RE: [MSX] Colour loss
Hi Go back from the analog composite output and see where there is a diffence. It might be as simple as changing a resistor to get a higher color (burst) level. Which resisto have to be changed? Can it be bridged for testing purposes? Thanks JP --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.509 / Virus Database: 306 - Release Date: 12/08/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
Hi, I swapped the 9938 back and all the colours is fine again Composit and RGB? It looks like the composit signal is in ntsc and that you are using a tv that doesn't support ntsc via composit. Vincent ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
Hi, As far as I know, No composite signal supported by V9958... Jun - Original Message - From: JP Grobler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: msx [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 1:33 PM Subject: [MSX] Colour loss Hi I replaced my 9938 with a 9958 in my mns8250 Now I have colour on RGB, but gray picture on composit Any ideas why? JP --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: Fw: [MSX] Colour loss
HI The modifications is fine. Pin 1,4,27 connected GND Pin 21 and 58 connected +5V JP - Original Message - From: Saku Taipale [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: msx [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 7:58 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [MSX] Colour loss On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, JP Grobler wrote: I swapped the 9938 back and all the colours is fine again Composit and RGB is fine! What is wrong with my 9958? Hmm, iirc you need to do few modifications when using v9958. I don't recall now what wires do you need to add, but maybe Hans Otten's pages has the answer... Greetings: Saku Taipale, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
Hi If I run a basic program chancing the background border colours in screen 2 I can see the different colours but they are not correct! In screen0 the colours are basicaly greyscale, I see some red and yellow. JP - Original Message - From: Vincent van Dam [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [MSX] Colour loss Hi, I swapped the 9938 back and all the colours is fine again Composit and RGB? It looks like the composit signal is in ntsc and that you are using a tv that doesn't support ntsc via composit. Vincent ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
Jun Sung Kim (???) wrote: Hi, As far as I know, No composite signal supported by V9958... Indeed. The v9958 outputs an RGB signal, and that signal is used to construct the composite video signal, but the v9938/58 doesn't do this by itself, there is seperate hardware for that. At least, I believe that is the common practice, but the v9938/58 also outputs a composite signal, which is usually not used but maybe your MSX does... Although, I see it's an 8250 you're talking about, which isn't exactly an obscure type of MSX computer... Now, the problem suggests the color signal is lost with composite video. This occurs most commonly when connecting an NTSC output to a device expecting a PAL input, or vice versa. So uh, are you sure your MSX isn't running an 60Hz mode (VDP(10)=0)? It always shows grey on composite video in NTSC mode because the color signals of PAL and NTSC aren't compatible. However in PAL mode (VDP(10)=2) there should be no problem with getting the color signal through. Even if the VDP is connected directly to the composite video output, at 50Hz it *should* output a PAL signal, I actually don't see how displaying a 50hz signal on NTSC is possible. So if the signal doesn't get through correctly in both modes, I don't think it is a PAL vs. NTSC problem. Now what comes to mind is that there are different versions of PAL (like I believe PAL-M etc), but then again, it makes no sense if the v9938 had worked before. By the way, I have never experienced this problem myself, but then again, I never connected my MSX through composite video since I've got a v9958 installed :). There are multiple instructions on how to wire a v9958. In my own MSX, the wires are done pretty cleverly, so that the sockets both supports a v9958 and a v9938, by wiring the different input pins to differing output pins. However, if you simply connect them to +5v and GND, it is not interchangeable. And in that case it is logical the v9938 and v9958 behave differently, because the pin layout is different and one will be getting incorrect signals. So my guess is that there's something wrong with the wiring, disrupting the color signal on the composite output. I'd suggest to try another wiring method. ~Grauw --- Ushiko-san! Kimi wa doushite, Ushiko-san nan da!! ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
Laurens Holst wrote: Jun Sung Kim (???) wrote: Hi, As far as I know, No composite signal supported by V9958... Indeed. The v9958 outputs an RGB signal, and that signal is used to construct the composite video signal, but the v9938/58 doesn't do this by itself, there is seperate hardware for that. At least, I believe that is the common practice, but the v9938/58 also outputs a composite signal, which is usually not used but maybe your MSX does... Although, I see it's an 8250 you're talking about, which isn't exactly an obscure type of MSX computer... Ah, I just looked into it a little, the composite output signal on the v9958 is not present anymore at all. So that won't be the cause of the problem, since if it were taking the signal from the VDP it would show a black screen instead of only missing colors (the signal used to be on pin 21 by the way, so maybe there's a link after all). As I said, I think the wiring is wrong. Although you're following Hans Oranje's instructions (http://www.hansoranje.demon.nl/downloads/v9958inNMS8250.pdf), so those should be right... weird. Maybe you should pull pins 4, 27 and 21 out of their sockets? There's also this description: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/7278/MSXKIT/NMS8245/PLUS.HTM It is about the 8245 but I don't see why it shouldn't also apply to the 8250. Although I must say I personally have more confidence in Hans Oranje's description. I don't know the exact details of how it is done inside my MSX. I'll have to open it up and take a look someday. ~Grauw --- Ushiko-san! Kimi wa doushite, Ushiko-san nan da!! ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
