wait, that's the GEB dude! Yeah, I have it in the shelf, I read it 3½
years ago but didn't finish even though it was good. Maybe I try to
check there...
-Tuukka
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ht
loop could be impossible to formalize, because
you can't refer to +11 directly, only via D+11 and D-00.
-Tuukka
6.1.2012 13:17, Tuukka Virtaperko kirjoitti:
Ian,
Ian said:
Don't know much of your background before MoQ.fi - so just a question
...
Your recursive loops - y
u, please ignore it. I'll do the same with what you present.
Thanks.
Marsha
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 6, 2012, at 6:33 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
Marsha,
Marsha said:
Static patterns of value are processes, conditionally co-dependent, impermanent,
ever-changing and conceptualize
Ian,
*"statement OR sequence of statements"
a pretty unnecessary detail anyhow, I suppose, because any sequence of
statements could also be a statement. I guess.
-Tuukka
6.1.2012 13:56, Tuukka Virtaperko kirjoitti:
Ian,
yeah, so since Gödel realized you can have numbers st
Models of the
Fundamental Mechanisms of Thought."
(Amazingly geeky content as well as title, but it blew my mind. I
suspect its recursive patterns will appeal to you too.)
Ian
On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko
wrote:
Ian,
yeah, so since Gödel realized you can have numb
7;static patterns of value' is based on my understanding of
static quality and Buddhism's conventional (relative) truths. If it doesn't
work for you, please ignore it. I'll do the same with what you present.
Thanks.
Marsha
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 6, 2012, at 6:33 AM, Tuukka
Marsha,
Marsha said:
The subject line might have been misleading. I have not stated that the MoQ is
a form of Relativism. For me the MoQ is ontologically indeterminate and
epistemologically relativistic.
Tuukka:
Because of DQ, ontologically inteterminate is (according to me) correct.
Epi
Marsha,
Please let me add,
Tuukka:
Epistemological relativism is correct in the Western sense, if taken
into account that knowledge is not relative to other knowledge but to
ontology.
A logician would maybe find it helpful if I added:
Likewise, in logical systems, axioms are not "true" o
Mark,
Mark:
I have no intention of dismissing DL who is someone I admire. As I
see it, DL's intention is to provide an understanding of Tibetan
Buddhism to the West. One way of doing this is to show the
concordance of scientific thought with Buddhist thought. There is no
doubt that the older
Mark,
Mark:
This has nothing to do with phenomenology, although it can be used to
explain phenomenology. Quality generates experience.
Tuukka:
Okay, but the smell of food is something phenomenology would be about.
So how come it has "nothing" to do with phenomenology? Isn't that an
exagerratio
Joe,
Joe said:
I do not know what you mean by conventional truth in a university setting?
DQ/SQ as metaphysical reality accepts that that we experience and know the
indefinable and the definable. If the uni accepts SOM only, indefinable DQ
is not a teachable principle. I do not know how you a
Mark,
7.1.2012 2:21, 118 kirjoitti:
Hi tuukka
On 1/5/12, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
Mark,
Hmm, odd, this is cosmological discussion of inorganic quality. But
whatever. Randomness in quantum mechanics seems to facilitate the Big
Bang occuring at any moment, by matter simply teleporting into
x27; are based on my understanding of static quality and
Buddhism's conventional (relative) truths. If it doesn't work for you, please
ignore it. I'll do the same with what you present. Thanks.
Marsha
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 7, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
Marsh
Joe,
Joe:
The theory of evolution describes a metaphysical truth. I am unsure how you
perceive evolution!
Tuukka:
That's pretty wild, if you mean biological evolution. Do you?
Joe:
Aristotle described SOM (Subject/Object/Metaphysics) as the basis of
knowledge, metaphysics. SOM's theory of
MarshaV kirjoitti:
Tuukka,
You gotta find it much more difficult to explain your own system (chart and article),
than to get side-tracked focusing of Buddhism's "relative truths".
Marsha
On Jan 7, 2012, at 7:03 PM, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
Marsha,
you gotta have poor self-esteem
It would be rather simple to argue that the dynamic-static-division in
MOQ is some sort of an informal application of Gödel's incompleteness
theorems. According to these theorems, any sufficiently powerful logical
system cannot prove it's own completeness unless it is inconsistent. And
if a sys
I made a mistake:
And if a system cannot prove it's own completeness, there are
statements in the system which cannot be proven true or false.
