date:20220112




On 1/13/22 04:02, Mike Hammett wrote:


Armchair quarterbacking here:

Increasing
---
Demand
Age of infrastructure
Capital Costs
Operational Costs
Government mismanagement


Pressure from the tree huggers to lower carbon output that results from 
"traditional" power generation, and yet nobody wants to reduce their own 
demand for power.


I'm all for renewables, but at micro scale.

Renewables at grid scale, without a corresponding shift in demand 
habits, is a little naive, I think.


It's nice to say that power companies must go all renewables, when, as a 
consumer, you want to keep flipping switches like you did in the coal 
days. I just don't see it as a reality, when it comes down to it.


Mark.

Re: home router battery backup




On 1/12/22 23:34, Mike Hammett wrote:



Keeping one's spouse happy is FAR more important than keeping a router 
or modem online.  ;-)


In some circles, that may be one and the same thing :-).

Mark.

Re: home router battery backup




On 1/12/22 20:37, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG wrote:



Same.  My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS 
units backed by Champion transfer switches.  Power goes out, and ~45 
seconds later I'm running on generator power.
My local ISP runs out of power well before I do. Thankfully there's 
Starlink.


Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever 
be offline. ;)


I'm also fortunate to have whole-home backup (as well as self-generation 
with PV), especially in a country that is currently struggling with 
sustaining energy delivery in recent years.


A number of folk, here in South Africa, have been investing in, at the 
very least, so-called Micro UPS', that are small and cheap enough to 
drive a GPON ONU + wi-fi router, via DC.


https://www.takealot.com/ultralan-micro-ups-dc-poe-45w-8-8ah/PLID70728025

Mark.

Re: Useful ping targets for end-users?




On 1/12/22 17:35, Adam Thompson wrote:

Before you start reading, yes, I fully understand how silly this 
question is.  But I need to give _/something/_ to a customer who has 
the ability to run ping/traceroute but nothing else.  (And they have 
an intermittent latency problem that we haven’t been able to isolate yet.)


Does anyone curate a list of “useful” ICMP responders that are at 
least kinda-sorta reliable/expected to continue responding?  For 
example, all the major anycast DNS cloud providers respond to ICMP, 
but I don’t really want to tell my customer to ping an anycast IP 
address because the RTT results will be useless data (for comparative 
purposes).


I’m also not excited about providing random router IP address for what 
should be obvious reasons.  There are some IPs that my routing paths 
that should be stable, but between routing changes and control-plane 
policing, those aren’t awesome.  I’m looking for IPs I can suggest 
that are well outside my network.


Restatement: yes, there are much better ways to diagnose problems, but 
my customer can only run ping & traceroute (and pathping, I suppose) 
and is capable enough to run those tools and self-assess before 
calling me.


It sounds foolish to even ask, but maybe there’s a resource out there 
I don’t know about…




We do not recommend or advise customers to ping random online resources, 
however famous they may be. We don't want to be part of growing that 
problem for other networks.


We do operate a number of FreeBSD servers to capture and share public 
telemetry, and do offer customers the option to ping those, in various 
cities, if they are really keen to. Sometimes they do, other times they 
prefer to ping the famous online addresses.


We only put our name behind the servers we operate. We do not stop them 
from pinging off-net resources, but we make no gurantees as to their 
experience doing that.


Mark.

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Brandon Martin

On 1/12/22 9:35 PM, Jay Hennigan wrote:
From what I've seen on the market, home router or "residential gateway" devices with built-in battery backup typically only provide backup for FXS style analog POTS services, not for data, wireless, etc.

This was definitely the case for the Verizon FiOS I had about 14 years
ago. They're the only carrier I've ever used that provided regulated
("POTS replacement", at least) voice service by means other than POTS
and that automatically gave you a battery backup with their NID.

AT&T and Comcast don't seem to provide battery by default if you buy
voice service from them. Note that AT&T still offers POTS in my market
even where they've overlaid FTTC-based VDSL (U-Verse/Lightspeed) or
FTTH, which may be part of why. I assume they offer it as an option if
you inquire per the rules OP mentioned, but they don't seem to mention
it or do it by default even on their "business class" services.

Most of our customers don't back up their home network gear. If they do
it's most often an under-desk style UPS with 15-minute runtime that
hasn't been serviced in a decade. Its battery is very much dead and so
swollen that it can't be replaced without the use of some serious prying
tools.

This has been my experience as well. Even among customers with an
automatic standby generator, having a UPS for their "IT" gear seems
rare, and they're often uninterested. They just live with things
dropping for a minute or two while everything reboots/reconnects if the
power glitches.

The networks I operate (some of which I own and some of which I operate
on a contract-for-services basis) tend to only automatically provide
batteries in MDU/MBU settings where one ONT or other NID serves multiple
subscribers and is powered from house/common power. We do that because
power to the ONT/NID is then out of the hands of the subscriber, and
they wouldn't be able to put it on a battery if they wanted to as they
often don't even have physical access to it.

For SFU/SBU subscribers who inquire, we offer to provide and set up a
typical "desktop" style UPS like you mention or of course try to plug
the gear into one if they already have one. It doesn't take a big
battery to keep a single-port ONT and Wi-Fi router up for several hours
which is all most customers seem to hope for if they don't have a
generator. Obviously we charge for the UPS, though even with a modest
mark-up it ends up being comparable to retail pricing. We don't really
charge to set it up (how much set up is there?), but we also don't
attempt to monitor or maintain them; we treat it as a one-time purchase
and just do it to try to keep customers happy.

Based on seeing ONTs drop when I know there's a power outage in an area,
I'd say maybe 10% of the customers I manage operations for have their
ONT on a UPS tops. That's including the MDU/MBUs where we've provided
it (which accounts for maybe half or more of that 10%).

Note that none of the networks I operate offer voice service at all.
There hasn't been enough of a demand for it to deal with the regulatory
hassles. I'm mostly in residential and very small business, so they
either just use their mobiles or usually have some setup they're happy
with. I try to keep an ITSP with local service/support on-call to hand
referrals in case someone asks, and usually I can get them to do me the
same if they're working with one of their customers who are in the
market for better IP connectivity. It works out well enough.

Re: SRv6 Capable NOS and Devices





On 1/13/22 00:28, Colton Conor wrote:


I agree it seems like MPLS is still the gold standard, but ideally I
would only want to have costly, MPLS devices on the edge, only where
needed. The core and transport devices I would love to be able to use
generic IPv6 enabled switches, that don't need to support LDP. Low end
switches from premium vendors, like Juniper's  EX2200 - EX3400 don't
support LDP for example.

MPLS switches are very expensive compared to enterprise switches.


I would be surprised to find devices that support SR, and not MPLS/LDP.

Mark.

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread William Herrin

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:03 AM Scott T Anderson via NANOG
 wrote:
> requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to
> purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services
> during power outages. As this is only an option and only
> applies to customers who subscribe to voice services,

It's worse than that. The FiOS ONT I had would draw on the battery to
preserve the voice ports I didn't even have an active line on, but it
wouldn't power the ethernet port! Which was crazy because my landline
was voip and the whole point of the requirement was that I be able to
dial 911. Which I couldn't do because they cut my Internet port the
voip service needs.

It's silly anyway. If you want battery backup for the ONT, if that's
important to you, just buy a cheap commodity UPS.

