Re: [netmod] New Version Notification for draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt

[Kent Watsen]

Hi Balazs,

I'm unclear about the scope of the problem.  Is it limited to server 
capabilities?It seems that the idea is to move from having a stateful 
connection to a live server to having a way to pass the equivalent state even 
when not connected to the server.

Related, but probably not what you're angling for, I've been having issues with 
validating RESTCONF examples.  The issue is that the RESTCONF documents are 
context specific.  For instance, GET /widgets/ returns a document that might 
have an outermost element called "widgets", whereas GET /widgets/widget=foo 
returns a document that might have an outermost element called "widget".   In 
order to validate the second document, my code first wraps the "widget" element 
with a "widgets" element, and then the validation tools work.

Perhaps a more generalized instance data mechanism could include where in the 
tree the data is situated?   For example, it would be helpful if an action's 
instance data could provide more context (e.g., the input/output documents 
could indicate the name of the action, the object that the action was invoked 
on, etc.).

Generally, there is some state being held by the protocols that complicates 
examining instance data outside of the protocol, as extra bits of state need to 
be passed around separately.  It would be nice if the documents were (or at 
least could be) more self-contained.

Kent // contributor


On 2/8/18, 4:17 AM, "netmod on behalf of Balazs Lengyel" 
 on behalf of 
balazs.leng...@ericsson.com> wrote:


Hello,

With Benoit I prepared a draft about how to document and use YANG defined 
instance data. It could be useful for documenting  server capabilities or 
preloading data defined in implementation time and probably for other purposes 
as well.

regards Balazs

 Forwarded Message 
Subject:

New Version Notification for draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt

Date:

Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:28:50 -0800

From:

internet-dra...@ietf.org

To:

Benoit Claise , Balazs Lengyel 




A new version of I-D, draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt

has been successfully submitted by Balazs Lengyel and posted to the

IETF repository.



Name:  draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data

Revision:  00

Title: YANG Instance Data Files and their use for Documenting Server 
Capabilities

Document date: 2018-02-06

Group: Individual Submission

Pages: 10

URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt

Status: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data/

Htmlized:   
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00

Htmlized:   
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00





Abstract:

   This document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance

   data, that is data that could be stored in a datastore and whose

   syntax and semantics is defined by YANG models.  Instance data files

   can be used to provide information that is defined in design time.

   There is a need to document Server capabilities (which are often

   specified in design time), which should be done using instance data

   files.









Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission

until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.



The IETF Secretariat



--

Balazs Lengyel

Re: [netmod] New Version Notification for draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt

[Juergen Schoenwaelder]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:14:11PM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:
> 
> BALAZS:  Sorry but where is the guessing?

If there is no config false instance, how do I decide?

> The YANG model explicitly states whether data is config=false or true.
> For config=true data it is always the running datastore
> For config=false data it only depends on the NMDA support. E.g. the yanglib
> model will be used on new and old servers too.
> Also it is an explicit aim of the draft that we should allow mixing of
> config=true and config=false data in the same instance data set.
> 
> Would you prefer that I add as metadata "ida:config-datastore=XXX" ? Here
> XXX could be running or some dynamic (e.g. SDN) with default being running.
> Or do you see any use case for documenting/loading candidate, startup,
> intended or operational data for config=true ? If so please describe.
> 
> Config=false data it will always go into operational or "other" in case of a
> preNMDA server; so I don't see a need for any extra selector here.

I see a use case of having examples in documents (which likely are not
even complete) and I think tools prefer to know upfront which
datastore the example belongs to without first doing complex
processing.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder   Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 

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Re: [netmod] New Version Notification for draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt

[Balazs Lengyel]

On 2/12/2018 11:47 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:49:48AM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:

Hello Jurgen,

IMHO once we know whether the data is config=false or true and know the
datastores the server supports the datastore the instance data is relevant
to is fixed. One exception is the possible loading of dynamic datastores.
However as I do not have a use-case for these and we do not have any
dynamic datastores defined, IMHO we can leave the usage of these
datastores out of scope. If I added the following paragraphs would that
help?

"If the instance data specifies config false (state data) and the server
support the operational datastore, the instance data documents the
operational datastore. If  the operational datastore is not supported the
data documents additional state data that is stored outside the
configuration datastores. The instance data MAY be used to load the
relevant datastore or it MAY just be used to document its content.

Having to guess the datastore from the instance data feels wrong to
me. It is not robust.


If the instance data specifies config true (configuration data)  the
instance data documents the running datastore.  The instance data MAY be
used to load the running  datastore or it MAY just be used to document its
content. While the instance data format MAY be used to load other e.g.
dynamic datastores that is out of scope for this specification."

Also further clarification may be provided for each use-case in the
relevant document.

Why not make the data format robust? What speaks against indicating
explicitly to which datastore data belongs?

/js

BALAZS:  Sorry but where is the guessing?
The YANG model explicitly states whether data is config=false or true.
For config=true data it is always the running datastore
For config=false data it only depends on the NMDA support. E.g. the 
yanglib model will be used on new and old servers too.
Also it is an explicit aim of the draft that we should allow mixing of 
config=true and config=false data in the same instance data set.


Would you prefer that I add as metadata "ida:config-datastore=XXX" ? 
Here XXX could be running or some dynamic (e.g. SDN) with default being 
running. Or do you see any use case for documenting/loading candidate, 
startup, intended or operational data for config=true ? If so please 
describe.


Config=false data it will always go into operational or "other" in case 
of a preNMDA server; so I don't see a need for any extra selector here.


regards Balazs

--
Balazs Lengyel   Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909  email: balazs.leng...@ericsson.com

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Re: [netmod] New Version Notification for draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt

[Juergen Schoenwaelder]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:49:48AM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:
>Hello Jurgen,
> 
>IMHO once we know whether the data is config=false or true and know the
>datastores the server supports the datastore the instance data is relevant
>to is fixed. One exception is the possible loading of dynamic datastores.
>However as I do not have a use-case for these and we do not have any
>dynamic datastores defined, IMHO we can leave the usage of these
>datastores out of scope. If I added the following paragraphs would that
>help?
> 
>"If the instance data specifies config false (state data) and the server
>support the operational datastore, the instance data documents the
>operational datastore. If  the operational datastore is not supported the
>data documents additional state data that is stored outside the
>configuration datastores. The instance data MAY be used to load the
>relevant datastore or it MAY just be used to document its content.

Having to guess the datastore from the instance data feels wrong to
me. It is not robust.

>If the instance data specifies config true (configuration data)  the
>instance data documents the running datastore.  The instance data MAY be
>used to load the running  datastore or it MAY just be used to document its
>content. While the instance data format MAY be used to load other e.g.
>dynamic datastores that is out of scope for this specification."
> 
>Also further clarification may be provided for each use-case in the
>relevant document.

Why not make the data format robust? What speaks against indicating
explicitly to which datastore data belongs?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder   Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 

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Re: [netmod] New Version Notification for draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt

[Balazs Lengyel]

  
  
Hello Jurgen,
IMHO once we know whether the data is config=false or true and
  know the datastores the server supports the datastore the instance
  data is relevant to is fixed. One exception is the possible
  loading of dynamic datastores. However as I do not have a use-case
  for these and we do not have any dynamic datastores defined, IMHO
  we can leave the usage of these datastores out of scope. If I
  added the following paragraphs would that help?
"If the instance data specifies config false (state data) and
the server support the operational datastore, the instance data
documents the operational datastore. If  the operational
datastore is not supported the data documents additional state
data that is stored outside the configuration datastores. The
instance data MAY be used to load the relevant datastore or it
MAY just be used to document its content.
 If the instance data specifies config true
(configuration data)  the instance data documents the running
datastore.  The instance data MAY be used to load the running 
datastore or it MAY just be used to document its content. While
the instance data format MAY be used to load other e.g. dynamic
datastores that is out of scope for this specification."
Also further clarification may be provided for each use-case
in the relevant document. 

regards Balazs

On 2/9/2018 5:25 PM, Juergen
  Schoenwaelder wrote:


  How do I know which datastore the data belongs to? Would it not make
sense to carry that information inline? If we do not carry this
information inline, how is that information supposed to be provided
if for example this format is used to validate examples included in
documentation?

/js

On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 04:07:11PM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:

  
Hello Jurgen,

I will gladly add NMDA to the draft. However could you please be more
specific. Which part of NMDA are you missing?
Is it the example of yanglib that you would like updated?

As the instance-data can be used to document and/or load    both config=true
and false data it is IMHO relevant to the candidate/running/operational
datastores. However whether it should be used to just document data or also
to load data, and how exactly such a load should be implemented  is out of
scope. And yes using one SW kit config=false data can be loaded from file
too.

regards Balazs


On 2/8/2018 10:24 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:


  [Removing NETCONF since the I-D says -netmod-.]

I flipped through the I-D yesterday and I think a common format for
instance data trees should be NMDA aware these days.

/js

On Thu, Feb 08, 2018 at 10:17:25AM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:

  
Hello,

With Benoit I prepared a draft about how to document and use YANG defined
instance data. It could be useful for documenting  server capabilities or
preloading data defined in implementation time and probably for other
purposes as well.

regards Balazs

 Forwarded Message 

Subject: New Version Notification for
 draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
   Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:28:50 -0800
   From: [1]internet-dra...@ietf.org
 To: Benoit Claise [2], Balazs Lengyel
 [3]

  A new version of I-D, draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
  has been successfully submitted by Balazs Lengyel and posted to the
  IETF repository.

  Name:   draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data
  Revision:   00
  Title:  YANG Instance Data Files and their use for Documenting Server Capabilities
  Document date:  2018-02-06
  Group:  Individual Submission
  Pages:  10
  URL:[4]https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
  Status: [5]https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data/
  Htmlized:   [6]https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00
  Htmlized:   [7]https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00


  Abstract:
 This document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance
 data, that is data that could be stored in a datastore and whose
 syntax and semantics is defined by YANG models.  Instance data files
 can be used to provide information that is defined in design time.
 There is a need to document Server capabilities (which are often
 specified in design time), which should be done using instance data
 files.




  Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
  until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

  The IETF Secretariat


  --
  Balazs Lengyel   Ericsson Hungary 

Re: [netmod] New Version Notification for draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt

[Juergen Schoenwaelder]

How do I know which datastore the data belongs to? Would it not make
sense to carry that information inline? If we do not carry this
information inline, how is that information supposed to be provided
if for example this format is used to validate examples included in
documentation?

/js

On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 04:07:11PM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:
> Hello Jurgen,
> 
> I will gladly add NMDA to the draft. However could you please be more
> specific. Which part of NMDA are you missing?
> Is it the example of yanglib that you would like updated?
> 
> As the instance-data can be used to document and/or load    both config=true
> and false data it is IMHO relevant to the candidate/running/operational
> datastores. However whether it should be used to just document data or also
> to load data, and how exactly such a load should be implemented  is out of
> scope. And yes using one SW kit config=false data can be loaded from file
> too.
> 
> regards Balazs
> 
> 
> On 2/8/2018 10:24 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> > [Removing NETCONF since the I-D says -netmod-.]
> > 
> > I flipped through the I-D yesterday and I think a common format for
> > instance data trees should be NMDA aware these days.
> > 
> > /js
> > 
> > On Thu, Feb 08, 2018 at 10:17:25AM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > With Benoit I prepared a draft about how to document and use YANG 
> > > defined
> > > instance data. It could be useful for documenting  server 
> > > capabilities or
> > > preloading data defined in implementation time and probably for other
> > > purposes as well.
> > > 
> > > regards Balazs
> > > 
> > >  Forwarded Message 
> > > 
> > > Subject: New Version Notification for
> > >  draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
> > >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:28:50 -0800
> > >From: [1]internet-dra...@ietf.org
> > >  To: Benoit Claise [2], Balazs Lengyel
> > >  [3]
> > > 
> > >   A new version of I-D, draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
> > >   has been successfully submitted by Balazs Lengyel and posted to the
> > >   IETF repository.
> > > 
> > >   Name:   draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data
> > >   Revision:   00
> > >   Title:  YANG Instance Data Files and their use for Documenting 
> > > Server Capabilities
> > >   Document date:  2018-02-06
> > >   Group:  Individual Submission
> > >   Pages:  10
> > >   URL:
> > > [4]https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
> > >   Status: 
> > > [5]https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data/
> > >   Htmlized:   
> > > [6]https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00
> > >   Htmlized:   
> > > [7]https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   Abstract:
> > >  This document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance
> > >  data, that is data that could be stored in a datastore and whose
> > >  syntax and semantics is defined by YANG models.  Instance data files
> > >  can be used to provide information that is defined in design time.
> > >  There is a need to document Server capabilities (which are often
> > >  specified in design time), which should be done using instance data
> > >  files.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of 
> > > submission
> > >   until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> > > 
> > >   The IETF Secretariat
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   --
> > >   Balazs Lengyel   Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
> > >   Senior Specialist
> > >   Mobile: +36-70-330-7909  email: 
> > > [8]balazs.leng...@ericsson.com
> > > 
> > > References
> > > 
> > > Visible links
> > > 1. mailto:internet-dra...@ietf.org
> > > 2. mailto:bcla...@cisco.com
> > > 3. mailto:balazs.leng...@ericsson.com
> > > 4. 
> > > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
> > > 5. 
> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data/
> > > 6. 
> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00
> > > 7. 
> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00
> > > 8. mailto:balazs.leng...@ericsson.com
> > > ___
> > > netmod mailing list
> > > netmod@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Balazs Lengyel   Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
> Senior Specialist
> Mobile: +36-70-330-7909  email: balazs.leng...@ericsson.com
> 
> ___
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> 

Re: [netmod] New Version Notification for draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt

[Balazs Lengyel]

Hello Jurgen,

I will gladly add NMDA to the draft. However could you please be more 
specific. Which part of NMDA are you missing?

Is it the example of yanglib that you would like updated?

As the instance-data can be used to document and/or load    both 
config=true and false data it is IMHO relevant to the 
candidate/running/operational datastores. However whether it should be 
used to just document data or also to load data, and how exactly such a 
load should be implemented  is out of scope. And yes using one SW kit 
config=false data can be loaded from file too.


regards Balazs


On 2/8/2018 10:24 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:

[Removing NETCONF since the I-D says -netmod-.]

I flipped through the I-D yesterday and I think a common format for
instance data trees should be NMDA aware these days.

/js

On Thu, Feb 08, 2018 at 10:17:25AM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:

Hello,

With Benoit I prepared a draft about how to document and use YANG defined
instance data. It could be useful for documenting  server capabilities or
preloading data defined in implementation time and probably for other
purposes as well.

regards Balazs

 Forwarded Message 

Subject: New Version Notification for
 draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
   Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:28:50 -0800
   From: [1]internet-dra...@ietf.org
 To: Benoit Claise [2], Balazs Lengyel
 [3]

  A new version of I-D, draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
  has been successfully submitted by Balazs Lengyel and posted to the
  IETF repository.

  Name:   draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data
  Revision:   00
  Title:  YANG Instance Data Files and their use for Documenting Server 
Capabilities
  Document date:  2018-02-06
  Group:  Individual Submission
  Pages:  10
  URL:
[4]https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
  Status: 
[5]https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data/
  Htmlized:   
[6]https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00
  Htmlized:   
[7]https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00


  Abstract:
 This document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance
 data, that is data that could be stored in a datastore and whose
 syntax and semantics is defined by YANG models.  Instance data files
 can be used to provide information that is defined in design time.
 There is a need to document Server capabilities (which are often
 specified in design time), which should be done using instance data
 files.




  Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
  until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

  The IETF Secretariat


  --
  Balazs Lengyel   Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
  Senior Specialist
  Mobile: +36-70-330-7909  email: [8]balazs.leng...@ericsson.com

References

Visible links
1. mailto:internet-dra...@ietf.org
2. mailto:bcla...@cisco.com
3. mailto:balazs.leng...@ericsson.com
4. 
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
5. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data/
6. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00
7. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00
8. mailto:balazs.leng...@ericsson.com
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--
Balazs Lengyel   Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909  email: balazs.leng...@ericsson.com

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Re: [netmod] New Version Notification for draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt

[Juergen Schoenwaelder]

[Removing NETCONF since the I-D says -netmod-.]

I flipped through the I-D yesterday and I think a common format for
instance data trees should be NMDA aware these days.

/js

On Thu, Feb 08, 2018 at 10:17:25AM +0100, Balazs Lengyel wrote:
>Hello,
> 
>With Benoit I prepared a draft about how to document and use YANG defined
>instance data. It could be useful for documenting  server capabilities or
>preloading data defined in implementation time and probably for other
>purposes as well.
> 
>regards Balazs
> 
> Forwarded Message 
> 
>Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
>   Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:28:50 -0800
>   From: [1]internet-dra...@ietf.org
> To: Benoit Claise [2], Balazs Lengyel
> [3]
> 
>  A new version of I-D, draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
>  has been successfully submitted by Balazs Lengyel and posted to the
>  IETF repository.
> 
>  Name:   draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data
>  Revision:   00
>  Title:  YANG Instance Data Files and their use for Documenting 
> Server Capabilities
>  Document date:  2018-02-06
>  Group:  Individual Submission
>  Pages:  10
>  URL:
> [4]https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
>  Status: 
> [5]https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data/
>  Htmlized:   
> [6]https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00
>  Htmlized:   
> [7]https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00
> 
> 
>  Abstract:
> This document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance
> data, that is data that could be stored in a datastore and whose
> syntax and semantics is defined by YANG models.  Instance data files
> can be used to provide information that is defined in design time.
> There is a need to document Server capabilities (which are often
> specified in design time), which should be done using instance data
> files.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
>  until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
>  The IETF Secretariat
> 
> 
>  --
>  Balazs Lengyel   Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
>  Senior Specialist
>  Mobile: +36-70-330-7909  email: [8]balazs.leng...@ericsson.com
> 
> References
> 
>Visible links
>1. mailto:internet-dra...@ietf.org
>2. mailto:bcla...@cisco.com
>3. mailto:balazs.leng...@ericsson.com
>4. 
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00.txt
>5. 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data/
>6. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00
>7. 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lengyel-netmod-yang-instance-data-00
>8. mailto:balazs.leng...@ericsson.com

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> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod


-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder   Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 

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