Re: Is mutt really handicapped? - vim :split
* Michael P. Soulier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [020307 21:28]: On 07/03/02 Heiko Heil did speaketh: I use the splitting-feature of vim (:help sp). How do you use it to read mail in a folder though? Do you open the mbox file? $ vim ~/Mail/michael.soulier :split See? ;-) Sven -- Sven Guckes [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- VINE author: Ron Aaron [EMAIL PROTECTED] VINE Vim Integrated News and Email www.mossbayeng.com/~ron/vim/vine.html VINE is a set of perl and vim scripts which run with the editor 'vim', and make it possible to do all ones' email, USENET news, and calendaring.
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Simon White wrote: I sure don't see them compiling Mutt using a cygwin environment or anything, but I have switched /some/ to PC-PINE, that's about as far as I'll get. For the record, PC-PINE does not use the Unix mbox format by default (making it incompatible with Unix pine!) -- it uses a proprietary binary format called c-client MBX. The developers claim that MBX uses resources more efficiently and can better handle multiple-user access, but of course you cannot open or process these files with grep, awk, or vi. PC-PINE can read and write mbox format, but there is no way to set this as the default; rather, you have to type something like driver.unix/c:/full/pathname/to/mbox every time you create a new mailbox. If PC-PINE had handled this right I never would have made the leap to mutt. Tom Dr. Thomas Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Birlinghoven Library, Fraunhofer-Gesellschaft mobile +49-171-408-5784 Institutszentrum Schloss Birlinghoven work +49-30-8109-9027 53754 Sankt Augustin, Germany fax +49-2241-14-2619
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On 07-Mar-02 at 16:26, Michael P. Soulier's inspired musing was thus : Who uses the arrow keys?? hjkl man... As someone who can actually touch type and without looking at the keys even, it has always seemed stupid for vi to use hjkl, since this forces my hand out of the home position, where my fingers will be on jkl; I learned to touch type by quite literally forcing myself. I have used a PC keyboard for 16 years and one day decided it was stupid to be in front of a keyboard all day and not to try to type properly. Sure, it's slower to begin with, but now I can type much faster. -- |-Simon White # GIMPS current unit progress: 31.22% #-| |-Internet Services Manager # http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm #-| |-MTDS S.A. 14, rue 16 novembre:-Pd-; tel: +212.3.737.4861-| |-Rabat, Kingdom of Morocco Cyberneckin' fax: +212.3.737.4863-|
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 09:01:09AM -0500, Ben Logan wrote: Yes, it doesn't have nice and point-and-clicky interface, but I don't like them, anyway. Like many of you on this list probably do, I get several hundred messages a day (up to 600). I almost hyperventilate at the thought of trying to navigate through them with a pointy-clicky interface. There are some things that point-and-click GUIs are good for, but they are usually (in my experience) far less efficient than an interface like mutt's. Therefore, I consider mutt's interface another plus. :) Yeah, it would be a pain to have to point and click around to [D]elete through several messages, for example! I do find the mouse to be useful in some cases though: If I want to go to a specific message on the screen, it would be easier to just click it with the mouse than figuring out how many times I have to hit the arrow keys to get there. Also, some GUI mail clients allow opening multiple windows to show more than one message at a time. That functionality is useful for when I want to compose a single reply to multiple messages, for example. (In mutt or pine, if I wanted to go look at another message while I'm already writing one, I'd have to postpone it, go look, and come back.)