Regards,
Bill Herrin

-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: home router battery backup





On 1/12/22 23:01, Sabri Berisha wrote:


Same here. A small UPS that will keep my modem, router, and POE for APs alive 
for
the time I need to run outside and hook up my generator when PG&E decides to cut
the power again. A bigger UPS for the small 19" rack that hosts some stuff.

Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That saves the
misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if I'm not
at home.


Here in South Africa, motorized garage doors come standard with a 
12-volt battery. The problem is most home owners don't realize that they 
need to be replaced every 2 - 3 years :-). So there are many homes out 
there which have had dead batteries for more than 20 years, and folk 
just accept that the manual handle comes down when the power is out.


That is, until you remind them to replace the battery.

Mark.

Re: home router battery backup





On 1/12/22 21:41, Michael Thomas wrote:

We just installed a battery too, but it will probably only last ~1 day 
and much less than that in winter. We're in the process of looking at 
a generator that interfaces directly with the inverter so that it 
handles the grid, the battery, the solar and the generator along with 
the transfer switch.


Or maybe the other way around - perhaps you should be looking for an 
inverter that handles all power sources... battery, utility and 
generator, so you don't have to worry about managing the transfer.


The inverter makes the choice on what power source to use to form its 
local grid, and only calls in the generator to recharge the batteries on 
poor weather days.


I run my inverter in "off-grid" mode, and we use the utility grid as a 
generator, meaning our primary power sources are solar and battery (no 
generator here - I have enough battery and PV to last 1.5 days on a 
single charge). The benefit of running it in off-grid mode is that 
transfer from grid failure to battery is 0ms - 20ms, depending on how 
the failure occurred. Both are indistinguishable for home appliances.


Mark.

Re: home router battery backup





On 1/12/22 20:50, Sean Donelan wrote:
Need to look at the entire infrastructure.  Now, its less about backup 
for the hardwired router, and better utility backups and construction 
for mobile provider infrastructure.


Over here, if there is an outage, most people lose their home Internet, 
and fall back to the nearest mobile tower.


The problem is the mobile towers in residential areas are no longer 
being invested in, so they get congested either on the radio side, or 
the backhaul side, or both. I mean, you have a clear 4G or 5G signal, 
but can't pass diddly. Not even an SMS.


On top of that, they have enough Li-Ion batteries for 4 - 8 hours, 
assuming they haven't been vandalized.


Multiply that across tens of thousands of towers nation-wide, and it's a 
huge logistical problem.


Mark.

Re: Useful ping targets for end-users?





On 1/12/22 17:58, Sean Donelan wrote:



Back in the old days, when there was competition between ISPs, the 
ISPs you paid money used to have curated speed test targets on their 
networks. Because you were paying them, some people wanted evidence 
they were getting what they were paying for, that was the only one 
under their control when you didn't get what you were paying.


We ran speedtest.net servers for about 4 years, and then retired them.

They outlived their usefuless as the minimum bandwidth made available to 
customers started to test the limits both of the servers and the 
customer's own gear.


It took another 3 years for both customers and internal teams to get 
onboard with "no more speedtest.net here", but finally, seems the ship 
has turned.


Mark.

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread John Levine

It appears that Shawn L via NANOG  said:
>In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home.  If we are
> providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we main
>tain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage.  

I have fiber service from my local RLEC.  The modem comes with a 12V battery
UPS which looks big enough to keep the phone and internet on for several days.

But as you say, it's the modem, not the router.  If the power went out
and the UPS I have for my other equipment ran down, which would take about
half an hour, I suppose I could run an ethernet cable from my laptop to
the modem.

R's,
John

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Jay Hennigan


On 1/12/22 09:35, Scott T Anderson via NANOG wrote:

Hi NANOG mailing list,

I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power 
outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation 
since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to 
voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice 
services during power outages. As this is only an option and only 
applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if 
anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home 
modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a 
battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?


From what I've seen on the market, home router or "residential gateway" 
devices with built-in battery backup typically only provide backup for 
FXS style analog POTS services, not for data, wireless, etc.


So, if you both pay for your ISP's analog phone service and still own an 
analog phone, it will work for a while. Nothing else will. This assumes 
that your local cable company both has battery-backed trunk amplifiers 
and that they service the batteries regularly. Many don't.


It's an FCC requirement to provide the ability to make emergency voice 
calls during a local power outage. This is an attempt to emulate the 
"good old days" when twisted-pair phone service with central office 
battery was the norm.


Speaking for myself, my networking gear is UPS-backed and my house has a 
Generac auto-start generator and ATS.


Most of our customers don't back up their home network gear. If they do 
it's most often an under-desk style UPS with 15-minute runtime that 
hasn't been serviced in a decade. Its battery is very much dead and so 
swollen that it can't be replaced without the use of some serious prying 
tools.


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Mike Hammett

Armchair quarterbacking here: 


Increasing 
--- 
Demand 
Age of infrastructure 
Capital Costs 
Operational Costs 
Government mismanagement 




Decreasing 
--- 
Tolerance for outages 
Tolerance for price increases 
Competence 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Ahmed elBornou"  
To: "Michael Thomas"  
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 4:37:33 PM 
Subject: Re: home router battery backup 


Do we know if there are common reasons why these power outages are on the rise 
across different states and if this is expected to continue ? 



Ahmed 


On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 11:43 AM Michael Thomas < m...@mtcc.com > wrote: 



On 1/12/22 11:25 AM, Fred Baker wrote: 
> 
>> On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:37 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG < nanog@nanog.org 
>> > wrote: 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth < a...@andyring.com > wrote: 
>> Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect 
>> the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I 
>> honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for 
>> their internet infrastructure. 
>> 
>> Same here. The only people I've seen that have battery backups for their 
>> home routers are fellow geeks. I even bought one and shipped it to my 
>> ~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want to install it. "Too 
>> complicated". 
>> 
>> I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by 
>> no means representative of the population at large in this particular area. 
>> 
>> Same. My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS units 
>> backed by Champion transfer switches. Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later 
>> I'm running on generator power. 
>> My local ISP runs out of power well before I do. Thankfully there's 
>> Starlink. 
>> 
>> Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be 
>> offline. ;) 
> In my case (California, home of SCE and PG&E), we have been notified by our 
> electrical grid operators that power can go down at any time, for any reason, 
> and any duration. I have just moved, so I am speaking in a historical context 
> and future plans, but we have solar electricity as well and have a battery in 
> the home that in effect backs up part of the house. We don't back up the 
> Internet service, because frankly if power is down in the grid I'm not sure 
> my favorite router is all that important, in addition to the considerations 
> already mentioned. But power can and does go down - even without asteroids. 

We just installed a battery too, but it will probably only last ~1 day 
and much less than that in winter. We're in the process of looking at a 
generator that interfaces directly with the inverter so that it handles 
the grid, the battery, the solar and the generator along with the 
transfer switch. It's gone from being the occasional nuisance in the 
winter to all year long these days. Our power outage over the holidays 
lasted 12 days. This isn't just a rural problem anymore in California, 
it's a pretty much everywhere problem now. 

Mike

Re: home router battery backup

On 1/12/22 2:37 PM, Ahmed elBornou wrote:
Do we know if there are common reasons why these power outages are on 
the rise across different states and if this is expected to continue ?

Climate change. We're living it. That and PG&E is corrupt.

