[NSP] Re: Information please
My lovely wife Heather takes a dutiful, if passing, interest in some of these exchanges. Her outsider's opinion on this topic is interesting. She reckons changing James Allan's diminutive form from Jamie to Jimmy is as big an error as changing Robert Burn's diminutive from Rabby to Bobby! Bearing in mind that Jamie Allan is one of the most famous pipers/characters of all time we should at least get his name right. Imagine the uproar if a Scottish Poetry Society single-handedly called its most famous bard Bobby!! As aye Anthony --- On Wed, 11/3/09, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Information please To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 11 March, 2009, 11:51 AM On 3/11/09, Anthony Robb [1]anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: ... a cavalier disregard for accuracy. I wonder if we can look forward to a correction soon? In the scheme of things, this is a small matter. The NPS, like any human construct, is imperfect. But as a body and as individuals I find much more readiness in the NPS to admit and correct errors than is the case with many other human constructs, including and especially another piping society with which I have some familiarity. By comparison, the NPS looks enlightened - really!! To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Chanter hole spacings
Viola for sale - recently tuned. How did they know? g? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Moving away from the First 30 tunes
Hi Anthony, Obviously I don't have your knowledge and background of Northumbrian music, so I don't have the same depth of feeling for these matters that you do. My purpose in following the threads on this group is to get an understanding of piping as it is, and was, from experienced people like you, and this is an incredibly rich source of knowledge. Because there is such a diverse range of opinions, often based on historical or geographical connections, often deeply held, the picture is rich and colourful. Long may that continue. You are perhaps correct that the direct relevance of masonry to the first 30 tunes is had to see, and maybe a new title was appropriate, but as a thread of thought I felt it was pertinent, and indeed the mason's decision was perhaps food for thought. I don't think there is any wish to gloss over the heritage, just a lack of knowledge, which is why your contribution is so valued. Re many of these pieces were still being played by a strong cohort of traditional musicians in north Northumberland in a style which pleased them and fitted their needs extremely well. Do you feel, as you have used the past tense, that this is no longer so? Is the (North?) Northumbrian style of playing lost apart from recordings? Has it been subsumed by Tyneside influences? Which current players do you feel best demonstrate that style? Is that style better/truer then other styles currently in evidence? Should any style be preserved in aspic or should we accept evolution, whilst treasuring, and being influenced by styles of the past be they on vinyl or in mp3? Discuss. Tim - Original Message - From: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:20 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: First 30 tunes Sorry to butt in folks, especially since I'm not sure what the exact context is! As the subject matter is the First 30 tunes the relevance of Victorian / Medieval masonry escapes me. I do get the impression, Richard, that you might be regarding these tunes as treasures from an earlier age. Let me reassure you that many of these pieces were still being played by a strong cohort of traditional musicians in north Northumberland in a style which pleased them and fitted their needs extremely well. It is the lack of appreciation of this and the fact that they played their reels with a phrasing that was neither march, polka or reel. This pulse fitted the dance step of choice, the Rant, so perfectly that they referred to the tunes themselves as rants. This was far more than a social pastime for the likes of Will Atkinson whose payment from The Tanner Hops made his, Bella's and their 10 bairns lives, much more bearable. It is the glossing over of this unique heritage that drives me to bring it to a wider audience. If you haven't already done so buy Will Atkinson's wonderful CD and you'll see what I mean. Regards Anthony --- On Wed, 11/3/09, Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk wrote: From: Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: First 30 tunes To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 11 March, 2009, 8:48 PM In a way, that's the least important part of the story :) It struck me at the time what a parallel it was with our treatment of music which comes to us from before our time, or at least before deadly accurate sound recording, whether it's medieval or anything else. But to answer your question, Tim, if I remember aright, he treated them each variously according to how much was evident from the original form, how much damage the dear Victorians had done, and in what condition and how stable each was. Perhaps that's relevant too. Best wishes, Richard. tim rolls BT wrote: Hi Richard, Don't leave us hanging what did he choose to do? Tim - Original Message - From: Richard York [1]rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk To: NSP group [2]...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:10 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: First 30 tunes Some years ago I met a man who was responsible for some work on the musicians carvings in Beverley Minster, most famous of course being the pipers. His quandary was whether to simply clean them up as they were, or to restore them to what the Victorians had imposed on them, mistakes and all, or to try to restore them to what he thought the medieval carvers had intended, though that last was now very impossible to do with any certainty, given changes in their condition over time, so he'd be imposing on them. And whatever he did would be right for some people, wrong for others, and whatever he did they'd never be as they once used to be. Or he could simply leave them to fall to bits by themselves. Richard. Anthony Robb
