RE: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Robert DeVita]

The biggest difference we see is that the “non commercial” IX’s are now 
building metro fabrics across multiple different datacenter providers. When you 
look at the costs, you need to look at the colo as part of that cost also. 
Allowing datacenters to compete for space and power drives down the costs for 
end users while also allowing them to connect to the fabric.

[https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/c4ed298e-00ea-415c-8059-9ce09ac88788/logo/f3a10962-7bab-4600-a5fa-560682049597.jpg/:/rs=h:125]

Robert DeVita

Managing Director

p:

214-305-2444

e:

radev...@mejeticks.com<mailto:radev...@mejeticks.com>

[http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/184235/dev_images/signature_app/linkedin_sig.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/in/radevita/>




From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:11 AM
To: Darin Steffl 
Cc: NANOG Mailing List 
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

Someone's typically paying the difference in a non-profit IX. Someone's 
donating piles of cash, free dark fiber, free colo, etc. You're either paying 
your own way, or you have a port subsidized by someone else. There's not 
necessarily anything wrong with that, but you have to make sure you count that 
when you talk about "cost".

They're also over twice the size, and in half the number of buildings (per 
PeeringDB, anyway). They've also been around over twice as long. Scale helps 
with cost.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

From: "Darin Steffl" mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>>
To: "Mike Hammett" mailto:na...@ics-il.net>>
Cc: "Mehmet Akcin" mailto:meh...@akcin.net>>, "NANOG Mailing 
List" mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:34:32 AM
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
http://micemn.net/services.html

MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their port fees are very 
reasonable. They used to be completely free up until this year. Even so, their 
fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to connect to it 
versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as much as transit.

For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G port but MICE is only $250 
per year. That's a HUGE difference and MICE also has way more peers and traffic 
overall due to how easy and cheap it is to join.

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:27 AM Mike Hammett 
mailto:na...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless of 
what it costs. ;-)

At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up once 
they're on the IX.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

From: "Mehmet Akcin" mailto:meh...@akcin.net>>
To: "Clayton Zekelman" mailto:clay...@mnsi.net>>
Cc: "Mike Hammett" mailto:na...

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Jay Hanke]

MICE is technically a cooperative not a non-profit. The fees cover the
costs and just the costs and the members are owners.

Also MICE does not provide any transport. All transport to remote locations
is provided by the network hosting the remote switch.

Jay

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018, 9:16 AM Mike Hammett  Someone's typically paying the difference in a non-profit IX. Someone's
> donating piles of cash, free dark fiber, free colo, etc. You're either
> paying your own way, or you have a port subsidized by someone else. There's
> not necessarily anything wrong with that, but you have to make sure you
> count that when you talk about "cost".
>
> They're also over twice the size, and in half the number of buildings (per
> PeeringDB, anyway). They've also been around over twice as long. Scale
> helps with cost.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
> *From: *"Darin Steffl" 
> *To: *"Mike Hammett" 
> *Cc: *"Mehmet Akcin" , "NANOG Mailing List" <
> nanog@nanog.org>
> *Sent: *Friday, December 21, 2018 8:34:32 AM
> *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
>
> http://micemn.net/services.html
>
> MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their port fees are
> very reasonable. They used to be completely free up until this year. Even
> so, their fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to
> connect to it versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as
> much as transit.
>
> For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G port but MICE is only
> $250 per year. That's a HUGE difference and MICE also has way more peers
> and traffic overall due to how easy and cheap it is to join.
>
> On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:27 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless
>> of what it costs. ;-)
>>
>> At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up
>> once they're on the IX.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>> --
>> *From: *"Mehmet Akcin" 
>> *To: *"Clayton Zekelman" 
>> *Cc: *"Mike Hammett" , "NANOG Mailing List" <
>> nanog@nanog.org>, "Tim Raphael" 
>> *Sent: *Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
>>
>> Torix and Six are great examples.
>>
>> If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep
>> it fair. Transit is cheap and good quality
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful.
>>>
>>> https://www.torix.ca/
>>>
>>> A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service.
>>>
>>> Thave a very transparent process.  Their pricing is listed up front on
>>> their website:
>>>
>>> https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>
>>> As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which
>>> they're housed. People in N