I should have written: "And if a system is incomplete". Sorry.
-Tuukka
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rtant to keep in mind that our intellectual expression is a
creative process. We cannot find truths, only create them.
All in my opinion of course.
Cheers,
Mark
On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:26 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko
wrote:
It would be rather simple to argue that the dynamic-static-division in M
Hi, Mark,
you say:
"I have heard the analogy that we dip our ladle into the stream of
Quality and get experience (or something similar). This is a fine
analogy, except that it is also true that the ladle, the manner of
dipping, and the one doing the dipping is also part of Quality. In
terms of
Ok, so maybe I just didn't get you right on that one. Your talk of the
"map that contains itself" and stuff like that reminded myself of my own
project, which failed to achieve what it was supposed to achieve. If
that resemblance is not correct, you can tell me what your project is,
or skip the
You did not use the exact phrase "map that contains itself", I know. But:
"I have heard the analogy that we dip our ladle into the stream of
Quality and get experience (or something similar). This is a fine
analogy, except that it is also true that the ladle, the manner of
dipping, and the one d
ADRIE:
What are you talking about? A doctor prescribed me zolpidem for insomnia
many years ago. I can't duplicate your result of me "posting thingy's
around derived mainly from the erowid vaults". I don't think I've ever
posted anything there except that photo, which earned me a prize in an
E
David:
"Pirsig's pragmatic theory of truth"? What is this?
As for rational truth and empirical truth, the camps are not seriously
rival. If a sworn defendant of rational truth would rely only on
rational truth, well, as a child, he would probably not have even
learned to walk. And if a sworn
--
what i mean to say by it,--it begs the question,this phrase is very well
known here on the list,...its not the first time it is used
greetzz, Adrie
2011/3/10 Tuukka Virtaperko
ADRIE:
What are you talking about? A doctor prescribed me zolpidem for insomnia
many years ago. I can't dup
ADRIE:
This is a bizarre conversation.
First you tell everyone I've posted a pic on a drug related forum, but
then emphasize it's all right, but then add that the only psychoactive
you use is beer, which is legal. But participating into a photo
competition on a drug related forum does not imp
only file.
2011/3/11 Tuukka Virtaperko
ADRIE:
This is a bizarre conversation.
First you tell everyone I've posted a pic on a drug related forum,
but then
emphasize it's all right, but then add that the only psychoactive
you use is
beer, which is legal. But participating in
material?found some, will be in a text only file.
2011/3/11 Tuukka Virtaperko
ADRIE:
This is a bizarre conversation.
First you tell everyone I've posted a pic on a drug related forum,
but then
emphasize it's all right, but then add that the only psychoactive
you use is
beer, whic
Tuukka said to dmb:
...What even are these "camps" that, apparently, contain sworn defendants of
this kind? Who belong to these camps? I'm quite sure that no one in their right
mind does.
dmb says:
Pirsig and William James both invoke Coleridge to describe the rival camps. On
that account, eve
I still made a mistake. Gödel's (second) incompletess theorem actually
states that a theorem (which satisfies certain other criteria) includes
a statement of its own consistency if and only if it is inconsistent.
-Tuukka
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And if you got a desire to die, then... ?
13.3.2011 12:25, MarshaV kirjoitti:
Desires are just a way to ward off one's only certainty: death. Desires
project
existence into the future so one does not have to deal with one's fear of death.
___
Moq_Discuss mailing list
L
You might already know this, but the hemispheres are cross-linked, so
that the left one controls the right side of the body and the right one
controls the left side of the body. This implies that all left-handers,
including Pirsig, may be stronger on the hemisphere that is mentally
able to c
ause manipulation of the nails
is more delicate and important than the mere brute swinging of the hammer).
kirjoitti? They have them varmints in your parts?