[NSP] Guidwife of Peebles
I taught this tune at the recent LBPS weekend at Melrose, having found it in the NPS Border Bagpipe Tutor. There were several comments on the unusual nature of the tune compared to most of the Borders repertoire. I have always assumed it was associated with a song, but can anybody provide any background to the tune? Thanks Richard -- Richard Evans To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Moving away from the First 30 tunes
Hi All, I agree with Anthony on the importance of recognising regional styles, and that dance and music go hand in hand. I think it's important to remember, though, that the North Northumberland style is much more to do with Scottish country dance music, and was heavily influenced by Jimmy Shand. I admire and respect the music of the fiddlers and moothie players Anthony has cited, but see it as a separate tradition. The piping tradition is different, with a separate repertoire that shows off the pipes to their best, which, over the past couple of hundred years has developed a focus on listening/performance rather than dance. As my recent article in the NPS Magazine suggested, the piping tradition is a post-Industrial Revolution one, with its hotbed in South-East Northumberland. The style of the preferred tunes in the North of the county does not always sit well on the pipes, particularly the Burnt Potato tunes which a sizeable number of people now think are Northumbrian. I'm not suggesting that there weren't pipers participating in the N Northumberland scene, but it's interesting that the pedigree (I hate that term - please suggest another) of the prominent pipers in the North of the county can be traced back to Newsham. The music in the North seems to me to be a fiddle/accordeon tradition in which pipers participated rather than led. There are parallels in Ireland where uilleann pipers may join in with all sorts of reels , jigs etc in sessions, but the hard core repertoire is seen as the big 5-plus part piping jigs like frieze Britches and the Gold Ring. Discuss!!! Chris Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:13:14 + To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu From: tim.ro...@btconnect.com Subject: [NSP] Moving away from the First 30 tunes Hi Anthony, Obviously I don't have your knowledge and background of Northumbrian music, so I don't have the same depth of feeling for these matters that you do. My purpose in following the threads on this group is to get an understanding of piping as it is, and was, from experienced people like you, and this is an incredibly rich source of knowledge. Because there is such a diverse range of opinions, often based on historical or geographical connections, often deeply held, the picture is rich and colourful. Long may that continue. You are perhaps correct that the direct relevance of masonry to the first 30 tunes is had to see, and maybe a new title was appropriate, but as a thread of thought I felt it was pertinent, and indeed the mason's decision was perhaps food for thought. I don't think there is any wish to gloss over the heritage, just a lack of knowledge, which is why your contribution is so valued. Re many of these pieces were still being played by a strong cohort of traditional musicians in north Northumberland in a style which pleased them and fitted their needs extremely well. Do you feel, as you have used the past tense, that this is no longer so? Is the (North?) Northumbrian style of playing lost apart from recordings? Has it been subsumed by Tyneside influences? Which current players do you feel best demonstrate that style? Is that style better/truer then other styles currently in evidence? Should any style be preserved in aspic or should we accept evolution, whilst treasuring, and being influenced by styles of the past be they on vinyl or in mp3? Discuss. Tim - Original Message - From: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:20 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: First 30 tunes Sorry to butt in folks, especially since I'm not sure what the exact context is! As the subject matter is the First 30 tunes the relevance of Victorian / Medieval masonry escapes me. I do get the impression, Richard, that you might be regarding these tunes as treasures from an earlier age. Let me reassure you that many of these pieces were still being played by a strong cohort of traditional musicians in north Northumberland in a style which pleased them and fitted their needs extremely well. It is the lack of appreciation of this and the fact that they played their reels with a phrasing that was neither march, polka or reel. This pulse fitted the dance step of choice, the Rant, so perfectly that they referred to the tunes themselves as rants. This was far more than a social pastime for the likes of Will Atkinson whose payment from The Tanner Hops made his, Bella's and their 10 bairns lives, much more bearable. It is the glossing over of this unique heritage that drives me to bring
[NSP] Re: Moving away from the First 30 tunes