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Mike Hammett]

I think anyone not Equinix, DRT, CoreSite, etc. is building into multiple 
datacenter providers in their markets, some just more aggressively than others. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Robert DeVita"  
To: "Mike Hammett" , "Darin Steffl"  
Cc: "NANOG Mailing List"  
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:37:52 AM 
Subject: RE: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX 



The biggest difference we see is that the “non commercial” IX’s are now 
building metro fabrics across multiple different datacenter providers. When you 
look at the costs, you need to look at the colo as part of that cost also. 
Allowing datacenters to compete for space and power drives down the costs for 
end users while also allowing them to connect to the fabric. 



https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/c4ed298e-00ea-415c-8059-9ce09ac88788/logo/f3a10962-7bab-4600-a5fa-560682049597.jpg/:/rs=h:125
  

Robert DeVita 

Managing Director 

p:  
214-305-2444 

e:  
radev...@mejeticks.com 

http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/184235/dev_images/signature_app/linkedin_sig.png




From: NANOG < nanog-boun...@nanog.org > On Behalf Of Mike Hammett 
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:11 AM 
To: Darin Steffl < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > 
Cc: NANOG Mailing List < nanog@nanog.org > 
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX 


Someone's typically paying the difference in a non-profit IX. Someone's 
donating piles of cash, free dark fiber, free colo, etc. You're either paying 
your own way, or you have a port subsidized by someone else. There's not 
necessarily anything wrong with that, but you have to make sure you count that 
when you talk about "cost". 



They're also over twice the size, and in half the number of buildings (per 
PeeringDB, anyway). They've also been around over twice as long. Scale helps 
with cost. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -


From: "Darin Steffl" < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > 
To: "Mike Hammett" < na...@ics-il.net > 
Cc: "Mehmet Akcin" < meh...@akcin.net >, "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org 
> 
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:34:32 AM 
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX 


http://micemn.net/services.html 



MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their port fees are very 
reasonable. They used to be completely free up until this year. Even so, their 
fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to connect to it 
versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as much as transit. 



For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G port but MICE is only $250 
per year. That's a HUGE difference and MICE also has way more peers and traffic 
overall due to how easy and cheap it is to join. 



On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:27 AM Mike Hammett < na...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless of 
what it costs. ;-) 

At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up once 
they're on the IX. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




From: "Mehmet Akcin" < meh...@akcin.net > 
To: "Clayton Zekelman" < clay...@mnsi.net > 
Cc: "Mike Hammett" < na...@ics-il.net >, "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org 
>, "Tim Raphael" < raphael.timo...@gmail.com > 
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM 
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX 


Torix and Six are great examples. 



If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep it 
fair. Transit is cheap and good quality 




On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman < clay...@mnsi.net > wrote: 




TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful. 

https://www.torix.ca/ 

A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service. 

Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on their 
website: 

https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing 



At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote: 


As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're 
housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, 
DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 


From: "Tim Raphael" < raphael.timo...@gmail.com > 
To: "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org > 
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM 
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-p

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Mike Hammett]

Someone's typically paying the difference in a non-profit IX. Someone's 
donating piles of cash, free dark fiber, free colo, etc. You're either paying 
your own way, or you have a port subsidized by someone else. There's not 
necessarily anything wrong with that, but you have to make sure you count that 
when you talk about "cost". 


They're also over twice the size, and in half the number of buildings (per 
PeeringDB, anyway). They've also been around over twice as long. Scale helps 
with cost. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Darin Steffl"  
To: "Mike Hammett"  
Cc: "Mehmet Akcin" , "NANOG Mailing List"  
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:34:32 AM 
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX 



http://micemn.net/services.html 



MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their port fees are very 
reasonable. They used to be completely free up until this year. Even so, their 
fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to connect to it 
versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as much as transit. 


For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G port but MICE is only $250 
per year. That's a HUGE difference and MICE also has way more peers and traffic 
overall due to how easy and cheap it is to join. 


