on behalf of
Cynthia Revström via NANOG
Sent: 27 March 2021 11:20
To: Valdis Klētnieks
Cc: NANOG list
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Younger generations preferring social media(esque)
interactions.
(Not speaking for all younger people of course)
I often enjoy learning about issues in the past o
On 3/27/21 12:20, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote:
(not directed at anyone specifically)
I think for the people who are concerned about the younger generations
not having this knowledge, think of how to fix it rather than just
giving up on the younger generation.
Sure not everyone will
(Not speaking for all younger people of course)
I often enjoy learning about issues in the past or why some decision was
made the way it was.
Often this is best conveyed by people who have the context from having been
involved at the time.
I have asked some people in the past for context to
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 12:51:28 -0400, "Allen McKinley Kitchen (gmail)" said:
> how I am called on by younger peers and can remember things that the kids
> havenât had time to learn.
>
> Now that last one has no real network application .. but it makes me feel
> good.
Oh, there are *tons* of
On 3/25/21 18:51, Allen McKinley Kitchen (gmail) wrote:
And to push this point further:
I don’t claim to speak for all graybeards, but now that I am past the era of
enjoying my kids' school activities, and resting on an empty nest, I once again
don’t mind being involved in what younger
But obviously my experience and age has failed to break me of top-posting ..
sorry!
..Allen
> On Mar 25, 2021, at 12:51, Allen McKinley Kitchen (gmail)
> wrote:
>
> And to push this point further:
>
> I don’t claim to speak for all graybeards, but now that I am past the era of
> enjoying
And to push this point further:
I don’t claim to speak for all graybeards, but now that I am past the era of
enjoying my kids' school activities, and resting on an empty nest, I once again
don’t mind being involved in what younger engineers are doing far beyond “work
hours”. There are a few
On 3/24/21 5:57 PM, Bryan Fields wrote:
On 3/24/21 8:44 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
FWIW, nanog doesn't alter
messages. All lists have the option to follow suit.
It does. There's a setting in mailman that's enabled for the nanog list.
dmarc_moderation_action (privacy): Action to take when
On 3/24/21 17:59, Seth Mattinen wrote:
I think age has something to do with that too, and I don't mean this
as offensive at all because I've been there done that, but lack of
other things going on in life. When I was 19 I had no problem being
available on my cell phone at all times. I'd
On 3/24/21 8:44 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
> FWIW, nanog doesn't alter
> messages. All lists have the option to follow suit.
It does. There's a setting in mailman that's enabled for the nanog list.
dmarc_moderation_action (privacy): Action to take when anyone posts to the
list from a domain
On 3/24/21 5:38 PM, Bryan Fields wrote:
On 3/23/21 8:04 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
This has the unfortunate downside of teaching people not to pay
attention to the From: domain. For mailing lists maybe that's an OK
tradeoff, but it definitely not a good thing overall. I noticed that the
IETF
On 3/23/21 8:04 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
> This has the unfortunate downside of teaching people not to pay
> attention to the From: domain. For mailing lists maybe that's an OK
> tradeoff, but it definitely not a good thing overall. I noticed that the
> IETF list does From re-writing for DMARC
On 3/23/21 7:00 PM, Sec Lists wrote:
> To just give in (or up) and say, well, that's what the youngsters now
> prefer is to move even more towards a world dominated by a few global
> monopolistic players who don't give a darn about open standards, open
> protocols, not locking people in,
On 3/24/21 17:51, james.cut...@consultant.com wrote:
An extension of Mark’s comments could include actually using a voice
call if there really is an immediate need — voice message recording is
built-in to many smart phones, wireless handsets, and VoIP services. .
And this is where - per
On 3/24/21 8:08 AM, Phineas wrote:
Chiming in as a somewhat-younger network engineer here (19) - I think
that Discord should be more widely considered and approved as an option
across the board here. I’m active on mailing lists, and while they work,
at the end of the day I’d much rather be
> On Mar 24, 2021, at 11:43 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>
>
>
> On 3/24/21 17:31, Tom Beecher wrote:
>
>> Real time can be helpful when needed, but when it is not, it feels to me
>> like it becomes significant noise, and often times impossible to track what
>> conversations are when (and when
On 3/24/21 17:43, Mark Tinka wrote:
Time is very precious; if you feel something is urgent, call. Sending
me a text and getting cross because I didn't reply in 60 seconds just
falls on deaf ears. As you say, time is our main asset.
