Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Seriously d.garcia! What a moderators ploy, and all the putti are coming out, shedding angelic little wings of delight about how much we enjoy the lust…im only 25, and rarely post on nettime but do like reading a few cranky masterworks now and again. i got bigger fish to fry…low tech/high concept that is all it is about!!! all that will ever cut through the stickey goo of the last six months to a year…go nettime parlay on… xxxmolly > On Nov 30, 2022, at 7:21 AM, d.gar...@new-tactical-research.co.uk wrote: > > Nothing brings the gently glowing embers of > nettime to life quite like the prospect > of its immanent demise, when the mods launch > one of their cunningly infrequent "shake-em-up" > interventions. > > Whatever the outcome of this latest experiment > the kick-up-the-arse alone makes it worthwhile. > > Thank You Mod-Fathers > > David Garcia > > >> On 2022-11-30 07:31, bernd kasparek wrote: >> Dear nettimers, >> I joined this list some months ago, have never posted but always read >> with great interest and consequential enlightenment. >> I of course fully agree with the argument about technical fixes to >> social problems, but still feel that this is something that should be >> explored more empirically in the context of the usage of this list. >> On the technical points: Yes, mail has become more difficult lately, >> but it is not impossible to run your own server. Furthermore, it is >> possible to run a mailman instance that is in full compliance with >> SPIF, DMARC and DKIM, with the only caveat being the rewriting of the >> from: header (the "... via mailinglistname" you might see on other >> mailing lists). >> But I really wanted to make a different point: I thoroughly enjoy >> nettime as a mailing list, I enjoy the long form mails exceeding 2k >> characters, I enjoy the built-in offline availability my MUA offers >> me, the discoverability, the searchability, the threadedness, etc. I >> am not convinced (but I am open to persuasion) that Mastodon et al. >> offer all that. Fundamentally, I do believe moving to social >> media-esque formats will alter the way we discuss and read each other >> and believe these consequences should be discussed a bit more in-depth >> before making such a move. >> I fully understand that infrastructure maintenance is tedious, boring >> and too often un-gratifying. But maintaining a mastodon instance will >> also be that, once the initial setup is done. The plight of the >> sysadmin is independent from the particular kind of tech she >> maintains. If I can help out there, I'm happy to join the effort. >> best wishes >> Bernd > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission > #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Its a Language thing
It’s a Language Thing In a brilliant article in the FT, last September, Janen Ganesh correctly predicted that as ever the US mid term elections would be obsessively followed by the English political elite when many of the same people would struggle to name a cabinet minister in Berlin or Paris. The EU, Ganesh points out, is a regulatory superpower but our political class is far more interested in Iowa. From the perspective of a UK citizen the impact of this obsession is non-trivial. It is in fact the key to understanding the trouble we are in. The UK's political elite is so engrossed with the US as to confuse it for their own nation. And it has led the nation to act as though they too were a superpower… The question is why? Ganesh insists we do not invoke the usual bogyman of imperial nostalgia (if it were that, France, Spain, the Netherlands and Portugal would show the same hubris.) Instead he suggests we blame the distorting effect of language. Its because the UK’s governing class can follow US politics as easily as their own, they get lost in it. They elide the two countries. What doesn’t help is the freakish fact that Britain’s capital, where its elites live, is as big as any US city, despite the national population being a fifth of America’s. You can see why, from a London angle, the two nations are comparable… Former Prime Minister Mad queen Liz and her Chancellor are not alone in the modern Tory party in their conviction that a bracing dose of deregulation would be enough to unchain Britania releasing US levels of entrepreneurial dynamism. But of course it won't. As Ganesh pointed out "The creator of a successful product in Dallas can expand to LA and Boston with little friction. The UK doesn’t have a market of hundreds of millions of people…" it did once but we voted to leave… David Garcia # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
There's a discontinuity in social media posts, and quite a bit of attention-shifting, so Mastodon might not be the best solution - though migration away from email does make sense. I find that I don't follow email lists well - that might just be me, but I get so many thousands of pieces of email at this point, much of it escapes my attention. I always thought nettime would better fit a platform like the WELL's linear asynchronous conferencing system, and a Discord server could be like that. Mastodon, maybe not, especially to the extent that it's integrated with the larger Fediverse and fed toots from many sources. That's a good substitute for Twitter, I think, but not necessarily a best platform for coherent conversation and focused attention. I've been AWOL from regular nettime participation for years, partly because it's one of many email lists that fall into my various inboxes. I do hope the list will continue as a list until a substitute technology