On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:27 AM Mike Hammett < na...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless of 
what it costs. ;-) 

At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up once 
they're on the IX. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 



From: "Mehmet Akcin" < meh...@akcin.net > 
To: "Clayton Zekelman" < clay...@mnsi.net > 
Cc: "Mike Hammett" < na...@ics-il.net >, "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org 
>, "Tim Raphael" < raphael.timo...@gmail.com > 
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM 
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX 



Torix and Six are great examples. 


If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep it 
fair. Transit is cheap and good quality 



On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman < clay...@mnsi.net > wrote: 




TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful. 

https://www.torix.ca/ 

A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service. 

Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on their 
website: 

https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing 



At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote: 


As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're 
housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, 
DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 


From: "Tim Raphael" < raphael.timo...@gmail.com > 
To: "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org > 
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM 
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX 

The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer 
services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit margins or 
ROI as for-profits. 
This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer 
customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or 
transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away 
at the monopolies in niche markets. 

The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and 
the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique 
constraints. 

Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my mind, 
there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality. 
When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in 
organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures 
accountability reliability. 






- Tim 


> On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns < br...@2mbit.com > wrote: 
> 
> On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote: 
>> Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit enterprise 
>> then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If you're non-profit 
>> the perception is that there is a larger value because there's no bump. 
>> Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard. 
> 
> Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the 
> hospitals are here in Boise. 
> 
> The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, pr

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Darin Steffl]

http://micemn.net/services.html

MICE in Minneapolis is a great IX that we are on and their port fees are
very reasonable. They used to be completely free up until this year. Even
so, their fees are virtually nothing which encourages more operators to
connect to it versus For-Profit IX's where sometimes the fees are almost as
much as transit.

For example Midwest-IX is $9,300 per year for a 10G port but MICE is only
$250 per year. That's a HUGE difference and MICE also has way more peers
and traffic overall due to how easy and cheap it is to join.

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:27 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless
> of what it costs. ;-)
>
> At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up once
> they're on the IX.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
> *From: *"Mehmet Akcin" 
> *To: *"Clayton Zekelman" 
> *Cc: *"Mike Hammett" , "NANOG Mailing List" <
> nanog@nanog.org>, "Tim Raphael" 
> *Sent: *Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM
> *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
>
> Torix and Six are great examples.
>
> If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep
> it fair. Transit is cheap and good quality
>
> On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman  wrote:
>
>>
>> TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful.
>>
>> https://www.torix.ca/
>>
>> A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service.
>>
>> Thave a very transparent process.  Their pricing is listed up front on
>> their website:
>>
>> https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing
>>
>>
>>
>> At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:
>>
>> As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're
>> housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes,
>> Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>>
>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>>
>> --
>> *From: *"Tim Raphael" 
>> *To: *"NANOG Mailing List" 
>> *Sent: *Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
>>
>> The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and
>> offer services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit
>> margins or ROI as for-profits.
>> This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and
>> fewer customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased
>> aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of
>> providers and chips away at the monopolies in niche markets.
>>
>> The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader
>> community and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia
>> which has unique constraints.
>>
>> Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my
>> mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total
>> neutrality.
>> When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency
>> in organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures
>> accountability reliability.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Tim
>>
>>
>> > On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns  wrote:
>> >
>> > On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
>> >> Probably price.  Also perception of value.  If you're a for profit
>> enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump.  If
>> you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because
>

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Mike Hammett]

Not all transit is cheap and not all transit is good quality, regardless of 
what it costs. ;-) 

At our IX, we regularly see clients whose total network usage goes up once 
they're on the IX. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Mehmet Akcin"  
To: "Clayton Zekelman"  
Cc: "Mike Hammett" , "NANOG Mailing List" , 
"Tim Raphael"  
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:19:43 AM 
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX 



Torix and Six are great examples. 


If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep it 
fair. Transit is cheap and good quality 



On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman < clay...@mnsi.net > wrote: 




TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful. 

https://www.torix.ca/ 

A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service. 

