Re: "Permanent" DST

[Mark Tinka]

On 3/15/22 21:40, Eric Kuhnke wrote:

If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real 
hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border 
between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done consistently 
throughout North America.


Rwanda and Uganda are bordering one another in East Africa - but are 1hr 
apart. It's the oddest thing, considering the sun rises and falls at the 
same time for both.


Mark.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[J. Hellenthal via NANOG]

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 12:51:56PM -0700, Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Mar 16, 2022, at 12:24 , Chris Adams  wrote:
> > 
> > Once upon a time, Owen DeLong  said:
> >> You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:
> >> 
> >> 1. Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California).
> > 
> > And now your system displays wrong info 100% of the time, since as I
> > understand it, the zones will be changed (e.g. for me, CST will change
> > from UTC-0600 to UTC-0500).  How will you distinguish between "old" MST
> > and "new" MST when you see it listed?
> 
> As I said, if necessary for your situation, rename the appropriate file and 
> then keep
> the TZ name and simply change the DST on/off flag to off.

that'll be done by most major distribution without thought.

> 
> Owen
> 

-- 
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Brett Frankenberger]

On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:29:07AM -0700, Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote:
> 
> You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:
> 
> 1.Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California).
> 2.Turn off the Daylight Stupid Time flag.
> 
> The previous change involved updating MANY zone files to change when
> DST happened.
> 
> This change eliminates that complexity altogether.
> 
> This is a MUCH simpler change than the previous one.

If the requirement is "I need to correctly convert epoch time to
localtime for all times at or after the time when the new rules go into
effect", that's a workable solution.  If the requirement includes
getting it right for historical times, then, well, not so much.

 -- Brett

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Owen DeLong via NANOG]

> On Mar 16, 2022, at 12:24 , Chris Adams  wrote:
> 
> Once upon a time, Owen DeLong  said:
>> You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:
>> 
>> 1.   Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California).
> 
> And now your system displays wrong info 100% of the time, since as I
> understand it, the zones will be changed (e.g. for me, CST will change
> from UTC-0600 to UTC-0500).  How will you distinguish between "old" MST
> and "new" MST when you see it listed?

As I said, if necessary for your situation, rename the appropriate file and 
then keep
the TZ name and simply change the DST on/off flag to off.

Owen

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Joe Loiacono]

Indeed. I was quite surprised to learn that an issue we were dealing 
with was a result of not having have the latest TZ file installed.


On 3/16/2022 4:47 PM, Ask Bjørn Hansen wrote:

This is a weirdly long thread, mostly unrelated to NANOG, it seems.

The work for how this will be implemented in most of our computers happens on 
the TZ list by thoughtful people with lots and lots of experience on the 
subject: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/

I believe the last change in the US was more than a decade ago, but time zone 
data changes somewhere in the world on a very very regular basis.


Ask

Re: "Permanent" DST

[John Levine]

It appears that Chris Adams  said:
>Once upon a time, Owen DeLong  said:
>> You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:
>> 
>> 1.   Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California).
>
>And now your system displays wrong info 100% of the time, since as I
>understand it, the zones will be changed (e.g. for me, CST will change
>from UTC-0600 to UTC-0500).  How will you distinguish between "old" MST
>and "new" MST when you see it listed?

No, the names of time zones will not change. California would
permanently be on PDT.  If you want to call it MST, that's OK, too.

Arizona is on MST which is the same as PDT. Puerto Rico is on AST
which is the same as EDT. Neither of them are going to change.

R's,
JOhn

Re: "Permanent" DST

[John Levine]

It appears that Jay Hennigan  said:
>Some systems are dumbed-down with drop-down menus listing cities like 
>"Americas-Los Angeles" and similar. These will require a bit of work on 
>the back end.

Unix and linux systems have a timezone database that has the historic time
zones for everywhere they know about.  The internal time format is always
seconds since the beginning of 1970 UTC, and the libraries use the database
to convert back and forth to display formats.

Updating the timezone database is just like updating any other files in
your computer.  If you install the usual system updates, you'll be fine.

R's,
John

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Ask Bjørn Hansen]

This is a weirdly long thread, mostly unrelated to NANOG, it seems.

The work for how this will be implemented in most of our computers happens on 
the TZ list by thoughtful people with lots and lots of experience on the 
subject: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/

I believe the last change in the US was more than a decade ago, but time zone 
data changes somewhere in the world on a very very regular basis.


Ask

Re: "Permanent" DST

[surfer]

 

On 3/16/2022 7:11 AM, John Levine wrote:


It appears that Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG  said:



All that's left to solve is in-person stuff...which already currently sucks.

"My flight leaves at 6 AM local time and lasts 90 minutes, but I'm crossing
3 timezones heading west...



It could be worse.  In non-COVID times there are flights between Honolulu (HNL) 
and
Kirimati (CXI) which take about three hours but there is a 24-hour time change.


--


Darn International Date Line.  Until a person gets used to it things are 
confusing.
Explaining it to folks is so painful I just stopped.  Me: "When dealing with 
Australia, 
it's the next day."  Other person: "What the heck do you mean???"  

scott

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Matthew Kaufman]

On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 10:31 AM Owen DeLong via NANOG 
wrote:

>
>
> You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:
>
> 1.  Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California).
> 2.  Turn off the Daylight Stupid Time flag.
>
>
This doesn't work at all if you want to properly display times in the past.

If you are in the new PST, then the setting is PST, and the timezone file
properly has the current state as ending in November 2023 and the new state
taking effect in November 2023 and you get proper display of time before
and after the change.

If you are in the new PST and set your timezone to MST then all times
before November 2023 are displayed incorrectly.

Matthew Kaufman

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay Hennigan]

On 3/16/22 10:41, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:


Have we not learned, yet, the "don't lie to the computers" rule?

How *would* the timezone libraries handle "DST always on"? They would still
have to flap, twice a year, right?


It depends. The easy ones have two settings with an optional third.

1. Offset from UTC
2. DST yes/no
3. Specify date and time to switch DST on/off.

Setting 3's default was tweaked in 2007 in the US when DST was expanded.

Easy-peasy. Set the appropriate offset in option 1 and set option 2 to 
No. Option 3 is irrelevant.


Some systems are dumbed-down with drop-down menus listing cities like 
"Americas-Los Angeles" and similar. These will require a bit of work on 
the back end.


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Owen DeLong  said:
> You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:
> 
> 1.Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California).

And now your system displays wrong info 100% of the time, since as I
understand it, the zones will be changed (e.g. for me, CST will change
from UTC-0600 to UTC-0500).  How will you distinguish between "old" MST
and "new" MST when you see it listed?

-- 
Chris Adams 

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Owen DeLong via NANOG]

> On Mar 16, 2022, at 10:41 , Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
> 
> - Original Message -
>> From: "Owen DeLong" 
> 
>> No development really necessary… Just pick the corresponding standard-time
>> timezone and turn off the DST flip flopping.
>> 
>> E.g. if you are in California and go always-on, then simply mark it as MST 
>> year
>> round.
>> (i.e. just like you’re in Arizona today, which is MST year round, no DST).
> 
> And... Owen illustrates my initial rhetoric about "moving to the east 15
> degrees".
> 
> Have we not learned, yet, the "don't lie to the computers" rule?
> 
> How *would* the timezone libraries handle "DST always on"? They would still
> have to flap, twice a year, right?

Uh, no. they wouldn’t.

MST with DST off == PDT year round.

Simple. No semi-annual change required.

If you don’t want to lie to the computer, then all one needs to do is rename 
the corresponding
timezone files…

MST becomes the new PST file, etc.

Of course at some point, the timezone files went weird and started getting 
named after cities instead of timezones, so
the renaming is a little less intuitive, but it’s still doable.

Owen

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Owen DeLong via NANOG]

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:44 , Jay Hennigan  wrote:
> 
> On 3/15/22 12:26, Ray Van Dolson via NANOG wrote:
>> I think this is essentially the bill:
>> https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text
>> Not finding anything about 15 degrees.
> 
> The 15 degrees is kind of a joke. It means that "high noon", when the sun is 
> at zenith, would occur roughly 15 degrees east of noon local clock time.

You have that backwards… With California observing MST, the sun would reach 
it’s Zenith in California at 11 AM local and Noon California would see the sun
roughly 15 degrees west of it’s Zenith.

> It's kind of like the meme showing a Native American saying, "Only a white 
> man would cut a foot off of the top of a blanket, sew it on the bottom, and 
> think he has a longer blanket."

Which is why ending the time change is a really GOOD idea.

Honestly, I have zero dog in the fight over which timezone any particular state 
ends up in. I do favor entire states being in the same timezone as much as 
possible.
So whether California ends up classed as PST, MST, PDT, or UTC permanently, I 
really couldn’t care less, so long as we don’t have to keep adjusting clocks.

Owen

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Tom Beecher]

>
> How *would* the timezone libraries handle "DST always on"? They would still
> have to flap, twice a year, right?
>

AFAIK, the way stuff works now is essentially "always get the standard
time, adjust it if DST is enabled and in effect."

On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 1:42 PM Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:

> - Original Message -
> > From: "Owen DeLong" 
>
> > No development really necessary… Just pick the corresponding
> standard-time
> > timezone and turn off the DST flip flopping.
> >
> > E.g. if you are in California and go always-on, then simply mark it as
> MST year
> > round.
> > (i.e. just like you’re in Arizona today, which is MST year round, no
> DST).
>
> And... Owen illustrates my initial rhetoric about "moving to the east 15
> degrees".
>
> Have we not learned, yet, the "don't lie to the computers" rule?
>
> How *would* the timezone libraries handle "DST always on"? They would still
> have to flap, twice a year, right?
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC
> 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land
> Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647
> 1274
>

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Owen DeLong via NANOG]

15 degrees east is Jay’s snarky way of describing permanently putting everyone 
on a timezone that was formerly applicable to a position roughly 15º east of 
their current position.

In other words, Permanent Daylight Savings time.

Owen


> On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:19 , Mel Beckman  wrote:
> 
> I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen 
> degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from 
> your language the bill will be permanent standard time. 
> 
> I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more 
> clearly. 
> 
> -mel via cell
> 
>> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
>> 
>> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>> 
>> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
>> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>> 
>> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will
>> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even
>> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>> 
>> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>> 
>> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
>> decision on this engineering construct.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> -- jra
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
>> j...@baylink.com
>> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 
>> 2100
>> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover 
>> DII
>> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 
>> 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay R. Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Owen DeLong" 

> No development really necessary… Just pick the corresponding standard-time
> timezone and turn off the DST flip flopping.
> 
> E.g. if you are in California and go always-on, then simply mark it as MST 
> year
> round.
> (i.e. just like you’re in Arizona today, which is MST year round, no DST).

And... Owen illustrates my initial rhetoric about "moving to the east 15
degrees".

Have we not learned, yet, the "don't lie to the computers" rule?

How *would* the timezone libraries handle "DST always on"? They would still
have to flap, twice a year, right?

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Owen DeLong via NANOG]

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 15:05 , Jan Schaumann via NANOG  wrote:
> 
> Dave  wrote:
>> Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard 
>> thing to accomplish
> 
> Oh, hah, good one.
> 
> I twitch with mild PTSD thinking about the last time
> there was change to DST in the US[1], and how
> everybody quickly found out that e.g., Java,
> databases, programming languages, etc. often ship
> their own (poorly kept up to date) zonefiles different
> from the OS's, and that was before un-updatedable IoT
> systems became ubiquitous.
> 
> Change to a single file my foot.

You’re right… Two changes to a single file in most cases:

1.  Set the correct new timezone (e.g. MST for California).
2.  Turn off the Daylight Stupid Time flag.

The previous change involved updating MANY zone files to change when DST 
happened.

This change eliminates that complexity altogether.

This is a MUCH simpler change than the previous one.

Owen

Re: "Permanent" DST

[John Levine]

It appears that Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG  said:
>All that's left to solve is in-person stuff...which already currently sucks.
>
>"My flight leaves at 6 AM local time and lasts 90 minutes, but I'm crossing
>3 timezones heading west...

It could be worse.  In non-COVID times there are flights between Honolulu (HNL) 
and
Kirimati (CXI) which take about three hours but there is a 24-hour time change.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Owen DeLong via NANOG]

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 17:34 , Chris Adams  wrote:
> 
> Once upon a time, Dave  said:
>> Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard 
>> thing to accomplish
> 
> For lots of up-to-date servers running a current and well-maintained
> operating system, this will be mostly easy (except that if you maintain
> hundreds of servers, it's still non-trivial, because even with
> automation, there's testing involved to make sure all services are
> properly updated).  It's definitely more than "a change to a single
> file" though.
> 
> If that's all that existed, that'd be great.  However, there are tons of
> not up-to-date servers, running unmaintained operating systems.  There
> are tons of embedded systems that never get updates.  The last time
> Congress messed with the time zones and DST, it was a huge PITA, and I'd
> wager there are way more problem systems now than there were then.

True, but…

Last time Congress messed with this, they weren’t making it better (eliminating
the unnecessary and pointless timezone changes), they were arbitrarily changing
when those changes happened for no legitimate reason other than the desire to
appear to be doing something.

I know of many systems that do not cope well with the DST/noDST changes, though
as you said, mostly not modern ones running up to date software.

I do not know of a single system ever built which keeps time at all and could 
not handle
remaining in the same timezone year round without any modifications.

The last change required updating the rules for how the change worked and when 
to
trigger it for several timezones.

The proposed change (having a single timezone per location and not changing it 
twice
per year) would be much _MUCH_ simpler than the previous one and offers 
significant
advantages, especially to those older systems that don’t handle the change well.

> This is a huge waste of time to address, all because some businesses
> think their hours are nailed for all eternity, and the world must change
> instead.

This is a trivial change to eliminate an unnecessary complexity that no longer 
offers
any benefit to society and creates significant costs.

Owen

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Owen DeLong via NANOG]

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 22:16 , Doug Barton  wrote:
> 
> All of this. The reason that the proposal is always worded "Permanent 
> Daylight Savings Time" is that there are a non-trivial number of people who 
> genuinely believe that with DST we get more sunlight. Not more sunlight 
> during the hours when most people are awake, literally more sunlight.
> 
> In a world where institutional hours don't change, (schools, workplaces, 
> etc.) DST actually makes sense because it more closely aligns the ideas of 
> "morning" and "evening" with most people's schedules. For the most part 
> people complaining about the change are actually reacting to the lengthening 
> and/or shortening daylight hours. The fixed point to change the clocks just 
> gives them something to focus on.

No… I am not complaining about the shortening or lengthening of the days. I 
well understand how the relationship between the ecliptic plane and the axis of 
earth’s rotation interact over the course of a year to cause this phenomenon 
and why it is exaggerated the further you get towards the poles.

I am perfectly fine adapting to this phenomenon without screwing with the clock 
and having 10,000 different rules for when it happens around the world.

I favor sticking with one timezone because I see no benefit to screwing with 
the clock and I’d rather just leave it alone. I really don’t care whether 
California is in PST, MST, PDT, UTC, or any other timezone, so long as we 
simply pick one and stay there year round.

> Keeping everything on standard time and adjusting schedules makes the most 
> sense for letting kids travel too and from with the most daylight possible; 
> but taking just the example of working parents, they would need all of their 
> kids' schools to agree to the same change, as well as their workplace.

Actually, if you kept everything on standard time and didn’t adjust schedules, 
you’d be faced with up to an extra hour of daylight before school beyond what 
you get now, but otherwise, there would be no additional consequence, so IMHO, 
that makes the most sense. Maximizes the daylight for kids traveling and 
doesn’t require schedule adjustment.

> Alas, the true solution is education.

It is difficult to educate those who remain willfully ignorant. This phenomenon 
is the basis for modern American politics.

Owen

> 
> 
> On 3/15/22 3:09 PM, Matthew Huff wrote:
>> They don't want their names on it when what happened in the 70s happens 
>> again. The effect of setting everything to DST and staying there is that in 
>> the winter, especially in the norther latitude it will be pitch dark during 
>> most of the morning when children get picked up at school bus stops. When 
>> the tragedy happens again, and it will, they will end up undoing this 
>> again...
>> History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce...
>> Matthew Huff | Director of Technical Operations | OTA Management LLC
>> Office: 914-460-4039
>> mh...@ox.com | www.ox.com
>> ...
>> -Original Message-
>> From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Jay R. 
>> Ashworth
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:30 PM
>> To: Tom Beecher 
>> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
>> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
>> Oh.  This was "Unanimous Consent"?  AKA "I want to vote for this, but *I do 
>> not want to be held responsible for having voted for it when it blows up*?"
>> I'd missed that; thanks.
>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Tom Beecher" 
>>> To: "Eric Kuhnke" 
>>> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:04:02 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
>>> I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our
>>> current political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) ,
>>> I kinda feel like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody
>>> figuring out how to line themselves up appropriately.
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a
>>>> clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB
>>>> matches US Mountain time.
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be
>>>>> eric> a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing
>>>>> eric> the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done
>>>>> eric> consistently throughout North America.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not
>>>>> by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
>>>>> 

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Owen DeLong via NANOG]

No development really necessary… Just pick the corresponding standard-time 
timezone and turn off the DST flip flopping.

E.g. if you are in California and go always-on, then simply mark it as MST year 
round.
(i.e. just like you’re in Arizona today, which is MST year round, no DST).

Owen


> On Mar 16, 2022, at 05:57 , Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> Always on or always off, I don't care which, just pick one and give 
> sufficient lead time for development.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>   
>  
>  
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>   
>  
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
>   
> 
> From: "Jay R. Ashworth" mailto:j...@baylink.com>>
> To: "nanog@nanog.org  list"  >
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 2:11:19 PM
> Subject: "Permanent" DST
> 
> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
> 
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
> 
> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will
> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even
> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
> 
> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
> 
> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
> decision on this engineering construct.
> 
> Cheers,
> -- jra
> 
> -- 
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
> j...@baylink.com 
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info 
>   2000 Land Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Owen DeLong via NANOG]

> "My flight leaves at 6 AM local time and lasts 90 minutes, but I'm crossing 3 
> timezones heading west...so you need to pick me up at...uh4:30 AM your 
> time?  Oh waitare you currently in DST or not because we don't do DST 
> here, but I think you doso you either need to pick me up at 4:30 AM or 
> 3:30 AM...I'm not surewhat's your time is it now?  Ok, it's 5 AM my time 
> and 7 AM your time, so no DST, so...uh...but next week your zone is switching 
> to DST but we're already on it..."

Um, if you manage to cross 3 timezones in 90 minutes, you have a VERY fast 
aircraft or you are really far north.

Most jet airliners max out somewhere approximating 500 statute MPH (actually a 
little less) not accounting for wind.

Going west, you’re usually against the wind (northern hemisphere, you’re with 
the wind in the southern hemisphere).

At the equator, timezones are roughly 1,000 miles (technically 1037.56) wide 
(earth has a roughly 8,000 mile diameter for an approximately 24,000 mile 
circumference).
Obviously, they get narrower as you get farther from the equator, but not 
linearly so. At 45º Latitude, this becomes 733.84 SM. 
The half-width point is approximately 60º latitude (518.97 SM).

To put some perspective on this, Portland, OR is roughly 45º North. Seattle, WA 
is roughly 47º North. To get to 60º N, you’re looking at such densely populated 
locales as Whitehorse, Yukon Territory (60.72º North). Whitehorse is (by far) 
the largest city in the entire Yukon Territory. Admittedly, St. Petersburg, RU 
is also very close to 60º North and a bit more populous. Coincidentally, 60º 
latitude. To put this in some additional perspective, the arctic and antarctic 
circles are at approximately 66.5º latitude. Those circles approximately 
enclose the areas where the sun does not set within 24 hours of the summer 
solstice. (The actual phenomenon is a little larger due to refraction).

I’m not sure if there are direct flights between (e.g. Winnipeg and 
Whitehorse), but that’s an example of a city pair that would be necessary to do 
a 90 minute flight crossing 3 timezones going west, assuming no wind at 
altitude, though Winnipeg is a bit of a fudge since it’s only 49.9º latitude).

I couldn’t find a place outside of Antarctica that was wide enough to have 3 
timezones at 60º Latitude. Australia came closest, but Adelaide is only 34.93º 
South.

I don’t think there are two airports at that spacing on Antarctica, either.

There might be feasible options in Europe. Perhaps Reykjavik to Oslo  or 
Stockholm might do the trick.

Nonetheless, your point about timezone absurdity and flight calculations is 
well taken. Daylight Stupid Time (and the some do/some don’t and on a variety 
of schedules) doesn’t make it any easier, either.

> 
> vs
> 
> "My flight leaves at 06:00 zulu, lasts 90 minutes, so I'm landing at 7:30 
> zulu.  See you then."
> 
> For the record, I was always told DST was implemented because of farmers.
> I'm a farmer and I hate timezones.  I just wake up when the rooster starts 
> crowing, and no one goes out to adjust him twice a year for DST.

I would definitely favor flights operating and/or publishing their schedules in 
UTC rather than local times. (or at least having the UTC times available 
adjacent to the local times).

I’m not opposed to the idea of switching everyone to UTC and letting “9 to 5” 
become “X to Y” depending on location, but I suspect that would break too many 
people’s brains to ever gain wide acceptance from the majority of voters that 
would have to approve such a thing.

Heck, California couldn’t even figure out that it was a good idea to vote to 
get rid of Daylight Stupid Time. (Note, by get rid, I am not advocating for 
being PST all year. I don’t care whether we go PST or MST all year, I just want 
to pick one time zone for the entire year and stop jumping back and forth for 
reasons utterly passing understanding).

Owen

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG]

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:09 PM Joe Greco  wrote:

> We COULD all work in UTC and un-learn the weird system of hour offsets
> and timezones.  This would be convenient for people at a distance, since
> it would be simply a matter of stating availability hours, rather than
> giving someone hours AND a timezone and making them do the math.  If I
> say that I'm available for an hour at 22:00 UTC, that works out anywhere
> on the globe.  But do you know what timezone "CDT" is?  When's "17:00 CDT"?


Seems like an issue that could be solved by some simple tech that I'm
surprised Apple and Google haven't really implemented.

My sister is a "world traveler".  I have no idea what country she'll be in
next week.  If I decide to call her, I have no idea what timezone she'll be
in...let alone what "normal sleeping hours" are for her when she's
jet-lagged after a 14 hour flight.

I just call her phone and see if she answers.

I think just about every smartphone has a rudimentary "do not disturb"
feature built in.  My Google phone automatically switches to DND when it's
on the charging stand after 10 PM and turns off when I pick it up in the
morning.

The multitude of chat apps have presence.  Online, available, free to chat,
busy, unavailable, offline, do-not-disturb.

Why doesn't that exist for phone numbers? Create a public queryable server
that shows a status for a phone number.  Set your status to some
pre-defined value or make a custom status:
{
  status: "doing my taxes",
  do-not-disturb: true,
  emergencies: true,
  typical_availability: {
start: "14:00:00 GMT",
end: "04:00:00 GMT",
  }
}

I know FreePBX has presence support internally for extensions.  Come up
with a standard, integrate it with cell phones and you've solved
interrupting people because you don't know what arbitrary time numbers and
offsets they are using.

Android and iOS could have a 'master switch' on every phone.  Set your
status and all your various apps can pick up that status including voice
calls.
Android (and I'm sure iOS has it too) provides a way to say "these contacts
can override DND".

All that's left to solve is in-person stuff...which already currently sucks.

"My flight leaves at 6 AM local time and lasts 90 minutes, but I'm crossing
3 timezones heading west...so you need to pick me up at...uh4:30 AM
your time?  Oh waitare you currently in DST or not because we don't do
DST here, but I think you doso you either need to pick me up at 4:30 AM
or 3:30 AM...I'm not surewhat's your time is it now?  Ok, it's 5 AM my
time and 7 AM your time, so no DST, so...uh...but next week your zone is
switching to DST but we're already on it..."

vs

"My flight leaves at 06:00 zulu, lasts 90 minutes, so I'm landing at 7:30
zulu.  See you then."

For the record, I was always told DST was implemented because of farmers.
I'm a farmer and I hate timezones.  I just wake up when the rooster starts
crowing, and no one goes out to adjust him twice a year for DST.

-A

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Fred Baker]

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 1:24 PM, Elmar K. Bins  wrote:
> 
> 2 - I like how american politics is capable of creating new problems; where
> did this bill come from in the first place? And who's lobbying?

According to the universal time law, the US is on Standard Time unless a state 
chooses Daylight Savings, but most states have chosen the latter. Florida and 
California, and perhaps other states, have passed laws saying that if Congress 
passes a law allowing universal Daylight savings, we'd prefer that. Personally, 
I don' care. 

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Mike Hammett]

"Farmers work on that kind of schedule" 


With GPS and now even RTK-assisted GPS, farmers don't care if it's noon or 
midnight, though obviously working near normal human awake times makes the 
search for labor easier. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Jason Baugher"  
To: "Eric Tykwinski" , "nanog@nanog.org list" 
 
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 4:18:46 PM 
Subject: RE: "Permanent" DST 



In the 70’s, you couldn’t check your smartphone to find out when a business was 
open, so there was a certain assumption that it would be open not only during 
“normal business hours”, but that it would be consistent throughout the year. 
We live in a completely different world today, where I’d venture to say that 
the majority of the population isn’t starting their day at dawn and ending it 
at dusk. Farmers work on that kind of schedule, but they don’t care what the 
clock says anyway. In today’s world, it’s pretty trivial for businesses to 
notify customers of schedule changes. 

So I agree, we should stick with UTC offset, or standard time, and let 
businesses handle changing their hours during the summer to earlier if they 
want to give their employees more “daytime”. 

Jason 





From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
Eric Tykwinski 
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:37 PM 
To: nanog@nanog.org list  
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST 


What I don’t understand, is why change time, just change working hours. 

I’m all for giving up the time change, but the standard should probably still 
be UTC offset. 

If you work 9-5, change it to 10-6. Every company can post working hours on 
their website. 

Obviously for most of us, it’s a moot point. 



P.S. Anyone working at NIST or a similar org probably needs a raise for dealing 
with all the exceptions. 






On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:16 PM, Joly MacFie < j...@punkcast.com > wrote: 




WaPo has a been there done that item today. 



https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-saving-time-in-the-70s-people-hated-it/
 



On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:11 PM Jay R. Ashworth < j...@baylink.com > wrote: 


In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would 

1) Cancel DST permanently, and 
2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east. 

My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will 
fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even 
if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult. 

I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on... 

Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their 
decision on this engineering construct. 

Cheers, 
-- jra 

-- 
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com 
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 
Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII 
St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274 






-- 






-- 
Joly MacFie +12185659365 

-- 
- 



Jason Baugher, Network Operations Manager 
405 Emminga Road | PO Box 217 | Golden, IL 62339-0217 
P (217) 696-4411 | F (217) 696-4811 | www.adams.net 
Adams-Logo
The information contained in this email message is PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL, 
and is intended for the use of the addressee and no one else. If you are not 
the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute, reproduce or use this 
email message (or the attachments) and notify the sender of the mistaken 
transmission. Thank you. 

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Mike Hammett]

Always on or always off, I don't care which, just pick one and give sufficient 
lead time for development. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Jay R. Ashworth"  
To: "nanog@nanog.org list"  
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 2:11:19 PM 
Subject: "Permanent" DST 

In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would 

1) Cancel DST permanently, and 
2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east. 

My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will 
fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even 
if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult. 

I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on... 

Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their 
decision on this engineering construct. 

Cheers, 
-- jra 

-- 
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com 
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 
Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII 
St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274 

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Carsten Bormann]

On 2022-03-16, at 13:26, Tom Beecher  wrote:
> 
>  I certainly can't find any references to a massive uptake in kids getting 
> doinked by cars at dark bus stops in that 70s experiment. 

Of course not.

The game is that at least one kid will die in the time an experiment runs, and 
the press will latch to that event and make a big stink that winter DST is 
unsafe.
The fact that as many kids would have died without winter DST is not relevant 
because of availability bias.

That’s why it can’t be an experiment.

Grüße, Carsten

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Tom Beecher]

>
> They don't want their names on it when what happened in the 70s happens
> again. The effect of setting everything to DST and staying there is that in
> the winter, especially in the norther latitude it will be pitch dark during
> most of the morning when children get picked up at school bus stops. When
> the tragedy happens again, and it will, they will end up undoing this
> again...
>

Or, perhaps, schools just adjust times a little bit to accommodate.

Also, I live in upstate NY, and even with the current time implementation,
there was plenty of times that I was out for the bus when it was dark
already. I don't mean to sound like 'when I was a kid, uphill, both ways'
here, but I certainly can't find any references to a massive uptake in kids
getting doinked by cars at dark bus stops in that 70s experiment.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 6:09 PM Matthew Huff  wrote:

> They don't want their names on it when what happened in the 70s happens
> again. The effect of setting everything to DST and staying there is that in
> the winter, especially in the norther latitude it will be pitch dark during
> most of the morning when children get picked up at school bus stops. When
> the tragedy happens again, and it will, they will end up undoing this
> again...
>
> History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce...
>
> Matthew Huff | Director of Technical Operations | OTA Management LLC
>
> Office: 914-460-4039
> mh...@ox.com | www.ox.com
>
> ...
>
> -Original Message-
> From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Jay R.
> Ashworth
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:30 PM
> To: Tom Beecher 
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
>
> Oh.  This was "Unanimous Consent"?  AKA "I want to vote for this, but *I
> do not want to be held responsible for having voted for it when it blows
> up*?"
>
> I'd missed that; thanks.
>
> - Original Message -----
> > From: "Tom Beecher" 
> > To: "Eric Kuhnke" 
> > Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" 
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:04:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
>
> > I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our
> > current political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) ,
> > I kinda feel like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody
> > figuring out how to line themselves up appropriately.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
> >
> >> That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a
> >> clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB
> >> matches US Mountain time.
> >>
> >> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be
> >>> eric> a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing
> >>> eric> the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done
> >>> eric> consistently throughout North America.
> >>>
> >>> You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not
> >>> by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
> >>>
>
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC
> 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land
> Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647
> 1274
>

Re: "Permanent" DST

[hak]

Changing the relationship between local time and true solar noon to provide
more or less sunlight during certain times of the day and certain times of the
year is a totally suboptimal solution.  Its like changing your oil by rotating
your entire car while holding the oil filter stationary.  But gov't shouldn't
tell us when we have to get up, or go to work, so if they just change what
time it is, we're all fooled, right?

This is the North American Network Operators Group mailing list, so I am
curious, do any network operators see actual impact, to network operations,
if this does go into effect?  Where time of day is present in protocols,
it is almost always based on UTC.  There are already many different and
inconsistently applied local timezone rules in the world, and it does not
seem to impact network operations.  I see this as more of an applications
and UI/UX type of impact.  I guess what I am asking, do IP packets check
and adjust their wristwatches when they transit different timezones?

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Doug Barton]

All of this. The reason that the proposal is always worded "Permanent 
Daylight Savings Time" is that there are a non-trivial number of people 
who genuinely believe that with DST we get more sunlight. Not more 
sunlight during the hours when most people are awake, literally more 
sunlight.


In a world where institutional hours don't change, (schools, workplaces, 
etc.) DST actually makes sense because it more closely aligns the ideas 
of "morning" and "evening" with most people's schedules. For the most 
part people complaining about the change are actually reacting to the 
lengthening and/or shortening daylight hours. The fixed point to change 
the clocks just gives them something to focus on.


Keeping everything on standard time and adjusting schedules makes the 
most sense for letting kids travel too and from with the most daylight 
possible; but taking just the example of working parents, they would 
need all of their kids' schools to agree to the same change, as well as 
their workplace.


Alas, the true solution is education.


On 3/15/22 3:09 PM, Matthew Huff wrote:

They don't want their names on it when what happened in the 70s happens again. 
The effect of setting everything to DST and staying there is that in the 
winter, especially in the norther latitude it will be pitch dark during most of 
the morning when children get picked up at school bus stops. When the tragedy 
happens again, and it will, they will end up undoing this again...

History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce...

Matthew Huff | Director of Technical Operations | OTA Management LLC

Office: 914-460-4039
mh...@ox.com | www.ox.com
...

-Original Message-
From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Jay R. Ashworth
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:30 PM
To: Tom Beecher 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

Oh.  This was "Unanimous Consent"?  AKA "I want to vote for this, but *I do not want 
to be held responsible for having voted for it when it blows up*?"

I'd missed that; thanks.

- Original Message -

From: "Tom Beecher" 
To: "Eric Kuhnke" 
Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" 
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:04:02 PM
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST



I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our
current political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) ,
I kinda feel like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody
figuring out how to line themselves up appropriately.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:


That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a
clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB
matches US Mountain time.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman 
wrote:


eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be
eric> a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing
eric> the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done
eric> consistently throughout North America.

You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not
by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay Hennigan]

On 3/15/22 19:28, Sabri Berisha wrote:

- On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:35 PM, nanog nanog@nanog.org wrote:



But how will we remember to change the batteries in our smoke and CO2 detectors
then?


Don't worry, they'll remind you.

At 3am.

With an annoying beep.


If only it were that easy. The annoying beep only happens after at least 
a week of annoying chirps that are far too short to localize and spaced 
just far enough apart that you can't really anticipate when the next one 
will come.


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Sabri Berisha]

- On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:35 PM, nanog nanog@nanog.org wrote:

Hi,

> But how will we remember to change the batteries in our smoke and CO2 
> detectors
> then?

Don't worry, they'll remind you.

At 3am.

With an annoying beep.

Thanks,

Sabri

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Jay R. Ashworth  said:
> This also, as I understood it, why high-school is always the first grade
> level which starts, and ends, the school day (often 7a-2p or so).

Not "always"... high school starts 30-40 minutes later than the younger
kids here.
-- 
Chris Adams 

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay R. Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Keith Stokes" 

> There are plenty of arguments that the existing school hours aren’t best for
> educating children so the better answer might be to make school hours match
> later daylight hours.

As it turns out, there's a deeper answer here:

There are still a statistically significant number of families, even in 2022, 
where the financial contribution of a high-school senior to the budget is 
important, and that necessity is perceived to be both safer, and more likely
to be worth the investment for employers, if they can work later.

This also, as I understood it, why high-school is always the first grade
level which starts, and ends, the school day (often 7a-2p or so).

No, I don't have a citation handy; news pieces I read on it some years ago.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Dave  said:
> Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard 
> thing to accomplish

For lots of up-to-date servers running a current and well-maintained
operating system, this will be mostly easy (except that if you maintain
hundreds of servers, it's still non-trivial, because even with
automation, there's testing involved to make sure all services are
properly updated).  It's definitely more than "a change to a single
file" though.

If that's all that existed, that'd be great.  However, there are tons of
not up-to-date servers, running unmaintained operating systems.  There
are tons of embedded systems that never get updates.  The last time
Congress messed with the time zones and DST, it was a huge PITA, and I'd
wager there are way more problem systems now than there were then.

This is a huge waste of time to address, all because some businesses
think their hours are nailed for all eternity, and the world must change
instead.

-- 
Chris Adams 

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Roy]

On 3/15/2022 1:19 PM, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:

On Mar 15, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real hassle, 
dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, for 
instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North America.

Nah, not really a big deal. The transportation world has handled it just fine 
for Arizona, and previously, Indiana.

Heck, here’s where it gets real confusing.

Arizona does not observe DST as a state. However, freight railroads in Arizona 
DO. At least BNSF Railway does. So for a good chunk of the year, if you are 
involved with the railroad, you have to clarify if events are happening at 8 
a.m. city time or 8 a.m. railroad time.

At least that’s how it was last time I was down there as a railroad contractor.

-Andy.




Arizona time is supposedly MST all year but it is not consistent. The 
Indian nations adopt their own rules whether to use DST or not. Example:
the Navajo nations uses DST but Hopi nation doesn't.  You can plot a 
trip from east to west across AZ and have to change your clock seven times!

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Keith Stokes]

There are plenty of arguments that the existing school hours aren’t best for 
educating children so the better answer might be to make school hours match 
later daylight hours.



> On Mar 15, 2022, at 5:23 PM, Matthew Huff  wrote:
> 
> They don't want their names on it when what happened in the 70s happens 
> again. The effect of setting everything to DST and staying there is that in 
> the winter, especially in the norther latitude it will be pitch dark during 
> most of the morning when children get picked up at school bus stops. When the 
> tragedy happens again, and it will, they will end up undoing this again...
> 
> History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce...
> 
> Matthew Huff | Director of Technical Operations | OTA Management LLC
> 
> Office: 914-460-4039
> mh...@ox.com | www.ox.com
> ...
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Jay R. 
> Ashworth
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:30 PM
> To: Tom Beecher 
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
> 
> Oh.  This was "Unanimous Consent"?  AKA "I want to vote for this, but *I do 
> not want to be held responsible for having voted for it when it blows up*?"
> 
> I'd missed that; thanks.
> 
> - Original Message -
>> From: "Tom Beecher" 
>> To: "Eric Kuhnke" 
>> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:04:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
> 
>> I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our 
>> current political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) , 
>> I kinda feel like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody 
>> figuring out how to line themselves up appropriately.
>> 
>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>>> 
>>> That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a 
>>> clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB 
>>> matches US Mountain time.
>>> 
>>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be 
>>>> eric> a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing 
>>>> eric> the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done 
>>>> eric> consistently throughout North America.
>>>> 
>>>> You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not 
>>>> by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
>>>> 
> 
> -- 
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay Ashworth]

And here's the NPR story which leads with "the Senate passed a bill":

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/15/1086773840/daylight-saving-time-permanent-senate

I really don't know why that site does not list it, because it certainly 
should. But here you are.

On March 15, 2022 6:07:36 PM EDT, Matthew Petach  wrote:
>Please provide a link documenting this claim.
>
>I have been reviewing the actions listed on congress.gov, and this is not
>an action listed as having taken place.
>
>https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623/all-actions?overview=closed#tabs
>
>The last action shown for this bill was taken on March 9th, 2021, more than
>a year ago.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Matt
>
>On Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 12:14 Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
>
>> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>>
>> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
>> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>>
>> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it
>> will
>> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and
>> even
>> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>>
>> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>>
>> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
>> decision on this engineering construct.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -- jra
>>
>> --
>> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink
>> j...@baylink.com
>> Designer The Things I Think   RFC
>> 2100
>> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land
>> Rover DII
>> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647
>> 1274
>>
>>

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Ishmael Rufus]

"where did this bill come from in the first place?"

The whitehouse, Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (Sponsor), Sen. Marco Rubio
(Co-sponsor)

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:47 PM Elmar K. Bins  wrote:

> dedel...@iname.com (Dave) wrote:
>
> > Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really
> hard thing to accomplish
>
> Well...
>
> 1 - I'm surprised anybody is running local timezones on their systems at
> all
>
> 2 - I like how american politics is capable of creating new problems; where
> did this bill come from in the first place? And who's lobbying?
>
> Elmar.
>
>

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay Ashworth]

S.623 as amended, literally hundreds of Tweets in the last 2 hours tell me. 
Yeah, this just happened today. That would be why NPR lead with it on the 4 
p.m. newscast.

On March 15, 2022 6:07:36 PM EDT, Matthew Petach  wrote:
>Please provide a link documenting this claim.
>
>I have been reviewing the actions listed on congress.gov, and this is not
>an action listed as having taken place.
>
>https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623/all-actions?overview=closed#tabs
>
>The last action shown for this bill was taken on March 9th, 2021, more than
>a year ago.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Matt
>
>On Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 12:14 Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
>
>> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>>
>> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
>> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>>
>> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it
>> will
>> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and
>> even
>> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>>
>> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>>
>> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
>> decision on this engineering construct.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -- jra
>>
>> --
>> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink
>> j...@baylink.com
>> Designer The Things I Think   RFC
>> 2100
>> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land
>> Rover DII
>> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647
>> 1274
>>
>>

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[John Levine]

It appears that Mel Beckman  said:
>-=-=-=-=-=-
>We already have this problem with Arizona, which never changes time for the 
>summer.

Sure it does.  It switches from MST to PDT.

Helpfully,
John

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Randy Bush]

with all this discussion, i have not seen any post of this classic and
most critical explainer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EUTMPuvHo

RE: "Permanent" DST

[Matthew Huff]

They don't want their names on it when what happened in the 70s happens again. 
The effect of setting everything to DST and staying there is that in the 
winter, especially in the norther latitude it will be pitch dark during most of 
the morning when children get picked up at school bus stops. When the tragedy 
happens again, and it will, they will end up undoing this again...

History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce...

Matthew Huff | Director of Technical Operations | OTA Management LLC

Office: 914-460-4039
mh...@ox.com | www.ox.com
...

-Original Message-
From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Jay R. Ashworth
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:30 PM
To: Tom Beecher 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

Oh.  This was "Unanimous Consent"?  AKA "I want to vote for this, but *I do not 
want to be held responsible for having voted for it when it blows up*?"

I'd missed that; thanks.

- Original Message -
> From: "Tom Beecher" 
> To: "Eric Kuhnke" 
> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:04:02 PM
> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

> I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our 
> current political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) , 
> I kinda feel like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody 
> figuring out how to line themselves up appropriately.
> 
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
> 
>> That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a 
>> clear expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB 
>> matches US Mountain time.
>>
>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be 
>>> eric> a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing 
>>> eric> the border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done 
>>> eric> consistently throughout North America.
>>>
>>> You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not 
>>> by choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
>>>

-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Matthew Petach]

Please provide a link documenting this claim.

I have been reviewing the actions listed on congress.gov, and this is not
an action listed as having taken place.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623/all-actions?overview=closed#tabs

The last action shown for this bill was taken on March 9th, 2021, more than
a year ago.

Thanks!

Matt

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 12:14 Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:

> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>
> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it
> will
> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and
> even
> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>
> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>
> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
> decision on this engineering construct.
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
>
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC
> 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land
> Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647
> 1274
>
>

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jan Schaumann via NANOG]

Dave  wrote:
> Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard 
> thing to accomplish

Oh, hah, good one.

I twitch with mild PTSD thinking about the last time
there was change to DST in the US[1], and how
everybody quickly found out that e.g., Java,
databases, programming languages, etc. often ship
their own (poorly kept up to date) zonefiles different
from the OS's, and that was before un-updatedable IoT
systems became ubiquitous.

Change to a single file my foot.

-Jan

[1] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_in_the_United_States#2005%E2%80%932009:_Second_extension

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Joe Greco]

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 02:06:50PM -0700, Brandon Svec via NANOG wrote:
> "..rational time worldwide"?  Like all of China in one timezone and Mumbai
> :30 off center? and Arizona?  and that one county in Idaho?


The word "rational" does not belong in a sentence discussing timezones or
even general time issues.

We're taught from a young age that you wake up at, well for the sake of
argument, let's agree on 7AM.  You learn that businesses are "9AM to 5PM",
etc.  These are basically all arbitrary choices, based off hysterical
raisins that have to do with the position of the sun at noon, in an era
where there weren't better ways to synchronize clocks.

We COULD all work in UTC and un-learn the weird system of hour offsets
and timezones.  This would be convenient for people at a distance, since
it would be simply a matter of stating availability hours, rather than
giving someone hours AND a timezone and making them do the math.  If I
say that I'm available for an hour at 22:00 UTC, that works out anywhere
on the globe.  But do you know what timezone "CDT" is?  When's "17:00 CDT"?

... JG
-- 
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way
through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that
democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"-Asimov

Re: "Permanent" DST

[George Herbert]

> 
> On Mar 15, 2022, at 2:06 PM, Jay Ashworth  wrote:
> 
> It violates the international rule determining what your time zone should be 
> based on what your longitude is. 
> 
> That is not trivial.

It’s an informal convention, not “rule”, and it  not vaguely consistent in 
practice now.  You’re attributing a consensus to what’s practically chaos.  
Look at all the headaches the TZ people are dealing with now.  This simplifies 
things considerably.

-george 

Sent from my iPhone

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Fred Baker]

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 1:01 PM, Mel Beckman  wrote:
> 
> We already have this problem with Arizona, which never changes time for the 
> summer. 

Except for the Navajo Nation…

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Tom Beecher]

>
> I’m all for giving up the time change, but the standard should probably
> still be UTC offset.
>

That's literally what the text of the bill does.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:08 PM Eric Tykwinski 
wrote:

> What I don’t understand, is why change time, just change working hours.
> I’m all for giving up the time change, but the standard should probably
> still be UTC offset.
> If you work 9-5, change it to 10-6.  Every company can post working hours
> on their website.
> Obviously for most of us, it’s a moot point.
>
> P.S.  Anyone working at NIST or a similar org probably needs a raise for
> dealing with all the exceptions.
>
> On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:16 PM, Joly MacFie  wrote:
>
> WaPo has a been there done that item today.
>
>
> https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-saving-time-in-the-70s-people-hated-it/
>
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:11 PM Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
>
>> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>>
>> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
>> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>>
>> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it
>> will
>> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and
>> even
>> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>>
>> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>>
>> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
>> decision on this engineering construct.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -- jra
>>
>> --
>> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink
>> j...@baylink.com
>> Designer The Things I Think   RFC
>> 2100
>> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land
>> Rover DII
>> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647
>> 1274
>>
>
>
> --
> --
> Joly MacFie  +12185659365
> --
> -
>
>
>

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay R. Ashworth]

Oh.  This was "Unanimous Consent"?  AKA "I want to vote for this, but *I do
not want to be held responsible for having voted for it when it blows up*?"

I'd missed that; thanks.

- Original Message -
> From: "Tom Beecher" 
> To: "Eric Kuhnke" 
> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 5:04:02 PM
> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

> I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our current
> political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) , I kinda feel
> like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody figuring out how to line
> themselves up appropriately.
> 
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
> 
>> That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a clear
>> expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB matches US
>> Mountain time.
>>
>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a
>>> eric> real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the
>>> eric> border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done
>>> eric> consistently throughout North America.
>>>
>>> You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by
>>> choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
>>>

-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[John Osmon]

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 12:22:14PM -0700, Jay Hennigan wrote:
> On 3/15/22 12:19, Dave wrote:
> >Ending DST is a really good idea.
> >
> >Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental 
> >impact statement will take forever to write
> 
> Moving 15 degrees east would put Washington DC in the middle of the
> Atlantic Ocean. This might not be a bad thing.

Sounds like the idea reason FONSIs exist.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[surfer]

 

 

On 3/15/2022 9:22 AM, Jay Hennigan wrote:

On 3/15/22 12:19, Dave wrote:
Ending DST is a really good idea.

Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental impact 
statement will take forever to write

Moving 15 degrees east would put Washington DC in the middle of the Atlantic 
Ocean. This might not be a bad thing.
--

 

We here in Hawaii would also have a hard time accomplishing that unless we're 
going to anchor sailboats in 10,000+ feet of water. ;)

We have never done DST.  Always -10GMT.
scott

Re: "Permanent" DST

[William Astle]

On 2022-03-15 14:37, Eric Tykwinski wrote:

What I don’t understand, is why change time, just change working hours.
I’m all for giving up the time change, but the standard should probably 
still be UTC offset.
If you work 9-5, change it to 10-6.  Every company can post working 
hours on their website.

Obviously for most of us, it’s a moot point.


That requires a behaviour change from "the people" who are not known for 
changing behaviour in any sort of useful manner. The time change yields 
the behaviour change without "the people" realizing that's what 
happened, so they go on about their day blithely complaining about the 
time change but none the wiser about what really happened.


P.S.  Anyone working at NIST or a similar org probably needs a raise for 
dealing with all the exceptions.


Insert the Tom Scott rant about time zones from Computerphile.

RE: "Permanent" DST

[Jason Baugher]

In the 70's, you couldn't check your smartphone to find out when a business was 
open, so there was a certain assumption that it would be open not only during 
"normal business hours", but that it would be consistent throughout the year. 
We live in a completely different world today, where I'd venture to say that 
the majority of the population isn't starting their day at dawn and ending it 
at dusk. Farmers work on that kind of schedule, but they don't care what the 
clock says anyway. In today's world, it's pretty trivial for businesses to 
notify customers of schedule changes.

So I agree, we should stick with UTC offset, or standard time, and let 
businesses handle changing their hours during the summer to earlier if they 
want to give their employees more "daytime".

Jason



From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
Eric Tykwinski
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:37 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org list 
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

What I don't understand, is why change time, just change working hours.
I'm all for giving up the time change, but the standard should probably still 
be UTC offset.
If you work 9-5, change it to 10-6.  Every company can post working hours on 
their website.
Obviously for most of us, it's a moot point.

P.S.  Anyone working at NIST or a similar org probably needs a raise for 
dealing with all the exceptions.

On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:16 PM, Joly MacFie 
mailto:j...@punkcast.com>> wrote:

WaPo has a been there done that item today.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-saving-time-in-the-70s-people-hated-it/

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:11 PM Jay R. Ashworth 
mailto:j...@baylink.com>> wrote:
In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would

1) Cancel DST permanently, and
2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.

My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will
fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even
if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.

I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...

Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
decision on this engineering construct.

Cheers,
-- jra

--
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
j...@baylink.com<mailto:j...@baylink.com>
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info<http://www.bcp38.info/>   
   2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274


--
--
Joly MacFie  +12185659365
--
-


Jason Baugher, Network Operations Manager
405 Emminga Road | PO Box 217 | Golden, IL 62339-0217
P (217) 696-4411 | F (217) 696-4811 | www.adams.net<http://www.adams.net/>
[Adams-Logo]<http://adams.net/>

The information contained in this email message is PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL, 
and is intended for the use of the addressee and no one else. If you are not 
the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute, reproduce or use this 
email message (or the attachments) and notify the sender of the mistaken 
transmission. Thank you.

RE: "Permanent" DST

[Jason Baugher]

Agreed, it seems pretty foolish to move us to “permanent” DST instead of just 
going with standard time, as far as offset from UTC goes.

If I had my way, the world would just use UTC and drop all the timezone stuff. 
But small steps, getting rid of the DST change is a good start.

Jason

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
Brian R
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 2:45 PM
Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

Thanks for finding the clarification on this Ray.

I'm with the OP Jay that this will cause long term problems.  The 15 degrees is 
not mentioned in the document just the change from "Standard Time" to "Daylight 
Time" permanently (they probably don't even understand it is in 15 degree 
increments).  This will cause problems in systems across many sectors.  The 
entire world works on UTC + or - on a 15 degree scale.  Except now the US which 
will be 15 degree scale -15 degrees.  I doubt Canada, Central, or South 
Americas are going to follow this so the United States will always be 15 
degrees off of what is considered "Standard Time" by the world.
The better solution would be to remove DST all together and tell everyone in 
the US to start work at 07:00 and get off work at 16:00 every day.

Brian

From: NANOG 
mailto:nanog-bounces+briansupport=hotmail@nanog.org>>
 on behalf of Ray Van Dolson via NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:26 PM
To: Mel Beckman mailto:m...@beckman.org>>; Jay R. Ashworth 
mailto:j...@baylink.com>>
Cc: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list 
mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: RE: "Permanent" DST

I think this is essentially the bill:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text

Not finding anything about 15 degrees.

Ray

-Original Message-
From: NANOG 
mailto:nanog-bounces+rvandolson=esri@nanog.org>>
 On Behalf Of Mel Beckman
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:19 PM
To: Jay R. Ashworth mailto:j...@baylink.com>>
Cc: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list 
mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen 
degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from 
your language the bill will be permanent standard time.

I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more 
clearly.

-mel via cell

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth 
> mailto:j...@baylink.com>> wrote:
>
> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>
> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully,
> it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time
> worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life 
> difficult.
>
> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>
> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
> decision on this engineering construct.
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
>
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
> j...@baylink.com<mailto:j...@baylink.com>
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH-Gk4LCElbaWSsLXzHYDHHpxEqU0OZW56655xb8Df0mA4p1wvA$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH-Gk4LCElbaWSsLXzHYDHHpxEqU0OZW56655xb8Df0mA4p1wvA$>
>  [bcp38[.]info]  2000 Land Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Jason Baugher, Network Operations Manager
405 Emminga Road | PO Box 217 | Golden, IL 62339-0217
P (217) 696-4411 | F (217) 696-4811 | www.adams.net<http://www.adams.net/>
[Adams-Logo]<http://adams.net/>

The information contained in this email message is PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL, 
and is intended for the use of the addressee and no one else. If you are not 
the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute, reproduce or use this 
email message (or the attachments) and notify the sender of the mistaken 
transmission. Thank you.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Brandon Svec via NANOG]

"..rational time worldwide"?  Like all of China in one timezone and Mumbai
:30 off center? and Arizona?  and that one county in Idaho?

I can't agree with any technical objections because there is already the
need to account for all these bizarre details worldwide and even DST in the
US changed in 2007.

There is however strong data and evidence that every year in November when
we set clocks back and hour traffic fatalities increase, crime increases,
retail sales drop and depression increases. Avoiding that is good enough
reason for me to support this.
*Brandon Svec*



On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 12:13 PM Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:

> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>
> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it
> will
> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and
> even
> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>
> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>
> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
> decision on this engineering construct.
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
>
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC
> 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land
> Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647
> 1274
>

RE: "Permanent" DST

[Jason Baugher]

Probably worse for the people who border Indiana; we always wonder if we're on 
the same time as who we're dealing with, depending on where in Indiana the 
other person is.

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
Paul Ebersman
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:35 PM
To: Eric Kuhnke 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a
eric> real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the
eric> border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done
eric> consistently throughout North America.

You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by
choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.

Jason Baugher, Network Operations Manager
405 Emminga Road | PO Box 217 | Golden, IL 62339-0217
P (217) 696-4411 | F (217) 696-4811 | www.adams.net<http://www.adams.net/>
[Adams-Logo]<http://adams.net/>

The information contained in this email message is PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL, 
and is intended for the use of the addressee and no one else. If you are not 
the intended recipient, please do not read, distribute, reproduce or use this 
email message (or the attachments) and notify the sender of the mistaken 
transmission. Thank you.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Tom Beecher]

I would say if something passes the United States Senate in our current
political environment by unanimous consent (which this did) , I kinda feel
like there won't be a ton of issues with everybody figuring out how to line
themselves up appropriately.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:01 PM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a clear
> expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB matches US
> Mountain time.
>
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman 
> wrote:
>
>> eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a
>> eric> real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the
>> eric> border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done
>> eric> consistently throughout North America.
>>
>> You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by
>> choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
>>
>>

RE: "Permanent" DST

[Jason Baugher]

Not sure about your state, but in mine we’re mandated by law to have the new 
smoke/co2 detectors with 10-year sealed batteries in place by Jan 2023. I’m not 
sure I can even buy one locally that isn’t a 10-year.

Jason

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of PJ 
Capelli via NANOG
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 2:35 PM
To: Dave ; Jay R. Ashworth 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

But how will we remember to change the batteries in our smoke and CO2 detectors 
then?

Sent from ProtonMail for iOS


On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:19 PM, Dave 
mailto:dedel...@iname.com>> wrote:
Ending DST is a really good idea.

Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental impact 
statement will take forever to write

Dave

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth 
> mailto:j...@baylink.com>> wrote:
>
> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>
> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric. Hopefully, it will
> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even
> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>
> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>
> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
> decision on this engineering construct.
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
>
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com<mailto:j...@baylink.com>
> Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
> Ashworth & Associates http://www.bcp38.info 2000 Land Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA BCP38: Ask For It By Name! +1 727 647 1274

Jason Baugher, Network Operations Manager
405 Emminga Road | PO Box 217 | Golden, IL 62339-0217
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Re: "Permanent" DST

[Roy]

  
  
Actually I think the proposed bill
  leaves AZ and HI on standard time.  The bill's primary focus is on
  stopping the changing of the clock twice a year.
  
  Arizona time is supposedly MST all year but it is not consistent. 
  The Indian nations adopt their own rules whether to use DST or
  not.  Example: the Navajo nations uses DST but Hopi nation
  doesn't.  You can plot a trip from east to west across AZ and have
  to change your clock seven times!
  
  
  
  On 3/15/2022 12:44 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:


  
  We already have this problem with Arizona, which never changes
  time for the summer. 
  
  -mel via cell
  
On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:40 PM, Eric Kuhnke
   wrote:
  

  
  

  If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same
time, it'll be a real hassle, dealing with a change from -8
to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, for instance.
It has to be done consistently throughout North America.

  
  
  
On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at
  12:35, Jay R. Ashworth <j...@baylink.com>
  wrote:


  The bill is "permanently move all US time zones one hour
  earlier (-8 thru -5 is 
  replaced permanently with -7 thru -4).
  
  They are *calling it* "permanent DST", but that's not
  really what's happening, 
  in my engineering appraisal.  Or my geopolitical one, but
  I don't lay claim 
  to professional opinions there.
  -- jra
  
  - Original Message -
  > From: "Mel Beckman" <m...@beckman.org>
  > To: "jra" <j...@baylink.com>
  > Cc: "nanog@nanog.org
  list" <nanog@nanog.org>
      > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:19:11 PM
  > Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
  
  > I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of
  moving the US fifteen
  > degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads
  “permanent DST”, but from
  > your language the bill will be permanent standard
  time.
  > 
  > I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can
  explain your position more
  > clearly.
  > 
  > -mel via cell
  > 
  >> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <j...@baylink.com>
  wrote:
  >> 
  >> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate
  approved a bill which would
  >> 
  >> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
  >> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15
  degrees to the east.
  >> 
  >> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my
  rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will
  >> fail, because it's likely to be the end of
  rational time worldwide, and even
  >> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your
  life difficult.
  >> 
  >> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds
  to scream about this on...
  >> 
  >> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be
  more coherent in their
  >> decision on this engineering construct.
  >> 
  >> Cheers,
  >> -- jra
  >> 
  >> --
  >> Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink         
               j...@baylink.com
  >> Designer                     The Things I Think 
                       RFC 2100
  >> Ashworth & Associates       http://www.bcp38.info 
          2000 Land Rover DII
  > > St Petersburg FL USA      BCP38: Ask For It By
  Name!           +1 727 647 1274
  
  -- 
  Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                 
       j...@baylink.com
  Designer                     The Things I Think           
             RFC 2100
  Ashworth & Associates       http://www.bcp38.info 
          2000 Land Rover DII
  St Petersburg FL USA      BCP38: Ask For It By Name!     
       +1 727 647 1274

  

  


  

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Mel Beckman]

Ok, this just in from MST3K:

“The change will take place at noon earth time.”

-mel via cell

On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:53 PM, Kain, Becki (.)  wrote:


Wouldn’t that move Detroit into Lake Erie?

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
james.cut...@consultant.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 4:16 PM
To: Jay R. Ashworth 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution 
when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding.

On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth 
mailto:j...@baylink.com>> wrote:

In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would

1) Cancel DST permanently, and
2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.

While I thoroughly agree with item 1, I suggest that the seismic consequences 
of item 2 would not be favorable.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay Ashworth]

It has been bubbling under for some years-there are about I think it's 10 or 11 
states which have already passed state laws changing it, pending that the 
federal law blocking those be dropped-that's the Uniform Time Act of 1966 if I 
have the title correct.

And to reply to somebody else his comment, the exceptions to the 15 degree rule 
which already exists already caused problems, so there isn't any reason to 
believe that bumping this down to the state and local level won't make things 
even more confusing. 

I wonder how big the buffers in the Timezone Library are; is ADO on this list?

On March 15, 2022 4:24:50 PM EDT, "Elmar K. Bins"  wrote:
>dedel...@iname.com (Dave) wrote:
>
>> Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard 
>> thing to accomplish
>
>Well...
>
>1 - I'm surprised anybody is running local timezones on their systems at all
>
>2 - I like how american politics is capable of creating new problems; where
>did this bill come from in the first place? And who's lobbying?
>
>Elmar.
>

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay Hennigan]

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 13:11, Kain, Becki (.)  wrote:
> 
> 
> What does Arizona do since you’re saying all of N America has to be the same?
> 
Arizona doesn’t do daylight time at all. They stay MST year-round. During the 
summer they are the same as California. 

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Eric Tykwinski]

What I don’t understand, is why change time, just change working hours.  
I’m all for giving up the time change, but the standard should probably still 
be UTC offset.
If you work 9-5, change it to 10-6.  Every company can post working hours on 
their website.
Obviously for most of us, it’s a moot point.

P.S.  Anyone working at NIST or a similar org probably needs a raise for 
dealing with all the exceptions.

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:16 PM, Joly MacFie  wrote:
> 
> WaPo has a been there done that item today.
> 
> https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-saving-time-in-the-70s-people-hated-it/
>  
> 
> 
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:11 PM Jay R. Ashworth  > wrote:
> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
> 
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
> 
> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will
> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even
> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
> 
> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
> 
> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
> decision on this engineering construct.
> 
> Cheers,
> -- jra
> 
> -- 
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
> j...@baylink.com 
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info 
>   2000 Land Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274
> 
> 
> -- 
> --
> Joly MacFie  +12185659365 
> --
> -

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay Ashworth]

Sure, but you imply that the proposed alternative=-going to permanent DST--is 
only a trivial change to, and it is not. It violates the international rule 
determining what your time zone should be based on what your longitude is. 

That is not trivial.

On March 15, 2022 4:25:21 PM EDT, "james.cut...@consultant.com" 
 wrote:
>Folks, for most, this change removes the twice yearly disruption of their 
>circadian rhythm and consequent surge of accidents and injuries.
>
>My timely recommendation, which also require change to a single file, is to 
>stick to “standard” time year round making solar high noon closer to 12:00.
>
>   Jim
>
>> On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:10 PM, Dave  wrote:
>> 
>> Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard 
>> thing to accomplish
>> 
>> Dave
>

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Eric Kuhnke]

That is true but at present everything business related in BC has a clear
expectation of being in the same time zone as WA/OR/CA, and AB matches US
Mountain time.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 13:35, Paul Ebersman  wrote:

> eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a
> eric> real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the
> eric> border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done
> eric> consistently throughout North America.
>
> You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by
> choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.
>
>

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Paul Ebersman]

eric> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a
eric> real hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the
eric> border between BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done
eric> consistently throughout North America.

You must not have ever dealt with Indiana, where it was DST or not by
choice per county. It wasn't quite the cluster***k you'd think.

RE: "Permanent" DST

[Kain, Becki (.)]

Wouldn't that move Detroit into Lake Erie?

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
james.cut...@consultant.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 4:16 PM
To: Jay R. Ashworth 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution 
when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding.

On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth 
mailto:j...@baylink.com>> wrote:

In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would

1) Cancel DST permanently, and
2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.

While I thoroughly agree with item 1, I suggest that the seismic consequences 
of item 2 would not be favorable.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[james.cut...@consultant.com]

Folks, for most, this change removes the twice yearly disruption of their 
circadian rhythm and consequent surge of accidents and injuries.

My timely recommendation, which also require change to a single file, is to 
stick to “standard” time year round making solar high noon closer to 12:00.

Jim

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 4:10 PM, Dave  wrote:
> 
> Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard 
> thing to accomplish
> 
> Dave

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Elmar K. Bins]

dedel...@iname.com (Dave) wrote:

> Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard 
> thing to accomplish

Well...

1 - I'm surprised anybody is running local timezones on their systems at all

2 - I like how american politics is capable of creating new problems; where
did this bill come from in the first place? And who's lobbying?

Elmar.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Michael Lambert]

Since the nominal (15 degree slice) boundary between Mountain and Pacific goes 
right through the Phoenix metro area, it sort of makes sense that Arizona would 
stay on the same time year round.

Michael

> On 15 Mar 2022, at 15:44:12, Mel Beckman  wrote:
> 
> We already have this problem with Arizona, which never changes time for the 
> summer. 
> 
> -mel via cell
> 
>> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:40 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real 
>> hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC 
>> and WA, for instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North 
>> America. 
>> 
>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 12:35, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
>> The bill is "permanently move all US time zones one hour earlier (-8 thru -5 
>> is 
>> replaced permanently with -7 thru -4).
>> 
>> They are *calling it* "permanent DST", but that's not really what's 
>> happening, 
>> in my engineering appraisal.  Or my geopolitical one, but I don't lay claim 
>> to professional opinions there.
>> -- jra
>> 
>> - Original Message -----
>> > From: "Mel Beckman" 
>> > To: "jra" 
>> > Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" 
>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:19:11 PM
>> > Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
>> 
>> > I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen
>> > degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but 
>> > from
>> > your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
>> > 
>> > I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more
>> > clearly.
>> > 
>> > -mel via cell
>> > 
>> >> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>> >> 
>> >> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
>> >> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>> >> 
>> >> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it 
>> >> will
>> >> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and 
>> >> even
>> >> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>> >> 
>> >> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>> >> 
>> >> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
>> >> decision on this engineering construct.
>> >> 
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> -- jra
>> >> 
>> >> --
>> >> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
>> >> j...@baylink.com
>> >> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 
>> >> 2100
>> >> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land 
>> >> Rover DII
>> > > St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 
>> > > 647 1274
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
>> j...@baylink.com
>> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 
>> 2100
>> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover 
>> DII
>> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 
>> 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Michael Lambert]

My understanding is that Russian time zones are one hour “east” of where they 
should be and that China, despite its size, is a single time zone. So this 
proposal isn’t unique. Whether it’s good is a different question…

Michael

> On 15 Mar 2022, at 15:44:46, Brian R  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for finding the clarification on this Ray.
> 
> I'm with the OP Jay that this will cause long term problems.  The 15 degrees 
> is not mentioned in the document just the change from "Standard Time" to 
> "Daylight Time" permanently (they probably don't even understand it is in 15 
> degree increments).  This will cause problems in systems across many sectors. 
>  The entire world works on UTC + or - on a 15 degree scale.  Except now the 
> US which will be 15 degree scale -15 degrees.  I doubt Canada, Central, or 
> South Americas are going to follow this so the United States will always be 
> 15 degrees off of what is considered "Standard Time" by the world.
> The better solution would be to remove DST all together and tell everyone in 
> the US to start work at 07:00 and get off work at 16:00 every day.
> 
> Brian
> From: NANOG  on behalf of 
> Ray Van Dolson via NANOG 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:26 PM
> To: Mel Beckman ; Jay R. Ashworth 
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
> Subject: RE: "Permanent" DST
>  
> I think this is essentially the bill:
> 
> https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text
> 
> Not finding anything about 15 degrees.
> 
> Ray
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Mel 
> Beckman
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:19 PM
> To: Jay R. Ashworth 
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
> 
> I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen 
> degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from 
> your language the bill will be permanent standard time. 
> 
> I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more 
> clearly. 
> 
> -mel via cell
> 
> > On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
> > 
> > In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
> > 
> > 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> > 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
> > 
> > My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, 
> > it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time 
> > worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life 
> > difficult.
> > 
> > I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
> > 
> > Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their 
> > decision on this engineering construct.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > -- jra
> > 
> > -- 
> > Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
> > j...@baylink.com
> > Designer The Things I Think   RFC 
> > 2100
> > Ashworth & Associates   
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH-Gk4LCElbaWSsLXzHYDHHpxEqU0OZW56655xb8Df0mA4p1wvA$
> >  [bcp38[.]info]  2000 Land Rover DII
> > St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 
> > 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Peter Potvin via NANOG]

>
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.


Mind if I ask where you got this? Nowhere can I find an article or bill
referencing this specific point. This article

references a Senate bill from March 9th 2021
 that
makes no mention of this point at all.

Regards,
Peter

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:14 PM Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:

> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>
> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it
> will
> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and
> even
> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>
> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>
> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
> decision on this engineering construct.
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
>
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC
> 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land
> Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647
> 1274
>

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Re: "Permanent" DST

[Andy Ringsmuth]

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
> 
> If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real hassle, 
> dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, 
> for instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North America. 

Nah, not really a big deal. The transportation world has handled it just fine 
for Arizona, and previously, Indiana.

Heck, here’s where it gets real confusing.

Arizona does not observe DST as a state. However, freight railroads in Arizona 
DO. At least BNSF Railway does. So for a good chunk of the year, if you are 
involved with the railroad, you have to clarify if events are happening at 8 
a.m. city time or 8 a.m. railroad time.

At least that’s how it was last time I was down there as a railroad contractor.

-Andy

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Joly MacFie]

WaPo has a been there done that item today.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-saving-time-in-the-70s-people-hated-it/

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:11 PM Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:

> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>
> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it
> will
> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and
> even
> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>
> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>
> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
> decision on this engineering construct.
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
>
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC
> 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land
> Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647
> 1274
>


-- 
--
Joly MacFie  +12185659365
--
-

Re: "Permanent" DST

[brian . johnson]

So to clarify/muddy the situation further... Time zones do not fall purely on 
the 15 degree lines on a globe. As such, the location of the sun overhead is 
locality specific within a timezone.

Don’t let the enemy of done win here. ;)


> On Mar 15, 2022, at 2:44 PM, Brian R  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for finding the clarification on this Ray.
> 
> I'm with the OP Jay that this will cause long term problems.  The 15 degrees 
> is not mentioned in the document just the change from "Standard Time" to 
> "Daylight Time" permanently (they probably don't even understand it is in 15 
> degree increments).  This will cause problems in systems across many sectors. 
>  The entire world works on UTC + or - on a 15 degree scale.  Except now the 
> US which will be 15 degree scale -15 degrees.  I doubt Canada, Central, or 
> South Americas are going to follow this so the United States will always be 
> 15 degrees off of what is considered "Standard Time" by the world.
> The better solution would be to remove DST all together and tell everyone in 
> the US to start work at 07:00 and get off work at 16:00 every day.
> 
> Brian
> From: NANOG  <mailto:nanog-bounces+briansupport=hotmail@nanog.org>> on behalf of Ray 
> Van Dolson via NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:26 PM
> To: Mel Beckman mailto:m...@beckman.org>>; Jay R. Ashworth 
> mailto:j...@baylink.com>>
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list  <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
> Subject: RE: "Permanent" DST
>  
> I think this is essentially the bill:
> 
> https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text 
> <https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text>
> 
> Not finding anything about 15 degrees.
> 
> Ray
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: NANOG  <mailto:nanog-bounces+rvandolson=esri@nanog.org>> On Behalf Of Mel Beckman
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:19 PM
> To: Jay R. Ashworth mailto:j...@baylink.com>>
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list  <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
> 
> I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen 
> degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from 
> your language the bill will be permanent standard time. 
> 
> I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more 
> clearly. 
> 
> -mel via cell
> 
> > On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  > <mailto:j...@baylink.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
> > 
> > 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> > 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
> > 
> > My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, 
> > it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time 
> > worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life 
> > difficult.
> > 
> > I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
> > 
> > Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their 
> > decision on this engineering construct.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > -- jra
> > 
> > -- 
> > Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
> > j...@baylink.com <mailto:j...@baylink.com>
> > Designer The Things I Think   RFC 
> > 2100
> > Ashworth & Associates   
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH-Gk4LCElbaWSsLXzHYDHHpxEqU0OZW56655xb8Df0mA4p1wvA$
> >  
> > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH-Gk4LCElbaWSsLXzHYDHHpxEqU0OZW56655xb8Df0mA4p1wvA$>
> >  [bcp38[.]info]  2000 Land Rover DII
> > St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 
> > 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[james.cut...@consultant.com]

On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
> 
> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
> 
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.

While I thoroughly agree with item 1, I suggest that the seismic consequences 
of item 2 would not be favorable.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Dave]

Folks for most systems, this is a change to a single file. Not a really hard 
thing to accomplish

Dave

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:19 PM, Dave  wrote:
> 
> Ending DST is a really good idea. 
> 
> Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental 
> impact statement will take forever to write
> 
> Dave
> 
>> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
>> 
>> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>> 
>> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
>> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>> 
>> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will
>> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even
>> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>> 
>> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>> 
>> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
>> decision on this engineering construct.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> -- jra
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
>> j...@baylink.com
>> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 
>> 2100
>> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover 
>> DII
>> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 
>> 1274
> 

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay Hennigan]

On 3/15/22 12:40, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real 
hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between 
BC and WA, for instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North 
America.


That would be no different than crossing state lines where the time zone 
changes. I don't perceive a significant impact.


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

RE: "Permanent" DST

[Kain, Becki (.)]

What does Arizona do since you’re saying all of N America has to be the same?


From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Eric Kuhnke
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:41 PM
To: Jay R. Ashworth 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution 
when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding.

If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real hassle, 
dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, for 
instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North America.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 12:35, Jay R. Ashworth 
mailto:j...@baylink.com>> wrote:
The bill is "permanently move all US time zones one hour earlier (-8 thru -5 is
replaced permanently with -7 thru -4).

They are *calling it* "permanent DST", but that's not really what's happening,
in my engineering appraisal.  Or my geopolitical one, but I don't lay claim
to professional opinions there.
-- jra

- Original Message -
> From: "Mel Beckman" mailto:m...@beckman.org>>
> To: "jra" mailto:j...@baylink.com>>
> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list" 
> mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:19:11 PM
> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

> I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen
> degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from
> your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
>
> I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more
> clearly.
>
> -mel via cell
>
>> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth 
>> mailto:j...@baylink.com>> wrote:
>>
>> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>>
>> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
>> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>>
>> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will
>> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even
>> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>>
>> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>>
>> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
>> decision on this engineering construct.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -- jra
>>
>> --
>> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
>> j...@baylink.com<mailto:j...@baylink.com>
>> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 
>> 2100
>> Ashworth & Associates   
>> http://www.bcp38.info<https://clicktime.symantec.com/3BzmqZJWfDvcN9m2Tttvcqa6xn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bcp38.info>
>>   2000 Land Rover DII
> > St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 
> > 1274

--
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
j...@baylink.com<mailto:j...@baylink.com>
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   
http://www.bcp38.info<https://clicktime.symantec.com/3BzmqZJWfDvcN9m2Tttvcqa6xn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bcp38.info>
  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Thomas Scott]

Interesting - AZ would join PDT as UTC-7. I wonder if they'd switch to line
up with the rest of MDT.

- Thomas Scott | mr.thomas.sc...@gmail.com


On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:47 PM  wrote:

> Apparently this also adjusted the calendar, making today 2022-04-01 ?
>
>

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Brian R]

Thanks for finding the clarification on this Ray.

I'm with the OP Jay that this will cause long term problems.  The 15 degrees is 
not mentioned in the document just the change from "Standard Time" to "Daylight 
Time" permanently (they probably don't even understand it is in 15 degree 
increments).  This will cause problems in systems across many sectors.  The 
entire world works on UTC + or - on a 15 degree scale.  Except now the US which 
will be 15 degree scale -15 degrees.  I doubt Canada, Central, or South 
Americas are going to follow this so the United States will always be 15 
degrees off of what is considered "Standard Time" by the world.
The better solution would be to remove DST all together and tell everyone in 
the US to start work at 07:00 and get off work at 16:00 every day.

Brian

From: NANOG  on behalf of Ray 
Van Dolson via NANOG 
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:26 PM
To: Mel Beckman ; Jay R. Ashworth 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
Subject: RE: "Permanent" DST

I think this is essentially the bill:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text

Not finding anything about 15 degrees.

Ray

-Original Message-
From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Mel 
Beckman
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:19 PM
To: Jay R. Ashworth 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen 
degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from 
your language the bill will be permanent standard time.

I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more 
clearly.

-mel via cell

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
>
> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>
> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully,
> it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time
> worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life 
> difficult.
>
> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>
> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
> decision on this engineering construct.
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
>
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH-Gk4LCElbaWSsLXzHYDHHpxEqU0OZW56655xb8Df0mA4p1wvA$
>  [bcp38[.]info]  2000 Land Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Mel Beckman]

We already have this problem with Arizona, which never changes time for the 
summer.

-mel via cell

On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:40 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:


If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real hassle, 
dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC and WA, for 
instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North America.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 12:35, Jay R. Ashworth 
mailto:j...@baylink.com>> wrote:
The bill is "permanently move all US time zones one hour earlier (-8 thru -5 is
replaced permanently with -7 thru -4).

They are *calling it* "permanent DST", but that's not really what's happening,
in my engineering appraisal.  Or my geopolitical one, but I don't lay claim
to professional opinions there.
-- jra

- Original Message -
> From: "Mel Beckman" mailto:m...@beckman.org>>
> To: "jra" mailto:j...@baylink.com>>
> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> list" 
> mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:19:11 PM
> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

> I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen
> degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from
> your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
>
> I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more
> clearly.
>
> -mel via cell
>
>> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth 
>> mailto:j...@baylink.com>> wrote:
>>
>> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>>
>> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
>> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>>
>> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will
>> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even
>> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>>
>> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>>
>> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
>> decision on this engineering construct.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -- jra
>>
>> --
>> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
>> j...@baylink.com<mailto:j...@baylink.com>
>> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 
>> 2100
>> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover 
>> DII
> > St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 
> > 1274

--
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
j...@baylink.com<mailto:j...@baylink.com>
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay Hennigan]

On 3/15/22 12:26, Ray Van Dolson via NANOG wrote:

I think this is essentially the bill:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text

Not finding anything about 15 degrees.


The 15 degrees is kind of a joke. It means that "high noon", when the 
sun is at zenith, would occur roughly 15 degrees east of noon local 
clock time.


It's kind of like the meme showing a Native American saying, "Only a 
white man would cut a foot off of the top of a blanket, sew it on the 
bottom, and think he has a longer blanket."


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Mel Beckman]

Ok, so the fifteen degrees is bogus, nothing moves, and all that is really 
happening is standard time is ending. The OP here wins an award for 
“obfuscating reality”.

No sweat. Fixing all the systems to comply with the new time rules is billable 
:)



-mel via cell

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:36 PM, William Herrin  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 12:33 PM Ray Van Dolson via NANOG
>  wrote:
>> I think this is essentially the bill:
>> https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text
>> 
>> Not finding anything about 15 degrees.
> 
> 360 / 24 = 15. Because we'd standardize on DST instead of the old
> railroad time zones. It's a variation on the old saw about Congress
> repealing the inconvenient laws of physics.
> 
> -Bill
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> William Herrin
> b...@herrin.us
> https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Eric Kuhnke]

If Canada doesn't do the same thing at the same time, it'll be a real
hassle, dealing with a change from -8 to -7 crossing the border between BC
and WA, for instance. It has to be done consistently throughout North
America.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 at 12:35, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:

> The bill is "permanently move all US time zones one hour earlier (-8 thru
> -5 is
> replaced permanently with -7 thru -4).
>
> They are *calling it* "permanent DST", but that's not really what's
> happening,
> in my engineering appraisal.  Or my geopolitical one, but I don't lay
> claim
> to professional opinions there.
> -- jra
>
> - Original Message -
> > From: "Mel Beckman" 
> > To: "jra" 
> > Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" 
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:19:11 PM
> > Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST
>
> > I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen
> > degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but
> from
> > your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
> >
> > I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position
> more
> > clearly.
> >
> > -mel via cell
> >
> >> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
> >>
> >> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
> >>
> >> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> >> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
> >>
> >> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it
> will
> >> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and
> even
> >> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
> >>
> >> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this
> on...
> >>
> >> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
> >> decision on this engineering construct.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> -- jra
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink
> j...@baylink.com
> >> Designer The Things I Think
>  RFC 2100
> >> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land
> Rover DII
> > > St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727
> 647 1274
>
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC
> 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land
> Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647
> 1274
>

RE: "Permanent" DST

[Kain, Becki (.)]

Well, it would create term limits


-Original Message-
From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Jay Hennigan
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:22 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

WARNING: This message originated outside of Ford Motor Company. Use caution 
when opening attachments, clicking links, or responding.


On 3/15/22 12:19, Dave wrote:
> Ending DST is a really good idea.
>
> Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the 
> environmental impact statement will take forever to write

Moving 15 degrees east would put Washington DC in the middle of the Atlantic 
Ocean. This might not be a bad thing.

--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

Re: "Permanent" DST

[hak]

Apparently this also adjusted the calendar, making today 2022-04-01 ?

Re: "Permanent" DST

[William Herrin]

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 12:33 PM Ray Van Dolson via NANOG
 wrote:
> I think this is essentially the bill:
> https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text
>
> Not finding anything about 15 degrees.

360 / 24 = 15. Because we'd standardize on DST instead of the old
railroad time zones. It's a variation on the old saw about Congress
repealing the inconvenient laws of physics.

-Bill



-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: "Permanent" DST

[PJ Capelli via NANOG]

   But how will we remember to change the batteries in our smoke and CO2 detectors then? Sent from ProtonMail for iOS On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:19 PM, Dave  wrote:  Ending DST is a really good idea.Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental impact statement will take forever to writeDave> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:>> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would>> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.>> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.>> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...>> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their> decision on this engineering construct.>> Cheers,> -- jra>> --> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay R. Ashworth]

The bill is "permanently move all US time zones one hour earlier (-8 thru -5 is 
replaced permanently with -7 thru -4).

They are *calling it* "permanent DST", but that's not really what's happening, 
in my engineering appraisal.  Or my geopolitical one, but I don't lay claim 
to professional opinions there.
-- jra

- Original Message -
> From: "Mel Beckman" 
> To: "jra" 
> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org list" 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 3:19:11 PM
> Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

> I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen
> degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from
> your language the bill will be permanent standard time.
> 
> I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more
> clearly.
> 
> -mel via cell
> 
>> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
>> 
>> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>> 
>> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
>> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>> 
>> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will
>> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even
>> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>> 
>> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>> 
>> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
>> decision on this engineering construct.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> -- jra
>> 
>> --
>> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
>> j...@baylink.com
>> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 
>> 2100
>> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover 
>> DII
> > St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 
> > 1274

-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

RE: "Permanent" DST

[Ray Van Dolson via NANOG]

I think this is essentially the bill:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/69/text

Not finding anything about 15 degrees.

Ray

-Original Message-
From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Mel 
Beckman
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 12:19 PM
To: Jay R. Ashworth 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org list 
Subject: Re: "Permanent" DST

I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen 
degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from 
your language the bill will be permanent standard time. 

I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more 
clearly. 

-mel via cell

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
> 
> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
> 
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
> 
> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, 
> it will fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time 
> worldwide, and even if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life 
> difficult.
> 
> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
> 
> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their 
> decision on this engineering construct.
> 
> Cheers,
> -- jra
> 
> -- 
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.bcp38.info__;!!CKZwjTOV!jlq104a9OT4LH-Gk4LCElbaWSsLXzHYDHHpxEqU0OZW56655xb8Df0mA4p1wvA$
>  [bcp38[.]info]  2000 Land Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Collider]

Permanent DST has the same effect as cancelling DST and moving all the 
timezones up one hour. Since timezones are roughly sliced every 15 degrees of 
... longitude?, hefting the physical US 15 degrees eastward would have the same 
effect on timezones as just a legal glitch to change them.

On 15 March 2022 19:19:11 UTC, Mel Beckman  wrote:
>I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen 
>degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from 
>your language the bill will be permanent standard time. 
>
>I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more 
>clearly. 
>
>-mel via cell
>
>> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
>> 
>> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
>> 
>> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
>> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
>> 
>> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will
>> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even
>> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
>> 
>> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
>> 
>> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
>> decision on this engineering construct.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> -- jra
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
>> j...@baylink.com
>> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 
>> 2100
>> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover 
>> DII
>> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 
>> 1274

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Jay Hennigan]

On 3/15/22 12:19, Dave wrote:

Ending DST is a really good idea.

Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental impact 
statement will take forever to write


Moving 15 degrees east would put Washington DC in the middle of the 
Atlantic Ocean. This might not be a bad thing.


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Mel Beckman]

I don’t follow why cancelling DST has the effect of moving the US fifteen 
degrees to the east. Also, your subject line reads “permanent DST”, but from 
your language the bill will be permanent standard time. 

I haven’t read the bill, but I’m hoping you can explain your position more 
clearly. 

-mel via cell

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:13 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
> 
> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
> 
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
> 
> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will
> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even
> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
> 
> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
> 
> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
> decision on this engineering construct.
> 
> Cheers,
> -- jra
> 
> -- 
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: "Permanent" DST

[Dave]

Ending DST is a really good idea. 

Moving 15 degrees East not so much but let’s face it, the environmental impact 
statement will take forever to write

Dave

> On Mar 15, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth  wrote:
> 
> In a unanimous vote today, the US Senate approved a bill which would
> 
> 1) Cancel DST permanently, and
> 2) Move every square inch of US territory 15 degrees to the east.
> 
> My opinion of this ought to be obvious from my rhetoric.  Hopefully, it will
> fail, because it's likely to be the end of rational time worldwide, and even
> if you do log in UTC, it will still make your life difficult.
> 
> I'm poleaxed; I can't even decide which grounds to scream about this on...
> 
> Hopefully, the House or the White House will be more coherent in their
> decision on this engineering construct.
> 
> Cheers,
> -- jra
> 
> -- 
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274