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
I do find the mouse to be useful in some cases though: If I want to go to a specific message on the screen, it would be easier to just click it with the mouse than figuring out how many times I have to hit the arrow keys to get there. Jump to message number. Also, some GUI mail clients allow opening multiple windows to show more than one message at a time. That functionality is useful for when I want to compose a single reply to multiple messages, for example. (In mutt or pine, if I wanted to go look at another message while I'm already writing one, I'd have to postpone it, go look, and come back.) You could open 2 or 3 mutt sessions, or open the emails as text (having exported first, ok it's not ideal) in separate xterm vi windows. Simon -- Yuck! I'm in Windoze and PINE. Sorry, will be rebooting into Linux at earliest opportunity
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On Thu, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:30:30AM -0500, Philip Mak wrote: [...] (In mutt or pine, if I wanted to go look at another message while I'm already writing one, I'd have to postpone it, go look, and come back.) I use the splitting-feature of vim (:help sp). -- Cheers, Heiko Heil msg25149/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
Philip, et al -- ...and then Philip Mak said... % ... % I do find the mouse to be useful in some cases though: If I want to go % to a specific message on the screen, it would be easier to just click % it with the mouse than figuring out how many times I have to hit the % arrow keys to get there. You might try getting in the habit of noting where the message is in your index and jumping to the top or bottom to be closer to it. Then, again, you probably have the message number in the display and you can jump to it with typically three to four keystrokes and not more than five unless you're just really masochistic and like large folders. % % Also, some GUI mail clients allow opening multiple windows to show % more than one message at a time. That functionality is useful for when % I want to compose a single reply to multiple messages, for example. % (In mutt or pine, if I wanted to go look at another message while I'm % already writing one, I'd have to postpone it, go look, and come back.) Why not tag-reply and even get the threading right while you're at it? HTH HAND :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! msg25150/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
* Philip Mak [EMAIL PROTECTED] [03-07-02 11:33] crowed: Also, some GUI mail clients allow opening multiple windows to show more than one message at a time. That functionality is useful for when I want to compose a single reply to multiple messages, for example. (In mutt or pine, if I wanted to go look at another message while I'm already writing one, I'd have to postpone it, go look, and come back.) Goodness... Open several xterm windows with mutt and look at all the different msgs you wish. AND, no GUI required, but... a little more manipulation -- Pat Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 Registered at: http://counter.li.org 12:29pm up 18 days, 3:02, 7 users, load average: 1.00, 1.07, 1.18
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On 07/03/02 Philip Mak did speaketh: I do find the mouse to be useful in some cases though: If I want to go to a specific message on the screen, it would be easier to just click it with the mouse than figuring out how many times I have to hit the arrow keys to get there. Who uses the arrow keys?? hjkl man... Plus, just put in the number of the message you want to go to and hit enter. Mike -- Michael P. Soulier [EMAIL PROTECTED], GnuPG pub key: 5BC8BE08 ...the word HACK is used as a verb to indicate a massive amount of nerd-like effort. -Harley Hahn, A Student's Guide to Unix msg25172/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On 07/03/02 Heiko Heil did speaketh: I use the splitting-feature of vim (:help sp). How do you use it to read mail in a folder though? Do you open the mbox file? Mike -- Michael P. Soulier [EMAIL PROTECTED], GnuPG pub key: 5BC8BE08 ...the word HACK is used as a verb to indicate a massive amount of nerd-like effort. -Harley Hahn, A Student's Guide to Unix msg25173/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On 07/03/02 MuttER did speaketh: Goodness... Open several xterm windows with mutt and look at all the different msgs you wish. I just tried xterm -e mutt, and I get a no such file or directory error. Any idea what that is? I'd like to put opening mutt in an xterm on an IceWM keybinding. Mike -- Michael P. Soulier [EMAIL PROTECTED], GnuPG pub key: 5BC8BE08 ...the word HACK is used as a verb to indicate a massive amount of nerd-like effort. -Harley Hahn, A Student's Guide to Unix msg25174/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
Quoting Michael P. Soulier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Mar 07, 2002 16:30]: On 07/03/02 MuttER did speaketh: Goodness... Open several xterm windows with mutt and look at all the different msgs you wish. I just tried xterm -e mutt, and I get a no such file or directory error. Any idea what that is? I'd like to put opening mutt in an xterm on an IceWM keybinding. Try xterm -e /path/to/mutt (darren) -- My one regret in life is that I am not someone else. -- Woody Allen