Hi I removed pins 4,21, 27 from the socket The colour problem remains I tried vdp(10)=2 and vdp (10)=2 no visible difference I did the wiring of pins1,4,21 58,21 on the 9958 itself? Does anybody have a 9958 running through composit signal? I have not tested the RFsignal yet, my TV is dead. JP --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
I tried vdp(10)=2 and vdp (10)=2 no visible difference Obviously not :) since they're the same ^_^. Anyways I guess you mean =0 and =2... Weird. I think there is going something wrong in the RGB - composite video conversion, but since it does not take the VDP's composite video signal (the v9958 doesn't have one, after all), I don't understand why. It must be using more than only the RGB signal I guess... Maybe it uses the color burst pins? Those were removed aswell. But I don't think those were used (if the composite isn't, why would they be?). Well, that's easy enough to find out. Lemme see... (testing on our vg8235)... If the color burst pins were used, changing the values of the color burst registers VDP(21), VDP(22) and VDP(23) should make a difference... and it doesn't. Maybe if I take a look a which other pins have changed between the v9938 and the v9958 I could get a clue about why it's doing this... Does anybody have a 9958 running through composit signal? I just tested it on my NMS8245: you are right. The image is remaining grey on my computer aswell. I wonder what's going on... It don't think the screen flickered when switching frequencies either. I don't know if it's supposed to do that, but... it seems to me it should. Maybe someone with a little more knowledge about this matter. I'll see if I can ask Hans Oranje on the Bussum fair, if I don't forget and if he's coming. ~Grauw --- Ushiko-san! Kimi wa doushite, Ushiko-san nan da!! ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
Op vrijdag 25 juli 2003 19:40, schreef JP Grobler: Hi I removed pins 4,21, 27 from the socket The colour problem remains Hi, I have checked the datasheet of the NMS8250, and it show that the NMS8250 computer has it's own PAL encoding unit. It does not use the composite output of the VDP. Only following four signals are used: csync (is the composite sync signal; hsync and vsync are combined) red green blue The four signals go directly to the scart (although through a small amplifier circuit) and they go to the pal encoder. The output signal of the pal encoder goes to the composite video plug and to the RF modulator (for the antenna signal). Both v9938 and v9958 have the four above mentioned signals. So you would expect them to be the same. However, I have done some search on the internet (via google) and found that the exact timing of hsync (the horizontal synchronization) slightly differs between pal and ntsc. I know (from the v9938 databook) that the v9938 comes in three versions. I have always wondered about the difference. I suspect now that at least one of those versions uses the pal hsync timing and that at least one of the others will use the ntsc hsync timing. In which case it is plausible that the nms8250 (and also other models for the dutch market) will contain the version with the pal hsync timing. My suspicion is now that the pal encoder in the nms8250 will get confused by the csync signal of the v9958, since that one will contain the ntsc hsync timing. This could explain the color loss on the composite signal. Is there any ntsc/pal/video specialist who can confirm the above theory? Because I'm not totally sure. Kind regards, Alex Wulms ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Alex Wulms wrote: However, I have done some search on the internet (via google) and found that the exact timing of hsync (the horizontal synchronization) slightly differs between pal and ntsc. I know (from the v9938 databook) that the v9938 comes in three versions. I have always wondered about the difference. I suspect now Yes, it differs, the fact is that there is lot more differencies in pal and ntsc system than it's usually thought. First is the 50 and 60Hz, that can be changed easily in MSX. Then the colour system is actually different also (this shouldn't cause trouble in RGB system however). And last one is that there are more lines drawn in PAL than in NTSC. NTSC uses 525 lines (and 30 FPS) against PAL 625 lines (and 25 FPS). Also colour signal frequency is different between these systems... that at least one of those versions uses the pal hsync timing and that at least one of the others will use the ntsc hsync timing. In which case it is plausible that the nms8250 (and also other models for the dutch market) will contain the version with the pal hsync timing. My suspicion is now that the pal encoder in the nms8250 will get confused by the csync signal of the v9958, since that one will contain the ntsc hsync timing. This could explain the color loss on the composite signal. Is there any ntsc/pal/video specialist who can confirm the above theory? Because I'm not totally sure. Sounds interesting theory, but I wont confirm that. It's far possible but I would need to get oscilloscope for checking out what happens there actually :-) Yeah, I have V9958 and NMS8280 already... Greetings: Saku Taipale, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