Hello Tim No one with respect and love of the Tradition would want to see it apreserved in aspica. Will Atkinson and Will Taylor would kindly record tunes into my basic apiano keya cassette recorder for me to learn (long before the days when I attempted to learn about the dots) and far from keeping them preserved, Iad record over the tapes with new stuff once I got the tune in my head! I canat believe I did this now, but it was just the everydayness of it all, it seemed the natural thing to do. Nor did I take a single photograph in all those years, of either them or Joe. No I donat want things preserved in aspic, neither do I want to convert everyone to what they had to offer. On the other hand Iad be heartbroken to see their musical achievements pigeon-holed as interesting but irrelevant relics. Listen to track 4 of Kathrynas aBack to the Hillsa. You will hear a perfect illustration of the difference between a march and a rant (OK the rant is called aShirleyas Reela but it is not played as a reel). This track sounds fresh and wonderful and so different to the pan-celtic rhythms on so many other CDs. Part of the problem I think is that pipers were always out-numbered by other musicians in the north of the county and the rant rhythm, in particular, is a pig to play on the pipes! That it was done is beyond dispute. This was more than just a niggle for some of the fiddlers who usually had two instruments; one in pipes, and one in concert pitch. Will Taylor told me more than once that he aHated playing his pipes fiddle a absolutely hated it a like playing something strung with knicker elastic!a Mike Nelson eventually made Joe a concert G set. Will Taylor was over the moon!! There is a photo of Joe playing this set (along with Will Taylor on fiddle) on the cover of the aNorthumberland Ranta CD. Of course things evolve and people die or move away but some very good players are still finding this style pleasing. Iave already mentioned Kathryn, less well known is Jimmy Little (piper and mouth organ player) who is up at Chathill. Jimmy owned-up recently to being one of the Teddy Boys ranting in drapes, winkle-pickers etc. spotted by Louis Killen at The Alnwick Gathering in the 50s. Perhaps most exponents are now in the south of the county, on Tyneside or even in Durham! Iam thinking of pipers like Paul Knox, and fiddllers like Stewart Hardy, Nikki Williamson and Ruth Ball. David Oliver makes a good stab at it and Alice Burn also makes successful forays into this genre, piping in rant sets under preparation for a new Windy Gyle Band CD. Quite perversely, the only rant on the Windy Gyle CD was The Rant from The Shipley Set but Mr Awkward here couldnat feel it as a rant so got the musicians to do it as a medium reel! As you say, Tim, the breadth and scope of our tradition adds to its richness. Iam simply suggesting we recognise one very special and unique facet of this amazing mix and inform others about its existence. I simply want people fully informed. That way they can decide for themselves whether the music appeals enough to be played today. As aye Anthony --- On Thu, 12/3/09, tim rolls BT tim.ro...@btconnect.com wrote: From: tim rolls BT tim.ro...@btconnect.com Subject: [NSP] Moving away from the First 30 tunes To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 12 March, 2009, 9:13 AM Hi Anthony, Obviously I don't have your knowledge and background of Northumbrian music, so I don't have the same depth of feeling for these matters that you do. My purpose in following the threads on this group is to get an understanding of piping as it is, and was, from experienced people like you, and this is an incredibly rich source of knowledge. Because there is such a diverse range of opinions, often based on historical or geographical connections, often deeply held, the picture is rich and colourful. Long may that continue. You are perhaps correct that the direct relevance of masonry to the first 30 tunes is had to see, and maybe a new title was appropriate, but as a thread of thought I felt it was pertinent, and indeed the mason's decision was perhaps food for thought. I don't think there is any wish to gloss over the heritage, just a lack of knowledge, which is why your contribution is so valued. Re many of these pieces were still being played by a strong cohort of traditional musicians in north Northumberland in a style which pleased them and fitted their needs extremely well. Do you feel, as you have used the past tense, that this is no longer so? Is the (North?) Northumbrian style of playing lost apart from recordings? Has it been subsumed by Tyneside influences? Which current players do you feel best demonstrate that style? Is that style better/truer then other
[NSP] Re: J Allen
Here,here! Colin R -Original Message- From: Barry Say barr...@nspipes.co.uk To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:00 Subject: [NSP] J Allen On 12 Mar 2009 at 0:46, Anthony Robb wrote. Hi All, I have sent Anthony Robb a copy of my e-mail suggesting the genesis of the tune Jimmy Allen. The tune first appearred in print in an EFDSS publication in the early 1960s. Since then it has passed into the wider English musical tradition under the name Jimmy Allen. The tune was rieved from Scotland. It apparently has 3 tenths of nothing to do with any Northumbrian tradition except the one of stealing and changing other people's tunes which we do very well. It also has no relation to the piper, horse thief and multiple military deserter, J Allen Esq (late of Durham workhouse). If the NPS were to try and change the title of such a widespread tune, it would look like ridiculous pedantry. Like it or not, the tune Jimmy Allen is now part of the English musical heritage. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today.
[NSP] Re: (Fwd) Jimmy Allan traditional (?)