Thave a very transparent process. Their pricing is listed up front on their 
website: 

https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing 



At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote: 


As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're 
housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, 
DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 


From: "Tim Raphael" < raphael.timo...@gmail.com > 
To: "NANOG Mailing List" < nanog@nanog.org > 
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM 
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX 

The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer 
services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit margins or 
ROI as for-profits. 
This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer 
customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or 
transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away 
at the monopolies in niche markets. 

The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and 
the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique 
constraints. 

Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my mind, 
there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality. 
When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in 
organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures 
accountability reliability. 






- Tim 


> On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns < br...@2mbit.com > wrote: 
> 
> On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote: 
>> Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit enterprise 
>> then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If you're non-profit 
>> the perception is that there is a larger value because there's no bump. 
>> Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard. 
> 
> Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the 
> hospitals are here in Boise. 
> 
> The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc. Their care 
> can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent 
> clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit). 
> 
> The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better 
> value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one another for 
> who has the best service. 
> 
> People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that 
> is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd be very 
> very wrong. 
> -- 
> Brielle Bruns 
> The Summit Open Source Development Group 
> http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org 
> 





-- 

Clayton Zekelman 
Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi) 
3363 Tecumseh Rd. E 
Windsor, Ontario 
N8W 1H4 

tel. 519-985-8410 
fax. 519-985-8409 

-- 

Mehmet 
+1-424-298-1903 

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Jason Lixfeld]

New rates for 2019 just posted yesterday!  Get yer ports while they’re hot!

> On Dec 21, 2018, at 9:14 AM, Clayton Zekelman  wrote:
> 
> 
> TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful.
> 
> https://www.torix.ca/ <https://www.torix.ca/> 
> 
> A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service.
> 
> Thave a very transparent process.  Their pricing is listed up front on their 
> website:
> 
> https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing <https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing>
> 
> 
> 
> At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:
>> As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're 
>> housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, 
>> Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>> 
>> From: "Tim Raphael" 
>> To: "NANOG Mailing List" 
>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
>> 
>> The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and 
>> offer services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit 
>> margins or ROI as for-profits.
>> This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer 
>> customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or 
>> transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips 
>> away at the monopolies in niche markets.
>> 
>> The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community 
>> and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has 
>> unique constraints.
>> 
>> Additionally, “Neutral” and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my 
>> mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total 
>> neutrality.
>> When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in 
>> organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures 
>> accountability reliability.
>> 
>> - Tim
>> 
>> 
>> > On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns  wrote:
>> > 
>> > On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
>> >> Probably price.  Also perception of value.  If you're a for profit 
>> >> enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump.  If 
>> >> you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because 
>> >> there's no bump.  Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the 
>> >> perception I've heard.
>> > 
>> > Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the 
>> > hospitals are here in Boise.
>> > 
>> > The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc.  Their 
>> > care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little 
>> > independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
>> > 
>> > The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, 
>> > better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one 
>> > another for who has the best service.
>> > 
>> > People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place 
>> > that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd 
>> > be very very wrong.
>> > -- 
>> > Brielle Bruns
>> > The Summit Open Source Development Group
>> > http://www.sosdg.org <http://www.sosdg.org/> / http://www.ahbl.org 
>> > <http://www.ahbl.org/> 
>> > 
>> 
>> 
> -- 
> 
> Clayton Zekelman
> Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi)
> 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E
> Windsor, Ontario
> N8W 1H4
> 
> tel. 519-985-8410
> fax. 519-985-8409
> 

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Mehmet Akcin]

Torix and Six are great examples.

If you want to be for profit, make sure to publish port pricing and keep it
fair. Transit is cheap and good quality

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 08:14 Clayton Zekelman  wrote:

>
> TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful.
>
> https://www.torix.ca/
>
> A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service.
>
> Thave a very transparent process.  Their pricing is listed up front on
> their website:
>
> https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing
>
>
>
> At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:
>
> As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're
> housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes,
> Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>
> --
> *From: *"Tim Raphael" 
> *To: *"NANOG Mailing List" 
> *Sent: *Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX
>
> The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and
> offer services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit
> margins or ROI as for-profits.
> This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer
> customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or
> transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips
> away at the monopolies in niche markets.
>
> The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community
> and the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has
> unique constraints.
>
> Additionally, “Neutral†and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my
> mind, there will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total
> neutrality.
> When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in
> organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures
> accountability reliability.
>
>
>
> - Tim
>
>
> > On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns  wrote:
> >
> > On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
> >> Probably price.  Also perception of value.  If you're a for profit
> enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump.  If
> you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because
> there's no bump.  Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the
> perception I've heard.
> >
> > Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how
> the hospitals are here in Boise.
> >
> > The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc.  Their
> care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent
> clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
> >
> > The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship,
> better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one
> another for who has the best service.
> >
> > People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place
> that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd
> be very very wrong.
> > --
> > Brielle Bruns
> > The Summit Open Source Development Group
> > http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Clayton Zekelman
> Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi)
> 3363 Tecumseh Rd. E
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4=gmail=g>
> Windsor, Ontario
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4=gmail=g>
> N8W 1H4
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=3363+Tecumseh+Rd.+E+%0D%0AWindsor,+Ontario+%0D%0AN8W+1H4=gmail=g>
>
> tel. 519-985-8410
> fax. 519-985-8409
>
-- 
Mehmet
+1-424-298-1903

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Clayton Zekelman]

TorIX is a great example of a not for profit IX that is very successful.

https://www.torix.ca/

A very dedicated team of people provide an incredible level of service.

Thave a very transparent process.  Their pricing 
is listed up front on their website:


https://www.torix.ca/peering/#pricing



At 09:03 AM 21/12/2018, Mike Hammett wrote:
As far as neutral, I meant separate from the 
datacenters in which they're housed. People in 
NA seem to think there are only two kinds of 
IXes, Equinix, DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types.




-
Mike Hammett
<http://www.ics-il.com/>Intelligent Computing Solutions

<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>Midwest Internet Exchange

<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>The Brothers WISP


--
From: "Tim Raphael" 
To: "NANOG Mailing List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

The other point to consider is that a NFP can 
justify more locations and offer services (such 
as extended reach) that don’t have the same 
profit margins or ROI as for-profits.
This often leads to greater value to those with 
smaller networks and fewer customers allowing 
them to grow and expand without increased 
aggregation or transit costs. This in-turn leads 
to a richer array of providers and chips away at 
the monopolies in niche markets.


The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing 
value to the broader community and the Internet 
as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique constraints.


Additionally, “Neutral” and For-Profit 
doesn’t always compute in my mind, there will 
always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality.
When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has 
to be 100% transparency in organisational 
decisions around member funds and resources 
which ensures accountability reliability.


- Tim


> On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns  wrote:
>
> On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
>> Probably price.  Also perception of 
value.  If you're a for profit enterprise then 
they're paying for interconnection plus your 
bump.  If you're non-profit the perception is 
that there is a larger value because there's no 
bump.  Whether that's true or not, who knows 
but that's the perception I've heard.

>
> Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd 
almost compare it to how the hospitals are here in Boise.

>
> The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, 
price gouging, etc.  Their care can be pretty 
meh, esp since they bought up all the little 
independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).

>
> The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals 
run a pretty tight ship, better value for their 
money, service is very good, and compete with 
one another for who has the best service.

>
> People think they are getting 'better' 
because they are going to a place that is 
supposed to be run to benefit people over 
profit, but alas, you'd be very very wrong.

> --
> Brielle Bruns
> The Summit Open Source Development Group
> http://www.sosdg.org/ http://www.ahbl.org
>




--

Clayton Zekelman
Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi)
3363 Tecumseh Rd. E
Windsor, Ontario
N8W 1H4

tel. 519-985-8410
fax. 519-985-8409

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Mike Hammett]

As far as neutral, I meant separate from the datacenters in which they're 
housed. People in NA seem to think there are only two kinds of IXes, Equinix, 
DRT, Coresite types and NWAX, SIX, MICE types. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Tim Raphael"  
To: "NANOG Mailing List"  
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:39:42 PM 
Subject: Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX 

The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer 
services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit margins or 
ROI as for-profits. 
This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer 
customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or 
transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away 
at the monopolies in niche markets. 