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On Thu, 07 Mar 2002, darren chamberlain wrote: Quoting Michael P. Soulier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Mar 07, 2002 16:30]: On 07/03/02 MuttER did speaketh: Goodness... Open several xterm windows with mutt and look at all the different msgs you wish. I just tried xterm -e mutt, and I get a no such file or directory error. Any idea what that is? I'd like to put opening mutt in an xterm on an IceWM keybinding. Are you sure that you have xterm installed on your computer? or the path to xterm in your $PATH statment? Try xterm -e /path/to/mutt When I tried xterm -e Somerandomfilenamethatdoesn'texist the xterm window came up and the error message was in that xterm window. So where is the error message showing up? -- Knute msg25176/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On 07/03/02 darren chamberlain did speaketh: I just tried xterm -e mutt, and I get a no such file or directory error. Any idea what that is? I'd like to put opening mutt in an xterm on an IceWM keybinding. Try xterm -e /path/to/mutt I should have been clearer. It loads mutt, but then mutt gives me the no such file or directory error. Mike -- Michael P. Soulier [EMAIL PROTECTED], GnuPG pub key: 5BC8BE08 ...the word HACK is used as a verb to indicate a massive amount of nerd-like effort. -Harley Hahn, A Student's Guide to Unix msg25185/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 10:22:04PM +, Dave Smith wrote: (snipped a bunch of good points) Yes, it doesn't have nice and point-and-clicky interface, but I don't like them, anyway. Like many of you on this list probably do, I get several hundred messages a day (up to 600). I almost hyperventilate at the thought of trying to navigate through them with a pointy-clicky interface. There are some things that point-and-click GUIs are good for, but they are usually (in my experience) far less efficient than an interface like mutt's. Therefore, I consider mutt's interface another plus. :) I guess the sort of people who would use a GUI file manager would use Netscape mail (or maybe Kmail or something like that), and people who use loads of xterms would use mutt. I feel the same way about GUI file managers the same way I do about Netscape mail. :) -- Ben Logan: ben at wblogan dot net OpenPGP Key KeyID: A1ADD1F0 When the bosses talk about improving productivity, they are never talking about themselves.
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
Our IT group have just fixed the mail setup so that I can send mail to the outside world... On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:05:16AM -0900, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We also have a local linux user's group and a mailing list. A comment was made to the mailing list that mutt was handicapped. As you may well imagine, that comment was not received well. Is there anyone on this list that would like to contribute some comments about the advantages of switching from something like netscape mail to mutt? [snip] In comparison to Netscape... It doesn't provide that wonderful feature that when your web browser crashes, it takes your mail program with it. In the experience of my colleagues (who are following the corporate standard of Netscape), they get approx. 2-3 crashes per day. Apart from bug #939, which exists in beta versions only, I've never crashed mutt in 2+ years of constant use. Comparison: PID USERNAME THR PRI NICE SIZE RES STATETIMECPU COMMAND 193 dsmith 1 590 59M 36M sleep 37:11 0.56% netscape 23068 dsmith 1 580 3616K 3176K sleep0:19 0.00% mutt.1.3.27i.c Speaks for itself... ^ It is capable of running over a terminal (very useful when trying to read your mail from an internet cafe on the other side on the world, using SSH). Ever tried running Netscape on a remote machine displaying on the local machine? I've seen paint dry faster. It is so configurable to be laughable. It is positively speedy, despite running on a 32 MB, 486DX/2-66, with an inbox of 2.5k messages. It supports standards properly. Good GPG/PGP support. Yes, it doesn't have nice and point-and-clicky interface, but I don't like them, anyway. I guess the sort of people who would use a GUI file manager would use Netscape mail (or maybe Kmail or something like that), and people who use loads of xterms would use mutt. -- David Smith Tel: +44 (0)1454 462380 (direct) STMicroelectronicsFax: +44 (0)1454 617910 1000 Aztec WestTINA (ST only): (065) 2380 Almondsbury Home: 01454 616963 BRISTOLMobile: 07932 642724 BS32 4SQ Work Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is mutt really handicapped? - ha!
* Michael P. Soulier ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On 28/02/02 Thomas Hurst did speaketh: I doubt I'd last long with mutt with the default keys.. makes quick backup of ~/.src I'd be interested in seeing the changes you made. I like the default keys, but then, I like Vi. :) I like vim, but I'm usually concentrating much harder when I use that :) I actually just posted the important part of my keybindings to mutt-dev; bind browser right select-entry bind browser left exit bind index right display-message macro index left sync-mailboxchange-folder?toggle-mailboxes bind pager up previous-line bind pager down next-line bind pager left exit bind pager right view-attachments bind attach left exit bind attach right view-attach I might clean up the rest and put them somewhere, but it's nothing exceptional. -- Thomas 'Freaky' Hurst - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aagh.net/ - QOTD: I'm not really for apathy, but I'm not against it either...