But the Scottish name was not Jimmy Allen - it was 'Reel of Tullochgorum', so I understood. Stealing a tune, and renaming it is what Jamie would have done - but getting the new name wrong smacks of carelessness... John -Original Message- From: nsp-request+j.gibbons=ic.ac...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:nsp-request+j.gibbons=ic.ac...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 12 March 2009 12:12 To: Barry Say; Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: (Fwd) Jimmy Allan traditional (?) Dear Barry You miss my point entirely. It's not the Allan/Allen thing that concerns me, neither do I worry about where the tune comes from. Some one at some point named it after one of our most famous Northumbrian characters. Some one else changed the name without any good reason that I (or any one else it seems) can see. As my my wife points out, this is as crass as calling Rabby Burns, Bobby Burns. We have no right to do it and, if we wish to be taken seriously, shouldn't do it. Matt Seattle regards it as a modern mistake; I agree with him so I'm suggesting the NPS corrects the error (subtley and without fuss ) in future publications. As aye Anthony --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Barry Say barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: From: Barry Say barr...@nspipes.co.uk Subject: (Fwd) Jimmy Allan traditional (?) To: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com Date: Thursday, 12 March, 2009, 10:07 AM Dear Anthony, I am forwarding a copy of an e-mail I sent to the list two montths ago. This gives the best version of my understanding of the origins of the tune Jimmy Allen. I know I spelt Allen, Allan but hey --- Forwarded message follows --- From: Barry Say [1]barr...@nspipes.co.uk To: nsp [2]...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject:Jimmy Allan traditional (?) Date sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:17:41 - Hi All, This is a follow-up to an earlier e-mail. As editor of the NPS Magazine, I was well aware of the content of Chris Ormston's article well before the NPS membership or the wider piping community. I refrained from commenting on it or saying anything related to it until the magazine was published. However, it set me thinking. As an exercise, I tried to think of old tunes which would serve as initial targets for beginner pipers. In the course of this, Jimmy Allan sprang to mind, but I found that it did not appear in the Peacock Collection, Bewick Book, or the Vickers collection and to my surprise, it did not appear in the first edition of the Northumbrian Pipers' Tunebook (1936) nor in the Fiddler's Tunebook(1951/54) edited by Peter Kennedy. Peter Kennedy was a pivotal figure in the traditional music scene in the 1950s and 60s and worked extensively in the North-East and is probably the person most responsible for making the music of the North-East of England available to the whole of England in that period. I do not intend this as either praise or criticism. I had always assumed from its name that it was part of the Northumbrian tradition, but I am beginning to suspect that we have been deceived by our own willingness to believe that which seems convenient. The tune as we know it appears in the EFDSS Community dance manual volume 6 on a page with two tunes composed in 1961. The copyright dates would indicate that it was publised in 1964 or 1967. I cannot lay my hands on my copy of this but I amn sure that this publication was certainly part of Peter Kennedy's sphere of influence, but the fact that it does not appear in the first two volumes of the Fiddlers Tunebook, would indicate that he was unaware of it in 1951 and had found it by 1964. The Reel of Tullochgorum is almost certainly the same tune but is reckoned to be in D. It was published by Ian Powrie, apparently in the late 1950s and it seems that he claimed that it was a traditional tune which he had collected. Ian lived in Perthshire - so that is the first place we would suspect. Now we come to the important link. Ian Powrie lead a Scottish Dance Band which appeared on the 'White Heather Club', a television program which I know was available in the North East (of England), because I saw it. So - unless someone can come up with some other evidence - the best story I can come up with is that: Ian Powrie collected the 'Reel of Tullochgorum' in North-East Scotland. A Northumbrian musician picked it up through the White Heather Club (or some other route) It was adopted by the Northumbrian piping community who would insist on playing it in nominal 'G'. --- I have mentioned some of this to Matt Seattle, who, at the time I contacted him, had no recollection of finding Jimmy Allan or any related tunes in his researches. If any list members can
[NSP] Re: Moving away from the First 30 tunes
Hello Chris and all, Talking sense as usual bonny lad. You are absolutely right in that the tree trunk of the piping tradition is as you describe it but there are branches too. My reply to Tim R crossed with yours in the ether, but we are virtually saying the same thing. A couple of points though: 1. When a piper does hit the rant groove it is absolutely delicious! Clean, crisp and stunning - you've done this yourself at the Bridge of Aln sessions and they rocked! 2. There are inevitable similarities between the north Northumberland bands and those over the border especially in choice of line up, but the only band to follow the Shand type sound was Robert Whitelaw and the Danelaw Band. These were certainly popular but not the full story. Oh how I wish videos had been around as I watched Will Taylor dancing Morpeth Rant to John Daggs' Tillside Trio. It was as far removed from Scottish dance or music as any proud Northumbrian could wish As aye Anthony From: Chris Ormston ch...