proves to work. ~ Jon L. On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 3:16 PM Petter Ericson wrote: > Hi list, > > Point of order: The fediverse runs on the ActivityPub protocol, which is > specified and standardized in a W3C Recoomendation, which, while not > ideal, and > not covering the server-to-client end of things, still is a good effort, > and at > least as thorough and well-defined as the initial e-mail RFCs. > Standardisation > and avoiding platform lock-in is very important to a lot of people on the > fediverse. > > That being said, having hung around on the fediverse since the _previous_ > standard (OStatus), I agree fully that nettime would in no real way benefit > from moving away from being a mailing list. The mediums are quite > different, > and as you note, there would be a certain amount of friction in moving, > which would necessarily mean people dropping out of the community. Not > ideal. > > Also, I am not sure that you'll necessarily find a hugely different > clientele > on the fediverse compared to people who'd sign up for a mailing list. I'm > in > both categories, obviously, and I would say that the fediverse userbase > skews > elder millennial in general - folks who grew up on the early/pre-platform > internet. I also agree on all the points about solving fundamentally social > problems with technological means. > > Further, my experience from the fediverse is that people are going to post > all > sorts of things to their account, generally, which means that the local > timeline is going to either quickly become relatively unfocused from the > nettime topics, or you're going to have to moderate users comparatively > heavily. You will also miss out on the focused conversations and common > repository of knowledge that can be found in the mailing list archive. > > Alltogether, as a new subscriber to the list and a longtime fediverse > resident, > I'm not a fan. > > All the best, > > /P > -- > Petter Ericson (pett...@accum.se) > @pett...@mastodon.acc.umu.se > > On 30 november, 2022 - Geoffrey Goodell wrote: > > > Dear Doma, Felix, and Ted > > > > I am confused by your recurring argument that the problem with Nettime is > > fundamentally technical in nature, or indeed that there is a problem with > > Nettime at all. Speaking personally, Nettime works well for me. I read > > interesting commentary from people I respect, with the reassurance that > I can > > always add my voice to the symphony. > > > > The fact that I do not post more often is mainly testament to the fact > that I > > am busy with other responsibilities. I am sure that this is true of > others > > here as well. This problem will not suddenly disappear with a shift to a > > different choice of underpinning technology. In fact, it will be > exacerbated, > > because although I run my own e-mail server, the tools for engaging with > the > > so-called 'fediverse' are not part of my workflow. And so, a shift in > > technology will inexorably induce a 'shake out' in which people are > forced to > > either adopt new workflows or face exclusion. I would have thought that > the > > moral foundation of Internet ethics would be incompatible with the use > of force > > in this way. > > > > As far as I know, the argument that 'fediverse' technology, such as that > used > > by Hometown and Mastodon, is superior to e-mail is weak at best and has > never > > been articulated to this group. As far as I know, such technology is in > the > > hands of a handful of software developers and has not been subject to > the same > > rigorous standardisation process of the sort that led to the > establishment of > > e-mail. I suspect that most people on this list did not use e-mail > before > > 1977, by which point RFC 724 was already published [1]. Of course, this > > standard has evolved over the years, in a direction that has benefited > the > > world and is now used by billions of people. As far as I know, there > has not > > yet been a comparable community-based effort to standardise the >
Re: Contents of nettime-l Digest, Vol 182, Issue 17
Hello all This is probably the first nettime email digest I've briefly scanned through since I signed up a year ago. Apologies, I'll get round to catching up on the 181 previous volumes soon. People were reflecting on the retirement home feel of the group, and how moving to a different medium would lose users due to new workflow. Being 23 years old I have little idea what's happening within this magical whirlpool of email sorcery - you might be creating a minor hurdle for new contributors by not having an email alternative. Not necessarily a bad thing - you'll get less emails from confused bystanders like me P.S. I haven't seen many emojis in these threads, are they supported by the mail magician? Best, James https://jhancock532.github.io # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Hello! Just to raise my hand for "mailing list": I prefer emails and mailing lists since I really like the features of email clients. A large white space for writing is just great, and it is good to write without a limited number of characters. As a side remark: If emails are really that outdated, I would actually prefer XMPP. All the best! Christian Swertz # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Hi list, Point of order: The fediverse runs on the ActivityPub protocol, which is specified and standardized in a W3C Recoomendation, which, while not ideal, and not covering the server-to-client end of things, still is a good effort, and at least as thorough and well-defined as the initial e-mail RFCs. Standardisation and avoiding