Re: Is mutt really handicapped? - ha!
On Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 10:20:01AM -0500, Ken Wahl wrote: Why mutt? Speed and flexibility If you subscribe to a number of mailing lists which are generally high-volume then mutt makes speedy navigation a breeze Mutt is so highly configurable that I imagine no 2 person' mutts are alike I switched from Netscape to Pine for flexibility and options and then from Pine to Mutt for even more Mutt gives you choices about how to handle your mail that you wouldn't even have thought of while using another client Mutt makes handling your email a highly personalized experience This flexibility comes at the price of having a learning curve when it comes to setup and configuration but I don't see how you could have this level of flexibility any other way To be honest, I had considered switching from Pine to Mutt several months before I actually did My initial perusal of the muttrc left me somewhat overwhelmed so I put it down and came back later I had only been using linux for a few months and wasn't ready for it yet Using Mutt, I believe, has actually accelerated my progress at becoming a proficient user of Linux It changed my perspective and my preferences from a GUI based one to a console based one I remember hearing long-time linux users say that the command line gives so much more power, control and flexibility and I could intellectually understand the reasons they gave but it wasn't until after I had been using Mutt for a while that I developed a gut level appreciation for that point of view Using Mutt also led to me using Vim as my choice editor I know it was something written by Sven somewhere that convinced me of it but I don't recall if it was at his site, in a newsgroup or on this mailing list Up till then I had been using GUI editors outside of mail and pico with mutt because I become accustomed to it in Pine Now I use vim for everything and am grateful for having my eyes opened to it I hope that the Mutt developers don't decide to make it more useable by dumbing it down I believe this leads to applications geared toward the lowest common denominator and you end up with MUA's like LookOut! and OS's like M$ Mutt + vim + fetchmail + procmail + lbdb + gnupg + mixmaster = nirvana Well said! Tim
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:05:16AM -0900, Tim Johnson wrote: Hello All: Now that I have your attention - I and friends publish a webzine: http://wwwfrozen-north-linuxonlinecom/ And we publish monthly We also have a local linux user's group and a mailing list A comment was made to the mailing list that mutt was handicapped As you may well imagine, that comment was not received well Is there anyone on this list that would like to contribute some comments about the advantages of switching from something like netscape mail to mutt? If you do so, use your own judgement as to whether you want to send your comments to this list or directly to me Let me know if you wish to be quoted or if I should paraphrase your comments Feel free to be colorful I'm putting together a march column in which I'm going to talk about my useage of vim, mutt, fetchmail, procmail, lynx, slrn, ncftp, and MC as my suite of tools, and I would like to user your comments in that column BTW: Sven is a contributing columnist and we are always looking for contributing columnists In the current issue, I write about mailing lists and mention mutt there Best regards Tim This may sound a little more harsh than I mean it This isn't a flame, just a statement of opinion; please take it as such One of the worst things that is happening to Linux (and when I say Linux I'm including the BSD children and the rest of the new wave of open-source OSes, software, etc) is people's apparent deep-seeded need to legitimize it to Windows users (and when I say Windows I'm not just talking about RedmondOS, but a certain mindset that prevails regardless of OS) Show them the mutt web page If they don't see the advantage, well, why waste time trying to convert them? -- John Buttery (Web page temporarily unavailable) msg24871/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On 28-Feb-02 at 20:39, Ryan Singer's inspired musing was thus : On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:05:16AM -0900, Tim Johnson wrote: Is there anyone on this list that would like to contribute some comments about the advantages of switching from something like netscape mail to mutt? the biggest advantage for me is speed i can fly through my email w/ mutt, whereas most GUI clients force you to putz around with scroll bars and double clicking, etc etc the producitivity increase is so significant that i can't imagine using any other client the other advantage for me has been the fact that i can now centralize my email mutt and my mailboxes are on my computer at work, to which i can SSH whenever i want to check, read, or