Mike

Ahmed

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 11:43 AM Michael Thomas  wrote:

On 1/12/22 11:25 AM, Fred Baker wrote:
>
>> On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:37 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG
 wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth
 wrote:
>> Given that most people barely even know what their home router
is, I suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1
percent. Outside of my home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing
someone’s home using a battery backup for their internet
infrastructure.
>>
>> Same here.  The only people I've seen that have battery backups
for their home routers are fellow geeks.  I even bought one and
shipped it to my ~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want
to install it.  "Too complicated".
>>
>> I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this
list) am by no means representative of the population at large in
this particular area.
>>
>> Same.  My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA
double-conversion UPS units backed by Champion transfer switches. 
Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later I'm running on generator power.
>> My local ISP runs out of power well before I do. Thankfully
there's Starlink.
>>
>> Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely
I'll ever be offline. ;)
> In my case (California, home of SCE and PG&E), we have been
notified by our electrical grid operators that power can go down
at any time, for any reason, and any duration. I have just moved,
so I am speaking in a historical context and future plans, but we
have solar electricity as well and have a battery in the home that
in effect backs up part of the house. We don't back up the
Internet service, because frankly if power is down in the grid I'm
not sure my favorite router is all that important, in addition to
the considerations already mentioned. But power can and does go
down - even without asteroids.

We just installed a battery too, but it will probably only last ~1
day
and much less than that in winter. We're in the process of looking
at a
generator that interfaces directly with the inverter so that it
handles
the grid, the battery, the solar and the generator along with the
transfer switch. It's gone from being the occasional nuisance in the
winter to all year long these days. Our power outage over the
holidays
lasted 12 days. This isn't just a rural problem anymore in
California,
it's a pretty much everywhere problem now.

Mike

Re: SRv6 Capable NOS and Devices

2022-01-12 Thread Sander Steffann

Hi Randy,

> this is quite true, and a serious issue.  but it has a good side.  if
> you run an ipv6 enebled network, you can deploy srv6 without enabling
> srv6 everywhere, only at the marking encaps or embed) points.  nice for
> partial and/or incremental deployment.

Yep, that's what I like about it! But I haven't figured out a way to mitigate 
the risks. Easy deployment == easy abuse it seems :(

Cheers,
Sander

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Andy Ringsmuth



>>> On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG 
>>> wrote:
>>> services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of
>>> battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users
>>> actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an 
>>> external
>>> UPS?
> 
>> Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect 
>> the
>> percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I
>> honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for
>> their internet infrastructure.
> 
> Same here. A small UPS that will keep my modem, router, and POE for APs alive 
> for
> the time I need to run outside and hook up my generator when PG&E decides to 
> cut
> the power again. A bigger UPS for the small 19" rack that hosts some stuff.
> 
> Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That saves the
> misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if I'm not
> at home.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Sabri

Great idea on the garage opener. I got a new one a year ago with an integrated 
battery for exactly that purpose. And, although I didn’t realize it when I 
bought it, it also lets me tie it to Amazon so they can open the door, leave my 
packages inside, and close the door. No more porch pirates!


-Andy

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Ahmed elBornou

Do we know if there are common reasons why these power outages are on the
rise across different states and if this is expected to continue ?

Ahmed

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 11:43 AM Michael Thomas  wrote:

>
> On 1/12/22 11:25 AM, Fred Baker wrote:
> >
> >> On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:37 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <
> nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth 
> wrote:
> >> Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I
> suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my
> home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery
> backup for their internet infrastructure.
> >>
> >> Same here.  The only people I've seen that have battery backups for
> their home routers are fellow geeks.  I even bought one and shipped it to
> my ~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want to install it.  "Too
> complicated".
> >>
> >> I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list)
> am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular
> area.
> >>
> >> Same.  My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS
> units backed by Champion transfer switches.  Power goes out, and ~45
> seconds later I'm running on generator power.
> >> My local ISP runs out of power well before I do.  Thankfully there's
> Starlink.
> >>
> >> Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever
> be offline. ;)
> > In my case (California, home of SCE and PG&E), we have been notified by
> our electrical grid operators that power can go down at any time, for any
> reason, and any duration. I have just moved, so I am speaking in a
> historical context and future plans, but we have solar electricity as well
> and have a battery in the home that in effect backs up part of the house.
> We don't back up the Internet service, because frankly if power is down in
> the grid I'm not sure my favorite router is all that important, in addition
> to the considerations already mentioned. But power can and does go down -
> even without asteroids.
>
> We just installed a battery too, but it will probably only last ~1 day
> and much less than that in winter. We're in the process of looking at a
> generator that interfaces directly with the inverter so that it handles
> the grid, the battery, the solar and the generator along with the
> transfer switch. It's gone from being the occasional nuisance in the
> winter to all year long these days. Our power outage over the holidays
> lasted 12 days. This isn't just a rural problem anymore in California,
> it's a pretty much everywhere problem now.
>
> Mike
>
>

Re: SRv6 Capable NOS and Devices

2022-01-12 Thread Colton Conor

I agree it seems like MPLS is still the gold standard, but ideally I
would only want to have costly, MPLS devices on the edge, only where
needed. The core and transport devices I would love to be able to use
generic IPv6 enabled switches, that don't need to support LDP. Low end
switches from premium vendors, like Juniper's  EX2200 - EX3400 don't
support LDP for example.

MPLS switches are very expensive compared to enterprise switches.

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 1:09 AM Mark Tinka  wrote:
>
>
>
> On 1/11/22 17:16, Colton Conor wrote:
>
> >   Has
> > anyone deployed this new technology?
>
> I have heard of a network in Uganda that is running it.
>
> The rest I've heard of are either in the lab, or some portions of their
> network under testing.
>
>
> > If building a greenfield regional ISP network, would SRv6 be a requirement?
>
> Nope! It's a problem looking for a problem.
>
>
> > My understanding is that because it's using IPv6 in the dataplane, not
> > all devices have to have SRv6 enabled. The in-between core devices
> > just have to support IPv6, but not necessarily support SRv6. This is
> > much different than traditional MPLS networks today where all devices
> > have to support MPLS/LDP correct?
>
> You'd be hard-pressed to find anything that will help you generate
> revenue that does not come with MPLS baked into the chip and code.
>
> Do you want to take the chance of where and when SRv6 may or may not be
> needed?
>
> SRv6 is Cisco trying to create a market for a problem that does not
> exist. In the process, all other vendors are forced to waste tons of
> money and time to stay in the game, when they could be fixing real
> problems and adding real value.
>
> Don't fall for the trap. Vote with your wallet, and feet. We did.
>
> Mark.

Re: SRv6 Capable NOS and Devices

2022-01-12 Thread Randy Bush

> What worries me more is the opportunity for adversaries to inject SRv6
> packets. MPLS is not enabled by default on most router interfaces, so
> an adversary would have to have access to an interface where MPLS
> processing is explicitly enabled. IPv6 packet processing on the other
> hand… Unless an operator has airtight protection on every interface to
> block unwanted SRv6 headers I see some interesting opportunities to
> cause havoc :)

this is quite true, and a serious issue.  but it has a good side.  if
you run an ipv6 enebled network, you can deploy srv6 without enabling
srv6 everywhere, only at the marking encaps or embed) points.  nice for
partial and/or incremental deployment.

randy, with no dog in this fight

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Keith Stokes

Many times those coincide. ;-)

On 1/12/22 3:34 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
"Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That 
saves the
misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if 
I'm not

at home."