@chrisormston.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Moving away from the First 30 tunes To: tim.ro...@btconnect.com, NSP List nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 12 March, 2009, 11:50 AM Hi All, I agree with Anthony on the importance of recognising regional styles, and that dance and music go hand in hand. I think it's important to remember, though, that the North Northumberland style is much more to do with Scottish country dance music, and was heavily influenced by Jimmy Shand. I admire and respect the music of the fiddlers and moothie players Anthony has cited, but see it as a separate tradition. The piping tradition is different, with a separate repertoire that shows off the pipes to their best, which, over the past couple of hundred years has developed a focus on listening/performance rather than dance. As my recent article in the NPS Magazine suggested, the piping tradition is a post-Industrial Revolution one, with its hotbed in South-East Northumberland. The style of the preferred tunes in the North of the county does not always sit well on the pipes, particularly the Burnt Potato tunes which a sizeable number of people now think are Northumbrian. I'm not suggesting that there weren't pipers participating in the N Northumberland scene, but it's interesting that the pedigree (I hate that term - please suggest another) of the prominent pipers in the North of the county can be traced back to Newsham. The music in the North seems to me to be a fiddle/accordeon tradition in which pipers participated rather than led. There are parallels in Ireland where uilleann pipers may join in with all sorts of reels , jigs etc in sessions, but the hard core repertoire is seen as the big 5-plus part piping jigs like frieze Britches and the Gold Ring. Discuss!!! Chris Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:13:14 + To: [1]...@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [2]tim.ro...@btconnect.com Subject: [NSP] Moving away from the First 30 tunes Hi Anthony, Obviously I don't have your knowledge and background of Northumbrian music, so I don't have the same depth of feeling for these matters that you do. My purpose in following the threads on this group is to get an understanding of piping as it is, and was, from experienced people like you, and this is an incredibly rich source of knowledge. Because there is such a diverse range of opinions, often based on historical or geographical connections, often deeply held, the picture is rich and colourful. Long may that continue. You are perhaps correct that the direct relevance of masonry to the first 30 tunes is had to see, and maybe a new title was appropriate, but as a thread of thought I felt it was pertinent, and indeed the mason's decision was perhaps food for thought. I don't think there is any wish to gloss over the heritage, just a lack of knowledge, which is why your contribution is so valued. Re many of these pieces were still being played by a strong cohort of traditional musicians in north Northumberland in a style which pleased them and fitted their needs extremely well. Do you feel, as you have used the past tense, that this is no longer so? Is the (North?) Northumbrian style of playing lost apart from recordings? Has it been subsumed by Tyneside influences? Which current players do you feel best demonstrate that style? Is that style better/truer then other styles currently in
[NSP] Re: J Allen
Hello Barry Would that it were all that simple. Please enlighten me - who is Jimmy Allen? It has certainly caused confusion in the city of Durham where we have a pub, the cellars of which, go down towards the gaol when Jamie Allan was detained; the pub's name - you've guessed it - Jimmy Allen's! Such a shame the owners have been sucked in by the confusion and named the place after the wrong bloke! As aye Anthony --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Barry Say barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote From: Barry Say barr...@nspipes.co.uk Subject: [NSP] J Allen To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 12 March, 2009, 11:00 AM On 12 Mar 2009 at 0:46, Anthony Robb wrote. Hi All, I have sent Anthony Robb a copy of my e-mail suggesting the genesis of the tune Jimmy Allen. The tune first appearred in print in an EFDSS publication in the early 1960s. Since then it has passed into the wider English musical tradition under the name Jimmy Allen. The tune was rieved from Scotland. It apparently has 3 tenths of nothing to do with any Northumbrian tradition except the one of stealing and changing other people's tunes which we do very well. It also has no relation to the piper, horse thief and multiple military deserter, J Allen Esq (late of Durham workhouse). If the NPS were to try and change the title of such a widespread tune, it would look like ridiculous pedantry. Like it or not, the tune Jimmy Allen is now part of the English musical heritage. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune Phrasing / Rants / Reels / Polkas
