[NSP] Re: nps
A lot of sense in there Barry. It's easy to forget, if one is struggling with the intricacies of technique, that a relatively uninformed listener will not actually give a hoot about closed or open fingering, but *will* respond to musicality on a macro-level. I have seen in more than one context that an obsession with the 'right' way of doing things on a micro-level can go hand in hand with a startling ignorance of general musicianship, as well as an unpleasant tendency to rubbish those of different persuasions in an attempt to mask a deeply felt insecurity. We all need each other to help each other see the parts of the picture that we don't see because of our individual limitations. Evangelists of all kinds can often be 'right', but usually only about the tiny bit of the picture that they know. There's a bigger picture that we can only see between us, which is why we appear to be more than one person, though actually we're not. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] no warranty
oops guarranttee or so To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: nps
Hi all, I seem to be missing out on some of the posts on this subject. However, futher to the Fenwick gracing advice I've checked the 1931 reprint as well as my 1974 edition and it has the following words below the section on stacccato; The learner should note that the staccato style of playing should not be overdone. Excessive cutting of the notes though at times lending a meretricious brilliance to a performance, is not in accordance with good small-pipe style It is interesting that this was left out of the '74 reprint. Cheers, Dave Dave Shaw, Northumbrian and Scottish Smallpipes, Irish Pipes and SHAW Whistles www.daveshaw.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: nps
The learner should note that the staccato style of playing should not be overdone. Excessive cutting of the notes though at times lending a meretricious brilliance to a performance, is not in accordance with good small-pipe style It is interesting that this was left out of the '74 reprint. Very interesting. It would seem that some authorities are more authoritative than others. Oink, oink. Chirs -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: nps
James Galway playing tin whistle used to be alarming, though the Chieftains taught him a better, more fluid, style subsequently. Only heard him doing so once and this was back in the early Cretaceous or thereabouts. Your description of the better style as more fluid suggests that he fell into the same trap as classical violinist when presented with a folk tune - they tend to play in a clipped martelé fashion (more suited to, say, Vivaldi or Mozart, their differences nothwithstanding) rather than letting it roll. This might be similar to the kind of overdone staccato that the unexpurgated Fenwick was warning against. The much maligned Kathryn Tickell is a model of fluidity (but can shell peas with the best of them when she so chooses). c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: nps
Very interesting. It would seem that some authorities are more authoritative than others. Oink, oink. Chirs -- Oink, oink So you're aligning yourself with those that are MORE authoritative, then? ;-) Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Fenwick
That passage describing and naming ornaments was clearly lifted from 'classical' tutors for other instruments. It does not discuss how these ornaments might be fingered, for example. Have you - has anyone - had Fenwick - ever heard a turned shake on the NSP? The description of staccato is redundant in the context of closed fingering, the technique recommended elsewhere in the book. It would be fun to see what source was being plagiarised here. So we don't always have to believe fallible Fenwick? As i've said before, a problem is the misuse of staccato to mean short. It doesn't. It means detached/separated, as all notes must be (except of course the components of a mordant or shake, which would sound silly if detached). It's interesting that Fenwick distinguishes (like some contemporary pipers) between simply separate (non-legato), short and very short. Oops, I said I wasn't going to get involved this time round. But I agree with Dave Shaw. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: nps
James Galway playing tin whistle used to be alarming, though the Chieftains taught him a better, more fluid, style subsequently. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 28 April 2009 09:46 To: gibbonssoi...@aol.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: nps Maybe your violin teacher was teaching you classical style along with the good basic violin technique, and the classical style was impeding your traditional style. I don't think so, but there's no way of knowing. I've never claimed to be a good player of anything (I would describe myself as a devoted and conscientious dabbler), but I do claim stylistic awareness. Give your average classical violinist a folk tune and the results can be bizarre in the extreme. It also amuses me to hear classical singers trying to sing pop/rock songs without changing their style/technique. A certain Peter Hofmann [1]http://www.peterhofmann.com/index-lebensweg.html used to sing rock classics in exactly the same way as he sang Wagner - dreadful. I have, in my day, sung traditional ballads, classical music (baritone), early music (countertenor), pop rock, blues rock, progrock and even country (backing vox only - I don't really like country, but being with a band was fun at the time) without being good, but without having any complaints about lack of stylistic awareness either. The person who disapproved of my improved technique was capable of being dismissive of, for example, Stephane Grappelly as well as the entire classical establishment. and indeed of anything too