Keeping one's spouse happy is FAR more important than keeping a router 
or modem online.  ;-)

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

*From: *"Sabri Berisha" 
*To: *"nanog" 
*Sent: *Wednesday, January 12, 2022 3:01:27 PM
*Subject: *Re: home router battery backup

- On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Andy Ringsmuth a...@andyring.com 
wrote:

Hi,

>> On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG 

>> wrote:
>> services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the 
prevalence of
>> battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of 
home users
>> actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use 
an external

>> UPS?

> Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I 
suspect the

> percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I
> honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery 
backup for

> their internet infrastructure.

Same here. A small UPS that will keep my modem, router, and POE for 
APs alive for
the time I need to run outside and hook up my generator when PG&E 
decides to cut
the power again. A bigger UPS for the small 19" rack that hosts some 
stuff.

Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That 
saves the
misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if 
I'm not

at home.

Thanks,

Sabri

--
Keith Stokes
SalonBiz, Inc

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Mike Hammett

" Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That saves the 
misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if I'm not 
at home." 

Keeping one's spouse happy is FAR more important than keeping a router or modem 
online. ;-) 

- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Sabri Berisha"  
To: "nanog"  
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 3:01:27 PM 
Subject: Re: home router battery backup 

- On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Andy Ringsmuth a...@andyring.com wrote: 

Hi, 

>> On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG  
>> wrote: 
>> services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of 
>> battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users 
>> actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an 
>> external 
>> UPS? 

> Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect 
> the 
> percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I 
> honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for 
> their internet infrastructure. 

Same here. A small UPS that will keep my modem, router, and POE for APs alive 
for 
the time I need to run outside and hook up my generator when PG&E decides to 
cut 
the power again. A bigger UPS for the small 19" rack that hosts some stuff. 

Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That saves the 
misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if I'm not 
at home. 

Thanks, 

Sabri

Re: ONTs

2022-01-12 Thread Josh Luthman

I would have to imagine any QOS/traffic shaping is done in the OMCI and
hence would probably be in the GPON spec, g.984.  I would look there.

Just guessing it would hold true with XG/s/PON, NGPON, etc.

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 3:33 PM Dave Taht  wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:27 PM Josh Luthman
>  wrote:
> >
> > That's usually an OMCI control thing on the OLT (traffic shaping, qos).
> Do you have a specific question in mind?
>
> My dream, of course, is fq_codel (nowadays, sch_cake) on every
> potential bottleneck link. FQ for essentially zero latency for sparse
> packets, AQM for achieving
> far shorter queue lengths.
>
> I'd settle for an ONT that applied ethernet pause frames sanely so a
> smarter router upstream did the right things. There's a ton of smarter
> routers nowadays. Any ONT's
> that use pause frames and have very small onboard buffers?
>
> Been working on getting mikrotik up to speed on this incredibly long
> thread over here; https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179307
>
> > Josh Luthman
> > 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
> > Direct: 937-552-2343
> > 1100 Wayne St
> > Suite 1337
> > Troy, OH 45373
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 3:04 PM Dave Taht  wrote:
> >>
> >> Does anyone have any insight as to the OS and overall capabilities of
> >> various ONT's? Traffic shaping/QoS and statistics?
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:01 PM Shawn L via NANOG 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Yes.  In our scenario the ONT is basically an ethernet bridge and
> provides a SIP end-point for calls.  There are models that have the router
> built-into them as well, but we've chosen not to use them at this point.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The battery we install is designed to run the voice portion for ~ 8
> hours (customers are offered a longer run-time battery for an additional
> fee).  There's some sensor wires from the ONT to the UPS so that we know
> when power is out, the battery is low or needs to be replaced, etc.  It
> also tells the ONT to turn off ethernet services when the power is out to
> preserve battery for the phone portion.  Though that behavior can be
> changed in software.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -Original Message-
> >> > From: "Michael Thomas" 
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:48pm
> >> > To: nanog@nanog.org
> >> > Subject: Re: home router battery backup
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 1/12/22 10:54 AM, Shawn L via NANOG wrote:
> >> >
> >> > In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home.  If we
> are providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we
> maintain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage.
> It does not power their router, etc.  99% of the customers do not install a
> UPS for their router, etc.  We try to explain that to customers, but we
> still get calls that they can't get on the Internet when their power is out.
> >> >
> >> > So your voice is part of the modem which isn't a router? I assume it
> uses IP for voice.
> >> >
> >> > Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> >> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
> >>
> >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>
>
>
> --
> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
>
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Sabri Berisha

- On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Andy Ringsmuth a...@andyring.com wrote:

Hi,

>> On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG 
>> wrote:
>> services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of
>> battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users
>> actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an 
>> external
>> UPS?

> Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect 
> the
> percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I
> honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for
> their internet infrastructure.

Same here. A small UPS that will keep my modem, router, and POE for APs alive 
for
the time I need to run outside and hook up my generator when PG&E decides to cut
the power again. A bigger UPS for the small 19" rack that hosts some stuff.

Top Gear Top Tip: I also have a UPS on my garage door opener. That saves the
misses from dealing with manually opening/closing the garage door if I'm not
at home.

Thanks,

Sabri

Re: ONTs

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:27 PM Josh Luthman
 wrote:
>
> That's usually an OMCI control thing on the OLT (traffic shaping, qos).  Do 
> you have a specific question in mind?

My dream, of course, is fq_codel (nowadays, sch_cake) on every
potential bottleneck link. FQ for essentially zero latency for sparse
packets, AQM for achieving
far shorter queue lengths.

I'd settle for an ONT that applied ethernet pause frames sanely so a
smarter router upstream did the right things. There's a ton of smarter
routers nowadays. Any ONT's
that use pause frames and have very small onboard buffers?

Been working on getting mikrotik up to speed on this incredibly long
thread over here; https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179307

> Josh Luthman
> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 3:04 PM Dave Taht  wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone have any insight as to the OS and overall capabilities of
>> various ONT's? Traffic shaping/QoS and statistics?
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:01 PM Shawn L via NANOG  wrote:
>> >
>> > Yes.  In our scenario the ONT is basically an ethernet bridge and provides 
>> > a SIP end-point for calls.  There are models that have the router 
>> > built-into them as well, but we've chosen not to use them at this point.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The battery we install is designed to run the voice portion for ~ 8 hours 
>> > (customers are offered a longer run-time battery for an additional fee).  
>> > There's some sensor wires from the ONT to the UPS so that we know when 
>> > power is out, the battery is low or needs to be replaced, etc.  It also 
>> > tells the ONT to turn off ethernet services when the power is out to 
>> > preserve battery for the phone portion.  Though that behavior can be 
>> > changed in software.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: "Michael Thomas" 
>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:48pm
>> > To: nanog@nanog.org
>> > Subject: Re: home router battery backup
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 1/12/22 10:54 AM, Shawn L via NANOG wrote:
>> >
>> > In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home.  If we are 
>> > providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we 
>> > maintain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage. 
>> >  It does not power their router, etc.  99% of the customers do not install 
>> > a UPS for their router, etc.  We try to explain that to customers, but we 
>> > still get calls that they can't get on the Internet when their power is 
>> > out.
>> >
>> > So your voice is part of the modem which isn't a router? I assume it uses 
>> > IP for voice.
>> >
>> > Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
>>
>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC



-- 
I tried to build a better future, a few times:
https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org

Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: ONTs

2022-01-12 Thread Josh Luthman

That's usually an OMCI control thing on the OLT (traffic shaping, qos).  Do
you have a specific question in mind?