platform lock-in is very important to a lot of people on the fediverse. That being said, having hung around on the fediverse since the _previous_ standard (OStatus), I agree fully that nettime would in no real way benefit from moving away from being a mailing list. The mediums are quite different, and as you note, there would be a certain amount of friction in moving, which would necessarily mean people dropping out of the community. Not ideal. Also, I am not sure that you'll necessarily find a hugely different clientele on the fediverse compared to people who'd sign up for a mailing list. I'm in both categories, obviously, and I would say that the fediverse userbase skews elder millennial in general - folks who grew up on the early/pre-platform internet. I also agree on all the points about solving fundamentally social problems with technological means. Further, my experience from the fediverse is that people are going to post all sorts of things to their account, generally, which means that the local timeline is going to either quickly become relatively unfocused from the nettime topics, or you're going to have to moderate users comparatively heavily. You will also miss out on the focused conversations and common repository of knowledge that can be found in the mailing list archive. Alltogether, as a new subscriber to the list and a longtime fediverse resident, I'm not a fan. All the best, /P -- Petter Ericson (pett...@accum.se) @pett...@mastodon.acc.umu.se On 30 november, 2022 - Geoffrey Goodell wrote: > Dear Doma, Felix, and Ted > > I am confused by your recurring argument that the problem with Nettime is > fundamentally technical in nature, or indeed that there is a problem with > Nettime at all. Speaking personally, Nettime works well for me. I read > interesting commentary from people I respect, with the reassurance that I can > always add my voice to the symphony. > > The fact that I do not post more often is mainly testament to the fact that I > am busy with other responsibilities. I am sure that this is true of others > here as well. This problem will not suddenly disappear with a shift to a > different choice of underpinning technology. In fact, it will be exacerbated, > because although I run my own e-mail server, the tools for engaging with the > so-called 'fediverse' are not part of my workflow. And so, a shift in > technology will inexorably induce a 'shake out' in which people are forced to > either adopt new workflows or face exclusion. I would have thought that the > moral foundation of Internet ethics would be incompatible with the use of > force > in this way. > > As far as I know, the argument that 'fediverse' technology, such as that used > by Hometown and Mastodon, is superior to e-mail is weak at best and has never > been articulated to this group. As far as I know, such technology is in the > hands of a handful of software developers and has not been subject to the same > rigorous standardisation process of the sort that led to the establishment of > e-mail. I suspect that most people on this list did not use e-mail before > 1977, by which point RFC 724 was already published [1]. Of course, this > standard has evolved over the years, in a direction that has benefited the > world and is now used by billions of people. As far as I know, there has not > yet been a comparable community-based effort to standardise the implementation > of 'fediverse' protocols. Here, we have precisely the sort of platform-based > tyranny by fiat that the Internet pioneers laboured to bury forever. > > Finally, I find the argument that new technology can solve a fundamentally > social problem to be absurd and somewhat hypocritical based on the topic of > discussion on this list. While I am not convinced that the so-called > 'fediverse' is a solution looking for a problem, I am also not convinced that > it will make things better for us. > > Perhaps some of the maintainers of the current infrastructure are bored of the > job to which they volunteered, years ago. In that case, they should step > aside > and leave the task of maintaining this list to others. Surely there are > democratic and less-than-democratic ways to achieve this; let's try something. > Perhaps a call for volunteers might be a start. > > But what I can say with certainty is that if you pack up and go somewhere > else, > not everyone will follow you, and even fewer people will follow if you neglect > to provide a solid argument for why. Whether you like it or not, Nettime is > more than a toy project of yours; it provides a valuable service that works. > > Let's stick
Re: Extinction Internet
Am 24/11/22 um 20:20 schrieb Brian Holmes: > "Let’s stopbuilding Web3 solutions for problems that do not existand > launch tools that decolonize, redistribute value,conspire and organize." > > The emergent internet of the 80s and 90s with all its open potentials > was the radical machine that made transnational culture-sharing > possible. Its colonization by globalizing capital was launched with > social media (and so on). Usenet does still exist. A simple solution that works. Maybe not for everybody but maybe still the best of all possible worlds. Best, H. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Dear all, I am grateful for the debate over many years on nettime-l. I also enjoy everything that goes with email as a medium. But I quit all social handles back in 2010 when Geert called to join him on Quit Facebook Day, and I think I won't return to any platform, even if it is run as a community effort. I will continue to read your posts there and elsewhere in my webbrowser, but I am sorry to say that I won't subscribe to any new platform because I just don't like it. I prefer to read mail and news and feeds on my desktop client, as I always did. BTW, we have had a quite similar discussion for many years on Wikipedia about how to win new editors with new technical gadgets vs. retaining old editors who mostly prefer to keep their vintage environment. Most longtime users still prefer the old plain text editor without any extensions over the new WYSIWYG editor, and they also prefer desktop computers over mobile devices. If you want to satisfy both groups you will have to provide both editing environments. The two groups will never really meet in one place in technical terms. If you would close down the vintage features you would lose those who really run Wikipedia as a core community. If you would not develop new features Wikipedia would be much less attractive to new and younger users. Very similar to the dilemma nettime-l seems to face. Best regards, Jürgen. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
As I’m curious as to how well and how long and how populated the fediverse might end up being in terms of a step beyond corporate social media , I will definitely try the experiment. But I do wonder how all the servers and needed programming can be supported without the horrors connected with advertising that have rendered the corporate versions so destructive. Best, Michael via iPhone, so please ecuse misteaks. > On Nov 30, 2022, at 11:31 AM, Ted Byfield wrote: > > Geoff — > > Thanks for this. I agree with the outlines of what you say, and with most of > the detail too. Felix and Doma have their own perspectives, so this is just > me. > > I'm not sure what you mean about a recurring argument, but that's not to > suggest you're mistaken. As a mod, I probably see nettime through a more > technical lens than most subscribers would, and that's no doubt shaped how > I've talked about the list and its project. That said, I agree the problems > aren't technical in nature, and neither would any 'solutions' be — if > anyone's inclined to believe in 'solutions' (FWIW, I'm not). > > One example, which Felix touched on: the quasi-generational aspect of email, > both relative (when someone ~adopted it) and absolute (how old/young you > are). As we noted in the announcement, it's morphed from a pleasure into > something more like a utility — in part *because* of its standardization, > reliability, etc. Like a lot of nettimers, I've spent decades teaching, and > have a fairly broad experience of students' attitudes to email have become > more negative. Saying it's 'dead' was hyperbole, i.e, an exaggeration with a > seed of truth. Chalk that up to the context: an invitation may say 'happy > holidays' or whatever, but it's not intended as a diktat (though I always > hear a bit of that ideological force too). > > To say that every discussion-oriented mailing list I'm on is graying would be > a serious understatement. They might be fascinating, lively, provocative, > solid, or whatever, but the retirement-home vibe is strong indeed. But in our > case that's just one piece of a puzzle whose picture is very diffuse — with > ~gender / identity issues, regional concentrations, received norms about > relevance and style, etc, etc. I think many would agree the list is great > *and* has problems — or, if you like, could be greater in new ways. > > It's plainly true that we're hopping on the fediverse bandwagon, so > questioning the wisdom of that kind of precipitous action is, without > question, wise. (It's also true, though less visible, that it's only the most > recent move we've weighed.) But that implies another question: is 'doing > nothing' — or at least following the same path wise? In the short term, sure, > but in the longer term no, I think. Doing that would all but guarantee the > list's historical weaknesses would only become more ingrained, and with that > the list would become more and more insular. > > If we had announced we autocratically decided to shut down the list, your > criticism would be spot-on, but we didn't — or at least not quite. We did say > that maintaining both 'infrastructures' seems like it'd be too much for us, > but whatever decisions will be made in that regard can and should be > collective. That's an invitation. We don't know to what exactly, or to whom, > or when, or how, or anything else. > > For me at least, that uncertainty was/is pretty much the essence of this > ~move. It's a risk, but I think nettime's ~stagnation — not just as a list > but as a larger project — is largely due to the fact that we haven't found > ways to take new risks. > > Cheers, > Ted > >> On 29 Nov 2022, at 22:19, Geoffrey Goodell wrote: >> >> I am confused by your recurring argument that the >> problem with Nettime is fundamentally technical in >> nature, or indeed that there is a problem with Nettime >> at all. Speaking personally, Nettime works well for >> me. I read interesting commentary from people I >> respect, with the reassurance that I can always add my >> voice to the symphony. >> >> The fact that I do not post more often is mainly >> testament to the fact that I am busy with other >> responsibilities. I am sure that this is true of >> others here as well. This problem will not suddenly >> disappear with a shift to a different choice of >> underpinning technology. In fact, it will be >> exacerbated, because although I run my own e-mail >> server, the tools for engaging with the so-called >> 'fediverse' are not part of my workflow. And so, a >> shift in technology will inexorably induce a 'shake >> out' in which people are forced to either adopt new >> workflows or face exclusion. I would have thought that >> the moral foundation of Internet ethics would be >> incompatible with the use of force in this way. >> >> As far as I know, the argument that 'fediverse' >> technology, such as that used by Hometown and Mastodon, >> is superior to