sophisticated, including Genesis, Gentle Giant and Steely Dan q.v. Two styles can be inconsistent. Doing one well might well mean doing the other badly. A classical violinist might try to play quavers equal, others such as a baroque violinist - or Willy Taylor - definitely wouldn't. Yup, I've played baroque and classical too - under some pretty good conductors such as Jaap Schroeder, Hans-Martin Linde and Guy van Waas (with the latter of whom I am performing (on viola) both Vivaldi and Haydn this very evening (concertos from Estro Armonico and Schoepfung (Creation) respectively - unfortunately on modern instruments). But with the nsp, all good players, including Kathryn Tickell and Billy Pigg, have (have had) a largely detached technique, and crux of the argument is a stylistic point as to whether a 'good style' can include open-fingered ornament. If Chris and Adrian are at the 'wee free' end of the spectrum, all good players are some sort of protestant at least. I'm glad you agree Kathryn and Billy were good players. The justification for the 'wee free' position is that if you allow open fingering in some contexts but not others, then bad players (they exist) will take these contentious elements as the basis of their 'style' and ignore the closed-fingered basic technique. The bad players probably don't give much consideration at all to what they are doing (this is why they are bad) and as such are hardly of much relevance. let them get on with it. there are bad players of all instruments. If religious analogies are felt inappropriate in this forum, try the Judaean People's Liberation Front instead! I do hope you mean the People's Liberation Front of Judaea! Chirs -- References 1. http://www.peterhofmann.com/index-lebensweg.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: nps
Whilst Fenwickdescribes gracenotes he does not say that one should step outside the closed fingering rule he has already set out in order to play them. Many Northumbrian pipers grace within the closed fingeringeven those shakes sound better closed! Ian Dave Shaw wrote: Adrian wishes to use the Fenwick tutor as his bible to prove that only plain closed fingering is admissible. Between the music reading and tunes section of this book, however, there is written the following: (see) http://www.daveshaw.co.uk/Fenwick/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: nps
I come out with this one a few times every year on this subject. :) Does no harm to repeat it again as, for me, it puts things into perspective. More years ago than I care to remember, there was an excellent TV documentary in which the classical violinist Yehudi Menuhin met with an old Shetland fiddler (can't remember his name, sorry - big tall chap with receding hair and a winning smile and twinkle in his eyes - I think he was in his 80s then) and they discussed the instrument and played each others favourite tunes etc. Interestingly, the Shetland fiddler was able to play classical quite well but poor Yehudi had a terrible time getting any life into the traditional tunes at all (very precise and mechanical) the fiddler was very patient with him but it looked like a master teaching a novice. Same instrument but what a difference. many of the nuances for the fiddling were, of course, no-no's for Yehudi. Nobody could possibly claim that these two were not masters of the violin but both styles and interpretation of the dots were very different as was their method of playing (vibrato, bowing etc). This discussion does remind me of it each time it comes around. Colin Hill From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu To: j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk; gibbonssoi...@aol.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:43 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: nps James Galway playing tin whistle used to be alarming, though the Chieftains taught him a better, more fluid, style subsequently. Only heard him doing so once and this was back in the early Cretaceous or thereabouts. Your description of the better style as more fluid suggests that he fell into the same trap as classical violinist when presented with a folk tune - they tend to play in a clipped martelé fashion (more suited to, say, Vivaldi or Mozart, their differences nothwithstanding) rather than letting it roll. This might be similar to the kind of overdone staccato that the unexpurgated Fenwick was warning against. The much maligned Kathryn Tickell is a model of fluidity (but can shell peas with the best of them when she so chooses). c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] nsp
More years ago than I care to remember, there was an excellent TV documentary in which the classical violinist Yehudi Menuhin met with an old Shetland fiddler (can't remember his name, sorry - big tall chap with receding hair and a winning smile and twinkle in his eyes - I think he was in his 80s then) and they discussed the instrument and played each others favourite tunes etc. Hi folks, it was the great Dr. Tom ANderson of Eshaness. Sir Yehudi once visited us unexpectedly when I was an undergraduate at Queens College, Dundee. He gave a brilliant afternoon concert at the Student`s Union. We asked him to play some Scots music, when he smiled wryly and said, I am useless at Scots music. I cannot play the snap, you see ! It would appear that afte r struggling with the finer points of Shetland music, he had gone on to meet my second cousin, Kenny Wilson - also a brilliant Hardanger player - in the Borders just before playing at the Usher Hall. As my cousin told me many years later:- He cudna get the snap ava Unfortunately in those days, I was not musically active, although I organised the student`s concerts from my wee room up in The Halls of Residence in Airlie Place. Cheers now Ina -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