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 3:04 PM Dave Taht  wrote:

> Does anyone have any insight as to the OS and overall capabilities of
> various ONT's? Traffic shaping/QoS and statistics?
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:01 PM Shawn L via NANOG 
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes.  In our scenario the ONT is basically an ethernet bridge and
> provides a SIP end-point for calls.  There are models that have the router
> built-into them as well, but we've chosen not to use them at this point.
> >
> >
> >
> > The battery we install is designed to run the voice portion for ~ 8
> hours (customers are offered a longer run-time battery for an additional
> fee).  There's some sensor wires from the ONT to the UPS so that we know
> when power is out, the battery is low or needs to be replaced, etc.  It
> also tells the ONT to turn off ethernet services when the power is out to
> preserve battery for the phone portion.  Though that behavior can be
> changed in software.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: "Michael Thomas" 
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:48pm
> > To: nanog@nanog.org
> > Subject: Re: home router battery backup
> >
> >
> >
> > On 1/12/22 10:54 AM, Shawn L via NANOG wrote:
> >
> > In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home.  If we are
> providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we
> maintain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage.
> It does not power their router, etc.  99% of the customers do not install a
> UPS for their router, etc.  We try to explain that to customers, but we
> still get calls that they can't get on the Internet when their power is out.
> >
> > So your voice is part of the modem which isn't a router? I assume it
> uses IP for voice.
> >
> > Mike
>
>
>
> --
> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
>
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>

ONTs

Does anyone have any insight as to the OS and overall capabilities of
various ONT's? Traffic shaping/QoS and statistics?

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:01 PM Shawn L via NANOG  wrote:
>
> Yes.  In our scenario the ONT is basically an ethernet bridge and provides a 
> SIP end-point for calls.  There are models that have the router built-into 
> them as well, but we've chosen not to use them at this point.
>
>
>
> The battery we install is designed to run the voice portion for ~ 8 hours 
> (customers are offered a longer run-time battery for an additional fee).  
> There's some sensor wires from the ONT to the UPS so that we know when power 
> is out, the battery is low or needs to be replaced, etc.  It also tells the 
> ONT to turn off ethernet services when the power is out to preserve battery 
> for the phone portion.  Though that behavior can be changed in software.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Michael Thomas" 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:48pm
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: home router battery backup
>
>
>
> On 1/12/22 10:54 AM, Shawn L via NANOG wrote:
>
> In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home.  If we are 
> providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we 
> maintain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage.  
> It does not power their router, etc.  99% of the customers do not install a 
> UPS for their router, etc.  We try to explain that to customers, but we still 
> get calls that they can't get on the Internet when their power is out.
>
> So your voice is part of the modem which isn't a router? I assume it uses IP 
> for voice.
>
> Mike



-- 
I tried to build a better future, a few times:
https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org

Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Shawn L via NANOG


Yes.  In our scenario the ONT is basically an ethernet bridge and provides a 
SIP end-point for calls.  There are models that have the router built-into them 
as well, but we've chosen not to use them at this point.
 
The battery we install is designed to run the voice portion for ~ 8 hours 
(customers are offered a longer run-time battery for an additional fee).  
There's some sensor wires from the ONT to the UPS so that we know when power is 
out, the battery is low or needs to be replaced, etc.  It also tells the ONT to 
turn off ethernet services when the power is out to preserve battery for the 
phone portion.  Though that behavior can be changed in software.
 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: "Michael Thomas" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:48pm
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: home router battery backup



 
On 1/12/22 10:54 AM, Shawn L via NANOG wrote:
In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home.  If we are 
providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we maintain) 
that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage.  It does not 
power their router, etc.  99% of the customers do not install a UPS for their 
router, etc.  We try to explain that to customers, but we still get calls that 
they can't get on the Internet when their power is out.
So your voice is part of the modem which isn't a router? I assume it uses IP 
for voice. 

Mike

Re: home router battery backup



On 1/12/22 10:54 AM, Shawn L via NANOG wrote:


In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home.  If we 
are providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed 
(we maintain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power 
outage.  It does not power their router, etc.  99% of the customers do 
not install a UPS for their router, etc.  We try to explain that to 
customers, but we still get calls that they can't get on the Internet 
when their power is out.


So your voice is part of the modem which isn't a router? I assume it 
uses IP for voice.


Mike

Re: home router battery backup

On 1/12/22 11:25 AM, Fred Baker wrote:

On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:37 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG
wrote:

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect
the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I
honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for
their internet infrastructure.

Same here. The only people I've seen that have battery backups for their home routers
are fellow geeks. I even bought one and shipped it to my ~70-year-old mother...and she
just doesn't want to install it. "Too complicated".

I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no means representative of the population at large in this particular area.

Same. My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS units
backed by Champion transfer switches. Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later
I'm running on generator power.
My local ISP runs out of power well before I do. Thankfully there's Starlink.

Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be
offline. ;)

In my case (California, home of SCE and PG&E), we have been notified by our
electrical grid operators that power can go down at any time, for any reason, and
any duration. I have just moved, so I am speaking in a historical context and
future plans, but we have solar electricity as well and have a battery in the home
that in effect backs up part of the house. We don't back up the Internet service,
because frankly if power is down in the grid I'm not sure my favorite router is all
that important, in addition to the considerations already mentioned. But power can
and does go down - even without asteroids.

We just installed a battery too, but it will probably only last ~1 day
and much less than that in winter. We're in the process of looking at a
generator that interfaces directly with the inverter so that it handles
the grid, the battery, the solar and the generator along with the
transfer switch. It's gone from being the occasional nuisance in the
winter to all year long these days. Our power outage over the holidays
lasted 12 days. This isn't just a rural problem anymore in California,
it's a pretty much everywhere problem now.

Mike

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Justin Streiner

I'm one of the atypical users, when compared to the population at large,
but probably in line for this audience.

Critical gear is on a transfer switch and both inputs to that come from
UPSs that are on separate circuits. Less critical gear is fed from one UPS
or the other to balance the load and allow headroom for a load shift due to
a UPS failure.  My office gear is on a separate UPS on a different circuit.

Thank you
jms

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 13:01 Scott T Anderson via NANOG 
wrote:

> Hi NANOG mailing list,
>
>
>
> I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power
> outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation
> since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to
> voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services
> during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to
> customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had
> any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers?
> I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in
> their home modem/router or use an external UPS?
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> Reference for 47 CFR Section 9.20:
> https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-H/section-9.20
>
>
>

Re: DNS-OARC 37 Call for Presentations

2022-01-12 Thread John Todd

The Program Committee has decided to extend the Call for Contributions 
until 17 Jan 2022 23:59 UTC. The OARC Board has decided that OARC 37 
will be a one day hybrid conference.


 Thank you if you've already submitted a proposal. We still haven't 
filled the capacity and are able to accept more content. Please note 
that remote participation is actively supported.


 Revised Workshop Milestones:

 * 27 December 2021 - Submissions open via Indico
 * 17 January 2022  - Deadline for submission (23:59 UTC)
 * 19 January 2022  - Initial Contribution list published
 * 21 January 2022  - Full agenda published
 * 3  February 2022 - Deadline for slideset submission and Rehearsal
 * 17 February 2022 - OARC 37 Workshop ( One day conference)

 The details for presentation submission are published at the Workshop 
website:


 https://www.dns-oarc.net/oarc37

 If you have questions or concerns you can contact the Programme 
Committee:


 https://www.dns-oarc.net/oarc/programme

 via 

John Todd, for the DNS-OARC Programme Committee

--
John Todd - jt...@quad9.net - +1-415-831-3123
General Manager - Quad9 Recursive Resolver

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Fred Baker

> On Jan 12, 2022, at 10:37 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG  
> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth  wrote:
> Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect 
> the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I 
> honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for 
> their internet infrastructure.
> 
> Same here.  The only people I've seen that have battery backups for their 
> home routers are fellow geeks.  I even bought one and shipped it to my 
> ~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want to install it.  "Too 
> complicated".
>  
> I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by 
> no means representative of the population at large in this particular area.
> 
> Same.  My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS units 
> backed by Champion transfer switches.  Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later 
> I'm running on generator power.
> My local ISP runs out of power well before I do.  Thankfully there's Starlink.
> 
> Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be 
> offline. ;)

In my case (California, home of SCE and PG&E), we have been notified by our 
electrical grid operators that power can go down at any time, for any reason, 
and any duration. I have just moved, so I am speaking in a historical context 
and future plans, but we have solar electricity as well and have a battery in 
the home that in effect backs up part of the house. We don't back up the 
Internet service, because frankly if power is down in the grid I'm not sure my 
favorite router is all that important, in addition to the considerations 
already mentioned. But power can and does go down - even without asteroids.

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Ryan Wilkins

When I subscribed to Windstream fiber at my house a couple years ago I didn’t 
order voice service but they installed a UPS anyway.  Curiously, they also 
connected the wires meant for voice lines to their outdoor equipment mounted on 
the house.  The guy told me he did that after he hooked it up which I was 
mildly annoyed about since I had planned to use that cable for other reasons.  
He was pushing voice service and said I was hooked up for voice should I want 
to do this in the future.  I’m unsure if this is a standard Windstream install 
or what.

To add to that, I have my own UPS installed on some of my indoor equipment.. 
router, one WiFi AP, Synology file server, x86 linux server.  While we almost 
never lose power at my house, yesterday we lost power for 7 minutes.  I 
maintained Internet connectivity throughout the brief outage.

Ryan Wilkins

> On Jan 12, 2022, at 12:35 PM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi NANOG mailing list,
>  
> I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages 
> affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 
> (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers 
> to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power 
> outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who 
> subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on 
> the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what 
> percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home 
> modem/router or use an external UPS?
>  
> Thanks.
> Scott
>  
> Reference for 47 CFR Section 9.20: 
> https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-H/section-9.20
>  
>

RE: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Shawn L via NANOG


In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home.  If we are 
providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we maintain) 
that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage.  It does not 
power their router, etc.  99% of the customers do not install a UPS for their 
router, etc.  We try to explain that to customers, but we still get calls that 
they can't get on the Internet when their power is out.
 

-Original Message-
From: "Scott T Anderson via NANOG" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 12:35pm
To: "nanog@nanog.org" 
Subject: home router battery backup




Hi NANOG mailing list,
 
I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages 
affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 
CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to 
purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As 
this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice 
services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of 
battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users 
actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external 
UPS?
 
Thanks.
Scott
 
Reference for 47 CFR Section 9.20: [  
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-H/section-9.20
 ]( 
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-H/section-9.20
 )

Re: home router battery backup




On 1/12/22 10:43 AM, Dave Taht wrote:

I too see very little gear protected by a UPS. In nicaragua, even,
when I lived there, and the power flickered 6x times a day, "normal"
people just accepted it.

However, with the huge implosion of battery costs and increase in
power from the cellphone revolution, and how little power most home
routing gear uses (usually under 6w) it really does strike me
as plausible we could see a capable battery land in more home routing
gear as a feature more users might buy, and not just for backup
telephony..


That might be good for transient glitches, but with real power outages 
it begs the question of everything else that needs power. We deal with 
days long outages all of the time because of PG&E, so the router being 
powered is just a small piece of the equation.


Mike

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Sean Donelan

Need to look at the entire infrastructure.  Now, its less about backup for 
the hardwired router, and better utility backups and construction for 
mobile provider infrastructure.


Almost all households have at least one mobile phone, with built-in 
battery backup :-)  We used to have public pay telephones for people 
without phones in their homes, but not anymore.



Landline telephone - 40% households (70% in 2010, and 96% in 2000)

Smart speakers - 50% households (introduced in 2014)

Cellular smartphone - 80% households (34% in 2010, introduced 2007)
  - yes, I know, the first smartphone was 1994, but the modern smartphone
was introduced in 2007.

Cellular phone (anytype) - 97% households (80% in 2010, 55% in 2000)
  - older and poorer people have 'dumb' cell phones - WEA doesn't reach
everyone.

Re: home router battery backup

I too see very little gear protected by a UPS. In nicaragua, even,
when I lived there, and the power flickered 6x times a day, "normal"
people just accepted it.

However, with the huge implosion of battery costs and increase in
power from the cellphone revolution, and how little power most home
routing gear uses (usually under 6w) it really does strike me
as plausible we could see a capable battery land in more home routing
gear as a feature more users might buy, and not just for backup
telephony..


On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:39 AM Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG
 wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth  wrote:
>>
>> Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect 
>> the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I 
>> honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for 
>> their internet infrastructure.
>
>
> Same here.  The only people I've seen that have battery backups for their 
> home routers are fellow geeks.  I even bought one and shipped it to my 
> ~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want to install it.  "Too 
> complicated".
>
>>
>> I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by 
>> no means representative of the population at large in this particular area.
>
>
> Same.  My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS units 
> backed by Champion transfer switches.  Power goes out, and ~45 seconds later 
> I'm running on generator power.
> My local ISP runs out of power well before I do.  Thankfully there's Starlink.
>
> Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be 
> offline. ;)
>
> -A
>


-- 
I tried to build a better future, a few times:
https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org

Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: home router battery backup

On 1/12/22 10:15 AM, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:

On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG
wrote:

Hi NANOG mailing list,

I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS?

Thanks.

Scott

Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect
the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I
honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for
their internet infrastructure.

I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no
means representative of the population at large in this particular area.

Don't underestimate the disaster that is PG&E in California. We have a
generator so don't really need battery backup for the router, but we're
lucky since their DSLAM is battery backed up from the CO. Lots of cable
users are not so lucky as they found out when PG&E started routinely
having blackouts so they don't burn the state down. This shows why MSO
should have the same mandate as telcos for battery backup to their headends.

Mike

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread richey goldberg

At my last employer we installed lots of Adtrans at Car Dealerships, Hotels, 
and other SMBs.It was common for them to have a small UPS but 9 times out 
of 10 the UPS 2-3 times older than the life cycle of the battery and no one 
ever knew that you could change the battery in them.So they usually just 
had a heavy power strip that was prone to failing after a power loss.

We did have the option to install a battery back up on the Adtran but it would 
have been useless because most of them didn’t have any kind of backup power for 
their PBXs.

I’m pretty sure that my own power protection on my network gear and theater 
gear far exceeded the average end user’s remote offices.

-richey

From: NANOG  on behalf of 
Andy Ringsmuth 
Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 1:16 PM
To: Scott T Anderson , Scott T Anderson via NANOG 

Subject: Re: home router battery backup

> On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG  
> wrote:
>
> Hi NANOG mailing list,
>
> I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages 
> affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 
> (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers 
> to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power 
> outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who 
> subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on 
> the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what 
> percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home 
> modem/router or use an external UPS?
>
> Thanks.
> Scott

Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect 
the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I 
honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for 
their internet infrastructure.

I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no 
means representative of the population at large in this particular area.

Andy Ringsmuth
5609 Harding Drive
Lincoln, NE 68521-5831
(402) 304-0083
a...@andyring.com

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:18 AM Andy Ringsmuth  wrote:

> Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I
> suspect the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my
> home, I honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery
> backup for their internet infrastructure.
>

Same here.  The only people I've seen that have battery backups for their
home routers are fellow geeks.  I even bought one and shipped it to my
~70-year-old mother...and she just doesn't want to install it.  "Too
complicated".

> I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am
> by no means representative of the population at large in this particular
> area.
>

Same.  My home office has 3 Cyberpower 2500 VA double-conversion UPS units
backed by Champion transfer switches.  Power goes out, and ~45 seconds
later I'm running on generator power.
My local ISP runs out of power well before I do.  Thankfully there's
Starlink.

Short of an asteroid hitting my office, it's highly unlikely I'll ever be
offline. ;)

-A

Re: home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Andy Ringsmuth

> On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi NANOG mailing list,
>  
> I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages 
> affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 
> (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers 
> to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power 
> outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who 
> subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on 
> the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what 
> percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home 
> modem/router or use an external UPS?
>  
> Thanks.
> Scott

Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect 
the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I 
honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for 
their internet infrastructure.

I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no 
means representative of the population at large in this particular area.

Andy Ringsmuth
5609 Harding Drive
Lincoln, NE 68521-5831
(402) 304-0083
a...@andyring.com

home router battery backup

2022-01-12 Thread Scott T Anderson via NANOG

Hi NANOG mailing list,

I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages 
affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 
CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to 
purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As 
this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice 
services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of 
battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users 
actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external 
UPS?

Thanks.
Scott

Reference for 47 CFR Section 9.20: 
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-H/section-9.20

Re: SRv6 Capable NOS and Devices

2022-01-12 Thread Dale W. Carder

Thus spake Sander Steffann (san...@steffann.nl) on Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 
06:21:25PM +0100:
> Hi,
> 
> > No SRv6 is MPLS labeling where label is carried inside IP instead
> > before the IP header. Layering violation which increases complexity
> > and cost for no other purpose except dishonest marketing about 'it is
> > IP, you already understand it, MPLS is hard'.
> 
> What worries me more is the opportunity for adversaries to inject SRv6 
> packets. MPLS is not enabled by default on most router interfaces, so an 
> adversary would have to have access to an interface where MPLS processing is 
> explicitly enabled. IPv6 packet processing on the other hand… Unless an 
> operator has airtight protection on every interface to block unwanted SRv6 
> headers I see some interesting opportunities to cause havoc :)

You are not alone, see for example the thread at
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/GbWiie-bjQ_Bp1JKB1PlDh_fPdc/ 
this is more pronounced with respect to the various SRv6 compression scheme 
proposals.

Dale

Re: SRv6 Capable NOS and Devices

2022-01-12 Thread Sander Steffann

Hi,

> No SRv6 is MPLS labeling where label is carried inside IP instead
> before the IP header. Layering violation which increases complexity
> and cost for no other purpose except dishonest marketing about 'it is
> IP, you already understand it, MPLS is hard'.

What worries me more is the opportunity for adversaries to inject SRv6 packets. 
MPLS is not enabled by default on most router interfaces, so an adversary would 
have to have access to an interface where MPLS processing is explicitly 
enabled. IPv6 packet processing on the other hand… Unless an operator has 
airtight protection on every interface to block unwanted SRv6 headers I see 
some interesting opportunities to cause havoc :)

Cheers,
Sander

Re: Useful ping targets for end-users?

2022-01-12 Thread Ben Arblaster

> Does anyone curate a list of “useful” ICMP responders that are at least 
> kinda-sorta reliable/expected to continue responding?

RIPE Atlas anchors are useful for this kind of thing

https://atlas.ripe.net/anchors/list/
-- 
Ben Arblaster

Re: SRv6 Capable NOS and Devices

2022-01-12 Thread Saku Ytti

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 18:20,  wrote:

> Like ytti (saku) mentioned, with SR/SPRING the IGP is finally carrying the 
> Label/Sid, so we no longer need a label distribution mechanism running 
> alongside the IGP (don't need LDP or RSVP).  And for SRv6 vice SR-MPLS, the 
> SID is now the IPv6 address, and not the MPLS Label.  So we don't even need 
> MPLS, but can accomplish network virtualization using a pure IPv6 core.  
> Reminds me of Cell Mode MPLS vs Frame Mode MPLS... whereas the ATM Cell 
> header VPI/VCI was repurposed as the MPLS label, until we went with straight 
> MPLS shim headers.

No SRv6 is MPLS labeling where label is carried inside IP instead
before the IP header. Layering violation which increases complexity
and cost for no other purpose except dishonest marketing about 'it is
IP, you already understand it, MPLS is hard'.

-- 
  ++ytti

RE: SRv6 Capable NOS and Devices

2022-01-12 Thread aaron1

I'm still growing in my understanding of SR-MPLS and SRv6 but I can say 
that about everything... seems like the one constant in life, and particularly 
network technology... is change.

Like ytti (saku) mentioned, with SR/SPRING the IGP is finally carrying the 
Label/Sid, so we no longer need a label distribution mechanism running 
alongside the IGP (don't need LDP or RSVP).  And for SRv6 vice SR-MPLS, the SID 
is now the IPv6 address, and not the MPLS Label.  So we don't even need MPLS, 
but can accomplish network virtualization using a pure IPv6 core.  Reminds me 
of Cell Mode MPLS vs Frame Mode MPLS... whereas the ATM Cell header VPI/VCI was 
repurposed as the MPLS label, until we went with straight MPLS shim headers.

In case you are interested, I put a video on my channel showing a quick look at 
SRv6.  Using Cisco CML, IOS-XR 7.2.2, IS-IS, only using FE80 link local 
addressing.  L3VPN to prove end to end Customer connectivity over SRv6.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrryHbjpnAc

The P node is quite interesting in it's ability to handle this with little to 
no additional protocols.

-Aaron

-Original Message-
From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Saku Ytti
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:35 AM
To: Adam Thompson 
Cc: NANOG 
Subject: Re: SRv6 Capable NOS and Devices

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 at 00:00, Adam Thompson  wrote:

> My question is, why do you think you need Segment Routing at all?  Is your 
> network so enormously large and/or complex that IS-IS (and/or MPLS-TE) isn't 
> capable of handling it?
> So far, SR looks like a solution in search of a problem, at least to me.

SR is terrific, SRv6 is snake-oil.

Everyone needs some type of tunnelling in most modern applications of the 
network. maybe for pseudowires, repair, l3 vpns, traffic engineering or just 
removing state and signalling from backbone.
Signalling labels via IGP is obviously better than via LDP.