futz with my mail oh, and turning those obnoxious HTML emails into text? i love it :) Well you could do that with PINE, or just by typing mail at the command prompt (with the exception of the HTML part) anyway it isn't mutt that turns HTML into text I switched to mutt FROM pine, for 2 reasons: - 1) Because I learned that PINE, which has always been pre-installed on my system, is not open source I encourage open source from a personal, quiet point of view, purely by running software that is GPLed, getting to know it, and installing it it around the place as an alternative to paying Microsoft, Oracle, Sun and others - 2) Because I wanted more than PINE I read about Mutt's colour coding, macros, key redefinitions, etc, and have already started to play a little bit I can customise my reply header, etc etc However, Mutt is probably the hardest to set up email client I had to install Postfix and tweak it just to be able to send mail Some people call this an advantage, I call it a great inconvenience So, Mutt is not ideal for anyone other than sysadmins, hackers and Linux lovers who like spending quality time with a command prompt PINE does much of what Mutt does but can be installed by a doofus on a PC (precompiled PC-PINE was most of my college contemporaries first introduction to email in 93-94) or Unix, Linux etc and works pretty much out of the box On Windows, Outlook Express is installed by default and used by 95% of our dial up clients They already have something that works and will not try anything else For them, Outlook Express /is/ email However sad that may be I sure don't see them compiling Mutt using a cygwin environment or anything, but I have switched /some/ to PC-PINE, that's about as far as I'll get Mutt is a little bit like a connaisseur's mail client It has advantages for me which are more aesthetic and GPL based for me than anything else; I was reasonably happy with PINE and really miss some of its quirks There's no point promoting it to the masses, they just won't understand From a Morocco point of view, and for Africa in general, I would not say that Linux Advocacy is a waste of time Make a product freely available to the people, and they will do with it what they want No point bitching, moaning, being a purist, etc etc Just do it! It sure is an advantage to us here to be able to give a product for free, and charge just for our services Our clients can do way more with their low budgets -- |-Simon White |-Internet Services Manager |-MTDS SA |-tel +21237674861 |-fax +21237674863 |-14, rue 16 novembre |-Rabat, Kingdom of Morocco
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
Simon White wrote: - 1) Because I learned that PINE, which has always been pre-installed on my system, is not open source well to be fair, it's not open source according to some peoples' definition of open source the source code is freely available and you're allowed to make patches and distribute them; you just can't distribute modified binaries so while it's not GPL, and it doesn't fit many peoples' definitions of open source, it's certainly not that bad However, Mutt is probably the hardest to set up email client I had to install Postfix and tweak it just to be able to send mail Some people call this an advantage, I call it a great inconvenience you didn't have to do that although it was probably a good idea there are several lightweight sendmail replacements that would very probably have worked (ie ssmtp, etc), and these are linked from the site i do agree that mutt is fairly difficult to setup, and takes some time to get used to pine is a better client IMHO for someone who doesn't want to deal with the long learning curve and with all the configuration stuff i figured out how to use pine in an hour or two with little or no computer experience when i was a first year college student mutt took me several days to get used to, and this is after i had a fair bit of experience with *nix, computers, and mail clients i love mutt, and wouldn't switch for the world, but i don't think that it's the mail client for everyone i'd even be hesitant to recommend it to many of my (fairly computer-literate as a rule) co-workers it is, however, a great tool - and one well worth learning - if you're the kind of person who deals with hundreds of messages a day i do think that if the mutt developers and the mutt user community want to make mutt a more popular choice, that there should be more effort put into making mutt usable without so much configuration On Windows, Outlook Express is installed by default and used by 95% of our dial up clients They already have something that works and will not try anything else For them, Outlook Express /is/ email However sad that may be it's unfortunte as well because there are much better GUI mail clients out there -- Will Yardley william newdream net
blind elitism (was Re: Is mutt really handicapped?)
