Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
On 27/04/2015 14:03, monxton wrote: I'm late to the party as usual, but on the subject of Simon Rattle, I did change his name a while back to eliminate the title from his primary artist name, on the grounds that he didn't use it professionally. I'm not sure if I realised at the time that an earlier edit by @mll had been downvoted. See http://musicbrainz.org/search/edits?auto_edit_filter=order=descnegation=0combinator=andconditions.0.field=artistconditions.0.operator=%3Dconditions.0.name=Simon+Rattleconditions.0.args.0=236231conditions.0.user_id=360197conditions.1.field=typeconditions.1.operator=%3Dconditions.1.args=2 Oh, I read that wrong :-/ The edit succeeded and was then reverted without comment .. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
On 21/03/2015 07:55, David Gasaway wrote: On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 6:55 PM, bflaminio bflaminio-re5jqeeqqe8avxtiumw...@public.gmane.org wrote: I agree with Trevor Downs. If an artist makes a point to include the title, and if the title is used on cover art, liner notes, and other artifacts of music production; then it's reasonable to include the title in the artist name. Here is a release of mine that has only Simon Rattle on the cover, but the current artist name is Sir Simon Rattle. http://musicbrainz.org/release/18b06ece-4115-40ac-9fc7-41ff6953a1cb/cover-art Either way we do it, these inconsistencies are going to happen. I can't think of a reason why it's better to have this in the artist name than in the ACs for the releases where it's used. Is it an offical part of the person's legal name or something like that? These can be decided on a case-by-case basis. I'd rather see it codified, whichever way the decision goes. I'm late to the party as usual, but on the subject of Simon Rattle, I did change his name a while back to eliminate the title from his primary artist name, on the grounds that he didn't use it professionally. I'm not sure if I realised at the time that an earlier edit by @mll had been downvoted. See http://musicbrainz.org/search/edits?auto_edit_filter=order=descnegation=0combinator=andconditions.0.field=artistconditions.0.operator=%3Dconditions.0.name=Simon+Rattleconditions.0.args.0=236231conditions.0.user_id=360197conditions.1.field=typeconditions.1.operator=%3Dconditions.1.args=2 Anyway, I agree that the choice of primary artist name can only be done on a case-by-case basis. David Gasaway, if there are others where you think the primary artist name is not the best choice, go ahead and submit an artist edit to change it, and let the voters decide. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
What is problematic for me is that the artist name will change after the title is bestowed. Then I end up with tags with distinct values. YMMV. Well, right. The same thing might happen if e.g. an artist marries. Won't all minor name variations create the same problem? So, I'm not saying that it's a non-issue. I'm merely saying that it doesn't seem like a special case. I agree. The primary artist name in MBz does not at all have to be a legal name, but is and should continue to be how the person usually is named (as artist), which may be with different kinds of titles, nicknames, etc. For example royalty will include royal titles. As a Swede I'm thinking of composer Prins Gustaf (Prince Gustav of Sweden and Norway). ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
Den 21-03-2015 kl. 22:52 skrev David Gasaway: On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Alexander VanValin caller...@gmail.com wrote: I should add, my real question is what makes honorific titles a special case? What is problematic for me is that the artist name will change after the title is bestowed. Then I end up with tags with distinct values. YMMV. https://musicbrainz.org/artist/51823891-6035-4d6c-a007-b70a86747023/aliases I say we keep things as they are. Some people are most known with Sir or whatever, some people are not. Artist names can change for a multitude of reasons, getting knighted is but one and I see no reason to special case this over others. FWIW, MusicBrainz Picard and beets are both able to normalise artist names into whatever the current name in MB is, as well as being able to use a locale specific alias if that is wanted. Either way, external program behaviour should not dictate how we store data. -- Namasté, Frederik “Freso” S. Olesen http://freso.dk/ MB: https://musicbrainz.org/user/Freso Wiki: https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Freso signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 6:55 PM, bflaminio bflami...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with Trevor Downs. If an artist makes a point to include the title, and if the title is used on cover art, liner notes, and other artifacts of music production; then it's reasonable to include the title in the artist name. Here is a release of mine that has only Simon Rattle on the cover, but the current artist name is Sir Simon Rattle. http://musicbrainz.org/release/18b06ece-4115-40ac-9fc7-41ff6953a1cb/cover-art Either way we do it, these inconsistencies are going to happen. I can't think of a reason why it's better to have this in the artist name than in the ACs for the releases where it's used. Is it an offical part of the person's legal name or something like that? These can be decided on a case-by-case basis. I'd rather see it codified, whichever way the decision goes. -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:26 PM, SwissChris swissch...@gmail.com wrote: http://musicbrainz.org/edit/11528485 OK, so there's an example of where the title is not in the name even though it appears on artwork, including this one: http://musicbrainz.org/release/0b4fbcc2-18a3-47f5-83a7-c198ed36cb98 Unfortunately, that particular edit pre-dates ACs, so anybody that voted on/debated that edit may have differing viewpoints on the question today. -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
Does this really need a Style change? from style/artist#name In most cases, it is the name as found on releases. If an artist uses multiple names, see the guideline for artists using multiple names From there, legal name alias and ACs handle every case I can think of. Which form of the name to use for the artist-name field seems very case-by-case. Is the honorific used in credits? How often? --- That said, it would be nice to update style/artist/with_multiple_names a bit. Some of it sounds very pre-NGS. On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 3:20 PM, David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org wrote: Hi, I'd like to propose that we remove honorary titles from artist names, i.e., Sir Thomas Beecham [1] should be simply Thomas Beecham. They are not really part of the artists' names, and should not apply to times before the titles were bestowed. ACs can be used to indicate the title if they are featured on a release, of course. I'd like to see this added to Style/Artist. [1] http://musicbrainz.org/artist/0e6ccc63-41cb-4903-8b7d-60846aca6d58 ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
I should add, my real question is what makes honorific titles a special case? In my mind, the artist-name is what the artist is commonly called. That could include nicknames, jr/sr/etc, military rank (real or not) or whatever. On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Alexander VanValin caller...@gmail.com wrote: Does this really need a Style change? from style/artist#name In most cases, it is the name as found on releases. If an artist uses multiple names, see the guideline for artists using multiple names From there, legal name alias and ACs handle every case I can think of. Which form of the name to use for the artist-name field seems very case-by-case. Is the honorific used in credits? How often? --- That said, it would be nice to update style/artist/with_multiple_names a bit. Some of it sounds very pre-NGS. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Alexander VanValin caller...@gmail.com wrote: I should add, my real question is what makes honorific titles a special case? What is problematic for me is that the artist name will change after the title is bestowed. Then I end up with tags with distinct values. YMMV. -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Alexander VanValin caller...@gmail.com wrote: Well, right. The same thing might happen if e.g. an artist marries. Won't all minor name variations create the same problem? So, I'm not saying that it's a non-issue. I'm merely saying that it doesn't seem like a special case. There are different solutions to these problems, like creating a separate performance name that relates to a legal name. Or using Artist Credits to record name variations that appear on physical releases. I'm proposing the latter. It's not really that special. -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-487 On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: Hi! It's fine to have discussion here, but please also add a style ticket :) You know, I started to create a ticket, but when none of the available Components fit what I was proposing, I wasn't sure anymore if that was the right thing to do. :) http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-487 I personally don't mind it either way to have it or not as part of the name. One doubt I have is whether you see this also affecting other names like X, King of Y or Alfred, Lord Tennyson, or it's only Sir/Dame that you have in mind. Well, Sir was the only example that came to mind, and probably the only I've seen in use at MusicBrainz, but your other examples would probably also fit my criteria. -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
I agree with Trevor Downs. If an artist makes a point to include the title, and if the title is used on cover art, liner notes, and other artifacts of music production; then it's reasonable to include the title in the artist name. So, including the Sir for Sir Thomas Beecham seems appropriate, but I wouldn't suggest Sir Paul McCartney be used. These can be decided on a case-by-case basis. -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Remove-honorary-titles-tp4672440p4672446.html Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
http://musicbrainz.org/edit/11528485 On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 2:55 AM, bflaminio bflami...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with Trevor Downs. If an artist makes a point to include the title, and if the title is used on cover art, liner notes, and other artifacts of music production; then it's reasonable to include the title in the artist name. So, including the Sir for Sir Thomas Beecham seems appropriate, but I wouldn't suggest Sir Paul McCartney be used. These can be decided on a case-by-case basis. -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Remove-honorary-titles-tp4672440p4672446.html Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
Hi! It's fine to have discussion here, but please also add a style ticket :) I personally don't mind it either way to have it or not as part of the name. One doubt I have is whether you see this also affecting other names like X, King of Y or Alfred, Lord Tennyson, or it's only Sir/Dame that you have in mind. On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 12:20 AM, David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org wrote: Hi, I'd like to propose that we remove honorary titles from artist names, i.e., Sir Thomas Beecham [1] should be simply Thomas Beecham. They are not really part of the artists' names, and should not apply to times before the titles were bestowed. ACs can be used to indicate the title if they are featured on a release, of course. I'd like to see this added to Style/Artist. [1] http://musicbrainz.org/artist/0e6ccc63-41cb-4903-8b7d-60846aca6d58 -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Remove honorary titles
I'm generally in favor of a title only if a person makes it a point to use it. Trevor Downs Sent from my iPhone On Mar 20, 2015, at 3:26 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: Hi! It's fine to have discussion here, but please also add a style ticket :) I personally don't mind it either way to have it or not as part of the name. One doubt I have is whether you see this also affecting other names like X, King of Y or Alfred, Lord Tennyson, or it's only Sir/Dame that you have in mind. On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 12:20 AM, David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org wrote: Hi, I'd like to propose that we remove honorary titles from artist names, i.e., Sir Thomas Beecham [1] should be simply Thomas Beecham. They are not really part of the artists' names, and should not apply to times before the titles were bestowed. ACs can be used to indicate the title if they are featured on a release, of course. I'd like to see this added to Style/Artist. [1] http://musicbrainz.org/artist/0e6ccc63-41cb-4903-8b7d-60846aca6d58 -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