The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and 
the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique 
constraints. 

Additionally, “Neutral” and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my mind, there 
will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality. 
When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in 
organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures 
accountability reliability. 

- Tim 


> On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns  wrote: 
> 
> On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote: 
>> Probably price. Also perception of value. If you're a for profit enterprise 
>> then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump. If you're non-profit 
>> the perception is that there is a larger value because there's no bump. 
>> Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the perception I've heard. 
> 
> Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the 
> hospitals are here in Boise. 
> 
> The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc. Their care 
> can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent 
> clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit). 
> 
> The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better 
> value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one another for 
> who has the best service. 
> 
> People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that 
> is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd be very 
> very wrong. 
> -- 
> Brielle Bruns 
> The Summit Open Source Development Group 
> http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org 
> 

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Tim Raphael]

The other point to consider is that a NFP can justify more locations and offer 
services (such as extended reach) that don’t have the same profit margins or 
ROI as for-profits.
This often leads to greater value to those with smaller networks and fewer 
customers allowing them to grow and expand without increased aggregation or 
transit costs. This in-turn leads to a richer array of providers and chips away 
at the monopolies in niche markets.

The NFP IXP I work for focuses on providing value to the broader community and 
the Internet as a whole - especially somewhere like Australia which has unique 
constraints.

Additionally, “Neutral” and For-Profit doesn’t always compute in my mind, there 
will always be commercial alliances that lead to not-total neutrality.
When a NFP is owned by it’s members there has to be 100% transparency in 
organisational decisions around member funds and resources which ensures 
accountability reliability.

- Tim


> On 21 Dec 2018, at 3:58 am, Brielle Bruns  wrote:
> 
> On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
>> Probably price.  Also perception of value.  If you're a for profit 
>> enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump.  If 
>> you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because 
>> there's no bump.  Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the 
>> perception I've heard.
> 
> Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how the 
> hospitals are here in Boise.
> 
> The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc.  Their care 
> can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little independent 
> clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).
> 
> The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, better 
> value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one another for 
> who has the best service.
> 
> People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place that 
> is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, you'd be very 
> very wrong.
> -- 
> Brielle Bruns
> The Summit Open Source Development Group
> http://www.sosdg.org/ http://www.ahbl.org
> 

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Brielle Bruns]

On 12/20/2018 12:51 PM, Aaron wrote:
Probably price.  Also perception of value.  If you're a for profit 
enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump.  If 
you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because 
there's no bump.  Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the 
perception I've heard.


Depending on the size of the non-profit, I'd almost compare it to how 
the hospitals are here in Boise.


The non-profits are oversized, monopolistic, price gouging, etc.  Their 
care can be pretty meh, esp since they bought up all the little 
independent clinics (yay, ER pricing for a basic family clinic visit).


The for-profit smaller clinics and hospitals run a pretty tight ship, 
better value for their money, service is very good, and compete with one 
another for who has the best service.


People think they are getting 'better' because they are going to a place 
that is supposed to be run to benefit people over profit, but alas, 
you'd be very very wrong.

--
Brielle Bruns
The Summit Open Source Development Group
http://www.sosdg.org/ http://www.ahbl.org

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 at 13:44, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> What are your thoughts on why a network would join a non-profit IX, but not a 
> neutral, for-profit IX? Let's assume that traffic levels are similar.

But are traffic levels actually similar?  Most areas have one or the
other dominating the field, so, which one you join usually depends on
other (more pressing) factors.

C.

Re: Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Aaron]

Probably price.  Also perception of value.  If you're a for profit 
enterprise then they're paying for interconnection plus your bump.  If 
you're non-profit the perception is that there is a larger value because 
there's no bump.  Whether that's true or not, who knows but that's the 
perception I've heard.



On 12/20/2018 1:31 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
What are your thoughts on why a network would join a non-profit IX, 
but not a neutral, for-profit IX? Let's assume that traffic levels are 
similar.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 



--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Non-profit IX vs. neutral for-profit IX

[Mike Hammett]

What are your thoughts on why a network would join a non-profit IX, but not a 
neutral, for-profit IX? Let's assume that traffic levels are similar. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP