Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Matthew Crocker]

You can’t push a T1 through a load-coil which are normally placed every mile on 
copper.   Typically the telco would cut the load-coil out of the 2 T1 pairs and 
install a repeater to push the T1 the next mile.  That is with a traditional T1 
circuit.   Most T1s these days are 2 wire HDSL which has a max of about 12k 
feet.  So for 6 miles you’ll need 3 repeaters in the span *if* you have good 
copper.



From: NANOG  on behalf of Nick Bogle 
Date: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 10:00 PM
To: Dan Hollis 
Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" 
Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair

The driving distance is 4 miles, we are leasing it from CenturyLink whose 
headend maybe adds a mile or less, it's on the route and about half way 
through. I made it 6 miles to be safe. We currently can pull a full 1.5Mbps off 
of that T1 we run there so perhaps CenturyLink is repeating at their CO and/or 
along the route?


On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 6:32 PM Dan Hollis 
mailto:goe...@sasami.anime.net>> wrote:
I doubt he will get >1.5mbps with those over a 6 mile long connection.

I did a quick check and flowpoint 2200s seem to max out at 192kbps at 3
miles.

-Dan

On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Tim Pozar wrote:

> For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached).  I
> picked these up for a sawbuck.
>
> Tim
>
> On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
>>> A quick question for you guys;
>>>
>>> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones)
>>> to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We
>>> currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't
>>> cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally
>>> protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber
>>> etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point
>>> wireless is
>>> practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that
>>> uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer
>> than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco
>> CO.
>>
>> I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any
>> faster than you're getting with T1.
>>
>> You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there
>> is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done.
>> http://hamwan.org/
>>
>> -Dan
>

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Andy Ringsmuth]

> On Dec 13, 2018, at 4:27 PM, Hunter Fuller  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 4:22 PM Dan Hollis  wrote:
> Repeaters are standard for T1s.
> 
> I strongly suggest looking at wireless. There is almost guaranteed to be a 
> spot you can put a repeater up to bridge you to your gateway.
> 
> Maybe this has been mentioned, and I missed it, but: A hybrid solution could 
> also be considered.
> You could use a shorter dry pair to get around whatever obstacle is 
> preventing wireless, and then use wireless the rest of the way.

Any chance the OP could show us on, say, Google Maps, where this is at? Maybe 
that will help generate some innovative solutions.


-Andy

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Hunter Fuller]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 4:22 PM Dan Hollis  wrote:

> Repeaters are standard for T1s.
>
> I strongly suggest looking at wireless. There is almost guaranteed to be a
> spot you can put a repeater up to bridge you to your gateway.
>
> Maybe this has been mentioned, and I missed it, but: A hybrid solution
could also be considered.
You could use a shorter dry pair to get around whatever obstacle is
preventing wireless, and then use wireless the rest of the way.

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Dan Hollis]

Repeaters are standard for T1s.

I strongly suggest looking at wireless. There is almost guaranteed to be a 
spot you can put a repeater up to bridge you to your gateway.


-Dan

On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:


The driving distance is 4 miles, we are leasing it from CenturyLink whose
headend maybe adds a mile or less, it's on the route and about half way
through. I made it 6 miles to be safe. We currently can pull a full 1.5Mbps
off of that T1 we run there so perhaps CenturyLink is repeating at their CO
and/or along the route?


On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 6:32 PM Dan Hollis  wrote:


I doubt he will get >1.5mbps with those over a 6 mile long connection.

I did a quick check and flowpoint 2200s seem to max out at 192kbps at 3
miles.

-Dan

On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Tim Pozar wrote:


For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached).  I
picked these up for a sawbuck.

Tim

On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:

On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:

A quick question for you guys;

If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for

phones)

to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We
currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't
cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally
protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure

(fiber

etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point
wireless is
practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that
uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.

Any suggestions?


If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer
than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco
CO.

I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any
faster than you're getting with T1.

You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there
is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done.
http://hamwan.org/

-Dan

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Carl Peterson]

With CL in the middle, EoC might be an option.  Personally, I'd find a
local WISP and see what they can come up with for you.
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 10:01 PM Nick Bogle  wrote:

> The driving distance is 4 miles, we are leasing it from CenturyLink whose
> headend maybe adds a mile or less, it's on the route and about half way
> through. I made it 6 miles to be safe. We currently can pull a full 1.5Mbps
> off of that T1 we run there so perhaps CenturyLink is repeating at their CO
> and/or along the route?
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 6:32 PM Dan Hollis 
> wrote:
>
>> I doubt he will get >1.5mbps with those over a 6 mile long connection.
>>
>> I did a quick check and flowpoint 2200s seem to max out at 192kbps at 3
>> miles.
>>
>> -Dan
>>
>> On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Tim Pozar wrote:
>>
>> > For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached).  I
>> > picked these up for a sawbuck.
>> >
>> > Tim
>> >
>> > On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
>> >>> A quick question for you guys;
>> >>>
>> >>> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for
>> phones)
>> >>> to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We
>> >>> currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't
>> >>> cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally
>> >>> protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure
>> (fiber
>> >>> etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point
>> >>> wireless is
>> >>> practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender
>> that
>> >>> uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
>> >>>
>> >>> Any suggestions?
>> >>
>> >> If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer
>> >> than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a
>> telco
>> >> CO.
>> >>
>> >> I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair
>> any
>> >> faster than you're getting with T1.
>> >>
>> >> You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there
>> >> is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done.
>> >> http://hamwan.org/
>> >>
>> >> -Dan
>> >
>>
>

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Tim Pozar]

For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached).  I
picked these up for a sawbuck.

Tim

On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
>> A quick question for you guys;
>>
>> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones)
>> to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We
>> currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't
>> cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally
>> protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber
>> etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point
>> wireless is
>> practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that
>> uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
> 
> If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer
> than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco
> CO.
> 
> I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any
> faster than you're getting with T1.
> 
> You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there
> is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done.
> http://hamwan.org/
> 
> -Dan

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Mike Hammett]

You don't even need LOS to move more than 1.5 megabit/s over wireless. 

I think the best bet is to consult people that actually know wireless. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Dan Hollis"  
To: "Nick Bogle"  
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 7:00:23 PM 
Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair 

On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote: 
> A quick question for you guys; 
> 
> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) 
> to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We 
> currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't 
> cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally 
> protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber 
> etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is 
> practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that 
> uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity. 
> 
> Any suggestions? 

If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer 
than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco 
CO. 

I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any 
faster than you're getting with T1. 

You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there is 
no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done. http://hamwan.org/ 

-Dan 

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Nick Bogle]

The driving distance is 4 miles, we are leasing it from CenturyLink whose
headend maybe adds a mile or less, it's on the route and about half way
through. I made it 6 miles to be safe. We currently can pull a full 1.5Mbps
off of that T1 we run there so perhaps CenturyLink is repeating at their CO
and/or along the route?


On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 6:32 PM Dan Hollis  wrote:

> I doubt he will get >1.5mbps with those over a 6 mile long connection.
>
> I did a quick check and flowpoint 2200s seem to max out at 192kbps at 3
> miles.
>
> -Dan
>
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Tim Pozar wrote:
>
> > For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached).  I
> > picked these up for a sawbuck.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:
> >> On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
> >>> A quick question for you guys;
> >>>
> >>> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for
> phones)
> >>> to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We
> >>> currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't
> >>> cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally
> >>> protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure
> (fiber
> >>> etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point
> >>> wireless is
> >>> practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that
> >>> uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
> >>>
> >>> Any suggestions?
> >>
> >> If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer
> >> than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco
> >> CO.
> >>
> >> I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any
> >> faster than you're getting with T1.
> >>
> >> You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there
> >> is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done.
> >> http://hamwan.org/
> >>
> >> -Dan
> >
>

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Miles Fidelman]

It really does seem like repeaters are a necessity.  If he can put power 
down the wires, and get to them to install repeaters, that would seem 
the obvious way to go.


Miles


On 12/12/18 9:32 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:

I doubt he will get >1.5mbps with those over a 6 mile long connection.

I did a quick check and flowpoint 2200s seem to max out at 192kbps at 
3 miles.


-Dan

On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Tim Pozar wrote:


For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached).  I
picked these up for a sawbuck.

Tim

On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:

On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:

A quick question for you guys;

If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for 
phones)

to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We
currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't
cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally
protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure 
(fiber

etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point
wireless is
practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender 
that

uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.

Any suggestions?


If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer
than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a 
telco

CO.

I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair 
any

faster than you're getting with T1.

You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there
is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done.
http://hamwan.org/

-Dan




--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Dan Hollis]

I doubt he will get >1.5mbps with those over a 6 mile long connection.

I did a quick check and flowpoint 2200s seem to max out at 192kbps at 3 
miles.


-Dan

On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Tim Pozar wrote:


For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached).  I
picked these up for a sawbuck.

Tim

On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:

On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:

A quick question for you guys;

If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones)
to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We
currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't
cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally
protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber
etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point
wireless is
practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that
uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.

Any suggestions?


If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer
than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco
CO.

I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any
faster than you're getting with T1.

You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there
is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done.
http://hamwan.org/

-Dan

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Dan Hollis]

On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:

A quick question for you guys;

If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones)
to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We
currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't
cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally
protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber
etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is
practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that
uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.

Any suggestions?


If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer 
than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco 
CO.


I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any 
faster than you're getting with T1.


You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there is 
no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done. http://hamwan.org/


-Dan

RE: Extending network over a dry pair

[Marshall, Quincy]

I used to take “dry pairs” or “alarm circuits” and take SDSL modems to create 
high bandwidth ( up to 10Mbps, relative to the time) circuits. They were very 
reliable and incredibly cheap (@$22-88/mo). Regional bell at the time (or at 
least in my area) would make it difficult to order. Had to find the order codes.

Looks like these new units are updates to what was around, but they were very 
testy on line quality/distance. the first rule … ‘no load’. Suggest trying the 
water in the shallow end first.

LQ Marshall

From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces+quincy.marshall=reged@nanog.org] On 
Behalf Of Jeremy Austin
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:38 PM
To: lath...@gmail.com
Cc: NANOG list 
Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair

For a comparison of distance to capacity on copper, see 
http://www.impulse-corp.co.uk/knowledge-base/transmission-distance-and-speed-differences-between-shdsl-and-vdsl2.htm

You might be able to pair bond -- if you had more than one pair.

If wireless isn't possible, you're likely needing satellite.

On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 12:35 PM Andrew Latham 
mailto:lath...@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 3:27 PM Nick Bogle 
mailto:n...@bogle.se>> wrote:
A quick question for you guys;

If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a 
remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are 
just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. 
Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve 
so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a 
geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking 
there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher 
bandwidth capacity.

Any suggestions?

Look for an SHDSL Ethernet Extender

--
- Andrew "lathama" Latham -


--
Jeremy Austin
jhaus...@gmail.com<mailto:jhaus...@gmail.com>

(907) 895-2311 office
(907) 803-5422 cell
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Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Jameson, Daniel]

Look at a Hatteras hn400 and lpu  You can get about 5mbs/pair using g.shdsl.  
pairs can be bonded to add capacity (assuming at least 2 pair for t-1).  The 
repeaters fit in a standard 248 closure.

From: NANOG  on behalf of Baldur Norddahl 

Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:19:21 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair

Rent a cable plow and make a quick run of fiber during the night. Nobody will 
notice.

:-)

6 miles is too far to get any speed on a phone line.

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Baldur Norddahl]

Rent a cable plow and make a quick run of fiber during the night. Nobody
will notice.

:-)

6 miles is too far to get any speed on a phone line.

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Mel Beckman]

I’ve used the Patton copper link devices such as the one you mentioned Nick, 
and they work very well within the parameters they cover. Their tech-support is 
excellent also.

 -mel beckman

On Dec 12, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Josh Luthman 
mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:

Something LRE possibly.  Could just do VDSL.

Are you just looking at more than 1544 kbps or is there a particular threshold 
you need to meet (to support a camera, etc)?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 4:26 PM Nick Bogle 
mailto:n...@bogle.se>> wrote:
A quick question for you guys;

If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a 
remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are 
just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. 
Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve 
so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a 
geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking 
there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher 
bandwidth capacity.

Any suggestions?

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Shawn L via NANOG]

Actellis also makes some ethernet over dry pair gear.  The only issue is that 
they require repeaters like a T1 (different spacing though).  I'm guessing if 
you're doing T1 at that distance you already have repeater housings in the 
field at least.
 
 


-Original Message-
From: "Alfie Pates" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:42pm
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair



Six miles is probably pushing it, but Proscend make some interesting Long-Range 
Ethernet SFP transciever which are VDSL based. They're horrendously documented 
and they draw *way* more power than the SFP specification allows.
They also make a version which is design to terminate VDSL broadband circuits - 
A couple of those found their way to my desk recently and it turns out that 
despite the horrendous documentation and sightly scary heat output (they come 
with a little paper note in the box which says something along the lines of 
"WARNING! MODULE GETS HOT - DO NOT TOUCH DURING OPERATION."), they do generally 
Just Work!
~a
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018, at 9:25 PM, Nick Bogle wrote:
A quick question for you guys; 
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a 
remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are 
just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. 
Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve 
so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a 
geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking 
there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher 
bandwidth capacity. 
Any suggestions?

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[William Herrin]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 1:25 PM Nick Bogle  wrote:
> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones)
> to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use?
> We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps
> isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally
> protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure
> (fiber etc)

Also, if there's power and dry pair copper to the site then there are
utility poles to the site that are grandfathered under whatever the
current regulations are. Since poles rot and trees take down wires
there must also be provisions for maintaining them. A good lawyer can
probably figure out how you can add a cable to those existing poles
without running afoul of the regs, particularly since its in service
to a research site.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Dirtside Systems . Web: 

RE: Extending network over a dry pair

[Chris Kimball]

HA! But the question is; does it pass?

^^^ and that was my official 'first post' beware my linked in requests now

-Original Message-
From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Phillip Carroll
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:53 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: RE: Extending network over a dry pair

Whenever I have a dry pair I use fluke lube.

-Original Message-
From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Blake Hudson
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 3:40 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair



Nick Bogle wrote on 12/12/2018 3:25 PM:
> A quick question for you guys;
>
> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for
> phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you
> use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but
> 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site
> on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new
> infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where
> point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some
> sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher
> bandwidth capacity.
>
> Any suggestions?

Blackbox makes a variety of different types of " network extenders" (aka
bridges) -
https://www.blackbox.com/en-us/products/black-box-brand-products/networking/extenders

As others have said, 6 miles might limit your bandwidth capacity.
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Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[William Herrin]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 1:25 PM Nick Bogle  wrote:
> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones)
> to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use?
> We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps
> isn't cutting it anymore.

Hi Nick,

Where are the repeaters? Even using HDSL or VDSL, 1.5mbps T1s don't
generally extend 30,000 feet without repeaters.

Depending on how far apart the repeaters are and whether you can
substitute other equipment, you may have lots of options or none at
all.

Also, tell us more about the terrain. Just because you don't think
it's suitable for ptp wireless doesn't necessarily mean that wireless
can't usefully play a role in a hybrid solution.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Grant Taylor via NANOG]

On 12/12/2018 02:40 PM, Blake Hudson wrote:

As others have said, 6 miles might limit your bandwidth capacity.


Are there other places along the path that you could split break the 6 
miles into multiple shorter links and regenerate the signal?




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

RE: Extending network over a dry pair

[Phillip Carroll]

Whenever I have a dry pair I use fluke lube. 

-Original Message-
From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Blake Hudson
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 3:40 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair



Nick Bogle wrote on 12/12/2018 3:25 PM:
> A quick question for you guys;
>
> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for
> phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you 
> use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 
> 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site 
> on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new 
> infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where 
> point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some 
> sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher 
> bandwidth capacity.
>
> Any suggestions?

Blackbox makes a variety of different types of " network extenders" (aka
bridges) -
https://www.blackbox.com/en-us/products/black-box-brand-products/networking/extenders

As others have said, 6 miles might limit your bandwidth capacity.

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Alfie Pates]

Six miles is probably pushing it, but Proscend make some interesting Long-
Range Ethernet SFP transciever which are VDSL based. They're
horrendously documented and they draw *way* more power than the SFP
specification allows.
They also make a version which is design to terminate VDSL broadband
circuits - A couple of those found their way to my desk recently and it
turns out that despite the horrendous documentation and sightly scary
heat output (they come with a little paper note in the box which says
something along the lines of "WARNING! MODULE GETS HOT - DO NOT TOUCH
DURING OPERATION."), they do generally Just Work!
~a

On Wed, Dec 12, 2018, at 9:25 PM, Nick Bogle wrote:
> A quick question for you guys; 
> 
> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for
> phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you
> use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but
> 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site
> on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new
> infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where
> point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some
> sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher
> bandwidth capacity.> 
> Any suggestions?

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Blake Hudson]

Nick Bogle wrote on 12/12/2018 3:25 PM:

A quick question for you guys;

If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for 
phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you 
use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 
1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site 
on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new 
infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where 
point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some 
sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher 
bandwidth capacity.


Any suggestions?


Blackbox makes a variety of different types of " network extenders" (aka 
bridges) - 
https://www.blackbox.com/en-us/products/black-box-brand-products/networking/extenders


As others have said, 6 miles might limit your bandwidth capacity.

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Josh Luthman]

Something LRE possibly.  Could just do VDSL.

Are you just looking at more than 1544 kbps or is there a particular
threshold you need to meet (to support a camera, etc)?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 4:26 PM Nick Bogle  wrote:

> A quick question for you guys;
>
> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones)
> to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We
> currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't
> cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally
> protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber
> etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is
> practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that
> uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
>
> Any suggestions?
>

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Jeremy Austin]

For a comparison of distance to capacity on copper, see
http://www.impulse-corp.co.uk/knowledge-base/transmission-distance-and-speed-differences-between-shdsl-and-vdsl2.htm

You might be able to pair bond -- if you had more than one pair.

If wireless isn't possible, you're likely needing satellite.

On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 12:35 PM Andrew Latham  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 3:27 PM Nick Bogle  wrote:
>
>> A quick question for you guys;
>>
>> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones)
>> to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We
>> currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't
>> cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally
>> protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber
>> etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is
>> practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that
>> uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>>
>
> Look for an SHDSL Ethernet Extender
>
> --
> - Andrew "lathama" Latham -
>


-- 
Jeremy Austin
jhaus...@gmail.com

(907) 895-2311 office
(907) 803-5422 cell

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Ray Van Dolson]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 01:25:32PM -0800, Nick Bogle wrote:
> A quick question for you guys; 
> 
> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for
> phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you
> use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but
> 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore.  Unfortunately it's a research site
> on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new
> infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where
> point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some
> sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher
> bandwidth capacity. 
> 
> Any suggestions?

There's this[1], but only rated at one mile.

This one[2] claims it can support 15.3Mbps over a single pair.

Ray

[1] 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Tupavco-2DEthernet-2DExtender-2DKit-2DRepeater-2DVDSL_dp_B01BOD8C9W_ref-3Dpd-5Fcp-5F147-5F2-3Fpd-5Frd-5Fw-3DjJF6B-26pf-5Frd-5Fp-3Def4dc990-2Da9ca-2D4945-2Dae0b-2Df8d549198ed6-26pf-5Frd-5Fr-3DYNZSNN4KVFDD0D7F28BC-26pd-5Frd-5Fr-3Dff2a9a7f-2Dfe54-2D11e8-2D9eb5-2Dcbf5e1b9be77-26pd-5Frd-5Fwg-3DYAFyN-26pd-5Frd-5Fi-3DB01BOD8C9W-26psc-3D1-26refRID-3DYNZSNN4KVFDD0D7F28BC=DwIBAg=n6-cguzQvX_tUIrZOS_4Og=r4NBNYp4yEcJxC11Po5I-w=TbF7NHyAPYAnOTcN0mP5L8Mx9bruJ3BQiMGiRuuEjag=1uB8i1QuuStq_4H-v8E2AvAuFwvzubQ5sfUHK81L598=
[2] 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.patton.com_ethernet-2Dextender_cl1314mde_=DwIBAg=n6-cguzQvX_tUIrZOS_4Og=r4NBNYp4yEcJxC11Po5I-w=TbF7NHyAPYAnOTcN0mP5L8Mx9bruJ3BQiMGiRuuEjag=giCSQ1Y-mYPf-JQmTFLfqlg34eDZuCD87ScHf0sOR20=

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Andrew Latham]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 3:27 PM Nick Bogle  wrote:

> A quick question for you guys;
>
> If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones)
> to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We
> currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't
> cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally
> protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber
> etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is
> practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that
> uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
>
> Any suggestions?
>

Look for an SHDSL Ethernet Extender

-- 
- Andrew "lathama" Latham -