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Geoff — Thanks for this. I agree with the outlines of what you say, and with most of the detail too. Felix and Doma have their own perspectives, so this is just me. I'm not sure what you mean about a recurring argument, but that's not to suggest you're mistaken. As a mod, I probably see nettime through a more technical lens than most subscribers would, and that's no doubt shaped how I've talked about the list and its project. That said, I agree the problems aren't technical in nature, and neither would any 'solutions' be — if anyone's inclined to believe in 'solutions' (FWIW, I'm not). One example, which Felix touched on: the quasi-generational aspect of email, both relative (when someone ~adopted it) and absolute (how old/young you are). As we noted in the announcement, it's morphed from a pleasure into something more like a utility — in part *because* of its standardization, reliability, etc. Like a lot of nettimers, I've spent decades teaching, and have a fairly broad experience of students' attitudes to email have become more negative. Saying it's 'dead' was hyperbole, i.e, an exaggeration with a seed of truth. Chalk that up to the context: an invitation may say 'happy holidays' or whatever, but it's not intended as a diktat (though I always hear a bit of that ideological force too). To say that every discussion-oriented mailing list I'm on is graying would be a serious understatement. They might be fascinating, lively, provocative, solid, or whatever, but the retirement-home vibe is strong indeed. But in our case that's just one piece of a puzzle whose picture is very diffuse — with ~gender / identity issues, regional concentrations, received norms about relevance and style, etc, etc. I think many would agree the list is great *and* has problems — or, if you like, could be greater in new ways. It's plainly true that we're hopping on the fediverse bandwagon, so questioning the wisdom of that kind of precipitous action is, without question, wise. (It's also true, though less visible, that it's only the most recent move we've weighed.) But that implies another question: is 'doing nothing' — or at least following the same path wise? In the short term, sure, but in the longer term no, I think. Doing that would all but guarantee the list's historical weaknesses would only become more ingrained, and with that the list would become more and more insular. If we had announced we autocratically decided to shut down the list, your criticism would be spot-on, but we didn't — or at least not quite. We did say that maintaining both 'infrastructures' seems like it'd be too much for us, but whatever decisions will be made in that regard can and should be collective. That's an invitation. We don't know to what exactly, or to whom, or when, or how, or anything else. For me at least, that uncertainty was/is pretty much the essence of this ~move. It's a risk, but I think nettime's ~stagnation — not just as a list but as a larger project — is largely due to the fact that we haven't found ways to take new risks. Cheers, Ted On 29 Nov 2022, at 22:19, Geoffrey Goodell wrote: > I am confused by your recurring argument that the > problem with Nettime is fundamentally technical in > nature, or indeed that there is a problem with Nettime > at all. Speaking personally, Nettime works well for > me. I read interesting commentary from people I > respect, with the reassurance that I can always add my > voice to the symphony. > > The fact that I do not post more often is mainly > testament to the fact that I am busy with other > responsibilities. I am sure that this is true of > others here as well. This problem will not suddenly > disappear with a shift to a different choice of > underpinning technology. In fact, it will be > exacerbated, because although I run my own e-mail > server, the tools for engaging with the so-called > 'fediverse' are not part of my workflow. And so, a > shift in technology will inexorably induce a 'shake > out' in which people are forced to either adopt new > workflows or face exclusion. I would have thought that > the moral foundation of Internet ethics would be > incompatible with the use of force in this way. > > As far as I know, the argument that 'fediverse' > technology, such as that used by Hometown and Mastodon, > is superior to e-mail is weak at best and has never > been articulated to this group. As far as I know, such > technology is in the hands of a handful of software > developers and has not been subject to the same > rigorous standardisation process of the sort that led > to the establishment of e-mail. I suspect that most > people on this list did not use e-mail before 1977, by > which point RFC 724 was already published [1]. Of > course, this standard has evolved over the years, in a > direction that has benefited the world and is now used > by billions of people. As far as I know, there has not > yet been a comparable
