Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Burroughs DC105 Nixie Tube Counting Module

[Bill Notfaded]

This interested me enough that I researched it as well... Pretty cool actually 
how it worked and it sure didn't look cheap even by standards back then!

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Burroughs DC105 Nixie Tube Counting Module

[Shaun Merrigan]

Thank you to everyone who posted information and/links. 

Shaun M

Sent from my iPad6

No Regret


> On May 1, 2019, at 07:40, Richard Katezansky  wrote:
> 
> I have a DC-106 that I was able to get up and running 5-6 years ago using 
> some information that I scraped from the web at the time.  Doing a search for 
> some of that information turned up this which I never saw before but 
> interestingly it seems to have a schematic near the bottom of the page.
> 
> http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electronics-world/readouts-counter-tubes-electronics-world-october-1959.htm
> 
> I'll post the data I did find in the past to the files section.
> 
> BTW one of the annoying issues was finding a suitable edge connector to mate 
> to the module.  The DC-106 edge is a non standard .093 thick.
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tuesday, 30 April 2019 22:31:10 UTC-4, Shaun Merrigan wrote:
>> Uniservo (on Youtube) is looking for information and data on the Burroughs 
>> DC105 Nixie Tube Counting Module. Perhaps someone on the list can help him 
>> out?  In any case, he has posted a short video about the modules here which 
>> is interesting to watch:
>> https://youtu.be/qJkhvCi4qDk
>> 
>> Shaun M
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad6
>> 
>> No Regret
>> 
> 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[David Pye]

I agree.

I can't help thinking that for a first clock a 9/12vdc powered design using
a known HV module seems to offer the safest option for people without line
voltage experience.

David

On Thu, 2 May 2019, 22:01 gregebert,  wrote:

> I dont recommend line-operated designs unless you've done some previous
> design work at  high-ish voltages. There are a lot of not-obvious things
> that go wrong (line noise, transients, component failure, inadequate
> isolation) with very bad consequences.
>
> If you have done a lot of past designs, I can share some tips on how to
> make a line-operated design safer and more reliable. The last thing we want
> is for someone's nixie clock to cause a fire, or worse.
>
> I've had a few "learning experiences" with line-operated circuits that
> ended-up with sparks, smoke, and/or small explosions despite careful
> forethought. There's always something you overlook, and sooner or later it
> will get you.
>
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[neonixie-l] Re: Suggestions for a LiPo powered nixie power supply design?

[gregebert]

I meant to say "humiliating"

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[neonixie-l] Re: Suggestions for a LiPo powered nixie power supply design?

[gregebert]

I've done a fair amount of work with flyback converters, or minor variants. 
The other circuit looks like some kind of self-oscillating topology, and I 
have not done anything with those other than build a Radio Shack kit with 
one back in the early 1970's.

I really wish manufacturers would provide decent SPICE models for their 
transformers; I'm cursed with simulating these designs for weeks or months, 
only to find out they behave so much differently on the bench under load. 
It's humbling to experience how a converter works so well with no load, 
only to see it fall to pieces when you put it to work.

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[gregebert]

I dont recommend line-operated designs unless you've done some previous 
design work at  high-ish voltages. There are a lot of not-obvious things 
that go wrong (line noise, transients, component failure, inadequate 
isolation) with very bad consequences.

If you have done a lot of past designs, I can share some tips on how to 
make a line-operated design safer and more reliable. The last thing we want 
is for someone's nixie clock to cause a fire, or worse.

I've had a few "learning experiences" with line-operated circuits that 
ended-up with sparks, smoke, and/or small explosions despite careful 
forethought. There's always something you overlook, and sooner or later it 
will get you.

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Paul Andrews]

Interesting. What about a ceramic capacitor? For example, there is this 
400V AC X2 

 
cap on digikey, though quite large at almost 25mm diameter.

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 2:06:25 PM UTC-4, Dekatron42 wrote:
>
> One thing about the type of power supply that relies on a capacitor in the 
> manner that the clock design in the link from www.dos4ever.com is that 
> the capacitor will degrade over time for every voltage spike on the mains, 
> this is as designed by the capacitor manufacturers but it also means that 
> the capacitance will become lower over time as the self-healing properties 
> are not 100% so the voltage you get from this power supply will get lower 
> over time. There was a big problem with this a few years ago as the 
> capacitors that were manufactured over a time degraded faster than designed 
> so many home appliances went dead long before they were intended to (I 
> worked with smart electricity meters that were also affected by this 
> problem and it took a long time to find out that it was these capacitors 
> that were the problem). Finally they found out that there were 
> manufacturing problems of these polypropylene capacitors that meant that 
> they degraded faster than designed. The costs for repairing the electricity 
> meters were in part covered by the capacitor manufacturers but I guess that 
> it was a loss to everyone in the end. So you should count on the capacitor 
> giving up at some point, but modern capacitors nowadays take some of this 
> into account as the manufacturers realized that they had to change the 
> manufacturing process to make better and more reliable capacitors (but 
> since cost has always been the driving point for these types of components 
> they might not be so much better anyway).
>
> Do some googling on for instance "smart meter capacitive power supply 
> problems" and you'll see some discussions and documents on this.
>
> Choose a specially designed capacitor for this use and your power supply 
> will live a lot longer and don't just put any capacitor in there!
>
> /Martin
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Suggestions for a LiPo powered nixie power supply design?

[Tomasz Kowalczyk]

W dniu czwartek, 2 maja 2019 20:54:25 UTC+2 użytkownik gregebert napisał:
>
> Sounds like your transformer is saturating; common problem with small 
> magnetics.
>
> I used an LPR6235-123 from Coilcraft in my wristwatch. They sell to 
> end-users in small quantities, which is nice.
> Even though it only ran for 7 seconds at a time, it still overheated at 
> 7mA load but it's a possible option for you at 2mA.
>

Hmm, datasheet of this transformer shows a pretty funky step up circuit. 
Does anyone have a link to description of this circuit, or just name of it?
https://www.coilcraft.com/pdfs/lpr6235.pdf


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[neonixie-l] Re: Suggestions for a LiPo powered nixie power supply design?

[Paul Andrews]

FYI: This was 
the transformer I was using. The saturation current is 0.7A.

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 2:54:25 PM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>
> Sounds like your transformer is saturating; common problem with small 
> magnetics.
>
> I used an LPR6235-123 from Coilcraft in my wristwatch. They sell to 
> end-users in small quantities, which is nice.
> Even though it only ran for 7 seconds at a time, it still overheated at 
> 7mA load but it's a possible option for you at 2mA.
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Suggestions for a LiPo powered nixie power supply design?

[SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.]

One Idea whould be trying to use the LT8580, there is an appnote about 
using it as a VFD Tube supply. Sure, you would need a second dcdc to reach 
9V, but those are super tiny nowadays. Could possibly fit on a 17mm board

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Suggestions for a LiPo powered nixie power supply design?

[David Forbes]

I could send you a bunch of the 31105 transformer that I use in my Nixie
watch with the LT1308B.
They are available from Wurth in large quantity, but no longer a stocked
item.

On Thu, May 2, 2019, 11:54 AM gregebert  wrote:

> Sounds like your transformer is saturating; common problem with small
> magnetics.
>
> I used an LPR6235-123 from Coilcraft in my wristwatch. They sell to
> end-users in small quantities, which is nice.
> Even though it only ran for 7 seconds at a time, it still overheated at
> 7mA load but it's a possible option for you at 2mA.
>
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[neonixie-l] Re: Suggestions for a LiPo powered nixie power supply design?

[gregebert]

Sounds like your transformer is saturating; common problem with small 
magnetics.

I used an LPR6235-123 from Coilcraft in my wristwatch. They sell to 
end-users in small quantities, which is nice.
Even though it only ran for 7 seconds at a time, it still overheated at 7mA 
load but it's a possible option for you at 2mA.

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Dekatron42]

One thing about the type of power supply that relies on a capacitor in the 
manner that the clock design in the link from www.dos4ever.com is that the 
capacitor will degrade over time for every voltage spike on the mains, this 
is as designed by the capacitor manufacturers but it also means that the 
capacitance will become lower over time as the self-healing properties are 
not 100% so the voltage you get from this power supply will get lower over 
time. There was a big problem with this a few years ago as the capacitors 
that were manufactured over a time degraded faster than designed so many 
home appliances went dead long before they were intended to (I worked with 
smart electricity meters that were also affected by this problem and it 
took a long time to find out that it was these capacitors that were the 
problem). Finally they found out that there were manufacturing problems of 
these polypropylene capacitors that meant that they degraded faster than 
designed. The costs for repairing the electricity meters were in part 
covered by the capacitor manufacturers but I guess that it was a loss to 
everyone in the end. So you should count on the capacitor giving up at some 
point, but modern capacitors nowadays take some of this into account as the 
manufacturers realized that they had to change the manufacturing process to 
make better and more reliable capacitors (but since cost has always been 
the driving point for these types of components they might not be so much 
better anyway).

Do some googling on for instance "smart meter capacitive power supply 
problems" and you'll see some discussions and documents on this.

Choose a specially designed capacitor for this use and your power supply 
will live a lot longer and don't just put any capacitor in there!

/Martin

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[neonixie-l] Suggestions for a LiPo powered nixie power supply design?

[Paul Andrews]

One project I have on the back burner is a very small battery-powered nixie 
display. I thought that a variation of a power supply design that I had 
been using for everything else, would work fine. It turns out that the 
prototype of the power supply, which I had built a few years back, only 
worked because of a dry solder-joint somewhere on the mosfet (yes, I'm 
serious). The version I built specifically for this project quickly had 
everything overheating. When I went back and touched up the soldering on 
the prototype, it showed the same behavior. The culprit, BTW is pretty much 
down to the tiny 1:20 transformer. I have built variations of this design 
with bigger transformers that work very well.

There are a lot of variations of power supply design that I could mess with 
- obviously I have already scoured the internet on this topic - but that is 
the trouble. This project will never get finished if I have to run through 
multiple prototypes trying to find one that is small enough and that works. 
So I was wondering if anyone could just say 'use this design'.

The constraints are:

   1. It has to fit on a circular PCB the same diameter as the tube or less 
   (about 17mm).
   2. It has to provide around 150V-160V regulated output, or maybe just 
   'limited' output.
   3. It only has to provide 1.5mA to 2mA.
   4. It has to use a LiPo as the power source, so it should work at 
   voltages between around 3.5V and 4.5V.
   5. It has to use parts I can get from digikey (so no sourcing 
   transformers from old cameras that I can't find for example).

Surface mount components are fine...

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Paul Andrews]

I had seen that article before, but its significance to several of my 
interests hadn't really sunk in. Recently I have become more and more 
obsessed with power supplies and time bases. My father-in-law was an 
accomplished engineer. After retirement he sold various electronic gadgets, 
one of which was a small mains-powered photographic timer. I was amazed 
when he showed me inside one to see no chips and no transformer. So when I 
my interest in this stuff started, I was intrigued that I couldn't find any 
power supplies like the one he had used. Yet here it is. Furthermore, the 
guy is using the mains frequency as a time-base, something I am very 
interested in doing, since my current project is also mains-powered.

His article is very thorough, and this just got added to my to-do list of 
future projects, which is ever-increasing. I also want to use Osmond to 
design some simple PCBs on the Mac - I am interested in producing PCBs that 
are themselves a work of art (as far as I can make them), and I think this 
would be a great project for that. The more interesting things I can 
squeeze into one project, the more likely I am to work on it.

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 11:37:54 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> That is a one tube clock. You don't need to switch the anode.
>
> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>>
>> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being that 
>> you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with savings, 
>> there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current higher for 
>> multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
>> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
>> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
>> use multiplexing.
>>
>> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is a 
>> secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable nixie 
>> tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch the 
>> anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators which 
>> is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>>
>> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
>> about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
>> refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
>> results.
>>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Paul Andrews]

That is a one tube clock. You don't need to switch the anode.

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>
> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being that 
> you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with savings, 
> there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current higher for 
> multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
> use multiplexing.
>
> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is a 
> secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable nixie 
> tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch the 
> anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators which 
> is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>
> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
> about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
> refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
> results.
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[gregebert]

Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being that 
you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with savings, 
there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current higher for 
multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
use multiplexing.

I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is a 
secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable nixie 
tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch the 
anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators which 
is basically a switch that is not fully-on.

Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
results.

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[neonixie-l] First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

I want to build a nixie clock similar to this one:
https://www.dos4ever.com/TiT/TiT.html

I will supply HV to the anode of each tube (through a current-limiting 
resistor), and switch the cathodes using BJTs. The BJT's bases will be 
connected to a microcontroller's output through resistors.

I have read a few people online saying that in order to prevent ghosting, 
you must "blank" (turn all cathodes off) the tube when you change digits. 
This would be fine, except the same folks say you should never blank the 
tubes by turning all the cathodes off; instead, you have to turn off the 
anode. I don't really want to add a switch for the anode. Is this really 
necessary?

Also, can I just switch my digit transistors on and leave them on, or do I 
need to pulse them?

Thank you!

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