John
On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 1:00 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko<
m...@tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote:
You might already know this, but the he
Ham:
You seem to be missing a point that's related to intensions and
extensions. Let's take the concept of squares as an example. The
intension of this object is the definition of squares, ie. "all numbers
that equal an integer multiplied by itself". The extension of this
object is "1,4,9,16,
kirjoitti:
Greetings, Tuukka --
Welcome to the forum.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 4:04 PM, "Tuukka Virtaperko"
wrote:
Ham:
You seem to be missing a point that's related to intensions and
extensions. Let's take the concept of squares as an example. The
intension of this obj
John:
For some people, peace of mind is easy. For others its very hard. But one
thing for sure, when you've got it, you've got it and nobody can gainsay.
Inorganic perfection: Light
Biological perfection: Procreation
Social perfection: Celebrity
Intellectual perfection: Enlightenment
I st
contingent on innumerable causes and
conditions. Knowledge, whether called 'static patterns of value' or
'conventional truths' are relative. We learn more and go farther by accepting
that, than from running from and denying it.
If your interests are elsewhere, by all means: Go
Marsha,
8.1.2012 14:34, MarshaV kirjoitti:
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 8, 2012, at 6:51 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
Marsha,
but that is one of my interests. Knowledge is relative in the Buddhist sense. I'm just concerned of a small
technicality, which may have big consequences.
erested in discussing it.
Marsha
On Jan 8, 2012, at 8:48 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
Marsha,
8.1.2012 14:34, MarshaV kirjoitti:
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 8, 2012, at 6:51 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko
wrote:
Marsha,
but that is one of my interests. Knowledge is relative in the Buddhist sense
Marsha,
I added: "For relativism in Buddhism, see Two truths doctrine." to the
hatnote of the Wikipedia article on relativism. Hope this helps
Tuukka
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e read articles, papers and books on the the two-truths.
Marsha
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 8, 2012, at 9:39 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
Marsha,
I added: "For relativism in Buddhism, see Two truths doctrine." to the hatnote
of the Wikipedia article on relativism. Hope this he
where all this began. Now, when Tim invited me to LS, I wasn't
like "Ohh Gooddd this is such an insignificant favor they are doing
to me. "
-Tuukka
8.1.2012 16:59, Tuukka Virtaperko kirjoitti:
Marsha,
guess you're not very serious about succeeding when you st
id that small thing because of you.
-Tuukka
8.1.2012 17:10, Tuukka Virtaperko kirjoitti:
Marsha,
are you seriously gonna behave like you're entitled to have everyone
helping you and can take such things for granted? Matt and Mark helped
me just by saying what they think. You helped me
Joe,
Joe:
I am approaching my 80th birthday (lame-brained), and there is no doubt the
way I express concepts is all over the place.
Tuukka:
At least you aren't going to school in the morning like my grandfather,
who did that in his seventies. I'm happy my dad likes crosswords because
doing
David, Marsha,
David:
> Because Dynamic Quality isn't anything. See?
That statement doesn't mean anything.
Marsha:
> How can you prove this? What are you saying here?
Good question.
> Sometimes trying to understand what someone else is saying can be
very difficult, particularly when a non-
David,
I do believe you have taken a very ambitious approach and I should
compliment you. If you actually have some sort of logical formulae, you
are far beyond where many people can ever go, and I couldn't be as far
as you are without the help of a certain friend.
-Tuukka
Moq_Discuss mailin
David, Marsha
Pirsig:
" We must all use terms as they are described in the dictionary or we lose the
ability to communicate with each other." - Lila's Child.
Tuukka:
I don't think that's intended to be a philosophical statement.
Marsha:
Please provide the url for your definition. I'd
Mark, all,
Hi Joe,
In my opinion, DQ/sq is a conceptualization of existence. The result
of their interaction results in the appearance of levels. The method
which we describe such appearance is through the concept of evolution
(in that I agree with you). As such, this evolution is demarkated
David,
Marsha is using the word "relative" in the Buddhist sense. Are you aware
of that, and what it means?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine
Wikipedia will be offline in four hours because some politicians are
trying to ruin our technological future with SOPA and PIPA.
Yo
Do you realize this stuff is happening in your home country?
http://vimeo.com/31100268
-Tuukka
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You are asking.
The law will make State able to close YouTube, Facebook, Wikipedia and
others at will.
Never.
-Tuukka
19.1.2012 5:02, Ian Glendinning kirjoitti:
As a matter of interest Tuukka, what is your view of SOPA / PIPA ?
Ian
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko
Horse,
Why do we want (or need) to move to an information based economy?!? Is
this a real need or is it a created need - i.e. created by those that
stand to profit by it to the detriment of those that don't.
Tuukka:
Obviously, in the values of economy, it is better to have more money
inste
Mark, Horse
Mark to Horse:
I understand your position as a musician.
Tuukka:
I'm also an artist. But I favor basic income guarantee with the absence of
welfare traps. This entails that if a person, for example, needs a guitar and a
few gadgets, he can go work into a factory for a few mon
Mark,
Hi Tuukka,
It is difficult for me to see your position in this debate as you
present both sides in a confusing way. In this country, we have
flourished under the sense of personal responsibility and freedom to
create, where such creation brings personal rewards. This is what, I
believe,
All,
I mean, seriously, do you think I could have worked six years on the MOQ
with _grant_ money? Who the hell would give such a grant? :D
-Tuukka
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Carl:
Carl:
In Ireland, if a poet manages to get a book published, the govt. will
provide a stipend so they can write full-time. Here, poetry is the
poorest paid genre there is. It's a different attitude. Does Finland
provide a stipend for artists? I know in some countries in Africa,
when
Carl,
sorry, some things were wrongly expressed.
Tuukka:
> I'm primarily a cartoonist who seems to be considered somehow elite
by some...
That is, if someone knows me because of my creative works, they most
probably know me as a cartoonist. I did not make a statement on how I
perceive myself
Carl,
in addition, I have already published a work, and it's on sale. But it's
in Finnish. And I didn't self-publish that one. Well, I self-published
an edition of 100 books, but then a publisher got interested and made an
edition of 500 books. This all happened last year.
-Tuukka
Moq_Discuss
Carl,
Carl:
All of the stuff I've published was in magazines, which are good for a
month and then go away. I did a couple of video scripts that were
produced, but they were essentially industrial, and therefore an
exercise in frustration and excellent lessons in dealing with stuff I
don't wa
Carl,
www.insaneartist.net
Well, the domain is down. It didn't use to be. I hope the owner didn't die.
The domain is actually free again! Nobody owns it. Guess I could
register it for the sake of nostalgy, but I don't really want to pay 29€
a year for nostalgy value when I'd rather need 40€ t
Mark,
Hi Tuukka,
Well that is an interesting proposition. Is this only for "Artists".
How is an "Artist" defined in Finland? What about the rest of the
people who do not have artistic talents? Only work when you want to.
Doesn't this affect production in a factory? Can you choose anywhere
wh
Mark,
correction. Saami is a recognized regional language, not an official
language.
Mark:
Do you work for free then? Or do you actually have to pay for things?
Is there a profit system in Finland, or is everything based on
goodwill? How do you define your sustenance. Is there a governmen
Mark,
I didn't say artists shouldn't get any money. Artists are allowed to
capitalize like others. I don't require everyone to be like me. I don't
think its virtuous to be poor, so grow some self-esteem. Just because
you have money doesn't mean everyone either befriends you because of the
mone
Mark,
Hey yo, Mr. Independence from guv't, why don't you preach your gospel to
these people?
http://giveneyestosee.com/blog/2011/10/i-am-obamacare/
http://prdjournal.tumblr.com/post/12165789160/i-am-an-american-i-pay-taxes-i-worked-i-was
-Tuukka
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Mark,
and one more thing. Charity, you say?
-Tuukka
22.1.2012 17:31, Tuukka Virtaperko kirjoitti:
Mark,
Hey yo, Mr. Independence from guv't, why don't you preach your gospel
to these people?
http://giveneyestosee.com/blog/2011/10/i-am-obamacare/
http://prdjournal.tumbl
Mark,
If you would like to donate something to me, you can go to the following
address:
http://frontpage.tuukkavirtaperko.net/?page_id=12
Kind regards,
Tuukka
Moq_Discuss mailing list
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spirite that is gone from the big cities, which are dependent on
government hand outs.
However I always consider giving more abroad to kind people in need.
Mark
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko
wrote:
Mark,
If you would like to donate something to me, you can go to the foll
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