On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 02:23:35AM -0600, John Buttery wrote: This may sound a little more harsh than I mean it. This isn't a flame, just a statement of opinion; please take it as such... One of the worst things that is happening to Linux (and when I say Linux I'm including the BSD children and the rest of the new wave of open-source OSes, software, etc) is people's apparent deep-seeded need to legitimize it to Windows users (and when I say Windows I'm not just talking about RedmondOS, but a certain mindset that prevails regardless of OS). You know, enlightening people, showing them a better, easier, more elegant, powerful way of working is part of a generous mindset, it's called fraternity. It's not us versus them, we share all the same world and one can't live in supreme isolation. As I already stated on this list: if you don't evangelize Linux and its wonderful tools to the masses then you will follow the path of all elititist groups: obsolescence. Hapiness alone is not hapiness. Do you think Linux would have thrived as it does without any evangelism? The lower you place the barrier to entry into a better world, the stronger we will be collectively. In your ideal world you'll be part of the 1% who uses correct software; with whom will you be able to communicate once the other 99% use a proprietary mail protocol, because free tools were too hard to use and nobody cared to promote them? Show them the mutt web page. If they don't see the advantage, well, why waste time trying to convert them? Paraphrasing Paul Léautaud: Let's stop right there. There is an abyss between us. I would only shock you, and you would make me laugh. Too bad the world your attitude prepares is no laughing matter... -- HIPPOLYTE: La fille de Pallante a vaincu votre fils. Je l'adore, et mon âme, à vos ordres rebelle, Ne peut ni soupirer ni brûler que pour elle. (Phèdre, J-B Racine, acte 4, scène 2)
Re: blind elitism (was Re: Is mutt really handicapped?)
On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 10:38:22AM +0100, Louis-David Mitterrand wrote: On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 02:23:35AM -0600, John Buttery wrote: This may sound a little more harsh than I mean it. This isn't a flame, just a statement of opinion; please take it as such... One of the worst things that is happening to Linux (and when I say Linux I'm including the BSD children and the rest of the new wave of open-source OSes, software, etc) is people's apparent deep-seeded need to legitimize it to Windows users (and when I say Windows I'm not just talking about RedmondOS, but a certain mindset that prevails regardless of OS). You know, enlightening people, showing them a better, easier, more elegant, powerful way of working is part of a generous mindset, it's called fraternity. I didn't say/mean that you shouldn't show them, give them a push in the right direction. I just think that once you've led the horse to the water, maybe there's better things to do than shove its head in. :) It's not us versus them, we share all the same world and one can't live in supreme isolation. As I already stated on this list: if you don't evangelize Linux and its wonderful tools to the masses then you will follow the path of all elititist groups: obsolescence. Hapiness alone is not hapiness. I don't see how obsolescense follows from lack of evangelism. Linux and the open-source movement grew up from nothing, and continues to thrive and grow today. And I don't see how letting someone else use Netscape Mail is happiness alone. They email me, I email them. We coexist with our own MUAs. Do you think Linux would have thrived as it does without any evangelism? The lower you place the barrier to entry into a better world, the stronger we will be collectively. That, in my opinion, is only correct for certain values of lower. Let me use the example of Windows; Microsoft has spent tons of money and resources making each successive version easier to use and more accessible, and has it changed the percentage of (what some people call) clueless lusers? Maybe a little, but not really. And the reason is, that the barrier is not that Windows is hard to use, which it's not, but the mindset in people that it's hard, or that they can't do it. Continually lowering the bar perpetuates that mindset. Now don't get me wrong, there are definitely plenty of values of lower that _are_ valid; I'm not saying it should be twm or bust for anyone wanting to learn Linux, or mutt, or anything. All I'm saying is, mutt has a target demographic and not everyone is in it...and maybe we should stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes. One of my roommates is more than competent, has used mutt for longer than I have, and recently switched to Evolution and loves it. It's what's right for him; not everyone needs folder- and send- and pgp-hooks and 6 layers of mailcap fallthrough logic etc etc. In your ideal world you'll be part of the 1% who uses correct software; with whom will you be able to communicate once the other 99% use a proprietary mail protocol, because free tools were too hard to use and nobody cared to promote them? Now you're talking about a totally different concept. If it gets to the point where Microsoft (and if anybody does it, it will be them) moves toward proprietarizing SMTP (well, beyond internal Exchange-controlled networks) then yes, it's definitely time to start beating the war drums. But until then, my RFC-compliant messages reach them fine, and their (almost-)RFC-compliant messages reach me fine. We're not talking about converting Netscape users because we can't communicate with them. There are plenty of free MUAs out there that are perfectly easy to use; pine and Evolution spring first to mind. Usability is not going to be the barrier to conversion if it comes to that. The barrier is mindset (and, in Outlook's case, proprietary mailbox format). Show them the mutt web page. If they don't see the advantage, well, why waste time trying to convert them? Paraphrasing Paul Léautaud: Let's stop right there. There is an abyss between us. I would only shock you, and you would make me laugh. Too bad the world your attitude prepares is no laughing matter... I think you're misinterpreting my attitude. To me, there's only one good reason to do more than a simple push toward a better client; if they are your friend, etc., and you care about them enough to badger them until they use an MUA that doesn't make their system vulnerable to waves of VB- and Javascript-based scripting attacks. Anything beyond that, and you're talking about pushing information about someone solely for their own benefit. If they don't want to help themselves after being shown the way, well, that's their problem. Or, maybe the MUA/OS/whatever that they have now really is the right thing for them. Now, I'm willing to admit I'm a little jaded on the subject, but I still think I have a good point. Over the years I've
Re: Is mutt really handicapped? - ha!