Hi Mike, This is a forum for the Northumbrian Pipes and the traditional music of the north east, and as such is often very interesting and informative. It helps us all to work on playing the pipes well and to figure out how we can improve our playing in the Northumbrian tradition. But please don't ask the northerners how we should play tunes in our own area! We can be proud of our own tradition here, which is rich and thriving even if we don't shout quite so loud. Let the northerners do the ranting, we can enjoy playing them however we like. Wasn't Halsway great as always? All the best, Paul Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:23:19 + To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu From: mikeande...@worcesterfolk.org.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Tune Phrasing / Rants / Reels / Polkas So we've had a long discussion about rants, reels, polkas. I'm sure that those resident in the North-East should continue to play these tunes with a good traditional rant rhythm. What about those pipers like me, resident in the far south ? Some of the tunes we play on the pipes (Salmontails, Winster Gallop for instance) are common across the whole country, and are played as polkas hereabouts. When I introduce some other North Eastern tunes, even if I had the ability to ensure they started as rants, the other mujsicians around me would probably turn them into polkas. Yet tunes have always historically drifted across the country, into Ireland and Scotland and back, etc such than you often can't tell where they started ! It also begs the question as to whether, as a southerner, I should be trying to play them as rants at all ! Mike To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Beyond Hotmail see what else you can do with Windows Live. [1]Find out more! -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665375/direct/01/
[NSP] Tradition and dance forms
One thing that might be worth considering in the context of the debate here over the past few days is that in at least one another tradition, the way a dance-based genre was originally danced need not determine how it later came to be played. I'm referring to classical music (or Western art music, mainstream music... whatever you care to call it). Bach made great use of dance forms, for both harpsichord and other instruments, but not with a view to his music being danced to. The minuets in Mozart's symphonies are well away from the social dance from which they derive. Wagner called Beethoven's 7th Symphony the apotheosis of the dance, but he didn't mean that it was actually music for dancing. The Strauss family's waltzes can (perhaps) be danced to but are in fact subtle concert pieces. Mahler makes much use of marches and dances but how the Austro-Hungarian armies actually marched or danced in the pub is only relevant in that it underlies Mahler's ironical use of these forms. My point would be that traditions develop in all kinds of ways under all kinds of influences - they go their own way. What they were like originally may come to be irrelevant. That said, returning to the roots may well be valuable and refreshing: thank God for historically informed performance of Baroque music, for example, and for Allan MacDonald's approach to piobaireachd. But we are not likely to want to hear the Blue Danube played as if it were a Laendler, the folk dance from which it derives. Sorry to rant on about posh stuff like this. I shall reel off to the pub for a quick clog dance. Paul Gretton (Schimmert, Holland) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tradition and dance forms
Thanks Paul for injecting a bit of commonsense into all this purist debate of the Wonderful World of Ranting and its exponents belonging to the Dead Ranters Society when all they were doing were playing tunes that they had not been to lessons to learn how to play but just liked playing or even composing the tunes. This was our approach with the High Level Ranters- ask Ali Anderson about that- but obviously it didn't work as we don't feature in the Great Debate. Sorry for calling Alistair 'Ali' but if we are to get things right in our NPS tune titiles maybe we should get back to basics and call 'wor Jimmy, Jacobus Allan. I was going to say 'here,here' again to Paul's message but I realised my previous mistake in registering my approval where aurally it may be correct but not in fact. An example of where following the oral picking up of the House of Commons expression of approval by MP's has gone wrong in the hands of a member of the NPS who are accused of being illiterate. Colon Ros Paul Gretton (Schimmert, Holland) -Original Message- From: Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:59 Subject: [NSP] Tradition and dance forms One thing that might be worth considering in the context of the debate here over the past few days is that in at least one another tradition, the way a dance-based genre was originally danced need not determine how it later came to be played. I'm referring to classical music (or Western art music, mainstream music... whatever you care to call it). Bach made great use of dance forms, for both harpsichord and other instruments, but not with a view to his music being danced to. The minuets in Mozart's symphonies are well away from the social dance from which they derive. Wagner called Beethoven's 7th Symphony the apotheosis of the dance, but he didn't mean that it was actually music for dancing. The Strauss family's waltzes can (perhaps) be danced to but are in fact subtle concert pieces. Mahler makes much use of marches and dances but how the Austro-Hungarian armies actually marched or danced in the pub is only relevant in that it underlies Mahler's ironical use of these forms. My point would be that traditions develop in all kinds of ways under all kinds of influences - they go their own way. What they were like originally may come to be irrelevant. That said, returning to the roots may well be valuable and refreshing: thank God for historically informed performance of Baroque music, for example, and for Allan MacDonald's approach to piobaireachd. But we are not likely to want to hear the Blue Danube played as if it were a Laendler, the folk dance from which it derives. Sorry to rant on about posh stuff like this. I shall reel off to the pub for a quick clog dance. Paul Gretton (Schimmert, Holland) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today.