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Out of the woodwork we come. My handle is @fl...@social.coop (https://social.coop/@flgnk) which is a cooperatively run instance. I'm not involved in the organization side, but as a coop member I think it is safe to say 'we' raise money for the running of the instance using OpenCollective ( https://opencollective.com/socialcoop ), things are organized and decisions are made through Loomio ( https://www.loomio.com/socialcoop/ ). There is a little more detail on how these pieces fit together here - https://wiki.social.coop/How-to-make-the-fediverse-your-own.html The coop emerged out of group that came together out of a campaign to buy twitter and turn it into a coop. I asked around earlier in the week and found that @nemo...@mamot.fr has been keeping track of collectively organized instances - https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediparty/wiki/Collectively-owned-instances I've enjoyed the change to Mastodon, I've been finding the pirates, hackers and free culture (an old term) folks that I've missed on twitter. To be honest, it's been refreshing, as there still seems to be some energy about these 'old ideas' that I have not encountered in some time. Maybe it was always there, I just wasn't looking in the right places. There really is a wave of people joining. It makes it a lot easier to switch when you can find people you know there. This is a very useful tool to find your twitter people on Mastodon - https://fedifinder.glitch.me/ I think it's an interesting experiment to have a Nettime instance on Mastodon, and perhaps it could be something more. But keep the list going too. I've been on so many lists that died, it really does take a long time to build up a convivial dynamic among list participants and it would be a shame for that to be lost. Kind Regards Kevin On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 16:19, wrote: > > Nothing brings the gently glowing embers of > nettime to life quite like the prospect > of its immanent demise, when the mods launch > one of their cunningly infrequent "shake-em-up" > interventions. > > Whatever the outcome of this latest experiment > the kick-up-the-arse alone makes it worthwhile. > > Thank You Mod-Fathers > > David Garcia > > > On 2022-11-30 07:31, bernd kasparek wrote: > > Dear nettimers, > > > > I joined this list some months ago, have never posted but always read > > with great interest and consequential enlightenment. > > > > I of course fully agree with the argument about technical fixes to > > social problems, but still feel that this is something that should be > > explored more empirically in the context of the usage of this list. > > > > On the technical points: Yes, mail has become more difficult lately, > > but it is not impossible to run your own server. Furthermore, it is > > possible to run a mailman instance that is in full compliance with > > SPIF, DMARC and DKIM, with the only caveat being the rewriting of the > > from: header (the "... via mailinglistname" you might see on other > > mailing lists). > > > > But I really wanted to make a different point: I thoroughly enjoy > > nettime as a mailing list, I enjoy the long form mails exceeding 2k > > characters, I enjoy the built-in offline availability my MUA offers > > me, the discoverability, the searchability, the threadedness, etc. I > > am not convinced (but I am open to persuasion) that Mastodon et al. > > offer all that. Fundamentally, I do believe moving to social > > media-esque formats will alter the way we discuss and read each other > > and believe these consequences should be discussed a bit more in-depth > > before making such a move. > > > > I fully understand that infrastructure maintenance is tedious, boring > > and too often un-gratifying. But maintaining a mastodon instance will > > also be that, once the initial setup is done. The plight of the > > sysadmin is independent from the particular kind of tech she > > maintains. If I can help out there, I'm happy to join the effort. > > > > best wishes > > > > Bernd > > > > > > > # distributed via : no commercial use without permission > #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Nothing brings the gently glowing embers of nettime to life quite like the prospect of its immanent demise, when the mods launch one of their cunningly infrequent "shake-em-up" interventions. Whatever the outcome of this latest experiment the kick-up-the-arse alone makes it worthwhile. Thank You Mod-Fathers David Garcia On 2022-11-30 07:31, bernd kasparek wrote: Dear nettimers, I joined this list some months ago, have never posted but always read with great interest and consequential enlightenment. I of course fully agree with the argument about technical fixes to social problems, but still feel that this is something that should be explored more empirically in the context of the usage of this list. On the technical points: Yes, mail has become more difficult lately, but it is not impossible to run your own server. Furthermore, it is possible to run a mailman instance that is in full compliance with SPIF, DMARC and DKIM, with the only caveat being the rewriting of the from: header (the "... via mailinglistname" you might see on other mailing lists). But I really wanted to make a different point: I thoroughly enjoy nettime as a mailing list, I enjoy the long form mails exceeding 2k characters, I enjoy the built-in offline availability my MUA offers me, the discoverability, the searchability, the threadedness, etc. I am not convinced (but I am open to persuasion) that Mastodon et al. offer all that. Fundamentally, I do believe moving to social media-esque formats will alter the way we discuss and read each other and believe these consequences should be discussed a bit more in-depth before making such a move. I fully understand that infrastructure maintenance is tedious, boring and too often un-gratifying. But maintaining a mastodon instance will also be that, once the initial setup is done. The plight of the sysadmin is independent from the particular kind of tech she maintains. If I can help out there, I'm happy to join the effort. best wishes Bernd # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