Why mutt? Speed and flexibility. If you subscribe to a number of mailing lists which are generally high-volume then mutt makes speedy navigation a breeze. Mutt is so highly configurable that I imagine no 2 person' mutts are alike. I switched from Netscape to Pine for flexibility and options and then from Pine to Mutt for even more. Mutt gives you choices about how to handle your mail that you wouldn't even have thought of while using another client. Mutt makes handling your email a highly personalized experience. This flexibility comes at the price of having a learning curve when it comes to setup and configuration but I don't see how you could have this level of flexibility any other way. To be honest, I had considered switching from Pine to Mutt several months before I actually did. My initial perusal of the muttrc left me somewhat overwhelmed so I put it down and came back later. I had only been using linux for a few months and wasn't ready for it yet. Using Mutt, I believe, has actually accelerated my progress at becoming a proficient user of Linux. It changed my perspective and my preferences from a GUI based one to a console based one. I remember hearing long-time linux users say that the command line gives so much more power, control and flexibility and I could intellectually understand the reasons they gave but it wasn't until after I had been using Mutt for a while that I developed a gut level appreciation for that point of view. Using Mutt also led to me using Vim as my choice editor. I know it was something written by Sven somewhere that convinced me of it but I don't recall if it was at his site, in a newsgroup or on this mailing list. Up till then I had been using GUI editors outside of mail and pico with mutt because I become accustomed to it in Pine. Now I use vim for everything and am grateful for having my eyes opened to it. I hope that the Mutt developers don't decide to make it more useable by dumbing it down. I believe this leads to applications geared toward the lowest common denominator and you end up with MUA's like LookOut! and OS's like M$. Mutt + vim + fetchmail + procmail + lbdb + gnupg + mixmaster = nirvana -- Ken Wahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kenwahl.org/ PGP/GPG Public Key at http://www.kenwahl.org/pubkey.gpg Meme Propagation Engine (MindSec) [NSA] version 7.34-12i Weaponized Linux Kernel 2.4.9-21 Uptime Is 2 days 19:36
Re: Is mutt really handicapped? - ha!
On 01/03/02 Ken Wahl did speaketh: Mutt + vim + fetchmail + procmail + lbdb + gnupg + mixmaster = nirvana I know all of these except lbdb and mixmaster. What are they? Mike -- Michael P. Soulier [EMAIL PROTECTED], GnuPG pub key: 5BC8BE08 ...the word HACK is used as a verb to indicate a massive amount of nerd-like effort. -Harley Hahn, A Student's Guide to Unix msg24894/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Is mutt really handicapped? - ha!
On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:11:31PM -0500, Michael P. Soulier wrote: On 01/03/02 Ken Wahl did speaketh: Mutt + vim + fetchmail + procmail + lbdb + gnupg + mixmaster = nirvana I know all of these except lbdb and mixmaster. What are they? lbdb = Little Brother's Database http://www.spinnaker.de/lbdb/ Mixmaster = anonymous remailer software http://sourceforge.net/projects/mixmaster/ -- Ken Wahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kenwahl.org/ PGP/GPG Public Key at http://www.kenwahl.org/pubkey.gpg Meme Propagation Engine (MindSec) [NSA] version 7.34-12i Weaponized Linux Kernel 2.4.9-21 Uptime Is 3 days 6:00
Re: Is mutt really handicapped? - ha!