[NSP] Re: J Allen (and Rants)
Irrespective of the origin and age of the tune, surely - as anyone who has done any research into family history knows - the spelling of names in the 18th and early 19th century was subject to almost infinite variation (and how many spellings are there for Shakespeare??) so - when James, Jem, Jemy, Jemmy, Jamie, Jim, Jimmy, Jimmie, Allen, Allan, Alan gave his name orally to someone who then wrote it down, the clerk may have (aurally?) heard the name correctly and used any number of spellings to write it down. I suppose the question hangs on what spelling Allen himself used when (and if) he wrote it. A couple of generations before him, his family certainly wouldn't have been literate, and would neither know nor care about the spelling. The way it is spelt in the published Life is probably just a snapshot of one time in the name's life. More relevant may be how Allen's family said it - what accent, and did they use a more or less Scottish pronunciation? Does it matter, or is it a question of rival nationalisms either side the Border? Just a thought from Philip (often mispelled Phillip - preferably not Phil, and certainly not Pip if you don't mind) Gruar - whose not very distant ancestor, a tenant farmer on the Highland Line at the time J. Allen was around, was spelt at different times Gruar, Gruer, Grewar and Growar. Now - Rants. I can theorise endlessly about the precise relative length of paired quavers in baroque music, but I'm not a particularly good piper, and don't live in the centre of The Tradition. For the benefit of those reading this who live completely outside it, could experts please confirm if I'm right that in Rant playing the quavers are very *slightly* uneven, but not as dotted as in a hornpipe, and giving a heavier feel than in a reel, because in a reel you feel two minim (half-note) beats in a bar - each beat made of four equal quavers (quarter-notes). In Rants and Hornpipes it's definitely four crotchet (quarter note) beats to the bar, each beat normally consisting of two uneven quavers, but in a hornpipe the first quaver is strongly accented and lengthened, and the second one is very light and short. The rant gives much more equal weight to the two quavers. Is this easier to understand than tomato soup and gobstoppers, or am I talking through my hat? Oh, and welcome to the list Anthony, it's great to have your contributions. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] correction to terminology
Sorry - I gave a wrong translation! Should have said quaver (eighth-note) Minims = Half-note, Crotchet = Quarter-note, Quaver=Eighth-note. But you knew that anyway. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: J Allen (and Rants)
Thanks for that Philip I agree. That is why my intial request was for written references to Jimmy pre NPS. Matt replied almost by return to say there were none. My beef was there is no excuse post 1944 for conjuring up a name for no good reason. If Barry provides the evidence that Jimmy Allen and Jamie Allen are indeed different people my objections will evaporate. Warmest best Anthony Thu, 12/3/09, Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net wrote: From: Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net Subject: [NSP] Re: J Allen (and Rants) To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 12 March, 2009, 7:30 PM Irrespective of the origin and age of the tune, surely - as anyone who has done any research into family history knows - the spelling of names in the 18th and early 19th century was subject to almost infinite variation (and how many spellings are there for Shakespeare??) so - when James, Jem, Jemy, Jemmy, Jamie, Jim, Jimmy, Jimmie, Allen, Allan, Alan gave his name orally to someone who then wrote it down, the clerk may have (aurally?) heard the name correctly and used any number of spellings to write it down. I suppose the question hangs on what spelling Allen himself used when (and if) he wrote it. A couple of generations before him, his family certainly wouldn't have been literate, and would neither know nor care about the spelling. The way it is spelt in the published Life is probably just a snapshot of one time in the name's life. More relevant may be how Allen's family said it - what accent, and did they use a more or less Scottish pronunciation? Does it matter, or is it a question of rival nationalisms either side the Border? Just a thought from Philip (often mispelled Phillip - preferably not Phil, and certainly not Pip if you don't mind) Gruar - whose not very distant ancestor, a tenant farmer on the Highland Line at the time J. Allen was around, was spelt at different times Gruar, Gruer, Grewar and Growar. Now - Rants. I can theorise endlessly about the precise relative length of paired quavers in baroque music, but I'm not a particularly good piper, and don't live in the centre of The Tradition. For the benefit of those reading this who live completely outside it, could experts please confirm if I'm right that in Rant playing the quavers are very *slightly* uneven, but not as dotted as in a hornpipe, and giving a heavier feel than in a reel, because in a reel you feel two minim (half-note) beats in a bar - each beat made of four equal quavers (quarter-notes). In Rants and Hornpipes it's definitely four crotchet (quarter note) beats to the bar, each beat normally consisting of two uneven quavers, but in a hornpipe the first quaver is strongly accented and lengthened, and the second one is very light and short. The rant gives much more equal weight to the two quavers. Is this easier to understand than tomato soup and gobstoppers, or am I talking through my hat? Oh, and welcome to the list Anthony, it's great to have your contributions. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: correction to terminology
No, Philip, they're all whole notes - how can you have half a note? It's like half a piece of string. On 3/12/09, Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net wrote: Sorry - I gave a wrong translation! Should have said quaver (eighth-note) Minims = Half-note, Crotchet = Quarter-note, Quaver=Eighth-note. But you knew that anyway. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune Phrasing / Rants / Reels / Polkas