On 2022-11-30 01:34, nettime's mod squad wrote: Dear nettimers, Oh wtf why not https://tldr.nettime.org/web/@dk -- Dmytri Kleiner # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Hi Goeffrey, from a technical point of view, the problem with mailing lists is twofold. First, maintaining a mail server has become progressively more work over the years. Second, what a mailman mailing list does is, essentially, rewriting the header, ie making this mail appears as it came from "fe...@openflows.com" when it was actually sent from nettim...@kmx.kein.org. On the level of social communication, this makes sense, but technically, this is what a lots of spammers do as well and many large email providers block such mail. In addition, 'spoofing' headers makes it more likely to land on anti-spam blacklists which one of the reasons for the first point. Socially, the problem is that email as a social (rather then administrational) medium is a bit of a historical artifact. I don't mean only that it's a generational thing, but for many people communication habits have shifted over the last decade or two. Personally, the emails that sit the longest in my inbox, and generate the most personal guilt, are the social ones which take time to answer, which I often don't have. And my impression is that I'm not alone here. I totally agree that it's naive to assume technical solutions to social problems, but sometime some of the social problems are created by the specifics of the technical environment and changing these specifics can help to address them. And, yes, you are right, I'm a bit bored with maintaining the infrastructure as is, so I would rather change it. all the best. Felix On 30.11.22 04:19, Geoffrey Goodell wrote: Dear Doma, Felix, and Ted I am confused by your recurring argument that the problem with Nettime is fundamentally technical in nature, or indeed that there is a problem with Nettime at all. Speaking personally, Nettime works well for me. I read interesting commentary from people I respect, with the reassurance that I can always add my voice to the symphony. The fact that I do not post more often is mainly testament to the fact that I am busy with other responsibilities. I am sure that this is true of others here as well. This problem will not suddenly disappear with a shift to a different choice of underpinning technology. In fact, it will be exacerbated, because although I run my own e-mail server, the tools for engaging with the so-called 'fediverse' are not part of my workflow. And so, a shift in technology will inexorably induce a 'shake out' in which people are forced to either adopt new workflows or face exclusion. I would have thought that the moral foundation of Internet ethics would be incompatible with the use of force in this way. As far as I know, the argument that 'fediverse' technology, such as that used by Hometown and Mastodon, is superior to e-mail is weak at best and has never been articulated to this group. As far as I know, such technology is in the hands of a handful of software developers and has not been subject to the same rigorous standardisation process of the sort that led to the establishment of e-mail. I suspect that most people on this list did not use e-mail before 1977, by which point RFC 724 was already published [1]. Of course, this standard has evolved over the years, in a direction that has benefited the world and is now used by billions of people. As far as I know, there has not yet been a comparable community-based effort to standardise the implementation of 'fediverse' protocols. Here, we have precisely the sort of platform-based tyranny by fiat that the Internet pioneers laboured to bury forever. Finally, I find the argument that new technology can solve a fundamentally social problem to be absurd and somewhat hypocritical based on the topic of discussion on this list. While I am not convinced that the so-called 'fediverse' is a solution looking for a problem, I am also not convinced that it will make things better for us. Perhaps some of the maintainers of the current infrastructure are bored of the job to which they volunteered, years ago. In that case, they should step aside and leave the task of maintaining this list to others. Surely there are democratic and less-than-democratic ways to achieve this; let's try something. Perhaps a call for volunteers might be a start. But what I can say with certainty is that if you pack up and go somewhere else, not everyone will follow you, and even fewer people will follow if you neglect to provide a solid argument for why. Whether you like it or not, Nettime is more than a toy project of yours; it provides a valuable service that works. Let's stick together. Best wishes -- Geoff [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc724 On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 11:34:35PM -0100, nettime's mod squad wrote: Dear nettimers, Nettime was founded at a time when, as quaint as it sounds, email was exciting. That's long since gone for those who experienced it, let alone for those who didn't. Discussion-oriented mailing lists like this are, in a word, over, technically
Digital Democracy and the Digital Public Sphere