And I afford anyone I text the exact same courtesy as
On 3/24/21 17:31, Tom Beecher wrote:
Real time can be helpful when needed, but when it is not, it feels to
me like it becomes significant noise, and often times impossible to
track what conversations are when (and when they were.).
I agree with this when it comes to messaging apps.
I
Thanks for chiming in Phineas.
Just for the sake of clarity, the platform that NANOG is considering is
Discourse ( https://www.discourse.org/ ) , not Discord (
https://discord.com/ ) .
They are different use cases, for sure. Primary difference being one is for
real time communication, and one is
On 3/24/21 17:08, Phineas wrote:
Chiming in as a somewhat-younger network engineer here (19) - I think
that Discord should be more widely considered and approved as an
option across the board here. I’m active on mailing lists, and while
they work, at the end of the day I’d much rather be
On 3/24/21 16:52, Robert Kisteleki wrote:
All in all, I'm happier if email continues to be the backbone of
communication here.
Same here.
But think about this... every smartphone the kids have comes with either
an e-mail client, a web browser, or both.
Plenty of free e-mail services
On 3/24/21 01:00, Sec Lists wrote:
...only to end up with yet another account at yet another data mining
(future) monopolist butchering standards... I'm all for moving with
the flow and embrace new things as long as it's based on open
standards, open protocols, does not lock people in to
Chiming in as a somewhat-younger network engineer here (19) - I think that
Discord should be more widely considered and approved as an option across
the board here. I’m active on mailing lists, and while they work, at the
end of the day I’d much rather be using an app like Discord, and I know
this
[...]
Keeping it simple so you can reach your result faster and most
efficiently is often understood more by the kids than us geezers.
While we are fighting about whether Discourse or Mailman are
appropriate, the kids have probably dumped both and found something
that gets them to the
On Mon, 22 Mar 2021, 18:56 Grant Taylor via NANOG, wrote:
> On 3/21/21 8:03 AM, Noah wrote:
> > Well baby boomers & gen-x will struggle to dump mail...I mean it simple
> > and just works.
>
> Indeed.
>
> There's also the fact that it comes to you as opposed to you going to it.
>
> > We were
Hi,
On 23.03.2021 14:49, Mark Tinka wrote:
[...]
Keeping it simple so you can reach your result faster and most
efficiently is often understood more by the kids than us geezers.
While we are fighting about whether Discourse or Mailman are
appropriate, the kids have probably dumped both and
>>> I am not going to lament much, either. It is just how it goes. On the
>>> brighter side, there will also be a minority, who will come to email
>>> exactly because they will be aspiring power users. I think there will
>>> always be some aspiring power users, so it is not going to be only bad.
On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 10:32:20AM +0200, Mark Tinka wrote:
>
>
> On 3/23/21 02:22, Tomasz Rola wrote:
>
> >I am not going to lament much, either. It is just how it goes. On the
> >brighter side, there will also be a minority, who will come to email
> >exactly because they will be aspiring
On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:34:37 -0600, Grant Taylor via NANOG said:
> On 3/23/21 4:16 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
> > But they still have the originating domain's From: address.
>
> My opinion is that messages from the mailing list should not have the
> originating domain in the From: address. The
On 3/23/21 4:34 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote:
On 3/23/21 4:16 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
But they still have the originating domain's From: address.
My opinion is that messages from the mailing list should not have the
originating domain in the From: address. The message from the
On 3/23/21 4:16 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
But they still have the originating domain's From: address.
My opinion is that messages from the mailing list should not have the
originating domain in the From: address. The message from the mailing
list should be from the mailing list's domain.
On 3/23/21 2:55 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote:
On 3/23/21 1:40 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
The big problem with mailing lists is that they screw up security by
changing the subject/body and breaking DKIM signatures.
What you are describing is a capability, configuration, execution
issue
On 3/23/21 1:40 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
The big problem with mailing lists is that they screw up security by
changing the subject/body and breaking DKIM signatures.
What you are describing is a capability, configuration, execution issue
with the mailing list manager software.
Said another
On 3/23/21 1:44 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson via NANOG wrote:
On Mon, 22 Mar 2021, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote:
If it's the latter, does that mean that you have to constantly keep
changing /where/ messages are sent to in order to keep up with the
latest and greatest or at least most popular (in
On 3/23/21 8:26 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 3/23/21 17:11, Seth Mattinen wrote:
Okay great for those apps, but if nobody tells me where the new action
is... how does that help me? With the list here at least it's on
NANOG's website and they tell you how to join in.