I suppose it's a problem you face whenever playing music not from your own tradition. It took a melodeon workshop in Ireland to make me realise that I had a local style of box playing, and that I want to keep it ! If it's an Irish reel or jig, it normally goes on the whistle now. Some polkas fit well on the box though. With the pipes, it's a question of whether we stick to the style for the area where the pipes came from, or just use them for our own local music, in our own local style. I play lots of Northumbrian tunes, but also nationally common tunes (including Jimmy sorry Jamie sorry Jimmy Allen) and I played Dorset Four Hand Reel on Sunday. I'm trying to learn the Worcestershire Hornpipe. Yes, I really enjoyed Halsway, especially the informal session / play-a-round on Sunday. I was struggling at times during the tutorials though. I wish my sight-reading was better ! Mike - Original Message - From: Paul Rhodes oxpi...@hotmail.com To: Dartmouth NSP nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:08 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Tune Phrasing / Rants / Reels / Polkas Hi Mike, This is a forum for the Northumbrian Pipes and the traditional music of the north east, and as such is often very interesting and informative. It helps us all to work on playing the pipes well and to figure out how we can improve our playing in the Northumbrian tradition. But please don't ask the northerners how we should play tunes in our own area! We can be proud of our own tradition here, which is rich and thriving even if we don't shout quite so loud. Let the northerners do the ranting, we can enjoy playing them however we like. Wasn't Halsway great as always? All the best, Paul Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:23:19 + To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu From: mikeande...@worcesterfolk.org.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Tune Phrasing / Rants / Reels / Polkas So we've had a long discussion about rants, reels, polkas. I'm sure that those resident in the North-East should continue to play these tunes with a good traditional rant rhythm. What about those pipers like me, resident in the far south ? Some of the tunes we play on the pipes (Salmontails, Winster Gallop for instance) are common across the whole country, and are played as polkas hereabouts. When I introduce some other North Eastern tunes, even if I had the ability to ensure they started as rants, the other mujsicians around me would probably turn them into polkas. Yet tunes have always historically drifted across the country, into Ireland and Scotland and back, etc such than you often can't tell where they started ! It also begs the question as to whether, as a southerner, I should be trying to play them as rants at all ! Mike To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Beyond Hotmail see what else you can do with Windows Live. [1]Find out more! -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665375/direct/01/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1996 - Release Date: 03/11/09 20:42:00
[NSP] Spelling of names
Hi, With reference to the variable spelling of names, there is a (possibly relevant) example of this in Roxby's Lay of the Redewater Minstrel published in 1809 at Newcastle. In a footnote on p.26 in relation to Elishaw he writes: Here was the rendezvous of the vagrant train of faa's, tinklers, c. The celebrated Wull Allen frequently sojourned here, in the progress of his fishing and otter-hunting expeditions; and here often resounded the drones of his no less celebrated son, Jamie Allan, the Northumberland piper. It is believed that Roxby was a frequent visitor to Elishaw and personally knew the people of whom he wrote. It is interesting to see, in the same footnote, the different spelling of the surname of father and son. It is also possible, perhaps, that the use of the name 'Wull' reflects a phonetic spelling of the actual pronunciation used by man himself. Richard Original Message From: phi...@gruar.clara.net Date: 12/03/2009 19:30 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subj: [NSP] Re: J Allen (and Rants) Irrespective of the origin and age of the tune, surely - as anyone who has done any research into family history knows - the spelling of names in the 18th and early 19th century was subject to almost infinite variation (and how many spellings are there for Shakespeare??) so - when James, Jem, Jemy, Jemmy, Jamie, Jim, Jimmy, Jimmie, Allen, Allan, Alan gave his name orally to someone who then wrote it down, the clerk may have (aurally?) heard the name correctly and used any number of spellings to write it down. I suppose the question hangs on what spelling Allen himself used when (and if) he wrote it. A couple of generations before him, his family certainly wouldn't have been literate, and would neither know nor care about the spelling. The way it is spelt in the published Life is probably just a snapshot of one time in the name's life. More relevant may be how Allen's family said it - what accent, and did they use a more or less Scottish pronunciation? Does it matter, or is it a question of rival nationalisms either side the Border? Just a thought from Philip (often mispelled Phillip - preferably not Phil, and certainly not Pip if you don't mind) Gruar - whose not very distant ancestor, a tenant farmer on the Highland Line at the time J. Allen was around, was spelt at different times Gruar, Gruer, Grewar and Growar. Now - Rants. I can theorise endlessly about the precise relative length of paired quavers in baroque music, but I'm not a particularly good piper, and don't live in the centre of The Tradition. For the benefit of those reading this who live completely outside it, could experts please confirm if I'm right that in Rant playing the quavers are very *slightly* uneven, but not as dotted as in a hornpipe, and giving a heavier feel than in a reel, because in a reel you feel two minim (half-note) beats in a bar - each beat made of four equal quavers (quarter-notes). In Rants and Hornpipes it's definitely four crotchet (quarter note) beats to the bar, each beat normally consisting of two uneven quavers, but in a hornpipe the first quaver is strongly accented and lengthened, and the second one is very light and short. The rant gives much more equal weight to the two quavers. Is this easier to understand than tomato soup and gobstoppers, or am I talking through my hat? Oh, and welcome to the list Anthony, it's great to have your contributions. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Fancy a job? - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/jobs/ __