Hi colourless people, you could try the following two things: 1. The V9958 requires a *clean* 5V on pin 21 to power the video outputs; If there is noise on this 5V, then this will result in noise on your video signals and degrades image quality. On the 5V which is used to power all digital circuits in the MSX there is a lot of noise, especially where the 5V enters a large digital chip like the V9958! So it is not a good idea, like described in the patch of Hans Oranje, to connect pin 21 with pin 58 (digital supply of V9958). It might be better to connect pin 21 to somewhere else in the MSX where you have 5V (with less noise). Like in the other patch that Laurens mentioned (for the 8245). Here they get the 5V from solderhole 26. Probably in the 8245 there is 5V here. This is not the case for the 825x: here there is a 10k pullup resistor to 5V (R166). So you might try connecting to the side of the resistor where the 5V is (and remove the 10k resistor because now the V9958 is outputting a wait signal on pin 26). The noise can also be seriously reduced by putting a decoupling capacitor (e.g. 100nF) between pin 21 and pin 20 (Analog GND). Keep the length of the leads of this capacitor as short as possible (5mm). 2. for a NMS82xx the composite video signal is generated with a MC1377 chip. It uses the RGB info from the VDP, but also the Csync signal. Perhaps the timing for one of those signals has changed a little bit in the V9958. If this is the case, then the timing when the colour burst should happen in the cvbs signal, will also be shifted (and wrong). You can adjust this by adjusting the variable resistor VR301. It is located on the separate video board of the NMS825x next to the big black MC1377 chip. I don't know if it will help, but at least it is worth a try. Best regards, Jon ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
Alex Wulms wrote: I know (from the v9938 databook) that the v9938 comes in three versions. I have always wondered about the difference. see page 123 of the V9938 databook: the difference is in the timing of the VRAM interface. So this won't be the problem... Bye, jon ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
A stupid question maybe: if you have a rgb monitor, why looking at the composite? I do not usually use the composit, RGB is much better. I just got a fright when I replaced the chips and the signal was gone! Now I am puzzled. JP --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
Does anybody have a 9958 running through composit signal? I just tested it on my NMS8245: you are right. The image is remaining grey on my computer aswell. I wonder what's going on... It don't think the screen flickered when switching frequencies either. I don't know if it's supposed to do that, but... it seems to me it should. Glad to hear my msx is not on the blink. JP --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
2. for a NMS82xx the composite video signal is generated with a MC1377 chip. It uses the RGB info from the VDP, but also the Csync signal. Perhaps the timing for one of those signals has changed a little bit in the V9958. If this is the case, then the timing when the colour burst should happen in the cvbs signal, will also be shifted (and wrong). You can adjust this by adjusting the variable resistor VR301. It is located on the separate video board of the NMS825x next to the big black MC1377 chip. Tried it. I get color ,4,4 (startup) to go greenish or yellowish, When this happens Defnite bands of blue, yello red can be seen as well. When the background colour is changed, it still shows the correct colour for a sec then falls back, maybe the signal is weak. I'll try to clean the power supply. JP --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
[MSX] Colour loss
Hi I replaced my 9938 with a 9958 in my mns8250 Now I have colour on RGB, but gray picture on composit Any ideas why? JP --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: [MSX] Colour loss
I swapped the 9938 back and all the colours is fine again Composit and RGB? What is wrong with my 9958? JP - Original Message - From: JP Grobler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: msx [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 6:33 AM Subject: [MSX] Colour loss Hi I replaced my 9938 with a 9958 in my mns8250 Now I have colour on RGB, but gray picture on composit Any ideas why? JP --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Fw: [MSX] Colour loss
I swapped the 9938 back and all the colours is fine again Composit and RGB is fine! What is wrong with my 9958? JP - Original Message - From: JP Grobler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: msx [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 6:33 AM Subject: [MSX] Colour loss Hi I replaced my 9938 with a 9958 in my mns8250 Now I have colour on RGB, but gray picture on composit Any ideas why? JP --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003 ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
Re: Fw: [MSX] Colour loss
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, JP Grobler wrote: I swapped the 9938 back and all the colours is fine again Composit and RGB is fine! What is wrong with my 9958? Hmm, iirc you need to do few modifications when using v9958. I don't recall now what wires do you need to add, but maybe Hans Otten's pages has the answer... Greetings: Saku Taipale, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ MSX mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Info page: http://lists.stack.nl/mailman/listinfo/msx