On Fri, 01 Mar 2002, Michael P. Soulier wrote: On 01/03/02 Ken Wahl did speaketh: Mutt + vim + fetchmail + procmail + lbdb + gnupg + mixmaster = nirvana I know all of these except lbdb and mixmaster. What are they? lbdb is the little brothers data base. What that does is to record email addy's that you recieve from once it is set up. It is searchable as well. Mixmaster, from what I understand, is something to allow an annonymous address to send mail from, but I don't know that much about it. -- Knute msg24898/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Is mutt really handicapped? - ha!
* Tim Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [020228 19:55]: Is there anyone on this list that would like to contribute some comments about the advantages of switching from something like netscape mail to mutt? echo you cannot do this with netscape | mutt netscape-weenie nuff said. I have guided some Linux people to switch from Netscape to mutt. So far they are not sorry at all. But it does take a few things to make them switch because you have to explain about some concepts. If you want a full report, well, give a week to write it up. I'm putting together a march column in which I'm going to talk about my useage of vim, mutt, fetchmail, procmail, lynx, slrn, ncftp, and MC as my suite of tools, and I would like to user your comments in that column. hmm... see sig. In the current issue, I write about mailing lists and mention mutt there. http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/faq/maillist.html ;-) Sven [who will present mutt in a demo on the next Linux event] -- Sven Guckes [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.guckes.net or go.to/guckes PROGRAMSWeb pages about these programs: agrep, awk, ed, elm, ftp, PROGRAMSirc, ispell, less, links, lynx, mutt, ncftp, nn, pico, pine, PROGRAMSprocmail, rxvt, screen, sed, slrn, vi, vim, w3m, xterm, zsh.
Re: Is mutt really handicapped? - ha!
* Sven Guckes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: echo you cannot do this with netscape | mutt netscape-weenie nuff said. But I can't view all my HTML pr0n spam without an external program, mutt sucks111 I have guided some Linux people to switch from Netscape to mutt. So far they are not sorry at all. But it does take a few things to make them switch because you have to explain about some concepts. If you want a full report, well, give a week to write it up. Mutt's learning curve is a bit steep for some, especially after you cross the threshold and have to unlearn half of it while you redefine it from .muttrc :) I doubt I'd last long with mutt with the default keys.. makes quick backup of ~/.src In the current issue, I write about mailing lists and mention mutt there. http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/faq/maillist.html ;-) Hmm, I should do a nice long rant on why laying out stuff using tables, font tags, all the stupid style attributes and not including doctype declorations is concidered harmful ;) Sven [who will present mutt in a demo on the next Linux event] Don't forget to leave the machine mutt is running on half way around the world ;) -- [..] PROGRAMSirc, ispell, less, links, lynx, mutt, ncftp, nn, pico, pine, I've completely replaced my use of ncftp with lftp. -- Thomas 'Freaky' Hurst - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aagh.net/ - Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes. -- Dr. Warren Jackson, Director, UTCS
Re: Is mutt really handicapped? - ha! ha!
* Sven Guckes [EMAIL PROTECTED] [020228 14:30]: snip... I have guided some Linux people to switch from Netscape to mutt. So far they are not sorry at all. But it does take a few things to make them switch because you have to explain about some concepts. If you want a full report, well, give a week to write it up. Go for it Sven. Like to see it. tj
Re: Is mutt really handicapped? - ha!
On 28/02/02 Thomas Hurst did speaketh: I doubt I'd last long with mutt with the default keys makes quick backup of ~/src I'd be interested in seeing the changes you made I like the default keys, but then, I like Vi :) Mike msg24868/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Is mutt really handicapped?
On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:05:16AM -0900, Tim Johnson wrote: Is there anyone on this list that would like to contribute some comments about the advantages of switching from something like netscape mail to mutt? the biggest advantage for me is speed i can fly through my email w/ mutt, whereas most GUI clients force you to putz around with scroll bars and double clicking, etc etc the producitivity increase is so significant that i can't imagine using any other client the other advantage for me has been the fact that i can now centralize my email mutt and my mailboxes are on my computer at work, to which i can SSH whenever i want to check, read, or futz with my mail oh, and turning those obnoxious HTML emails into text? i love it :) Ryan