This feels like you're
> On 3/22/21 11:22 PM, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> As someone from a "younger generation" (2001) who does use mailing lists,
>> semi-actively participates in RIPE mailing lists but also created a network
>> community on Discord, I want to chime in here.
>>
>> > Are they
On 3/22/21 11:22 PM, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote:
Hi,
As someone from a "younger generation" (2001) who does use mailing
lists, semi-actively participates in RIPE mailing lists but also
created a network community on Discord, I want to chime in here.
> Are they willing to use a
On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 02:46, Cynthia Revström via NANOG
wrote:
>
> I have used Mattermost but iirc it has very limited access control unless you
> have the enterprise version and generally doesn't seem to be made for public
> groups.
I'm going to chime in here since I admin the DNS-OARC
On 3/23/21 17:11, Seth Mattinen wrote:
Okay great for those apps, but if nobody tells me where the new action
is... how does that help me? With the list here at least it's on
NANOG's website and they tell you how to join in.
This feels like you're saying people are not worthy of being
On 3/23/21 7:40 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 3/23/21 16:34, Seth Mattinen wrote:
The problem with other "social" formats I've found is that they're
often an exclusive club you have to know about through connections or
be invited to. You can also be excluded on a whim.
What you can learn from
On 3/23/21 16:34, Seth Mattinen wrote:
The problem with other "social" formats I've found is that they're
often an exclusive club you have to know about through connections or
be invited to. You can also be excluded on a whim.
What you can learn from that is the new brand marketing
On 3/22/21 11:22 PM, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote:
I haven't ever used facebook beyond receiving some invitation for an
event, and I feel like that's the most common case for people around my
age group. (not using Facebook that is)
Facebook has effectively become social media for old
On 3/23/21 11:35, Cynthia Revström wrote:
I think this is at least partially true, but I think it is more not
wanting to be disrespected at the time they ask these questions.
No one was born with this kind of knowledge, and everyone was clueless
at some point in time.
Totally agree.
It is
> Many new, young engineers will also feel more comfortable posting on message
> apps because the group is small, well-known and reasonably private, i.e.,
> they are less afraid about sounding clueless to the whole world, on record,
> forever.
I think this is at least partially true, but I
For persons considering mattermost, I would recommend instead looking into
a self hosted Matrix + Synapse (matrix protocol server daemon) setup, which
is fully open source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)
Element is one typical GUI client for it, but there are many options.
On Mon, 22 Mar 2021, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote:
If it's the latter, does that mean that you have to constantly keep
changing /where/ messages are sent to in order to keep up with the
latest and greatest or at least most popular (in your audience) flavor
of the day / week / month / year
On 3/23/21 08:22, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote:
Using a chat system they are already familiar with to ask more casual
questions is a lot easier for some.
Especially if you are thinking of people who are just starting out,
some of which will be part of the next generation of network
On 3/23/21 02:22, Tomasz Rola wrote:
I am not going to lament much, either. It is just how it goes. On the
brighter side, there will also be a minority, who will come to email
exactly because they will be aspiring power users. I think there will
always be some aspiring power users, so it is
On 3/22/21 17:55, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote:
Part of my struggle is that I fail to see how it scales to poll
multiple sites (or app icon notifications) when there are 10s, 100s,
or even more things to check. This is /exactly/ one of the reasons
that I *strongly* /prefer/ email, it
I have used Mattermost but iirc it has very limited access control unless
you have the enterprise version and generally doesn't seem to be made for
public groups.
This in addition to probably the main problem, it will have higher barrier
to entry especially for those already using Discord for
On Tue, 2021-03-23 at 07:22 +0100, Cynthia Revström via NANOG wrote:
> Because Discord is proprietary, you can't host your own instance
For reasons of confidentiality we implemented a MatterMost server for
company use. It is free, works well, runs on our own servers. It lacks
some of the bells
Hi,
As someone from a "younger generation" (2001) who does use mailing lists,
semi-actively participates in RIPE mailing lists but also created a network
community on Discord, I want to chime in here.
> Are they willing to use a (traditional) forum (of sorts) that is
dedicated to the venue? Or
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 09:55:02AM -0600, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote:
> On 3/21/21 8:03 AM, Noah wrote:
> >Well baby boomers & gen-x will struggle to dump mail...I mean it
> >simple and just works.
>
> Indeed.
>
> There's also the fact that it comes to you as opposed to you going to it.
>
>
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