Christian Fuchs. 2023. Digital Democracy and the Digital Public Sphere. Media, Communication and Society Volume Six. London: Routledge. 320 pages. Sample chapters and more information: https://fuchsc.uti.at/books/digital-democracy-and-the-digital-public-sphere/ Based on the approach of the Critique of the Political Economy and dialectical philosophy, this sixth volume in Christian Fuchs’ Media, Communication and Society series critically address questions around the digital public sphere and the challenges and opportunities for digital democracy today. The book discusses topics such as Karl Marx, journalism and democracy; digital democracy, the digital public sphere, digital alienation, sustainability in digital democracy, journalism and democracy, public service media, the public service Internet, and democratic communications. Fuchs argues for the creation of a public service Internet run by public service media that consists of platforms such as a public service YouTube and Club 2.0, a renewed digital democracy and digital public sphere version of the legendary debate programme format Club 2. The book presents foundations and analyses of digital democracy that are interesting for both students and researchers in media studies, cultural studies, communication studies, political science, sociology, Internet research, information science, as well as related disciplines. Table of Contents I. INTRODUCTION 1. Democracy, Communicative Democracy, Digital Democracy II. FOUNDATIONS OF DIGITAL DEMOCRACY 2. The Dialectic: Not Just the Absolute Recoil, but the World’s Living Fire that Extinguishes and Kindles Itself: Reflections on Slavoj Žižek’s Version of Dialectical Philosophy in „Absolute Recoil: Towards a New Foundation of Dialectical Materialism“ 3. The Critique of the Political Economy of the Media and Communication 4. Power in the Age of Social Media 5. The Praxis School’s Marxist Humanism and Mihailo Marković’s Theory of Communication 6. Sustainability and Community Networks 7. Karl Marx, Journalism, and Democracy 8. Towards a Critical Theory of Communication as Renewal and Update of Marxist Humanism in the Age of Digital Capitalism 9. Digital Democracy, Public Service Media, and the Public Service Internet III. CONCLUSION 10. The Structural Transformation of the Public Sphere and Alienation: Challenges and Opportunities for the Advancement of Digital Democracy Also available: Media, Communication and Society Volume 1: Marxist Humanism and Communication Theory Media, Communication and Society Volume 2: Foundations of Critical Theory Media, Communication and Society Volume 3: Digital Capitalism Media, Communication and Society Volume 4: Digital Fascism Media, Communication and Society Volume 5: Digital Ethics # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
Re: Moving Nettime to the Fediverse
Hello, This is a good move with exciting possibilities. The fediverse is in an expansive mood right now with a massive influx of people; an intensely evolving social space with strong anti-corporate sensibilities. A forest with trees, paths to be explored - a refreshing landscape with a different communication toolbox (or maybe something from the past now reconfigured?). best allan On 11/30/22 01:34, nettime's mod squad wrote: Dear nettimers, Nettime was founded at a time when, as quaint as it sounds, email was exciting. That's long since gone for those who experienced it, let alone for those who didn't. Discussion-oriented mailing lists like this are, in a word, over, technically *and* culturally. It's time to think more attentively about whether or how nettime can evolve beyond email and its peculiar 'list culture.' And it's not just email. The edifices that have displaced and replaced lists are on the rocks too. Twitter is widely thought to be going over a cliff as Facebook, already graying, sinks under the weight of its "Metaverse." As more and more people cast around for alternatives, net.critique has become a bit of a thing again. We say: let's ditch the mailing list and start moving to the fediverse. Toward this end, we've set up an instance < https://tldr.nettime.org > with the following bare-bones "about": tldr.nettime is an instance for artists, researchers, and activists interested in exploring the intersections of technology, culture, and politics. It has grown out of nettime-l, one of the longest-running mailing lists on the net — in particular, on the 'cultural politics of the internet'. tldr.nettime is based on Hometown, a fork of Mastodon. It's compatible with the wider fediverse, but it also offers two tweaks we hope will help make it unusually fruitful: * The character count per message is higher — 2000 chars at the moment. * You can choose whether your post is public or visible only on tldr's local timeline and only to tldr's members. Aside from that, everything is raw by design: it's for those who make the move to define what this instance will be and how we can make it useful. This is a chance to move beyond nettime's shrinking in-group, so feel free to invite others. Our goal is to keep tldr to a size where the local timeline remains a useful tool for an actual, not rhetorical, community; how big that is remains to be seen. In the longer run, we won't maintain two infrastructures, one for email, one for the fediverse. At some point we'll close one — ideally, which one will be a collective decision. So, we hope this is the beginning of change in every sense, hopefully including some of the imbalances that have plagued the mailing list for many years. There's no clear path or process ahead, so this is a free-form, open invitation to get involved. As they say: be the change you want to see on nettime. See you on the other side Doma, Felix & Ted # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