--
  ++ytti

Call for Participation -- ICANN DNSSEC and Security Workshop for ICANN73 Community Forum

2022-01-12 Thread Jacques Latour

Hi all,
Happy new year!
8 weeks left before the next virtual ICANN DNSSEC & Security workshop. Let us 
know if you are interested to present.
Jacques

Call for Participation -- ICANN DNSSEC and Security Workshop for ICANN73  
Community Forum

In cooperation with the ICANN Security and Stability Advisory Committee (SSAC), 
we are planning a DNSSEC and Security Workshop for the ICANN73 Community Forum 
being held virtually from 05-10 March 2022 in the Atlantic Standard  Time Zone 
(UTC -4). This workshop date will be determined once ICANN creates a block 
schedule for us to follow; then we will be able to request a day and time. The 
DNSSEC and Security Workshop has been a part of ICANN meetings for several 
years and has provided a forum for both experienced and new people to meet, 
present and discuss current and future DNSSEC deployments.  For reference, the 
most recent session was held at the ICANN72 Annual General Meeting on Wednesday 
27 October 2021. The presentations and transcripts are available at 
https://72.schedule.icann.org/meetings/M24SJN375N2rcupnS,  
https://72.schedule.icann.org/meetings/NQMcvSwdLbpdGPaz6, and 
https://72.schedule.icann.org/meetings/9g4P3ceRA8FGS34Ei.

The DNSSEC Workshop Program Committee is developing a program.  Proposals will 
be considered for the following topic areas and included if space permits.  In 
addition, we welcome suggestions for additional topics either for inclusion in 
the ICANN72 workshop, or for consideration for future workshops.

1.  Global DNSSEC Activities Panel
For this panel, we are seeking participation from those who have been involved 
in DNSSEC deployment as well as from those who have not deployed DNSSEC but who 
have a keen interest in the challenges and benefits of deployment, including 
Root Key Signing Key (KSK) Rollover activities and plans.

2.  DNSSEC Best Practice
Now that DNSSEC has become an operational norm for many registries, registrars, 
and ISPs, what have we learned about how we manage DNSSEC?


  *   Do you still submit/accept DS records with Digest Type 1?
  *   What is the best practice around key roll-overs?
  *   What about Algorithm roll-overs?
  *   Do you use and support DNSKEY Algorithms 13-16?
  *   How often do you review your disaster recovery procedures?
  *   Is there operational familiarity within your customer support teams?
  *   What operational statistics have we gathered about DNSSEC?
  *   Are there experiences being documented in the form of best practices, or 
something similar, for transfer of signed zones?

Activities and issues related to DNSSEC in the DNS Root Zone are also desired.

3. DNSSEC Deployment Challenges
The program committee is seeking input from those that are interested in 
implementation of DNSSEC but have general or particular concerns with DNSSEC.  
In particular, we are seeking input from individuals that would be willing to 
participate in a panel that would discuss questions of the following nature:


  *   Are there any policies directly or indirectly impeding your DNSSEC 
deployment? (RRR model, CDS/CDNSKEY automation)
  *   What are your most significant concerns with DNSSEC, e.g., complexity, 
training, implementation, operation or something else?
  *   What do you expect DNSSEC to do for you and what doesn't it do?
  *   What do you see as the most important trade-offs with respect to doing or 
not doing DNSSEC?

4. Security Panel
The program committee is looking for presentations on DNS, DNSSEC and Routing 
topics that could impact the security and/or stability of the internet.

We are looking for presentations that cover implementation issues, challenges, 
opportunities and best practices for:


  *   Emerging threats that could impact the security and/or stability of the 
internet
  *   DoH and DoT
  *   RPKI (Resource Public Key Infrastructure)
  *   BGP routing & secure implementations
  *   MANRS ( Mutually Agreed Norms for Routing Security)
  *   Browser security – DNS, DNSSEC, DoH
  *   EMAIL & DNS related security – DMARC, DKIM, TLSA, etc…

If you are interested in participating, please send a brief (1-2 sentence) 
description of your proposed presentation to 
dnssec-security-works...@icann.org 
by COB Friday, January 21 2022

Thank you,

Kathy and Andrew
On behalf of the DNSSEC Workshop Program Committee:
Steve Crocker, Shinkuro
Mark Elkins, DNS/ZACR
Jacques Latour, .CA
Russ Mundy, Parsons
Ondrej Filip, CZ.NIC
Yoshiro Yoneya, JPRS
Fred Baker, ISC
Dan York, Internet Society

Re: Useful ping targets for end-users?

2022-01-12 Thread Sean Donelan


On Wed, 12 Jan 2022, Adam Thompson wrote:

Restatement: yes, there are much better ways to diagnose problems, but my
customer can only run ping & traceroute (and pathping, I suppose) and is
capable enough to run those tools and self-assess before calling me.


Back in the old days, when there was competition between ISPs, the ISPs 
you paid money used to have curated speed test targets on their networks. 
Because you were paying them, some people wanted evidence they were 
getting what they were paying for, that was the only one under their 
control when you didn't get what you were paying.


"Testing" connectivity to random places on the internet, which depends on 
that wierd thing called peering, would give you random results which no 
one would do anything about.


Step 1: Ask the ISP, which you are paying, for appropriate targets.

Re: Useful ping targets for end-users?

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 7:46 AM Dave Taht  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 7:37 AM Adam Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> Before you start reading, yes, I fully understand how silly this question
>> is.  But I need to give _*something*_ to a customer who has the ability
>> to run ping/traceroute but nothing else.  (And they have an intermittent
>> latency problem that we haven’t been able to isolate yet.)
>>
>
> Over on this enormous thread, a gang of dedicated openwrt developers have
> been attempting to build an automated latency with load sensing tool
> leveraging sch_cake, currently targetted at LTE. They've released a few
> versions of the tool in lua and shell, so far.
>
> Among other things, they've discovered that icmp type 13 (with a
> timestamp) actually works in many cases, and have a curated list mechanism,
> and
> means to kick out  and cope with various forms of responders.
>

oops, the link:

https://forum.openwrt.org/t/cakes-autorate-ingress/108848/


>
>>
>> Does anyone curate a list of “useful” ICMP responders that are at least
>> kinda-sorta reliable/expected to continue responding?  For example, all the
>> major anycast DNS cloud providers respond to ICMP, but I don’t really want
>> to tell my customer to ping an anycast IP address because the RTT results
>> will be useless data (for comparative purposes).
>>
>> I’m also not excited about providing random router IP address for what
>> should be obvious reasons.  There are some IPs that my routing paths that
>> should be stable, but between routing changes and control-plane policing,
>> those aren’t awesome.  I’m looking for IPs I can suggest that are well
>> outside my network.
>>
>>
>>
>> Restatement: yes, there are much better ways to diagnose problems, but my
>> customer can only run ping & traceroute (and pathping, I suppose) and is
>> capable enough to run those tools and self-assess before calling me.
>>
>>
>>
>> It sounds foolish to even ask, but maybe there’s a resource out there I
>> don’t know about…
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>> *Adam Thompson*
>> Consultant, Infrastructure Services
>> [image: MERLIN]
>> 100 - 135 Innovation Drive
>> Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
>> (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
>> athomp...@merlin.mb.ca
>> www.merlin.mb.ca
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
>
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>


-- 
I tried to build a better future, a few times:
https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org

Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: Useful ping targets for end-users?